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» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » Bantu migration from Sudan? (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Bantu migration from Sudan?
the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

However, what I am saying that the underlying theory that most of sub saharan Africa was populated by Pygmies and khoi san prior to the arrival of Bantus is false.

So how does Doug know this?

It sounds like he's making it up just based on what he perceives to be political correctness.

Where's the evidence?

If prior to the Bantus there was some other group, not Pygmies or Khoisan, where is the evidence?

" they must be there but the white scientists are too racist to look for them"

So get the African scientists too look

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Ledama Kenya
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

However, what I am saying that the underlying theory that most of sub saharan Africa was populated by Pygmies and khoi san prior to the arrival of Bantus is false.

So how does Doug know this?

It sounds like he's making it up just based on what he perceives to be political correctness.

Where's the evidence?

If prior to the Bantus there was some other group, not Pygmies or Khoisan, where is the evidence?

" they must be there but the white scientists are too racist to look for them"

So get the African scientists too look

The oldest population in Kenya and Tanzania is the Southern Nilotic speaking NDOROBO PEOPLE..All Tribes here can attest to this.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by ELIMU:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

However, what I am saying that the underlying theory that most of sub saharan Africa was populated by Pygmies and khoi san prior to the arrival of Bantus is false.

So how does Doug know this?

It sounds like he's making it up just based on what he perceives to be political correctness.

Where's the evidence?

If prior to the Bantus there was some other group, not Pygmies or Khoisan, where is the evidence?

" they must be there but the white scientists are too racist to look for them"

So get the African scientists too look

The oldest population in Kenya and Tanzania is the Southern Nilotic speaking NDOROBO PEOPLE..All Tribes here can attest to this.
stick to West Africa
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup L2 originated in Western Africa but is nowadays spread across the entire continent.


MtDNA haplogroup L2 is the sister branch of the Eastern African L3′4′6 clade that contains all the OOA diversity within haplogroup L3. While L3′4′6 originated in Eastern Africa22, haplogroup L2 probably originated in Western Africa but is nowadays widespread across the continent; it is highly frequent in many regions, such as in Western/Central and Southeast Africa (probably associated with the Bantu expansion that occurred in the last few millennia) and in Northwest, most likely due to trans-Saharan slave trade18, 25. [Big Grin]


Together with haplogroup L3, it represents ~70% of sub-Saharan mtDNA variation but despite its high frequency and wide distribution, L2 was not involved in the OOA 26, since most likely it was not yet arrived in Eastern Africa by that time.


The demographic history of L2 is not yet completely understood, especially concerning the age of the expansion into Eastern Africa, a region that might have acted as a refuge during some severe episodes of climate oscillations over the last hundred thousand years27. One possibility is that the expansion of L2 to the East, most likely as with the expansion to the South, was related with movements of Bantu-speaking populations. However, in the regions of highest frequency of L2 in Eastern Africa (over 30%, in the area of Sudan and Ethiopia)13 there are no records of Bantu groups. Furthermore, recent evidence from HVS-I13 suggests that this haplogroup might have first expanded to Eastern Africa much earlier, possibly due to the improvement of climate conditions during the early Holocene. This signal was also observed with Bayesian analysis of L2 (and L2a) complete sequences28. Moreover, particular clades of L2a and L2c suggest an expansion, possibly along the Sahel corridor, after the LGM18. Migrations at this time frame are also observed in branches of other African haplogroups, such as L0a, L1b and L3f2, 12, 18, 29.



http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150727/srep12526/full/srep12526.html


quote:
The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.


--Eliška Podgorná et al.

Annals of Human Genetics
Volume 77, Issue 6, pages 513–523, November 2013


The Genetic Impact of the Lake Chad Basin Population in North Africa as Documented by Mitochondrial Diversity and Internal Variation of the L3e5 Haplogroup

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ahg.12040/abstr

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Ish Geber
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quote:
West Africa is characterized by a migration history spanning more than 150,000 years.

Climate changes but also political circumstances were responsible for several early but also recent population movements that shaped the West African mitochondrial landscape. The aim of the study was to establish a Ghanaian mtDNA dataset for forensic purposes and to investigate the diversity of the Ghanaian population sample with respect to surrounding populations. We sequenced full mitochondrial control regions of 193 Akan people from Ghana and excluded two apparently close maternally related individuals due to preceding kinship testing. The remaining dataset comprising 191 sequences was applied as etalon for quasi-median network analysis and was subsequently combined with 99 additional control region sequences from surrounding West African countries. All sequences were incorporated into the EMPOP database enriching the severely underrepresented African mtDNA pool. For phylogeographic considerations, the Ghanaian haplotypes were compared to those of 19 neighboring populations comprising a total number of 6198 HVS1 haplotypes. We found extensive genetic admixture between the Ghanaian lineages and those from adjacent populations diminishing with geographical distance. The extent of genetic admixture reflects the long but also recent history of migration waves within West Africa mainly caused by changing environmental conditions. Also, evidence for potential socio-economical influences such as trade routes is provided by the occurrence of U6b and U6d sequences found in Dubai but also in Tunisia leading to the African West Coast via Mauritania and Senegal but also via Niger, Nigeria to Cameroon.

MtDNA diversity of Ghana: a forensic and phylogeographic view

Liane Fendt, Alexander Röck, Bettina Zimmermann, Martin Bodner, Thorsten Thye, Frank Tschentscher1, Ellis Owusu-Dabo, Tanja M.K. Göbel, Peter M. Schneider, Walther ParsoncorrespondencePress enter key for correspondence informationemailPress enter key to Email the author

Landeskriminalamt Düsseldorf, Germany.


DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2011.05.011

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the lioness,
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On the Bantu expansion

Daine J. Rowoldb, David Perez-Benedicoc, Oliver Stojkovicd, Ralph Garcia-Bertranda, 2016

Abstract
Here we report the results of fine resolution
Y chromosomal analyses (Y-SNP and Y-STR)
of 267 Bantu-speaking males from three
populations located in the
southeast region of Africa.
In an effort to determine the relative
Y chromosomal affinities of these
three genotyped populations, the
findings are interpreted in the
context of 74 geographically and
ethnically targeted African
reference populations representing
four major ethno-linguistic groups
(Afro-Asiatic, Niger Kordofanin,
Khoisan and Pygmoid). In this
investigation, we detected a general
similarity in the Y chromosome
lineages among the geographically
dispersed Bantu-speaking populations
suggesting a shared heritage and the
shallow time depth of the
Bantu Expansion. Also, micro-variations
in the Bantu Y chromosomal composition
across the continent highlight
location-specific gene flow patterns with non-Bantu-speaking populations
(Khoisan, Pygmy, Afro-Asiatic).
Our Y chromosomal results also indicate
that the three Bantu-speaking Southeast
populations genotyped exhibit
unique gene flow patterns involving
Eurasian populations but fail to reveal
a prevailing genetic affinity to
East or Central African Bantu-speaking
groups. In addition, the Y-SNP data
underscores a longitudinal partitioning
in sub-Sahara Africa of two R1b1
subgroups, R1b1-P25* (west) and
R1b1a2-M269 (east). No evidence
was observed linking the B2a haplogroup
detected in the genotyped Southeast
African Bantu-speaking populations
to gene flow from contemporary
Khoisan groups.

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Doug M
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Just a note, I have been trying to find the oldest human (not early hominid) remains found in South Africa and I have not been able to easily find any articles. But I did find this. Good luck with Africans taking charge of their own history with folks like this around:

quote:

Some prominent South Africans have dismissed the discovery of new human ancestor Homo naledi as a racist theory designed to cast Africans as "subhuman".

"No-one will dig old monkey bones to back up a theory that I was once a baboon. Sorry," said Zwelinzima Vavi, former general-secretary of the powerful trade union group Cosatu, which is a faithful ally of the ruling African National Congress (ANC).

Mr Vavi's comments came after last week's discovery of Homo naledi, described by scientists as a new distant ancestor of humans.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-17/new-human-sparks-racism-row-in-south-africa/6783844?pfmredir=sm

The point being there aren't very many human remains being excavated across "sub Saharan" Africa of any serious time depth. That and the absense of any serious archaeological work makes it hard to say who was where in Africa with any real seriousness. If there were people making ochre at Blombos Cave 70,000 years ago, we should be asking where are the physical remains so we can compare them against other current populations and compare.

In fact, most of the articles that I came across refer to Homo Naledi but not much about any ancient HSS remains.

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xyyman
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Did you read it Lioness? The Bantu Expansion never occurred!!!!!

Quote:
Populations sharing the highest portions of haplotypes with our Ghanaian samples were the additional Ghana population (24.8%), the populations from Niger (20.8%) and from Mali (20.4%). In contrast we found no shared haplotypes between Ghana and the Central African Republic. Not all Bantus are Bantus

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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This is an interesting paper I need to deep dive into:

Quote:
Our Y chromosomal results also indicate that the three Bantu-speaking Southeast populations genotyped exhibit unique gene flow patterns involving Eurasian populations but ****fail
to reveal a prevailing genetic affinity to East or Central African Bantu-speaking groups*****
. In addition, the Y-SNP data underscores a longitudinal partitioning in sub-Sahara Africa of two
R1b1 subgroups, R1b1-P25* (west) and R1b1a2-M269 (east). No evidence was observed linking the B2a haplogroup detected in the genotyped Southeast African Bantu-speaking
populations to gene flow from contemporary Khoisan groups.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Did you read it Lioness? The Bantu Expansion never occurred!!!!!

Quote:
Populations sharing the highest portions of haplotypes with our Ghanaian samples were the additional Ghana population (24.8%), the populations from Niger (20.8%) and from Mali (20.4%). In contrast we found no shared haplotypes between Ghana and the Central African Republic. Not all Bantus are Bantus

how did you get this quote?

Bantu is a language classification

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xyyman
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Where did I get the quote ? ???????

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
West Africa is characterized by a migration history spanning more than 150,000 years.

Climate changes but also political circumstances were responsible for several early but also recent population movements that shaped the West African mitochondrial landscape. The aim of the study was to establish a Ghanaian mtDNA dataset for forensic purposes and to investigate the diversity of the Ghanaian population sample with respect to surrounding populations. We sequenced full mitochondrial control regions of 193 Akan people from Ghana and excluded two apparently close maternally related individuals due to preceding kinship testing. The remaining dataset comprising 191 sequences was applied as etalon for quasi-median network analysis and was subsequently combined with 99 additional control region sequences from surrounding West African countries. All sequences were incorporated into the EMPOP database enriching the severely underrepresented African mtDNA pool. For phylogeographic considerations, the Ghanaian haplotypes were compared to those of 19 neighboring populations comprising a total number of 6198 HVS1 haplotypes. We found extensive genetic admixture between the Ghanaian lineages and those from adjacent populations diminishing with geographical distance. The extent of genetic admixture reflects the long but also recent history of migration waves within West Africa mainly caused by changing environmental conditions. Also, evidence for potential socio-economical influences such as trade routes is provided by the occurrence of U6b and U6d sequences found in Dubai but also in Tunisia leading to the African West Coast via Mauritania and Senegal but also via Niger, Nigeria to Cameroon.

MtDNA diversity of Ghana: a forensic and phylogeographic view

Liane Fendt, Alexander Röck, Bettina Zimmermann, Martin Bodner, Thorsten Thye, Frank Tschentscher1, Ellis Owusu-Dabo, Tanja M.K. Göbel, Peter M. Schneider, Walther ParsoncorrespondencePress enter key for correspondence informationemailPress enter key to Email the author

Landeskriminalamt Düsseldorf, Germany.


DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2011.05.011


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Did you read it Lioness? The Bantu Expansion never occurred!!!!!

Quote:
Populations sharing the highest portions of haplotypes with our Ghanaian samples were the additional Ghana population (24.8%), the populations from Niger (20.8%) and from Mali (20.4%). In contrast we found no shared haplotypes between Ghana and the Central African Republic. Not all Bantus are Bantus

how did you get this quote?

Bantu is a language classification

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Where did I get the quote ? ???????

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
MtDNA diversity of Ghana: a forensic and phylogeographic view

Liane Fendt, Alexander Röck, Bettina Zimmermann, Martin Bodner, Thorsten Thye, Frank Tschentscher1, Ellis Owusu-Dabo, Tanja M.K. Göbel, Peter M. Schneider, Walther ParsoncorrespondencePress enter key for correspondence informationemailPress enter key to Email the author

Landeskriminalamt Düsseldorf, Germany.


DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2011.05.011


I don't see the quote in the article. Where is the quote from?
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xyyman
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Siiigggghhhhhh!!!!!! What "I gots to" hold your hands to cross the street.

I am a fast reader Lioness


Quote:
-----

****Supplementary material***** to Fendt et al. (2011). MtDNA diversity of Ghana: a forensic and phylogeographic view

Population comparisons
We observed different extents of shared haplotypes between the 191 Ghanaian samples and the compared populations (Supplementary Table 1 (5)). 56.6% of the Ghanaian sequences from this study were found also in the other populations. Populations sharing the highest portions of haplotypes with our Ghanaian samples were the additional Ghana population (24.8%), the populations from Niger (20.8%) and from Mali (20.4%). In contrast we found no shared haplotypes between Ghana and the Central African Republic. This is not surprising as high extents of admixture/introgression rates between farming people and Pygmy hunter-gatherers are unlikely due to completely different lifestyles. An MDS plot was calculated to depict the dissimilarities between the observed populations as distance matrix based on average population pairwise differences (Supplementary Figure 1). The more differences between populations, the more distant they were displayed to each other in the plot. We excluded the sample set from the Central African Republic from the MDS analysis because it was an outlier reducing the dissolution of the remaining groups.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Swenet
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Lioness, you're going to let gramps pull wool over your eyes? You fallacy radar should be picking up on all sorts of warning signs. You're asking the wrong questions.

@Gramps
I love how you initially cut that quote off before the omitted text identifies the Central African sample as Pygmy.

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xyyman
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You are smarter than I give you credit for.....lol!
But isn't it conventional belief that farmers and pygmies admixed ...at least along maternal lines. Didn't male Bantus and the Central African female pygmies admixed. or is that another lie?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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OT @ Dr Winters

This is the first I have seen "European R-M269" found so deep in inner Africa, so far south, Mozambique. What is fascinating the author is also confused because he cannot definitely concluded it was due to Portuguese colonizers since the OTHER "European" associated male haplogroups are missing like I, G etc. Furthermore the frequency is relatively high. Maybe you are right R-M269 is also of African origin?! It would help if they did a deep analysis with high resolution. Determine if it is the "Arab" version of R1b found in the Steppes and South Asia(not in western Europe) since Mozambique is on the Eastern side of Africa. It would make sense if it was.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Gramps, I agree with you on the non-West African variations in many Bantu speakers. See the PCA in Salas et al 2002. No argument there. Lioness should look in that direction and challenge you on why that doesn't mean the migrations never happened. I would love to see the debate that results from that  -

She'll figure it out

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Ish Geber
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quote:

 -
Frequencies of haplogroups A (yellow), B2a (light blue), and B2b (dark blue) in Africa. For details on specific populations included in these groups, please refer to the column “Group code” in supplementary table S8 (Supplementary Material online). NFPR, northern food producers; WFPR, western food producers; WPYG, western Pygmies; CFPR, central food producers; EPYG, eastern Pygmies; EKHO, eastern Khoisan speakers; EFPR, eastern food producers; SKHO, southern Khoisan speakers; SFPR, southern food producers.


However, although mtDNA variation has been thoroughly investigated by detailed dissection of the most informative lineages (Salas et al. 2002; Gonder et al. 2007; Behar et al. 2008), and, more recently, autosomal variation has begun to be explored in detail (Tishkoff et al. 2009), such a level of resolution has been only partially applied to Y chromosome African haplogroups. Sub-Saharan African Y chromosome diversity is represented by five main haplogroups (hgs): A, B, E, J, and R (Underhill et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; Tishkoff et al. 2007). Hgs J and R are geographically restricted to eastern and central Africa, respectively, whereas hg E shows a wider continental distribution (see also Berniell-Lee et al. 2009; Cruciani et al. 2010). Despite the phylogeographic dissection of hg E is still ongoing, it has been suggested that this clade might be linked, at least in part, with the diffusion of agriculture and pastoralism in the continent during the last 4,000–5,000 years, as initially indicated by its parallel distribution to Bantu-speaking communities (Underhill et al. 2001; Henn et al. 2008). The other two lineages, A and B, represent the most basal branches within the human Y chromosome genealogy and are dispersed across different geographic areas and populations, with considerably high frequencies in hunter-gatherer populations.


West Africa

Haplogroup A in western Africa is represented only by the A1a lineage. The variation within this clade dates back to 10.5 (4.2–23.7) Kya and to 8 (3.1–19.4) Kya when only western African haplotypes are considered (see table 1b), which is in agreement with the archaeological and linguistic evidence related to the peopling of this region. The Ounanian culture has in fact been recorded in Mali as far back as 9–10 Kya (Clark 1980; Raimbault 1990; Mac Donald 1998), and the lithic and ceramic assemblages from Ounjougou date back to 12 Kya (Huysecom et al. 2004; Huysecom et al. 2009). Similarly, the origin of the early Niger-Congo Atlantic branch has been placed at least 8 Kya (Ehret 2000; Blench 2006). The detection of a specific genetic signal associated with early human presence in this area is of interest given the homogeneity between western and central African populations that has been observed so far for genome-wide analysis (Cruciani et al. 2002; Wood et al. 2005; Tishkoff et al. 2007; Li et al. 2008; Tishkoff et al. 2009).

[...]

B2a as a Marker of the Bantu Expansion?

Although B2a has not been investigated with the same resolution as the A and B2b hgs, our data support its association with Bantu-speaking populations, as previously reported (see supplementary table S1, Supplementary Material online; Beleza et al. 2005; Berniell-Lee et al. 2009). Within-clade variation suggests a more recent origin for B2a than B2b, whereas network analysis did not reveal population-specific or geographically localized STR-based clusters (supplementary fig. S1, Supplementary Material online). However, the relatively deep within-clade dating (6.1 [2.2–14] Kya) suggests a scenario possibly pre-dating the diffusion of Bantu languages, in line with what has been observed for some subclades of hg E (Montano V, Destro-Bisol G, Comas D, personal communication). Deeper phylogenetic resolution within the B2a clade, coupled with additional population sampling, may help to clarify the demographic dynamics associated with its dispersal.


--Chiara Batini† et al.

Signatures of the Preagricultural Peopling Processes in Sub-Saharan Africa as Revealed by the Phylogeography of Early Y Chromosome Lineages

Mol Biol Evol (2011)
doi: 10.1093/molbev/msr089
First published online: April 4, 2011

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/9/2603.full

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quote:


Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup L2 originated in Western Africa but is nowadays spread across the entire continent. L2 movements were previously postulated to be related to the Bantu expansion, but L2 expansions eastwards probably occurred much earlier. By reconstructing the phylogeny of L2 (44 new complete sequences) we provide insights on the complex net of within-African migrations in the last 60 thousand years (ka). Results show that lineages in Southern Africa cluster with Western/Central African lineages at a recent time scale, whereas, eastern lineages seem to be substantially more ancient. Three moments of expansion from a Central African source are associated to L2: (1) one migration at 70–50 ka into Eastern or Southern Africa, (2) postglacial movements (15–10 ka) into Eastern Africa; and (3) the southward Bantu Expansion in the last 5 ka. The complementary population and L0a phylogeography analyses indicate no strong evidence of mtDNA gene flow between eastern and southern populations during the later movement, suggesting low admixture between Eastern African populations and the Bantu migrants. This implies that, at least in the early stages, the Bantu expansion was mainly a demic diffusion with little incorporation of local populations.


Introduction
Africa has been considered the cradle of mankind for a long time. Both genetic data (uniparental genetic markers and genome-wide diversity) and fossil evidence suggest that anatomically modern humans originated in this continent1, spreading later all over the globe. However, there is still a vigorous debate not only on the specific region within Africa where modern humans appeared, but also regarding the initial migrations within this continent2. Despite being geographically restricted to Africa before the Out-of-Africa (OOA) migration, ancestral populations most likely already displayed a strong genetic structure for at least 100 thousand years (ka)2,3,4, highly influenced by episodes of climate oscillation5.

The climate dynamics continued to contribute to African population structure after the OAA, notoriously the African Late Glacial Maximum (LGM; at ~18–16 ka6, later on than the northern hemisphere one at ~22–19 ka7), which contributed to aridity, resulting in the expansion of the Sahara desert several kilometres southwards6. The Pleistocene/Holocene transition (~11.5 ka) was characterized by changes in atmospheric circulation and solar radiation6, improving environmental conditions and leading to major human expansions in southwest Asia8, Europe9, and also in Africa (Saharan areas were recolonized10,11, allowing frequent flow across West/Central and North/South2,12,13,14). The humid conditions peaked at the Holocene climatic optimum (~9–6 ka), when Sahara desert virtually disappeared and the Chad lake was seven times larger than today14. A shift to aridity occurred later in the Sahara, at ~6 ka15.

More recently, the African genetic and cultural landscape was deeply affected by an event known as the Bantu expansion. The expansion of Bantu-speakers is thought to have started in the Grassfields region between southeast Nigeria and western Cameroon and taken two main routes from its starting point: a western route, throughout the west coast of Africa, having arrived to Angola, South Africa and Botswana around 3.5 ka, and an eastern route, towards the Great Lakes in Eastern Africa, reaching the region of Uganda about 2.5 ka, where they remained for a couple thousand years, expanding later into the south, reaching Mozambique by ~1.8 ka16,17,18. The Eastern route is of particular interest to study potential crossings between migrants and local eastern populations (namely Nilotic and Cushitic people), during the period in which the Bantu people were stationed in the Great Lakes region. Linguistic differences between eastern and western Bantu languages seem to mirror the two routes of expansion, but, recent evidence suggests a later split of Eastern and Western Bantu19. Either way, the Bantu expansion probably forced the retreat of contemporary local sub-Saharan populations: the San were further confined to the South towards the Kalahari desert and kept their typical Khoisan languages (with click consonants) and ethnic identity, and the Pygmies, on the other hand, were pushed deeper into the forests and eventually some adopted Bantu languages20.

Recent methodological and technical advances led to the emergence of genome-wide (GW) studies, whose main advantage for demographic inference is allowing us to identify and quantify admixture between populations of distinct ancestries21. However, current GW dating methods are still limited in dissecting between several migration waves, usually leading to the identification of a single event of average/young age (discussed in22). Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), on the other hand, is only maternally inherited, but due to its fast mutation rate, accumulates variation fast enough amongst different locations, to make it a suitable molecular marker for the phylogeographic approach. Since reliable mtDNA mutation rates have been calculated, it is possible to frame the various demographic events within distinct time periods23. A lineage-based approach can thus provide insights into the demography of populations and reveal patterns that would otherwise be dismissed, and has proved particularly useful to resolve the old debate regarding the Bantu expansion: the identification of specific lineages suggested that the expansion of Bantu languages was due to the migration of Bantu-speakers, rather than just a cultural diffusion19, as previously thought.

Previous studies based on hypervariable segment I (HVS-I) diversity have shown that haplogroup L2 played a major role in the Bantu migration17,18,24. MtDNA haplogroup L2 is the sister branch of the Eastern African L3′4′6 clade that contains all the OOA diversity within haplogroup L3. While L3′4′6 originated in Eastern Africa22, haplogroup L2 probably originated in Western Africa but is nowadays widespread across the continent; it is highly frequent in many regions, such as in Western/Central and Southeast Africa (probably associated with the Bantu expansion that occurred in the last few millennia) and in Northwest, most likely due to trans-Saharan slave trade18,25. Together with haplogroup L3, it represents ~70% of sub-Saharan mtDNA variation but despite its high frequency and wide distribution, L2 was not involved in the OOA26, since most likely it was not yet arrived in Eastern Africa by that time.

The demographic history of L2 is not yet completely understood, especially concerning the age of the expansion into Eastern Africa, a region that might have acted as a refuge during some severe episodes of climate oscillations over the last hundred thousand years27. One possibility is that the expansion of L2 to the East, most likely as with the expansion to the South, was related with movements of Bantu-speaking populations. However, in the regions of highest frequency of L2 in Eastern Africa (over 30%, in the area of Sudan and Ethiopia)13 there are no records of Bantu groups. Furthermore, recent evidence from HVS-I13 suggests that this haplogroup might have first expanded to Eastern Africa much earlier, possibly due to the improvement of climate conditions during the early Holocene. This signal was also observed with Bayesian analysis of L2 (and L2a) complete sequences28. Moreover, particular clades of L2a and L2c suggest an expansion, possibly along the Sahel corridor, after the LGM18. Migrations at this time frame are also observed in branches of other African haplogroups, such as L0a, L1b and L3f2,12,18,29.

Despite being spread across different regions, most of the haplogroup L2 sequences available in online databases are either from Western or Southern Africans or from African-Americans. We aim to better understand the phylogeographic patterns of L2 by improving its phylogeny based on complete sequence information especially for Eastern Africa, a region poorly characterized for L2 clades. This increased resolution will enable us to ascertain about the intensity of the gene flow from Eastern populations to the Bantu migrants towards south. The L2 complete sequence analysis was complemented by a similar analysis for haplogroup L0a (also present in Central and Eastern Africa by the time of the Bantu expansion2) and a HVS-I population-based approach.

[...]



--Marina Silva, Farida Alshamali, Paula Silva, Carla Carrilho, Flávio Mandlate, Maria Jesus Trovoada, Viktor Černý, Luísa Pereira & Pedro Soares

60,000 years of interactions between Central and Eastern Africa documented by major African mitochondrial haplogroup L2

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep12526

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xyyman
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I said many times before, Europeans are liars and are confused. There wasn’t a “Bantu Expansion” from the West Coast of Africa. “Bantus’” came from the East very recently.
It is all BS made up by delusional Europeans. Just as they are delusional about a white Egypt and they came from the Steppes of Asia forgetting that their women did not come from the Steppes. This is an old study but relevant. Again. The Bantu Expansion Never Occurred!!!!!!!!!


I took Beyoku advice and contacted the researchers and I laid my hands of some research papers I never had available. So here goes……for this one.


------

(2002)Bantu and European Y-lineages in Sub-Saharan Africa
L. PEREIRA",#


However, the internal composition displayed by this common set of haplotypes was different in the western
and the eastern populations.
In the west, haplotype 15-21-10-11-13 was predominant, and haplotypes
15-21-11-11-13 and 15-21-10-11-14 were present in decreasing frequencies, while the remaining
16-21-10-11-13 and 15-22-10-11-13 were less (and equally) frequent. In the east, haplotypes
15-21-10-11-13 and 15-21-10-11-14 were equally predominant, then 16-21-10-11-13, and
®nally 15-21-11-11-13. The Pretoria Bantus displayed an intermediate frequency distribution
for the three most frequent haplotypes (pooling the frequencies from Angola, Mozambique and
Pretoria) (Fig. 2

When considering the overall haplotype diversity de®ned by the 5Y-STRs (Table 3), several
measures seem to show the southwards decrease in diversity; stronger in the west coast than in the
east
, but with the south displaying an intermediate level of diversity.

However, the presence of some common haplotypes seems to point to the existence of an ancient commonYpool,
MAYBE reinforced by Bantu inputs not directly connected with the major Bantu expansion.
The expansion of the study to the one-step neighbours of the Bantu founder haplotype (in
the time range of Bantu expansion) showed a reduction of diversity towards the south, which
seems STRONGER along the western African coast
. The western and eastern waves of Bantu migration
seem to have shared a common founder set, but differ in haplotype frequencies, being slightly more diverse in the east.

The Bantu haplotypes are also detected in Central African Pygmies (12±9%), which can
indicate gene ¯ow between both, BUT it seems that the Bantu expansion is not sufficient to
account fo
r the diversity reduction observed in this population as the haplotype frequency distribution
suggests.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] I said many times before, Europeans are liars and are confused. There wasn’t a “Bantu Expansion” from the West Coast of Africa. “Bantus’” came from the East very recently.

When did bantus come from the East to the West?

and were there people already in the West when they came or was West Africa unpopulated at the time?

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xyyman
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As I said many times before when aDNA is done in West Africa beyond 3000BC it will not be of modern Bantus genetic profile. It would either be very similar to La Branaa and/or Khoi-San.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I said many times before, Europeans are liars and are confused. There wasn’t a “Bantu Expansion” from the West Coast of Africa. “Bantus’” came from the East very recently.

They say the bantu migration started at about 1000 B.C, and ended at about 1700 A.D.


But you say that bantus were not in West Africa at that time. At 1000 B.C. they were East Africans living in East Africa and there were no bantus in West Africa at that time.

So when, more recently than 1000 B.C. did the bantus leave East Africa and first settle in West Africa?

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xyyman
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You still don't get it. It does matter "what they say". Europeans lie and are delusional.

It is what the data shows!!!!

The data shows there is a clear divide between West and East Bantus. The researcher actually concluded that. If there is a clear distinction or divide then there was no migration of peoples from West to East. The theory is a lie. In fact the genetic geographic profile suggestion that the source is a East central origin pushing West and South East maybe about 1500bc.


That will also explain why modern West Africans are 3rd closest to AEians and AEians carry E-M2.

And before you ask it. YEsS Europeans are connected to AEians just as every human on earth. The question is, "how close"?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

“Bantus’” came from the East very recently.




So when was this?

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Really? This is all you have after your introduction rant about having "contacted researchers" and "lying Europeans"? I'm thinking I'm going to be blown away by these excerpts. Pure bait.
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xyyman
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lol! That's all I need.

I have an entire thread surmising there wasn’t a Bantu Expansion. See ESR. This will be added. Since 2002 Perrieria knew this…lying Europeans.

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Really? This is all you have after your introduction rant about having "contacted researchers" and "lying Europeans"? I'm thinking I'm going to be blown away by these excerpts. Pure bait.


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Really? This is all you have after your introduction rant about having "contacted researchers" and "lying Europeans"? I'm thinking I'm going to be blown away by these excerpts. Pure bait.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:

“Bantus’” came from the East very recently.




xyyman says there was a migration of bantus from East Africa to West Africa (and elsewhere) and it happened recently that what Europeans call the "bantu migration"
I asked him when did this happen but he went into hiding

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xyyman
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Lioness. Don’t mis-direct. The Europeans are calling the recent supposed migration less than 3000ya from West Africa to East Africa the ‘Bantu Expansion’. There is no genetic proof of that. I am saying the genetic data shows that there was a migration from East(central) Africa to West Africa closer to less than 3000ya. Maybe closer to the end of the AEian period
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[qb] Really? This is all you have after your introduction rant about having "contacted researchers" and "lying Europeans"? I'm thinking I'm going to be blown away by these excerpts. Pure bait.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:

“Bantus’” came from the East very recently.




xyyman says there was a migration of bantus from East Africa to West Africa (and elsewhere) and it happened recently that what Europeans call the "bantu migration"
I asked him when did this happen but he went into hiding


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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The Europeans are calling the recent supposed migration less than 3000ya from West Africa to East Africa the ‘Bantu Expansion’. There is no genetic proof of that.

You're not even trying [Roll Eyes]
 -

At least put an effort in in your revision attempts.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I am saying the genetic data shows that there was a migration from East(central) Africa to West Africa closer to less than 3000ya. Maybe closer to the end of the AEian period

So you are saying about 2,000 years ago there were no bantus in West Africa. Sometime after that bantus, who were East Africans, migrated to West Africa.
Is this correct?
I need a yes or no so we can move on, thanks

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xyyman
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Lol! What does that prove? You are not keeping up youngsta. More recent studies using mtDNA has also debunked the Bantu Expansion Theory. SMH

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The Europeans are calling the recent supposed migration less than 3000ya from West Africa to East Africa the ‘Bantu Expansion’. There is no genetic proof of that.

You're not even trying [Roll Eyes]
 -

At least put an effort in in your revision attempts.


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xyyman
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No. I am saying the humans that occupied Western Africa, about 2000bc and before (not sure the tropical belt was occupied) were not E-M2. E-M2 mutation occurred in East Africa about 5000BC. Then the haplogroup migrated westwards after that. Just I have proven R-1b-M269 is NOT of the Steppes, I am convinced E-M2 is NOT a West African mutation and it occurred in East Africa and occupied West Africa very recently. I wouldn't be surprised when the aDNA results start coming out that ancient "Western" Africans will carry R1b(V88 etc), A and older lineage. I just got another study where Native American haplogroup is found in Cape Verde to the surprise of the research team.


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I am saying the genetic data shows that there was a migration from East(central) Africa to West Africa closer to less than 3000ya. Maybe closer to the end of the AEian period

So you are saying about 2,000 years ago there were no bantus in West Africa. Sometime after that bantus, who were East Africans, migrated to West Africa.
Is this correct?
I need a yes or no so we can move on, thanks


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

I wouldn't be surprised when the DNA results start coming out that ancient "Western" Africans will carry R1b(V88 etc), A and older lineage.

what is the current distribution and coalescence time for V88 ?
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xyyman
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RECENT studies have put R1b-M269 at about 5000yo. Since R-V88 is older than R1b-M269 I would guesstimate that R-V88 is about 8-10,000yo. Since the diversity of R-V88 decreases towards the coast of Africa and is older in inner Africa the pattern is clear. R-V88 is found at high frequency at the EXIT points in Africa. Maurantania/Morroco, Tunisia, Siwa and the Bedoiuns of the Negev Isreal. Sources cited on ESR and on here. It is also found in the Black Persian populations of Iran. Sources cited on here and ESR. Hammer et al.

Recently R1b-M269 has been found in Pygmies and Tanzanians, the diveristy has NOT been evaluated so it is not determined if it is of colonial influence or goes back in pre-history. This may be the smoking gun.


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

I wouldn't be surprised when the DNA results start coming out that ancient "Western" Africans will carry R1b(V88 etc), A and older lineage.

what is the current distribution and coalescence time for V88 ?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
R-V88 is found at high frequency at the EXIT points in Africa. Maurantania/Morroco, Tunisia, Siwa and the Bedoiuns of the Negev Isreal. Sources cited on ESR and on here. It is also found in the Black Persian populations of Iran. Sources cited on here and ESR. Hammer et al.


It's surprising you don't know where the high frequencies of V88 are,
-after years of it being discussed

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Askia_The_Great
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I feel like emailing Ferg Somo to ask what made him come to his/her views and also to ask his opinions on recent materials.
http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/Bantu%20in%20Ancient%20Egypt.htm

But I wonder is he/she even online to email?


And again thoughts on this?

quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I want to hear yall thoughts on this.

Me being the Google scholar that I am came across this... Which was a good read.
http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/migration-and-the-yor-b-myth-of-origin

The article conclusion seems to be that the Yoruba migrated from Nubia and not "Mecca." I've heard from some Yorubas that claim they migrated from East. I've also read that the Yoruba shares some religious similarities between Nile Valley people like the Egyptians. I don't know if this is true, but just saying I have came across this material.

I know I am moving away from Bantu people but I noticed that some West African groups like the Dogon, Bamileke people, Kaba and among others also claim they come from the Nile Valley or "East." But more importantly I noticed those type of West Africans are quite recent to coastal West Africa. For example Yourbaland was not settled until the 7th century BC. But of course they could have most likely migrated from the Sahel/Sahara they could have originally originated.

Even in the Sudan today from what i was told there seems to be some Niger-Congo lineages still there. Especially the L linages. The Sarah Tiskoff study Ish Gebor posted makes sense to at least me because the Sahel could have acted as a back and forth corridor between East and West Africa.

If repeat IF the Yoruba did migrate from Nubia/Sudan I can see Lake Chad acting as a refugee/stop.
 -

Also the Yoruba Orisha Child of Obatala.
 -

Is quite similar looking to the Egyptian god Bes.
 -

But of course this can be due to sharing a common culture from the green Sahara.

Thoughts? If you think this theory is silly/a crackpot then let me know.


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Ledama Kenya
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
[QB] I feel like emailing Ferg Somo to ask what made him come to his/her views and also to ask his opinions on recent materials.
http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/Bantu%20in%20Ancient%20Egypt.htm

But I wonder is he/she even online to email?


And again thoughts on this?

Niger Kordofan languages spoken in the Sudan is just a Branch of Bantu. European linguists don't wanna admit it because it will screw up their made up theory of Bantus migrating from Nigeria/Cameroon. Nuba tribes of Sudan. The Nuba are not one tribe but many tribes with substrings. Some speaking a Niger Congo Bantu (Niger Kordofan) Bantu languages, others speaking Nilosaharan languages.
Also sickle swords and throwing knives similar to those found in Central Africa and Congo are also found all over North Sudan Kordofan State.

Fulani/Woodabe languages and other Volta Atlantic's languages are closer to Bantu than both Volta Niger and East Benue Congo languages. They know this but they won't publish it, because they will have to explain how did Bantu speakers end up in North West Africa and Senegambia.

Most Bantus are Agriculturalists, but select few are pastrolists like Kuria tribe of Kenya and Tanzania, Nyankole,Hima,Tutsi of Uganda,Rwanda and Burundi. Ngoni tribes of Tanzania, Zimbabwe and south Africa.

3000 yrs ago the whole of Eastern Nigeria, Cameroon, Congo and Central Africa was covered with thick tropical rainforest. Now tell me, what were a bunch of iron age pastrolists and Farmers doing in a heavy forested area 3000 yrs ago?. Isn't it absurd. Yes pygmies is understandable but Bantus? Also there is no evidence of Agriculture in those regions that date back more than 3kya. Which crop can you grow in a forest without sunlight?. Most of the populations living in West Africa and Sahel today either migrated from North/green Sahara or North East Africa Nile valley.

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DD'eDeN
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Xyyman: "There wasn’t a “Bantu Expansion” from the West Coast of Africa. “Bantus’” came from the East very recently."

Hmm. I'd say they came from around Egypt-Nubia during the AEgypt period, due to having advanced iron making and seed-based agriculture, cutting rainforest edge forests and highland plateaus with iron tools, burning the veg. and planting seed crops which included Asian-domesticated crops. Some went deep into the forest eg. Fang, Bira/Bila, but never adapted Pygmy-style living, instead partnering with them, and mixing with Khoisan further south.

--------------------
xyambuatlaya

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Tehutimes
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Dr.Cheikh Anta Diop wrote about Yoruba people having moved from ancient Khemet this isn't an astounding idea.
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Ledama Kenya
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[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by ELIMU:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:
[qb] Looky here brotha. People on this site knows I don't get involve in hypothetical arguments. I go where the data takes me. If you have a vivid imagination and can dream up all the "what if" scenarios in the world more power to you go write a fictional novel! I go strictly by the data.

1st. There is no genetic evidence of a Bantu Migration ever occurring. They use archeology to dream up that premise. Even in the new Skunglund paper confirms there was no Bantu migration. The chart shows Substructure in Africa and the Neolithics left East Africa(Great Lakes) and heading West and admixed with an older African. YRI had less admixture than Mende. Read the fughking paper. Agreed there was always migration along the Nile. But some heading south to South Africa, Some North to Egypt Maghreb and Europe and Levant. Some to West Africa. The genetic profile of Bantu West Africans is younger than Bantu East Africans. There never w

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xyyman
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What!!!??? did you read the thread? Your point?

Here is more...Any questions, hit me up

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1738/bantu-expansion-occur

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Even tho I moved on from this theory/thread, I deleted most of the off-topicness nonsense from all parties involved.

This thread is about possible Bantu migration from the Sudan area. Stick to that discussion or this thread gets locked.

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Andromeda2025
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http://africanhistory.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190277734.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277734-e-137

Summary and Keywords
In the early 21st century, understanding West Africa’s Stone Age past has increasingly transcended its colonial legacy to become central to research on human origins. Part of this process has included shedding the methodologies and nomenclatures of narrative approaches to focus on more quantified, scientific descriptions of artifact variability and context. Together with a growing number of chronometric age estimates and environmental information, understanding the West African Stone Age is contributing evolutionary and demographic insights relevant to the entire continent.

Undated Acheulean artifacts are abundant across the region, attesting to the presence of archaic Homo. The emerging chronometric record of the Middle Stone Age (MSA) indicates that core and flake technologies have been present in West Africa since at least the Middle Pleistocene (~780–126 thousand years ago or ka) and that they persisted until the Terminal Pleistocene/Holocene boundary (~12ka)—the youngest examples of such technology anywhere in Africa. Although the presence of MSA populations in forests remains an open question, technological differences may correlate with various ecological zones. Later Stone Age (LSA) populations evidence significant technological diversification, including both microlithic and macrolithic traditions. The limited biological evidence also demonstrates that at least some of these populations manifested a unique mixture of modern and archaic morphological features, drawing West Africa into debates about possible admixture events between late-surviving archaic populations and Homo sapiens. As in other regions of Africa, it is possible that population movements throughout the Stone Age were influenced by ecological bridges and barriers. West Africa evidences a number of refugia and ecological bottlenecks that may have played such a role in human prehistory in the region. By the end of the Stone Age, West African groups became increasingly sedentary, engaging in the construction of durable monuments and intensifying wild food exploitation.

Keywords: Stone Age, West Africa, human evolution, prehistory, archaeology

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xyyman
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^Nice link
I think your write-up is on point and corroborates Skoglund et al 2017. And the genetic data emerging supports that. @K2 Europeans are more African than non-African. Skoglund’s paper states the some West African has more archaic admixture than others(Mende vs YRI). These “archaic” humans came about AFTER the divergence of Neanderthal and modern humans but before the divergence of Khoi-San. Keep in mind A00 and A1* in West Africa and Cape Verde respectively. And the genetic connection between Cape Verde and South Africa(Lioness sourced). So obviously An ancient population existed in West Africa which was different to the population that existed in South Africa. Skoglund et al. But the issue here is ..was there a Bantu expansion. Ie migration from West Africa to East Africa and South Africa ~4000years ago? The answer is a resounding no!!!!!!! Skoglund data shows the migration from East Africa/Great Lakes East to North Africa/Eurasia, West to West Africa and South to Southern Africa. Consistent to what I proposed a long time ago. These Holocene African from East African Great Lakes admixed with EXISTING population. There was never a migration from West to East. EM-2 is YOUNGER in West Africa making E-M2 the male counter-part during the past 4000years heading West. The female version (pre-5000BCE)is NOT L2* but maybe L0*. The migration of L2* and E-M2 from Cameroon is absolute NONSENSE. The Bantu Expansion is nonsense.


The peopling of the Sahara(during the late Holocene) was primarily done by ancient East Africans (M-35 and L3N)


QUOTE:
“Fossils
The earliest human fossils from West Africa date to the Terminal Pleistocene/Early Holocene. Discovered in 1965, the rockshelter of Iwo Eleru in southern Nigeria yielded a human calvaria dating to between ~11.7 and 16.3 ka.110 No other West African fossils yet date to a period as early as this. The calvaria is distinctive because it features a mix of archaic and derived features more typical of Middle and Late Pleistocene individuals than contemporary human populations from elsewhere in Africa. The archaic features of Iwo Eleru’s neuro-cranium has suggested introgression of archaic genes into the modern human gene pool to some researchers or the survival of isolated populations with archaic morphology in regions of Africa more recently than previously assumed.111 The fossils date to the same timeframe as the final MSA in Senegal, albeit in a different cultural context. This provides independent evidence to support the persistence of both biologically and culturally “anachronistic” populations in West Africa.

The fossil has also been analyzed to evaluate population-level hypotheses regarding early and mid-Holocene population expansions. In particular, West Africa is one of the potential source areas for populations expanding into the Sahara with the onset of the African Humid Period. However, there are significant morphological differences between the Iwo Eleru specimen and early Holocene samples, including those from Gobero (~10ka) in the Sahara.112 These results suggest that the peopling of the Sahara during the Holocene did not, at least immediately, involve populations from tropical West Africa.

Genetics
There is no ancient DNA from West Africa at present. Genetic studies have instead focused on contemporary DNA to infer past demographic processes in West Africa. However, this has proved to be extremely problematic, and results are often uncritically incorporated into narratives of past demographic changes. Gene trees are not population histories, and West African demographic history, as with most of the rest of the African continent, was complex. The **distributions of modern populations **cannot be taken to reflect those of past populations, thus problematizing many of the conclusions in genetic phylogeography.

Genetic research has been much quicker to recognize West Africa’s potential in studies of human origins, compared to archaeology. Continentally distributed fossil and genetic lines of evidence have suggested for some time that a high degree of population structure (subdivision) existed in the African Pleistocene.113 This structure appears to have both significant time depth and persistence across the African continent. Although the Iwo Eleru calvaria is unique in West Africa, a few Late Pleistocene specimens from Central Africa exhibit comparable features, suggesting that West and Central African Pleistocene populations may have been relatively isolated from others in North, East, and Southern Africa (e.g., Crevecoeur et al.114). Both regions are now also associated with possible late-surviving archaic human introgression into the modern human gene pool.115 However, without an archaic reference genome, it is currently difficult to test these models. Nevertheless, the recognition of African multiregionalism, along with the complex hybridization processes now known to have taken place in Eurasia, has opened up new realms of possibilities. In this context, models of archaic-modern human hybridization within Africa itself and the late persistence of archaic populations in backwaters and isolated regions of the continent are entirely possible.”

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Also Keep in mind Basal Eurasian is found THROUGHOUT Africa. Even the older Pygmies carry a significant proportion of “European” ancestry!!! That is why focusing on Tanzanian_LUxMandra carrying 55% European ancestry is dishonest by liberal white people like Capra and others. Deflection!!?? The big issue is the high percentage of “European” ancestry in MButi and Malawi_hora-8100BP.!!! Remember the same MButi carry DERIVED SLC45A2. Ha! Ha! HA!

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Elmaestro
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@Andromeda
..That is a good read. Though I don't think the forum is generally interested it'll make a good stand alone thread tbh.

@Xyyman, I haven't had much time lately but I'm about to hit you with the "I told you so's" when I do now that you're back. In the mean time, Can I get a source for the Euro (specifically slc45a2) ancestry in Mbuti?

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xyyman
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Agreed it will make a good stand alone thread...

Nice lead Andromeda..

Iwo Eleru's place among Late Pleistocene and Early Holocene populations of North and East Africa
Author links open overlay panelChristopher M.Stojanowski
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https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2014.02.018Get rights and content

Abstract
The Iwo Eleru site in Nigeria preserves the only terminal Pleistocene fossil from tropical West Africa. The peoples of this region contributed to significant population movements throughout the continent during the Holocene. As such, characterizing the phenotype of Late Pleistocene West African populations is critical for disentangling the evolutionary signatures of a highly complex African population history and structure. Previous research approached the calvaria's morphology from a paleoanthropological perspective, noting its mosaic of archaic and modern neurocranial features and distinctiveness from Pleistocene fossil taxa and contemporary modern human samples. In this paper, I compare Iwo Eleru with contemporary Late Pleistocene Africans and also consider the specimen's affinities with Holocene populations of the central and western Sahara, Nile Valley, and East Africa. Craniometric data were recorded for 22 neurocranial dimensions and subjected to principal components analysis and Mahalanobis distance estimation. Multidimensional scaling of distances indicated that Iwo Eleru fell outside the observed range of variation of other terminal Pleistocene supra-equatorial African populations, confirming previous results that documented its divergence from Neanderthals, Upper Paleolithic Europeans, and modern Africans. The calvaria was also distinct from Holocene Saharan, Nile Valley, and East African populations, which suggests limited West African input into the Sahara during the African Humid Period. Results presented here bolster previous research that suggested Iwo Eleru's anatomy reflected either admixture with archaic humans or the long-term survival of populations with more archaic neurocranial anatomy until the end of the Pleistocene.

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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@ElMaestro


oops! wrong photo

From:
Systematic identification of DNA variants associated with ultraviolet radiation using a novel Geographic-Wide Association Study (GeoWAS) Irving Hsu1,2,3

Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2609/europeans-white#ixzz53txoRpva

Not only MButi but Paupans @ close to 45%. Got! ya!

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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The above corroborates Skoglund et al. Modern West Africans are NOT indigenous to West Africa. West Africa occupied by humans, yes, but NOT by modern West Africans. This population probably died out or got assimilated. A00? Convergent evolution?

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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