Present location KUNSTHISTORISCHES MUSEUM [09/001]
International Inventory number 09/001/4907
Inventory number 3896b
Designation Head of a Beduin from Syria
Archaeological Site UNKNOWN
Provenance LOWER EGYPT: GOVERNORATE OF QALYUBIYA: TELL EL-YHUDIYA
Materials MAN MADE MATERIAL: FAIENCE
___________________________________
I'm assuming that Getty Images has this picture wrongly identified as a Nubian due to the hair style and beard but I can't find a direct link to the KUNSTHISTORISCHES MUSEUM for a description "Head of a Beduin from Syria"
Theban Mapping Project's caption:
"Book of Gates, fourth division (P)/fifth hour (H), lower register, scene 30: Syrian and Nubian, two of the "four races of mankind.""
Also I'm getting error messages for the image search and New Photo Database at the Theban Mapping Project
Egypt, Luxor, Ancient Thebes, Valley of the Kings, Ramesse III's Tomb, detail of the frescos, Nubian manservant, New Kingdom, XIX Dynasty, Ramesse II, 1290-1224 b.
quote:show me another one with that hairstyle and head band that is not one of these other Ramses III faience tiles
Now what? What excuse you're gonna have now to 'convince' people that the dark skinned man is not really an authentic depiction of some Bronze Age Syrians?
But you want people to consider a random stock image website that not only speculates the man is a Nubian, but a Nubian slave of all things? Right..
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quote:show me another one with that hairstyle and head band that is not one of these other Ramses III faience tiles
Now what? What excuse you're gonna have now to 'convince' people that the dark skinned man is not really an authentic depiction of some Bronze Age Syrians?
But you want people to consider a random stock image website that not only speculates the man is a Nubian, but a Nubian slave of all things? Right..
read this again
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm assuming that Getty Images has this picture wrongly identified as a Nubian due to the hair style and beard but I can't find a direct link to the KUNSTHISTORISCHES MUSEUM for a description "Head of a Beduin from Syria"
I am looking for a primary source that identifies these in any way and what it's based on
the examples you posted does not have the hair going up into the headband like these
what you posted has the hair under the head band not going through it
Likewise here, third from left , considered Syrian, the headband is over the hair But the fourth figure considered Shasu (Beduoin) has the hair going through the headband (which is also different from the Sea People who have the hair going straight up through the headband that doesn't fall back in a curve. No, I don't think these are Nubian but who are they and why
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posted
lol none of those sites you listed are peer-reviewed sites, but instead random image site. Nice try though.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: lol none of those sites you listed are peer-reviewed sites, but instead random image site. Nice try though.
Again read this:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm assuming that Getty Images has this picture wrongly identified as a Nubian due to the hair style and beard but I can't find a direct link to the KUNSTHISTORISCHES MUSEUM for a description "Head of a Beduin from Syria"
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: lol none of those sites you listed are peer-reviewed sites, but instead random image site. Nice try though.
This person is of unknown origin. So far you have not produced a peer reviewed source about it.
so far the best I could find is the globalegyptianmuseum.org website which is pretty good and they list the location KUNSTHISTORISCHES MUSEUM and call it a Syrian but I want to see if that museum identified it as such or a book or article
But it may be Shasu or some other group which the Egyptians distinguished from Syrians as I have shown
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posted
LOL when I first came here on Egyptsearch ! I identified them as being from the Cairo Museum, second floor. I then later discovered the links to KUNSTHISTORISCHES MUSEUM, Remember?
quote:At a rough estimate, over 2 million objects from ancient Egypt are kept in about 850 public collections, dispersed over 69 countries around the world. This website aims to collect them into a global virtual museum, which can be visited at any time, from any place. The Global Egyptian Museum is a long-term project, carried out under the aegis of the International Committee for Egyptology (CIPEG).
The Basic Mode, currently showcasing 1340 highlights, is geared to the interested public. A glossary of more than 400 items explains Egyptian terms and themes. Many objects are provided with audio comments and 3D-movies.
The Advanced Mode, equiped with a powerfull search and data entry engine, opens up the full database - presently 14975 objects - to professionals and amateurs.
Kids! offers information for children at the age of 8-12 years in an interactive way.
Supported by CIPEG Committee of the International Council of Museums (ICOM/UNESCO)
Lioness, your sources show that they are willing to corrupt history, without a hassle. Lioness, do we need to discuss again who inhabited the region of the Levant?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The basic purpose of this thread is to show how Getty Images and alarmy has wrong things in their descriptions
and to determine of what ethnic group this person is with primary text from a physical museum and to also compare it to other figures which have this particular headband hair style where the hair goes through the headband and then falls down curving back
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The basic purpose of this thread is to show how Getty Images and alarmy has wrong things in their descriptions
and to determine of what ethnic group this person is with primary text from a physical museum and to also compare it to other figures which have this particular headband hair style where the hair goes through the headband and then falls down curving back
We still have ethic people like these in the region of the Levant. It's hard to determine which ethic group they represented back then. For such you need ancient texts and archeology.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Wall Tile Depicting an Asian Captive Period: New Kingdom, Ramesside Dynasty: Dynasty 20 Reign: reign of Ramesses III Date: ca. 1200–1085 B.C. Geography: Egypt, Upper Egypt; Thebes, Medinet Habu Medium: Faience
Glazed polychrome tile from the palace of Rameses III at Tell el-Yahudieh Egypt depicting an Asiatic prisoner 12th century BCE Photographed at The British Museum in London, United Kingdom.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [QB] ^Aren't those from Asia Minor?
why are you claiming that the Egyptians depicted Anatolians and that those are Anatolians?
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [QB] ^Aren't those from Asia Minor?
why are you claiming that the Egyptians depicted Anatolians and that those are Anatolians?
I said Asia Minor. You say Anatolians. But if you want to refer to it like that, so be it. But yes, I do think these are the hittite.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
So, your argument is that a triviality like a variation in the way the Bronze Age Syrian wears his headband justifies a new investigation into whether he's really Syrian? Ok. Well, let us know the answer when you've conducted a thorough investigation on stock image sites.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: So, your argument is that a triviality like a variation in the way the Bronze Age Syrian wears his headband justifies a new investigation into whether he's really Syrian? Ok. Well, let us know the answer when you've conducted a thorough investigation on stock image sites.
another false argument. No proof or sources other than what I have mentioned has been presented that this depicts a Syrian:
I do not believe it it to be a Nubian. However I have not yet seen a credible explanation as to why this is a Syrian rather than a Shasu or some other group. I put up the Getty images as "Nubian" because I was surprised that often they are fairly accurate but probably not in this case
If you were to say "anybody with a headband in Egyptian art is a Syrian" show me a reference so the readership know it's not just you making it up
Lazy people not doing research need not apply
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or other sources to additional sources confirming or disconfirming the identities of each of these as well as alternate photo source for figures 3, 4 and 5
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Isn't that guy a Shasu I.e., far south Levantine, possibly forerunner of * Midianite * Moabite * Edomite or * Nabataean peoples of the Negeb and northeast Sinai?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: So, your argument is that a triviality like a variation in the way the Bronze Age Syrian wears his headband justifies a new investigation into whether he's really Syrian? Ok. Well, let us know the answer when you've conducted a thorough investigation on stock image sites.
another false argument. No proof or sources other than what I have mentioned has been presented that this depicts a Syrian:
I do not believe it it to be a Nubian. However I have not yet seen a credible explanation as to why this is a Syrian rather than a Shasu or some other group. I put up the Getty images as "Nubian" because I was surprised that often they are fairly accurate but probably not in this case
If you were to say "anybody with a headband in Egyptian art is a Syrian" show me a reference so the readership know it's not just you making it up
Lazy people not doing research need not apply
I was being facetious to a certain extent (you already clarified), but still, I take issue with the trivialities you're harping on. There are only so many 'types' known to the Egyptians and most of them recur again and again. We already know he's not African (geographically speaking) most likely. We already know that by the Late Bronze Age, pale skin and 'tanned' skin was common in the Middle East. At least per Egyptian art. So how many options do you have to place him?
Please give a bullet list of possible origins other than Syrian. Let's see what that "some other group", as you put it, means.
EDIT: Actually, on second thought, I don't think he's northern Arabian. So ignore that last entry.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I was being facetious to a certain extent (you already clarified), but still, I take issue with the trivialities you're harping on. There are only so many 'types' known to the Egyptians and most of them recur again and again. We already know he's not African (geographically speaking) most likely.
"not likely " doesn't cut it, research
-and tell us why in your opinion, "not likely" African (geographically speaking)
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
EDIT: Actually, on second thought,
what is this, stream of consciousness?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: "not likely " doesn't cut it, research
IF there is no inscription conveying who it is it's always "most likely". Do you think the books you're looking for have something better to offer than "most likely"?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: -and tell us why in your opinion, "not likely" African (geographically speaking)
Simply based on precedents in Egyptian art. I can't recall any African stereotyped as having a combination of full facial hair, somewhat aquiline nose, headband, long hair pulled back in the context of a 9 bows scene or some 'table of nations' scene. Plus, we have that light skin guy with the same features. That's a hint in and of itself that the dark skinned variant is likely not meant to represent a group of Africans (again, geographically speaking).
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Taking my cue from Diop (1974) I consulted Lepsius' Denkmalër for Ramses III rows of Levantine prisoners on the Great Temple walls at Medinet Habu.
This inscription allows us to ethnically identify Shasu by their 'national' du styling Image restored 14MAY2020
Thus the following are Shasu by the very same ethnic trait.
Ramses III scribe associates the people of Mt Seir with the Shasu tribal confederation so in particular we have Edomites as in the list of my previous post. These are far southern Levantines bordering Arabia.
They are by no means any kind of Syrian, peoples who border Turkey.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: "not likely " doesn't cut it, research
IF there is no inscription conveying who it is it's always "most likely". Do you think the books you're looking for have something better to offer than "most likely"?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: -and tell us why in your opinion, "not likely" African (geographically speaking)
Simply based on precedents in Egyptian art. I can't recall any African stereotyped as having a combination of full facial hair, somewhat aquiline nose, headband, long hair pulled back in the context of a 9 bows scene or some 'table of nations' scene. Plus, we have that light skin guy with the same features. That's a hint in and of itself that the dark skinned variant is likely not meant to represent a group of Africans (again, geographically speaking).
Not only that, but they don't even have any clothing that are culturally CONSISTENT with those seen in Nile Valley culture like leopard skin for example.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Hebrew literature metaphorically informs us Kush was on both sides of the Red Sea.
Yithro the sheikh of Midian his daughter Ziporah the Midyan woman is the Kushite Miriam sister of Moses was talking about his wife
I take it the darkest Shasu could rep for Midyan whether or not Midyan = Medja as some like the lovely and learned Dana Marniche have supposed true. th
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Originally posted by Tukuler: thenile.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/sutra2898.php&highlight=hays#2898
[quote="alTakruri"][size=9]Something I wrote back in 1998 in response to an article on Kush in Bible Review. However, when they printed the letter they edited out everything I wrote about the Kushite Arabs and Jeremiah's logic concerning leopards, Kushites and sin. Actually their editing wasn't a bad job but it did leave intact the modern anthropological limited view about which people are black in the eyes of the ancients.[/size]
==============================================
Your copyless August cover speaks volumes. The contents page promises that J. Daniel Hays is going to show that yes, there is something out of Africa and it effected the Middle East as well as Greece! I wonder what challenges the readers will make to this article.
I found this foray into one African peoples contributions to the ancient Bible world refreshing and timely. I really enjoyed the article. The switching of notes 28 and 32 threw me off for a moment. So did the Cushite vs Arab dichotomy in note 11. I don't think the term Cush was only a specific for the Cushite nation proper, but applied to all very dark skinned nations or individuals as well. Only the context will tell which is meant.
For instance,Herodotus let's us know that Cushites were in Asia and Africa when he mentions eastern and western Cushites differentiated by hair texture. And Josephus mentions the Western Cushites and seems to class the Sabaeans with them.(Antiquities I.vi.2)
Zerah was most likely a Western Cushite, for the reasons given in the article. But why can't an Arab be Cushite? GENESIS places a Sheba and Dedan in both Shem (GEN 25:2) and Ham's (GEN 10:17) territorial lineage.
code:
(Ham -> Cush -> Ra`amah -> Sheba and Dedan)
(Shem - -> `Eber -> Joktan -> Sheba)
(Abraham -> Jokshan -> Sheba and Dedan) (Abraham -> Midian)
Cushites and Arabians are coupled in Psa 72:10, II Chr 21:16 and especially Isa 43:3. In Arabic the title, [color=darkblue]Zirrih[/color] (magnificent) has the same triliteral root as Zerah. Arabic, Egyptian and Hebrew are all "Afro-Asian" languages.
The incident involving Moses' wife also shows an Arabian Cush. In Exodus Moses only has one wife, Zipporah the Midianite. Miriam calls her a Cushite. The extra-Biblical Ethiopian wife does not travel with Israel in Sinai. Extra-biblical sources do not present her as ever leaving Ethiopia. So Miriam's Cushite is evidently also a Midianite and so Hab 3:7 grouping Cushan with Midian.
Anthropolgy is loathe to classify Africans, Arabs and Indians as one ethnic taxon based on color. The ancients did. It's similar to the moderns classifying Europeans, Arabs, Indians and even Ethiopians as Caucasians.
Was Elijah fed by crows or Arabs or a clan called the Crows of the Arabs? For the Hebrew speakers Arabs, evening, and crows come from the same root and the word play on dusky color is intended.
For me there's no trouble with [color=darkblue]saris[/color] translated as both official and eunuch. Were ancient Semites anything like the Muslim Ottomans? If so, the Kizlar Aghassis testify to the second highest office being in the hands of a "Cushite" eunuch. Why were officials also often eunuchs? There are no worries of lineal ambition leading to disloyal activities.
In Hebrew, to this day, [color=darkblue]Cushi[/color] means a "black"-skinned person. The Israelites evidently had Cushites in their ranks. In the Bible Israelites named Cushi are Yehudi ben Kushi (Jer 36:14), Zephaniah ben Kushi (Zep 1:1) and Kush ben-Yemini (Psa 7:1). The Talmud even refers to Saul in Cushite terms.
Rabbinic midrash makes this all metaphorical though. The reasoning is that Cushi means outstanding. The Greeks thought of the Ethiopians as outstanding too. To them, the people with longest lifespan, the tallest height, the handsomest faces and the most pious actions were Ethiopians.
In light of the above Jer 13:23 can bear a new interpretation. Is there anything intrinsically wicked about Cushites or leopards? Cushites were salesmans of live leopards and leopard skins all over the ancient world. Who'd buy a spotless leopard skin? The spots are its beauty. The Cushites skin is his beauty.
The prophet siezes on this common market connection to sound home his point. "Would the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do GOOD that are accustomed to do evil." Answering the question yes destroys the logical conlusion. Be steadfast in doing good and don't exchange it for evil. Be unchanging in doing good instead of flopping with the worthlessness of evil.
J. Daniel Hays, thanks for something delightfully different in Bible Review.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Blessedbyhorus: Not only that, but they don't even have any clothing that are culturally CONSISTENT with those seen in Nile Valley culture like leopard skin for example.
AE were skillful in their literature in terms of helping their audience understand what they were trying to convey. It wasn't like, say, Assyrian bass reliefs where you can't even tell ethnicity most of the time.
As a side note:
Note that Egyptian and Assyrian documents agree that headbands were staples in the (Greater) Syrian wardrobe. Assyrians generally don't depict Arabs as wearing these headbands as far as I can tell.
So, this headband the dark skinned man is wearing is obviously relevant in terms of placing him somewhere in this region. Hence, why I came back on my hasty initial inclusion of northern Arabia (Assyrians generally don't depict Arabs as wearing these headbands).
Some Bronze Age Semitic speaker (presumably Mesopotamian) with headband below. Note he has the same stringy hairstyle (braids [?]) as the two men on the Egyptian ceramic tiles we're discussing right now. Just like the Egyptian depictions his headband follows his hairline (i.e. it runs diagonally as opposed to winding around his head horizontally): Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Originally posted by Tukuler: thenile.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/sutra2898.php&highlight=hays#2898
[quote="alTakruri"][size=9]Something I wrote back in 1998 in response to an article on Kush in Bible Review. However, when they printed the letter they edited out everything I wrote about the Kushite Arabs and Jeremiah's logic concerning leopards, Kushites and sin. Actually their editing wasn't a bad job but it did leave intact the modern anthropological limited view about which people are black in the eyes of the ancients.[/size]
==============================================
Your copyless August cover speaks volumes. The contents page promises that J. Daniel Hays is going to show that yes, there is something out of Africa and it effected the Middle East as well as Greece! I wonder what challenges the readers will make to this article.
I found this foray into one African peoples contributions to the ancient Bible world refreshing and timely. I really enjoyed the article. The switching of notes 28 and 32 threw me off for a moment. So did the Cushite vs Arab dichotomy in note 11. I don't think the term Cush was only a specific for the Cushite nation proper, but applied to all very dark skinned nations or individuals as well. Only the context will tell which is meant.
For instance,Herodotus let's us know that Cushites were in Asia and Africa when he mentions eastern and western Cushites differentiated by hair texture. And Josephus mentions the Western Cushites and seems to class the Sabaeans with them.(Antiquities I.vi.2)
Zerah was most likely a Western Cushite, for the reasons given in the article. But why can't an Arab be Cushite? GENESIS places a Sheba and Dedan in both Shem (GEN 25:2) and Ham's (GEN 10:17) territorial lineage.
code:
(Ham -> Cush -> Ra`amah -> Sheba and Dedan)
(Shem - -> `Eber -> Joktan -> Sheba)
(Abraham -> Jokshan -> Sheba and Dedan) (Abraham -> Midian)
Cushites and Arabians are coupled in Psa 72:10, II Chr 21:16 and especially Isa 43:3. In Arabic the title, [color=darkblue]Zirrih[/color] (magnificent) has the same triliteral root as Zerah. Arabic, Egyptian and Hebrew are all "Afro-Asian" languages.
The incident involving Moses' wife also shows an Arabian Cush. In Exodus Moses only has one wife, Zipporah the Midianite. Miriam calls her a Cushite. The extra-Biblical Ethiopian wife does not travel with Israel in Sinai. Extra-biblical sources do not present her as ever leaving Ethiopia. So Miriam's Cushite is evidently also a Midianite and so Hab 3:7 grouping Cushan with Midian.
Anthropolgy is loathe to classify Africans, Arabs and Indians as one ethnic taxon based on color. The ancients did. It's similar to the moderns classifying Europeans, Arabs, Indians and even Ethiopians as Caucasians.
Was Elijah fed by crows or Arabs or a clan called the Crows of the Arabs? For the Hebrew speakers Arabs, evening, and crows come from the same root and the word play on dusky color is intended.
For me there's no trouble with [color=darkblue]saris[/color] translated as both official and eunuch. Were ancient Semites anything like the Muslim Ottomans? If so, the Kizlar Aghassis testify to the second highest office being in the hands of a "Cushite" eunuch. Why were officials also often eunuchs? There are no worries of lineal ambition leading to disloyal activities.
In Hebrew, to this day, [color=darkblue]Cushi[/color] means a "black"-skinned person. The Israelites evidently had Cushites in their ranks. In the Bible Israelites named Cushi are Yehudi ben Kushi (Jer 36:14), Zephaniah ben Kushi (Zep 1:1) and Kush ben-Yemini (Psa 7:1). The Talmud even refers to Saul in Cushite terms.
Rabbinic midrash makes this all metaphorical though. The reasoning is that Cushi means outstanding. The Greeks thought of the Ethiopians as outstanding too. To them, the people with longest lifespan, the tallest height, the handsomest faces and the most pious actions were Ethiopians.
In light of the above Jer 13:23 can bear a new interpretation. Is there anything intrinsically wicked about Cushites or leopards? Cushites were salesmans of live leopards and leopard skins all over the ancient world. Who'd buy a spotless leopard skin? The spots are its beauty. The Cushites skin is his beauty.
The prophet siezes on this common market connection to sound home his point. "Would the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do GOOD that are accustomed to do evil." Answering the question yes destroys the logical conlusion. Be steadfast in doing good and don't exchange it for evil. Be unchanging in doing good instead of flopping with the worthlessness of evil.
J. Daniel Hays, thanks for something delightfully different in Bible Review.
I agree on the skin and leopard part but I don't see a huge connection between the Cushites and Arabs as far as the Biblical narrative. I agree also that the territory of Cush if viewed in the broadest sense, would include territory on both sides of the Red Sea which would cover not only Arabia but Mesopotamia. hence, in Genesis 10, Nimrod, son of Cush founded Nineveh and other important centers. But this would be an early large scale civ building in the most productive areas, not the deserts of Arabia, as far as I can see. Psalm 72:10 seems to link the Canaanites, various other Gentiles, and Sheba - the Yemen zone, not Arabia per se. As we know Yemen, and that whole zone near the Red Sea and Horn of Africa stand by themselves as centers of civ, long before any Arabs per se showed up. Arabs may now dominate the area, but they are latecomers as far as the record goes. Isaiah 43 likewise is about Seba, who is a son of Cush, and not linked with the late-coming Arabs at that time.
Here's a modified recap from another thread re so called (and bogus) "Curse of Ham" for the new folks:
1) Cush/Kush brother of Mizraim which means Egypt. We know from studies that the closest people to the Egyptians are Nubians/Sudanics, not Yemenis, Arabs, or today's Ethiopians. 'Cush" also refers to people south of Egypt.
2) Cush/Kush means "black" in Hebrew- used sometimes in clear reference to dark skin- "Can the Cushite or Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?" asks Jeremiah. The use of "Cushite" is linked closer to Egypt and Kush in the Bible generally refers to the Sudan, close to Egypt not today's Ethiopia, or Arabia.
3) Genesis 10: Nimrod, son of Cush founded rh first large scale empires after the Biblical flood beginning with Nineveh- so the lineage of "Cush" extends into Yemen, Arabia, Mesopotamia with some overlap into East/NE/N Africa. So there are 2 aspects of "Cush" in the Bible. In a broad sense- Cush would take in a vast Middle Eastern zone and parts of Africa, but this would be a very ancient timeline, long before Arabs and their language rose to prominence.
4) Numbers 12 where they get upset at Moses wife- specifically references the word Cushite. This might point to the Sinai - Egyptian area near the Red SEa, the main connection/proximity being Egypt and Sinai, - not so much Arabs. It would make sense that Moses fleeing on foot would find refuge somewhere near Sinai rather than traveling hundreds of miles across desert sands to head into Arabia. "And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had taken; for he had taken a Cushite as wife." --Numbers 12:1
5) Acts 8- the Ethiopian chariot rider that was converted by the Apostle Phillip was called a Cushite or "Ethiopian" who served as administrator of the treasure of his queen- Candace. The Candaces are located in the Sudan not the Horn- again near Egypt. It was these same Candace that won some victories against Rome and negotiated a successfull and advantageous peace treaty that exempted the Cushites from payingthe Romans tribute
6) Zerah the Ethiopian came out against Asa king of Judah in 2 Chronicles. The Jewish Encyclopedia places Zerah near Egypt, indeed holding that he was an Egyptian pharaoh (Osorkon II). The Biblical narrative says he was an Ethiopian, literally "Cushite" as footnotes to the good, detailed translations show. This again shows that Cush, in this context, is identified with the region of Egypt/Nubia/Sudan.
7) The Sons of Mizraim are those renowned for handling the bow and shield- Cush, Lud etc Jeremiah 46:9- "let the mighty men go forth: Cush and Phut that handle the shield, and the Ludim that handle the bow." Isa 66:19 also refers to Pul or Put and Lud "that draw the bow."
8) Per scholar David Goldenberg 2003 The Curse of Ham: "In a description of the foreign contingents in the Egyptian army at the battle of Carchemish in 605 B.C.E, Jer 46:9 says: "Let the warriors go forth, Kush and Put who grasp the shield. And the Ludim who grasp and draw the bow.".. However because Lud is grouped with Kush in Jer 46:9 and Ezek 30:5 and because Put, whether it is to be identified with modern Somalia or Libya is in Africa, most scholars today agree that Lud too is in Africa. And just as the bows, so too the shields of the Kushites must have made an impression. Apparently their striking feature was also their size. Similarly Strabo (17.1.54) mentions the Ethiopians' long oblong shields." --David M. Goldenberg. The Curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
9) As Goldenberg shows the Biblical text often groups Cush, Put, Lud etc together. They are all related- sons of Ham or sons of Mizraim (Egypt). This again leans the weight towards the Egyptian-Sudanic side not the Horn, or Arabia.
10) The Pharaoh who came to help his Hebrew ally against the Assyrians was Shebitku, who came from Kush (or Nubia), located in what it today northern Sudan. He sent an expeditionary army to Jerusalem headed by his 21-year-old cousin, Taharqa, ((2 Kings 19:9; Isaiah 37:9) Again this shows the weight of things towards the Sudanic-Nubian-Egyptian area or zone in the Bible text..
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
* Nimrod did not found Nineveh. He drove Asshur out of Shinar who went north and did that.
* Kush doesn't mean black in Hebrew. Its a personal/place name with derivatives. It is not a Hebrew root. It probably entered Hebrew from Egyptian where in turn it probably came from the word Qevs in an ancient Sudan language.
The Hebrew word meaning black is shechora as in black and beautiful.
* That Arabia only refers to modern Saudia etc is a fallacy. Arabia Petrea included the Araba (southernmost Israel and Jordan) and the adjacent sectors of Sinai.
Mythologically Abraham is the father and Egyptian Hagar is the mother of the Ishmaelites (al Arab ul Muta'aribah). Keturah, considered an alias of Hagar, is also mother to a set of Mutaribes. Midian is her son.
The Oxford Bible Atlas places Midian on the east side of the Gulf of Aqaba which today is NW Saudi Arabia.
* Kush appears 27 times in TaNaKh each of which as a place name refers to ancient Nubia & Sudan. In one instance Kush is the name of an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin.
Kushi, 29 times, is a personal name of three Israelites including the prophet Zephaniah, and an appellation of three non-Israelites.
The bulk usage is for plural of ancient Nubians & Sudanese.
One case distinguishes a set of Arabs from neighboring Kushiym. Those particular Arabs allied with Palestinians against king Jehoram.
Kushan is not in continental Africa. It is coupled with Midian.
* Sheba and Dedan appear on both sides of the Red Sea. The Sabaeans (Saba) had a Two Shore Empire and were all Arab ul Aribah or "pure" Arabian Kushites. This would be the Abyssinia - Yemen connection seen historically in the Habesh and by the Bilqis/Makeda legend both modern countries claim as their own.
Without contrary contextual inference Kush et all in ancient Hebrew literature refers to continental Africa(ns) but doesn't negate the fact that Kush also designates Arabian tectonic plate places and people(s).
Bias against today's Arab/Arabian peoples who themselves admit to mostly being al Arab ul Musta'ribah will not change the ancient record including ancient Indian usage of Cusha Dwipa for Arabia.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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^^ website Global Egyptian museum citing KUNSTHISTORISCHES MUSEUM say this is a Syrian
But I say wrong it's Shasu >
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Taking my cue from Diop (1974) I consulted Lepsius' Denkmalër for Ramses III rows of Levantine prisoners on the Great Temple walls at Medinet Habu.
This inscription allows us to ethnically identify Shasu by their 'national' du styling
Thus the following are Shasu by the very same ethnic trait.
Wall Tile Depicting an Asian Captive Period: New Kingdom, Ramesside Dynasty: Dynasty 20 Reign: reign of Ramesses III Date: ca. 1200–1085 B.C. Geography: Egypt, Upper Egypt; Thebes, Medinet Habu Medium: Faience[/IMG]
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [QB] ^Aren't those from Asia Minor?
why are you claiming that the Egyptians depicted Anatolians and that those are Anatolians?
I said Asia Minor. You say Anatolians. But if you want to refer to it like that, so be it. But yes, I do think these are the hittite.
Now we go back to this>>>
Foreign prisoners of Ramesses III: Libyan, Nubian, Syrian, Shasu Bedouin, and Hittite
Notice;
________
1) Libyan-beard
2) Nubian -dotted pattern at top of garment
3) Syrian-dotted pattern at top of garment, beard, headband holding down hair, excess strip of headband often hangs down, hair stops at shoulders and bunches
4) Shasu-dotted pattern at top of garment, beard, headband with hair going through it
5) Hittite-hair flowing down shoulders
_________
^ Here we saw the difference in the headband of the Syrian and Shasu
Now back to this>>
-and we find correspondence with the Syrian:
dotted pattern at top of garment, beard, headband holding down hair, hair stops at shoulders and bunches
And back to this >>
supposed to be Hittite, maybe yes in this case-notably no beard
That is why I think the yellow skinned item with the arm bent over his head, right above this Hittite is Syrian
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Taking my cue from Diop (1974) I consulted Lepsius' Denkmalër for Ramses III rows of Levantine prisoners on the Great Temple walls at Medinet Habu.
This inscription allows us to ethnically identify Shasu by their 'national' du styling
Thus the following are Shasu by the very same ethnic trait.
Ramses III scribe associates the people of Mt Seir with the Shasu tribal confederation so in particular we have Edomites as in the list of my previous post. These are far southern Levantines bordering Arabia.
They are by no means any kind of Syrian, peoples who border Turkey.
Possible additional Shasu but identified as "Philistine" but I suspect that's wrong (see below) ________________________
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
That maroon complexioned guy, I had a bookmark from Boston Museum saying he's Philistine.
His head gear sure look Peleshti to me. His facial features seem different from most Philistines and Levantine Keftiu I've seen and his garment does too.
It's back to the art books for me though it's no real surprise to see the guy decked out in Canaanite fashion. Don't know how to distinguish Sidon and Tyre K*naani from non-Phoenicians by national costume.
This is well worth looking into because museums don't always get it right. I caught OIC labeling Lydians to be Syrian instead of LeukSyrian
posted
Based on the Peleset inscriptions, it has been suggested that the Casluhite Philistines formed part of the conjectured "Sea Peoples" who repeatedly attacked Egypt during the later Nineteenth Dynasty.[ ____________________
^^ various sea people and other Asiatics described, incl more obscure groups
PELESET PHILISTINE
Of special importance in this relief from Medinet Habu is the portrayal among the Egyptian forces of a mixed group of mercenaries drawn from the Sea Peoples. They include Sherden wearing disk-and-horns-topped helmets and probably the Peleset with their feather-topped helmets.In this rare relief, details remain of the small round shields of the Sherden with small round metal studs embroidered on the leather and wood of which the shield was more likely made. These shields and the bosses show similarity with the ones attested in some very Late Bronze Age Achaeans graves or represented on LH IIIC pottery
PELESET (Pw-r-s-ty)
One of the most significant groups among the Sea Peoples who attacked Egypt in the fifth and eighth year of Ramesses III is the Peleset. This ethnonym, which has no earlier occurrence in the Egyptian sources, has been identified with the Biblical Philistines by Jean-François Champollion soon after his decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphic. Now, the Philistines are generally considered newcomers in the Levant, settling in their pentapolis consisting of the towns Asdod, Askelon, Gaza, Ekron, and Gath at the time of the upheavals of the Sea Peoples. In the Medinet Habu relief Ramesses III fights against the Peleset both in the sea and in the land battles. Indeed in the battles against the Lybians some warriors which may be identified as Peleset have been recruited (together the Sherden) in the Ramesses III army. In the Papyrus Harris, Ramesses III claims to have settled the vanquished Sea Peoples, among which our Peleset or Philistines, in strongholds bound in his name. This has induced some scholars to assume that the settlement of the Philistines in Canaan took place under Egyptian supervision. Furthermore, the continuity of Egyptian influence in the hinterland of the Philistine pentapolis might suggest to us that the Egyptian pharaoh maintained a nominal claim on the land conquered by the Philistines and considered them as vassals guarding his frontiers. After their settlement in Palestine, the Philistines rose to a position of power in the region owing to their military superiority over the local population, as exemplified by the famous engagement between David and Goliath – which the first mentioned miraculously won against all odds.
posted
Shekelesh or Shasu? G. A. Wainwright The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology Vol. 50 (Dec., 1964), pp. 40-46 Published by: Egypt Exploration Society DOI: 10.2307/3855741 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3855741 Page Count: 7
The Sea Peoples group known as the Shekelesh are one of the less well-known and obscure groups.Not much is known about them and they are only mentioned in passing in the ancient texts, such as the annals of Ramesess III from his mortuary temple at Medinet Habu and the Ugaritic Texts.The group is also mentioned in the Kom el-Ahmar Stela from the reign of Merneptah. The Shekelesh officially make an appearance around 1220 BC attacking Egypt and again in 1186 BC invading the Delta. One of the earliest accounts of the Shekelesh occurs early in the reign of the pharaoh Merneptah.In the beginning of his fifth year of rule, the pharaoh had to face off with a Libyan invasion; which he boasts of his victory in his annals at Karnak. When Merneptah confronted his enemy, he not only faced one hostile tribe, but a alliance of Sea People groups, which consisted of the Meshwesh, the people of the island Kos, and the Lycians, who were the major forces and urged smaller tribes like the Sherden, Trysenoi, and the Shekelesh to assist in the fight against the Egyptians. Although Ramessess III gives the impression that he has completely eradicated the enemy, the Sea People groups were still a major threat in the Mediterranean. The Harris Papyrus is an important account because it seems to indicate that the Shekelesh were used as garrison forces and mercenaries by Ramessess III, along with other Sea People groups. As already mentioned also the Sheklesh together the Ekwesh, and Sherden were circumcised as states in the Great Karnak inscription of the Pharaoh Merneptah The reliefs and inscriptions at Medinet Habu are the most famous and well-known source for references to the Sea Peoples. The annals here give the most detailed account of the Sea Peoples, but only mention the Shekelesh briefly. However we are able to get a glimpse of what a Shekelesh soldier would have looked like and what accoutrements accompanied him into battle. Of the others, the Shekelesh (and the Teresh) wear cloth headdresses and a medallion on their breasts, and carry two spears and a round shield; their place of origin has been considered to be Sagalassos in Pisidia. Some scholars, such as N.K. Sandars, believe that the Shekelesh came from southeast Sicily. Indeed from other sources we learn that the "Sikeloy" were not the original inhabitants of Sicily, but migrated there from peninsular Italy. In the 8th century Greek colonists came across a group of people known as the Sikels on the island, which they believed had come from Italy after the Trojan War. Although not much is known about the Shekelesh, it is clear that they were an important element in the invasion of the Sea Peoples and played an important role in the military conquests of the coalition.I view this group as a strong and proud group of people, despite the fact that they are a more or less obscure group, mentioned infrequently in ancient texts.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote: The verb בעל (ba'al) means to exercise dominion over, or to be lord over. One group of usages deals with a man "marrying" a woman, and it should be noted that men marry women by means of the verb בעל (ba'al) but not the other way around (Genesis 20:3, Isaiah 54:1). The other, smaller, group of usages deals with owning or ruling something (Isaiah 26:13).
The derivatives of this verb are:
The ubiquitous masculine noun בעל (ba'al) meaning owner (Exodus 21:28, Isaiah 1:3), husband (Genesis 20:3, Hosea 2:18), citizen (of Jericho: Joshua 24:11; of Arnon: Numbers 21:28; of Shechem: Judges 9:2), ruler (Isaiah 16:8). The noun בעל (ba'al) is also used in a kind of proverbial sense, in playful constructions that emphasizes a certain characteristic of someone: בעל אף (ba'al ap), literally meaning lord of the snort: someone who easily gets angry (Proverbs 22:24), or בעל החכמה (ba'al hahochma), lord of the wisdoms (Ecclesiastes 7:12). The feminine noun בעלה (ba'ala), pretty much the female equivalent of the masculine counterpart, except that it can never mean wife. It's used once in the sense of lady-boss (1 Kings 17:17), and twice in constructions: בעלה אוב (ba'ala ob), "mistress of the ghost" or necromancer (1 Samuel 28:7), and בעלה כשפים (ba'ala keshepim), mistress of the witchcrafts (Nahum 3:4).
quote:The god Baal Hammon enthroned
Flanked by lions, Baal Hammon, one of the chief deities of Carthage, is seated on his throne with a crown on his head. Baal means 'lord', but the meaning of the word Hammon is not entirely clear. In Hebrew/Phoenician it translates as 'fiery', 'burning' or 'brazier', in Punic as 'a multitude'. Baal Hammon is associated with the sky, war and fertility.
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