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Author Topic: They have Hannibal Barca as black again and Eurocentrics are mad again
capra
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
 -

^^^this is some random white dude

To me, it is. Googling the image, I suppose that is identified as Alexander the Great (by someone other than me) because it looks a lot like pictures that actually say "Alexander" on them. Do you have some ancient pictures that say "Hannibal" on them? Because that would help.

It's not that this black dude couldn't possibly be Hannibal, but that your argument for this black dude being Hannibal is unconvincing. There is no point in continuing this rather boring debate.

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
 -

^^^this is some random white dude

To me, it is. Googling the image, I suppose that is identified as Alexander the Great (by someone other than me) because it looks a lot like pictures that actually say "Alexander" on them. Do you have some ancient pictures that say "Hannibal" on them? Because that would help.

It's not that this black dude couldn't possibly be Hannibal, but that your argument for this black dude being Hannibal is unconvincing. There is no point in continuing this rather boring debate.

bottom line im not convinced that the man on the coin is some random African

this boils down to a matter of belief

you don't want to believe that the man is Hannibal because he is black

unless you have a better argument proving that the coin is not his image than please share

i believe it is his because
1. it was located at lake trasimene

2. Hannibal's favorite elephant was named surus (the Syrian) thus making him an Asiatic elephant
(Hannibal's mahouts were from India further proving his elephants were from Asia)

3. the man on the coin looks the proper age around 25-28 which Hannibal was during that time

4. During the battle of trasimene Hannibal only had one elephant left and that was the one he rode

5. Hannibal was called an Afer which Virgil describes as being woolly haired, dark complexioned, and thick lips

6. nobody else man or god distinguish themselves at lake trasimene but Hannibal

so im convinced
i rest my case on the image of the coin

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Tukuler
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I am so far swayed by the logic of Lake Trasimeno
where there was but one elephant left to Hannibaal
before he re-upped. And the fact those 'pennies'
were minted and circulated only in that region.

Remember, 'pennies' circulate amongst everybody,
'gold dollars' don't. Thus perfect for propaganda.

So, thanks to the Questioner, I'm adding that then
known but t overlooked fact
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000756;p=2#000087
as a precision to what I wrote 9 years ago.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000756#000001

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the questioner
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Hannibal being depicted black is nothing new
 - battle of zama tapestry 17th century

Nobody can blame African Americans for this depiction
 -

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000756;p=2#000087
as a precision to what I wrote 9 years ago.

Thanks for the link Tukuler.
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Tukuler
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Capra

This is what I wrote more recently and want
to correct now that the place of mintage and
circumstances is thoroughly beaten to my brain


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008745;p=2#000064


BTW would you eat lamb or goat

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

what nation produced this coin ?

no nation
(there is no nation or city at lake trasimene)

it was produced by Hannibal

the Carthaginians cut ties from Hannibal and his father when they crossed into Spain

the above is a triumph coin

 -

who created this coin?

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

what nation produced this coin ?

no nation
(there is no nation or city at lake trasimene)

it was produced by Hannibal

the Carthaginians cut ties from Hannibal and his father when they crossed into Spain

the above is a triumph coin

 -

who created this coin?

sicilian

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Capra

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008745;p=2#000064

BTW would you eat lamb or goat

Thanks again, actually that whole thread is interesting.

Yes I eat lamb and goat, though I like goats, carnivory is contradictory that way.

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the questioner
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if any body have evidence that this is not Hannibal please share
if not then im done here

no use of talking in circles  -
all evidence points to this being Hannibal

im sorry by those who are offended by this post

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Capra

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008745;p=2#000064

BTW would you eat lamb or goat

Thanks again, actually that whole thread is interesting.

Yes I eat lamb and goat, though I like goats, carnivory is contradictory that way.

i think
your missing the point of Tukuler's thread

he said he was correcting his previous thread post in light of new evidence

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

what nation produced this coin ?

no nation
(there is no nation or city at lake trasimene)

it was produced by Hannibal

the Carthaginians cut ties from Hannibal and his father when they crossed into Spain

the above is a triumph coin

 -

who created this coin?

sicilian
Did Sicilian artisans create both of the above coins ?
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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

what nation produced this coin ?

no nation
(there is no nation or city at lake trasimene)

it was produced by Hannibal

the Carthaginians cut ties from Hannibal and his father when they crossed into Spain

the above is a triumph coin

 -

who created this coin?

sicilian
Did Sicilian artisans create both of the above coins ?
please Get to the point because i don't have time to go back and forth on this thread

the coin of Hannibal was created by Etruscan artist

the coin of the Greek was created by Sicilians
(the image of the Greek could be the Greek tyrant Agathocles of Syracuse because the African elephant could symbolize his military expedition in north Africa)

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
i think your missing the point of Tukuler's thread

he said he was correcting his previous thread post in light of new evidence

Yes, I know. I did't know all the other stuff that is in those links, though.
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the lioness,
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 -

there are at least 3 points of view on this

a) this is how Carthaginians looked so I believe it is Hannibal because Hannibal was said to have rode an elephant

b) the Carthaginian leadership did not look like that. That is an African mercenary who was hired for his experience in elephant driving

c) the identity of the person on the coin is unknown


I choose "C"

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
so the questioner doesn't like being questioned ???

of course not because i would be called "the answerer"

here's a question for you
whats your point?

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

there are at least 3 points of view on this

a) this is how Carthaginians looked so I believe it is Hannibal because Hannibal was said to have rode an elephant

b) the Carthaginian leadership did not look like that. That is an African mercenary who was hired for his experience in elephant driving

c) the identity of the person on the coin is unknown


I choose "C"

how is it unknown when it was discovered at lake trasimene?
history tells us that Hannibal fought at lake trasimene
which he had an Asiatic elephant that fit this elephant which is also Asiatic

Hannibal was an African so why not the man on the coin be his image?

if you continue to believe its unknown then your in denial

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the lioness,
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 -

The claim that the above coin depicts Hannibal Barca is a belief rather than fact

The person depicted is unknown

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The point is this boils down to a matter of belief rather than fact

is it not a fact that Hannibal fought at trasimene?

is it not a fact Hannibal only had one elephant left during this battle?

is it not a fact that Hannibal was an African?

surely this man couldn't be Italian or a Gaul

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

The claim that the above coin depicts Hannibal Barca is a belief rather than fact

The person depicted is unknown

the man on the coin is Hannibal Barca
that is a fact

it is a fact Hannibal fought at trasimene where this coin was discovered

it is a fact Hannibal had one elephant left during this war which is why there is an elephant on the coin

it is a fact Hannibal was called an Afer which was used synonyms for negro which is depicted on this coin

it is a fact Hannibal's favorite and only surviving elephant was Asiatic which is depicted on the coin

it is a fact Hannibal was the most distinguish warrior in that battle

anybody who deny this is in denial

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Askia_The_Great
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@the questioner

Do you have a source that states Hannibal was called an "Afer."

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@the questioner

Do you have a source that states Hannibal was called an "Afer."

Quintus Horatius Flaccus called him an dirus afer

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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@the questioner

Do you have a source that states Hannibal was called an "Afer."

Quintus Horatius Flaccus called him an dirus afer
Can you post the quote/source? Along with the definition of Afer?


I ask because it would REALLY help your argument if true and will really build the argument for Hannibal being black.

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”|qui primus alma risit adorea, dirus per urbes afer ut italas, ceu flamma per taedas, vel eurus per siculas equitavit undas.| 40-45 carmen iv drusi laudes ‘’since the dire Afer sped his way through the Italian cities, as the flame does through the pines, or the south-east wind over Sicilian waters.’’ Carmen iv 40-45 horatii flacci carminum liber iv quartus

"Of Afer race, her whole figure bears proof of her country. Her hair tightly-curled, her lips thick, her color, very dark (fuscus), broad chest and breasts low hanging, and with belly somewhat pinched; thin legs, large feet and broad. Her tough skinned heels were seemed with many cracks."[31.35] virgil moretum |Erat unica custos, afra genus, tota patriam testante figura, torta comam, labroque tumens et fusca colore, pectore lata, jacens mammis, compressior alvo, cruribus exilis, spatiosa prodiga planta; continuis rimis calcanea scissa rigebant.| virgil moretum

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Askia_The_Great
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@the questioner

Good post! Did some digging on the term "Afer" and it means what you say.
quote:
African; inhabitant of north coast of Africa (except Egypt); Carthaginian
http://www.latin-dictionary.org/latin/english/meaning/Afer

quote:
Latin Africa (terra) "African land, Libya, the Carthaginian territory, the province of Africa; Africa as a continent," fem. of adjective Africus, from Afer "an African," a word of uncertain origin. The Latin word originally was used only in reference to the region around modern Tunisia; it gradually was extended to the whole continent. Derivation from a Phoenician cognate of Arabic afar "dust, earth" is tempting. The Middle English word was Affrike.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Afer

However your source doesn't seem to be referencing Hannibal. Do you got one that references him being called an Afer?

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Tukuler
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Why not just Google afer Hannibal flaccus

Afer 's been covered here many a Time

How do we move forward if every two years we start at Square One refusing to use what those before us left here for us

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@the questioner

Good post! Did some digging on the term "Afer" and it means what you say.
quote:
African; inhabitant of north coast of Africa (except Egypt); Carthaginian
http://www.latin-dictionary.org/latin/english/meaning/Afer

quote:
Latin Africa (terra) "African land, Libya, the Carthaginian territory, the province of Africa; Africa as a continent," fem. of adjective Africus, from Afer "an African," a word of uncertain origin. The Latin word originally was used only in reference to the region around modern Tunisia; it gradually was extended to the whole continent. Derivation from a Phoenician cognate of Arabic afar "dust, earth" is tempting. The Middle English word was Affrike.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Afer

However your source doesn't seem to be referencing Hannibal. Do you got one that references him being called an Afer?

dirus afer is a reference to Hannibal

Dirus is an epithet for Hannibal
https://books.google.com/books?id=0MEDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA49&dq=dirus+afer&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuvq7Rnc7UAhULw4MKHRvtC8wQ6AEIQDAE#v=onepage&q=dirus%20afer&f=false

here another one explaining the quote
scroll to the bottom
https://books.google.com/books?id=vUxWAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA201&dq=dirus+afer&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuvq7Rnc7UAhULw4MKHRvtC8wQ6AEIUzAH#v=onepage&q=dirus%20afer&f=false

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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why not just Google afer Hannibal flaccus

Afer 's been covered here many a Time

How do we move forward if every two years we start at Square One refusing to use what those before us left here for us

1. Maybe because I wasn't hear during those years?

2. The Questioner is the one making the argument and is confident in his argument and so I am interested in him proving his point.

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@the questioner

Good post! Did some digging on the term "Afer" and it means what you say.
quote:
African; inhabitant of north coast of Africa (except Egypt); Carthaginian
http://www.latin-dictionary.org/latin/english/meaning/Afer

quote:
Latin Africa (terra) "African land, Libya, the Carthaginian territory, the province of Africa; Africa as a continent," fem. of adjective Africus, from Afer "an African," a word of uncertain origin. The Latin word originally was used only in reference to the region around modern Tunisia; it gradually was extended to the whole continent. Derivation from a Phoenician cognate of Arabic afar "dust, earth" is tempting. The Middle English word was Affrike.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Afer

However your source doesn't seem to be referencing Hannibal. Do you got one that references him being called an Afer?

dirus afer is a reference to Hannibal

Dirus is an epithet for Hannibal
https://books.google.com/books?id=0MEDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA49&dq=dirus+afer&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuvq7Rnc7UAhULw4MKHRvtC8wQ6AEIQDAE#v=onepage&q=dirus%20afer&f=false

Thanks. If you have more sources relating Hannibal to the term "Afer" please post.
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Tukuler
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Yes it does
https://books.google.com/books?id=GisEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272


As somebody who's presented ancient docs. Here I don't blame the man for giving up sources that he had to spend hours days months who knows how long to find

Notice tenebris is also in this reference

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Tukuler
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If you have background in the in the subject matter then you already know what the questioner is putting down

Okay you just got here two years ago so what stops you from using the archive

I'll never understand all this running to other blogs and all that stuff when we got who knows what stored away here in our very own archiveto build up on or polish up or whatever needs to be done to it to present it this year 2017 I mean what the hell maybe doesn't need any work at all just needs to be reposted

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
If you have background in the in the subject matter then you already know what the questioner is putting down

Okay you just got here two years ago so what stops you from using the archive

I'll never understand all this running to other blogs and all that stuff when we got who knows what stored away here in our very own archiveto build up on or polish up or whatever needs to be done to it to present it this year 2017 I mean what the hell maybe doesn't need any work at all just needs to be reposted

Tukuler people who have not been here for years are not going to magically know where these threads are. And I admit I am not that informed on Hannibal or Carthage. I do know many Punic remains showed "Negroid features" and many of the indigenous Punic was were African. But thats where it ends.

But AGAIN while I respect the Questioner and his arguments its on HIM to provide the evidence since he is the one arguing that Hannibal is black. So far his argument has been good.

If we have a long archive for Hannibal's description on here then please bump those threads. I give full permission.

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the questioner
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Hannibal also was called a Libyan

Libyan is the Greek word for Afer

Hannibal the Libyan which is equivalent to Hannibal the Afer

" they added “africanus” to his imperial titles, giving him their name, for the Libyans are called Afers in Latin." [7.5.8] History of the Roman Empire: From the Death of Marcus Aurelius by Herodian

"for Hannibal the Libyan, a most inveterate enemy of Rome" plutarch's lives on titus flaminius IX 3-6

• “just look at the physical difference between the Germans and Scythians from Libyans and Ethiopians is this due simply to god willing it, without the preexisting cause of climate and geography having a joint influence , as it were, with the gods in the determination of skin colors?” Julian’s against the galileans I:143 from Flavius Claudius Iulianus Augustus or Julian the apostate

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@The Questioner

Once again good job. So we know the term "Afer" meant black and curly haired. And the term "Libyan" also meant Afer.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
If you have background in the in the subject matter then you already know what the questioner is putting down

Okay you just got here two years ago so what stops you from using the archive

I'll never understand all this running to other blogs and all that stuff when we got who knows what stored away here in our very own archiveto build up on or polish up or whatever needs to be done to it to present it this year 2017 I mean what the hell maybe doesn't need any work at all just needs to be reposted

Tukuler people who have not been here for years are not going to magically know where these threads are. And I admit I am not that informed on Hannibal or Carthage. I do know many Punic remains showed "Negroid features" and many of the indigenous Punic was were African. But thats where it ends.

But AGAIN while I respect the Questioner and his arguments its on HIM to provide the evidence since he is the one arguing that Hannibal is black. So far his argument has been good.

If we have a long archive for Hannibal's description on here then please bump those threads. I give full permission.

You really don't get it. You think I have magic powers? No I simply format a query like

key1 key2 site:egyptsearch.com

I'm teaching you a tool that you can find a hell of a much more than just afer so give yourself permission

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Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
What you're telling me
What kind of man would I be
If I don't talk about what I see

The lioness threatened to keep a special eye on me simply because I use the initials TL instead of spelling out the lioness

But you want to tell me to be civil and pay no attention to the fact that we have a dereliction of Duty going on that you as part of management should be addressing

I tried venting privately to admin who's box is full

But you know what if nobody else cares why der
fuchs should I


You want to lock the thread because I'm telling the facts of the matter

And they called me draconian

I don't know why you're taking this personally. That went for Lioness too and EVERYONE in this thread.

Edit: If you believe Lioness is targeting you than tell Punos_Rey or me. Otherwise I want ALL parties to be civil. Its not that hard.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
If you have background in the in the subject matter then you already know what the questioner is putting down

Okay you just got here two years ago so what stops you from using the archive

I'll never understand all this running to other blogs and all that stuff when we got who knows what stored away here in our very own archiveto build up on or polish up or whatever needs to be done to it to present it this year 2017 I mean what the hell maybe doesn't need any work at all just needs to be reposted

Tukuler people who have not been here for years are not going to magically know where these threads are. And I admit I am not that informed on Hannibal or Carthage. I do know many Punic remains showed "Negroid features" and many of the indigenous Punic was were African. But thats where it ends.

But AGAIN while I respect the Questioner and his arguments its on HIM to provide the evidence since he is the one arguing that Hannibal is black. So far his argument has been good.

If we have a long archive for Hannibal's description on here then please bump those threads. I give full permission.

You really don't get it. You think I have magic powers? No I simply format a query like

key1 key2 site:egyptsearch.com

I'm teaching you a tool that you can find a hell of a much more than just afer so give yourself permission

Thanks for the tip. But again I was asking the Questioner because again he was making the argument. He provided the info I asked for and so it ends there. Burden of proof?
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Tukuler
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I I've volleyed an earlier p.m. back to you . Please use it . No need to clog up my p.m. box with new threads S . Thank you

Alsoat your pleasure delete or keep the posts I made that are totally off topic

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
I I've volleyed an earlier p.m. back to you . Please use it . No need to clog up my p.m. box with new threads S . Thank you

Alsoat your pleasure delete or keep the posts I made that are totally off topic

PM sent. [Smile]
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the questioner
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 -
1. for those who say "That is an African mercenary who was hired for his experience in elephant driving"

this point could not be possible because the elephant is not from Africa and Polybius calls Hannibal's elephant drivers Indians(Ἰνδοῖς) not Africans(Libyans) or Ethiopians

2. for those who say "the coin's portrait is unknown"
History tells us that there is only one man who traveled with an elephant and distinguished himself at lake trasimene and that is Hannibal

3. for those who say "the man is one of hannibal's most distinguish soldiers"
this argument also could not hold weight because the most distinguish soldier at the battle of lake trasimene was Ducarius the Gaul

obviously the man on the coin is not Gaulish because Gauls were white Europeans with Caucasoid features

without a doubt the man on the coin is Hannibal

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]  -

The claim that the above coin depicts Hannibal Barca is a belief rather than fact

The person depicted is unknown

the man on the coin is Hannibal Barca
that is a fact

it is a fact Hannibal fought at trasimene where this coin was discovered


 -

where is your credible source that says either of these coins was discovered at trasimene?

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]  -

The claim that the above coin depicts Hannibal Barca is a belief rather than fact

The person depicted is unknown

the man on the coin is Hannibal Barca
that is a fact

it is a fact Hannibal fought at trasimene where this coin was discovered


 -

where is your credible source that says either of these coins was discovered at trasimene?

Ernest babelon speaks of these coins discovered at trasimene

https://books.google.com/books?id=u5QUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA155&dq=ernest+babelon+negre&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0lZHf7tDUAhXCaT4KHcFRB9EQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=ernest%20babelon%20negre&f=fals e

Carthaginian men wore earrings just like the man on the coin
"quia incedunt cum anulatis auribus"
(Well here they(Carthaginians) are with ear rings)
poenulus by plautus V.II. 982

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Tukuler
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She knows that. We covered it in the WAS
HANNIBAL BLACK thread I just bumped and
reposted numastic notes on one of those
coins that sold for $1,600.


The question is why she persists trolling
nonsense. She's a good data miner. No
doubt she looked it up again before she
decided to troll

You already laid out at least 3 solid
pieces of evidence in favour of coins
depicting Hannibaal.

Now the only partially convinc9ing counter
to it is there are 6 mintings of this
coin. All show an afer. They don't
look exactly like the same man.

Sorry, no scanner. Rogers Sex & Race v1 p81

 -
 -

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I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Ernest babelon speaks of these coins discovered at trasimene

https://books.google.com/books?id=u5QUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA155&dq=ernest+babelon+negre&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0lZHf7tDUAhXCaT4KHcFRB9EQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=ernest%20babelon%20negre&f=fals e

Carthaginian men wore earrings just like the man on the coin
"quia incedunt cum anulatis auribus"
(Well here they(Carthaginians) are with ear rings)
poenulus by plautus V.II. 982 [/QB]

^Excellent source, in French that does describe the coin found at Trasimene although the site of a battle does not mean the same location was the site of a mint where coins were struck

However the text describes the head as that of Hannibal's elephant rider.

If the man is an elephant rider and the elephant was Indian that does not mean that an African manhout could not also train and ride an Indian elephant.
As for earrings they are not mentioned in these several pages about the coin. To my eyes I don't even see earrings worn by the men on these coins!
I have also not noticed a Carthaginian artifact depicting a male with earrings, have you seen one?
However earrings worn by men are numerous in Egyptian depictions of Nubians.
It seems that the man in this coin might have been described as
'Aethiopian' but was Hannibal described that way?
It would not be unreasonable to guess that Hannibal might have looked partially Lebanese as well as African.

As to the ratio of people of Phoenician descent to people of African descent living in Carthage at the time that is not known.
It was founded by a foreign culture. How would they be able to take over a larger number of Africans if there was a large number of Africans already settled there? The indigenous people of the region today are often smaller sized groups of nomadic peoples and there is no evidence of sedentary culture in the Maghreb before the Phoenicians and Greeks until you go back about a thousand years earlier. It was believed in ancient times that Africa was originally populated by Gaetulians and Libyans, both nomadic peoples.

You went to great lengths in another thread of yours to say that the Carthaginians did not have coins, only leather money but now without evidence you claim that the famous Carthaginian, Hannibal commissioned this coin and at the same time say at the time he did so he was no longer Carthaginian!
Furthermore in the same thread you went to great lengths to say all coins mentioned in this period depicted gods and goddesses rather than real people.


But could this coin be a depiction of Hannibal himself?

Maybe

As for the Carthaginians you should be able to find other Carthaginian artifacts for context

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[qb] She knows that. We covered it in the WAS
HANNIBAL BLACK thread I just bumped and
reposted numastic notes on one of those
coins that sold for $1,600.


The question is why she persists trolling
nonsense. She's a good data miner. No
doubt she looked it up again before she
decided to troll

You already laid out at least 3 solid
pieces of evidence in favour of coins
depicting Hannibaal.

Now the only partially convinc9ing counter
to it is there are 6 mintings of this
coin. All show an afer. They don't
look exactly like the same man.

Sorry, no scanner. Rogers Sex & Race v1 p81

the 6 mints depict the same man
i can show many coins where Alexander the great and Julius Caesar look slightly different

these coins look slightly different but generally depict the same man
the man has big lips, large forehead, twisted hair, and earrings (though faded)

if your looking for perfection in art work during this time period you would be nitpicking

so it is not a convincing counter

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Tukuler
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I married my wife with a shekel of Tyre which
depicts Dhul Qarnayim AKA Alexander. Why
would anybody expect his image not to change
over several mints over several centuries?

It's not an established fact who the bronze
coins represent . You wish away evidence
because it counters your well grounded
opinion.

The bronzes are all from the same Chiana Valley
from the same three-year period and the same mint
unlike coins of Melqart, Iskander, or Julius Caesar.

All we can do is drop weight in each balance of the
scale. So far the weights tip in Hannibaal's favor.

It's possible various minters of varying skill who
may never have seen the man himself cast differing
profiles and hair quality. It's also possible that it's
not Hannibaal at all, though not likely.

Only a priori considerations rule out either option in favor of the other.

And please no lecture about the blacks of North
Africa. I've been presenting that here since 2005
with the native Aughriga who greeted the Kanaani
upon arrival and made them lease land for many a
year. Also that Afer most likely derives from
Aughriga as does our word Africa.

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Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Ernest babelon speaks of these coins discovered at trasimene

https://books.google.com/books?id=u5QUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA155&dq=ernest+babelon+negre&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0lZHf7tDUAhXCaT4KHcFRB9EQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=ernest%20babelon%20negre&f=fals e

Carthaginian men wore earrings just like the man on the coin
"quia incedunt cum anulatis auribus"
(Well here they(Carthaginians) are with ear rings)
poenulus by plautus V.II. 982

^Excellent source, in French that does describe the coin found at Trasimene although the site of a battle does not mean the same location was the site of a mint where coins were struck

However the text describes the head as that of Hannibal's elephant rider.

If the man is an elephant rider and the elephant was Indian that does not mean that an African manhout could not also train and ride an Indian elephant.
As for earrings they are not mentioned in these several pages about the coin. To my eyes I don't even see earrings worn by the men on these coins!
I have also not noticed a Carthaginian artifact depicting a male with earrings, have you seen one?
However earrings worn by men are numerous in Egyptian depictions of Nubians.
It seems that the man in this coin might have been described as
'Aethiopian' but was Hannibal described that way?
It would not be unreasonable to guess that Hannibal might have looked partially Lebanese as well as African.

As to the ratio of people of Phoenician descent to people of African descent living in Carthage at the time that is not known.
It was founded by a foreign culture. How would they be able to take over a larger number of Africans if there was a large number of Africans already settled there? The indigenous people of the region today are often smaller sized groups of nomadic peoples and there is no evidence of sedentary culture in the Maghreb before the Phoenicians and Greeks until you go back about a thousand years earlier. It was believed in ancient times that Africa was originally populated by Gaetulians and Libyans, both nomadic peoples.

You went to great lengths in another thread of yours to say that the Carthaginians did not have coins, only leather money but now without evidence you claim that the famous Carthaginian, Hannibal commissioned this coin and at the same time say at the time he did so he was no longer Carthaginian!
Furthermore in the same thread you went to great lengths to say all coins mentioned in this period depicted gods and goddesses rather than real people.


But could this coin be a depiction of Hannibal himself?

Maybe

As for the Carthaginians you should be able to find other Carthaginian artifacts for context [/QB]

you must remember that Carthage was utterly destroyed so finding artifacts will be very difficult

i thoroughly proved that all of the so called artifacts of Carthage are Greek

"^Excellent source, in French that does describe the coin found at Trasimene although the site of a battle does not mean the same location was the site of a mint where coins were struck" (these coins could be found no where else also you must remember that Hannibal was the only man at trasimene that distinguish himself who rode an Asiatic elephant)

!. "However the text describes the head as that of Hannibal's elephant rider."

Hannibal's elephant rider were from India which i have proven

2. "If the man is an elephant rider and the elephant was Indian that does not mean that an African manhout could not also train and ride an Indian elephant."

Hannibal's elephant drivers were from india

3. "As for earrings they are not mentioned in these several pages about the coin. To my eyes I don't even see earrings worn by the men on these coins!"

the earrings are faded how ever you can see them in this coin

http://www.beforebc.de/all_africa/02-16-100-54-car-73-000-20-10-01.jpg

4. "I have also not noticed a Carthaginian artifact depicting a male with earrings, have you seen one?"

what your falsely assuming is Carthaginian art work is actually Greek art work

5. "However earrings worn by men are numerous in Egyptian depictions of Nubians.
It seems that the man in this coin might have been described as
'Aethiopian' but was Hannibal described that way?"

Hannibal was called an Afer which is equivalent to Ethiopian
”Neger: aethiops; afer; femina aethiops; afra.” Neues deutsch-lateinisches Handwörterbuch nach F.K. Kraft's grösserem Werke ... By Friedrich Karl Kraft 1826

6. "It would not be unreasonable to guess that Hannibal might have looked partially Lebanese as well as African."

there were no Lebanese during antiquity only Phoenicians
the modern Lebanese are mixed with various middle eastern people through out the years

7. "As to the ratio of people of Phoenician descent to people of African descent living in Carthage at the time that is not known.
It was founded by a foreign culture. How would they be able to take over a larger number of Africans if there was a large number of Africans already settled there? The indigenous people of the region today are often smaller sized groups of nomadic peoples and there is no evidence of sedentary culture in the Maghreb before the Phoenicians and Greeks until you go back about a thousand years earlier. It was believed in ancient times that Africa was originally populated by Gaetulians and Libyans, both nomadic peoples. "

the Swahili is a prime example of what the Phoenician population did at Carthage
Swahili culture is foreign but the inhabitants are African

here is a portrait of tippu tib an Africanized Arab his real name is Hamad bin Muhammad bin Juma bin Rajab el Murjebi (if you would have read about him in a book and never saw his image, you would have thought he looked like an Arab instead of African)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Tippu_Tip.jpg/220px-Tippu_Tip.jpg

8. "You went to great lengths in another thread of yours to say that the Carthaginians did not have coins, only leather money but now without evidence you claim that the famous Carthaginian, Hannibal commissioned this coin and at the same time say at the time he did so he was no longer Carthaginian!
Furthermore in the same thread you went to great lengths to say all coins mentioned in this period depicted gods and goddesses rather than real people."

the Carthaginians did not strike coins themselves however these coins of Hannibal were created by the etruscans who Hannibal promised to free from the oppression of Rome

all of the coins that are said to be associated with Carthage depict Greek gods and goddess

the coins of Persephone (tanit) were brought to Carthage by agathocles of syracuse

9. "But could this coin be a depiction of Hannibal himself?

Maybe

As for the Carthaginians you should be able to find other Carthaginian artifacts for context"

artifacts? hardly because Carthage was destroyed

Delenda est carthago
hopefully you heard that proverb before

Mod Edit

Please use images that do not stretch page.

[ 22. June 2017, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: BlessedbyHorus ]

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Tukuler
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Oh I meant for you to go ahead now and use the smaller images that I put up okay

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
I married my wife with a shekel of Tyre which
depicts Dhul Qarnayim AKA Alexander. Why would
anyone expect his image not to change over
several mints over several centuries?

It's not an established fact who the bronze
coins represent . You wish away evidence
because it counters your well grounded
opinion.

The bronzes are all from the same Chiaroni Valley
from the same three-year period and the same mint
unlike coins of Melqart, Iskander, or Julius Caesar.

All we can do is drop weight in each balance of the scale.
So far the weights tip in Hannibaal's favor.

It's possible various minters of varying skill who
may never have seen the man himself cast differing
profiles and hair quality. It's also possible that it's
not t a Hannibal at all.

Only a priori considerations rule out either option in favor of the other.

And please no lecture about the blacks of North
Africa. I've been presenting that here since 2005
with the native Aughriga who greeted the Kanaani
upon arrival and made them lease land for many a
year. Also that Afer most likely derives from
Aughriga as does our word Africa.

notice the differences in the face of caesar
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9e/24/8d/9e248de97d168f11e18f85e71b3f7a76.jpg http://d1atz0030pgie2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Julius-Caesar-Denarius-44-BC.jpg http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/acans/caesar/images-coins/CNG-RRC-480-6.jpg
http://www.romancoins.info/JuliusCaesarPM.jpg
obviously this is the same man but there are some imperfections

the fact the coins of hannibal depict an black African is really the only reason people question it

lets be real here

because scholarly it is with out a doubt Hannibal

for the reasons that it historically fits the narrative of Hannibal


Mod Edit

Please use images that do not stretch page.

[ 22. June 2017, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: BlessedbyHorus ]

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Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944

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Indeed the same man but obviously not the same
coin. No two of them are the same engraving.

The coins we're discussing however are
• the same mint
• approximately the same year
• variant engraving.

theLioness (initials tL, I'm not giving the
full spelling every time) posted a variety of
Juba coins. No mistaking of profile or hair
quality. If she'd be so kind as to repost them here, please.


Below are coins from the Wildwind site mentioned in the post from the cpmpanion thread


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I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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