the earrings are faded how ever you can see them in this coin
no earring just a bad quality reproduction. We have already seen several versions of these coins. If you look to the right of his forehead, three unidentified blotches And the Nubians had earrings so if he was shown with earrings it wouldn't prove anything
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
you must remember that Carthage was utterly destroyed so finding artifacts will be very difficult
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
i thoroughly proved that all of the so called artifacts of Carthage are Greek
Again, then the problem is that you exclude this coin from that statement.
But the statement is not true. If you burn a city there are still objects to find in excavation
A Punic mask in the Carthage museum
^ yes there's the earring at left on his right ear as well as a nose ring
Carthage National Museum is a national museum in Byrsa, Tunisia. Along with the Bardo National Museum, it is one of the two main local archaeological museums in the region.
Some of the best pieces found in excavations are limestone/marble carvings, depicting animals, plants and even human sculptures. Of special note is a marble sarcophagus of a priest and priestess from the 3rd century BC, discovered in the necropolis of Carthage. The Museum also has a noted collection of masks and jewelry in cast glass. The various excavations at the site have uncovered numerous items characterizing the Phoenician civilization.
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I see in your reference that an earrings are mentioned, yes
translated:
quote:
p 156
The negro of the coins we are studying has a characteristic physiognomy which does not allow us to misunderstand the ethnographic intention of the engraver of the coin: he has rings in his ears; His flat nose, his big lips, his hair arranged in tendrils and in stages [retorto aine, known as Martial] are in conformity with the Negro type that all the branches of classical art make known to us. The elephant carries a small bell in the neck. It has long, fan-shaped ears, which distinguish the African elephant (elephas capensis) from the Asian elephant (elephas indicus), which, although larger, has very short ears. These differences of race are very clearly indicated, not only by the ancient authors, but also on the monuments themselves and in particular on the coins. It is sufficient, for instance, to compare, for example, the currencies of the kings of Egypt, Syria, and Bactria with those of the kings of Numidia and Mauretania, to the type of the elephant.
^^ also notice in copying URLs that are too long, after you do it you can come in and delete most of the end of it and it still works. Before posting hit preview and then click on it to verify it works
He may be incorrect on the elephant type though
while the line illustration at the top of the book chapter shows the coin with larger ears, the photos here seem very convincingly of the shorter eared Indian type.
I'm still not entirely convinced that there is an earring here but maybe
By my count, over half the Punic Ibizan crania classify as "Black" (i.e. they physically resemble African-Americans) according to this analysis.
Though, in the interest of fairness, a later study on aDNA from Punic Ibizan samples showed mostly European mtDNAs, with the one Punic genome they were able to sequence showing more European than North African genetic affinity.
quote:Ibiza was permanently settled around the 7th century BCE by founders arriving from west Phoenicia. The founding population grew significantly and reached its height during the 4th century BCE. We obtained nine complete mitochondrial genomes from skeletal remains from two Punic necropoli in Ibiza and a Bronze Age site from Formentara. We also obtained low coverage (0.47X average depth) of the genome of one individual, directly dated to 361–178 cal BCE, from the Cas Molí site on Ibiza. We analysed and compared ancient DNA results with 18 new mitochondrial genomes from modern Ibizans to determine the ancestry of the founders of Ibiza. The mitochondrial results indicate a predominantly recent European maternal ancestry for the current Ibizan population while the whole genome data suggest a significant Eastern Mediterranean component. Our mitochondrial results suggest a genetic discontinuity between the early Phoenician settlers and the island’s modern inhabitants. Our data, while limited, suggest that the Eastern or North African influence in the Punic population of Ibiza was primarily male dominated.
Though I should point out that, with the exception of Puig des Molins, most of the Ibizan sites from which these genetic samples were obtained appear to be different locations from the ones from which the crania in the older study came. So there is the possibility that, were aDNA recovered from the crania analyzed in the first study, the results might look different from what you see in the second study.
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: ^^Good post and could be. Ancient Punics were very diverse imo.
Agreed. That's to be expected since the Carthaginian empire was a transcontinental one that covered territory in Europe and the western Mediterranean as well as North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Bumping this thread again, with a screencap and link to the study on Punic remains from Ibiza that Swenet cited earlier:
By my count, over half the Punic Ibizan crania classify as "Black" (i.e. they physically resemble African-Americans) according to this analysis.
Though, in the interest of fairness, a later study on aDNA from Punic Ibizan samples showed mostly European mtDNAs, with the one Punic genome they were able to sequence showing more European than North African genetic affinity.
quote:Ibiza was permanently settled around the 7th century BCE by founders arriving from west Phoenicia. The founding population grew significantly and reached its height during the 4th century BCE. We obtained nine complete mitochondrial genomes from skeletal remains from two Punic necropoli in Ibiza and a Bronze Age site from Formentara. We also obtained low coverage (0.47X average depth) of the genome of one individual, directly dated to 361–178 cal BCE, from the Cas Molí site on Ibiza. We analysed and compared ancient DNA results with 18 new mitochondrial genomes from modern Ibizans to determine the ancestry of the founders of Ibiza. The mitochondrial results indicate a predominantly recent European maternal ancestry for the current Ibizan population while the whole genome data suggest a significant Eastern Mediterranean component. Our mitochondrial results suggest a genetic discontinuity between the early Phoenician settlers and the island’s modern inhabitants. Our data, while limited, suggest that the Eastern or North African influence in the Punic population of Ibiza was primarily male dominated.
Though I should point out that, with the exception of Puig des Molins, most of the Ibizan sites from which these genetic samples were obtained appear to be different locations from the ones from which the crania in the older study came. So there is the possibility that, were aDNA recovered from the crania analyzed in the first study, the results might look different from what you see in the second study.
The study you posted doesn't say they looked black but show SSA affinities like modern north africans. They didn't actually use any north african sample in this study, read :
quote:Measurements were then introduced into the forensic discriminant programme FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996). This programme was selected as it contains data from samples with a European Caucasoid background as well as data from individuals with a sub-Saharan ancestry [...] Only two of its categories were used , determined by the nature of the research and the geographical and chronological background of Ibiza: ‘American Blacks’ with a reference sample of 150 males and 125 females, and ‘American Whites’ with 271 males and 195 females (Ousley and Jantz, 1996). Therefore, the study assumed that each skull belonged to either group.
Again read carefully :
quote:Even if the skull comes from a group identity different to those in the database, which is the case of the Ibizan material, the programme will still classify the specimen with the closest group available (Ubelaker, 1998: 131). Also, the system is based on American populations. No North African samples are available in the database. Caution applying FORDISC 2.0 to non-American ancient populations has been highlighted elsewhere (see Ubelaker et al., 2002).
The reconstruction they propose doesn't look black but north african :
Moreover why did you avoid the autosomal result we have from one ibiza punic ? :
quote:The Ibiza Phoenician individual published in 50 232 is not consistent with forming a clade with any of the Bronze233 Age individuals from the Balaeric islands newly reported in this study, and indeed we find that she234 can not be modeled even with our least parsimonious model of 4 distal sources. However, when we235 add in a North African source of ancestry, we can fit her as a two-way mix of 18.8 ± 7.9%236 Anatolia_Neolithic and 81.2 ± 7.9% Morocco_LN ancestry (p=0.141) (Supplementary Materials). We237 also can fit the Ibiza Phoenician as two-way mixture of a variety of groups closer to her in time one238 of which is always Morocco_LN. While several of these models include a Balaeric Island Bronze Age239 source, we cannot rule out the possibility that the Ibiza Phoenician individual has no local Balaeric240 ancestry at all. Specifically, we find that we can fit her with models that do not have a Balaeric241 source and that instead have Balaeric Bronze Age individuals in the outgroups (e.g. (e.g. 17.1 ±242 3.5% France_Bell_Beaker and 82.9 ± 3.5% Morocco_LN, p=0.869) (Supplementary Table 11)."
quote:Considering that in qpWave this individual did not form a clade with the other Balearic individuals, it is possible that these models represent an unsampled group. These results clearly demonstrate a link to North African ancestry in the Phoenician settlement of the Balearic Islands.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Bumping this thread again, with a screencap and link to the study on Punic remains from Ibiza that Swenet cited earlier:
By my count, over half the Punic Ibizan crania classify as "Black" (i.e. they physically resemble African-Americans) according to this analysis.
Though, in the interest of fairness, a later study on aDNA from Punic Ibizan samples showed mostly European mtDNAs, with the one Punic genome they were able to sequence showing more European than North African genetic affinity.
quote:Ibiza was permanently settled around the 7th century BCE by founders arriving from west Phoenicia. The founding population grew significantly and reached its height during the 4th century BCE. We obtained nine complete mitochondrial genomes from skeletal remains from two Punic necropoli in Ibiza and a Bronze Age site from Formentara. We also obtained low coverage (0.47X average depth) of the genome of one individual, directly dated to 361–178 cal BCE, from the Cas Molí site on Ibiza. We analysed and compared ancient DNA results with 18 new mitochondrial genomes from modern Ibizans to determine the ancestry of the founders of Ibiza. The mitochondrial results indicate a predominantly recent European maternal ancestry for the current Ibizan population while the whole genome data suggest a significant Eastern Mediterranean component. Our mitochondrial results suggest a genetic discontinuity between the early Phoenician settlers and the island’s modern inhabitants. Our data, while limited, suggest that the Eastern or North African influence in the Punic population of Ibiza was primarily male dominated.
Though I should point out that, with the exception of Puig des Molins, most of the Ibizan sites from which these genetic samples were obtained appear to be different locations from the ones from which the crania in the older study came. So there is the possibility that, were aDNA recovered from the crania analyzed in the first study, the results might look different from what you see in the second study.
The study you posted doesn't say they looked black but show SSA affinities like modern north africans. They didn't actually use any north african sample in this study, read :
quote:Measurements were then introduced into the forensic discriminant programme FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996). This programme was selected as it contains data from samples with a European Caucasoid background as well as data from individuals with a sub-Saharan ancestry [...] Only two of its categories were used , determined by the nature of the research and the geographical and chronological background of Ibiza: ‘American Blacks’ with a reference sample of 150 males and 125 females, and ‘American Whites’ with 271 males and 195 females (Ousley and Jantz, 1996). Therefore, the study assumed that each skull belonged to either group.
Again read carefully :
quote:Even if the skull comes from a group identity different to those in the database, which is the case of the Ibizan material, the programme will still classify the specimen with the closest group available (Ubelaker, 1998: 131). Also, the system is based on American populations. No North African samples are available in the database. Caution applying FORDISC 2.0 to non-American ancient populations has been highlighted elsewhere (see Ubelaker et al., 2002).
The reconstruction they propose doesn't look black but north african :
Moreover why did you avoid the autosomal result we have from one ibiza punic ? :
quote:The Ibiza Phoenician individual published in 50 232 is not consistent with forming a clade with any of the Bronze233 Age individuals from the Balaeric islands newly reported in this study, and indeed we find that she234 can not be modeled even with our least parsimonious model of 4 distal sources. However, when we235 add in a North African source of ancestry, we can fit her as a two-way mix of 18.8 ± 7.9%236 Anatolia_Neolithic and 81.2 ± 7.9% Morocco_LN ancestry (p=0.141) (Supplementary Materials). We237 also can fit the Ibiza Phoenician as two-way mixture of a variety of groups closer to her in time one238 of which is always Morocco_LN. While several of these models include a Balaeric Island Bronze Age239 source, we cannot rule out the possibility that the Ibiza Phoenician individual has no local Balaeric240 ancestry at all. Specifically, we find that we can fit her with models that do not have a Balaeric241 source and that instead have Balaeric Bronze Age individuals in the outgroups (e.g. (e.g. 17.1 ±242 3.5% France_Bell_Beaker and 82.9 ± 3.5% Morocco_LN, p=0.869) (Supplementary Table 11)."
quote:Considering that in qpWave this individual did not form a clade with the other Balearic individuals, it is possible that these models represent an unsampled group. These results clearly demonstrate a link to North African ancestry in the Phoenician settlement of the Balearic Islands.
The point they are making is this was a mixed population and elements of that population would have had black African features. According to you "North Africans" are a monolithic population that only look one way and have only one set of features. This is not supported by any facts on the ground.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The point they are making is this was a mixed population and elements of that population would have had black African features. According to you "North Africans" are a monolithic population that only look one way and have only one set of features. This is not supported by any facts on the ground. [/QB]
I'm myself roughly 20% black and most north africans are around 20-30% they already show this ssa affinity so obviously if you only put white americans and afro-americans samples, NAs will diverge in the direction of afro-americans.
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please give your 20% back you don't deserve it
Barka Surname
quote:This surname is predominantly found in Africa, where 95 percent of Barka are found; 58 percent are found in West Africa and 44 percent are found in Chadic Africa. Barka is also the 28,772nd most numerous given name on earth, held by 28,820 people.
Malam Mamane Barka was born in 1958 or 1959 in Tesker, a town in the east of the then autonomous republic of Niger. He came from the nomadic people of Toubou
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Brq literally means the thunder in phoenician (same sense in hebrew and arabic) but yatunde think it has to do with the nilo-saharan dialect of toubous XD
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That is not Hamilcar that is Melqart (Hercules)
Melqart Melqart (Phoenician: lit. Melek-qart, "King of the City") was the tutelary god of the Phoenician city of Tyre.
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Carthaginian leaders were often depicted as gods. It can be Hamilcar or even Hannibal. British museum attributes it to Hannibal.
Here is another one attributed to Hasdrubal, younger brother of Hannibal.
This has been attributed to Hannibal
The black man on a coin depicted earlier in this thread can not with any certainty be tied to Hannibal.
Here is an article adressing the issue of that type of coin:
quote: The imagery on the coin has been interpreted as representing one of Hannibal’s war elephants on one side and its black mahout, or driver, on the other. According to this theory, the coin was minted by an as-yet-unidentified Etruscan city as a sign of goodwill toward the Carthaginians who, under General Hasdrubal, were marching to join his brother Hannibal in a combined attack on the city of Rome itself. Hasdrubal, however, was defeated by Roman legions far to the north in 207 B.C. Etruscan hopes for aid vanished with him.
From this hypothetical association with Carthage has followed the suggestion that these coins were used by the Etruscans as payment to the invading Carthaginian mercenaries. Yet this account of the coin’s origin comes with some serious caveats. Sporadically produced, Etruscan coinage seems to have been intended solely for local barter or trade. Besides, by the time Hannibal approached Etruscan territory, the association of his army with elephants would only have been a distant memory.
The appearance of the elephant and black man’s head on the coin may more convincingly be accounted for by the Etruscans’ sustained contact with the sophisticated intellectual climate of Greece. The profile head of a black man occurs as part of the long-standing vocabulary of visual symbolism presented on Greek coins in the eastern Mediterranean.
His distinctive visage is often paired with a key religious symbol of the city-state that issued them. For example, in a coin from Delphi minted in the early fifth century B.C., the head of a black man essentially like this one occurs on one side, while on the other is a three-part symbol alluding to the pre-eminent local sanctuary of Apollo, god of wisdom and prophecy. The black man seems to represent Delphos, the legendary founder of the city whose mother’s name, Melaina, literally means “black woman.” Derived from this etymological association with dark-skinned ethnicity, the image of Delphos as a black man serves as the visual epitome of the city.
In the coin from Delphi, as in other examples of the black head on Greek coins, the intention seems to have been to conjure an ideal image of humanity, of the sort famously attributed to the Ethiopian by the renowned Greek authors Homer and Hesiod.
Living on the southern fringes of the known world, the Ethiopian was held to be the handsomest of men, especially beloved by the gods. The projection of such superlative qualities on these exotic lands and their inhabitants is typical of the ancient Greek mind, and a similar intention for the presence of the black man on the Etruscan coin could apply as well. As with the example from Delphi, he may also personify some local attribute, such as the authority by whom the coin was minted. The elephant on the other side may represent the virtue of wisdom and strength, also associated with Turms, the Etruscan equivalent of the Greek god Hermes. What meaning this could have had in an Etruscan context remains unclear, but it undoubtedly carried a positive meaning of the highest order.
Both this Greek orientation and the mahout characterization of the black head on the coin are instructive, reflecting two very different yet complementary experiences with the African presence in the ancient world. In the art of this period, the black man could be abstracted into a symbol of ideal nobility, while on a more concrete level he could be shown as a real man playing a very real role in the history of ancient Rome. Either way, he was to leave an indelible imprint on western civilization during its most formative period.
posted
PHOENICIANS IN THE CENTRAL MEDITERRANEAN: MELQART’S CONVERSION TO HERCULES Legend tells us that he was one of Jason’s 50 Argonauts on that epic journey to retrieve the Golden Fleece from Colchis, an ancient city over 1,200 miles east of Greece. Afterward, he turned west and forged the “Heraclean Way” on his return trip from the southernmost tip of Iberia. For this reason, the monolithic rocks on each side of Gibraltar, the origin of his trek, are still called the Pillars of Hercules.
Of course, these travels never actually happened because Hercules never actually existed. But the Greeks used his mythos to justify their interests in the western Mediterranean. Wherever Greeks colonized, Hercules had conveniently voyaged first to clear the land of wild beasts and savages. And when ancient Greece’s hegemony in the Mediterranean began to dwindle, her successors adopted the same tactic.
By Michael Arnold November 8, 2020 – The Collector
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It seems yatunde is not able to answer my questions and can't explain why these blacks always portrayed themselves as caucasoids ...Geez these afrocentrists really want to stay in their illusion.
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I have some doubts on this one since Hannibal was quite young during the second punic war while that looks like a mature man in his 40s-50s. Some have argued that the bust generally attributed to Juba II was in fact depicting Hannibal.
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Exporting Hercules: How A Greek God Influenced Western Superpowers The Greek god Hercules was adopted by Punic and Roman colonial powers to legitimize their expansion in the western Mediterranean. His mythology linked them to the inheritance of ancient Greece
Melqart, Guardian of the Universe and chief deity of the preeminent Phoenician city of Tyre, came to be associated with Hercules. Greek gods had long been worshipped in the region thanks to the strong Hellenic presence in Sicily. And as Carthage carved out a slice of the island for itself, it began to syncretize its old Levantine culture with that of the Greeks.
This distinctly Punic identity taking root in western Sicily saw Melqart transform into Hercules-Melqart. His effigies started to follow Greek artistic standards as early as the late 6th century. And his profile, minted on Punic coinage in Spain, Sardinia, and Sicily, took on a very Herculean character.
It’s worth mentioning that the Phoenicians initially used Melqart as the Greeks did Hercules. In the early Phoenician colony of Gades in Iberia, the cult of Melqart was established as a cultural link to its distant colonizer. So it’s reasonable that Punic Sicilians would look to both as having some claim as the mythological father of the west, and ultimately conflate them. In any case, Melqart’s story became interchangeable with that of Hercules, even in such ventures as the forging of the Heraclean Way.
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idk why she suddenly spam infos about melqart but ok...
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Because on your coins is Melqart/Hercules in Greek from.. it is not Hannibal himself
The coin could have been minted under Hannibal in Sicily hence why it has that attestation but the images are always of the GODS themselves
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Because on your coins is Melqart/Hercules in Greek from.. it is not Hannibal himself
The coin could have been minted under Hannibal in Sicily hence why it has that attestation but the images are always of the GODS themselves
I showed you that this is not what the description says about the coin, I also showed you hundreds of carthaginian coins depicting both historical figures and deities yet none are black why ?
DO NOT AVOID THIS QUESTION : IF THEY WERE BLACKS WHY are their GODS Depicted as CAUCASOID/MED LOOKING ?
+ you literally try to depict them as black meanwhile we have genetic and anthropologic results lmao
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Why do so many of the Roman coins depicting Berber kings look like Europeans?
Some of the potential reasons:
• Some of these kings were allies of the Romans against other berbers and they may have Romanized their appearance to some extent
• Sometimes of the berber kings were of mixed ancestry Romnano-African
• Sometimes a Roman God or a Roman God hybridized with a berber king is depicted on a coin representing a particular king
• And as we see with the bronze bust of Juba above if a person has broad features some of it it may not come across as much in a profile view
Herr is one of the coins of Juba II's father Juba I , king of Numidia It looks a bit peculiar. Is that his hair? It seems incongruous with his European looking features and beard How accurate is was it to his actual physical appearance?
Does this look believable?
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Why not simply because they look like that ? Do you think my face would have looked "european" on coins ? If they were following specific cannons without any kind of realism then we should expect homogeneous depictions but that's not the case they're all unique and show specific traits moreover roman emperors put their real faces on those coins so I don't see why NAs kings wouldn't have done the same.
There is no "broad" features on Juba II he looks typically north african (I'd say even typically moroccan) and about juba I yes that's his hair but these are not "dreads" but plainted hair they used to do that with a stick like for example modern afars do :
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: juba I yes that's his hair but these are not "dreads" but plainted hair they used to do that with a stick like for example modern afars do :
[/QB]
How do we know this is not natural locking of the hair, that when you don't comb it and leave it alone, it locks up like this, not those neater, thinner Afar curls?
How do we know if his beard was really like that?
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yet in the many coins of Juba II he is always looking thoroughly European
no that's a 2d profile depiction of him what do you expect ? If you put my face on it it would be the same
here my profile :
Will you say I'm european now ?
Your profile looks nothing like those Greek profiles
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yet in the many coins of Juba II he is always looking thoroughly European
no that's a 2d profile depiction of him what do you expect ? If you put my face on it it would be the same
here my profile :
Will you say I'm european now ?
Your profile looks nothing like those Greek profiles
You look Spanish to me...
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yet in the many coins of Juba II he is always looking thoroughly European
no that's a 2d profile depiction of him what do you expect ? If you put my face on it it would be the same
here my profile :
Will you say I'm european now ?
Your profile looks nothing like those Greek profiles
You look Spanish to me...
You probably confuse mexicans with spaniards but anyway my profile is perfectly caucasoid like on those coins so such profiles are not exclusive to europeans
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the wideness of the nose is not captured in the profile view. This nose is not that common in so called Caucasians although there may be some
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Wait a minute, our French buddy here insists Carthaginians were all "Caucasoid" like himself based on certain portraiture (all of which bears obvious Greek or Roman artistic influences). Yet, when presented with evidence that some Carthaginian skeletal remains physically resembled those of African-Americans, he claims that they had to have been the remains of "Caucasoid" North Africans like himself.
So, does that mean ancient and modern North Africans are "Caucasoids" who happen to have crania that could be confused with those of modern African-Americans? Are African-American people now "Caucasoid" too since they supposedly resemble modern North African "Caucasoids" at the skeletal level?
I'll grant that the Ibiza study's methodology is a bit imprecise and would benefit from comparisons to various North African populations across time, but c'mon, if ancient Carthaginians were so uniformly "Caucasoid", you'd think none of them would have crania that would be confused for those of a population that is 70-75% West or Central African on average.
P.S. The reconstruction from the Ibiza paper, the one our French friend claimed "looked North African instead of Black", was one of the ones their software identified as a "White male", not a "Black male". Read the caption. They don't appear to have a reconstruction of any of the "Black" specimens.
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