quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Also, what xyyman 'forgot' to mention in his attempt to label all inconvenient ancestry "recent Ottoman Turk" and all convenient ancestry "ancient SSA lineage":
[QUOTE]
"West Asian" = Ottoman Turks! look it up! Modern Egyptians are heavily admixed with Ottoman Turks. This is why Henn and other researchers use Bedoiuns and NOT the ruling class in the Levant for their studies. They are NOT indigenous!!! The Bedouins are!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Do you now understand why modern Egyptians cluster LESS with the Amarnas than with SSA?!
Because although modern Egyptians are indeed Africans but they are heavily admixed with Ottomans Turks COMPARED to other Africans even Maghrebis.
Visuals aside........
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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You didn't even respond to what I was saying in that post.
But if you think this man will have more ties with DNA Tribes Great Lakes and South Africa regions than other DNA Tribes regions closer to Egypt (and you've clearly convinced yourself of this delusion) you're beyond help.
posted
Some, like Wally, think that AE was a microcosm of the entire African continent with many disparate African ethnic groups represented. Some think AE was a microcosm of regional diversity. Two different scales of heterogeneity. But feel free to elaborate what you mean..
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Some, like Wally, think that AE was a microcosm of the entire African continent with many African ethnic groups represented. Some think AE was a microcosm of regional diversity. Two different scales of heterogeneity. But feel free to elaborate what you mean..
I don't know about the "entire" African continent, but I do believe Ancient Egypt was a microcosm of the Green Sahara and Nile Valley.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Some, like Wally, think that AE was a microcosm of the entire African continent with many African ethnic groups represented. Some think AE was a microcosm of regional diversity. Two different scales of heterogeneity. But feel free to elaborate what you mean..
I don't know about the "entire" African continent, but I do believe Ancient Egypt was a microcosm of the Green Sahara and Nile Valley.
Feel free to build a hypothesis with various lines of evidence to support that. There is more than enough published data available.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Some, like Wally, think that AE was a microcosm of the entire African continent with many African ethnic groups represented. Some think AE was a microcosm of regional diversity. Two different scales of heterogeneity. But feel free to elaborate what you mean..
I don't know about the "entire" African continent, but I do believe Ancient Egypt was a microcosm of the Green Sahara and Nile Valley.
Feel free to build a hypothesis with various lines of evidence to support that. There is more than enough published data available.
Indeed, but first I'm going to have to gather some of the sources. Been thinking about making a thread on this.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Another thread? A lot of people on this forum like walking around with artificial uncertainties, trying to keep things that can be resolved right away open-ended forever. PC Sereno et al 2008 have a good sample of Green Sahara and coastal Maghrebi populations and they've published their measurements. Measurements of Naqada and Badari populations are also available online. All one needs is initiative.
There is really no reason why we shouldn't have closed in on the general outlines of population affinity by now.
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posted
Deleted. Whoever wants to put forth a case or a counter case should do so the way everyone else does it. By presenting evidence of their own. Bad habit of me to not give people room to do that. Posting my own data and evidence seems to just create more resistance, as the topic keeps resurfacing.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Some, like Wally, think that AE was a microcosm of the entire African continent with many African ethnic groups represented. Some think AE was a microcosm of regional diversity. Two different scales of heterogeneity. But feel free to elaborate what you mean..
I don't know about the "entire" African continent, but I do believe Ancient Egypt was a microcosm of the Green Sahara and Nile Valley.
It would make intuitive sense, but what do you mean by "Green Sahara" and "Nile Valley" here? Are you referencing two different basic stocks? What kind of people do you think constituted the "Green Sahara" or "Nile Valley" populations?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Another thread? A lot of people on this forum like walking around with artificial uncertainties, trying to keep things that can be resolved right away open-ended forever. PC Sereno et al 2008 have a good sample of Green Sahara and coastal Maghrebi populations and they've published their measurements. Measurements of Naqada and Badari populations are also available online. All one needs is initiative.
There is really no reason why we shouldn't have closed in on the general outlines of population affinity by now.
Well, I'm a bit of a late comer on this site and I'm not aware which topics have been thoroughly addressed already.
But anyways like I said I believe Ancient Egypt was a microcosm of the Green Sahara and Nile Valley.
For one I believe Nilotic speaking people are the oldest people on the Nile Vally and would represent the Nile Valley origins of the Ancient Egyptians.
quote:Accordingly, through limited on number of aDNA samples, there is enough data to suggest and to tally with the historical evidence of the dominance by Nilotic elements during the early state formation in the Nile Valley, and as the states thrived there was a dominance by other elements particularly Nuba / Nubians. In Y-chromosome terms this mean in simplest terms introgression of the YAP insertion (haplogroups E and D), and Eurasian Haplogroups which are defined by F-M89 against a background of haplogroup A-M13.
I think I even recall S.O.Y Keita even stating that the early periods of predynastic Egypt was dominated by Nilotic type people, but were then later absorbed by migrating Afro-Asiatic people.
Additionally one can only look to their cattle raising background which has more common with modern day Nilotic groups like those from Southern Sudan.
As for the Green Sahara I thoroughly assume that the Green Sahara was the incubator for African culture/civilizations. Anyways, I suspect that the animal head cults that the Ancient Egyptians believed in came from the Sahara.
quote:Art of the Egyptian Nile flourished much later than that of Saharan and Sudan Africa. The Sahara representations of oxen with discs between their horns is much earlier than those of the cow-goddess Hathor. The hawk delicately carved on the sandstone plaque of Hammada el Guir is much earlier than the ram of Amon [known from the 12th Dynasty onwards]. When Andre Malraux looked at the animal heads at Oued Djera, he considered them to be "forerunners of the Egyptian animal deities." The same no doubt holds for the bird-headed goddess at Jabbaran. Semi-naturalism only appears in Egypt in the Gerzean period and is derived from Saharan ox period carvings ... Egypt had a tremendous influence on the interior of Africa ... but what is even more certain is that the prehistoric civilizations of the Sahara is earlier in time ... It was only from the so-called "historic" period onwards that Egyptian civilization achieved that splendor as a result of which everything is now attributed. But where art and technology is concerned, the focal points were originally in the modern republic of the Sudan, in East Africa, and the Near East. Moreover, the prehistoric Sudan owed much more to southeastern influence that to those from the Near East (1981:676).
There would have not only been Nilo-Saharan speakers in the Sahara at the time, but also Afro-Asiatic and even ancestors of Niger-Congo speakers.
From what I read before the desertification of the Sahara you would have had a mixing of different Africans. There has been some evidence from a DNA standpoint that puts majority of West African lineages in East Africa i.e the region of Ethiopia.
This is also where the father of both main groups of Africans originated (PN2 sub-clade), these two high frequency sub-clades the E-M2 (now V38) and E-M215/M35 are the most widespread high frequency subclades in Africa.
E-M2 which is carried by mostly Niger-Congo speakers is the most wide spread African lineage on continent but is mostly associated with West Africans. From what I read you can find pockets of it in the Sahara and you can find in high frequency in Upper Egypt.
However the clade is not really seen in Sudan We do know that Ramses III was tested positive for E-M2. My opinion is that E-M2 in Upper Egypt and the one in King Ramses is remnants from the Green Sahara.
As for Afro-Asiatic speakers they would have definitely been represented in the Green Sahara especially Berber speaking groups.
Also many of the modern lineages in horners if I remember correctly come from Egypt. I also think a non-Berber group of Afro-Asiatic would have entered Egypt from the East and introduced Afro-Asiatic later i.e around the dynastic period.
For now I'll go and say that my theory is that Lower Egypt near the delta represented people from the Levant. Northwest Egypt represented Berber speakers from the Green Sahara. The Eastern desert of Egypt represented Afro-Asiatic speakers similar to the Beja. During the early formation of Egypt, it would have been dominated by more "Sudanese" or Nilotic like people but then they would have been asborbed probably Afro-Asiatic speakers especially by the time of the New Kingdom. But those types would have dominated Upper Egypt. Finally I believe you would have small sprinkles of ancestors Niger-Congo speakers(Sahelian/Saharan Nilo-Saharans) in Southwest Egypt who a remnants of the Green Sahara.
But more importantly these people would have probably been mixing in Egypt and because of this while I believe the Ancient Egyptians would have been indigenous Africans, they would have had their own unique phenotypes. I'll stop there for now.
This is my theory and I know I need more evidence posted. I personally believe in my honest opinuon that the Natufians were more related to Afro-Asiatic speaking Egyptian people from the Red Sea coast of Egypt and Sudan. To me that makes sense.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Okay BBH. When you show evidence of the skeletal remains of these disparate African populations living side by side over time, I have something to work with.
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^Which is why I said I intended to create a thread where I will better organize my thoughts and better collective of evidence.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:When you read the link that I am going to post below the entire area and Western deserts of Sudan and seem to have nothing to do with E-m35 (Afroasiatic) speakers at all and more indicates the [presence of Nilo-Saharan folks and Saharan folks. At times affiliated with those more Western Nilo-Saharans with Autosomal west African ancestry.....But mostly Southrern Sudanese who are very heavy in A and B.
quote: Thus it became possible to draw conclusions about the affinities the Wadi Howar material shared with prehistoric as well as modern populations and to answer questions concerning the diachronic links between the Wadi Howar’s prehistoric populations. When the Wadi Howar remains were positioned in the context of the selected prehistoric (Jebel Sahaba/Tushka, A-Group, Malian Sahara) and modern comparative samples (Southern Sudan, Chad, Mandinka, Somalis, Haya) in this fashion three main findings emerged. Firstly, the series as a whole displayed very strong affinities with the prehistoric sample from the Malian Sahara (Hassi el Abiod, Kobadi, Erg Ine Sakane, etc.) and the modern material from Southern Sudan and, to a lesser extent, Chad. Secondly, the pre-Leiterband and the Leiterband sub-sample were closer to the prehistoric Malian as well as the modern Southern Sudanese material than they were to each other. Thirdly, the group of pre-Leiterband individuals approached the Late Pleistocene sample from Jebel Sahaba/Tushka under certain circumstances. A theory offering explanations for these findings was developed. According to this theory, the entire prehistoric population of the Wadi Howar belonged to a Saharo-Nilotic population complex. The Jebel Sahaba/Tushka population constituted an old Nilotic and the early population of the Malian Sahara a younger Saharan part of this complex. The A-Group, on the other hand, was not a Saharo-Nilotic population . The pre-Leiterband groups probably colonised the Wadi Howar from the east, either during or soon after the original Saharo-Nilotic expansion. Consequently, they retained stronger affinities with the Late Pleistocene Jebel Sahaba/Tushka population from the eastern Saharo-Nilotic periphery. Unlike the pre-Leiterband groups, the Leiterband people originated somewhere west of the Wadi Howar. They entered the region in the context of a later, secondary Saharo-Nilotic expansion. In the process, the incoming Leiterband groups absorbed many members of the Wadi Howar’s older pre-Leiterband population. The increasing aridification of the Wadi Howar region ultimately forced its prehistoric inhabitants to abandon the wadi. Most of them migrated south and west. They, or groups closely related to them, were the ancestors of the majority of the Nilo- Saharan-speaking pastoralists of modern-day Southern Sudan and Eastern Chad.
Chad affinity is based on = 7 Tubu, 3 Kanembu, 1Kanuri, 4 Buduma, 2 Kuri, 1 Sara, 4 Mundang.
Notice what they say about the A-Group Nubians.....that they were not a part of the Saharan Nilotic Complex. I of course I didnt read all 1400 pages but They seem to be using a "true Negro" type analysis as they note North African affinities with the Kanuri and Kanembou. If A-Group cluster with Egyptians then.... That said the Y-Chromosome analysis of A-Group Nubians proves them to be "Nilotic" enough, or at least carry A3b2 at overwhelming frequencies which is a lineage NOW mostly associated with Southern Sudanese and Horn [/qb]
@ BBH If you feel Upper Egypt and Nubia were dominated by Southern Sudanese types (what Becker calls "Saharo-Nilotic") during the "early formation period", how do you square that with the data showing a physical distinction between A-Group Nubians (whom we know were closely related to predynastic Upper Egyptians) and the Wadi Howar/South Sudanese types? Not saying there wasn't admixture between those stocks in the area, but the picture I see emerging isn't the same as what you claim.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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And my argument that Nilotic speakers dominated the early formation of state in the Nile Valley comes from this study, "Genetic Patterns of Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variation, with Implications to the Peopling of the Sudan." http://khartoumspace.uofk.edu/handle/123456789/6376
Also in that same post Beyoku says this:
quote: That said the Y-Chromosome analysis of A-Group Nubians proves them to be "Nilotic" enough, or at least carry A3b2 at overwhelming frequencies which is a lineage NOW mostly associated with Southern Sudanese and Horn
Anyways not trying argue, thanks for the link to the thread.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Interesting exchange. I hope it's clear now why I deleted that post.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^I'm not claiming anything just theories.=
In science, theories are designed to explain data. Much of what you offered sounds more like a bunch of hypotheses that need to be tested.
As for the Neolithic Sudanese remains that yielded Haplogroup A, I believe they're from a sample Becker characterized as "biologically North African". Of course you could fairly object to his language as misleading since "North African" connotes a Mediterranean/Arabic/"Caucasoid" appearance in many people's minds, but in the end the remains still seem to be physically distinct from the South Sudanese norm. So I would say that goes to show you that Hap. A isn't exclusively a South Sudanese haplogroup (though it is clearly African in origin).
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^I'm not claiming anything just theories.=
In science, theories are designed to explain data. Much of what you offered sounds more like a bunch of hypotheses that need to be tested.
As for the Neolithic Sudanese remains that yielded Haplogroup A, I believe they're from a sample Becker characterized as "biologically North African". Of course you could fairly object to his language as misleading since "North African" connotes a Mediterranean/Arabic/"Caucasoid" appearance in many people's minds, but in the end the remains still seem to be physically distinct from the South Sudanese norm. So I would say that goes to show you that Hap. A isn't exclusively a South Sudanese haplogroup (though it is clearly African in origin).
I agree that I should have used "hypthosis" uinstead of theory and thank you for correcting me on that.
However, when did I state that Haplogroup A is exclusive to Southern Sudanese?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^I'm not claiming anything just theories.=
In science, theories are designed to explain data. Much of what you offered sounds more like a bunch of hypotheses that need to be tested.
As for the Neolithic Sudanese remains that yielded Haplogroup A, I believe they're from a sample Becker characterized as "biologically North African". Of course you could fairly object to his language as misleading since "North African" connotes a Mediterranean/Arabic/"Caucasoid" appearance in many people's minds, but in the end the remains still seem to be physically distinct from the South Sudanese norm. So I would say that goes to show you that Hap. A isn't exclusively a South Sudanese haplogroup (though it is clearly African in origin).
I agree that I should have used "hypthosis" uinstead of theory and thank you for correcting me on that.
However, when did I state that Haplogroup A is exclusive to Southern Sudanese?
You're welcome.
You seemed to be implying that Hap. A indicated a "Nilotic" affinity. I took "Nilotic" to reference certain South Sudanese populations like the Dinka, Shilluk, Nuer, etc. So if Haplogroup A appears widespread in a population that is physically distinct from those groups, that suggests to me that this haplogroup by itself isn't a reliable indicator of "Nilotic" affinity.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Again I was going by the study, "Genetic Patterns of Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variation, with Implications to the Peopling of the Sudan." when they said this:
quote:Accordingly, through limited on number of aDNA samples, there is enough data to suggest and to tally with the historical evidence of the dominance by Nilotic elements during the early state formation in the Nile Valley, and as the states thrived there was a dominance by other elements particularly Nuba / Nubians. In Y-chromosome terms this mean in simplest terms introgression of the YAP insertion (haplogroups E and D), and Eurasian Haplogroups which are defined by F-M89 against a background of haplogroup A-M13.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Do you now understand why modern Egyptians cluster LESS with the Amarnas than with SSA?!
Because although modern Egyptians are indeed Africans but they are heavily admixed with Ottomans Turks COMPARED to other Africans even Maghrebis.
Visuals aside........
You have said elsewhere that J2 is Ottoman Turk DNA The highest percentage showing is along the first row "Egyptians" J2 12%
So you are saying thus 12% J2 is the only male haplogroup which represents "heavily admixed with Ottomans Turks" ?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Remember the male of our species determine the sex of the offspring(50/50 chance?). However ~16/18%(DNATribes) do NOT represent males only but both sexes.
So if you extrapolate and interpret the 12% J2 makes sense.
Comprendo!?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Remember the male of our species determine the sex of the offspring(50/50 chance?). However ~16/18%(DNATribes) do NOT represent males only but both sexes.
So if you extrapolate and interpret the 12% J2 makes sense.
Comprendo!?
no, none of that made sense to me. You said that Egyptians Egyptians are heavily admixed with Ottomans Turks
so you are referring to only J2 and referring to 12% as the extent of heavy admixture with non-Africans?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Maybe the females are killed off at a higher rate.
12% J2 male + 6% female = 18%
Islam being a archaic religion don't value their women?
====
lol! May be I am overextending myself? It is a stretch Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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From: The prehistoric inhabitants of the Wadi Howar An anthropological study of human skeletal remains from the Sudanese part of the Eastern Sahara
quote: A principal component analysis of the FST values of the Sudanese, a Senegalese and two Ethiopian samples produced a plot with two clearly separated clusters. The first cluster consisted of the Nilo-Saharan-speaking groups from Western as well as Southern Sudan, i.e. the Borgu, Masalit, Fur, Shilluk, Dinka, Nuer and Nuba. It also included the Cushitic-speaking Oromo from Ethiopia. Except for the Senegalese, which were positioned far away from either grouping, all remaining samples formed the second cluster. Two lines could be 41 distinguished within this second cluster. The first line, which was closer to the first cluster, was comprised of Amhara, Beja, Hausa and Fulani. The second line, which was further removed from the first cluster, constituted an alignment of Copts, Nubians and the three Arab groups.
South & south West Sudanese populations form a unique cluster - Eastern/north eastern sudanese, western Ethiopians and the fulani find themselves in between but aligned with the copts, Nubian and Arab cluster.
quote: Indigenous populations were represented by the Northern Sudanese Nubians and Beja, the Western Sudanese Borgu, Masalit and Fur and the Southern Sudanese Shilluk, Dinka, Nuer and Nuba. Copts, Fulani and Hausa as well as Gaalien, Meseria and Arakien Arabs were used as non-indigenous samples. The study found that the haplogroups F, I, J, K, R are common among the Niger-Congo-speaking Fulani and the Afro-Asiaticspeaking Arabs, Copts, Beja and Hausa. A, B and E**, on the other hand, are more frequent among the Nilo-Saharan-speaking Borgu, Masalit, Fur, Shilluk, Dinka and Nuer.
..Ok ? from: Hassan 2008
quote: Haplogroup frequencies in 15 Sudanese populations are given in Figure 2 following YCC nomenclature (2002). Haplogroups A-M13 and B-M60 are present at high frequencies in Nilo-Saharan groups except Nubians, with low frequencies in Afro-Asiatic groupsalthough notable frequencies of B-M60 were found in Hausa (15.6%) and Copts (15.2%). Haplogroup E (four different haplotypes) accounts for the majority (34.4%) of the chromosome and is widespread in the Sudan.
I'm guessing the guys researching the Wadi Howar were cherry picking a lil bit to help strengthen the language phylum/genetic phylum correspondence but nonetheless I find something interesting...
quote: E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur... Me: ^ your unique "native" west Sudanese group
...populations. E-M33 (5.2%) is largely confined to Fulani and Hausa, *whereas E-M2 is restricted to Hausa.* E-M215 was found to occur more in Nilo-Saharan rather than Afro-Asiatic speaking groups. In contrast, haplogroups F-M89, I-M170, J-12f2, and JM172 were found to be more frequent in the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups. J-12f2 and J-M172 represents 94% and 6%, respectively, of haplogroup J with high frequencies among Nubians, Copts, and Arabs. Haplogroup K-M9 is restricted to Hausa and Gaalien with low frequencies and is absent in Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo. Haplogroup R-M173 appears to be the most frequent haplogroup in Fulani, and haplogroup R-P25 has the highest frequency in Hausa and Copts and is present at lower frequencies in north, east, and western Sudan. Haplogroups A-M51, A-M23, D-M174, H-M52, L-M11, OM175, and P-M74 were completely absent from the populations analyzed.
- I'd like to point out that between the Natufian OOA exit and the dawn of History, the nile most likely was dominated with E-M215 and earlier populations on the Pn2 clade (I'm probably playing 'catchup' here, sorry). as the obvious indigenous footprints suggests just that. - Unless J1 originated in Ethiopia somehow, the Sudanese Copts are a poor representation of the Earlier or maybe even the dynastic period of Km.t & the indigenous nile valley. - There is a blatent discontinuity between the southern and south west sudanese groups at least as far as Y-Dna goes. The Aridification of Wadi Howar should have lead to geneflow into neighboring territory. Maybe Dobun et al. had bad samples? maybe they radiated north east and was absorbed by the urbanization? or maybe we even lost a lot of genetic material due to the high mortality rates of the Arab slave trade and conquest? - both the fulani and Hausa cultures stretches laterally accross the sahel and carry a heterogenous set of markers, I'm curious to exlpain why exactly does E-M2 pop up w/ the hausa. Does anyone know if there's any comparative analysis on sudanya Hausa/sandwe or Hausa west ethiopian samples?
Thanks so far you guys, special shout outs to Swenet and XyzMan... Keep arguing with each other!!
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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I see no coherent cases or counter cases. All I see is patchworks of data stitched into superficially credible ideas that don't really refute opposing views.
For instance, the only way you can get the idea that E-M78 is somehow not intrusive in Sudanese Nilo-Saharan speakers is if you ignore that E-M78 is not a strong common denominator in Nilo-Saharan speakers outside of Sudan or even outside of Darfur. How much E-M78 do the Ugandan Nilo-Saharan speaking Karamojong have? Exactly.
The arguments regarding the Sudanese Copts being admixed also seem hastily stitched together without understanding why the Copts were brought up. The reason why they were brought up is because they seem to bear little trace of Niger-Congo-like ancestry in Dobon et al despite that they carry African haplogroups shared by other modern Egyptian samples and despite that they fit in Dobon et al's regional autosomal profiles better than other modern Egyptian samples do. And while notable Niger-Congo-like ancestry doesn't seem to feature in them according to Dobon et al's analyses, it is implied that they carry the same northern African-like ancestry that is detected in Natufians.
It's interesting to me how much goodwill and benefit of doubt is needed to entertain some of the claims being made. A lot of dubious views on AE and Maghrebi population affinity haven't been rejected yet despite mountains of available evidence to the contrary, because people seem to willfully block out what they don't want to hear. How many people have read the L2 paper and adopted what it says? I find myself having to post it again and again.
That's why I'll insist that people who object to what I say bring out credible counter arguments from now on as opposed to further clarifying myself with more data.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Here is Mr. Amarna himself or someone close to him. People are just going to pretend there is a remote chance that his cranio-facial appearance is more consistent with DNA Tribes' pooled South African region than with DNA Tribes regions closer to Egypt? Xyyman? You didn't respond.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: And while notable Niger-Congo-like ancestry doesn't seem to feature in them according to Dobon et al's analyses, it is implied that they carry the same northern African-like ancestry that is detected in Natufians.
Egyptian Copts, presumably the ones from Sudan, close to Natufians:
quote: Davidski said... Here's a plot with a couple of Samaritans (black squares) and an Egyptian Copt (black star).
Not that the lower righthand section of that PCA is not heavily associated with ancient Egyptian ancestry in general.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I see no coherent cases or counter cases. All I see is patchworks of data stitched into superficially credible ideas that don't really refute opposing views.
For instance, the only way you can get the idea that E-M78 is somehow not intrusive in Sudanese Nilo-Saharan speakers ^ not my point or Idea is if you ignore that E-M78 is not a strong common denominator in Nilo-Saharan speakers outside of Sudan or even outside of Darfur. How much E-M78 do the Karamojong have? ^ this is more my point, & Inquiry. why do these guys (Darfurian/Nilotes) cluster individually? Karamojong has like 6% of E-M35 all together
The arguments regarding the Sudanese Copts being admixed also seem hastily stitched together without understanding why the Copts were brought up. The reason why they were brought up is because they seem to bear little trace of Niger-Congo-like ancestry in Dobon et al despite that they carry African haplogroups shared by other modern Egyptian samples and despite that they fit in Dobon et al's regional autosomal profiles better than other modern Egyptian samples do. And while notable Niger-Congo-like ancestry doesn't seem to feature in them according to Dobon et al's analyses, it is implied that they carry the same African ancestry that is detected in Natufians.
All of this is cool but, they still carry OOA ancestry, and I expect that they should* have correspondence w/ Natufian ancestry, cuz, ...y'know, geography .... being that contemporary Nubians and egyptians cluster well with each other and the northern sudanya was not heavily effected by later geneflow from the ME, like the egyptians were, its only common sense that they'd fit older egyptian populations via microsatellite and physical components as well as or better than the egyptians would.... But is that enough to say they best represent say.. the predynastic/dynastic population despite all of their OOA admixture?
It's interesting to me how much goodwill and benefit of doubt is needed to entertain some of the claims being made. A lot of dubious views on AE and Maghrebi population affinity haven't been rejected yet despite mountains of available evidence to the contrary, because people seem to willfully block out what they don't want to hear.
I'm not trying to make a case yet, I feel like I need more clarification before I could do so. I'm primarily concerned with the distribution of the E haplogroup, just trying to make sense of it based on what I have now... by raising questions. Not everything have to be "refuted"
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: not my point or Idea
I thought you were criticizing Becker for emphasizing that mid-holocene variation in the Sahara was mainly structured along the lines of old ancestral groups already attested in the early holocene? Can you clarify what you meant then?
As for Copts and their relationships to Natufians, people have been saying for years that the Natufians fit in the range of variations of Niger-Congo speakers. For this reason, I don't think it's self-evident at all to point out that the African ancestry in Copts and Natufians overlaps and is mostly distinct from other types of African ancestry on the continent. To try to act like it was always self-evident that modern North Africans would be among the closest to the Natufians simply because of geography ... c'mon now. Pro-'black' Egypt posters here would have scoffed at you for less in 2012. In fact, I remember being called a racist and 'spinmaster' for saying things of this nature.
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I've bolded all the African mtDNA haplogroups, with L3 in black and all the rest in red. I presume L3 is the "pre-OOA" haplogroup whereas all the other Ls are associated with "SSAs". And right now I am seeing quite a bit of red in this sample.
Of course, haplogroups are not autosomal data, so I wouldn't say this negates the observation of Egypto-Nubians mostly coming from a different African stock from the "Niger-Congo" archetype. I also don't know if the "SSA" haplogroups all came in during the mid-Holocene "Green Sahara"; like Swenet said, some of it may have come in during the late Pleistocene/early Holocene time frame (which would make it contemporaneous with the Natufians). But if it makes certain people here feel better, I would say this might be evidence of AEs inheriting some degree of "SSA" admixture in addition to the eastern Saharan ancestry they share with Natufians.
EDIT: I'm looking for Y- and mtDNA data on the Coptic sample mentioned earlier. All I can recall at the moment is that they do have some African Y-DNA but also some Eurasian mtDNA. If they have any of the "sub-Saharan" mtDNAs I bolded in red in that AE sample, it might show you can have a significant level of "sub-Saharan" mtDNA haps without a corresponding significant autosomal input.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
^^^^It is very important for you to understand this. It's genetic 101. I know you have limited genetic knowledge and thus must rely on Swenet and Beyoku for your information. But those 2 are racists idiots. They are trying to disconnect Ancient Egypt from the rest of Africa (aka sub-Saharan Africa). But you never see them trying to disconnect Ancient Greece from European or American history. We must always remember the DNA Tribes results, Ramses III being E1b1a, Kadruka, Nabta Playa and the common origin of all African people including Ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Y-DNA A, B, E, MtDNA L). Never let anybody tell you otherwise.
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Would you stop it already .....that data was never published and therefore irrelevant. It might as well be made by a sixth grader. It should NEVER be referenced!!
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: Going through beyoku's list of Old/Middle Kingdom Egyptian haplogroups...
[.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Lol. Salty buffoon. Notice how the quote-mining liar consistently doesn't mention Fox's Nubian sample in his carefully screened list of ancient Nile Valley aDNA. The minority of HpaI 3592 mtDNAs complicates his web of lies so he deliberately omits them. Always spamming Ramses III and Kadruka like a broken record with an IQ of 12.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Would you stop it already .....that data was never published and therefore irrelevant. It might as well be made by a sixth grader. It should NEVER be referenced!!
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: Going through beyoku's list of Old/Middle Kingdom Egyptian haplogroups...
[.
Technically, neither were the DNA Tribes papers (at least, not published in a peer-review paper). I know the unpublished nature of this data might warrant a certain degree of caution, but personally I doubt beyoku or a "sixth grader" would be faking it all. And since we're discussing whether or not AE had admixture from so-called "sub-Saharan" Africans, I wanted to see what people here would make of it.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I thought you were criticizing Becker for emphasizing that mid-holocene variation in the Sahara was mainly structured along the lines of old ancestral groups already attested in the early holocene? Can you clarify what you meant then?
When was E-M78 introduced to the southwest Nilotic speakers of Sudan?
As for Copts and their relationships to Natufians, people have been saying for years that the Natufians fit in the range of variations of Niger-Congo speakers. For this reason, I don't think it's self-evident at all to point out that the African ancestry in Copts and Natufians overlaps and is mostly distinct from other types of African ancestry on the continent. To try to act like it was always self-evident that modern North Africans would be among the closest to the Natufians simply because of geography ... c'mon now. Pro-'black' Egypt posters here would have scoffed at you for less in 2012. In fact, I remember being called a racist and 'spinmaster' for saying things of this nature.
Given the religious implications of what the Natufian sample can entail, I understand the nature of whatever criticism researchers might have to endure. with that being said, leave me out of it. Now if you look at the map of Afrasia and point to the said origin of E1b1, or E-M215 even, drag your finger up to the Natufian cradle, Mark it, Then point to the said origin of J1 then drag your finger down to mid-east sudan through Sinai, Everything should be evident (since we can Identify NAtufian Y-hap makeup). Its like a game of Mancala.
Admittedly I jumped the gun (it was late last night ) when posting beforehand, but I do have an overall Hypothesis of whats going on in totality, that I wont disclose until I have more information, which I was in hopes of getting earlier... For now, from my PoV (and even before the Natufian data dropped) Natufian =/= AE
posted
DJ the Hindu?
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Statement like these make you a person of suspicion. Why? you know better. DNATribes is not required to be peer-reviewed.
As been said many times. What DNATrbies did with the JAMA/Amarna results was showed the public how to analyzed the data presented by Hawass, Zink and Co.
Most Software will give the same results. The Amarnas were SSA!!!
No "peer review" required!
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Would you stop it already .....that data was never published and therefore irrelevant. It might as well be made by a sixth grader. It should NEVER be referenced!!
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: Going through beyoku's list of Old/Middle Kingdom Egyptian haplogroups...
[.
Technically, neither were the DNA Tribes papers (at least, not published in a peer-review paper)..
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: They are trying to disconnect Ancient Egypt from the rest of Africa (aka sub-Saharan Africa). But you never see them trying to disconnect Ancient Greece from European or American history.
History and genetics are two different things. For instance on the genetic level most European Americans ancestors are German, Irish Americans, English and Italians. Most have little if any Greek ancestry, except perhaps some Italians .
So if beyoku and Swenet spend equal time on this point on the genetic level it will balance out.
Also if you look at the influence of Greece on the European enlightenment it was significant but that had to do with a willful re-examination of old Greek writings. The Greek writings were forgotten but at a certain point they revived many of their ideas and they could only do that because they had the books and the translation. and then disseminated these writings
You don't see that in Africa with regards to Egypt. Egypt was a virtually dead civilization for 2000 years. Many of the tombs we know today were not even discovered until recently. Importantly their writing was not even deciphered until the early 19th century. So there has not been much of an influence on Africa after the demise of dynastic Egypt. Even during the time of Egyptian civilization they did not conquer regions much further away like West Africa. The Roman empire the other hand, heavily influenced by Greece was all over Europe at it's height and it's a much smaller region to cover than Africa
Roman empire at its height of power in 117 A.D
^ that's a Greco-Roman influence over Europe, much of the whole continent
Egyptian empire
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^by contrast, the Nile valley kingdoms including Egypt - in relation to Africa, they were only a small fraction of it
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From: The prehistoric inhabitants of the Wadi Howar An anthropological study of human skeletal remains from the Sudanese part of the Eastern Sahara
quote: A principal component analysis of the FST values of the Sudanese, a Senegalese and two Ethiopian samples produced a plot with two clearly separated clusters. The first cluster consisted of the Nilo-Saharan-speaking groups from Western as well as Southern Sudan, i.e. the Borgu, Masalit, Fur, Shilluk, Dinka, Nuer and Nuba. It also included the Cushitic-speaking Oromo from Ethiopia. Except for the Senegalese, which were positioned far away from either grouping, all remaining samples formed the second cluster. Two lines could be 41 distinguished within this second cluster. The first line, which was closer to the first cluster, was comprised of Amhara, Beja, Hausa and Fulani. The second line, which was further removed from the first cluster, constituted an alignment of Copts, Nubians and the three Arab groups.
South & south West Sudanese populations form a unique cluster - Eastern/north eastern sudanese, western Ethiopians and the fulani find themselves in between but aligned with the copts, Nubian and Arab cluster.
quote: Indigenous populations were represented by the Northern Sudanese Nubians and Beja, the Western Sudanese Borgu, Masalit and Fur and the Southern Sudanese Shilluk, Dinka, Nuer and Nuba. Copts, Fulani and Hausa as well as Gaalien, Meseria and Arakien Arabs were used as non-indigenous samples. The study found that the haplogroups F, I, J, K, R are common among the Niger-Congo-speaking Fulani and the Afro-Asiaticspeaking Arabs, Copts, Beja and Hausa. A, B and E**, on the other hand, are more frequent among the Nilo-Saharan-speaking Borgu, Masalit, Fur, Shilluk, Dinka and Nuer.
..Ok ? from: Hassan 2008
quote: Haplogroup frequencies in 15 Sudanese populations are given in Figure 2 following YCC nomenclature (2002). Haplogroups A-M13 and B-M60 are present at high frequencies in Nilo-Saharan groups except Nubians, with low frequencies in Afro-Asiatic groupsalthough notable frequencies of B-M60 were found in Hausa (15.6%) and Copts (15.2%). Haplogroup E (four different haplotypes) accounts for the majority (34.4%) of the chromosome and is widespread in the Sudan.
I'm guessing the guys researching the Wadi Howar were cherry picking a lil bit to help strengthen the language phylum/genetic phylum correspondence but nonetheless I find something interesting...
quote: E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur... Me: ^ your unique "native" west Sudanese group
...populations. E-M33 (5.2%) is largely confined to Fulani and Hausa, *whereas E-M2 is restricted to Hausa.* E-M215 was found to occur more in Nilo-Saharan rather than Afro-Asiatic speaking groups. In contrast, haplogroups F-M89, I-M170, J-12f2, and JM172 were found to be more frequent in the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups. J-12f2 and J-M172 represents 94% and 6%, respectively, of haplogroup J with high frequencies among Nubians, Copts, and Arabs. Haplogroup K-M9 is restricted to Hausa and Gaalien with low frequencies and is absent in Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo. Haplogroup R-M173 appears to be the most frequent haplogroup in Fulani, and haplogroup R-P25 has the highest frequency in Hausa and Copts and is present at lower frequencies in north, east, and western Sudan. Haplogroups A-M51, A-M23, D-M174, H-M52, L-M11, OM175, and P-M74 were completely absent from the populations analyzed.
- I'd like to point out that between the Natufian OOA exit and the dawn of History, the nile most likely was dominated with E-M215 and earlier populations on the Pn2 clade (I'm probably playing 'catchup' here, sorry). as the obvious indigenous footprints suggests just that. - Unless J1 originated in Ethiopia somehow, the Sudanese Copts are a poor representation of the Earlier or maybe even the dynastic period of Km.t & the indigenous nile valley.
The Copts of Egypt have distinct genetics from the Arab majority, with a lower degree of Middle Eastern ancestry and higher levels of North African and sub-Saharan African genetics. A 2008 study of a Copts of Egyptian descent (though living in Sudan) found relatively high frequencies of the Sub-Saharan Haplogroup B. According to the study, the presence of Sub-Saharan haplogroups may also be consistent with the historical record in which southern Egypt was colonized by Nilotic populations during the early state formation.
A 2015 study by Dobon et al. identified an ancestral autosomal component of West Eurasian origin that is common to many modern Afroasiatic-speaking populations in Northeast Africa, including Somalis and Sudanese. Known as the Coptic component, it peaks among Egyptian Copts who settled in Sudan over the past two centuries; but it is also found among Copts living in Northern and Southern Egypt. Copts also formed a separated group in PCA, a close outlier to other Egyptians, Northeast Africans and Middle East populations. The Coptic component evolved out of a main Northeast African and Middle Eastern ancestral component that is shared by other Egyptians and also found at high frequencies among other Afro-Asiatic populations in Northeast Africa (~70%), such as Somalis and Sudanese. The scientists suggest that this points to a common origin for the general population of Egypt. They also associate the Coptic component with Ancient Egyptian ancestry, without the later Arabian influence that is present among other Egyptians
The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape
Begoña Dobon, Hisham Y. Hassan, Hafid Laayouni, Pierre Luisi, Isis Ricaño-Ponce, Alexandra Zhernakova, Cisca Wijmenga, Hanan Tahir, David Comas, Mihai G. Netea & Jaume Bertranpetit Scientific Reports 5, Article number: 9996 (2015)
The North African/Middle Eastern genetic component is identified especially in Copts. The Coptic population present in Sudan is an example of a recent migration from Egypt over the past two centuries. They are close to Egyptians in the PCA, but remain a differentiated cluster, showing their own component at k = 4 (Fig. 3). Copts lack the influence found in Egyptians from Qatar, an Arabic population. It may suggest that Copts have a genetic composition that could resemble the ancestral Egyptian population, without the present strong Arab influence.
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Also as reported by Beyoku a couple years ago in a yet to be published report.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Most Software will give the same results. The Amarnas were SSA!!!
Which "software"? Name them, please. DNA Tribes has never been replicated. Stop lying.
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I know this PM may not be of much interest to you, but sent you it to give a clearer image of what I really trying to express.
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.... being that contemporary Nubians and egyptians cluster well with each other and the northern sudanya was not heavily effected by later geneflow from the ME, like the egyptians were, its only common sense that they'd fit older egyptian populations via microsatellite and physical components as well as or better than the egyptians would.... But is that enough to say they best represent say.. the predynastic/dynastic population despite all of their OOA admixture?
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) when posting beforehand, but I do have an overall Hypothesis of whats going on in totality, that I wont disclose until I have more information, which I was in hopes of getting earlier... For now, from my PoV (and even before the Natufian data dropped) Natufian =/= AE 
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