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Author Topic: DNA studies if black amazigh im Morocco
Askia_The_Great
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@Ish Gebor: Thanks for the sources.


@Swenet: Great Swenet... Now I have to update my views on the proto-Berbers and Maghreb region yet AGAIN! lol!


quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

I appreciate that you took the time to actually read the relevant parts of the paper. I mainly cited it for the dates it gives for the Iberomaurusian, but I see you read more than just that summary.

Thanks but you shouldn't give me too much credit, because I have used that same study MANY upon MANY times in debates.

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Personally, I'm doubtful that E-M81 was brought to the Maghreb by Berber speakers. As I point out here and here, I think that E-M81 was already in the Maghreb before that.

Okay... This is freaking interesting. And this is the first time I am hearing something like this. I always thought that E-M81 was "the Berber marker" and that it proved Berbers East African paternal origins. But now you're saying that it could actually be a local Maghreb marker and not East African? Interesting.

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
In fact, the paternal line that carries the E-M81 mutation breaks away from E-M35 around the same time when the Iberomaurusian industry starts to spread in the coastal areas of the Maghreb (according to Trombetta et al, this paternal line emerged ~25ky ago). Just like this paternal line is connected to Red Sea coast E-M35, so are Iberomaurusian tools related to some Late Palaeolihtic Nile Valley tools. Also, E-M81 is older than brother clade E-M78. This is interesting because both come from the Nile Valley region, but only E-M78 is dominant there today. This argues against an early or mid-holocene arrival of E-M81 in the Maghreb with the Berber speakers. Because E-M81 is not an important lineage east of Libya (not even among Siwa Berbers), it suggests that the branch that carries the E-M81 mutation left the eastern Sahara early. So, these are some of the indications we have that the specifics of the FIRST Iberomaurusian cultures and the E-Z827/E-V257/E-M81 lineage line up nicely. We just can't prove it conclusively, yet. We need aDNA for this.

Okay all of this makes sense now... Especially E-M81 breaking away from E-M35 around the Iberomaurusian industry starts ti head to the coast.

Also people always assume that the Siwa are not "true Berbers" because their men do not carry E-M81, but now it seems that Maghreb Berbers may not be the "true Berbers." Am I making sense? Have Siwa Berber men ever been detected of carrying E-M35? I know I am asking a complicated question.

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
To answer your question: the Iberomaurusian has affinities with industries in the Nile Valley. There also is a 15-20ky gap between the Aterian and the Iberomaurusian. This makes an identification of the Iberomaurusians with the Aterians difficult. Although you're right to say that elements of the Aterians seem to have survived and passed some of their DNA to living northwest Africans and West/Central Africans.

I never heard the bolded before. Again VERY game changing for me... I always assumed the Nile Valley and Maghreb were always divorced from other another i.e Maghreb clades like U6 and E-M81 hardly being found in the Nile Valley. Anyways all in all are you saying the FIRST people of the Iberomaurusian industry had affinities with those from the Nile Valley, but they were soon absorbed by migrating Eurasians? Again I know I am asking complicated and long questions but you forced me to update my views again. lol...
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:


quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
To answer your question: the Iberomaurusian has affinities with industries in the Nile Valley.


I never heard the bolded before.
the claim would need a source to credible
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Swenet
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Yes. E-M81 didn't exist yet during the first Iberomaurusian migrations; only its precursors (E-Z827 and E-V257) would have existed. If this paternal line is indeed associated with the first Iberomaurusians, E-M81 has to emerge in the Maghreb. This is because the Iberomaurusian industry is confined to the Maghrebi 'coast' unlike the Aterian and Capsian.

quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Also people always assume that the Siwa are not "true Berbers" because their men do not carry E-M81, but now it seems that Maghreb Berbers may not be the "true Berbers." Am I making sense? Have Siwa Berber men ever been detected of carrying E-M35? I know I am asking a complicated question.

Yes, they're not like the first Berbers biologically. Ideally, we should make a distinction between Berbers in a biological sense and Berbers in a linguistic sense. Just like we should make a distinction between the first Iberomaurusians and the much later Afalou and Taforalt samples.

The Siwa Berbers have E-M35. For instance, the 2nd highest frequency of E-M35 they have is E-V65. As I've said earlier, this is, in my view, an important marker of the first Berber speakers.

quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I never heard the bolded before. Again VERY game changing for me... I always assumed the Nile Valley and Maghreb were always divorced from other another i.e Maghreb clades like U6 and E-M81 hardly being found in the Nile Valley. Anyways all in all are you saying the FIRST people of the Iberomaurusian industry had affinities with those from the Nile Valley, but they were soon absorbed by migrating Eurasians?

Pennarun talks about the close relationship between the Iberomaurusian and certain Nile Valley industries in the part of the paper I brought up earlier. I think you may have missed the fact that Egypt is in the list. Note also that they list Upper Egypt first, meaning, the oldest, in their list of dates.

quote:
Whilst a techno-typological shift occurred within the Dabban ~33 KYA [19], starker changes in the archaeological record occurred throughout North Africa and Southwest Asia ~23-20 KYA, represented by the widespread appearance of backed bladelet technologies. The appearance of these backed bladelet industries more or less coincides with the timing of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) (~23-18 KYA), including: ~21 KYA in Upper Egypt [20]; ~20 KYA at Haua Fteah with the Oranian [21]; the Iberomaurusian expansion in the Jebel Gharbi ~20 KYA [22]; and the first Iberomaurusian at Tamar Hat in Algeria ~20 KYA [23]. The earliest Iberomaurusian sites in Morocco appear to be only slightly younger ~18 KYA [24]. Whilst backed bladelet production is broadly shared across the different regions of North and East Africa, there was also a level of regional cultural diversity during this period, possibly mirroring a diversification of populations.
--Pennarun et al 2012
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

^They were makers of the Iberomaurusian industry. But are they genetically the same as the first makers of this industry? That is a part of the discussion of their origins that we never really addressed.

The Taforalt and Afalou samples date to the last stage of the Iberomaurusian (they're just a bit older than the beginning of the Capsian). The first Iberomaurusians lithics are in the 25-20ky range (see Pennarun et al 2012's summary). That's at least 10.000 years when we have no large skeletal sample showing us who the first Iberomaurusians are. In those 10.000 years there could have been a lot of demic diffusion into the coastal areas they inhabited, for all we know. If that happened, we wouldn't even know because we don't have an early Iberomaurusian sample to compare the Afalou and Taforalt samples to.

This is my theory precisely-- that the founders of Iberomaursian or rather Oranian Culture were Africans but during the late phase they recieved influx from Europe which interestingly enough happened around the same time Iberia recieved influx from Africa (L2a etc.) , and when dessication hit, there was isolation and founder effects.

Again, nobody is denying that there was crossover or influence from Europe in the form of say mtDNA hg H but to say that these were the founders of wholesale African cultures is more than a stretch.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by BBH:
The common date I keep hearing for U6 is actually around 60,000 years ago during the Paleolithic and so it is definitely older than 10k. I'm not sure if E-V257 is even that old.

E-M35 starts to break up into different branches after 25ky. One of these branches contains the E-V257 mutation. The U6 mutation in Romania, on the other hand, is ~33ky old. That's at least a 10ky old difference in between E-V257 and U6. They still could have been companions during the LGM in Africa, but in that case, something would have brought them together. MtDNA U and E aren't natural companions. So far, the pattern that has emerged from aDNA is that mtDNA U is associated with paternal F, R, I, C, IJK and others, while E is associated with L3.

I'm adding a blogpost in January. I'll let you know when it's done.

I agree with this assessment as well, though I am curious as to the details of your blogpost.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

The most common mtDNA of berbers is haplogroup H.

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

And if haplogroup H did originate in Africa wouldn't that re-write the whole history of modern Europeans?

And the most common Y DNA haplogroup in the European Balkans is haplogroup E.

No. Unlike Xyzman or Winters, I am not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time. This does not surprise me the least since migration works both ways i.e. Africans have crossed the Straits of Gibraltar hence the presence of hg L2 clade in the Iberian Peninsula. There was nothing to stop Europeans from crossing the Gibralter Straits into Africa.

LOL Is this the reason for your reference to President Obama??! That Obama is half-white through his mother and that most Berbers carry an alleged European maternal clade, you then presume that modern Berbers have the same phenotype as modern biracial people who are half-white through their mothers?! LMAO [Big Grin]

Meanwhile, Obama does not answer the traits I pointed out not to mention the traits observed in fossils.

Lioness logic fails once again.

Rita Ora, UK Balkan girl.

 -


 -

And what are you saying? That she looks mixed or "mulatta" also?! LOL One can easily cherry pick individuals who look ethnically ambiguous. There are many 'total' white looking Balkans with blonde hair and blue eyes as well as white Berbers with blonde hair and blue eyes, yet that shouldn't be taken as to exclude the possibility of African ancestry within these individuals.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I too believe the Afalou and Marusian fossil samples contain specimens of European extraction. Hence, why some of the skeletal bodies show cold adaptation. The same can be said about some of the Natufian samples which show the same thing, however one cannot deny the unmistakable African traits also found in samples of both groups.

Dj, what is your opinion on these sources?

quote:
"we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.

[...]

A rare exception is the work by Abbé Roche at Contrebandiers Cave (Témara) and at Grotte des Pigeons (Taforalt) where a series of conventional 14C dates was obtained for Iberomaurusian layers (Roche 1976). Until now, his dates of 21,900±400 bp (Gif-2587) and 21,100±400 bp (Gif-2586) for Taforalt have stood as the oldest for Morocco and are broadly comparable to the lowermost Iberomaurusian layer at Tamar Hat, Algeria which produced an age of 20,600±500 bp (MC-822; Saxon et al. 1974).

[...]

In concluding this brief review it can be inferred on present evidence that microlithic bladelet industries of Iberomaurusian type made a fairly sudden appearance in this part of Africa soon after the LGM and not quite as early as previously asserted by Roche. However, it remains to be seen whether the technology originated in the Maghreb or outside this region, and whether its abrupt appearance can be linked to wider patterns of demic diffusion across areas north of the Sahara and/or in response to rapid climatic change (in this case to a rise in humidity following the LGM). We believe that in order to investigate this question more fully similar studies to the one outlined here will need to be conducted in adjacent areas of the Maghreb and in the Saharan south of Morocco."

--A. Bouzouggar, et al.

Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
June 2008, Volume 25, Issue 1, pp 3–19

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-008-9023-3


quote:
The research agenda on North African prehistory is dominated by three major debates: (1) the timing and dispersal routes of modern humans into the region, and whether particular types of lithic assemblage are reliable indicators of their presence (Cremaschi et al., 1998, Mercier et al., 2007, Smith et al., 2007, Garcea, 2010a, Garcea, 2011, Pereira et al., 2010, Wengler, 2010, Hublin and McPherron, 2011 and Dibble et al., 2012); (2) how successfully, once established, modern human populations were able to adapt to the major climatic and environmental changes of the Late Pleistocene (Barton et al., 2005, Barton et al., 2007, Bouzouggar et al., 2008 and Garcea, 2010b); and (3) the timing and routes of dispersal of plant and animal domesticates in the Early Holocene and the contexts of their use (i.e., by the existing populations of hunter–gatherers and/or by immigrant agricultural populations) (Barker, 2006, Linstädter, 2008 and Dunne et al., 2012). The deep (∼14 m) sequence excavated by Charles McBurney in the 1950s in the Haua Fteah cave in Cyrenaica, northeast Libya (22°3′5″E/32°53′70″N; Fig. 1) has long been central to all three debates because it spanned the Middle and Late Stone Ages (or Middle and Upper Palaeolithic in European terminology), and the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. In fact, the sequence remains unique for the whole of North Africa east of the Maghreb (McBurney, 1967). However, though in many respects the excavations and subsequent analyses of material were pioneering for their time, techniques in cave excavation, deep-time radiometric dating and archaeological science more generally have all been transformed in the ensuing sixty years; the context for the renewal of fieldwork at the site in 2007 (Barker et al., 2007, Barker et al., 2008, Barker et al., 2009, Barker et al., 2010 and Barker et al., 2012). Here we report the initial results of a comprehensive dating program of the geological and cultural sequences that has been one of the primary objectives of the new project.
--Katerina Douka et al.

The chronostratigraphy of the Haua Fteah cave (Cyrenaica, northeast Libya)

Journal of Human Evolution
January 2014, Vol.66:39–63, doi:10.1016/j.jhevol.2013.10.001

quote:

"El Harhoura 2 and El Mnasra caves are located in the region of Témara, on the Atlantic coast of Morocco, which was occupied by human populations since the beginning of the Late Pleistocene (around 120 ka BP) until the Middle Holocene (around 6 ka BP). Recent excavations yielded human and faunal remains, as well as exceptional archaeological objects (Middle, Upper Palaeolithic and Neolithic industries; ceramics; ornaments in Nassarius sp. shells; bone tools; pigments) associated with anthropic structures. The continuous sedimentary sequence of these sites covers the last climatic cycle (from the Eemian interglacial to the present one), and is studied in a renewed context from several points of view: geology, stratigraphy, chronology, cultures, anthropology, palaeontology, taphonomy, and zooarchaeology. Today, there is no equivalent of such regional data for the whole Late Pleistocene in North Africa. The study of small and large faunal remains, associated with chronological data, allowed us to obtain significant data on palaeoenvironments and human/carnivore occupations of the Témara caves. These data are included in a broader view of human occupations and their environmental context throughout North Africa during the Late Pleistocene and Holocene."

--Emmanuelle Stoetzel et al.

Context of modern human occupations in North Africa: Contribution of the Témara caves data

Quaternary International
23 January 2014, Vol.320:143–161, doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2013.05.017
Northwest African prehistory: Recent work, new results and interpretations

As I've always said, there is NOTHING to indicate that the Oranian/Iberomarusian culture originated from anywhere else but Africa, I merely think that there was some Eurasian genetic influnce via Iberia the same way African genetic influence from the Maghreb entered Iberia.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
As I've always said, there is NOTHING to indicate that the Oranian/Iberomarusian culture originated from anywhere else but Africa

What about the fact that their mtDNA was haplogroup H and limb proportions similar to arctic peoples?
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
There are Toureg in North and West Africa who are jet black. Picking pictures from google doesn't say much. Especially when people have not actually gone to these areas themselves and seen what the people actually look like.

No offense but you clearly missed the ball for my post. I picked those pictures for a reason. Again I said imo the early Berbers in the Maghreb would have had skin tone similar to Khosian, because both the Khoisan and Berbers of the Maghreb live in Mediterranean climates which would allow the skin tones in the two pics to evolve...
 -

I am clearly aware that there are jet black Tuaregs especially in Niger and Southern Libya.

Indeed, this was my very hypothesis exactly-- that Africans living in a Mediterranean latitude would exhibit relative lighter skin tones ala the Khoisan. The Khoisan exhibit such skin tones without admixture despite the claims of some Euronuts to the contrary. Like all else Africans possess the bulk of alleles for skin color but their geographic position does not allow for as great a selection of variation as found in Eurasia since Africa's outlying range is only mediterranean.

Recall Manilius' list of black peoples with the Maghrebi Afer and Mauri being on the lightest end of the scale.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
As I've always said, there is NOTHING to indicate that the Oranian/Iberomarusian culture originated from anywhere else but Africa

What about the fact that their mtDNA was haplogroup H and limb proportions similar to arctic peoples?
Read my previous posts, you dolt. Just because individuals found in the late phases of the culture show European affinities does not make these individuals the founders of that culture! There are Natufians that show cold adapted traits with European like cranial features but that does not meany they are representative of the founders of the culture let alone represent all Natufians some of whom show tropically adapted African traits.

The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).

Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).


--Lawrence Barham
The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)

I thought all of this was explained to you before, but of course you conveniently forget info that doesn't agree with your agenda. [Wink]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Just because individuals found in the late phases of the culture show European affinities does not make these individuals the founders of that culture!

Do you have a source stating that skeletal remains of an earlier phase of Iberomarusian culture had tropical limbs or limbs that were any less cold adapted ?
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Djehuti
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^ Actually all the skeletal remains showing European features i.e. not only cold adapted limbs but cranial traits that align with Europeans come from later phases of the culture. Do you have have any from 20k bp?? If so, please post it!
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Actually all the skeletal remains showing European features i.e. not only cold adapted limbs but cranial traits that align with Europeans come from later phases of the culture. Do you have have any from 20k bp?? If so, please post it!

I am aware of the cold adapted traits associated with Iberomarusian culture and the discontinuity it was with the earlier Aterian period and hiatus but I didn't know about a less cold adapted morphology with the earlier phase of Iberomarusian. Do you have a source on it?

People often fail to mention the Capsian who had more gracile proportions who replaced the Iberomarusian.
The Capsians are more recent in time to the berbers. However there is another settlement hiatus after them so continuity is also hard to establish

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

The Toubou in Libya are dark skinned and look like other Africans.
Tuareg are much more varied there, many medium dark skinned but partially Arab looking others looking more like other Africans. In antiquity, the Tuareg moved southward from the Tafilalt region in Southern Morocco into the Sahel under the Tuareg founding queen Tin Hinan, who is believed to have lived between the 4th and 5th century.
Tuareg live in 7 different countries and are estimated to have a population of 2.5 million.
The population number for Tuareg in Libya is uncertain wikipedia estimate in 1993 was 20,000.
Morocco only several thousand
However Niger has by far the largest Tuareg population at 2.5 million, Mali, second in line a half million.
Relative to most Libyan Tuareg the Niger Tuareg look more like other Africans, many quite dark, to the south and their maternal DNA reflects this

_______________________

Historically, Bella slaves always constituted the numerically dominant Tuareg ethnic population.

https://culanth.org/fieldsights/328-the-end-of-tuareg-apartheid-in-the-sahel

The End of Tuareg Apartheid in the Sahel
by Kassim Kone

This article is part of the series Mali, March 2012
For centuries, the Tuareg minority in Mali has applied violence or the threat of violence to get what they have wanted from their Black neighbors. French colonialism and independence did not change that. Successive Tuareg rebellions followed independence and each time, the Tuareg requested resources and recent governments have rewarded them. As one of the smallest minority groups, they received the most aid per capita and representation in parliament than any other ethnic group.

The Tuareg rebellion that started in January 2012 was the last straw that likely broke the camel’s back and put an end to Tuareg apartheid in the Sahel. The Tuareg constitute approximately 2% of the Northern Malian population, which in turn is only 10% of the Malian people. For some Tuareg rebels, their being white under a black government constitutes a basis for armed conflict. The current rebellion was different due to exactions that ensued and it served as a Trojan horse for bringing in Mali previously unknown forms of extremism from radical Muslim groups such AQIM, MUJAO, ANSAR DINE. The events the 2012 rebellion unleashed have awakened new consciousness that will change Tuareg-Black relationship forever.

Tuareg society is a highly complex hierarchy of noble warriors, free men, artisan castes and slaves. There never existed a Tuareg kingdom, but Tuareg managed everywhere to establish confederations and forms of Tuareg apartheid in which a minority of Tuareg brutally exploited a majority of Bella slaves. This rigid hierarchy made of an aristocratic warrior class, the imajeren, exploits other freeborn Tuareg, who in turn exploits vassal castes (imrad), the Bella slaves (iklan) being at the very bottom of this system. The only groups not subjected to this cruel exploitation are the Islamic cleric caste (Ineslemen). When the French colonial administration with their “Liberté, Fraternité, Egalité,” ideals attempted to end slavery and initiate the notion of equality in the early 20th century, the Tuareg reaction was that no fraternity could exist between lions, hyenas, jackals, cattle, donkeys, sheep and goats. (Mariko 1984: 36).

Tuareg economy traditionally relied on animal husbandry, enslavement and pillage. The Bella slaves were always integrated in Tuareg socio-economic systems to the point that the system would collapse without these slaves, and with it Tuareg cultural identity. Aristocrats lived outside law, oppressed, exploited and pillaged from other Tuaregs of lower castes. The Bella men took care of farms and animals while their wives worked as maids to their owners. Tuareg nobility raped the women and daughters of lower castes with total impunity (Mariko 1984: 17-18, 29). This institution continued throughout the colonial period and to some extent until the present (Pasteur Ag Infa 2013). Even when slavery became illegal, the black person of any background remains a slave in Tuareg imagination.

Historically, Bella slaves always constituted the numerically dominant Tuareg ethnic population. In 1946 letter to the Governor of the French Sudan in Bamako, the French administrator of Timbuktu informed the governor that the Bella population constituted ľ of the total population of the Gourma region in the French Sudan (modern Mali). Extrapolating this in 2013 makes the [Tuareg] owners of slaves a slim minority before a peaceful Bella majority (Ag Intazoumé 2013). In the past, when slavery was openly allowed, Bella majority did not count, but in today’s world, it should matter.

Pillage through violence or the threat of violence has traditionally been a Tuareg way of life. Réné Caillé in “Voyage ŕ Tombouctou’’ reports that by the threat of violence with weapons the Tuareg made tributary all their Negro neighbors and stole from them in the most terrible ways (Volume II, pp. 199-200) “They come to Timbuktu to snatch from the people that what they call presents, and that could be more accurately called forced contributions.” (ibid:228). The Tuareg led 2012 rebellion pillaged around 18 billion CFA francs from Northern Malian banks (Daou 2013), and invaluable resources from private people and government facilities.

At independence many Tuareg groups became citizens of Black majority nations in the wider Sahelian region. Tuareg rebellions soon started with claims of autonomy or independence. Amidst government repressions of these movements in Mali the Tuareg have received more government attention than their neighbors (Songhay, Fulani, Arab, Bella, Sorko). Tuareg violent uprisings of the 1990s, 2000s were rewarded with the Malian government’s bending backwards to cajole them. From the killing of government civil servants to the abduction of civilians and regular military personnel to the kidnapping of Europeans for ransom, the more things changed, the more they remained the same for the Tuareg. Not anymore. A leader of the 1990s rebellion once said: "We (Tuareg) are the only representatives of the white race still dominated by blacks" (Marion 1991). This was right before the release of Nelson Mandela and the subsequent true end of Apartheid. As in South Africa, the time for a minority to make claims through the use of violence on the majority as in South Africa should be a thing of the past.

Kassim Koné is Associate Professor of Sociology and Anthropology at State University of New York - Cortland.

 -
Kassim Koné

Yes, we veteran posters in this forum have long been aware that Tuareg society is a caste based one years before Mathilda first sent you to subvert this forum! Are you aware that such a caste system exists in other African nomadic societies including the Toubou as well as 'Sub-Saharan' ones like the Oromo and Somali??

You are correct that low or slave caste members should not be used to represent all Tuareg, however newsflash: the majority of pictures posted in this forum are of the upper kel or castes:

 -

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By the way, the high castes trace matrilineal descent.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Actually all the skeletal remains showing European features i.e. not only cold adapted limbs but cranial traits that align with Europeans come from later phases of the culture. Do you have have any from 20k bp?? If so, please post it!

I am aware of the cold adapted traits associated with Iberomarusian culture and the discontinuity it was with the earlier Aterian period and hiatus but I didn't know about a less cold adapted morphology with the earlier phase of Iberomarusian. Do you have a source on it?
Again, all you're doing is cherry picking the remains of those individuals that do show cold adapted limbs. It's not only the limbs but those same individuals also show European craniofacial features. Again, I ask you to produce evidence that these individuals represent ALL Oranians let alone the founders of the Oranian culture 20k bp. Tell me, why is it that anthropologists have noted African traits as peculiar for Natufians (and European first farmers) even though there are Natufians that exhibit non-African traits?? Why are you only point out Marusian remains that show European traits when there are remains with African traits hence the source I cited??
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Actually all the skeletal remains showing European features i.e. not only cold adapted limbs but cranial traits that align with Europeans come from later phases of the culture. Do you have have any from 20k bp?? If so, please post it! [/QB]

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Unlike Xyzman or Winters, I am not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time.


part of the quote you referred to earlier:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

[QUOTE]

Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990).

--Lawrence Barham
[i]The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)



You are using a quote which says that Mechta-Afalou was definitely African in origin and does not correspond to when you said you were " not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time."

The Barham quote does not say any phase of the Iberomaurusian was Eurasian. It says they were robust but mentions no Eurasian input. This suggests their robustness was local African (and European looking features you mentioned)
So Barham corresponds to Clyde, xyyman and Ish Gebor but not you. You are using a quote which does not say what you said

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Djehuti
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^ If you don't understand the simple concept of the Mechta having an African origin while having Eurasian influence, and how one does not contradict the other then I'm sorry but I can't help you! [Roll Eyes]

Your mistress Mathilda should have hired smarter agents if she expects to get anywhere near undermining this forum. LOL [Big Grin]

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

The most common mtDNA of berbers is haplogroup H.

Do you think haplogroup H originated in Africa?

And if haplogroup H did originate in Africa wouldn't that re-write the whole history of modern Europeans?

And the most common Y DNA haplogroup in the European Balkans is haplogroup E.

No. Unlike Xyzman or Winters, I am not in denial of the Eurasian origin of hg H or that Eurasians did have a genetic influence in the Maghreb at such an early time. This does not surprise me the least since migration works both ways i.e. Africans have crossed the Straits of Gibraltar hence the presence of hg L2 clade in the Iberian Peninsula. There was nothing to stop Europeans from crossing the Gibralter Straits into Africa.

LOL Is this the reason for your reference to President Obama??! That Obama is half-white through his mother and that most Berbers carry an alleged European maternal clade, you then presume that modern Berbers have the same phenotype as modern biracial people who are half-white through their mothers?! LMAO [Big Grin]

Meanwhile, Obama does not answer the traits I pointed out not to mention the traits observed in fossils.

Lioness logic fails once again.

Rita Ora, UK Balkan girl.

 -


 -

And what are you saying? That she looks mixed or "mulatta" also?! LOL One can easily cherry pick individuals who look ethnically ambiguous. There are many 'total' white looking Balkans with blonde hair and blue eyes as well as white Berbers with blonde hair and blue eyes, yet that shouldn't be taken as to exclude the possibility of African ancestry within these individuals.
I did not say anything about mixed. But there are indeed many Balkans who do look like Rita Ora, it could be that her treats are actually old to the region that is what I am saying. (I have been there myself). For blonde, blue eyed Berbers, that is a rare phenomenon. You will find them, but on a rare occasion.

A few years back I spoke with a Berber girl, she told me that she has a girl friend with blue eyes and blond hair. She said it's weird she looks a bit Dutch. I didn't say anything in return.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ If you don't understand the simple concept of the Mechta having an African origin while having Eurasian influence, and how one does not contradict the other then I'm sorry but I can't help you! [Roll Eyes]

Your mistress Mathilda should have hired smarter agents if she expects to get anywhere near undermining this forum. LOL [Big Grin]

It is like going in circles with lioness. No progression whatsoever. All this was addressed before, but we are back at the same old same old.

I have posted quite a few sources on climatology in that region, which explain the possibility for cold adaptation.

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Djehuti
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^ LOL Do you recall just how many threads on the subject of North African Berber genetics we've had in this forum with Lioness?? Too many!! Yet she keeps talking the same stupid sh*t.
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

I did not say anything about mixed. But there are indeed many Balkans who do look like Rita Ora, it could be that her treats are actually old to the region that is what I am saying. (I have been there myself). For blonde, blue eyed Berbers, that is a rare phenomenon. You will find them, but on a rare occasion.

A few years back I spoke with a Berber girl, she told me that she has a girl friend with blue eyes and blond hair. She said it's weird she looks a bit Dutch. I didn't say anything in return.

Are you aware there are people in Ukraine and Russia who have the same dark so-called "mulattoish" looks? Such people are often called 'Black Russians'.
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BrandonP
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As an aside, the Berbers were added as a playable civilization in the "African Kingdoms" expansion pack for the Steam version of Age of Empires II (check it out here, but you'll need Steam and AoE2:HD to play it). They got the same Middle Eastern architecture set as the base game's Saracens, Persians, and Turks, rather than the newly added African architecture for the Malian and Ethiopian civilizations. I wouldn't say that's totally inappropriate given the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern genetic and cultural influences on most Berber populations, but I do think it sorta sucks that only two civilizations in African Kingdoms got the African architecture set. So would people be down for an architecture-swap mod that gives the new African architecture to the Berbers?

This is what the African architecture set looks like BTW:

Link

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I too believe the Afalou and Marusian fossil samples contain specimens of European extraction. Hence, why some of the skeletal bodies show cold adaptation. The same can be said about some of the Natufian samples which show the same thing, however one cannot deny the unmistakable African traits also found in samples of both groups.

Dj, what is your opinion on these sources?

quote:
"we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.

[...]

A rare exception is the work by Abbé Roche at Contrebandiers Cave (Témara) and at Grotte des Pigeons (Taforalt) where a series of conventional 14C dates was obtained for Iberomaurusian layers (Roche 1976). Until now, his dates of 21,900±400 bp (Gif-2587) and 21,100±400 bp (Gif-2586) for Taforalt have stood as the oldest for Morocco and are broadly comparable to the lowermost Iberomaurusian layer at Tamar Hat, Algeria which produced an age of 20,600±500 bp (MC-822; Saxon et al. 1974).

[...]

In concluding this brief review it can be inferred on present evidence that microlithic bladelet industries of Iberomaurusian type made a fairly sudden appearance in this part of Africa soon after the LGM and not quite as early as previously asserted by Roche. However, it remains to be seen whether the technology originated in the Maghreb or outside this region, and whether its abrupt appearance can be linked to wider patterns of demic diffusion across areas north of the Sahara and/or in response to rapid climatic change (in this case to a rise in humidity following the LGM). We believe that in order to investigate this question more fully similar studies to the one outlined here will need to be conducted in adjacent areas of the Maghreb and in the Saharan south of Morocco."

--A. Bouzouggar, et al.

Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
June 2008, Volume 25, Issue 1, pp 3–19

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-008-9023-3


quote:
The research agenda on North African prehistory is dominated by three major debates: (1) the timing and dispersal routes of modern humans into the region, and whether particular types of lithic assemblage are reliable indicators of their presence (Cremaschi et al., 1998, Mercier et al., 2007, Smith et al., 2007, Garcea, 2010a, Garcea, 2011, Pereira et al., 2010, Wengler, 2010, Hublin and McPherron, 2011 and Dibble et al., 2012); (2) how successfully, once established, modern human populations were able to adapt to the major climatic and environmental changes of the Late Pleistocene (Barton et al., 2005, Barton et al., 2007, Bouzouggar et al., 2008 and Garcea, 2010b); and (3) the timing and routes of dispersal of plant and animal domesticates in the Early Holocene and the contexts of their use (i.e., by the existing populations of hunter–gatherers and/or by immigrant agricultural populations) (Barker, 2006, Linstädter, 2008 and Dunne et al., 2012). The deep (∼14 m) sequence excavated by Charles McBurney in the 1950s in the Haua Fteah cave in Cyrenaica, northeast Libya (22°3′5″E/32°53′70″N; Fig. 1) has long been central to all three debates because it spanned the Middle and Late Stone Ages (or Middle and Upper Palaeolithic in European terminology), and the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. In fact, the sequence remains unique for the whole of North Africa east of the Maghreb (McBurney, 1967). However, though in many respects the excavations and subsequent analyses of material were pioneering for their time, techniques in cave excavation, deep-time radiometric dating and archaeological science more generally have all been transformed in the ensuing sixty years; the context for the renewal of fieldwork at the site in 2007 (Barker et al., 2007, Barker et al., 2008, Barker et al., 2009, Barker et al., 2010 and Barker et al., 2012). Here we report the initial results of a comprehensive dating program of the geological and cultural sequences that has been one of the primary objectives of the new project.
--Katerina Douka et al.

The chronostratigraphy of the Haua Fteah cave (Cyrenaica, northeast Libya)

Journal of Human Evolution
January 2014, Vol.66:39–63, doi:10.1016/j.jhevol.2013.10.001

quote:

"El Harhoura 2 and El Mnasra caves are located in the region of Témara, on the Atlantic coast of Morocco, which was occupied by human populations since the beginning of the Late Pleistocene (around 120 ka BP) until the Middle Holocene (around 6 ka BP). Recent excavations yielded human and faunal remains, as well as exceptional archaeological objects (Middle, Upper Palaeolithic and Neolithic industries; ceramics; ornaments in Nassarius sp. shells; bone tools; pigments) associated with anthropic structures. The continuous sedimentary sequence of these sites covers the last climatic cycle (from the Eemian interglacial to the present one), and is studied in a renewed context from several points of view: geology, stratigraphy, chronology, cultures, anthropology, palaeontology, taphonomy, and zooarchaeology. Today, there is no equivalent of such regional data for the whole Late Pleistocene in North Africa. The study of small and large faunal remains, associated with chronological data, allowed us to obtain significant data on palaeoenvironments and human/carnivore occupations of the Témara caves. These data are included in a broader view of human occupations and their environmental context throughout North Africa during the Late Pleistocene and Holocene."

--Emmanuelle Stoetzel et al.

Context of modern human occupations in North Africa: Contribution of the Témara caves data

Quaternary International
23 January 2014, Vol.320:143–161, doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2013.05.017
Northwest African prehistory: Recent work, new results and interpretations

As I've always said, there is NOTHING to indicate that the Oranian/Iberomarusian culture originated from anywhere else but Africa, I merely think that there was some Eurasian genetic influnce via Iberia the same way African genetic influence from the Maghreb entered Iberia.
Absolutely. The oldest stone tool industries in the world are in Africa, yet to hear Europeans tell it, the 'stone age' is a European phenomenon (aka The Flintstones, or the cavemen).

This is why scientists had to rename the chronology of the stone age to reflect the fact that African stone industries were older than and precursors of the industries in Europe.

quote:

The Later Stone Age (or LSA) is a period in African prehistory that follows the Early Stone Age and Middle Stone Age. All three periods are often confused with the Lower Paleolithic, Middle Paleolithic, and Upper Paleolithic. In the 1920s, it became clear to archaeologists that the existing chronological system of Upper, Middle, and Lower Paleolithic was not a suitable correlate to the prehistoric past in Africa.

The terms Early, Middle, and Later Stone Age were developed to address this issue. Some scholars, however, still view these two chronologies as parallel, arguing that they both represent the development of behavioral modernity.[1] The Later Stone Age is associated with the advent of modern human behavior in Africa, although definitions of this concept and means of studying it are up for debate. The transition from the Middle Stone Age to the Later Stone Age is thought to have occurred first in eastern Africa between 50,000 and 39,000 years ago. It is also thought that Later Stone Age peoples and/or their technologies spread out of Africa over the next several thousand years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Later_Stone_Age
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I agree with this assessment as well, though I am curious as to the details of your blogpost.

I feel like I'm ahead of a lot of things that I want to record before someone else beats me to it. Then I like to sit back and watch the literature catch up. [Cool]

I have more than one blogpost draft waiting to be published. But it takes time to put your own ideas down in an organized way along with sources. Sometimes you find more supporting evidence as you're writing things down.

I think you'll be interested in this one that's upcoming.

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Djehuti
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^ Right now I'm working on papers focused on the cultural aspects of Nile Valley civilization.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
this is exactly why DNA does NOT tell the whole story, and why we MUST know history to interpret DNA. In the balkans, and places like Bosnia and even in parts of Russia, Africans had come in, as soldiers and traders with the Turks. I know personally of Bosnians who look like they have African ancestry somewhere way back. It is because of that early African presence. Same way in West Africa I know of Fulanis and other groups who have Europeans in them. Because Europeans had been enslaved in West Africa at one time. Especially in the 1600s and 1700s.

I have been to East Europe and Have seen people who look like they had African ancestry.
i have a good friend from Bosnia. He was the one who told me a LOT of Nubians had poured in there during Turkish campaigns in the area. Most were conscripted soldiers. He said a LOT of those dark Bosnians have Nubian ancestry.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
There are Toureg in North and West Africa who are jet black. Picking pictures from google doesn't say much. Especially when people have not actually gone to these areas themselves and seen what the people actually look like.

No offense but you clearly missed the ball for my post. I picked those pictures for a reason. Again I said imo the early Berbers in the Maghreb would have had skin tone similar to Khosian, because both the Khoisan and Berbers of the Maghreb live in Mediterranean climates which would allow the skin tones in the two pics to evolve...
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I am clearly aware that there are jet black Tuaregs especially in Niger and Southern Libya.

There jet black toureg and other amazigh groups through out north africa. I am not sure about Khoisan and their history. But I know millions of Europeans were enslaved and also moved to North Africa for trade and other reasons and they mixed in with local populations, hence the skin ton variety.
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Djehuti
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^ It's likely those jet-black Tuareg belong to the serf and slave castes. But regardless, even the lighter-skinned ruling castes are not exactly the white or even off-white 'Caucasians' many Euronuts fantasize about. But you are correct that an untold thousands of Europeans especially women were imported into North Africa during the Ummayad Empire.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

i have a good friend from Bosnia. He was the one who told me a LOT of Nubians had poured in there during Turkish campaigns in the area. Most were conscripted soldiers. He said a LOT of those dark Bosnians have Nubian ancestry.

That makes sense. I have heard of the reverse--both from our old moderator Ausar as well as real Egyptians--that Janissaries (Europeans mainly from the Balkans that were conscripted by the Ottomans) either intermarried or raped Egyptian and Nubian women in the Nile Valley which explains the presence of blonde hair and blue eyes which are even unusual traits in Turks and Arabs.

African Ottoman Soldier
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I agree with this assessment as well, though I am curious as to the details of your blogpost.

I feel like I'm ahead of a lot of things that I want to record before someone else beats me to it. Then I like to sit back and watch the literature catch up. [Cool]

I have more than one blogpost draft waiting to be published. But it takes time to put your own ideas down in an organized way along with sources. Sometimes you find more supporting evidence as you're writing things down.

I think you'll be interested in this one that's upcoming.

You are basically writing books, and that does take time.

Why not truly publish in e-pub?

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ It's likely those jet-black Tuareg belong to the serf and slave castes. But regardless, even the lighter-skinned ruling castes are not exactly the white or even off-white 'Caucasians' many Euronuts fantasize about. But you are correct that an untold thousands of Europeans especially women were imported into North Africa during the Ummayad Empire.

nope, I personally know black Kel tamashek who are nobles. But this is the difference between actually going to or living in Africa and relying in second hand sources. Now it is a fact a lot of white and tan tamashek are lower class and slaves. Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.i personally know descendants of slave fulani of white ancestry
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ It's likely those jet-black Tuareg belong to the serf and slave castes. But regardless, even the lighter-skinned ruling castes are not exactly the white or even off-white 'Caucasians' many Euronuts fantasize about. But you are correct that an untold thousands of Europeans especially women were imported into North Africa during the Ummayad Empire.

Depends on the Kel. If you look at the wars the French had with the Tuareg, they documented the various chiefs that they negotiated with and they are almost all very black. I posted some old images of these Tuareg Chiefs on this forum a few years back and don't feel like digging it up.

But here is a postcard from that era:

 -
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-sultan-of-the-tuareg-veiled-people-of-the-hoggar-mountains-algeria-105345472.html

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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I too believe the Afalou and Marusian fossil samples contain specimens of European extraction. Hence, why some of the skeletal bodies show cold adaptation. The same can be said about some of the Natufian samples which show the same thing, however one cannot deny the unmistakable African traits also found in samples of both groups.

Dj, what is your opinion on these sources?

quote:
"we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.

[...]

A rare exception is the work by Abbé Roche at Contrebandiers Cave (Témara) and at Grotte des Pigeons (Taforalt) where a series of conventional 14C dates was obtained for Iberomaurusian layers (Roche 1976). Until now, his dates of 21,900±400 bp (Gif-2587) and 21,100±400 bp (Gif-2586) for Taforalt have stood as the oldest for Morocco and are broadly comparable to the lowermost Iberomaurusian layer at Tamar Hat, Algeria which produced an age of 20,600±500 bp (MC-822; Saxon et al. 1974).

[...]

In concluding this brief review it can be inferred on present evidence that microlithic bladelet industries of Iberomaurusian type made a fairly sudden appearance in this part of Africa soon after the LGM and not quite as early as previously asserted by Roche. However, it remains to be seen whether the technology originated in the Maghreb or outside this region, and whether its abrupt appearance can be linked to wider patterns of demic diffusion across areas north of the Sahara and/or in response to rapid climatic change (in this case to a rise in humidity following the LGM). We believe that in order to investigate this question more fully similar studies to the one outlined here will need to be conducted in adjacent areas of the Maghreb and in the Saharan south of Morocco."

--A. Bouzouggar, et al.

Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
June 2008, Volume 25, Issue 1, pp 3–19

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-008-9023-3


quote:
The research agenda on North African prehistory is dominated by three major debates: (1) the timing and dispersal routes of modern humans into the region, and whether particular types of lithic assemblage are reliable indicators of their presence (Cremaschi et al., 1998, Mercier et al., 2007, Smith et al., 2007, Garcea, 2010a, Garcea, 2011, Pereira et al., 2010, Wengler, 2010, Hublin and McPherron, 2011 and Dibble et al., 2012); (2) how successfully, once established, modern human populations were able to adapt to the major climatic and environmental changes of the Late Pleistocene (Barton et al., 2005, Barton et al., 2007, Bouzouggar et al., 2008 and Garcea, 2010b); and (3) the timing and routes of dispersal of plant and animal domesticates in the Early Holocene and the contexts of their use (i.e., by the existing populations of hunter–gatherers and/or by immigrant agricultural populations) (Barker, 2006, Linstädter, 2008 and Dunne et al., 2012). The deep (∼14 m) sequence excavated by Charles McBurney in the 1950s in the Haua Fteah cave in Cyrenaica, northeast Libya (22°3′5″E/32°53′70″N; Fig. 1) has long been central to all three debates because it spanned the Middle and Late Stone Ages (or Middle and Upper Palaeolithic in European terminology), and the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. In fact, the sequence remains unique for the whole of North Africa east of the Maghreb (McBurney, 1967). However, though in many respects the excavations and subsequent analyses of material were pioneering for their time, techniques in cave excavation, deep-time radiometric dating and archaeological science more generally have all been transformed in the ensuing sixty years; the context for the renewal of fieldwork at the site in 2007 (Barker et al., 2007, Barker et al., 2008, Barker et al., 2009, Barker et al., 2010 and Barker et al., 2012). Here we report the initial results of a comprehensive dating program of the geological and cultural sequences that has been one of the primary objectives of the new project.
--Katerina Douka et al.

The chronostratigraphy of the Haua Fteah cave (Cyrenaica, northeast Libya)

Journal of Human Evolution
January 2014, Vol.66:39–63, doi:10.1016/j.jhevol.2013.10.001

quote:

"El Harhoura 2 and El Mnasra caves are located in the region of Témara, on the Atlantic coast of Morocco, which was occupied by human populations since the beginning of the Late Pleistocene (around 120 ka BP) until the Middle Holocene (around 6 ka BP). Recent excavations yielded human and faunal remains, as well as exceptional archaeological objects (Middle, Upper Palaeolithic and Neolithic industries; ceramics; ornaments in Nassarius sp. shells; bone tools; pigments) associated with anthropic structures. The continuous sedimentary sequence of these sites covers the last climatic cycle (from the Eemian interglacial to the present one), and is studied in a renewed context from several points of view: geology, stratigraphy, chronology, cultures, anthropology, palaeontology, taphonomy, and zooarchaeology. Today, there is no equivalent of such regional data for the whole Late Pleistocene in North Africa. The study of small and large faunal remains, associated with chronological data, allowed us to obtain significant data on palaeoenvironments and human/carnivore occupations of the Témara caves. These data are included in a broader view of human occupations and their environmental context throughout North Africa during the Late Pleistocene and Holocene."

--Emmanuelle Stoetzel et al.

Context of modern human occupations in North Africa: Contribution of the Témara caves data

Quaternary International
23 January 2014, Vol.320:143–161, doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2013.05.017
Northwest African prehistory: Recent work, new results and interpretations

As I've always said, there is NOTHING to indicate that the Oranian/Iberomarusian culture originated from anywhere else but Africa, I merely think that there was some Eurasian genetic influnce via Iberia the same way African genetic influence from the Maghreb entered Iberia.
Their cold adapted limbs tell a different story.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008558

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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ It's likely those jet-black Tuareg belong to the serf and slave castes. But regardless, even the lighter-skinned ruling castes are not exactly the white or even off-white 'Caucasians' many Euronuts fantasize about. But you are correct that an untold thousands of Europeans especially women were imported into North Africa during the Ummayad Empire.

nope, I personally know black Kel tamashek who are nobles. But this is the difference between actually going to or living in Africa and relying in second hand sources. Now it is a fact a lot of white and tan tamashek are lower class and slaves. Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.i personally know descendants of slave fulani of white ancestry
How can we arranged for them to get Genetic testing?
I will work toward providing the kits if you can give me countries of origin.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed
You could post your own picture. lol
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I agree with this assessment as well, though I am curious as to the details of your blogpost.

I feel like I'm ahead of a lot of things that I want to record before someone else beats me to it. Then I like to sit back and watch the literature catch up. [Cool]

I have more than one blogpost draft waiting to be published. But it takes time to put your own ideas down in an organized way along with sources. Sometimes you find more supporting evidence as you're writing things down.

I think you'll be interested in this one that's upcoming.

You are basically writing books, and that does take time.

Why not truly publish in e-pub?

Thanks.

Is epub a publishing platform? I always thought it was a file format, like .pdf or .docx.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ It's likely those jet-black Tuareg belong to the serf and slave castes. But regardless, even the lighter-skinned ruling castes are not exactly the white or even off-white 'Caucasians' many Euronuts fantasize about. But you are correct that an untold thousands of Europeans especially women were imported into North Africa during the Ummayad Empire.

nope, I personally know black Kel tamashek who are nobles. But this is the difference between actually going to or living in Africa and relying in second hand sources. Now it is a fact a lot of white and tan tamashek are lower class and slaves. Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.i personally know descendants of slave fulani of white ancestry
How can we arranged for them to get Genetic testing?
I will work toward providing the kits if you can give me countries of origin.

look up the Omar Shomarka, he qoutes tests on Tamshek and fulani and talks about their admixture. No need to reinvent the wheel man.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed
Yes, they do. But, again they descend from european slaves.
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Swenet
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So, in North Africa, anything 'white' descends from European slaves, anything 'black' never has any recent admixture from Sub-Saharan Africa and is always indigenous? But when someone offers to test you not only cop out, but refer to genetics papers that debunk you? But then you still want to latch onto unsubstantiated claims (see above) that aren't supported by your own 'sources'.

Is this some kind of joke?

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Swenet
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No more "I heard", "my friends tell me" and "I've visited Africa, you didn't". We want to see data that doesn't require anyone to take someone else's word for it.

Just like no one has to take my word for it when I post data showing that "pure modern day Maghrebi 'blacks'" is a myth:

 -

Please stop spreading this "light skin is European slaves but dark skin is pure blacks" myth here. It's not going to work.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I agree with this assessment as well, though I am curious as to the details of your blogpost.

I feel like I'm ahead of a lot of things that I want to record before someone else beats me to it. Then I like to sit back and watch the literature catch up. [Cool]

I have more than one blogpost draft waiting to be published. But it takes time to put your own ideas down in an organized way along with sources. Sometimes you find more supporting evidence as you're writing things down.

I think you'll be interested in this one that's upcoming.

You are basically writing books, and that does take time.

Why not truly publish in e-pub?

Thanks.

Is epub a publishing platform? I always thought it was a file format, like .pdf or .docx.

It is indeed a file format, but it read easy like a book, in ebook platforms.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed
Yes, they do. But, again they descend from european slaves.
At what region do they reside?
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
No more "I heard", "my friends tell me" and "I've visited Africa, you didn't". We want to see data that doesn't require anyone to take someone else's word for it.

Just like no one has to take my word for it when I post data showing that "pure modern day Maghrebi 'blacks'" is a myth:

 -

Please stop spreading this "light skin is European slaves but dark skin is pure blacks" myth here. It's not going to work.

How do Yorubas represent other African populations from the Sahel, Sahara or even sub Sahara in distance?
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It is indeed a file format, but it read easy like a book, in ebook platforms.

I see what you mean now.

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
How do Yorubas represent other African populations from the Sahel, Sahara or even sub Sahara in distance?

What about that treemix graph makes you object that Yorubas didn't cause that admixure by themselves? The graph doesn't say that.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
How do Yorubas represent other African populations from the Sahel, Sahara or even sub Sahara in distance?

What about that treemix graph makes you object that Yorubas didn't cause that admixure by themselves? The graph doesn't say that.
I am asking because they often use the Yoruba as the representative group for all of sub Sahara Africans. What I meant is (was) why they use them specifically.


I had to look up the paper, to get a better understanding of that treemix.


"We constructed trees that infer population relationships using TreeMix [62]. This method estimates both population splits and the possibility of population mixture.

First, we build a maximum-likelihood tree setting the position of the root at the Yoruba (Figure 4B). South Moroccans and Saharawi appear close to Yoruba while Egyptians are on a branch leading to Middle Easterners and Basque.

Next, we set TreeMix to allow migration edges (m) and test by increasing m sequentially up to m = 20. The initial tree structure remains mostly unchanged when migration edges are added. All North Africans except Tunisians appear admixed from an ancestral population to Yoruba.

[...]

All North Africans except Tunisians appear to be a mixture of populations related to Yoruba and Eurasians (Basque and Lebanese Christians). Tunisians, Yoruba, Basque, and Lebanese Christians appear to be related to other groups by a simple tree implying a history of divergence without subsequent mixture."

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Ish Geber
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Redirecting link.

Recent historical migrations have shaped the gene pool of Arabs and Berbers in North



Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry.

Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods, such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995).

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Swenet
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The source of the red and orange arrows that point to the Maghrebi samples is not at the tip of the Yoruba sample. Therefore, one cannot read that treemix graphic as saying that only Yorubans contributed to that admixture.

The arrows come out of the treemix tree, near the Yoruba sample. Not out of the Yoruba sample. Big difference.

If you look at Maghrebi mtDNAs and Y DNAs with a southern origin, you'll see why. As we've discussed many times recently, we can't accurately model the African ancestry in Maghrebis with only YRI:

quote:
We use a Bantu-speaking population from Kenya as a source population for this migration, as North African individuals with sub-Saharan ancestry appeared to be closer to the Luhya than the Nigerian Yoruba (Figure 1, Figure 2 and Figure S2). However, there are likely other western African populations genetically similar to Kenyan Bantu-speakers. We do not interpret this association as an explicit migration from Kenya to southern Morocco.
—Henn et al 2012
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Doug M
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The point is they should sample populations in West Africa closer to the Sahara and Sahel who have known historic links via trade and travel with Northern Afrca. Why no samples from Senegal, Mali, Southern Mauritania,Chad, Niger and so forth? Obviously there has always been migration beck and forth between the Sahara and areas to the South.

However, like I mentioned previously, without comprehensive DNA samples across all the populations within the Sahel and to the South you won't get an accurate picture. The populations in the Sahara are too small and scattered and have always been to rely on 'stand in' populations from far off places who have no known historic connection to said populations.

Case in point, what is the relationship between Saharan Tuareg DNA and folks like the Hausa who are well known traders with the Tuareg (the indigo turbans worn by the Tuareg came from Kano)? Not to mention the historical boundaries of the Hausa and Kanem empires straddle the Sahara, Sahel and areas to the south into West Africa.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-dyers-idUSL2668533920070426

In fact the Chad basin has historically been a key bridge between the Sahara, East Africa, West Africa and Central Africa.
 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CentralEastAfrica1750.png

Chad basin map:
 -

Recall the infamous Henn paper from 2012 "Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations" where they skipped over the Chad area and Sahel region and focused on samples along the coast and then thousands of miles away in Nigeria. This is intentional. They don't want to sample these intermediate populations since the Chad basin is an ancient refuge for populations during the drying Sahara period and a nexus for populations moving into other parts of Africa.

 -
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Genetic_studies_on_Hausa


Tuareg man:
 -

Hausa Durbar:
 -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasho

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Swenet
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That's like Euronuts saying "we can prove Basal Eurasian is native to Europe if we 'get lucky' and sample some previously unsampled population in southern Europe". That's some open-ended wishful Euronut thinking that can't be falsified and is scientifically useless.

There is no "hidden population" waiting to be discovered among the African groups you mentioned, either, since we already understand these folks' history and genetic composition. In this case, more of the same is not necessarily better. It may be better in terms of fine-tuning, but not in terms of upsetting the entire narrative we have. Of course, if you're talking about people who are extinct today or linguistic isolates and poorly studied, you have a point.

But the Hausa, like all Chadic speakers, mainly have varying proportions of Nilo-Saharan, West African and 'Afroasiatic' affinities. Any deviation from this will simply be due to admixture from a surrounding population. If you're waiting for a Hausa sample with mysterious affinities that can't be explained by admixture you're wasting your time. That's not how this works.

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Swenet
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Including new Sahelian samples with known affinities you get, well.. known affinities.

 -

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the lioness,
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http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009537

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716304487

quote:


excerpts:

Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations

Marc Haber1, , , Massimo Mezzavilla1, 2, Anders Bergström1, Javier Prado-Martinez1, Pille Hallast1, 3, Riyadh Saif-Ali4, Molham Al-Habori4, George Dedoussis5, Eleftheria Zeggini1, Jason Blue-Smith6, 10, R. Spencer Wells7, Yali Xue1, Pierre A. Zalloua8, 9, Chris Tyler-Smith1, ,
Show more
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2016.10.012


Understanding human genetic diversity in Africa is important for interpreting the evolution of all humans, yet vast regions in Africa, such as Chad, remain genetically poorly investigated. Here, we use genotype data from 480 samples from Chad, the Near East, and southern Europe, as well as whole-genome sequencing from 19 of them, to show that many populations today derive their genomes from ancient African-Eurasian admixtures. We found evidence of early Eurasian backflow to Africa in people speaking the unclassified isolate Laal language in southern Chad and estimate from linkage-disequilibrium decay that this occurred 4,750–7,200 years ago. It brought to Africa a Y chromosome lineage [R1b-V88] whose closest relatives are widespread in present-day Eurasia; we estimate from sequence data that the Chad R1b-V88 Y chromosomes coalesced 5,700–7,300 years ago. This migration could thus have originated among Near Eastern farmers during the African Humid Period. We also found that the previously documented Eurasian backflow into Africa, which occurred ∼3,000 years ago and was thought to be mostly limited to East Africa, had a more westward impact affecting populations in northern Chad, such as the Toubou, who have 20%–30% Eurasian ancestry today. We observed a decline in heterozygosity in admixed Africans and found that the Eurasian admixture can bias inferences on their coalescent history and confound genetic signals from adaptation and archaic introgression.

________

We detected the earliest Eurasian migrations to Africa in the Laal-speaking people, an isolated language group of fewer than 800 speakers who inhabit southern Chad. We estimate that mixture occurred 4,750–7,200 ya, thus after the Neolithic transition in the Near East, a period characterized by exponential growth in human population size.

_________

The closest related Y chromosome groups today are widespread in Eurasia and have been previously associated with human expansions to Europe.39 and 40 We estimate that the Eurasian R1b lineages initially diverged 7,300–9,400 ya, at the time of the Neolithic expansions. However, we found that the African and Eurasian R1b lineages diverged 17,900–23,000 ya, suggesting that genetic structure was already established between the groups who expanded to Europe and Africa. R1b-V88 was previously found in Central and West Africa and was associated with a mid-Holocene migration of Afro-asiatic speakers through the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin.8 In the populations we examined, we found R1b in the Toubou and Sara, who speak Nilo-Saharan languages, and also in the Laal people, who speak an unclassified language. This suggests that R1b penetrated Africa independently of the Afro-asiatic language spread or passed to other groups through admixture.

_____________


In addition to the early Eurasian migration to Africa ∼6,000 ya, a second migration ∼3,000 ya affected the Toubou population in northern Chad but had no detectable genetic impact on other Chadian populations. This migration appears to be associated with the previously reported Eurasian backflow into East Africa, given that the source populations and dates of mixture are similar. Occurring at the start of the Iron Age, these migrations could have been facilitated by advances in warfare and transportation technology in the Near East. It is uncertain why the impact of this migration in Chad affected only the Toubou.



This 20-30% Eurasian ancestry of the Toubou is similar in percentage to African Americans but from different sources and time periods. Numbering about 0.5 million over four countries they are not berbers They speak the Tebu languages, in the Saharan branch of the Nilo-Saharan language family.

As per the Tuareg:

 -


^ The lowest estimate is 2000 in Tunisia, 1987

The population of Tuareg in Chad is lower than that and didn't make it to this chart. In Southern Libya where the Tuareg and Toubou are in military conflict as we can see in the videos in the thread

Libya's Quiet War: The Tuareg of South Libya

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009550

We can see comparatively that the Turaeg look part Eurasian while the Toubou look virtually entirely African.
The two groups have different DNA. The Turaeg have E-M81 and high frequencies of mtDNA Haplogroup H but which has higher diversity outside of Africa and is believed to have originated in Anatolia or Near East and is the most common mtDNA haplgroup in Europe.
The Toubou on the other hand carry mtDNA L. They have a reverse situation. Their Y DNA is R1b.
Often one can predict the phenotype to an extent corresponding to phenotype.
However this branch of R1b called V88 or R1b1c is peculiar in that R1b is all over Europe yet the Africans of the R1b1c clade aka V88 don't resemble Europeans at all.
Perhaps several thousand years ago when a Eurasian back flow of R1b is believed to have occurred they did look more like the mixed looking Libyan Tuareg but since then now look entirely Africa.
The Tuareg are nomadic and thus look more varied. The lower caste Bella are in fact the largest part of the Tuareg population.
The ancestry in the region is very complex and varied.
The most African looking Tuareg are in Niger, the country with by far the largest Tuareg population. If one is looking for "black amazigh" that is a good place to start

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