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Your face saving does not detract from the fact that you left out the portions were Kemp was talking about an indigenous component. The same indigenous component you claim he was reluctant to admit. So why did you conveniently leave it out? How does this compare to Yurco lies?

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Originally posted by Carlos Oliver Coke:
Uh, reread the text. He clearly is reluctant to accept the term 'indigenous African'.

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Those three lines are meaningless, and in no way shape or form detract or add to Kemp's views on the matter.

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Kemp is not talking like someone who is deliberately spreading misinformation or someone who is biased as compared to his colleagues. The reverse could be argued to be the case given his treatment of the skeletal data in his book. Carlos Coke has given him many opportunities to incriminate himself on record and, from memory, this is all Carlos Coke has to show re: Kemp's comments on the indigenousness of the ethnic Egyptians.

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I visited the British Library and was
able to get hold of Qubbet el Hawa und Elephantine: Zur Bevolkerungsgeschichte von Agypten? by FW Rösing, whose dendograms feature in your book. Although most of it is in German, there was some very interesting content in English, which indicated that Nubians and Predynastic Egyptians both came from the same population. Here's a quote from the page I've attached to this e-mail:

"The dendograms for male and female groups with 10 and 14 measurements primarily reproduce the geographic differentiation (Abb. 130 to 133). Single samples sometimes occupy a distant position, but in general the samples from one region are found in one common cluster. It is important to note that Egyptian and Nubian groups are practically not separated; there are large mixed clusters, and those clusters which are dominated by one of these countries are closely similar. This is a first indication that former statements in favour of a stronger separation might be explained by too limited a geographic scope. Predynastic Egyptians join Nubians or composite Egyptian/Nubian clusters, but not predominantly historic Egyptian clusters. The groups of both countries are quite distinct from all other regions. Among them north Arabia and Asia are not well defined, whereas the groups from eastern Africa, Greece and north-western Africa are more often found in a common cluster. Thus, in general, geographic distribution influences the dendograms, temporal and social influence is of only secondary importance. - Theoretically any group affinity assessment includes stochastic effects. For this reason a pooling of local samples into 14 regional taxa had been performed in order to deduce taxonomic statements. The four Egyptian and Nubian taxa join each other above the 99.9% similarity level - so they belong to one morphologically homogeneous population (Abb.134) (p226)."

I also re-read the following in your book, Anatomy of a Civilization:

"In the south, the material culture of Nagada had much more in common with that of northern Nubia, its neighbour, and the peoples of the two areas were closely similar at the skeletal level" (p89).

I wondered if, well as "closely similar", it would have been even more illuminating to have quoted "above the 99.9% similarity level" and included the finding that Predynastic Egyptians and Nubians belonged "to one morphologically homogeneous population."

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You cite the Elephantine data. Yes, they demonstrate the expected similarity that adjacent populations have the world over.

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This is a bullshit concession. They weren't morphologically close because they were neighbours; they were morphologically close because they both descend from the same root population. And this similarity was not at all "expected" to academics; they have gone to great lengths to find evidence for a break in morphological continuity along the Egypto-Nubian border. Some have even went as far as using dynastic Egyptian political policies as "evidence" for the existence of racial tensions, re: Amenemhat closed the border to Nubians because he hated them. Which brings us to another point which Kemp loves to ignore: any deviation on the part of later Egyptians is due to a departure from this common ancestral type. He tries to promote the later, derived Egyptian types as the biologically quintessential Ancient Egyptian by implying that populations who retained similarities to the proto Egyptians (i.e. the Elephantine population) owe their similarity to other Africans because they were in close contact with Nubians.”

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Right. And what about Kemp's statement that modern Egyptians are the best proxy for what the Ancients looked like? What Rosung actually says couldn't be more different. I also can't help but notice that he's been tampering with the dendrograms. It may be that you've missed some pages, but the dendrograms aren't exact reproductions. In particular the tendency of the majority of the north Africans to cluster with the Greek and Anatolian samples in Rosung (p192, p193) is totally absent from the Kemp dendrograms. I'm just speculating here but I wonder if this has something to do with Kemp wanting the suppress the inevitable conclusion that the whole of north Africa underwent drastic demographic changes which made it into what it is today. The fact that one of his other dendrograms (which also appears to be absent from Rosung) pools the dynastic Egyptian samples and clusters it with modern Egyptians makes it all the more suspect. I'm talking about this dendrogram:

I wonder whether he even consulted an expert to re-make those dendrograms. To do what he did he'd have to process all the measurements from all these studies Rosung referenced in p181-183 and construct new dendrograms. Since I don't recall him mentioning something to this effect (to the contrary: he just passively directs his readers to Rosung) I wonder whether he just cooked it all up while basing it loosely on Rosung's data.

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I now see that the dendrogram mentioned above are in fact faithful reproductions of one of Rosung's dendrograms on p209 and p202. Glad that didn't turn out to be what I thought it was.

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Why do you change the subject when you're held accountable for your tampering with Kemp's PMs, Yurco the 2nd? And what does the fact that you were caught red handed in the act of tempering, say about the credibility of your other so-called email conversations?

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Give me the emails addresses of the academics you're contacting. You were boastful about your willingness to do that earlier, right? So, let's do it. I want to know how they feel about the epic contrast between your attempts to claim high moral ground and your tampering when you think no one is looking. I also want to know what they think about the way you're shamelessly trying to excuse your foul behavior.

Or are you scared?

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We'll then post their replies here on Egyptsearch.

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Let's see if they agree that it's slander or not, and whether you stand a chance in the academic world in light of your tampering.

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How ironic that the same person who took the Yurco incident so personal, has been caught red-handed doing a Yurco himself. SMH. He used the Yurco incident in his conversation with academics. Funny how when Yurco intentionally spreads misinformation, it's "racist", "morally deplorable", "depraved", "nefarious", etc. but when Carlos does it, it's "oh, but he was already reluctant"?

WTF? Somebody pinch my arm...

And I think you've got it twisted Yurco the 2nd. I don't need your permission, to contact them. I'm definitely contacting them, with or without your approval.

But would you mind if I post their replies here and in any further threads/articles I make about your creepy behind-the-scenes schemes?

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But would you mind if I post their replies here and in any future threads/articles I make about your creepy behind-the-scenes schemes

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Originally posted by Carlos Oliver Coke:
Sidney Anson talks about pathological investment in lying.....

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Originally posted by tropicals redacted:

Could you comment on the Nubians and
Egyptians being depicted as virtually
the same in the tomb of Ramesses III?

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The Book of Gates scene in the tomb of Ramses III is unique. There is no other example that I have seen where a group of male Egyptians are depicted in a scene with Kushites and the Egyptians are wearing Kushite clothes.

To say that Egyptians males wore such clothes would be to ignore all other Egyptian art



Egyptians depicted in the tomb of Seti I

__________________

Kushite (Nubian) depicted in the tomb of Seti I,
(dark figure with diagonal sash across chest and around waist and hanging down off waist)

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Men dressed as Kushites marked with glyphs normally associated with Egyptians in the tomb of Ramess III , Book of Gates scene

It's dishonest and looks desparte to take a unique anomaly, people dressed as distinclty as Kushites but marked with glyphs associated with Egyptias, present it as representative and ignore the other art of which there are no other examples of this.
There is good chance that is an error of the Egyptian artisans. Egyptologists have noted other occasional errors in the tombs made by the scribes or artists. And once these tombs were sealed, it's not like today where the tombs are open and people are constantly able to see it and notice discrepancies.

So if you are going to approach a professor on the ethnicity of the Egyptian use something common not a unique anomoly. Otherwise it's manipulation

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Men wearing Nubian clothing but marked with glyphs normally associated with Egyptians, Temple of Ramses, Book of Gates scene

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB] "To say that Egyptians males wore such clothes would be to ignore all other Egyptian art" LOL

Many other cultural affinities can be given.

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^^ that is a bit similar



^^ However we can see the difference here >>




Sometimes the Egyptians depict a Pharaoh as pitch black when they are personifying a Pharaoh personifying Osiris. However that is symbolic because when you look at other paintings of them the pharaoh is depicted as brown. However here we are looking at a tile of a Kushite enemy. Notably he is not personifying Osiris yet is

depicted pitch black
has hoop earrings
red dyed hair (or hat)
collar has large dot pattern

And if you compare it to the photo at top of the painting in Ramses III, it's a very close match

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So the labeling of the figures at top from Ramses III's temple is likely an error by the Egyptian artisans.

My point is don't select a very unique image/text situation that could easily be an error to form a generalization.

If you want to see if in the Egyptian art if the Egyptians looked like Nubians then compare more typical art

If you don't want to to an honest assessment looking at a lot of art and just want to do propaganda then select only those pictures which support your agenda and you will be able to find some overlap. Obviously that would be expected since Egypt and Nubia were neighbors

This thread is specifically about the Book of Gates in the Temple of Ramses III not about general cultural affinities between Egypt and Nubia which exist

Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

Men wearing Nubian clothing but marked with glyphs normally associated with Egyptians, Temple of Ramses, Book of Gates scene

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
[QB] "To say that Egyptians males wore such clothes would be to ignore all other Egyptian art" LOL

Many other cultural affinities can be given.

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^^ that is a bit similar



^^ However we can see the difference here >>




Sometimes the Egyptians depict a Pharaoh as pitch black when they are personifying a Pharaoh personifying Osiris. However that is symbolic because when you look at other paintings of them the pharaoh is depicted as brown. However here we are looking at a tile of a Kushite enemy. Notably he is not personifying Osiris yet is

depicted pitch black
has hoop earrings
red dyed hair (or hat)
collar has large dot pattern

And if you compare it to the photo at top of the painting in Ramses III, it's a very close match

_______________________________

So the labeling of the figures at top from Ramses III's temple is likely an error by the Egyptian artisans.

My point is don't select a very unique image/text situation that could easily be an error to form a generalization.

If you want to see if in the Egyptian art if the Egyptians looked like Nubians then compare more typical art

If you don't want to to an honest assessment looking at a lot of art and just want to do propaganda then select only those pictures which support your agenda and you will be able to find some overlap. Obviously that would be expected since Egypt and Nubia were neighbors

This thread is specifically about the Book of Gates in the Temple of Ramses III not about general cultural affinities between Egypt and Nubia which exist

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It all depends on the dynasties. We are speaking of thousands of years. Even in todays fashion we see differences over a short time.

And nobody is pitch black like that. It has a symbolic meaning.


Most Africans are within the range of the image below.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by alTakruri:


In another tomb -- KV17m -- there's also a pastiche Tjemehhu-Aamu

individual and textual errors right nearby this "hybrid" substituting and conflating passages about the protective netjer and creation of the two
and prematurely introducing text from the next vignette "TimeKeepers." [/QB]

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


^ the color here is not symbolic. It might be a little exageratted but many people in Sudan are very dark brown nearly black.
So the Egyptians stereotyped it as pitch black in many cases (brown Nubians in other cases)

,









This thread is about the Herd of Ra from the Book of Gates scenes and who is depicted in the Ramses III Temple

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You're dumb, none of them is as "black" as that depiction. They all are deep brown complected. "rich brown". You are making up lunatic shyt as usual.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged |