posted
There's obviously a large foreign element in Modern Egypt. But of the modern Egyptians, which tribes in Egypt are best/good genealogical reflections of continuation of the AE genetics? Which maintain the best historical record of connection to the ancients?
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: There's obviously a large foreign element in Modern Egypt. But of the modern Egyptians, which tribes in Egypt are best/good genealogical reflections of continuation of the AE genetics? Which maintain the best historical record of connection to the ancients?
Copts in Sudan who migrated there from Egypt
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: There's obviously a large foreign element in Modern Egypt. But of the modern Egyptians, which tribes in Egypt are best/good genealogical reflections of continuation of the AE genetics? Which maintain the best historical record of connection to the ancients?
Copts in Sudan who migrated there from Egypt
Why Copts? What makes them better representatives than indigenous Muslim Upper Egyptians?
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: There's obviously a large foreign element in Modern Egypt. But of the modern Egyptians, which tribes in Egypt are best/good genealogical reflections of continuation of the AE genetics? Which maintain the best historical record of connection to the ancients?
Copts in Sudan who migrated there from Egypt
Being a copt is not being part of an ethnic group. Rather it is being part of a religious group!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The Coptic language developed around 300 C.E. in Egypt. It is Egyptian language written using the Greek alphabet, as well as a couple of Demotic signs. This script was much easier to learn than the earlier writing systems used in ancient Egypt: hieroglyphic, hieratic and demotic scripts.
[...]
Egypt’s Coptic period—also called Egypt’s Christian period—lasted 500 years, from the fourth century to the ninth century C.E., when the majority of Egypt’s population was Christian. The major shift in religion—from the old Egyptian religion to Christianity—occurred in Egypt between 200 and 400 C.E. This change was undoubtedly accelerated when Constantine declared Christianity a legal religion in 313 C.E.
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: There's obviously a large foreign element in Modern Egypt. But of the modern Egyptians, which tribes in Egypt are best/good genealogical reflections of continuation of the AE genetics? Which maintain the best historical record of connection to the ancients?
quote: Summary The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers.
This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations.
Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population.
Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt
A. Stevanovitch1,*, A. Gilles2, E. Bouzaid1, R. Kefi1, F. Paris3, R. P. Gayraud4, J. L. Spadoni1, F. El-Chenawi5 andE. Béraud-Colomb1,*
quote:Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency.
I don't know if I'm reading this right but why would M1 suggest genetic continuity? Does genetic research on AE Mtdna for example suggest the presence of it? Does anyone have any ES research/topics on the origins of haplogroup M? Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency.
I don't know if I'm reading this right but why would M1 suggest genetic continuity? Does genetic research on AE Mtdna for example suggest the presence of it? Does anyone have any ES research/topics on the origins of haplogroup M?
Ish Gebor will explain it to you in his own words
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Did you try a search like site:EgyptSearch.com key1 key2 ... keyX ie site:EgyptSearch.com m1 origin
This is how to access the archives. You can even add a nametag you trust ie site:EgyptSearch.com m1 origin oshun to narrow it down after you get returns from the original query.
quote:Originally posted by Oshun:
quote:Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency.
I don't know if I'm reading this right but why would M1 suggest genetic continuity? Does genetic research on AE Mtdna for example suggest the presence of it? Does anyone have any ES research/topics on the origins of haplogroup M?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Did you find that helpful or did I just waste my time? Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
So far I'm still having a bit of difficulty coming across a discussion of M1 in a way that answers my questions in a way I can really understand.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: So far I'm still having a bit of difficulty coming across a discussion of M1 in a way that answers my questions in a way I can really understand.
In very very very very very very simplified terms...
--M1 is an african exclusive mtdna haplotype --"cousin" Haplotypes are primarily found in india --No clear consensus on the origin of the parent haplogroup but just go with the grain and say somewhere in southwest asia. -- with exclusivity + high frequency in NE proximity of africa you wouldn't have to look to another Haplotype for "indigenous" continuity...Think about it.
Speaking of M1 Francesco Messina has a paper coming out Linking between genetic structure and geographical distance: study of the maternal gene pool in the Ethiopian population.
quote:Background: The correlation between genetics and geographical distance has al‐ ready been examined through the study of the dispersion of human populations, especially in terms of uniparental genetic markers.
Aim: The present work characterises, at the level of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), two new samples of Amhara and Oromo populations from Ethiopia to evaluate the possible pattern of distribution for mtDNA variation and to test the hypothesis of the Isolation-by-Distance (IBD) model among African, European, and Middle-Eastern populations.
Subjects and Methods: We analysed 173 individuals belonging to two ethnic groups of Ethiopia, Amhara and Oromo, by assaying HVS-I and HVS-II of mtDNA D-loop and informative coding region SNPs of mtDNA. Results: Our analysis suggests a relationship between genetic and geographic distances, affirming that the mtDNA pool of Africa, Europe, and the Middle East might be coherent with the IBD model. Moreover, the mtDNA gene pools of the SubSaharan African and Mediterranean populations were very different.
Conclusion: In this study the pattern of mtDNA distribution, beginning with the Ethiopian plateau, was tested in the IBD model. It could be affirmed that on a continent scale the mtDNA pool of Africa, Europe, and the Middle East might fall under the IBD model.
Abstract is a lil boring but the content in regards to genetic distribution is rather interesting... particularly Haplotype H and how it dictates how well populations correlate with the Isolation-By-Distance model.
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Does genetic research on AE Mtdna for example suggest the presence of it? Does anyone have any ES research/topics on the origins of haplogroup M? [/QB]
There is no genetic data published on AE mtDNA
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posted
but then how do we know haplogroup M1 was relevant to ancient Egypt at all? How do we know M1's presence suggests continuity?
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: but then how do we know haplogroup M1 was relevant to ancient Egypt at all? How do we know M1's presence suggests continuity?
we don't know it
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posted
I see a lot of "Gee, we don't knows". Whatsamatter lioness, the 'judger' of all information and others' expertise. Can't answer the question on your own before someone comes in and gives you the clues you need to get your google sessions going?
The answer: we know M1 is relevant to Egypt because it's deeply entrenched in the region. It's a defining feature of natives of the region and some Eurasians who have ancient admixture with natives of this region. All long-term residents along the African side of Red Sea coast have it. Not even one exception.
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posted
Oh, and I've abandoned my previous view re: what I thought was a non-African origin of this hg for some time. So, if my older views come up in the search results, they're dated. I've talked about my new views in some other places online for years but this subject hasn't come up on ES lately, so I never got the chance to clear that up here.
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That Messina paper will resolve a few issues . IBD from SSA to Europe using mtDNA . That approach is new. Similar to Kefi's 2014 paper on mtDNA-H.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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This article hypothesizes M came from east of India diversifying around the Malaysia region before it became prominent in India arguing that older lineages are found there
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However when we look at M1 in Africa it parallels haplogoup U6 and U5, in Egypt the Siwa berbers have relatively high frequencies of both
^^
M1 16+ %
U5 18%
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M1 is the African branch of M. It is not found in significant frequencies in Africa except among Siwas, Ethiopians (17%) and Somalis
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Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture in Eastern Africa
M. Gallego Llorente, Published 8 October 2015 on Science Express
Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup assignment
The mitochondrial haplogroup was determined following the analysis described by Skoglund et al in 2014 (48). In brief, this involved generating a consensus mitochondrial sequence using SAMtools (38) and assigning a haplogroup using HAPLOFIND (46) (Table S3). Depth of coverage was calculated using bedtools (Table S3), and mutations are reported with respect to the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence (49). Mota was assigned to haplogroup L3x2a. Haplogroup L3 arose 60-70 kya (50) in Eastern Africa where the richest present-day haplogroup diversity is found (51). All mitochondrial haplogroups found outside Africa descend from the L3 lineage and hence this haplogroup is associated with the spread of Homo sapiens out of Africa to the rest of the world (52). The subhaplogroup L3x2 is restricted to the Horn of Africa and the Nile Valley in modern Ethiopian samples (12), suggesting a degree of maternal continuity in Ethiopia over the past 4,500 years.
___________________________
So this Mota individual a 4,500 year old Ethiopian
(4,500 years ago = 2484 B.C.)
was mtDNA haplogroup L not M and was assigned to YDNA haplogroup E1b1.
Mota was hypothesized to represent a period before foreign admixture and was used to compare to modern Ethiopians who have the admixture
The maternal ancestry of Ethiopians is similarly diverse. About half (52.2%) of Ethiopians belongs to mtdna Haplogroups L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, or L6. These haplogroups are generally confined to the African continent. They also originated either in Ethiopia or very near. The other portion of the population belong to Haplogroup N (31%) and Haplogroup M1 (17%)
-Although this one ancient individual Mota who was of Hap L does not prove other Ethiopians of the same period, 4,500 were not Hap M1
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posted
Where did you get those numbers from for the MTDNA of Siwa? Source? That is the first I have seen an African population carry such a high frequency of U5. I am curious if it U5b or U5a? If my theory is correct it has to be U5a. The Eastern European version of U5 fitting the "Sahara pump" theory .
Also, macrogroup M....in Africa @ 1.3%. Wow!!!!
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posted
Interestingly, the study is claiming M is older in East Asia and Africa than India. So....they are assuming a over land migration through North Asia THEN onto India from East Asia . But they are confused with older M in Madagascar!!!!! Significance???
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interestingly, the study is claiming M is older in East Asia and Africa than India. So....they are assuming a over land migration through North Asia THEN onto India from East Asia . But they are confused with older M in Madagascar!!!!! Significance???
That is M23 not M1 and it's origin and age is unknown, stop the BS
plus look for the highest diversity of Hap M
quote: Concerning M23 haplotypes, one of the sequences corresponded to an individual in Dubai set to M*.
Tracing Arab-Islamic Inheritance in Madagascar: Study of the Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA in the Antemoro Mélanie Capredon , 2013
posted
Egyptians are more subSaharans compared to Maghrebians. ---- Abstract
The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A ****clear and significant genetic differentiation**** between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [Q] this has already been discussed many times with you xyyman in the same thread
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations C. Coudray1∗ , A. Olivieri2, A. Achilli2 2008
The other thing that set apart the Egyptian berbers from the Maghrebian berbers is the nearly none E-M81 clade sometimes called "the berber marker"
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My man looking like Morgan Freeman in Robin Hood. With the freckles and everything.
The phenotypical diversity of Siwans is striking. We see the same thing in the Khargha Oasis. You got the coastal Maghrebi looking Siwans (for the lack of a better term) and the more 'African' looking ones, with both often (but not always) having corresponding lighter and darker skin. The fact that these people live side by side for so long in the middle of the desert without becoming more homogeneous suggests that one of these has been intermingling more with new arrivals than the other.
Or maybe they're both diluted just as much and genetically unrepresentative of the ancient inhabitants. In this scenario the subset with more 'African' features simply look more like the ancient inhabitants but don't have this look because they're less diluted. Kellis burials and other ancient oasis inhabitants show commonalities with Nubian samples in Roman times (indicating migration from elsewhere on the continent, not necessarily northern Sudan) so more 'African' phenotypes don't always have to be a direct link to the ancient inhabitants.
quote:The results of the inter-regional comparison of trait frequencies demonstrate an overall affinity with North African populations, especially with several early Upper Egyptian and contemporary Lower Nubian groups. Despite these similarities, however, the Kellis assemblage remains relatively distinct in relation to the comparative groups. This is consistent with a geographically isolated population experiencing limited gene-flow.
Whatever their exact origin, these modern Siwans with darker skin and certain facial features would still be closer in phenotype to the original oasis Egyptians: Tomb of Bannentiu in Bahariya Oasis
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Kellis burials and other ancient oasis inhabitants show commonalities with Nubian samples in Roman times (indicating migration from elsewhere on the continent, not necessarily northern Sudan) so more 'African' phenotypes don't always have to be a direct link to the ancient inhabitants.
A sub-Saharan African Relief of Thutmose III 1479 a.C. - 1425 a.C. Egypt | Rijksmuseum van Oudheden
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: A sub-Saharan African
Any specific phenotype endemic to a place in SSA you're thinking of?
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: There's obviously a large foreign element in Modern Egypt. But of the modern Egyptians, which tribes in Egypt are best/good genealogical reflections of continuation of the AE genetics? Which maintain the best historical record of connection to the ancients?
Modern Egypt has much foreign admixture- the people there today are not identical to the ancients as some Eurocentrics, and color-conscious, fair-skinned Arabists claim.
But despite the heavy outside admixture, there is still a remnant pattern indicating continuity with the former populations. These later era "tail-enders" already began to be affected due to influx by Hyskos, Persians, Greeks etc, before the Arabs arrived. What many deliberately skip over is that the much talked about "continuity" ALSO INCLUDES AFRICAN ELEMENTS, which mixed with the outsiders. African elements today are STILL IN PLACE - so those who talk of "continuity" while trying to "distance" themselves from "anything African" are simply hypocrites or ignoramuses.
Now let's look at some possible remnant groups. There may be others as other posters no doubt have siad or can point to.
1) The Copts are one such, but it should be remembered that (a) the Copts are also admixed, and (b) the Copts themselves have distinct African elements among them, puncturing the pretensions of assorted light-skin-nad types who think they are so much more "pure" and special than anybody else.
2) People in Upper Egypt did not escape admixture with outside elements as the Dynastic era wound down, but Upper Egypt which many have shown has generally darker skin tones, and more links with sister African cultures next door in Nubia and the Sudan, also show distinct African elements indicating continuity despite the admixture, African elements have been in Egypt since Day One, they did not show up due to any "slave trade" as bullshiit Arabist/Eurocenric distorters allege.
3) WHich brings us to the Nubians, who of all the Nile Valley peoples are the closest to the ancient Egyptians- so close that sometimes the two peoples are indistinguishable in the archealogical record. Re modern Nubians, they too have been influenced by outsiders like the Arabs. Don't have a modern DNA profile on them at hand (maybe someone can post) but such is sure to show some linkages.
4) Also keep in mind that despite much effort by some modern Egyptians to "distance" themselves from "anything African", they completely fail. There are several links between modern Egyptian and today's African populations including blood groups, serum proteins and genetic disorders.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
excellent original perspective and presentation
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
@Oshun But at the end of the day, geneologically the Sudaniya Copts are the best fit, they lack the OOA admixture present in egypt reflecting integration from the past few centuries.
Whether or not the resemble the typical Aegyptian of lets say 1000bc? is another discussion/Debate.. As everyone stated so far, the contemporary Nile valley inhabitants are significantly admixed with a distinct SSA component that they cannot shake. ...complicated ****, but what you're looking for is definitely within the Northern Sudanese.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Yes! You are catching on.
quote: Kellis burials and other ancient oasis inhabitants show commonalities with Nubian samples in Roman times (indicating migration from elsewhere on the continent, not necessarily northern Sudan) so more 'African' phenotypes don't always have to be a direct link to the ancient inhabitants.
A sub-Saharan African Relief of Thutmose III 1479 a.C. - 1425 a.C. Egypt | Rijksmuseum van Oudheden
Could be, but that is not certain:
Thutmose III
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: but then how do we know haplogroup M1 was relevant to ancient Egypt at all? How do we know M1's presence suggests continuity?
I see several people already explained the in-and-outs.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interestingly, the study is claiming M is older in East Asia and Africa than India. So....they are assuming a over land migration through North Asia THEN onto India from East Asia . But they are confused with older M in Madagascar!!!!! Significance???
That is M23 not M1 and it's origin and age is unknown, stop the BS
plus look for the highest diversity of Hap M
quote: Concerning M23 haplotypes, one of the sequences corresponded to an individual in Dubai set to M*.
Tracing Arab-Islamic Inheritance in Madagascar: Study of the Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA in the Antemoro Mélanie Capredon , 2013
quote: "The presence of M haplogroup in Ethiopia, named M1, led to the proposal that haplogroup M originated in eastern Africa, approximately 60,000 years ago, and was carried towards Asia [34]. "
--T Kivisild
quote:localization and the ethnic group (Table 32-2). ... M1 originated in east Africa. Its high frequencies and diversities are found in Ethiopia (20.3%) and in Gurna in Egypt (17.6%). The haplogroup M1 marks an exit from Africa to the Near East (Quintana-Murci et al., 1999; ...
--A Stevanovitch , Dhavendrn Kumar (2004 - 2012)
Genomics and Health in the Developing World
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Other than the general rule that southern Egyptians in places like Luxor or Aswan probably have more indigenous Egyptian (i.e. Kemetic) ancestry, I think pretty much all Egyptians have some foreign ancestry to varying degrees. I would caution against singling out any ethnic group as the "purest" AEs.
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: Other than the general rule that southern Egyptians in places like Luxor or Aswan probably have more indigenous Egyptian (i.e. Kemetic) ancestry, I think pretty much all Egyptians have some foreign ancestry to varying degrees. I would caution against singling out any ethnic group as the "purest" AEs.
That is true, but Southern Egyptians tend to be endogamous. Even towards Egyptians from the North, like Cario.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Southern Egyptians tend to be endogamous. Even towards Egyptians from the North, like Cario.
what are you basing this statement on?
Personal experience and science. lol
Of course you will be able to find arbitrariness, here and there. But fact is, it is unusual.lol It was shown a few times already, so no need to repeat myself again.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
This is just my opinion. But I think Southern Egyptians and Northern Sudanese like the Nubians are the "truest" Egyptians. I even hear some southern Egyptian groups still have some traits of Ancient Egyptian cultural traditions. I forgot where I heard it from, but it was something of that nature. Obviously southern Egyptians and especially northern Sudanese would receive less admixture from foreign invaders.
Hopefully when I go to visit my sister in Ethiopia, I can go with her to Sudan or Egypt.
Anyways OUTSIDE of Egypt and Sudan, I would say southern indigenous Libyans and northern Chadians are the closest. And outside of that region I would say with a BIG MAYBE, South Sudan.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Anyways OUTSIDE of Egypt and Sudan, I would say southern indigenous Libyans and northern Chadians are the closest. And outside of that region I would say with a BIG MAYBE, South Sudan.
I dunno about South Sudan. I think those people would be closer to the jet-dark people in AE art who often get identified (mistakenly?) as "Nubians". I'm talking about these people of course: That said, if I recall correctly, a guy called Becker found "biologically sub-Saharan" skeletal material in the Wadi Howar (map below). It wouldn't surprise me if some of the so-called "Nubians" in AE portrayals are actually from that area rather than Nubia proper.
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