posted
Eurocentrics claim that this word doesn't actually mean black even though it's been translated as such by Oxford and other esteemed institutions.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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Herodotus, for example, referred to the Egyptians as melanchroes. That term is sometimes translated as “black-skinned,” but Herodotus typically used a different word to describe people from further south in Africa, suggesting that “dark-skinned” is more appropriate. Source:http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/explainer/2014/12/ridley_scott_s_exodus_were_ancient_egyptians_white_black_or_brown.html
Several Ancient Greek historians noted that Egyptians and Ethiopians were black or dark skinned,[94] with woolly hair,[95] which became one of the most popular and controversial arguments for this theory. The Greek word used is “melanchroes”. While scholars such as Diop, Selincourt and George Rawlinson translate the Greek word "melanchroes" as "black", Najovits states that "Dark-skinned is the usual translation of the original Greek melanchroes"[96] and he is followed by A.D. Godley and Alan B. Lloyd.
Afrocentric misreadings of classical texts
The meaning of melas and melanochroes
In their efforts to paint the ancient Egyptians "black," Afrocentrists rely heavily on misreadings of ancient Greek and Roman literature – many of which stem from a severe misunderstanding of the historical use of color terms. In many ages and many cultures, descriptions of human complexion as "white," "brown" or "black" would correspond in modern usage to "fair," "tan" or "swarthy." According to the anthropologist Peter Frost (*):
This older, more relative sense has been noted in other culture areas. The Japanese once used the terms shiroi (white) and kuroi (black) to describe their skin and its gradations of color. The Ibos of Nigeria employed ocha (white) and ojii (black) in the same way, so that nwoko ocha (white man) simply meant an Ibo with a lighter complexion. In French Canada, the older generation still refers to a swarthy Canadien as noir. Vestiges of this older usage persist in family names. Mr. White, Mr. Brown, and Mr. Black were individuals within the normal color spectrum of English people. Ditto for Leblanc, Lebrun, and Lenoir among the French or Weiss and Schwartz among the Germans.
In the same vein, the Greek words melas and leukos when applied to skin color were usually equivalent to "swarthy" and "fair" rather than the racial terms "black" or "white" as Afrocentrists would prefer (see definition of melas in the online LSJ lexicon). There are numerous examples of this usage in Greek literature – one unequivocal example describes an aged Odysseus magically regaining his youth (Homer Odyssey 16.172-176):
With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroiês], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin.
In describing the skin tone of Odysseus, Homer used the word melanchroiês – a form of the same word that other Greeks sometimes chose to describe Egyptians, and one that is the source of much Afrocentric misunderstanding. If taken literally, the word would mean "black-skinned"; however, it is clear from the context that Homer means "of swarthy complexion" rather than racially "black," and intends to describe Odysseus regaining his youthful color. Otherwise we would have to assume that during the process of rejuvenation Odysseus transformed into a black African! This despite the numerous ancient artistic portrayals of Odysseus as Greek-looking and certainly not "black" in any modern racial sense.
Likewise, when the ancient writers described Egyptians as melas or melanchroes, they almost surely meant "dark-complected" rather than literally "black." Any ambiguity in such descriptions can be resolved by noting that other classical writers such as Manilius specifically identified the Egyptians as medium in complexion rather than "black," and that the Egyptians portrayed themselves as lighter and finer-featured than their African neighbors to the south. ]http://www.geocities.com/enbp/quotes.html
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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Apparently most scholars understand melanchroes to mean black and not merely swarthy or dark-skinned. The person that derided Afrocentrics in that article even admits that melanchroes literally means black, so I don't understand why he is engaging in such distracting semantics.
Virtually all of the early Latin eyewitnesses described the ancient Egyptians as black-skinned with woolly hair. Several ancient Greek historians noted that Egyptians and Ethiopians had complexions that were “melanchroes,” which most scholars translate as black, while some scholars translate it as “dark” or “dark skinned.”
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"Too black a hue as an Egyptian or Ethiopian(Nubian) marks a coward--so too, too white a hue as with women. The best color is the intermediate tawny color of the lion. That color marks for courage".
Aristotle, PHYSOGNOMICA
That more or less clinches it.
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posted
The root of melanchroes means 'jet-black'. But people generally aren't going to leave it at that because they feel that the Greeks objected to the idea that the modal skin pigmentation of the AE, Colchians etc. was literally 'melas' or RBG #000000.
Even though the modal AE skin pigmentation level was neither of these in the minds of the Greeks, there are always going to be ideologues on both sides who insist that melas (as used in reference to AE skin complexion) should be translated to modern racialized terminology/concepts that describes RBG #000000 or RBG #FAE88A ('swarthy').
For this reason, I see this issue (i.e., the meaning of 'melas' and its derivatives) as a giant red herring and the playground of liars. Thread carefully is all I have to say to those who are caught in the crossfire.
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: "Too black a hue as an Egyptian or Ethiopian(Nubian) marks a coward--so too, too white a hue as with women. The best color is the intermediate tawny color of the lion. That color marks for courage".
Aristotle, PHYSOGNOMICA
That more or less clinches it.
Some people doubt Aristotle wrote that ancient text, but it is nonetheless authentically ancient Greek (thereby it is known as a pseudo-Aristotlean text). But I agree that, regardless of how one interprets "melanchroes", the perception that Egyptians of the time belonged to a "dark skin" category comparable to the Sudanese of the time is telling. Not that the Greeks would have worked with our latter-day racial constructs, but it is an intriguing look in the similarities and differences they perceived between certain peoples.
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: "Too black a hue as an Egyptian or Ethiopian(Nubian) marks a coward--so too, too white a hue as with women. The best color is the intermediate tawny color of the lion. That color marks for courage".
Aristotle, PHYSOGNOMICA
That more or less clinches it.
Aristotle "clinches" it? How about these?
Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations…” (Aristotle, Problemata_ 909, 7)
Dialogue: Lycinus (describing an Egyptian): ‘this boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin…his hair worn in a plait shows that he is not a freeman.’ Timolaus: ‘but that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus. All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood…’ (Lucian, _Navigations_, paras 2-3)
Dialogue: “Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and called it Egypt after himself” (Apollodorus, Book II, paras 3 and 4)
Dialogue: Danaos (describing the Aegyptiads): ‘I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics.’ (Aeschylus, _The Suppliants_, vv. 719-20, 745)
“…the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny desiccated look.” (Ammianus Marcellinus, Book XXII para 16) Ibn Qutayba (828-89) wrote: Wahb ibn Nunabbih said: Ham the son of Noah was a white man, with a handsome face and a fine figure, and Almighty God changed his color and the color of his descendants in response to his father’s curse. He went away, followed by his sons, and they settled by the shore, where God increased and multiplied them. They are the blacks. …Some of his children went to the West. Ham begat Kush ibn Ham, Kan`an ibn Ham, and Fut ibn Ham. Fut settled in India and Sind and their inhabitants are his descendants. Kush and Kan`an’s descendants are the various races of blacks: Nubians, Zanj, Qaran, Zaghawa, Ethiopians, Copts, and Berbers. (Kitab al-Ma`arif, ed. Tharwat `Ukasha, 2nd ed., Cairo, 1969, p. 26)
“For the fact is as I soon came to realise myself, and then heard from others later, that the Colchians are obviously Egyptian. When the notion occurred to me, I asked both the Colchians and the Egyptians about it, and found that the Colchians had better recall of the Egyptians than the Egyptians did of them. Some Egyptians said that they thought the Colchians originated with Sesostris’ army, but I myself guessed their Egyptian origin not only because the Colchians are dark-skinned and curly-haired (which does not count for much by itself , because these features are common in others too) but more importantly because Colchians, Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only peoples in the world who practise circumcision and who have always done so."
Source, The histories By Herodotus, Robin Waterfield, Carolyn Dewald
Even Manilius who is frequently quoted to prove the Egyptians were distinct from Africans said that they were less(a KEY word) sun-burt than the Aethiopians, not that they weren't sun-burnt at all. And if you've seen some of the ethnic groups of Central and Southern Sudan("Aethiopia") you'd see why Manilius said they "stain the world in darkness".
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The ancient Greeks helped birth 'our' constructs. Only the last 40 years had black come to mean the Bla k American s and their West African parents.
Dictionaries of the English language still don't know only American Negroes are black.
US Englishblack Definition of black in English:
black Top 1000 frequently used words Pronunciation: /blak/ ADJECTIVE
1Of the very darkest color owing to the absence of or complete absorption of light; the opposite of white: black smoke her hair was black More example sentences 1.1(Of the sky or night) completely dark owing to nonvisibility of the sun, moon, or stars: the sky was moonless and black More example sentences Synonyms 1.2Deeply stained with dirt: his clothes were absolutely black More example sentences 1.3(Of a plant or animal) dark in color as distinguished from a lighter variety: Japanese black pine More example sentences 1.4(Of coffee or tea) served without milk or cream. Example sentences 1.5Of or denoting the suits spades and clubs in a deck of cards. Example sentences 1.6(Of a ski run) of the highest level of difficulty, as indicated by black markers positioned along it. Example sentences 2 (also Black) Of any human group having dark-colored skin, especially of African or Australian Aboriginal ancestry: black adolescents of Jamaican descent More example sentences 2.1Relating to black people: black culture More example sentences 3(Of a period of time or situation) characterized by tragic or disastrous events; causing despair or pessimism: five thousand men were killed on the blackest day of the war the future looks black for those of us interested in freedom More example sentences Synonyms 3.1(Of a person’s state of mind) full of gloom or misery; very depressed: Jean had disappeared and Mary was in a black mood More example sentences Synonyms 3.2(Of humor) presenting tragic or harrowing situations in comic terms: “Good place to bury the bodies,” she joked with black humor More example sentences Synonyms 3.3Full of anger or hatred: Roger shot her a black look More example sentences Synonyms 3.4 archaic Very evil or wicked: my soul is steeped in the blackest sin Synonyms NOUN
1Black color or pigment: a tray decorated in black and green a series of paintings done only in grays and blacks More example sentences 1.1Black clothes or material, often worn as a sign of mourning: dressed in the black of widowhood More example sentences 1.2Darkness, especially of night or an overcast sky: the only thing visible in the black was the light of the lantern More example sentences 1.3 (often Black) The player of the black pieces in chess or checkers. Example sentences 1.4A black thing, especially a ball or piece in a game. Example sentences 2 (also Black) A member of a dark-skinned people, especially one of African or Australian Aboriginal ancestry: a coalition of blacks and whites against violence More example sentences 3 (the black) The situation of not owing money to a bank or of making a profit in a business operation: the company just managed to stay in the black I managed to break even in the first six months—quite a short time for a small business to get into the black From the conventional use of black ink to indicate credit items More example sentences Synonyms VERB
[WITH OBJECT] 1Make black, especially by the application of black polish: blacking the prize bull’s hooves More example sentences 1.1Make (one’s face, hands, and other visible parts of one’s body) black with polish or makeup, so as not to be seen at night or, especially formerly, to play the role of a black person in a musical show, play, or movie: white extras blacking up their faces to play Ethiopians More example sentences Usage
Black, designating Americans of African heritage, became the most widely used and accepted term in the 1960s and 1970s, replacing Negro. It is not usually capitalized: black Americans. Through the 1980s, the more formal African American replaced black in much usage, but both are now generally acceptable. Afro-American, first recorded in the 19th century and popular in the 1960s and 1970s, is now heard mostly in anthropological and cultural contexts. Colored people, common in the early part of the 20th century, is now usually regarded as offensive, although the phrase survives in the full name of the NAACP, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. An inversion, people of color, has gained some favor, but is also used in reference to other nonwhite ethnic groups: a gathering spot for African Americans and other people of color interested in reading about their cultures. See also colored (usage) and person of color.
Phrases
1 black someone's eye Hit someone in the eye so as to cause bruising. Example sentences 2 look on the black side informal View a situation pessimistically. Example sentences 3 men in black Pronunciation: /ˌmen in ˈblak/ informal Anonymous dark-clothed men who supposedly visit people who have reported an encounter with a UFO or an alien in order to prevent their publicizing it. Example sentences 4 the new black A color that is currently so popular that it rivals the traditional status of black as the most reliably fashionable color: brown is the new black this season More example sentences 4.1Something that is suddenly extremely popular or fashionable: retro sci-fi is the new black More example sentences 5 not as black as one is painted informal Not as bad as one is said to be. Example sentences Phrasal verbs
1 black out (Of a person) undergo a sudden and temporary loss of consciousness: they knocked me around and I blacked out More example sentences Synonyms 2 black something out 1 (usually be blacked out) Extinguish all lights or completely cover windows, especially for protection against an air attack or in order to provide darkness in which to show a movie: the bombers began to come nightly and the city was blacked out More example sentences 1.1Subject a place to an electricity failure: Chicago was blacked out yesterday after a freak flood More example sentences 2Obscure something completely so that it cannot be read or seen: the license plate had been blacked out with masking tape More example sentences 2.1(Of a television company) suppress the broadcast of a program: they blacked out the women’s finals on local television More example sentences Derivatives
blackish Pronunciation: /ˈblakiSH/ ADJECTIVE Example sentences blackly Pronunciation: /ˈblaklē/ ADVERB Example sentences Origin
British & World English dictionary English synonyms US English synonyms What do you find interesting about this word or phrase?
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posted
Isnt the same argument made about Josephus's Jesus
“At that time also there appeared a certain man of magic power … if it be meet to call him a man, [whose name is Jesus], whom [certain] Greeks call a son of [a] God, but his disciples [call] the true prophet who is supposed to have raised dead persons and to have cured all diseases. Both his nature and his form were human, for he was a man of simple appearance, mature age, black-skinned (melagchrous), short growth, three cubits tall, hunchbacked, prognathous (lit. ‘with a long face [macroprosopos]), a long nose, eyebrows meeting above the nose, that the spectators could take fright, with scanty [curly] hair, but having a line in the middle of the head after the fashion of the Nazaraeans, with an undeveloped beard. (*Halōsis, ii.174).”[4]
Posts: 1257 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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The Jesus quote above me is commonly quoted by commentators who post "such and such were black" trivia. But the Josephus quote doesn't seem to exist. Which means, what? See my previous post. Playground of liars. Somebody is playing dirty as usual when certain interests get involved. Let's see which camp it is this time; Euronuts or unsavory elements within the "such and such was black" camp.
What seems to be the same text is quoted below. It has the same general structure but with parts that have been translated differently, as well as an attribution to a different author:
quote:"There appeared in these our days a man, of the Jewish Nation, of great virtue, named Yeshua [Jesus], who is yet living among us, and of the Gentiles is accepted for a Prophet of truth, but His own disciples call Him the Son of God- He raiseth the dead and cureth all manner of diseases. A man of stature somewhat tall, and comely, with very reverent countenance, such as the beholders may both love and fear, his hair of (the colour of) the chestnut, full ripe, plain to His ears, whence downwards it is more orient and curling and wavering about His shoulders. In the midst of His head is a seam or partition in His hair, after the manner of the Nazarenes. His forehead plain and very delicate; His face without spot or wrinkle, beautified with a lovely red; His nose and mouth so formed as nothing can be reprehended; His beard thickish, in colour like His hair, not very long, but forked; His look innocent and mature; His eyes grey, clear, and quick- In reproving hypocrisy He is terrible; in admonishing, courteous and fair spoken; pleasant in conversation, mixed with gravity. It cannot be remembered that any have seen Him Laugh, but many have seen Him Weep. In proportion of body, most excellent; His hands and arms delicate to behold. In speaking, very temperate, modest, and wise. A man, for His singular beauty, surpassing the children of men"
EDIT: I speculated that the red facial complexion mentioned in the English translations of this text could have been a translation of "melanchroes", but there is no support for this in older texts. Although it could still be in the earlier Greek text, there is little basis to entertain this given the fact that the dubious Josephus quote is the only one I see claiming this and it seems to be a mess.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I recall this from Rogers but never checked it out. Seems the Slavonic text Halosis as cited by 42 Tribes needs examining against Eisler for veracity of 42 Tribes' quote to arrive at an independent original view rather than willy nilly acceptance of a subjective hostile prejudgemental critique of Eisler, i mean if we really want to be fair, but keeping in mind the Halosis itself is s rewrite not directly from Josephus's hand though possibly containing material from a non-Xian Jewish composed edition of some Josephus work.
Bottom line in my opinion is it's not a 1st century eyewitness account. The closest we have are catacomb paintings which are fanciful and postdate by more than a century he whom they portray in fact showing only their renderer s belief.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Lentulus apparently dates to the 15th century when is the first anyone knows it exists.
According to the Catholic encyclopedia Publius Lentullus is a fictitious person.
Says another source Modern Apocrypha, Famous "Biblical" Hoaxes Edgar J. Goodspeed The Beacon Press, Boston, 1956 pg 91
"The 'Letter of Lentulus' is evidently a fiction, designed to give currency to the description contained in the printers' manuals about the personal appearance of Jesus. The varying accounts of its provenance are simply devices to explain its survival from antiquity until today. It is probably as old as the thirteenth century; but it was unknown to Christian antiquity, and has no claims to serious attention as throwing any light upon the personal appearance of Jesus."
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
While the Slavonic Halosis purports to be Josephus, the Lentulus has nothing to do with anything that's supposed to be Josephus and must not be confused as such. Not being an ancient work there is no 'Greek text' nor would a Roman official document his superiors in other than Latin.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
—Com. μελαγχρής, ές, Cratin.425, Eup.430, Antiph.135, Men.974, Anon.Iamb. in Gerhard Phoinix p.7, also PCair.Zen.76.9 (iii B. C.); μ. μᾶζα Polioch.2.2. p. 1094
Copyright Statement Contact tlg-support@uci.edu for inquiries. TLG®is a registered trademark of he Regents of the University of California.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Every melanchr- eentry is a black something or other, bile, sail, shoe, hair. Yet somehow supposedly does not mean the darkest of colours when applied to skin.
There's nothing inherent about race anymore than Black Americans and Aboriginee Australians are one race though both are black.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Every melanchr- eentry is a black something or other, bile, sail, shoe, hair. Yet somehow supposedly does not mean the darkest of colours when applied to skin.
There's nothing inherent about race anymore than Black Americans and Aboriginee Australians are one race though both are black.
Well searched.
Something seems off in this "prestige classical Greek" online dictionary, because this dictionary doesn't recognize the word: melanchroes.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Believe it or not I was looking for Tufts when I GOOGLED Scott Liddell out of memory. I used it extensively when first presenting Aeschylus, Herodotus, Manilius etc on Manansala's, W alker's, and Rashidi's YAHOO groups in the early 2000s
I'll check Tuft's now. I suspect they list the singular form of the word but we gonna see.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
But even without clicking the headword you can see black-skinned in the short definition column.
Black-skinned people have always been noted as such regardless of ethnicity, nationality, or race despite protest from Eurocentrics and their Negro apologist cronies.
The Oxford agrees seeing it lists two separate biologically unrelated national ethnic racial populations, African Americans and Australian Aborigenees, as black.
From the Greeks (Aeschylus' Suppliants) to the Latins (Manilius' Astronomica) to the Arabic speaking Zanj (al~Jahiz' 'Glory') which trio testimony I've been presenting on the 'net since 1998.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Also search for containing the word skinned which returns 6 entries for black-skinned and one for white-skinned. You may even want to do a containing search for tanned, sunburn, and negro.
Nothing esoteric about it nor different than current usage since the ancient Greeks are the West's first informants on black peoples.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Also search for containing the word skinned which returns 6 entries for black-skinned and one for white-skinned. You may even want to do a containing search for tanned, sunburn, and negro.
Nothing esoteric about it nor different than current usage since the ancient Greeks are the West's first informants on black peoples.
Good work.
Reposted for newcomers:
Melanin Dosage Tests: Ancient Egyptians
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
-- A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2 Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13 " Materials and Methods
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Your subjective attempted distraction word usage feelings was anticipated but it can't cover up the objective referenced word usage facts and this thread is on the word melanchroes "μελάγχροες” an intellectual exercise not variant perceptions.
would it be correct to say that the cut off point for black is 1-5 ?
.
It is correct to say ancient Greeks knew and recognised black-skinned persons and peoples juxtaposed to white skin no different than today and Africa's Zanj a thousand years between Aeschylus and ourselves did too.
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posted
This is an example of fraud that comes from certain quarters within this community. This is the full version of the infamous Angel quote:
quote:Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size (Table 2, 3) one can identify Negroid (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably from Nubia (Anderson, 1969) via the unknown predecessors of Badarians (Morant, 1935) and Tasians, and travelling in the opposite direction sicklemia and thalassemia (porotic hyperostotis) (Angel, 1967a; Caffey, 1937 ; Moseley, 1965) and hence also falciparum malaria (Carcassi, Cepellini & Pitzus, 1957) from Greece (perhaps also Italy) (Gatto, 1960) and Anatolia (Angel, 1966) to Mesopotamia, the Levant, Egypt, and Africa.
See the bolded part of this sentence. Google this quote and see how certain website posted here conveniently cut the quote off where it stops telling them what they want to hear. We now know that evidence for the bolded part of that Angel quote is lacking. But even if it's false, this is how people here are doctoring quotes and you won't even know what the full text says until you read the full paper. This is not the only time I've seen it happen, either. Straight up setting lay people up for embarrassment when they communicate with people who really know these sources.
Anyway, I see the BS just doesn't stop. Since I see no one speaking up, I have no prob stepping up:
1) Historically, 'black' could refer to (a) jet-black skin (excluding brown skin), (b) a range of brown skin tones (including jet-black skin), (c) (one drop of blood from) a perceived race thought to epitomize African ancestry, (d) swarthy skin, etc.
2) The default interpretation of black of most western people, including Afro diasporans is 1c (i.e. the racialized meaning of the word).
3) The etymology of melas (black) and its occasional use as 'swarthy' by ancient Greeks is an irrelevant red herring when it comes to the AE. 'Melas' was clearly context dependent and at least when applied to Egypt, Colchians, Garamantes, etc is best read as 1b (range of brown and jet-black skin tones). We know this from Greek texts that liken Egyptian skin complexion to Indus Valley people (who were not as light skinned as today, but would have looked like the brown skinned Asiatics depicted by the Egyptians) as opposed to southern Indians or Central Sudanese(?).
"The people in the south are the same as the Aithiopians in color, but in regard to eyes and hair they are like the others (because of the moisture in the air their hair is not curly). Those in the north are like the Egyptians." —Strabo
4) Whenever the Greeks compared North Africans to Africans closer to the equator they always make it clear that 1b is the best translation of 'melas' for ancient Egyptians. In such texts the Greeks sometimes say or imply that "real" black people (by which they meant 1a) don't live in Egypt or even Nubia. I used to think only late Greeks (e.g. Manilius and Ptolemy) did this. But earlier Greeks (e.g. Hesiod) apparently did this, too.
Black people resided not in the Nile valley but in a far land, 'by the fountain of the sun', or where the sun 'goes to and fro' —Hesiod
5) Despite the observations summed up in point 2, 3 and 4, when some delusional ideologues come across Greek texts which apply 'melas' in reference to Egyptians, they insist that it should be translated to 'black' (usually meaning 1b). Their argument for this translation is that the etymology of 'melas' is 'black'. But this is a blatant red herring (see point 3) and makes little sense (see point 2). The idea that a translation to 'black' (1b) is justified because all Greeks subscribed to this concept is also dubious (see point 4). Moreover, what is the size of the public that is going to read 'black' as 1b vs the size that is going to read it as 1c? The former is clearly a minority even among Afro-diasporans who clearly don't see Indians and some brown Indonesians and Amerindians as 'black' in their use of the term. But then again, that's exactly what these liars want; deceive people, use suggestive language and manipulate what texts are saying to get 'the best end of the deal'.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Well, everyone outside a demagogues cult of personality is free to use Tufts' Greek language tools to for themselves see what each and every melas = ink derived word refers to or reverse words like tan or dark to see how many meals roots there are for them.
Either you have the will and brains to confirm or disconfirm independently or let your feelings and subjective biases default to accepting some old soft shoe shuffle in the face of the Oxford Dictionary and standard university Greek language tools based on acclaimed lexicons of Scott, Liddell, and Jones demonstrated and methodized in above posts. I will only accept the same likewise due diligence in rebuttal, and there ain't no one foolish enough to counter Scott, Liddell, and Jones is there?
And these tools yield more than dictionary definitions. Lexicons give book passages using the word under scrutiny with actual examples from the classic texts.
Objective to the core.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: This is an example of fraud that comes from certain quarters within this community. This is the full version of the infamous Angel quote:
quote:Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size (Table 2, 3) one can identify Negroid (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably from Nubia (Anderson, 1969) via the unknown predecessors of Badarians (Morant, 1935) and Tasians, and travelling in the opposite direction sicklemia and thalassemia (porotic hyperostotis) (Angel, 1967a; Caffey, 1937 ; Moseley, 1965) and hence also falciparum malaria (Carcassi, Cepellini & Pitzus, 1957) from Greece (perhaps also Italy) (Gatto, 1960) and Anatolia (Angel, 1966) to Mesopotamia, the Levant, Egypt, and Africa.
See the bolded part of this sentence. Google this quote and see how certain website posted here conveniently cut the quote off where it stops telling them what they want to hear. We now know that evidence for the bolded part of that Angel quote is lacking. But even if it's false, this is how people here are doctoring quotes and you won't even know what the full text says until you read the full paper. This is not the only time I've seen it happen, either. Straight up setting lay people up for embarrassment when they communicate with people who really know these sources.
I remember that quote being posted ad infinitum here ten years ago, before you even joined this community. I don't recall the exact context when someone first quoted it, but I know it was being cited as evidence of Neolithic-era movement from Africa into western Eurasia. Does anyone remember who was the first to post that quote here?
Posts: 7188 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:[504] Avoid the month Lenaeon [late January, early February], wretched days, all of them fit to skin an ox, and the frosts which are cruel when Boreas blows over the earth. He blows across horse-breeding Thrace upon the wide sea and stirs it up, while earth and the forest howl. On many a high-leafed oak and thick pine he falls and brings them to the bounteous earth in mountain glens: then all the immense wood roars and the beasts shudder and put their tails between their legs, even those whose hide is covered with fur; for with his bitter blast he blows even through them although they are shaggy-breasted. He goes even through an ox's hide; it does not stop him. Also he blows through the goat's fine hair. But through the fleeces of sheep, because their wool is abundant, the keen wind Boreas pierces not at all; but it makes the old man curved as a wheel. And it does not blow through the tender maiden who stays indoors with her dear mother, unlearned as yet in the works of golden Aphrodite, and who washes her soft body and anoints herself with oil and lies down in an inner room within the house, on a winter's day when the Boneless One [octopus or cuttle] gnaws his foot in his fireless house and wretched home; for the sun shows him no pastures to make for, but goes to and fro over the land and city of dusky men [the southern Aethiopians], and shines more sluggishly upon the whole race of the Hellenes. Then the horned and unhorned denizens of the wood, with teeth chattering pitifully, flee through the copses and glades, and all, as they seek shelter, have this one care, to gain thick coverts or some hollow rock. Then, like the Three-legged One [old man with walking-stick] whose back is broken and whose head looks down upon the ground, like him, I say, they wander to escape the white snow.
Your source is quoting 527-8, but look at the original text between 504 and 536. I'm not seeing a reference to Egyptians or the Nile here. Just a mention that the sun goes "to and fro" over Africa and moves more sluggishly over Greece.
Posts: 7188 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
^Looks like you're right. I can't find a reference to "the Nile Valley" in other translations either.
Nothing really surprises me anymore at this point. People are lying left and right when it comes these texts.
Posts: 8795 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Looks like you're right. I can't find a reference to "the Nile Valley" in other translations either.
Nothing really surprises me anymore at this point. People are lying left and right when it comes these texts.
I nonetheless agree with your larger point that the ancient Greeks had different understandings of color as applied to human beings that wouldn't perfectly coincide with latter-day racialist constructs. So while ancient Greek and Roman descriptions might be useful in showing how they perceived their foreign contemporaries, they are as you said a red herring with regards to population affinities. Doubly so when we're talking Egyptians who lived centuries before Hesiod, Herodotus, and so on.
However, it's been my impression that "Aethiopia" commonly addressed the kingdom of Kush in particular. Would these have not been the same "Nubian" populations that so many osteological analyses have shown were closely related to the Egyptians. Kerma for instance was the original capital of Kush before Napata and Meroe, and in Keita's research they appear almost interchangeable with Upper Egyptians. If these were the original "Aethiopians" in traditional Greek usage, I would say scholars like Snowden are in error to equate the label with the later "sub-Saharan African" construct.
On the other hand, you can't deny certain Greek and Roman quotes also attribute stereotypically "sub-Saharan" characteristics to "Aethiopians". My best guess is that "Aethiopian" meant the very darkest Africans like you've said, with phrasing like "melanchroes" referring to other gradients of pigmented skin.
Posts: 7188 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
^Right. Can you access the source given for note 57 ? Want to know what specifically it's based on, but I can't get to the bibliography page.
The Greeks always seem to have spoken of a cline from Sub-Saharan Africa to North Africa. Keep in mind that it was mainly the predynastic Egyptians who were interchangeable with several lower and Upper Nubians samples (especially with the A-D group samples and the Kerma sample). Classical Greek era dynastic Egyptians would have looked somewhat different from their predynastic predecessors and these Nubians.
quote: Originally posted by Nodnarb: I remember that quote being posted ad infinitum here ten years ago, before you even joined this community.
It reminds me of that Cemetery T (Naqada) sample a certain member here seems to have lied about. This poster introduced this paper to Egyptsearch, claimed that he had access to it and said it proved that lower Nubians founded the first Egyptian proto-state. According to this poster, Cemetery T members were more like the included Nubians (a group) than any contemporary nearby Egyptian sample. When members asked him to share the PDF file he said (conveniently) that he only had a physical copy.
Fast forward years later (this was before I registered) to ~2012 when someone I was in touch with PMed me the full paper. Make a long story short, the authors and the cranio-facial results said the exact opposite. There was nothing in it that supported Bruce Trigger's hypothesis. Among other things, the paper simply reproduced results we're already familiar with: that Nubians and predynastic people looked like two variants of the same general population.
The results of what happened when I addressed this and went against this supposed evidence for Trigger's precious hypothesis in several threads may still be on online. Pure denialism. Very strange. Repugnant. How can one be in denial about the statistical realities presented an MMD table?
Posts: 8795 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: It reminds me of that Cemetery T (Naqada) sample a certain member here seems to have lied about. This poster introduced this paper to Egyptsearch, claimed that he had access to it and said it proved that lower Nubians founded the first Egyptian proto-state. According to this poster, Cemetery T members were more like the included Nubians (a group) than any contemporary nearby Egyptian sample. When members asked him to share the PDF file he said (conveniently) that he only had a physical copy.
Fast forward years later (this was before I registered) to ~2012 when someone I was in touch with PMed me the full paper. Make a long story short, the authors and the cranio-facial results said the exact opposite. There was nothing in it that supported Bruce Trigger's hypothesis. Among other things, the paper simply reproduced results we're already familiar with: that Nubians and predynastic people looked like two variants of the same general population.
The results of what happened when I addressed this and went against this supposed evidence for Trigger's precious hypothesis in several threads may still be on online. Pure denialism. Very strange. Repugnant. How can one be in denial about the statistical realities presented an MMD table?
Egyptians or Sudanese is a direct hit on the Lower Nile Valley.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Maybe. Wasn't around back then to have a feel for when it first started to circulate.
Any luck with note 57 (see my previous post if you missed it)?
Posts: 8795 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Maybe. Wasn't around back then to have a feel for when it first started to circulate.
Any luck with note 57 (see my previous post if you missed it)?
Sorry, I missed it. But after looking at the Notes section near the end, the relevant ones aren't available in the preview. Said notes would somewhere between p. 326-36 (since the original claim is on p. 154), but all I see is the purple message that they're not shown in the preview.
Posts: 7188 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Thank you so much for your knowledge, objectivity and your insights. I agree that caution is required when ancient sources are evoked and that ancient colour concepts don't necessarily align with their modern counterparts.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:[504] Avoid the month Lenaeon [late January, early February], wretched days, all of them fit to skin an ox, and the frosts which are cruel when Boreas blows over the earth. He blows across horse-breeding Thrace upon the wide sea and stirs it up, while earth and the forest howl. On many a high-leafed oak and thick pine he falls and brings them to the bounteous earth in mountain glens: then all the immense wood roars and the beasts shudder and put their tails between their legs, even those whose hide is covered with fur; for with his bitter blast he blows even through them although they are shaggy-breasted. He goes even through an ox's hide; it does not stop him. Also he blows through the goat's fine hair. But through the fleeces of sheep, because their wool is abundant, the keen wind Boreas pierces not at all; but it makes the old man curved as a wheel. And it does not blow through the tender maiden who stays indoors with her dear mother, unlearned as yet in the works of golden Aphrodite, and who washes her soft body and anoints herself with oil and lies down in an inner room within the house, on a winter's day when the Boneless One [octopus or cuttle] gnaws his foot in his fireless house and wretched home; for the sun shows him no pastures to make for, but goes to and fro over the land and city of dusky men [the southern Aethiopians], and shines more sluggishly upon the whole race of the Hellenes. Then the horned and unhorned denizens of the wood, with teeth chattering pitifully, flee through the copses and glades, and all, as they seek shelter, have this one care, to gain thick coverts or some hollow rock. Then, like the Three-legged One [old man with walking-stick] whose back is broken and whose head looks down upon the ground, like him, I say, they wander to escape the white snow.
Your source is quoting 527-8, but look at the original text between 504 and 536. I'm not seeing a reference to Egyptians or the Nile here. Just a mention that the sun goes "to and fro" over Africa and moves more sluggishly over Greece.
I previously came across that false citation in a book and so I looked it up and I unsurprisingly could not find it in the original sources. That modern forgery was prominently cited in Eurocentric circles and by racist liars like Mathilda. Thanks, Nodnarb.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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i.e., the dark-skinned people of Africa, the Egyptians or Aethiopians.
Egyptians or Sudanese is a direct hit on the Lower Nile Valley.
Useful. I think this came up in correspondence, where the academic concluded that the reference was to the Ethiopians. I did wonder whether an assumption had been made but didn't pursue it. Good find.
You might be interested in the following...first, an e-mail from Mary Lefkowitz to Joel Freeman:
quote:The more I look at Egyptian statues the more African they seem to me. As you say, skin color is the one thing we can't be certain about, and probably (as you say) there was a considerable variation...Herodotus (and Aeschylus) call the Egyptians "dark" (melas), which tells us that they didn't look like Europeans, but nothing about the hue of their faces, or the exact shade of their skin. Hesiod refers to Africans as the "blue" (kyanos) men, meaning very dark (Greek color words usually refer to intensity rather than hue)..."
You may/may not know I corresponded with Mary Lefkowitz, and we covered the meaning of melas and melanchroes. In the discussion she mentioned the term cyanoi/kyanos:
30/03/2015
quote: Homer talks about the Ethiopians as cyanoi, which we usually translate as dark blue, but must mean dark brown, or anyway really dark. Melas can mean dark as night, or just dark relative to something else (which is still how the term is used in modern Greek, according to a Greek friend of mine).
Interestingly, when I asked a Greek woman the meaning of melas, she instantly said 'black', and also said it can mean ink, as I think you mention upthread.
Cut a long story short, I was interested in seeing the Hesiod source describing Ethiopians as blue/black, so asked Mary Lefkowitz if she could provide it. (I wanted to know/had asked whether the Egyptians had been referred to kyanos.)She checked, and confirmed that actually melas and kyanos are interchangeable and that the Egyptians were referred to as kyanos:
19/06/2015
quote: I checked the Hesiod passage, see p. 3 of the attached, and the standard commentaries on the passage by M.L. West. West says that melas and kyanos are interchangeable, and cites Hesiod's other epic the Theogony line 406, also attached. In the note on the passage in the Works and Days, he cites a passage where Egyptians are called kyanoi.
I hadn't heard of ML West, so googled him:
quote:In the field of classical scholarship, as traditionally understood, Martin West is to be judged, on any reckoning, the most brilliant and productive Greek scholar of his generation, not just in the United Kingdom, but worldwide.
quote: The Greeks did distinguish between Aigyptoi and Aithiopes or the "burnt face" people who lived further south, but that doesn't mean that the Egyptians had lighter skin. Aithiops was a vague term that covered a lot of territory in Africa that Greeks had heard about but may not have seen.
Get in touch if you need any more info.
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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Thanks. Some of that credit should also go to various places that got me started on this journey, including many insightful posts here.
Some people here discuss Manilius and put AE skin pigmentation on a cline sandwiched between Sudanese and other North Africans, but when they translate 'melas' many flip flop and INSIST that it should read 'black' to the point where they accuse you of being manipulative when you say that it should be a range of brown in the case of AE. But, leaving it at 'black', how are lay people not going to feel deceived/confused when they read Ptolemy, Manilius, etc. who explicitly locate "pure black" and fully "sunburnt" people away from Egypt and characterize Egyptians as more mildly complexioned?
Posts: 8795 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Now people try to pin-point Hesiod's sunny area to the Nile Valley. It really doesn't stop, does it?
From intuition I'm a 97% certain that they did, but can someone familiar with Greek thought confirm that they considered the sun to rise and set along the equator (i.e. the southernmost territory of the eastern [Asiatic] and western Aethiopians known to Greeks) and NOT over Egypt?
quote: Originally posted by Nodnarb:
quote:And it does not blow through the tender maiden who stays indoors with her dear mother, unlearned as yet in the works of golden Aphrodite, and who washes her soft body and anoints herself with oil and lies down in an inner room within the house, on a winter's day when the Boneless One [octopus or cuttle] gnaws his foot in his fireless house and wretched home; for the sun shows him no pastures to make for, but goes to and fro over the land and city of dusky men [the southern Aethiopians], and shines more sluggishly upon the whole race of the Hellenes.
I asked a Latinist if they could translate the following passage from Poenulus, or The Young Carthaginian:
sed mea amica nunc mihi irato obviam veniat velim: iam pol ego illam pugnis totam faciam uti sit merulea, ita replebo atritate, atrior multo ut siet, quam Aegyptini, qui cortinam ludis per circum ferunt.
quote:But I wish my girlfriend would run into me now as angry as I am: Indeed, by Pollux, I would rain blows all over her so that she is like a blackbird! I will so fill her with blackness (darkness?) that she will be much blacker (darker) than the little Egyptians who carry a kettle through the Circus (Maximus) at the games.
For me, what's more interesting than the reference to Egyptian darkness/blackness, is the fact that, to the Latinist's annoyance, a modern academic replaced Aegyptini with Ethiopians:
24/07/2015
quote: “You must try to get your hands on a translation by Amy Richlin (Richly, Amy. (2005) Rome and the Mysterious Orient. Berkeley: University of California Press.) …In the passage you inquire about, she changes “Aegyptini” to ETHIOPIANS!! She based this on an entry in a very obscure lexicon by a second century CE author, Sextus Pompeius Festus.”
Was the obvious reference suggestion to Egyptian blackness too much for Richlin?
I was cool with it though, since the substitution speaks to the interesting idea of the interchangeableness of Egyptians/Ethiopians; I’ve not read it, but the Sextus Pompeius Festus entry would seem to attest to this. It also chimes with something Sally-Ann Ashton said at the 2009 Manchester museum conference about the Greeks confusing the two groups – Tristan Samuels likened this to confusing Afro-Caribbeans and continental Africans on a day to day street level basis.
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
Bottom line. Don't trust European translators
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
precision
Melas can mean dark as well as black. Ink is only a word derived from melas. It is not the root.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
It was claimed there was nothing in print specifically indicating the Nile Valley in Hesiod's passage but there is. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
Nor does my presenting it give it any endorsement. Mention of the sun's to and fro is an allusion to the sense of Aithiopia extending from the rising of the sun to its setting.
Based on other classic authors the understanding of Hesiod here is Greater Aithiopia, Eastern and Western Aithiopia, Asian and African blacks ('dusky' men) though he uses land singular.
"Homer alluded to the Ethiopians of two continents, noting that one division was situated towards the sunrise and another towards the sunset; for the Ethiopians are, says the poet:
A race divided, whom the sloping rays The rising and the setting sun surveys."
Hansberry 1977 p6
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: White's footnote on dusky men says
quote: i.e., the dark-skinned people of Africa, the Egyptians or Aethiopians.
Egyptians or Sudanese is a direct hit on the Lower Nile Valley.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Trops
Your Mary quotes remind me of the pioneering work against the Aryan Model of interpreting the classic.
Sergi 1901 pp 18-20 where he says "kyanos is black, blue-black, violet, in Homer sometimes blacker than melas ." on p19c also the derived kyanochaites used of Poseidon and connoting bluish blackish hair like deep dark ocean waves.
Once again your art of correspondence has added value to a concise previous exposure. It's good to learn from you.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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