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Author Topic: DNA studies if black amazigh im Morocco
typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed
Yes, they do. But, again they descend from european slaves.
At what region do they reside?
Burkina Faso
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
No more "I heard", "my friends tell me" and "I've visited Africa, you didn't". We want to see data that doesn't require anyone to take someone else's word for it.

Just like no one has to take my word for it when I post data showing that "pure modern day Maghrebi 'blacks'" is a myth:

 -

Please stop spreading this "light skin is European slaves but dark skin is pure blacks" myth here. It's not going to work.

*sigh* Read history, try starting with Ibn Hawqal who says the indigenous population is black. Pinly The elder also describes black populations in north africa as does herodotus. You don't have to take my word for anything. Only thing genetics tells you who what people have been mixed with. Doesnt tell you how it got there, when or who was there first. That is where knowing the histories of these locations and what local populations say of themselves. It is a fact that Africa imported MILLIONS of whites, and I mean MILLIONS. You can read christian slaves, mustlim masters, and white slaves, african masters (two separate books) for that info.
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Swenet
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So? Some of those same Arab authors said Egyptian Cops were 'black'. Presumably, these Copts were more consistently light brown back then, making it easier for Al-Jahiz to generalize this entire community as lighter skinned 'blacks'. Such a description obviously doesn't apply anymore to Copts in general. Can we say based on this description that any dark skinned man in modern Egypt owes his dark skin to those medieval Copts? Of course not. There have been all sort of darker skinned communities in Egypt since then, including recently migrated Nubians. It's no different in the Maghreb.

Those descriptions of medieval and Greek authors don't have a straightforward relevancy to all dark skin in the Maghreb today as modern day Berbers aren't straight forward descendants of the ancient people in the Maghreb.

Someone you describe as a 'black Berber' could have some ancestors with no ties to North Africa. And if you read the same Pliny and other texts you're mentioning, you would know that light skin is more ancient in the Maghreb than Barbary pirates.

So how can you make two convenient checkboxes of 'hybrid partial descendants of European slaves' and 'non hybrid black Berber'?

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sudanese
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Why does it matter if certain light skin populations have resided in the Maghreb for thousands of years? The insistence that there were no Eurasian genetic input on the North African Coast is laughable as is the insistence that all light-skin Berbers are descendants of white slaves during the Barbary period even though 'white' Libyans were portrayed in ancient Egyptian reliefs. This is almost just as inane as the groundless assertion that all black North Africans are descendants of 'sub-Saharan' slaves.

Berbers are a linguistic group - not an ethnic group and it is the language that we should be focused on in regards to culture.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by DD'Eden:
we present the genomic analysis of two human individuals from a cave site in the area of present-day Morocco which were directly dated to the Medieval period. The samples were processed in a designated ancient DNA lab and the genomic data obtained shows standard patterns of authentic ancient DNA with low levels of contamination. Both individuals – which represent the first ancient genome sequence data from North Africa – do not exhibit particular genetic affinities to modern North Africans or any other present-day population in published genotype data sets despite relatively extensive data has been produced from many areas of Africa.

http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/days/2016-07-06/abstract/35210

As shown by ancient DNA from Morocco, there is no validity to the notion that Berber speakers with dark skin owe all of that to being Berber or the reverse: that Berbers are automatically involved when Maghrebi populations with dark skin are described by the ancients.

Dark skin is not an ancestry tied to any particular group of people. It's a level of pigmentation. It's impossible to identify Berber ancestry by grouping North Africans visually based on skin color.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Now it is a fact a lot of white and tan tamashek are lower class and slaves. Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.i personally know descendants of slave fulani of white ancestry [/QB]

As per European slaves in North Africa they were primarily acquired by the Ottomans and Moroccans as a result of pirating ships (male crews) and raiding of coastal European towns by ship (men, women, children) and the Ottoman trade of Central Asian and Eastern European slaves. The high estimate is 1-1.25 million.
Many of these Europeans would return to their former countries.
I have heard of Fulani slave trading but never of European slaves.
I assume they would be hard to acquire and not very available to them, so if it happened, I would guess it was very rare

Also:
The Abbasid caliphs of Baghdad unwittingly create a group of considerable power in the Middle East. To strengthen their armies, they acquire slaves from the nomadic Turks of central Asia. These slaves, who become known as Mamelukes (from the Arabic mamluk, 'owned'), distinguish themselves in the service of the caliphate and are often given positions of military responsibility. Well placed to advance their own interests, they frequently take the opportunity.

The first Mameluke to seize extensive power is Ahmad ibn Tulun. In the early 870s he takes control of Egypt. By 877 he has conquered the Mediterranean coast through Palestine and up into Syria.



This first Mameluke dynasty lasts only a few decades, until 905. But the Mamelukes retain their importance and power throughout the Middle East. They have the natural strength of a small, self-aware military elite. They speak their own Turkish language in addition to the Arabic of their official masters (the weak caliphs in Baghdad, whose rule technically extends throughout the Muslim Middle East). And they constantly replenish their numbers with new recruits from the fierce tribes of central Asia and the Caucasus.

The height of Mameluke power begins in 1250, when they again seize control of Egypt. Ten years later they confront the Mongols.


Read more: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=exc#ixzz4UHHf4rQj

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Including new Sahelian samples with known affinities you get, well.. known affinities.

 -

The point is there should be a gradient of overlapping gene pools from the Sahara into West Africa and not some abrupt split from "North Africans" to "Sub Saharan" Africans. Populations along and within the Sahel should be intermediate to Eurasians and West Africans, assuming mixture during historic periods. Yet even with that they should also retain older ancestral indigenous African ancestry.

My issue is that their sample sets are designed to promote a narrative of North African populations being "isolates" and separate genetically from the rest of Africa. By not sampling those populations spread thinly across the Sahara and Sahel they are purposely selecting data that reinforces that notion. Case in point, if you sample all the populations in Libya from the coasts all the way down to the Southern regions, you will see a lot more genetic diversity than what is implied by the current sample sets, which tries to fit all Libyans into one population cluster genetically. The problem is all the populations in Libya DON'T fit into the same population cluster. The populations nearer to the coast have more Eurasian ancestry as would be expected and the ones in the South have more African ancestry as again would be expected, due to less Eurasian mixture. That pattern applies across all of the countries bordering the Mediterranean including Egypt. Obviously slavery has nothing to do with the presence of these Africans in the southern areas, but that is exactly what they keep trying to imply and suggest..... which is the dumbest and most racist nonsense that they keep spewing in these studies.

Note the data set used in the latest study

quote:

Population |# |Dataset
Luhya Kenya |25|HapMap
Yoruba Nigeria |25|HapMap
Morocco North |18|Henn et al. 2012
Morocco South |16|Henn et al. 2012
Moroccan Berbers,
Errachidia |14|Current study
Moroccan Berbers,
Tiznit |14|Current study
Occidental Sahara |18|Henn et al. 2012
Algerian, Alger |19|Henn et al. 2012
Algerian Berbers
Timimoun |20|Current study
Algerian Mozabites |29|HGDP
Tunisia Berbers Chenini |18|Henn et al. 2012
Tunisian Berbers, Sened |17|Current study
Libya |17|Henn et al. 2012
Egypt |19|Henn et al. 2012
Bedouin, Jordan |25|HGDP
Druze, Israel |25|HGDP
Palestinian |25|HGDP
Qatar |25|Hunter-Zinck et al. 2010
Lebanon |24|Haber et al. 2012
Syria |19|Current study
Canary Islands |17|Botigué et al. 2013
Andalusian, Spain |17|Botigué et al. 2013
Galician, Spain |17|Botigué et al. 2013
Basque, Spain |20|Henn et al. 2012
Tuscan, Italy |25|HapMap
European in Utah |25|HapMap

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/suppl/2016/10/15/msw218.DC1/Arauna2016R2_Supplementary_Information_molbiolevol.pdf
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Case in point, if you sample all the populations in Libya from the coasts all the way down to the Southern regions, you will see a lot more genetic diversity than what is implied by the current sample sets, which tries to fit all Libyans into one population cluster genetically. The problem is all the populations in Libya DON'T fit into the same population cluster. The populations nearer to the coast have more Eurasian ancestry as would be expected and the ones in the South have more African ancestry

Doug makes a lot of claims but he never has the genetics data from articles to back it up.


 -

^^ this is the population density of Africa.

Let's look at Brazil for comparison. Native Brazilians comprise less than a half of one percent of the population. Somebody might say " well what about the people deep in the Amazon rainforest, why didn't they include them in the sample?"
You can include them in the sample.
But if talk about the average in Brazil they comprise less than one percent. So it doesn't matter how many remote region you go to and take samples, that population is tiny compared to Europeans and Africans.

People seem to not understand demographics. You can sample every group in all the remote regions of a country, that does not change the compound genetic averages for the country or region.

And
if we look at the YDNA of the berbers in the Maghreb, North Africa it is largely E-M81 and that is not common in Sub Saharan Africa, neither is the most common berber mtDNA, haplogroup H. So there is a notable genetic difference in most berbers.
Are there some berbers who have more SSA lineage, yes. But they are not enough in number to say that North Africans are no different genetically from SSA Africans

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Swenet
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@Doug

The way I see it, is that there is affinity due to admixture and affinity due to phylogenetic relatedness. The former involves plain admixture, the latter has to do with how long ago ancestral populations split off.

The affinity you're talking about between the Sahel and the Maghreb is affinity due to admixture. The affinity between, say, Afro-Caribbeans and African Americans is phylogenetic affinity. African Americans and Afro Caribbeans don't need admixture to be closely related. They are already closely related whether they intermix or not.

The same doesn't apply to Sahelian populations and Maghrebis. While Sahelian populations like the Tibbou may be related to Berbers, the two genetic components in their genome (mostly 'Nilo-Saharan-like' and 'Berber-like') have no close relationship. The source populations they're made up of are structurally different (i.e. they have completely different allele frequencies and certain patterns in their genomes).

This is why scholars use proxies when they want to understand Berber populations. They're not interested in sampling the entire Sahara. They just want to sample the source populations that can model populations in the Sahara.

You want them to go the extra mile and also sample admixed population in the Sahel that carry ancestry from the source populations. That's just redundant. Why would they want to do that? It would be nice if they did from our point of view, but it's not a requirement for what they set out to do.

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Djehuti
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^ North Africa just like Arabia has gone through periods of wet phases as well as dry phases with populations retreating and returning with the respective phases. Some of the retreating populations were to find refugia in the eastern part of North Africa it was the Nile Valley while in the Maghreb it was moister mountain valleys and coasts. Obviously bottlenecks with founder effect events is what happened as well as later admixture. This is why the best DNA samples should come from ancient remains moreso than modern populations who only represent a fraction of the ancient genome.

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

So? Some of those same Arab authors said Egyptian Cops were 'black'. Presumably, these Copts were more consistently light brown back then, making it easier for Al-Jahiz to generalize this entire community as lighter skinned 'blacks'. Such a description obviously doesn't apply anymore to Copts in general. Can we say based on this description that any dark skinned man in modern Egypt owes his dark skin to those medieval Copts? Of course not. There have been all sort of darker skinned communities in Egypt since then, including recently migrated Nubians. It's no different in the Maghreb.

Those descriptions of medieval and Greek authors don't have a straightforward relevancy to all dark skin in the Maghreb today as modern day Berbers aren't straight forward descendants of the ancient people in the Maghreb.

Someone you describe as a 'black Berber' could have some ancestors with no ties to North Africa. And if you read the same Pliny and other texts you're mentioning, you would know that light skin is more ancient in the Maghreb than Barbary pirates.

So how can you make two convenient checkboxes of 'hybrid partial descendants of European slaves' and 'non hybrid black Berber'?

Precisely the point of my initial post in this thread. How the hell can you tell which populations let alone individuals best represent the original population by 'dark skin' alone.

My point about the Khoisan peoples is that a similar complexion was probably held by the aboriginal peoples of the Maghreb, though we can't say unless DNA for skin color is sequenced. We know from skeletal remains that on average the Oranian/Iberomarusians were similar in appearance to Cromagnon except that they had greater interorbital width, larger nasal openings, and more prognathous. Such features are typically associated with so-called "negroids" but they differed in other measurements from modern day Sub-Saharans which group them closer to upper paleolithic Eurasians like Cromagnon. My guess is that they represent an early split from OOA ancestors like Hofmeyer in Southern Africa.

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sudanese
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With the exception of the Siwa... the Tuaregs, Zenata and Sanhaja reside in the Maghreb and so I assume that they are sampled in these studies just as much as the Coastal Berbers.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
With the exception of the Siwa... the Tuaregs, Zenata and Sanhaja reside in the Maghreb and so I assume that they are sampled in these studies just as much as the Coastal Berbers.

The Sanhaja/Zenatta are from the Middle Atlas a little bit East of Oazzane, Morocco


 -

^ That is around the orange Saharan labeled area to the right of the light purple Tamazight speakers. They are quite far from the main Tuareg region in blue. Notably the Tuareg are not this huge group in comparison to other berbers but their territories are much more spread out

Comparatively Algeria is also coastal but extends further south and into the interior where the Tuareg are. There are some Zenata there at the oasis town Timimoun, a little closer to the Northern reaches of the Tuareg region


quote:

The inhabitants of Timimoun have varied ancestry and include Zenata Berbers, Haratine Berbers, Cha'amba Arabs and Black Africans, the latter who were brought here with the slave trade that flourished between the 16th and 19th century. Zenata Berbers have an ancient history and were the founders of a number of Berber kingdoms, empires and princedoms in the North African countries of Algeria, Morocco, Libya and Tunisia. 14th century North African historian Ibn Khaldun asserts that the Zenata, Senhaja and Masmuda were the three main branches of Berbers from medieval times. Concentrated in the area he referred to as 'Middle Maghreb' Zenata tribes were both nomadic and sedentary, with the latter building towns and cities where they settled. The Cha'amba, a Sulaymi Arab tribe from Algeria's northern Sahara, were traditionally nomads, but over the past century or so have settled in oasis towns such as Timimoun.



 -


ZENATA

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453

Genetic Heterogeneity in Algerian Human Populations

Asmahan Bekada , Lara R. Arauna , Tahria Deba, Francesc Calafell, Soraya Benhamamouch, David Comas

Published: September 24, 2015


Abstract

The demographic history of human populations in North Africa has been characterized by complex processes of admixture and isolation that have modeled its current gene pool. Diverse genetic ancestral components with different origins (autochthonous, European, Middle Eastern, and sub-Saharan) and genetic heterogeneity in the region have been described. In this complex genetic landscape, Algeria, the largest country in Africa, has been poorly covered, with most of the studies using a single Algerian sample. In order to evaluate the genetic heterogeneity of Algeria, Y-chromosome, mtDNA and autosomal genome-wide makers have been analyzed in several Berber- and Arab-speaking groups. Our results show that the genetic heterogeneity found in Algeria is not correlated with geography or linguistics, challenging the idea of Berber groups being genetically isolated and Arab groups open to gene flow. In addition, we have found that external sources of gene flow into North Africa have been carried more often by females than males, while the North African autochthonous component is more frequent in paternally transmitted genome regions. Our results highlight the different demographic history revealed by different markers and urge to be cautious when deriving general conclusions from partial genomic information or from single samples as representatives of the total population of a region.


The Zenata population, also called Zenet or Iznaten, is an ethnic Berber group in North Africa that is spread from Libya to Morocco. They speak a Berber dialect called Zenet or Zetani, which have some similitude with other Berber dialects. The Zenata individuals sampled are residents in the city of Timimoun, a little oasis village in Adrar Province, in the Gourara region (West Algerian Sahara).

Some sub-Saharan lineages, such as E1b1a-M2, are present at non-negligible frequencies in some samples, such as the Zenata (~23%), whereas some European lineages such as R1-M173 are non-uniformly represented in the present sample set (standard deviation = 16.306). Haplogroup diversity in the Reguibate and the Mozabite was the lowest compared to the other Algerian samples (S2 Table). It is noteworthy that the lowest haplogroup diversity is not related to the current ethnolinguistic affiliation, with some Berber groups such as the Zenata presenting high haplogroup diversities whereas some non-Berber groups such as the Reguibate showing low haplogroup diversity.


Mitochondrial DNA Analysis.

An admixture of Eurasian, North African, and sub-Saharan African mtDNA lineages is found in all Algerian samples (S4 Table and S5 Table) as shown in other North African populations [15]. Sub-Saharan lineages were remarkably frequent in the Zenata (L lineages represent ~65%) compared to the rest of the Algerian samples. In particular, West African lineages (such as L1b, L2a, L2b, L2c1, L3b, L3d) add up to over 40% in the Zenata population, but the East African haplogroups (such as L0, L4b2) do not exceed 3.5% in the Zenata or in any of the other Algerian samples. It is also worth to note that the North African mtDNA haplogroup U6 is absent from the Algiers sample and it is only present in one Zenata individual, while it reaches 8.3–28.2% in other Algerian samples. Finally, M1, another North African lineage, is not found in the Zenata sample.


The Mozabites show the highest North African ancestry, as expected from its position in the PCA, and also contain very low admixture with Middle Eastern, European or sub-Saharan ancestral populations. In contrast, the Zenata individuals present high variation due to differential sub-Saharan admixture, in agreement with the results shown in the PCA. The North African component in this Zenata sample is not as frequent as in the Mozabites (the mean frequencies in the populations are 0.348 and 0.823 respectively), and the former also contain more admixture from the Middle East.


The absence of the maternal North African component in these groups, especially the Zenata Berbers, might be explained by extensive genetic drift and the remarkable high frequency of sub-Saharan lineages (~23% for the Y-chromosome E-M2 haplogroup and ~ 65% of mtDNA L lineages) in the Zenata sample. Our autosomal analysis also shows the close position of the Zenata group to the sub-Saharan populations, and the high variance in this sub-Saharan ancestry suggest that this group has experienced recent gene flow.


Our results demonstrate that Berber groups are not systematically isolated and closed, such as the Zenata who show a different genetic profile compared to the Mozabites, already known to be an isolated Berber group [18]. Their different genetic profiles reflect probably the notion of an open versus close lifestyle towards the outsiders in their so-called isolated populations. Although the Mozabites are descendants of the Zenata Berber group in North Africa, nowadays, the majority of the Mozabites form an isolated Ibadi Muslim group in Algeria. The Ibadi form of Islam evolved from the 7th century Islamic group known as the Kharijites in Irak. They reached Algeria and found a refuge within the isolated group of the Mozabites [51,52]. Although both Zenata and Mozabite Berber groups are geographically close, their different genetic profiles suggest that Mozabites have been more isolated and received less gene flow than the Zenata, who show more admixture not only with sub-Saharan but also with Middle Eastern populations when analyzing autosomal markers. Although the Zenata was the major Berber group in North Africa, their presence in Algeria in present days is restricted to the city of Timimoun, which has been known by its slave population called the Haratines, dark-skinned people, who lived with the Zenata in the ksours of the Gourara (Timimoun region) and learned from them the Berber language and became freed Muslims [53]. On the other hand, Arab groups can be isolated, such as the present example of the Reguibate that shows the lowest paternal haplogroup diversity with the Mozabites. The Reguibate population might have experienced some genetic drift or a genetic founder effect that altered its unilinear lineage frequencies. Indeed, the Reguibate show the highest frequency of the North African component for both Y chromosome (E-M81) and mtDNA (U6a), after the Mozabite.


The overall ancestral proportion of admixture components within populations considering mitochondrial and Y-chromosome haplogroups and autosomal markers reflects a similar history of gene flow at the population level. However, the comparison of the different genetic markers at individual level reflects differences as a result of the difference inheritance models of each marker. This discrepancy can be seen in present example of the Zenata sample where these markers were tested in each individual (S2 Fig). It is clearly shown that there is no correlation between the ancestral component origin of the mitochondrial and the Y-chromosome haplogroup in each individual. For example, some individuals show a typical sub-Saharan maternal haplogroup and a North African paternal one. Autosomal analysis can also provide different distribution of ancestral components that is not related to the origin of the uniparental haplogroups. The analysis of different regions of our genome might provide different insides in the population history of the samples under study, thus allowing a wider combining vision of the ancestral histories stored in each marker.

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Askia_The_Great
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Aye.. Sorry AGAIN Swenet for this VERY late reply. I'm in Ethiopia right now and as you may have heard wife/internet is banned and so I have to hop from bar to bar to use wife.

Anyways...


quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Yes. E-M81 didn't exist yet during the first Iberomaurusian migrations; only its precursors (E-Z827 and E-V257) would have existed. If this paternal line is indeed associated with the first Iberomaurusians, E-M81 has to emerge in the Maghreb. This is because the Iberomaurusian industry is confined to the Maghrebi 'coast' unlike the Aterian and Capsian.

quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Also people always assume that the Siwa are not "true Berbers" because their men do not carry E-M81, but now it seems that Maghreb Berbers may not be the "true Berbers." Am I making sense? Have Siwa Berber men ever been detected of carrying E-M35? I know I am asking a complicated question.

Yes, they're not like the first Berbers biologically. Ideally, we should make a distinction between Berbers in a biological sense and Berbers in a linguistic sense. Just like we should make a distinction between the first Iberomaurusians and the much later Afalou and Taforalt samples.

The Siwa Berbers have E-M35. For instance, the 2nd highest frequency of E-M35 they have is E-V65. As I've said earlier, this is, in my view, an important marker of the first Berber speakers.

quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I never heard the bolded before. Again VERY game changing for me... I always assumed the Nile Valley and Maghreb were always divorced from other another i.e Maghreb clades like U6 and E-M81 hardly being found in the Nile Valley. Anyways all in all are you saying the FIRST people of the Iberomaurusian industry had affinities with those from the Nile Valley, but they were soon absorbed by migrating Eurasians?

Pennarun talks about the close relationship between the Iberomaurusian and certain Nile Valley industries in the part of the paper I brought up earlier. I think you may have missed the fact that Egypt is in the list. Note also that they list Upper Egypt first, meaning, the oldest, in their list of dates.

quote:
Whilst a techno-typological shift occurred within the Dabban ~33 KYA [19], starker changes in the archaeological record occurred throughout North Africa and Southwest Asia ~23-20 KYA, represented by the widespread appearance of backed bladelet technologies. The appearance of these backed bladelet industries more or less coincides with the timing of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) (~23-18 KYA), including: ~21 KYA in Upper Egypt [20]; ~20 KYA at Haua Fteah with the Oranian [21]; the Iberomaurusian expansion in the Jebel Gharbi ~20 KYA [22]; and the first Iberomaurusian at Tamar Hat in Algeria ~20 KYA [23]. The earliest Iberomaurusian sites in Morocco appear to be only slightly younger ~18 KYA [24]. Whilst backed bladelet production is broadly shared across the different regions of North and East Africa, there was also a level of regional cultural diversity during this period, possibly mirroring a diversification of populations.
--Pennarun et al 2012

Yeah, from what I am hearing from you know it makes sense that E-M81 originated in the Maghreb. It makes too much sense as we(like you even said) don't see a important east to west migration with it. And hell before you informed me I noticed a extreme lack of E-M81 in the Nile Valley which SHOULD have given me clues but I ignored it for some reasons.

And I don't know why I did not see Egypt listed. When get back I'll have more time to discuss with you guys in this thread.

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sudanese
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The Berber groups I mentioned still reside in the Maghreb, so I fail to see why their specific area in the Maghreb is even relevant. Why is it that when indigenous black populations are mentioned, certain people immediately feel almost compelled to stress "Sub-Saharan" admixture to explain away their blackness, as though they are out of place in their own Continent -- an absurd and laughable position.


I want the identity of the Coastal Berbers to be subjected to equally stringent critique... even more so considering that Coastal Berbers have predominantly African paternal DNA and have been "admixing" with Eurasians for millennia and it is they that adopted a language and culture that originates in an area [Northeast Africa] from people that would have resembled populations in Northeast Africa, like our dear Beja.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the Tuaregs share a common origin with the Beja of my country, and it is from here that the Berber language and people originate from -- meaning that the black Berbers are the original Berbers. The paternal DNA of the non- black Berbers is apparently predominately African but their maternal DNA is Eurasian, so they are derivatives of the original East Africans [paternally] and their maternal ancestors that came to Africa through the Iberian Peninsula.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

Same for white fulani. They too were slaves at one point.

I would like to see a picture of a white Fulani. I didn't know they existed
Yes, they do. But, again they descend from european slaves.
At what region do they reside?
Burkina Faso
That seems odd. But by white do you mean light complexion, or literally white as a European?

In order for a 'white" population to sustain there, there has to be a considerable about of them being there, in isolation. Especially after many centuries.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Doug

The way I see it, is that there is affinity due to admixture and affinity due to phylogenetic relatedness. The former involves plain admixture, the latter has to do with how long ago ancestral populations split off.

The affinity you're talking about between the Sahel and the Maghreb is affinity due to admixture. The affinity between, say, Afro-Caribbeans and African Americans is phylogenetic affinity. African Americans and Afro Caribbeans don't need admixture to be closely related. They are already closely related whether they intermix or not.

The same doesn't apply to Sahelian populations and Maghrebis. While Sahelian populations like the Tibbou may be related to Berbers, the two genetic components in their genome (mostly 'Nilo-Saharan-like' and 'Berber-like') have no close relationship. The source populations they're made up of are structurally different (i.e. they have completely different allele frequencies and certain patterns in their genomes).

This is why scholars use proxies when they want to understand Berber populations. They're not interested in sampling the entire Sahara. They just want to sample the source populations that can model populations in the Sahara.

You want them to go the extra mile and also sample admixed population in the Sahel that carry ancestry from the source populations. That's just redundant. Why would they want to do that? It would be nice if they did from our point of view, but it's not a requirement for what they set out to do.

That wasn't my point at all. What I am saying is that if you are going to claim 'mixture' as the basis of modern populations in North Africa, then you should sample ALL the relevant populations to see all the different forms of admixture that exist. The point being that North Africa has always been populated by indigenous African groups, carrying various lineages and therefore, the key is identifying these ancient African populations and then distinguishing those from the immigrants, in this case Eurasians. My using these proxies they always give more weight to those populations with higher amounts of Eurasian admixture which they then go on to conclude has always been a primary component of admixture in ALL North Africans which is absolutely false. And then on top of that they try and extrapolate the ancestry of all other North Africans based on this biased sample set which is again flawed. There is no way you are going to come up with an accurate population history with such flawed sample sets. But that is assuming that the goal is an accurate population history. My argument is they don't want an accurate population history, they just want to promote the idea that North Africans have always been separated from other Africans by Eurasian admixture and by proposing that the founding lineages in North Africa came from Eurasia, which is all false.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:


I've said it before and I'll say it again... the Tuaregs share a common origin with the Beja of my country, and it is from here that the Berber language and people originate from -- meaning that the black Berbers are the original Berbers. The paternal DNA of the non- black Berbers is apparently predominately African but their maternal DNA is Eurasian, so they are derivatives of the original East Africans [paternally] and their maternal ancestors that came to Africa through the Iberian Peninsula.

 -
Here is a Beja man. Is he 100% African or is he 20% (or more )percent Eurasian like the average African American? We don't know because there are no DNA studies of the Beja. Regardless by looks he is considered black


The Beja aren't the original berbers because they don't speak aberber language.

If someone were to propose that the original berber speakers looked like Beja they could then also argue people who do not look like Beja are not berbers.
What is a berber? There is no hard definition. One might say a berber is a person of mixed African and Eurasian ancestry and who speaks a berber language.
Somebody else might say the original berber speakers were African with no Eurasian admixture but one cannot prove either theory.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987384/

Published online 2010 Mar 17. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.21
PMCID: PMC2987384
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel

Luísa Pereira, 2010

Abstract
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan. Our study of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and Y chromosome SNPs of three different southern Tuareg groups from Mali, Burkina Faso and the Republic of Niger reveals a West Eurasian-North African composition of their gene pool. The data show that certain genetic lineages could not have been introduced into this population earlier than ∼9000 years ago whereas local expansions establish a minimal date at around 3000 years ago. Some of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Tuareg population were involved in the post-Last Glacial Maximum human expansion from Iberian refugia towards both Europe and North Africa. Interestingly, no Near Eastern mtDNA lineages connected with the Neolithic expansion have been observed in our population sample. On the other hand, the Y chromosome SNPs data show that the paternal lineages can very probably be traced to the Near Eastern Neolithic demic expansion towards North Africa, a period that is otherwise concordant with the above-mentioned mtDNA expansion. The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening ∼10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at ∼6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.


Carrying out biological or genetic investigations of the Tuareg has not always been easy because of their demanding lifestyle and their often negative attitude to the European colonists. Cavalli-Sforza et al,2 whose synthesized study of classical protein and serological markers is well known, noticed a genetic link between the Tuareg and Beja from Eastern Sudan. The fact that the genetic distances between the Tuareg and Berber/North-western Africans were larger than that between the Tuareg and Beja, provides a picture of a common origin and population separation at some point more than 5000 years ago. Interestingly, both people are also pastoralist and speak Afro-Asiatic languages, even if the Beja language (Bedawi), with its four dialects, belongs to the Cushitic branch, whereas Tamasheq belongs to the Berber branch. The fact that these two peoples today speak different languages might be explained either by the Tuareg having acquired the Berber language during their westwards migration, or possibly by the Beja coming under the influence of some Eastern African peoples as language shift is a relatively common phenomenon.


Among the first African mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences were those from data sets3, 4 obtained mostly from Tuareg living in Niger and Nigeria, and which revealed a rather sub-Saharan affinity of their population. More recently, however, a study based on 129 Tuareg samples from two villages of the Libyan Fezzan, stressed a high frequency but concomitant low diversity of the West Eurasian component, bearing only haplogroups H1, V and M1. The sub-Saharan component of the Libyan Tuareg was more diversified but predominantly represented by only two haplogroups (L2a1 and L0a1a). The Tuareg population from Libya was homogenous with very low estimates of haplotype diversity suggesting high genetic drift.5

The above-mentioned studies have thus revealed a dual influence in the genetic make-up of this African people. In this study, we provide new mtDNA and Y chromosome data sets of three unrelated Tuareg groups from three different countries (Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso). At the same time, we try to unravel the questions of their genetic origin, the mutual relationships among their sub-populations as well as possible links to neighbouring populations. The genetic heritage of the Tuareg population is analysed within the context of the West Eurasian versus sub-Saharan contributions to their gene pool.


Relationships with the peoples of Eastern Sudan (the Beja) as pointed to by the study of classical genetic markers2 cannot yet be disregarded here as there is still no mtDNA of the Beja people available for study. However, according to historical reports, the origin of the Beja is more likely to be traceable to the Arabian Peninsula [52] and the West Eurasian mtDNA lineages seen in the Tuareg have a rather Iberian affiliation in the post-LGM, and probably expanded to North Africa first.30, 31 The weak Eastern African influence in Tuareg is further supported by the M1 haplotypes belonging to the lineages characteristic of the later Mediterranean expansion (M1b and M1a2a) and the presence of very few matches for sub-Saharan L haplotypes with East Africa. The main post-LGM Eurasian and M1a2a lineages found in the Tuareg favour North African origin with migration to its southern location in the Sahel between ∼9000 and ∼3000 years ago. The upper time limit is defined by the age of the M1a2a, (estimated here from the coding region diversity observed in the three Tuareg, two North and two south Mediterranean individuals at 8000±2400), and by the upper 95% confidence interval for the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (8800 years ago); the lower limit is defined by the age of the Tuareg V lineages having polymorphism 16 234 (3600 years ago).

[52] Paul A. A History of the Beja Tribes of the Sudan. London: F. Cass; 1971.


https://books.google.com/books?id=hI_wYwpGahEC&pg=PA149&dq=A+Hist

A History of the Beja Tribes of the Sudan
By A. Paul, 1971

_______________________________________________________

^^^ Looking at this text we see Pereira cites in his article we see has not been accurate to what A. Paul said in his book, A History of the Beja Tribes of the Sudan

He did not say "the origin of the Beja is more likely to be traceable to the Arabian Peninsula"

 -

^ A racist remark here about 'superior culture' yes, however he is saying the Beja of Africa were infiltrated by Arabs and not in great proportions he does not say "the origin of the Beja is Arabia" (paraphrase)

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

The point being that North Africa has always been populated by indigenous African groups, carrying various lineages and therefore, the key is identifying these ancient African populations and then distinguishing those from the immigrants, in this case Eurasians.

Doug's claim is unqualified and politically motivated.

There is no evidence that the Maghreb has been continuously occupied.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Doug

The way I see it, is that there is affinity due to admixture and affinity due to phylogenetic relatedness. The former involves plain admixture, the latter has to do with how long ago ancestral populations split off.

The affinity you're talking about between the Sahel and the Maghreb is affinity due to admixture. The affinity between, say, Afro-Caribbeans and African Americans is phylogenetic affinity. African Americans and Afro Caribbeans don't need admixture to be closely related. They are already closely related whether they intermix or not.

The same doesn't apply to Sahelian populations and Maghrebis. While Sahelian populations like the Tibbou may be related to Berbers, the two genetic components in their genome (mostly 'Nilo-Saharan-like' and 'Berber-like') have no close relationship. The source populations they're made up of are structurally different (i.e. they have completely different allele frequencies and certain patterns in their genomes).

This is why scholars use proxies when they want to understand Berber populations. They're not interested in sampling the entire Sahara. They just want to sample the source populations that can model populations in the Sahara.

You want them to go the extra mile and also sample admixed population in the Sahel that carry ancestry from the source populations. That's just redundant. Why would they want to do that? It would be nice if they did from our point of view, but it's not a requirement for what they set out to do.

That wasn't my point at all. What I am saying is that if you are going to claim 'mixture' as the basis of modern populations in North Africa, then you should sample ALL the relevant populations to see all the different forms of admixture that exist. The point being that North Africa has always been populated by indigenous African groups, carrying various lineages and therefore, the key is identifying these ancient African populations and then distinguishing those from the immigrants, in this case Eurasians. My using these proxies they always give more weight to those populations with higher amounts of Eurasian admixture which they then go on to conclude has always been a primary component of admixture in ALL North Africans which is absolutely false. And then on top of that they try and extrapolate the ancestry of all other North Africans based on this biased sample set which is again flawed. There is no way you are going to come up with an accurate population history with such flawed sample sets. But that is assuming that the goal is an accurate population history. My argument is they don't want an accurate population history, they just want to promote the idea that North Africans have always been separated from other Africans by Eurasian admixture and by proposing that the founding lineages in North Africa came from Eurasia, which is all false.
Please give a point by point analysis of how all these newly sequenced Sahelian, Saharan and coastal genomes have improved our understanding of the region in ways that couldn't be done with Henn et al's limited sample set of source populations.

I'm really confused by some of the things you say. For some reason, you seem to think you can squeeze more genetic information out of the various mixtures in the Sahara than the genetic information that is in the source populations. Is it really that hard for you to understand that the ancestry that is in the mixed populations of the Sahara, is the same ancestry that can be found in a handful of strategically picked source populations?

[Confused]

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Yeah, from what I am hearing from you know it makes sense that E-M81 originated in the Maghreb. It makes too much sense as we(like you even said) don't see a important east to west migration with it. And hell before you informed me I noticed a extreme lack of E-M81 in the Nile Valley which SHOULD have given me clues but I ignored it for some reasons.

And I don't know why I did not see Egypt listed. When get back I'll have more time to discuss with you guys in this thread. [/qb]

For me, what made me look into this was trombetta et al 2015. They put the age of all E-M35 branches at 25kya with reliable next generation sequencing of E Y chromosomes. I was already looking into the topic of North African lithics for years so I noticed the correspondence in dates immediately.

And there is no need to rush your replies. Take your time and enjoy your vacation. [Wink]

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ North Africa just like Arabia has gone through periods of wet phases as well as dry phases with populations retreating and returning with the respective phases. Some of the retreating populations were to find refugia in the eastern part of North Africa it was the Nile Valley while in the Maghreb it was moister mountain valleys and coasts. Obviously bottlenecks with founder effect events is what happened as well as later admixture. This is why the best DNA samples should come from ancient remains moreso than modern populations who only represent a fraction of the ancient genome.

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

So? Some of those same Arab authors said Egyptian Cops were 'black'. Presumably, these Copts were more consistently light brown back then, making it easier for Al-Jahiz to generalize this entire community as lighter skinned 'blacks'. Such a description obviously doesn't apply anymore to Copts in general. Can we say based on this description that any dark skinned man in modern Egypt owes his dark skin to those medieval Copts? Of course not. There have been all sort of darker skinned communities in Egypt since then, including recently migrated Nubians. It's no different in the Maghreb.

Those descriptions of medieval and Greek authors don't have a straightforward relevancy to all dark skin in the Maghreb today as modern day Berbers aren't straight forward descendants of the ancient people in the Maghreb.

Someone you describe as a 'black Berber' could have some ancestors with no ties to North Africa. And if you read the same Pliny and other texts you're mentioning, you would know that light skin is more ancient in the Maghreb than Barbary pirates.

So how can you make two convenient checkboxes of 'hybrid partial descendants of European slaves' and 'non hybrid black Berber'?

Precisely the point of my initial post in this thread. How the hell can you tell which populations let alone individuals best represent the original population by 'dark skin' alone.

My point about the Khoisan peoples is that a similar complexion was probably held by the aboriginal peoples of the Maghreb, though we can't say unless DNA for skin color is sequenced. We know from skeletal remains that on average the Oranian/Iberomarusians were similar in appearance to Cromagnon except that they had greater interorbital width, larger nasal openings, and more prognathous. Such features are typically associated with so-called "negroids" but they differed in other measurements from modern day Sub-Saharans which group them closer to upper paleolithic Eurasians like Cromagnon. My guess is that they represent an early split from OOA ancestors like Hofmeyer in Southern Africa.

I agree with your point about expecting to find lighter skin among long term inhabitants of the Maghrebi coast, independent of European geneflow. Just like we find (on average) lighter skin tones among Pygmies in the Central African rain forests than among, say, southern Sudanese and rural Somalis.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
Their cold adapted limbs tell a different story.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008558

quote:
As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.
--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
With the exception of the Siwa... the Tuaregs, Zenata and Sanhaja reside in the Maghreb and so I assume that they are sampled in these studies just as much as the Coastal Berbers.

The Sanhaja/Zenatta are from the Middle Atlas a little bit East of Oazzane, Morocco

[Roll Eyes]
quote:
The Kingdom of Morocco

"Sanhaja, Masmoda, and Zenata are the three tribes constituting the Berbers ..."

http://www.embassyofmorocco.us/kingdom.htm


quote:
Zenata (Berber: Ijenaden) are a major old Berber ethnic group of North Africa. They were an umbrella-group encompassing probably hundreds of large linguistically or genealogically related Berber tribes in the north, center and east of Berber North Africa (excluding the Nile valley of Egypt). Zenata Berbers were the founders of several Berber empires, kingdoms and princedoms in North Africa.

http://research.omicsgroup.org/index.php/Zenata


quote:
" ...in the old sources the terms Berber, Sanhaja, Massufa, Lamtuna and Tuareg are often used interchangeably"
--Marq de Villiers and Sheila Hirtle ( 2009). Timbuktu: The Sahara's Fabled city of Gold, p. 271.
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 -


 -


quote:
“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.”
--The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:


I've said it before and I'll say it again... the Tuaregs share a common origin with the Beja of my country, and it is from here that the Berber language and people originate from -- meaning that the black Berbers are the original Berbers. The paternal DNA of the non- black Berbers is apparently predominately African but their maternal DNA is Eurasian, so they are derivatives of the original East Africans [paternally] and their maternal ancestors that came to Africa through the Iberian Peninsula.

 -
Here is a Beja man. Is he 100% African or is he 20% (or more )percent Eurasian like the average African American? We don't know because there are no DNA studies of the Beja. Regardless by looks he is considered black


The Beja aren't the original berbers because they don't speak aberber language.

If someone were to propose that the original berber speakers looked like Beja they could then also argue people who do not look like Beja are not berbers.
What is a berber? There is no hard definition. One might say a berber is a person of mixed African and Eurasian ancestry and who speaks a berber language.
Somebody else might say the original berber speakers were African with no Eurasian admixture but one cannot prove either theory.



So, can you explain the transition between Beja and Kel?

And what exactly is "eurasian"?

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,: Somebody else might say the original berber speakers were African with no Eurasian admixture but one cannot prove either theory.

[Big Grin] SMH


quote:
The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan.

[...]


The time frame for the migration of the Tuareg towards the African Sahel belt overlaps that of early Holocene climatic changes across the Sahara (from the optimal greening ∼10 000 YBP to the extant aridity beginning at ∼6000 YBP) and the migrations of other African nomadic peoples in the area.



 -


 -

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Why does it matter if certain light skin populations have resided in the Maghreb for thousands of years? The insistence that there were no Eurasian genetic input on the North African Coast is laughable as is the insistence that all light-skin Berbers are descendants of white slaves during the Barbary period even though 'white' Libyans were portrayed in ancient Egyptian reliefs. This is almost just as inane as the groundless assertion that all black North Africans are descendants of 'sub-Saharan' slaves.

Berbers are a linguistic group - not an ethnic group and it is the language that we should be focused on in regards to culture.

What those depictions show at times is indeed light complexion, but "white" no.


 -


Description: Part of a polychrome glazed composition tile bearing a relief representation of the head and upper body of a Libyan prisoner with a pointed beard, side-lock and bound hands (one lost).
British Museum

 -


http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=993027001&objectId=128201&partId=1

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
Their cold adapted limbs tell a different story.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008558 [/qb]

quote:
As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.
--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence [/qb]

Full quote? It doesn't say whether this is about Nile Valley samples or the Afalou sample.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
Their cold adapted limbs tell a different story.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008558

quote:
As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.
--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence [/qb]

Full quote? It doesn't say whether this is about Nile Valley samples or the Afalou sample. [/QB]
quote:

Three Jebel Sahaba individuals (117-19, 117-22 and 117-39) fall below the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line, but all the Jebel Sahaba sample fall above the recent North African OLS line.

Note that the Afalou specimens (the grey circles) all fall below the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line, with one individual (no. 28) falling below the recent European regression line and directly on the circumpolar line. Ain Dokhara 1 (the black circle), an early Holocene, Capsian-associated skeleton from Algeria (Balout 1955b), falls just above the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line. All five of the Natufian individuals from El Wad, Israel (the open squares), fall below the recent North African OLS line, and three of the five fall below the recent European regression line.

A similar, if less marked, clinal pattern is evident in the scatter plot of tibial length on femoral head size (Figure 2). Once again, the recent humans show a clinal pattern, with sub-Saharan Africans on average having the longest tibiae and circumpolar individuals possessing the shortest. As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits. As a group, the Jebel Sahaba sample (the stars) tend to have longer tibiae for any given femoral head size than do the other fossil groups. Four of the eight Jebel Sahaba individuals (117-1, 117-6, 117-10 and 117-26) fall above the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line, with a fifth individual (117-19) falling directly on it. Three Jebel Sahaba individuals (117-18, 117-28 and 117-39) fall below the sub-Saharan OLS line. Of these, 117-28 lies above the recent North African OLS line, 117-39 falls directly on it and 117-18 falls just below it. In contrast, none of the Afalou skeletons (the grey circles) falls above the sub-Saharan African line; rather, they tend to cluster about the North African and European lines. Afalou 28 actually falls below the recent circumpolar human regression line for the tibial length: femoral head size relationship. Ain Dokhara 1 (the black circle) falls just above the North African and just below the sub-Saharan African OLS lines.


 -


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Swenet
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I know now what it's talking about. It's talking about certain variables, not their bodyplan as a whole. I didn't recall their bodyplan as a whole being intermediate, so I had to ask.

Thought I was getting rusty like gramps.

[Razz]

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the lioness,
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 -

Swenet what is this guy Marouane Fellaini?
His parents are Moroccan

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sudanese
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Lioness

Which populations in Europe are 100% European? Are the Greeks, Spaniards, Italians, Portuguese and all others 100% European? There are no pure populations, so stop pretending that this is a requirement for any African population.

PS: I never argued that the Beja are Berbers; I argued that [according to experts] the Berber language originates in Northeast Africa and that the Tuaregs and Beja share a common origin.

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sudanese
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I typed in Jebel Sahaba and these absurd articles came out.

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/worlds-first-race-war-revealed-13000-year-old-skeletons-1456584

Since when are people in North Sudan "Sub-Saharan"? And since when were the people in Southern Egypt "Levantine/European"?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
: I never argued that the Beja are Berbers; I argued that [according to experts] the Berber language originates in Northeast Africa and that the Tuaregs and Beja share a common origin.

quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:


I've said it before and I'll say it again... the Tuaregs share a common origin with the Beja of my country, and it is from here that the Berber language and people originate from -- meaning that the black Berbers are the original Berbers.

where is your evidence that berber language originates in sudan?
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sudanese
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Lioness

You really have to learn to read what others are saying instead of engaging in distortion, in your usual style. Did I say that the Berber language specifically originated in Sudan? I said that "the Berber language originates in Northeast Africa". That's what I said. I also said that the Tuareg and Beja share a common origin -- a position held by experts.

Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

I haven't studied the cracker that deep so I don't know where his purest folk reside, probably some blond haired niggas in Norway
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
I typed in Jebel Sahaba and these absurd articles came out.

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/worlds-first-race-war-revealed-13000-year-old-skeletons-1456584

Since when are people in North Sudan "Sub-Saharan"? And since when were the people in Southern Egypt "Levantine/European"?

Read through this one..

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009331;p=1#000006


quote:
"I suspect there was no outside enemy, these were tribes mounting regular and ferocious raids amongst themselves for scarce resources," curator Renee Friedman said. "Nobody was spared: there were many women and children among the dead, a very unusual composition for any cemetery, and almost half bore the marks of violent death. Many more may have died of flesh wounds which left no marks."
--Renee Friedman

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jul/14/13000-year-old-skeletons-war-dead-british-museum

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
: I never argued that the Beja are Berbers; I argued that [according to experts] the Berber language originates in Northeast Africa and that the Tuaregs and Beja share a common origin.

quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:


I've said it before and I'll say it again... the Tuaregs share a common origin with the Beja of my country, and it is from here that the Berber language and people originate from -- meaning that the black Berbers are the original Berbers.

where is your evidence that berber language originates in sudan?

The proto of the phylum arose at the Sudan.

 -

 -

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

Swenet what is this guy Marouane Fellaini?
His parents are Moroccan

He is a Moroccan Berber with origins at Tangier. And why you had to show his ex girlfriend Lara Binet subliminally, is beyond me.


 -

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Lioness

You really have to learn to read what others are saying instead of engaging in distortion, in your usual style. Did I say that the Berber language specifically originated in Sudan? I said that "the Berber language originates in Northeast Africa". That's what I said. I also said that the Tuareg and Beja share a common origin -- a position held by experts.

Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

It was a typical knee jerk response.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

I haven't studied the cracker that deep so I don't know where his purest folk reside, probably some blond haired niggas in Norway
Typical stupid sarcastic response when lacking knowledge.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Lioness


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

It was a typical knee jerk response.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:


Now, answer my earlier question? Which group of Europeans are 100% European?

I haven't studied the cracker that deep so I don't know where his purest folk reside, probably some blond haired niggas in Norway
Typical stupid sarcastic response when lacking knowledge.

Help us out, where are the purest Europeans at? I lack the knowledge on this one
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]  -

Swenet what is this guy Marouane Fellaini?
His parents are Moroccan

He is a Moroccan Berber with origins at Tangier. And why you had to show his ex girlfriend Lara Binet subliminally, is beyond me.



This is a good frontal view of him, no silly expression. His complexion here is nearly of the girl here, a tiny bit darker.
You said he wasn't white. Why is he not white? Is it the hair?
He probably does have some African in him though.
I dont go by that one drop makes you black thing.
Look at this guy. He's whiter than the white Fulani of Burkina Faso. No doubt Africans would call this guy white

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beyoku
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http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/24701394.2016.1258406?scroll=top&needAccess=true


Let's see how y'all clowns are going to duck and dodge these results. This is what happens when you ignore data in favor of ideology.

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
[QB] http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/24701394.2016.1258406?scroll=top&needAccess=true



^abstract from above link:

On the origin of Iberomaurusians: new data based on ancient mitochondrial DNA and phylogenetic analysis of Afalou and Taforalt populations
Rym Kefi, Meriem Hechmi, Chokri Naouali, Haifa Jmel, Sana Hsouna, Eric Bouzaid, show all
Pages 1-11 | Received 17 Sep 2016, Accepted 04 Nov 2016, Published online: 30 Dec 2016

Abstract

The Western North African population was characterized by the presence of Iberomaurusian civilization at the Epiplaeolithic period (around 20,000 years before present (YBP) to 10,000 YBP). The origin of this population is still not clear: they may come from Europe, Near East, sub-Saharan Africa or they could have evolved in situ in North Africa. With the aim to contribute to a better knowledge of the settlement of North Africa we analysed the mitochondrial DNA extracted from Iberomaurusian skeletons exhumed from the archaeological site of Afalou (AFA) (15,000–11,000 YBP) in Algeria and from the archaeological site of Taforalt (TAF) (23,000–10,800 YBP) in Morocco. Then, we carried out a phylogenetic analysis relating these Iberomaurusians to 61 current Mediterranean populations.

The genetic structure of TAF and AFA specimens contains only North African and Eurasian maternal lineages. These finding demonstrate the presence of these haplotypes in North Africa from at least 20,000 YBP. The very low contribution of a Sub-Saharan African haplotype in the Iberomaurusian samples is confirmed. We also highlighted the existence of genetic flows between Southern and Northern coast of the Mediterranean.

_______________________________

This means
Afalou (15,000–11,000 YBP) in Algeria and
Taforalt (23,000–10,800 YBP)

are indeed very different, genetically (and in limb proportions)
to Sub Saharan Africans

If you want to look at a population that is more gracile look at the Capsian between about 9000 and 5000 BC in Tunisia, that came after the Iberomaurusian
However I am not aware of any DNA analysis.

Again, populations have come and gone in the Maghreb

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Swenet
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Well damn! At least use some vaseline. Lol!
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Swenet
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It's raining nukes today. First Ronda Rousey, now this.  -
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Doug

The way I see it, is that there is affinity due to admixture and affinity due to phylogenetic relatedness. The former involves plain admixture, the latter has to do with how long ago ancestral populations split off.

The affinity you're talking about between the Sahel and the Maghreb is affinity due to admixture. The affinity between, say, Afro-Caribbeans and African Americans is phylogenetic affinity. African Americans and Afro Caribbeans don't need admixture to be closely related. They are already closely related whether they intermix or not.

The same doesn't apply to Sahelian populations and Maghrebis. While Sahelian populations like the Tibbou may be related to Berbers, the two genetic components in their genome (mostly 'Nilo-Saharan-like' and 'Berber-like') have no close relationship. The source populations they're made up of are structurally different (i.e. they have completely different allele frequencies and certain patterns in their genomes).

This is why scholars use proxies when they want to understand Berber populations. They're not interested in sampling the entire Sahara. They just want to sample the source populations that can model populations in the Sahara.

You want them to go the extra mile and also sample admixed population in the Sahel that carry ancestry from the source populations. That's just redundant. Why would they want to do that? It would be nice if they did from our point of view, but it's not a requirement for what they set out to do.

That wasn't my point at all. What I am saying is that if you are going to claim 'mixture' as the basis of modern populations in North Africa, then you should sample ALL the relevant populations to see all the different forms of admixture that exist. The point being that North Africa has always been populated by indigenous African groups, carrying various lineages and therefore, the key is identifying these ancient African populations and then distinguishing those from the immigrants, in this case Eurasians. My using these proxies they always give more weight to those populations with higher amounts of Eurasian admixture which they then go on to conclude has always been a primary component of admixture in ALL North Africans which is absolutely false. And then on top of that they try and extrapolate the ancestry of all other North Africans based on this biased sample set which is again flawed. There is no way you are going to come up with an accurate population history with such flawed sample sets. But that is assuming that the goal is an accurate population history. My argument is they don't want an accurate population history, they just want to promote the idea that North Africans have always been separated from other Africans by Eurasian admixture and by proposing that the founding lineages in North Africa came from Eurasia, which is all false.
Please give a point by point analysis of how all these newly sequenced Sahelian, Saharan and coastal genomes have improved our understanding of the region in ways that couldn't be done with Henn et al's limited sample set of source populations.

I'm really confused by some of the things you say. For some reason, you seem to think you can squeeze more genetic information out of the various mixtures in the Sahara than the genetic information that is in the source populations. Is it really that hard for you to understand that the ancestry that is in the mixed populations of the Sahara, is the same ancestry that can be found in a handful of strategically picked source populations?

[Confused]

I am suggesting that sampling bias is skewing the data and that therefore you won't get as accurate results. For example, Tuaregs are spread across at least 4 countries in Africa. So when they sample "the Tuareg" which groups are they sampling? This goes for every other linguistic or ethnic group. And separate from that there is how you slice and dice the data, which more often than not is to try and reinforce historic beliefs which are not validated by the data: ie. North Africa as primarily derived from Eurasia, as opposed to North Africa primarily African with some Eurasian mixture.
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/24701394.2016.1258406?scroll=top&needAccess=true


Let's see how y'all clowns are going to duck and dodge these results. This is what happens when you ignore data in favor of ideology.

 -

Actually we have been over this multiple times.

Like here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000939;p=1

Here is a map:
 -

Based on the proximity of said sites to Europe the results do make sense. But do they reflect the populations of ALL of North Africa? Of course not. Notwithstanding that the people at this time most likely looked similar to this Ethiopian type:
 -

Than this:
 -
quote:
Caption: Mechta-Afalou model research. Researcher with a reconstruction of a Mechta-Afalou head based on fossils found at Afalou in Algeria (1967). These fossils date from 25,000 to 8,000 years ago. The Mechta-Afalou people were a form of early humans (Homo sapiens) that inhabited northern Africa. Reconstruction by the Daynes Studio, Paris, France.
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/481370/view

Again the implication here being that ALL North Africans derive from or looked like Eurasians.
The Iberomaurisian is one tiny sliver of North Africa right next to Europe. That is less than 5% of the complete expanse of "North Africa". But again, they will skew this to imply that ALL North Africans are basically the same as this population or any other population in later times by skewing the data towards coastal areas. Again, as I have said many times before the Sahara itself is bigger than the continental US and the Iberomaurisian is something like Rhode Island and Maine.

The problem here is these folks are implying that settlement of the Sahara was from the North migrating south, which again reinforces the belief that North Africa was "distinct" from the rest of Africa because of various Eurasian migrations going back 20,000 years ago.

I would argue that were other settlement sites in other parts of the Sahara, most likely around lakes or oases that they haven't found which would give a better picture. But here again, we are running up on the fact that when you start dealing with any time period over 15,000 years ago, there is a distinct LACK of archaeological findings in Africa. Right now the Sahara stone age sites around Gobero date from 10,000 years ago. https://news.uchicago.edu/article/2008/08/14/stone-age-graveyard-reveals-lifestyles-green-sahara-two-successive-cultures-thriv
But there is not much data from 40,000 KYA to 20,000 kya in North Africa proper, or much less anywhere else in Africa outside of Southern Africa. The only contemporaneous stone tool culture from this period in North Africa is the Khormusan:

http://ehrafarchaeology.yale.edu/ehrafa/citation.do?method=citation&forward=browseAuthorsFullContext&id=mr45-005

And this finding makes sense because of the Nile. But surely there is a big gap in the archaeological record.

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the lioness,
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Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Sabeh FrigiLotfi CherniKarima Fadhlaoui-zidAmel Benammar-Elgaaied
Human Biology, Volume 82, Number 4, August 2010,


n the present work, mtDNA data show a diversified distribution of African haplogroups. However, a question remains concerning the date of the sub-Saharan African inputs. Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b). The most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced from eastern sub-Saharan populations to North Africa about 20,000 years ago. The Siwa oasis sample studied by Coudray et al. (2009) contains sub-Saharan haplogroups L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2, which are different from our Tunisian samples, in agreement with the heterogeneity of Berbers already shown in Tunisia.Stevanovitch et al. (2004) suggested that the Gurna population in Egypt has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population characterized by a high haplogroup M1 frequency. This haplogroup is also present in three Berber populations (Kesra, Matmata, and Sned) with vari-able frequencies. In each of these populations, haplogroup L3* is also present. The association of both eastern African haplogroups in the Berber populations is a strong argument in favor of eastern African gene flow in Berbers. Other genetic and archaeological studies confirmed the crucial idea that an ancient population in East Africa constituted the basis of the ancestors of all African Upper Paleolithic populations—and their subsequent present-day descendants (Bengtson 2008; Keita 2004; Relethford 2000; Zakrzewski 2003, 2007)

Moreover, Berber languages spoken exclusively by North African popula-tions belong to the Afro-Asiatic language. Diakonoff (1998) showed an exclusively African origin (Diakonoff, 1981, 1988) for the family. He explicitly described proto-Afro-Asiatic vocabulary as consistent with non-food-producing vocabulary and linked it to pre-Neolithic cultures in the Levant and in Africa south of Egypt. Moreover, Ehret (2003) suggested that early Afro-Asiatic languages were spread by Mesolithic foragers from Africa into the Levant. On the contrary, Diamond and Bellwood (2003) suggested that food production and the Afro- Asiatic lan-guage family were brought simultaneously from the Near East to Africa by demic diffusion—in other words, by a migration of food-producing peoples. The evi-dence presented by Wetterstrom (1993) does not support this latter suggestion, however, and indicates that early African farmers in the Fayum initially incorpo-rated Near Eastern domesticates into an existing indigenous foraging strategy and only over time developed a dependence on horticulture. In conclusion, the crucial linguistic finding is that the three deepest clades of the Afro-Asiatic family are localized in Eritrea and Ethiopia. All the other lan-guages of the family outside that region belong to subclades of just one of those deep clades. This kind of cladistic distribution is a basic criterion of the genetic argument for the genetic lineage origins well understood by geneticists. It applies to linguistic history as well. Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to north-ern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP). It seems likely that an expansion would have taken place in the Sahel zone starting about the time of a gradual climatic return to wetter conditions, when the Senegal River cut through the dunes (Burke et al. 1971). For subhaplogroup L2a1 (data not shown) we found some haplotypes that the Tunisian Berbers shared with Mauritanians and western sub-Saharan popula-tions speaking a Niger-Congo language (studied by Salas et al. 2002). This sug-gests that the people who brought these markers to the Berber populations most likely came from West African populations that spoke languages belonging to the Niger-Congo family when the Sahara became drier. However, this contribution of West African haplotypes and of other haplotypes, such as those belonging to haplogroup L1b1, could have been introduced to North Africa more recently.Indeed, this West African contribution was difficult to date, because few haplotypes belonging to western African haplogroups have been observed, most of them being divergent. This result can be interpreted in different ways. Ancient western African mtDNA contributions could have disappeared from North Africa as a result of recent flows, or the situation observed now could be the result of a strong drift effect on ancient western African lineages, particularly those belong-ing to haplogroups L2a and L3b. A strong Iberian gene flow may have contrib-uted to the decrease in African haplogroups. Indeed, most of the older hypotheses about North African population settlement used to suppose an Iberian or an east-ern origin. The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How-ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re-flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autoso-mal and Y-chromosome markers.Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre-Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding
increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better hab-itats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange. Desiccation would have encouraged the emigration and segmentation of popu-lations, with resultant genetic consequences secondary to drift producing more variation. During the last glacial period, the Sahara was even bigger than it is today, extending south beyond its current boundaries (Ehret 2002). About 13,000 years ago, large parts of the Sahara were as dry as the desert is now (White and Mattingly 2006). The end of the glacial period brought more rain to the Sahara, especially from about 8500 to 6000 BC (Fezzan Project 2006). By around 3400 BC, the monsoon retreated south to approximately where it is today, leading to the gradual desertification of the region (Kröpelin 2008). Thus the Sahara, through its cyclical environmental changes, might be seen as a microevolutionary “proces-sor” and/or “pump” of African people that “ejected” groups to the circum-Saharan regions in times of increasing aridity. Indeed, it must be noted that the high frequencies of cDe, P, and V antigens
and low frequencies of FY antigens in some Berber-speaking groups (Chamla
1980; Mourant et al. 1976) indicate affinities with tropical Africans. These data may indicate recent or ancient gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, a common im-mediate pre-Holocene ancestral group, or chance resemblance. Our findings are in accordance with other studies on Y-chromosome mark-ers that have shown that the predominant Y-chromosome lineage in Berber com-munities is the subhaplogroup E1b1b1b (E-M81), which emerged in Africa, is specific to North African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001). Hence, contrary to the suggestion that mtDNA haplogroups were intro-duced mostly from Iberia, it seems that Y-chromosome markers have an eastern African origin with an ancient local evolution in North Africa. These observa-tions are in agreement with the proposal that the ancient communities ancestral in language to more recent Berber communities absorbed a lot of females from the existing pre-Holocene populations. This would indicate that the North Afri-can populations arose from admixture rather than from local evolution, leading to an intermediate genetic structure between eastern sub-Saharan Africans and Eurasians. Rock paintings in North Africa that show people of different pheno-types living together are a strong argument for our hypothesis (Hachid 1982, 1992, 1998).In conclusion, our findings parallel the more recent findings of both archae-ology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present study suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex pop-ulation processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern hu-mans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic
root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa


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_______________________________

KESRA


Kesra is a Berber village of the center-west, the highest of Tunisia with 1100 meters of altitude, famous for its megalithic monuments, its cascade of water and its stairs carved in the rock
At a distance of 160 kms from Tunis and 120 kms from Kairouan, it is attached to the governorate of Siliana. It has about 2500 inhabitants.
Kesra is the only ancient settlement in the area to survive. Historically, it played an important role.
Exceptional architecture

The stepped streets, the emblem of the village, date from Roman times, and it is not uncommon
To find Punic and Latin inscriptions on the stones of the walls of the houses.
The village contains megalithic monuments, some of which have retained their cover in large slabs, as well as tombs dug in the rock.
The other Byzantine monuments were built with ancient materials, such as a quadrangular fortress of the Justinian period, ramparts and a tower.
Also worth seeing is the zaouia of Sidi Ameur which is accessed by stairs cut in the rock.
The Heritage Museum
Kesra has a magnificent museum with three main themes:
. Popular traditions and female artisan work (pottery, weaving)


VIDEO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFBi7TPd0IY&t=48s

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
I am suggesting that sampling bias is skewing the data and that therefore you won't get as accurate results. For example, Tuaregs are spread across at least 4 countries in Africa. So when they sample "the Tuareg" which groups are they sampling? This goes for every other linguistic or ethnic group. And separate from that there is how you slice and dice the data, which more often than not is to try and reinforce historic beliefs which are not validated by the data: ie. North Africa as primarily derived from Eurasia, as opposed to North Africa primarily African with some Eurasian mixture. [/qb]

I agree on the Tuareg example.

But that's not what we're talking about. You started out saying that it would have been a drastically different result in the treemix analysis if a 'better' SSA sample was used and that any conclusion is invalid unless geneticists scour the entire Sahara to find the best reference population for the African ancestry in the Maghreb.

Based on what? How do you know that would drastically improve results? It seems like you're just venting without having any proof.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
I am suggesting that sampling bias is skewing the data and that therefore you won't get as accurate results. For example, Tuaregs are spread across at least 4 countries in Africa. So when they sample "the Tuareg" which groups are they sampling? This goes for every other linguistic or ethnic group. And separate from that there is how you slice and dice the data, which more often than not is to try and reinforce historic beliefs which are not validated by the data: ie. North Africa as primarily derived from Eurasia, as opposed to North Africa primarily African with some Eurasian mixture.

I agree on the Tuareg example.

But that's not what we're talking about. You started out saying that it would have been a drastically different result in the treemix analysis if a 'better' SSA sample was used and that any conclusion is invalid unless geneticists scour the entire Sahara to find the best reference population for the African ancestry in the Maghreb.

Based on what? How do you know that would drastically improve results? It seems like you're just venting without having any proof. [/QB]

I am only calling out some of the statements implying that any African inputs into North Africa was based on 'slavery' from 'Sub Saharan' Africa.
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