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Author Topic: DNA studies if black amazigh im Morocco
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
M81 also has no evidence of representating that westward migration ~7kya. It's cline is opposite of what we'd expect in that scenario. In fact, its cline is most similar to U6's cline and therefore much more consistent with Iberomaurusians than Berber speakers.

I personally think E-M78 (V65) tracks their movements in North Africa. I'm not completely ruling out that Berber speakers were also M81, but I think a much stronger case can be made for a much older presence in the Maghreb for that hg.

I am waiting on ancient dna to put the origin of M81 further back in the North West.....but it dont know.
The specimen is there, but is it well contained for genetic analysis?

PBS- Skeletons of the Sahara prt1of 5


 -

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Askia_The_Great
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We can't ignore the historical aspect. During at least the Moorish period scholars(both European and Arab) did note very dark skinned Berber groups like the Masmuda Berbers. From what I understand the BULK of the Eurasian ancestry in Berbers came when European converts were expelled from Europe to North Africa. Also remember Northwest Africa for the most part was sparsely populated. Heck the Sanhaja Berbers even today are quite dark skin.
 -

And they were once the largest Berber Confederacy during the Moorish period.

In opinion I don't think we should contribute EVERY dark skinned Berber group to SSA ancestry especially Saharan Berbers like the Sanhaja... Just my opinion.

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Swenet
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Keep in mind that I'm not denying the existence of modern Berbers with dark skin. My position is these modern Berbers didn't turn out to be what some people here (including me) thought they were before genome-wide studies become popular. Take, for instance, the Zenata Berbers. They have been sampled recently in Central Algeria and this what they look like genetically:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453

They are obviously a hybrid population. They have West African, Maghrebi and other, smaller, contributions. Many people here have considered these so-called 'black Berbers' an ancient and differentiated population associated primarily with E-M81. But their autosomal contributions don't support this because they don't form their own 'Amazigh' cluster (for instance, the Yoruba sample has its own gray cluster in this paper, while the Zenata Berbers belong to several different clusters assigned to neighboring populations).

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xyyman
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still don't get it? Do you? What is "West African" ancestry.

There was NEVER any isolation. Therefore no ADMIXTURE?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Swenet
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Oh no, gramps just debunked me again. Look at all that evidence in his post.

[Roll Eyes]

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Swenet
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Stick to the armchair gobbledygook you know

[Wink]

quote:
Originally posted by Xyyman:
With my limited knowledge of the Amazigh.
(...)
These [are] Amazigh
(...)
He is not
(...)


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Thereal
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Why does isolation have to be a factor for admixture to be a thing?I get that if there isn't a place to go and you have people coming in inhabited territory and you want access to resources then issues may arise,whites in the colonial era weren't really isolated but mixtures still occurred.
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xyyman
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There is a reason why 23andMe use the term "before itercontinental travel". Because they recognize that humans were never ISOLATED. Don't believe me? Check their website. Reason? Help him out Sweetness.

sigh!

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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How many times do we have to go through this. Look at the below mock up @ K2. Notice Khoi-San has waving lines vs maasai and sandawe. why? tic! tic!


All populations have “European/Eurasian” ancestry

 -

Oh! Red mock up is mine!!! For the record

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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Keep in mind that I'm not denying the existence of modern Berbers with dark skin. My position is these modern Berbers didn't turn out to be what some people here (including me) thought they were before genome-wide studies become popular. Take, for instance, the Zenata Berbers. They have been sampled recently in Central Algeria and this what they look like genetically:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453

They are obviously a hybrid population. They have West African, Maghrebi and other, smaller, contributions. Many people here have considered these so-called 'black Berbers' an ancient and differentiated population associated primarily with E-M81. But their autosomal contributions don't support this because they don't form their own 'Amazigh' cluster (for instance, the Yoruba sample has its own gray cluster in this paper, while the Zenata Berbers belong to several different clusters assigned to neighboring populations).

Aye... Now I get what you're saying. Indeed I think I now agree that Modern Berbers today in general are VERY admixed. Whether they be light or dark. There are no "pure" Berbers. But the reason why I posted my post is due to reading scholars mostly mentioning darker skinned Berbers especially during the Moorish period. Of course dark skinned to them could be the same color as say a Beja and not a Yoruba. Anyways I read some lighter skinned Berbers like the kabylia were once darker than they were before. I'll try to find that one.

But overall I get what you're saying. To me it seems like Berbers are among the MOST complicated African groups to study in Africa! [Eek!]

You LITERALLY can not have a fixed opinion. My theories on them changed so much but I still consider them(especiay the proto Berbers) an African polulation.

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Swenet
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Yep. I changed my views a little bit myself. Compared to the last time I spoke on this subject in 2014:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet in 2014:
Biological Structure
--The proto-Berbers, as a biological entity,
originate in East Africa and have gone extinct.
The available genetic literature shows that
modern day Berber speakers are an amalgam of at
least the following people: Ibero-Maurusians,
Chamla's proto-Mediterraneans (i.e. Iberians),
(Chadic) Wet Sahara Sub-Saharan Africans,
Neolithic Near Easterners, and, finally, Pastoral
Proto-Berbers, with the migrations happening in
that respective order (chronologically speaking).
The order of importance of the autosomal
contributions of these people to the modern day
Berber genepool is probably very similar to this
ordering.

Locus of expansion
The earliest evidence of Berber words exists in
Ancient Egyptian texts. These texts are much
older than the coalescent age of any modern
Berber language. This, therefore, completely
destroys any claim that the Berber language
expanded from the Maghreb or that it originates
from Vandal occupation:

quote:

"In addition, Darnell and Manasssa mention the
so-called ‘Hound-Stela’ of the Eleventh Dynasty
ruler Antef II (2118-2069BC) where one of his
basenjis is named Abaikur “meaning ‘hound’ in
Berber, suggesting a southwestern origin for that
particular dog” (p. 81)."

link

On the other hand, modern day extant Berber
languages only coalesce to 2-3kya according to
glottochronological work:


quote:

"Several scholars have suggested that the level
of diversity inside Berber is similar to that
inside the Germanic or the Romance language
groups. If diversification and time depth were to
correlate in the same way in these European
language groups as in Berber, this would imply a
time depth of about 2000–2500 years only (Louali
and Philippson 2004)."

--Dugoujon et al. 2009

This indicates that the earliest Berber languages
to split off from the main stem were spoken in
regions adjacent to the Nile Valley, and that
modern day Berber languages split off later.


Kefi's Taforalt and Afalou samples

 -

Not very much to say here. Slightly less than half
of the samples are identical to CRS. This condition
is diagnostic of mtDNA H lineages, but occasionally,
mtDNA U(xU6) samples are reported which are
identical to CRS in HVS-I. The rest of the
samples only differ from CRS in a couple of
places. This is highly inconsistent with mtDNA L
lineages (which are typically more divergent
from CRS in HVS-I) and this shows in the assigned
haplogroups. When these sampled Taforalt people
were alive 12kya, they themselves were immigrants
from Europe, or they were 2nd, 3rd etc. generation
immigrants in the Maghreb. Fu et al corrected
mtDNA mutation rates shows older estimates for
mtDNA V
, which are well in line with the cal age of
the sampled Taforalt remains. While not specifically
tested in Fu et al 2013, it's very likely that
this new corrected mutation rate would stretch the
U5b1b, V, H1 and H3 lineages in modern Berbers
back a bit beyond the ~10kya ages which are
typically assigned to these lineages.

In 2013 Kefi obtained similar results with Afalou
aDNA. Just like the Taforalt HVI-I sequences, they
shifted towards Eurasians:

quote:

"Phylogenetic analysis based on mitochondrial
sequences from Mediterranean populations was
performed using Neighbor-Joining algorithm
implemented in MEGA program. mtDNA sequences from
Afalou and Taforalt were classified in Eurasiatic
and North African haplogroups. We noted the absence
of Sub-Saharan haplotypes. Phylogenetic tree
clustered Taforalt with European populations."

--Kefi et al 2013 [/QB]
I now think E-V257 (which contains M81) has an old (around the time of the LGM) presence in this region. I adopted this view based on certain clues in Trombetta et al 2015 and how this fits with other data.

Another slight alteration is that I now make a distinction between the widely studied Taforalt and Afalou samples vs their ancestors in the region. I still think these specific Taforalt and Afalou samples have a lot of Eurasian ancestry. But I also think their ancestors had that to a lesser degree, being more associated with E-V257, L3k, etc (as opposed to mtDNA H1, H3, V, U5, etc).

E-V257 has all the right features of being old in the Maghreb, as opposed to having just an early/mid holocene presence:

quote:
E-V257* individuals in their samples who were E-V257, but not E-M81. A Borana from Kenya, a Marrakesh Berber, a Corsican, a Sardinian, a southern Spaniard and a Cantabrian. As mentioned above, Trombetta et al. 2011 propose that the absence of E-V257* in the Middle East makes a maritime movement from northern Africa to southern Europe the most plausible hypothesis so far to explain its distribution.
^But it needs to be confirmed with aDNA from the Maghreb.
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xyyman
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Confusing? (insert sarcasm). Neolithic Ancestry but Huntergatherer haplogroup. Tic! Toc! Tic ! Toc!

----
(Dec2016)Population history of the Sardinian people inferred from whole-genome sequencing
Charleston W K Chiang1,2


Quote:
"Such a model, however, does not immediately explain the high prevalence of the I2a1a1
haplogroup in Sardinia given the predominantly Neolithic farmer ancestry of the population."

"The high frequency of particular Y-chromosome haplogroups (particularly I2a1a2 and
R1b1a2) that are not commonly affiliated with Neolithic ancestry is one challenge to a model in
which Sardinian principally has Neolithic ancestry."

---

Berbers are Africans!

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
(Chadic) Wet Sahara Sub-Saharan Africans

^Also, 'Chadic' can be interpreted wrongly. I meant 'deriving from the region of what is Chad today' (see Podgorná et al 2014), not Chadic speakers.
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xyyman
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So...were the Neolithic Farmers carriers of R1b-M269? That is not what they are saying. Lol! How is this relevant to this thread? Tic! Toc!

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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keep in mind according to xyymanian theory the forefathers of modern Europeans are berbers, they just got a higher dose of plasticity
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
"Such a model, however, does not immediately explain the high prevalence of the I2a1a1
haplogroup in Sardinia given the predominantly Neolithic farmer ancestry of the population."

Thanks. Will read it later.
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Ish Geber
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Of course Berbers don't have be of one singular origin, to be considered "homogeneous". Throughout history a lot of ethnic groups crossed each other forming / reforming these "modern" ethnic Berber groups. There are no Berber groups solely this or that.

quote:


Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).

[...]

Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.


quote:
Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb


 -

Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


 -


Table 3. Nine human populations sampled for craniometric analysis ranging in age from the Late Pleistocene (ca. 80,000 BP, Aterian) to the mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) and in geographic distribution across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara [18], [19], [26], [27], [54].
doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.t003


 -


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Ish Geber
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quote:
The Kingdom of Morocco
Sanhaja, Masmoda, and Zenata are the three tribes constituting the Berbers .

The Sanhaja, from which sprang the Almoravide dynasty (the founders of Marrakesh) were nomads who in the 11C conquered the desert and much of the region to the south of it for Islam; the Masmouda were quiet farming people who lived in the north and west and in the High and Anti Atlas mountains and it was they who gave rise (from out Tin Mal , S of Marrakesh to the Almohade Dynasty which displaced the Almoravides; the Zenata a sub-group of which the - Beni Marin- swept in from the empty region between the Tafilalet and Algeria to become the great Merinide dynasty, were tough, horse-riding nomads of the cold high plateaux of the interior. Joined to the Arabs only by Islam, the Berhers have always held themselves proudly separate in all other matters, especially in the rural and mountain areas. There is no standard form of Berber language since each tribal group has always used its own version, and there is no recognized Berber script or literature. Their strongest form of self-expression is music and dancing, which is rhythmic but with little harmony, compelling, loud and often quite intoxicating.



http://www.embassyofmorocco.us/kingdom.htm


quote:
"In particular, the Tuareg have 50% to 80% of their paternal lineages E1b1b1b-M81 [34], [35]. The Tuareg are seminomadic pastoralist groups that are mostly spread between Libya, Algeria, Mali, and Niger. They speak a Berber language and are believed to be the descendents of the Garamantes people of Fezzan, Libya (500 BC - 700 CE) [34]."
--Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. (2013)

Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa


quote:
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan.

[...]

Carrying out biological or genetic investigations of the Tuareg has not always been easy because of their demanding lifestyle and their often negative attitude to the European colonists. Cavalli-Sforza et al,2 whose synthesized study of classical protein and serological markers is well known, noticed a genetic link between the Tuareg and Beja from Eastern Sudan. The fact that the genetic distances between the Tuareg and Berber/North-western Africans were larger than that between the Tuareg and Beja, provides a picture of a common origin and population separation at some point more than 5000 years ago. Interestingly, both people are also pastoralist and speak Afro-Asiatic languages, even if the Beja language (Bedawi), with its four dialects, belongs to the Cushitic branch, whereas Tamasheq belongs to the Berber branch. The fact that these two peoples today speak different languages might be explained either by the Tuareg having acquired the Berber language during their westwards migration, or possibly by the Beja coming under the influence of some Eastern African peoples as language shift is a relatively common phenomenon.

--Luísa Pereira,1,2 Viktor Černý,

Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Aug; 18(8): 915–923.
Published online 2010 Mar 17. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.21
PMCID: PMC2987384

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
keep in mind according to xyymanian theory the forefathers of modern Europeans are berbers, they just got a higher dose of plasticity

I am not sure it is just him
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the lioness,
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well clearly the modern European is basically a North African H carrier mixed with central West African R originator, and as xyyman says not Central Asian.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The problem in north Africa since the saharan wet phase is that it has been sparsely populated. This makes it very easy for "outside" groups to have a bigger impact on local populations than if the area was originally more densely populated. Not only that, but you are talking about pockets of HIGHLY MOBILE populations spread over a very large area (the Sahara is larger than the continental United States). Therefore it it very difficult to say precisely what the dominant genetic signature was of any Africans migrating westward from the East bringing Berber languages with them. Distinguishing what genes they originally had starting in the East and then what genes they picked up as they moved west and interacted with other population remnants such as those of the central Sahara responsible for the black mummies there, followed by what other immigrants introduced during the Roman and Islamic era is difficult.

Well it is difficult if you rely on the biased sampling as found in modern day scholarship. The only way to get a better picture of this is to sample more of the scattered populations across the Sahara not simply those on the extreme coasts and certain populations Far away in "sub Saharan" Africa. All the various small population centers from Southern Tunisia into the Ahoggar mountains and regions into Northern Mali, Chad, Niger, Mauritania, Sudan and so forth would have to be Sampled. But that kind of sample data set has yet to be captured.

I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies?
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Swenet
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Bump. Curious to see Doug's analysis of the data we have so far in 2016.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies? [/QB]

there are no DNA studies specific to black berbers, you will find nothing, don't waste your time

According to Leo Africanus >


____________________________________________


quote:

The tawnie Moores are divided into five severall
People or Tribes : to wit, the Tribes called Zanhagi,
Musmudi, Zeneti, Hacari and Gumeri.


(13) What Pory translates "tawnie Moores", with deliberate
disregard of Leo's text, and Florianus " Subfusci", is, in the original,
"Affricani bianchi" (white Africans), and " I Bianchi dell* Affrica" (the
whites of Africa), that is, the Berbers, to distinguish them from the
Negroes. The word " Moor", as used by Pory and by all the writers
of his time, and, indeed, subsequently, in a very loose way, is almost
equivalent to Mohammedan. Leo never calls the Arabs "Africans",
they being immigrants from Arabia into Africa, though no doubt well
known as individual settlers and traders long before they invaded
Barbary in A.H. 27 (a.d. 647).


 -
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies?

this is the best you will get

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00493.x/asset/j.1469-

The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
C. Coudray1∗ , A. Olivieri2, A. Achilli2,3, M. Pala2, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, F. El-Chennawi6, M. Kossmann7, A. Torroni2 and J. M. Dugoujon1
2008

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the lioness,
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http://www.embassyofmorocco.us/kingdom.htm

EMBASSY OF THE KINGDOM OF MOROCCO

BERBERS


History

Since the beginning of history there have been Berbers in North Africa end they were already well established when the Phoenicians made their first incursions in 1200 BC. Their origins are uncertain but thought to be Euro-Asiatic, The generic name Berbers, was imposed on them by the Arabs meaning those who were not Arabs.

Sanhaja, Masmoda, and Zenata are the three tribes constituting the Berbers .


The Sanhaja, from which sprang the Almoravide dynasty (the founders of Marrakesh) were nomads who in the 11C conquered the desert and much of the region to the south of it for Islam; the Masmouda were quiet farming people who lived in the north and west and in the High and Anti Atlas mountains and it was they who gave rise (from out Tin Mal , S of Marrakesh to the Almohade Dynasty which displaced the Almoravides; the Zenata a sub-group of which the - Beni Marin- swept in from the empty region between the Tafilalet and Algeria to become the great Merinide dynasty, were tough, horse-riding nomads of the cold high plateaux of the interior. Joined to the Arabs only by Islam, the Berhers have always held themselves proudly separate in all other matters, especially in the rural and mountain areas. There is no standard form of Berber language since each tribal group has always used its own version, and there is no recognized Berber script or literature. Their strongest form of self-expression is music and dancing, which is rhythmic but with little harmony, compelling, loud and often quite intoxicating.

The Phoenicians and Carthaginians:

The first invaders are believed to have been the Phoenicians, coming from the land known then as Caanan in the Eastern Mediterranean inthe 12C BC. Gradually they established trading posts along the north coast of Africa and traces at their occupation have been found at Lixus (Liks), which was probably the earliest, Tangier (Tangis)Mellilia (Russadir) Chellah part of Rahat and Tamuda (near Tetouan). These traces are usually in the form of fish-salting factories and are often heavily overlaid by Roman remains. The Phoenicians were essentially a maritime people, not interested in conquering or colonizing, and paying scant attention to he primitive berber tribes and poor agricultural land of the interior; therefore, their colonies were little more than enclaves along the coast, separated by great open spaces of wasteland which they did not need. Their main center of influence was Carthage (Tunisia). When Carthagebecame an independent state, the more civilized Carthaginians arrived and turned the north coast settlements into prosperous towns:they are known to have developed the fish salting and preserving into quite a major industry and their anchovy paste, called "garum" was widely exported. They also grew wheat and probably introduced the grape. The Carthaginians exercised a considerable cultural influence on the Berbers even long after the Sack of Carthage in 146 BC; indeed, it probably increased at that time as hundreds of Carthagians fled westwards and took refuge from the Romans in the friendly enclaves along the coast .

The Romans:

After they had taken Carthage, the Romans moved westwards into the Berber kingdoms of Mauritania and Numidia(Algeria now) which became part of the Roman Empire. In 13 BC the Emperor Octavius granted the kingdom of Mauritania to the young Berber prince, Juba, son of Juba I of Numidia who had committed suicide 13 years earlier after the defeat by the Romans at the battle of Thapsus. In 25 8(2 they added the whole of Numidia to his realm. Educated in Rome and married to the daughter of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, known as Cleopatra -Stlene, hts pedigree was unpeccabte dnd he ruled wisely, probably living in Volubilis. This had already become a h3erher town of sonic statiding betore the Rornans arrived, due in part to the natural fertility of the region surrounding it and in part to the te~ching of the Carthaginians enabling the Berbers to get the best out ol the land. The next 400 years formed Morocco ‘s Dark Age and very little is known about this period. The Vandals and Goths who were sweeping through Spain may have touched the northern tip of Morocco on their way eastwards to Carthage but there are no traces that they have stayed. The Berbers in the mountains and the desert continued life much as before. The Romnanised, part-Christian, Berber Mauritanians of the cities of Volubilis, Sala Colonia,(Chella) Tingis and others held on to their mixed cultural heritage and maintained a degree of civilization, as evidenced by one or two Latin inscriptions, found in several places, which date from as late as the mid 7C. But the weak and divided nature of the country was to prove no match at all for the next wave of invaders.

ISLAM

The Idrissides
By the 7C AD the Arabs were in full expansion. They were inspired primarily by their fierce desire to spread their own religion of Islam throughout the World. but they were doubtless particularly attracted to North Africa by the endless stretches of desert sand which were to them like home. It was in 670 that the first Arab invasions of the North African coastal plain took place under Oqba Ben Nafi, commander of the Umayed dynasty in Damascus. He is best known for having founded the city of Kairwan (S of Tunis) and for having built thefirst ever mosque in North Africa, He swept with his army into what is now Morocco in the year 683. Which he called this Maghreb al Aqsa or farthest West When a second Ummayed leader, Musa lbn Nouasser, arrived in 703,the Berbers were not unwilling to participate in the Islamic expansion into southern Spain and into the more southerly areas of Morocco, However, the progress of Islam remained patchy and small enclaves of Christians still existed in the interior though many fled to Spain). This lack of national unity persisted until the arrival of ldriss Ben Abdallah, a descendant of the prophet Mohammed, in 788. There are very few original Arab sources available for reference about this early period but that which is most frequently cited by historians is the Raoud El Kartas, a chronicle by the 13C writer from Fez, Ibn Abi-Zar-El-fasi: from this we learn that ldriss Ben Abdallah fled into Egypt from the Abbasides .He arrived by way of Kairwan, first in Tangier and then in the former Roman city of Volubilis where was received by Berbers already fully converted to Islam by the earlier Arab arrivals. The Berbers chief proclaimed Idriss King and pledged the support of his own and neighboring tribes. It seems that the arrival of an assured leader who would guide the country out of the spiritual uncertainties which had increased since the death of Oqba ben Nafi was welcome. Idriss II was born after his father’s death and was educated and prepared for his awesome task. He became King at the age of 12, in 804. He founded Fez which in his time was well prospered. In 818, 8000 Arab families arrived after being expelled by Christians from the Emirate of Cordoba in Spain. Seven years 2000 families came from Kairwan. These ‘refugies’ were welcomed and installed, respectively, on the right and left banks of the river which divides the town. It was very largely as a result of the of these people, with their refinements and skills, that Fez became a great spiritual and intellectual center whose influence very much reached to the far north of the country and, later, beyond. Idriss IIwho died in 828In Morocco came the next dynasty, from the south The Almoravides. They were camel-riding Berber of the Sanhaja group of tribes, to whom cultivation of the soil was unknown. For a century or more they Have been conquering and converting to Islam the black countries of the Sahara, inspired by their search for the source of gold which had been flowing into Morocco from somewhere in the region of the Niger river. The campaigns fought by the Almoravides were violent and successful and they soon controlled the whole of the south, under the leadership of Ibn Tachafine ( the founder of Marrakech in 1062, along with Al Koutoubia Mosque). Much of Spain became part of the Almoravide empire. A period of peace and prosperity followed, enriched by the refined culture of the Andalucian courts to which had been added a healthy dose of Berber virility and discipline.

The Almohades

A new power was emerging. The Almohades were Masmoda berbers from the high and the Atlas mountains .their leader, Mohamed Ibn Toumart, was a man of extarordinary power. The foundation of his doctorine was absolute unity with God, from which stemmed the name of Mouwahhidine, meaning unitarian. Yacoub Al Mansour was a great statesman. The whole country prospered at his reign: spiritually, intellectually, economically and architecturally. Marrakesh was still the capital. Fez flowered as never before, and the end of the 12C is generally regarded as an apogée in Morocco’s history.

The Merinides:
The Beni Marin were a tribe of Nomadic Zenata Berbers who came from an area between Taza and Algeria. The policy of the Merinides in running the affairs of Morocco was enlightened they the first Moroccans to introduce a simple form of civil service. They were also the first to introduce the Mellah, or Jewish quarters in all major tows, so that the Jewish could live secure and unmolested. The Merinides were also the first to introduce the concept of Medersa(originated from Baghdad and later on introduced to Egypt). Fez is liberally scattered with fine examples within easy walking distance of the Karawiyine. Sultan Abu Inan built the Bou Inania Medersa in Fez. The Merinide Soltans surrounded themselves with scholars who could lecture not only about Koran but also about science and law , poetry and geography. The well-known traveller Ibn Batuta( 1304-78) was an honored member of the court of Abou Inan who gave him a secretary to write down stories of his travels as in the black Sea and Tambouktoo. Ibn Khaldoun, the 14 C historian and a Spanish Muslim spent many years as adviser and close associate of Merinide Sultans. When the dynasty was feebled, Spain and Portugal were turning eyes towards Morocco .At that time, there was another ruler, Ibn Wattas, who came from Asilah to Fez. When he left Asilah, the Portugueuse invaded Asilah and took many family membersof Ibn Wattas and 5000 people as slaves, then Ibn Wattas signed a treaty with Portugal which allowed the portugueuse to invade Asilah, Tangier , Essaouira(Mogador)Mazagan (El Jadida) Zemmour, Safi and Agadir and Ceuta. So, for a time, almost the entire west coast of Morocco became a seperate Portugueuse colony.

The Saadians

Were decsendants from the prophet Mohamed. They originally came from Arabiain the 12C, and settled in the valley of the Draa in the South of Morocco. They moved to Fez and were easily given power by the Wattasides. In the 16 C, they rebuilt the town of Taroudant as their capital. During the Saadians’reign, the portugueuse had always dreamt of regaining power in the Moroccan territories. King Sebastian who was asked helped from one of the sultans nephews, landed in Asilah with a massive force of soldiers, there followed a memorable battle in 1578 at Ksar Kbir. The battle was known as the battle of the Three Kings, in which the portugueuse army was defeated, and in which King Sebastian, the Pretender and the Sultan Abd El Malik died. Glorious in their victory, the Saadians under the reign of Ahmed Saadi(1578-1603) settled down in Fez. The Badi Palace and the Ethereal Mausoleum ( les tombeux Saadians) in Marrakesh are proofs of the wealth of Saadians.

The Alaouites
They were also decsended from the prophet Mohamed. They had arrived from Arabia some three ceunturies earlier to settle near Rissani in the Tafilalet region in the south.( They are referred to as Filali). Unlike preceding dynasties they did not move and seize power but were formally invited by the people of Fez to come to the capital and take over the throne of Morocco. The first Alaouite ruler ,Moulay Rachid, reigned in 1666. He restored order with a firm hand, revived the life of all mosques and drove out all the pretenders. Under the reign of Moulay Ismael( 1672-1727) Morocco was made again a great country.He exchanged ambassadorts with many leading Powers. Meknes was chosen by Moulay Ismael as the imperial city which he made his capital. Today, the miles of ruined walls, palaces and stables bear witness to his energy and ambition and also to the scale of his success. In 1757, another wise and strong Alaouite ruler came to the throne. He was Mohamed ben Abdellah. Hebuilt the city of Essaouira and invited the English, the French, and the jewish people to settle and to trade there. Moulay el hassan acceded to the throne in 1873. He had the task of pacifying the tribes and was the first monarch to enter the wild Souss Area, where the tribes never acknowledged the authority of the state. During his reign, the European governments suggested ways of reforming administration , such as fixed salaries, civil servants and a more structured method tax collection. Attacks on foreigners were frequent and the tribes took power into their own hands. At that time, the French occupied Morocco, The Spaniards, for historical reasons, insisted on sharing the influence on Morocco. In 1906, the Conference of Algeciras( in which 30 nations were present) took place and had the effect of internationalizing the whole affair. Tangier was an international free port, and the whole country was under the protectorate of the French government. In 1912, Sultan Moulay Hafid signed the Treaty of FEZ . He was relieved from the power to govern. The country was under the controle of a French Resident- General called Lyauty.He aimed to pacify and to construct. He also built the ports of Casablanca and Kenitra, the new towns of Rabat, Fez, Meknes and Marrakech, while the old medina of theses cities remained untouched. A modern educational system was introduced, the administration was modernised and the legal system reformed. Still the tribes in the south of Morocco were very rebellious. By 1920, there was a more structured rebellionand resistance in the Rif Mountains, led by Abdelkarim Khattabi. The French began by driving a wedge between Berbers and Arabs. The Sultan, at that time, signed a beber decree in 1930, which on the contrary of what the French calculated, brought the two parties even closer. Then , a serious movement of national independance was born especially formed by young intellectuals from Rabat and Fez. In 1927, Moulay Youssef was succeded by his son Mohamed V, aged 17 years old. It was not until after World War II that the independence movement really gathered momentum. The troops Moroccans provided for the French army had conducted themselves with honor. At that time, an official independence party was formed called Istiqlal,whose first act was to send a memorundum to the sultan and the French authorities asking for independence and a democratic constitution. The immediate reaction to this request was the arrest of several Istiqlal leaders , whereas the sultan refused to sign any more decrees concerning his people. In August 1953 the royal family was deported to Corsica and Madagascar, and another person was designed by the French to sit on the throne. Violence towards the French officials was the reaction of the Moroccan people, who claimed the return of the king. In December 1956, The king was taken to France , where he signed a declaration promising that there would be a constitutional monarchy which would move towards ademocratic state. In March 1956, the French signed an agreement in which they granted full independence to Morocco. The Spanish did the same and Tangier lost its international status during the same year. The Sultan formed a government and French Officials were gradually replaced by Moroccans. After the death of King Mohamed V on 26 February 1961, Moulay Hassan formally acceded to the throne on 3 March 1961. At the beginning of his reign, the new king sought to consolidate independence and unify the country, removing all foreign military presence in 1962. The year 1965 saw the implementation of agrarian reform and in 1969 the province of Ifni was returned to the mother country. The Green March, which took place in November 1975 with a view to re-integrating Kingdom’s Saharan Provinces, rallied the entire Moroccan people behind the King leading to the end of the occupation of the southern regions. Following the death of His Majesty King Hassan II on July 23, 1999, a new Sovereign, born after Independence, was entrusted with the destiny of the Kingdom. His Majesty King Mohammed VI acceded to the throne on 30 July 1999.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies?

this is the best you will get

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00493.x/asset/j.1469-

The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
C. Coudray1∗ , A. Olivieri2, A. Achilli2,3, M. Pala2, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, F. El-Chennawi6, M. Kossmann7, A. Torroni2 and J. M. Dugoujon1
2008

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb178/beyoku/SiwaY-dna.pn


https://i.imgbox.com/xk3mqSPA.jpg

Yawn,


"This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around."

--Laura R. Botiguéa,1, Brenna M. Henn et al

Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe (July 16, 2013)

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Swenet
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Doug?
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Doug?

I think they are starting to admit that the sample sizes count and that they should stop playing with the data sets to skew the results: ie: more samples on the coast, a few samples in the Sahara and then "sub saharan" samples a thousand miles away.
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Swenet
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Yes, recent data have shown that with the rare Y DNA A lineages shared between West/Central Africans and northwest Africans. But with my question I was referring to your answer to TypeZeis's question and just your general take on Berber make up.
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The problem in north Africa since the saharan wet phase is that it has been sparsely populated. This makes it very easy for "outside" groups to have a bigger impact on local populations than if the area was originally more densely populated. Not only that, but you are talking about pockets of HIGHLY MOBILE populations spread over a very large area (the Sahara is larger than the continental United States). Therefore it it very difficult to say precisely what the dominant genetic signature was of any Africans migrating westward from the East bringing Berber languages with them. Distinguishing what genes they originally had starting in the East and then what genes they picked up as they moved west and interacted with other population remnants such as those of the central Sahara responsible for the black mummies there, followed by what other immigrants introduced during the Roman and Islamic era is difficult.

Well it is difficult if you rely on the biased sampling as found in modern day scholarship. The only way to get a better picture of this is to sample more of the scattered populations across the Sahara not simply those on the extreme coasts and certain populations Far away in "sub Saharan" Africa. All the various small population centers from Southern Tunisia into the Ahoggar mountains and regions into Northern Mali, Chad, Niger, Mauritania, Sudan and so forth would have to be Sampled. But that kind of sample data set has yet to be captured.

I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies?
There has never been a question of the relationship between black Moroccans and populations to the South. The issue that has often come up however has been whether they represent "original" Moroccan Berber populations or the result of slave trading. Not to mention the discussion of historic Berber groups like the Almoravids always includes Africans from the south. So we know the relationship is there but there are no DNA studies specific to black Moroccan Berbers that I know of.

My response pointed out my opinion on the issue of unraveling the 'black' ancestry of the original Berbers in general using DNA. This includes the genetic impact of various populations involved as the original Berber speaking populations moved East and determining which populations were involved and their ancestries ("Eurasian", "Saharan", "West African", "Sahelian","East African"). My personal opinion is that in the Sahel belt there have always been populations moving East and West across Africa, as the Peuhl, Fulani and other groups still do to this day. So we know that Africans have been highly mobile since the beginning and require no "Eurasian" immigrants to provide the impetus for such movements. Meaning even if you isolate and separate any "Eurasian" mixture, there is going to be an issue identifying the various lineages and what populations contributed over time among highly mobile populations moving both east to west and north to south in and just below the Sahara among pockets of populations left since the last wet phase.

Of course there will always be the Eurpeans who misinterperet, twist and distort the data, such as claiming populations similar to this Peuhl woman are "Caucasoid":

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http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-photo-made-available-30-july-2005-of-amina-dogue-from-the-peuhl-96049842.html

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Anyone know of any DNA studies that have been done on black amazigh in Morocco? Im curious as to what other African populations they show similarities to

Deja-vu. Do you know how many threads we have in this forum dedicated to DNA studies on Amazigh/Berber?? A lot! You can check out the archives. In the meanwhile I am unaware of studies being limited to Berber groups based on skin color. Like all studies, the groups are sampled are based on ethnicity and locality or region. I get weary when people try to interject skin color. Of course it becomes clear to anyone familiar with North Africans in general or even just Amazigh speakers specifically that there exists phenotypic diversity even within one group i.e. admixture.

Sahrawi

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Unlike Lioness, I will not just cherry pick the whitish looking ones only or just the black ones. Any cursury google image search will show that by and large the Sahrawi like many Berber groups show an overall 'mixed' or so-called "mulatto" look.

If one wants to know how the original Amazigh speakers look like, then perhaps the best evidence would be skeletal remains of those alleged speakers or their DNA.

My guess is that the aboriginal North Africans (Oranian/Afalou) and perhaps even some of proto-Amazigh speakers who are their partial descendants were relatively light skinned compared to sub-Saharans with complexions akin to Khoisan but they certainly aren't the whitish type idealized by Lioness, her mistress Mathilda, and other Euronuts.

I think the E-M81 carriers who spoke pre-proto-Berber were darker in complexion and likely akin to the Beja. In fact I'm reminded of an old Sforza study showing strong autsomal affinities between Tuareg and Beja.

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Ish Geber
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"I think the E-M81 carriers who spoke pre-proto-Berber were darker in complexion and likely akin to the Beja. In fact I'm reminded of an old Sforza study showing strong autsomal affinities between Tuareg and Beja."


Yes, that is true.

Btw,


quote:
As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.
--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence

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Ish Geber
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quote:
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan.
--Luísa Pereira,1

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Aug; 18(8): 915–923.
Published online 2010 Mar 17. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.21

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Djehuti
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We must always keep in mind...

The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north....--Joseph O. Vogel (1997)

And from the Atlas Mountains of Morocco..

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Thus any talk of Eurasians being founders of Berber populations or cultures instead of influencers of it is a joke.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
We can't ignore the historical aspect. During at least the Moorish period scholars(both European and Arab) did note very dark skinned Berber groups like the Masmuda Berbers. From what I understand the BULK of the Eurasian ancestry in Berbers came when European converts were expelled from Europe to North Africa. Also remember Northwest Africa for the most part was sparsely populated. Heck the Sanhaja Berbers even today are quite dark skin.
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And they were once the largest Berber Confederacy during the Moorish period.

In opinion I don't think we should contribute EVERY dark skinned Berber group to SSA ancestry especially Saharan Berbers like the Sanhaja... Just my opinion.

There were also MILLIONS of white european slaves that were introdcued into North Africa. People seem to ignore this fact. Berbers are obviously not one group ethnically. Some are jet black, some are brown, some tan and some white. Ibn Hawqal said in his time the bulk of them were blacks, with white sub groups living in the north. We can't ignore human migrations. I lean toward the opinion they were originally all black. Hence I am very interested to know about their (Black Amazigh) DNA, and how it clusters with other African groups.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The problem in north Africa since the saharan wet phase is that it has been sparsely populated. This makes it very easy for "outside" groups to have a bigger impact on local populations than if the area was originally more densely populated. Not only that, but you are talking about pockets of HIGHLY MOBILE populations spread over a very large area (the Sahara is larger than the continental United States). Therefore it it very difficult to say precisely what the dominant genetic signature was of any Africans migrating westward from the East bringing Berber languages with them. Distinguishing what genes they originally had starting in the East and then what genes they picked up as they moved west and interacted with other population remnants such as those of the central Sahara responsible for the black mummies there, followed by what other immigrants introduced during the Roman and Islamic era is difficult.

Well it is difficult if you rely on the biased sampling as found in modern day scholarship. The only way to get a better picture of this is to sample more of the scattered populations across the Sahara not simply those on the extreme coasts and certain populations Far away in "sub Saharan" Africa. All the various small population centers from Southern Tunisia into the Ahoggar mountains and regions into Northern Mali, Chad, Niger, Mauritania, Sudan and so forth would have to be Sampled. But that kind of sample data set has yet to be captured.

I specifically want to know about black amazigh populations in Morocco and what there DNA tells us. If we listen to the stories of the Z'nega which a lot of these people come from, then they would have come from Northern Senegal and Southern Mauritania originally. My question is, what does the DNA of these black Amazigh populations tell us? are there even such studies?
There has never been a question of the relationship between black Moroccans and populations to the South. The issue that has often come up however has been whether they represent "original" Moroccan Berber populations or the result of slave trading. Not to mention the discussion of historic Berber groups like the Almoravids always includes Africans from the south. So we know the relationship is there but there are no DNA studies specific to black Moroccan Berbers that I know of.

My response pointed out my opinion on the issue of unraveling the 'black' ancestry of the original Berbers in general using DNA. This includes the genetic impact of various populations involved as the original Berber speaking populations moved East and determining which populations were involved and their ancestries ("Eurasian", "Saharan", "West African", "Sahelian","East African"). My personal opinion is that in the Sahel belt there have always been populations moving East and West across Africa, as the Peuhl, Fulani and other groups still do to this day. So we know that Africans have been highly mobile since the beginning and require no "Eurasian" immigrants to provide the impetus for such movements. Meaning even if you isolate and separate any "Eurasian" mixture, there is going to be an issue identifying the various lineages and what populations contributed over time among highly mobile populations moving both east to west and north to south in and just below the Sahara among pockets of populations left since the last wet phase.

Of course there will always be the Eurpeans who misinterperet, twist and distort the data, such as claiming populations similar to this Peuhl woman are "Caucasoid":

 -
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-photo-made-available-30-july-2005-of-amina-dogue-from-the-peuhl-96049842.html

Thank you for the response, I agree. All of West Africa, for the most part have migrated from the North or East. With the original groups, as far as I know, being Pygmy. Who were absorbed into those other groups. It is all very interesting to me. As for the idea that someone could argue some black berber groups may be the results of slavery. I say, ask the people themselves. They would know their history better than anyone. It seems when that historical memory doesn't fit in with Eurocentric bias, it is ignored. I remember reading a professor's post on his blog, where he claimed all of the noblemen among the Tamasheq where light skinned. To which a number of Tamasheq posted that he was a liar. One man even said his dad was jet black, and from a noble clan. History is truly fascinating .
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Hence I am very interested to know about their (Black Amazigh) DNA, and how it clusters with other African groups.

Why are you still asking this. I and Ish Gebor have posted the DNA.
The distinctively berber Y DNA is E-M81 aka E3 aka E1b1b1b that is believed to have derived from E-M35, East Africa
The LIbyan Tuareg have the highest frequencies of mtDNA H in the world, 65% but at low diversity.
Haplogroup H is the most common mtDNA in Europe and is considered Near Eastern origin, possibly Anatolia but it was found in 12,000year old remains in Taforalt Morocco. However the Iberomaurusian population it was found in have very cold adapted limbs that are in the range of arctic people.


In antiquity, the Tuareg moved southward from the Tafilalt,the largest oasis in Morocco, into the Sahel under the Tuareg founding queen Tin Hinan, who is believed to have lived between the 4th and 5th century.The matriarch's 1,500 year old monumental tomb is located in the Sahara at Abalessa in the Hoggar Mountains of southern Algeria. Vestiges of an inscription in Tifinagh, the Tuareg's traditional Libyco-Berber writing script, have been found on one of the ancient sepulchre's walls


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people#cite_note-Pereira2010-108

According to mtDNA analysis by Ottoni et al. (2010), the Tuareg inhabiting the Fezzan region in Libya predominantly carry the H1 haplogroup (61%). This is the highest global frequency found so far of the maternal clade. The haplogroup peaks among Berber populations, and is thought to have arrived from the Iberian Peninsula during the Holocene. The remaining Libyan Tuareg mainly belong to two other West Eurasian mtDNA lineages, M1 and V.[107] M1 is today most common among other Afro-Asiatic speakers inhabiting East Africa, and is believed to have arrived on the continent along with the U6 haplogroup around 40,000 years ago.[108]

Pereira et al. (2010) observed greater matrilineal heterogeneity among the Tuareg inhabiting more southerly areas in the Sahel. The Tuareg in the Gossi environs in Mali largely bear the H1 haplogroup (52%), with the M1 lineage (19%) and various Sub-Saharan L2 subclades (19%) next most common. Similarly, most of the Tuareg inhabiting Gorom-Gorom in Burkina Faso carry the H1 haplogroup (24%), followed by various L2 subclades (24%), the V lineage (21%), and haplogroup M1 (18%). The Tuareg in the vicinity of Tanout in Maradi Region and westward to villages of Loube and Djibale in Tahoua Region in Niger are different from the other Tuareg populations in that a majority carry Sub-Saharan mtDNA lineages. In fact, the name for these mixed blood Tuareg-Haussa people is "Djibalawaa" named after the village of Djibale in Bouza Department, Tahoua Region of Niger. This points to significant assimilation of local West African females into this community. The most common maternal haplogroups found among the Tanout Tuareg are various L2 subclades (39%), followed by L3 (26%), various L1 sublineages (13%), V (10%), H1 (3%), M1 (3%), U3a (3%), and L0a1a (3%)


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n8/full/ejhg201021a.html

Luísa Pereira; Viktor Černý; María Cerezo; Nuno M Silva; Martin Hájek; Alžběta Vašíková; Martina Kujanová; Radim Brdička; Antonio Salas (17 March 2010).
"Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel"


________________________________


 -


we have gone over all the berber DNA studies there are in this forum

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Swenet
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Lol @ lioness. She keeps trying. Learn to read between the lines.
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Lol @ lioness. She keeps trying. Learn to read between the lines.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Let us know as clearly explained as possible

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This is interesting.


Niger Tuareg are various L2 subclades (39%), followed by L3 (26%),
more SSA ancestry than other Tuareg


 -

^ However at the same time these Niger Tuareg like the Siwa of Egypt have a higher frequency of R1b than other berbers who are primarily E-M81

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n8/full/ejhg201021a.html

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

Luísa Pereira1,2,


quote:


Subjects

The biological samples (buccal swabs) were obtained from three different groups of self-identified Tuareg (90 unrelated individuals in total).

One population sample (n=38) was secured in Burkina Faso around the village Gorom-Gorom (further referred to as TGor).

The second sample (n=31) was taken in the Republic of Niger in the vicinity of Tanut (TTan).

The third sample (n=21) was collected in Mali near Gossi (TGos).


Y chromosome pool in Tuareg

From the 20 branches of the Y chromosome tree, which could be discriminated by the analyses performed, only 7 were observed in our Tuareg population sample (Supplementary Material SM7). Again, from this perspective of Y chromosome diversity, TTan is closer to sub-Saharan populations than the other two Tuareg populations, presenting 5.6% of the old AB lineages and 44.4% of E1b1a, whereas TGor and TGos have, respectively, 16.7 and 9.1% of E1b1a. Curiously, TTan also presents the highest frequency (33.3%) of West Eurasian R1b lineages whereas TGor presents only 5.6% of lineage K* (xO,P), and TGos presents none. There were no instances of the Eurasian J haplogroup in the Tuareg, which is otherwise frequent in North Africa (an average of 20%; see Arredi et al45), and attains the highest frequency in the Middle East (around 50%; see Semino et al)46.
The dominant haplogroup in TGor (77.8%) and TGos (81.8%) is E1b1b1b, which has a much lower frequency in TTan (11.1%). This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from 76% in Morocco to ~10% in Egypt.45 Arredi et al45 dated this haplogroup in North Africa from 2800 to 9800 YBP, associating its expansion with the Neolithic demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.

The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post-LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ~9000 and ~3000 years ago. The upper time limit is defined by the age of the M1a2a, (estimated here from the coding region diversity observed in the three Tuareg, two North and two south Mediterranean individuals at 8000±2400), and by the upper 95% confidence interval for the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (8800 years ago); the lower limit is defined by the age of the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (3600 years ago).




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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger as if we haven't already established that R-V88 generally has a West/Central African affinity today?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB]
quote:
Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger
I said R1b
Do you have a source specifying that the clade is V88 ?


The fact they are npt primarily E3 is surprising to me. One can not make easy generalizations because the berbers, being nomadic have a lot of diverse mixture as per the various groups

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by the Lioness:
I said R1b

Point taken.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB]
quote:
Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger
I said R1b
Do you have a source specifying that the clade is V88 ?


The fact they are npt primarily E3 is surprising to me. One can not make easy generalizations because the berbers, being nomadic have a lot of diverse mixture as per the various groups

Keyword is being nomadic! Ancient pastoralists!
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger as if we haven't already established that R-V88 generally has a West/Central African affinity today?
So true.
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Hence I am very interested to know about their (Black Amazigh) DNA, and how it clusters with other African groups.

...The LIbyan Tuareg have the highest frequencies of mtDNA H in the world, 65% but at low diversity.

Haplogroup H is the most common mtDNA in Europe and is considered Near Eastern origin, possibly Anatolia but it was found in 12,000year old remains in Taforalt Morocco. However the Iberomaurusian population it was found in have very cold adapted limbs that are in the range of arctic people.


we have gone over all the berber DNA studies there are in this forum

quote:

Whereas inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g., Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers, and South Moroccans. For example, the Andalucians share many IBD segments with the Tunisians (Fig. 3), who present extremely minimal levels of European ancestry. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.

[...]

Alternative models of gene flow: Migration(s) from the Near East likely have had an effect on genetic diversity between southern and northern Europe (discussed below), but do not appear to explain the gradients of African ancestry in Europe. A model of gene flow from the Near East into both Europe and North Africa, such as a strong demic wave during the Neolithic, could result in shared haplotypes between Europe and North Africa. However, we observe haplotype sharing between Europe and the Near East follows a southeast to southwest gradient, while sharing between Europe and the Maghreb follows the opposite pattern (Fig. 2); this suggests that gene flow from the Near East cannot account for the sharing with North Africa.

--Laura R. Botiguéa,1, Brenna M. Henn et al

Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe (July 16, 2013)


Or this, lioness.


quote:
Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.

Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.

--Brotherton P1, Haak W, Templeton J,

Nat Commun. 2013;4:1764. doi: 10.1038/ncomms2656.

Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23612305

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger as if we haven't already established that R-V88 generally has a West/Central African affinity today?
So true.
If that's true show us a source that says Tuareg from Niger have V88
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Hence I am very interested to know about their (Black Amazigh) DNA, and how it clusters with other African groups.

The remaining Libyan Tuareg mainly belong to two other West Eurasian mtDNA lineages, M1 and V.[107] M1 is today most common among other Afro-Asiatic speakers inhabiting East Africa, and is believed to have arrived on the continent along with the U6 haplogroup around 40,000 years ago.[108]


we have gone over all the berber DNA studies there are in this forum

Really? [Big Grin]


 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the Lioness:
However at the same time

Why are you juxtaposing R-V88 and a higher proportion of western L lineages in Tuareg from Niger as if we haven't already established that R-V88 generally has a West/Central African affinity today?
So true.
If that's true show us a source that says Tuareg from Niger have V88
I have stated from the beginning, Siwa berbers and berbers from south of the Sahara, generally cluster.

Throughout the Sahara / Sahel region Hausa, Tuareg and Fulani cluster historically, culturally and to some degree also genetically.

quote:
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than ∼9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago.
--Luísa Pereira, et al.

Eur J Hum Genet. 2010 Aug; 18(8): 915–923.
Published online 2010 Mar 17. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.21


 -


 -


 -


quote:
When the linguistic affiliation of the populations from the central Sahel was also taken into account, a clear-cut divide was observed between those speaking Afroasiatic languages (including the Berber-speaking Tuareg, the Semitic Arab Shuwa, and Chadic-speaking populations from northern Cameroon) and the other populations (Mann–Whitney test P=1.4 × 10−3), with Chadic-speaking populations mostly contributing to this difference. It is worth noting that, if the finding of 20% R-V88 chromosomes among the Hausa (Table 1) is representative, this population, encompassing by far more people than all other Chadic speakers,44 also encompasses the highest absolute number of V88 carriers.
--Fulvio Cruciani, et al.

Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

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Cross post:

quote:


Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines hap- logroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].

[...]

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1). Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C- specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6 in the tree by Karafet et al. [14] (Figure S1). Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32,33]. To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia. Two mutations, V248 and V87, which had never been previously described, were found to be specific to haplogroups C2 and C3, respectively (Figure S1). Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Supporting Information

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF)

--Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree


quote:



To test the robustness of the backbone and the root of current Y chromosome phylogeny, we searched for SNPs that might be informative in this respect. To this aim, a resequencing analysis of a 205.9 kb MSY portion (183.5 kb in the X-degenerate and 22.4 kb in the X-transposed region) was performed for each of seven chromosomes that are representative of clade A (four chromosomes belonging to haplogroups A1a, A1b, A2, and A3), clade B, and clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R) (Table S1 available online).

The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

--Fulvio Cruciani

A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa

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