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I have just posted near the bottom of the previous page perhaps the only article discussing in depth and with data Hg L ancestry in berbers, by Frigi That is the primary article pertaining to this
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations Sabeh FrigiLotfi CherniKarima Fadhlaoui-zidAmel Benammar-Elgaaied Human Biology, Volume 82, Number 4, August 2010,
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b). The most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced from eastern sub-Saharan populations to North Africa about 20,000 years ago.
On the origin of Iberomaurusians: new data based on ancient mitochondrial DNA and phylogenetic analysis of Afalou and Taforalt populations Rym Kefi, Meriem Hechmi, Chokri Naouali, Haifa Jmel, Sana Hsouna, Eric Bouzaid, show all Pages 1-11 | Received 17 Sep 2016, Accepted 04 Nov 2016, Published online: 30 Dec 2016
Abstract
or they could have evolved in situ in North Africa. With the aim to contribute to a better knowledge of the settlement of North Africa we analysed the mitochondrial DNA extracted from Iberomaurusian skeletons exhumed from the archaeological site of Afalou (AFA) (15,000–11,000 YBP) in Algeria and from the archaeological site of Taforalt (TAF) (23,000–10,800 YBP) in Morocco.
Nice posts.
I stick with situ.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Swenet what is this guy Marouane Fellaini? His parents are Moroccan
He is a Moroccan Berber with origins at Tangier. And why you had to show his ex girlfriend Lara Binet subliminally, is beyond me.
This is a good frontal view of him, no silly expression. His complexion here is nearly of the girl here, a tiny bit darker. You said he wasn't white. Why is he not white? Is it the hair? He probably does have some African in him though. I dont go by that one drop makes you black thing. Look at this guy. He's whiter than the white Fulani of Burkina Faso. No doubt Africans would call this guy white
Yes, he is a bit darker than the girl, indeed. I said nothing about black or white. But he is the fairest you'll get in African populations.
I have no idea why a white Fulani of Burkina Faso is supposed to look like.
However, according to many of your descriptive posts on complexion, he fits the swarthy complexion.
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@DougM. I don't really care how they LOOKED. Their osteological affinity hinted that their genetic affinity would be with Eurasia. Some folks was ignoring it. Their facial features are pretty generalized and probably similar to many surrounding contemporary remains REGARDLESS of their affinity. See Kiffian.....better yet, see Hofmeyr.
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yes, he is a bit darker than the girl, indeed. I said nothing about black or white. But he is the fairest you'll get in African populations.
.
,
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: [qb] Why does it matter if certain light skin populations have resided in the Maghreb for thousands of years? The insistence that there were no Eurasian genetic input on the North African Coast is laughable as is the insistence that all light-skin Berbers are descendants of white slaves during the Barbary period even though 'white' Libyans were portrayed in ancient Egyptian reliefs. This is almost just as inane as the groundless assertion that all black North Africans are descendants of 'sub-Saharan' slaves.
Berbers are a linguistic group - not an ethnic group and it is the language that we should be focused on in regards to culture.
What those depictions show at times is indeed light complexion, but "white" no.
you did say something about black or white
you said this guy is not white
so anybody as dark as he is ^^ cannot be considered white
cheek samples of each person in the photo above it
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The point is they should sample populations in West Africa closer to the Sahara and Sahel who have known historic links via trade and travel with Northern Afrca. Why no samples from Senegal, Mali, Southern Mauritania,Chad, Niger and so forth? Obviously there has always been migration beck and forth between the Sahara and areas to the South. ....
Obviously if that happens you will see more intermediacy and overlapping going on. For example the Fulani from the North closely associate with Tuareg and Hausa.
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^ I remember a Spanish study Swenet sent me a couple years ago by I believe Gonzalez et al. which stated that even the alleged 'Eurasian' mitochondrial clades of U6 and M1 are not restricted to the Maghreb but are also found farther south in West Africa indicating that there was continuity between Northwest Africa and West Africa farther south.
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Evoking and discussing slavery is an unnecessary distraction because we don't know any individuals' history. All we know is there is ongoing admixture and that this is not mutually exclusive with a long presence of SSA ancestry in the region.
For instance, here is Tuareg (MNLA) leadership pictured with Malians(?) of other ethnic groups (distinguishable by attire):
^These are not 'normal' levels of variation in pigmentation within a population. This is a population in which siblings', neighbors' and family members' skin colors can be all over the place. This high level of variation in skin color reduces and eventually disappears over time and so you know this scene right here is not a snapshot of variations thousands of years ago. There would have been a time when their Central Saharan ancestors had levels of skin pigmentation more or loss the same throughout the entire population. You only see this in groups that have had ongoing and recent admixture, like Brazilians, Cape Verdeans and African Americans.
But leave it to some people like the OP and they'll tell you they're all 'black Berbers' with no recent input from non Berbers to the south. Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Y'all still spamming pictures but avoiding that data though. Kiffians and that white Berber soccer player with the Afro will not save you. LOL.
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^ Tell that to Lioness, the queen of picture spamming and cherry-picking.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Evoking and discussing slavery is an unnecessary distraction because we don't know any individuals' history. All we know is there is ongoing admixture and that this is not mutually exclusive with a long presence of SSA ancestry in the region.
For instance, here is Tuareg (MNLA) leadership pictured with Malians(?) of other ethnic groups (distinguishable by attire):
^These are not 'normal' levels of variation in pigmentation within a population. This is a population in which siblings', neighbors' and family members' skin colors can be all over the place. This high level of variation in skin color reduces and eventually disappears over time and so you know this scene right here is not a snapshot of variations thousands of years ago. There would have been a time when their Central Saharan ancestors had levels of skin pigmentation more or loss the same throughout the entire population. You only see this in groups that have had ongoing and recent admixture, like Brazilians, Cape Verdeans and African Americans.
But leave it to some people like the OP and they'll tell you they're all 'black Berbers' with no recent input from non Berbers to the south.
Let's see how y'all clowns are going to duck and dodge these results. This is what happens when you ignore data in favor of ideology.
I wonder how these U lineages match up with this:
quote:
Return to Africa traced by U6
As secondary branch of the Eurasian macro-haplogroup N, phylogenetically, U6 is a non-African lineage and represents a back-migration to Africa. According to haplogroup U geographic radiation, it was suggested that the most probable origin of the U6 ancestor was in western Asia with a subsequent movement into Africa [5]. Several age estimates for the whole U6 mtDNA clade have been calculated with different sets of complete sequences, varying mutation rates and different coalescence-based approaches; including, mean pairwise distances, maximum likelihood, and internally calibrated Bayesian relaxed clock phylogenetics. Ages ranged from 33.5 ky [9] to 45.1 ky [7], but with broad credibility boundaries that largely overlap. Our own estimate of the time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for U6, using the current enlarged set of complete sequences, is 35.3 (24.6 - 46.4) ky. This period coincides with the Early Upper Paleolithic (EUP) period, prior to the Last Glacial Maximum, but cold and dry enough to force a North African coastal route.
The upper limit for the first U6 radiation within Africa, represented by the time to the MRCA of U6a is 26.2 (20.3 - 32.2) kya, and likely occurred in the Northwest 9,000 years later than the age of the whole clade. If we assume that U6 originated outside of Africa, and taking 5,000 km as an estimation of the North African coastal contour, with an homogenous coastal environment, and a simple one-dimensional diffusion model, the constant rate of advance (r) of the population carrying the U6 lineage would be 0.56 km per year, which is a reasonable value for Paleolithic hunter-gatherers [33]. Now, assuming a Paleolithic population growth rate (g) of 0.007 per year, we can calculate the migration rate (m) as 11.2 km per year using Fishers’ equation (r = 2 √(gm)). Two transitions, 3348 and 16172, separate haplogroup U6 from the basal macro-haplogroup U. Using a mutation rate of one transition in every 3,624 years [23], we estimate that an average period of about 7,000 years separates the U and U6 nodes. Although, the credible intervals of these two dates will be large, the relative placement of the two nodes should remain constant. If we place the U6 node at the northeast border of Africa, and under the same assumptions and parameters applied above, we can transform years into km, obtaining a radius of about 4,000 km outside of Africa for the place of origin of macrohaplogroup U within Eurasia.
Phylogeographic analysis using both uniparental markers repeatedly and independently pointed to the early return to Africa of modern humans after their first exodus. Focusing on mtDNA, it has been suggested that haplogroup M1 could be the travel partner of U6 [7, 10]. However, there are notable differences in their geographic distributions, mainly in North Africa where U6 is predominant in the Maghreb and scarce in Egypt, while M1 shows the opposite trend, reaching its highest frequency in the latter country. The divorcing demographic histories of both haplogroups in Africa have been pointed out recently [8].
Several possible Y-chromosome counterparts of this backflow have been also described. Thus, in a phylogeographic analysis of Y-chromosome binary haplotypes [34], it was proposed that the Eurasian haplogroup R characterized by M173/M207 SNPs expanded from its origin, reaching Europe, the Middle East and India. Later it was found that a branch of this haplogroup also penetrated into Africa [11], strongly resembling the mtDNA U2, U5 and U6 trifurcation. Haplogroup T-M70, which emerged around 40 kya in Asia after the K-M9 polymorphism and has widespread but low frequency distributions in Europe and North and East Africa, has also been proposed as a signal of an ancient backflow to Africa [12, 35]. Another possible signature of this Back to Africa movement could be the IJ haplogroup defined by marker M429 [36], which bifurcated early, spreading haplogroup I throughout Europe and haplogroup J through the Middle East, Ethiopia and North Africa. The ancient coalescence calculated for J1-M267 [37] further reinforces this hypothesis.
There are important differences in dating this back-migration, with mtDNA situating it in the Pleistocene [5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10] and Y-chromosome mainly in the Holocene [11, 12, 13]. This difference was previously attributed to the deeper coalescence for mtDNA compared to that for Y-chromosome lineages [38], however recent findings [39] indicates that these differences should be attributed to the fact that each uniparental markers may be detecting different gender-specific movements. On mtDNA grounds, it is known that after the Out of Africa migration around 59–69 kya, the U branch of macro-haplogroup N spread radially from somewhere in western Asia around 39–52 kya. This reached Europe, signaled by haplogroup U5, North Africa by haplogroup U6, and India by haplogroup U2 [5]. Coalescence age for U5 correlates closely with the spread of Aurignac culture in Europe and, from an archaeological perspective, it has been argued that Central Asia, not the Levant, was the most probable origin of this migration [40, 41]. In absolute agreement with this vision, we propose that, in parallel, U6 reached the Levant with the intrusive Levantine Aurignacian around 35 kya, coinciding with the coalescence age for this haplogroup. U6 spreads into Africa
This first African expansion of U6a in the Maghreb was suggested in a previous analysis [6]. This radiation inside Africa occurred in Morocco around 26 kya (Table 2) and, ruling out the earlier Aterian, we suggested the Iberomaurusian as the most probable archaeological and anthropological correlate of this spread in the Maghreb [6]. Others have pointed to the Dabban industry in North Africa and its supposed source in the Levant, the Ahmarian, as the archaeological footprints of U6 coming back to Africa [7, 9]. However, we disagree for several reasons: firstly, they most probably evolved in situ from previous cultures, not being intrusive in their respective areas [42, 43, 44]; second, their chronologies are out of phase with U6 and third, Dabban is a local industry in Cyrenaica not showing the whole coastal expansion of U6. In addition, recent archaeological evidence, based on securely dated layers, also points to the Maghreb as the place with the oldest implantation of the Iberomaurusian culture [45], which is coincidental with the U6 radiation from this region proposed in this and previous studies [6]. In the same publication, based on partial sequences [6], we also suggested a migration from the Maghreb eastwards to explain the Ethiopian radiation but, in the light of complete sequence information, it seems that it was an independent spread [9]. In the present study, the U6a2 branch shows an important radiation centered in Ethiopia (Table 2) at around 20 kya (see Additional file 2). However, this period corresponds with a maximal period of aridity in North Africa and a return to East Africa across the Sahara seems unlikely. The most probable scenario is that small human groups scattered at a low density throughout the territory, retreated in bad times to more hospitable areas such as the Moroccan Atlas Mountains and the Ethiopian Highlands. Given the still limited U6 information from Northeast African and Levant populations, we are unable to hypothesize the route followed by the U6 settlers of Ethiopia and to correlate them to an appropriate archaeological layer. In this respect, the absence of U6 representatives in autochthonous populations from Egypt [46, 47, 48] and its scarcity in cosmopolitan samples [49, 50] is puzzling. However, our model has an important outcome. It is that the proposed movement out of Africa through the Levantine corridor around 40 kya did not occur or has no maternal continuity to the present day. This is because: first, in that period the Eurasian haplogroups M and N had already evolved and spread at continental level in Eurasia, and, second, there is no evidence of any L-derived clade outside Africa with a similar coalescence age to that proposed movement. Under this perspective, the late Pleistocene human skull from Hofmeyr, South Africa, considered as a sub-Saharan African predecessor of the Upper Paleolithic Eurasians [51], should be better considered as the southernmost vestige of the Homo sapiens return to Africa. The knowledge of its mtDNA and Y-chromosome affiliations would be an invaluable test for our hypothesis. The rest of the human movements inside Africa, such as the Saharan occupation in the humid period by Eastern and Northern immigrations, or the retreat to sub-Saharan African southwards and to the Maghreb northwards in the desiccation period [52], or even the colonization of the Canary Islands, all faithfully reflect the scenarios deduced from the archaeological and anthropological information.
Also including this as a reference to the 'gap' in the human archaeological record for the time frame of 20 - 40kya.
quote: The origin and evolutionary history of modern humans is of considerable interest to paleoanthropologists and geneticists alike. Paleontological evidence suggests that recent humans originated and expanded from an African lineage that may have undergone demographic crises in the Late Pleistocene according to archaeological and genetic data. This would suggest that extant human populations derive from, and perhaps sample a restricted part of the genetic and morphological variation that was present in the Late Pleistocene. Crania that date to Marine Isotope Stage 3 should yield information pertaining to the level of Late Pleistocene human phenotypic diversity and its evolution in modern humans. The Nazlet Khater (NK) and Hofmeyr (HOF) crania from Egypt and South Africa, together with penecontemporaneous specimens from the Peştera cu Oase in Romania, permit preliminary assessment of variation among modern humans from geographically disparate regions at this time. Morphometric and morphological comparisons with other Late Pleistocene modern human specimens, and with 23 recent human population samples, reveal that elevated levels of variation are present throughout the Late Pleistocene. Comparison of Holocene and Late Pleistocene craniometric variation through resampling analyses supports hypotheses derived from genetic data suggesting that present phenotypic variation may represent only a restricted part of Late Pleistocene human diversity. The Nazlet Khater, Hofmeyr, and Oase specimens provide a unique glimpse of that diversity.
posted
^ I am unsure what point you trying to express with that post. I would doubt that Hofmeyr wasn't African for the same reason I would doubt kiffian was Eurasian even if Kiffian clusters cranially with Iberomaurusian. The ancient North African and Kiffian/Tenerian limb proportions are worlds apart. The fact that Hofmeyr was found in South Africa is another indication it's probably local.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ I am unsure what point you trying to express with that post. I would doubt that Hofmeyr wasn't African for the same reason I would doubt kiffian was Eurasian even if Kiffian clusters cranially with Iberomaurusian. The ancient North African and Kiffian/Tenerian limb proportions are worlds apart. The fact that Hofmeyr was found in South Africa is another indication it's probably local.
This is more of a post reflecting the ongoing analysis of human remains in and outside of Africa and the LACK of human remains and archaeological evidence from the time period 20 - KYA. Hence they used the only remains that were available in order to extrapolate what population diversity existed at the time. The key is that because of this lack of remains in Africa and elsewhere there are a lot of attempts to 'fill in the gaps' using various comparative methods and extrapolation via modeling. This all feeds into the ongoing research and understanding around OOA migrations and how various parts of Africa were populated. And in terms of North Africa the issue is even bigger because of the Sahara which drives most theories concerning population movements along the coast via Eurasia or the Levant. It also ties in to the historical traditions of identifying 'racial types' based on stone technologies, pottery and other artifacts (but not human remains) which is debunked in many ways but there are still remnants of that ideology in the current literature.
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quote:Originally posted by the Ish Gebor: It's like asking who is more African American.
So, as an outsider I can just put on a blue turban and claim to have as many Central Saharan ancestors as Tuareg in the Fezzan? Don't be a sore loser. Dark skinned living Berbers didn't universally turn out to be what you thought they were in their genomes.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the Ish Gebor: It's like asking who is more African American.
So, as an outsider I can just put on a blue turban and claim to have as many Central Saharan ancestors as Tuareg in the Fezzan? Don't be a sore loser. Dark skinned living Berbers didn't universally turn out to be what you thought they were in their genomes.
Who is to say who's the "real Berber" and who's not?
Mosaic With Hunting Scenes, Garamantes.
Roman (3rd century A.D.)
Mosaic, 270 x 370 cm.
Musée National du Bardo, Tunis.
The Image of the Black in Western Art Research Project and Photo Archive, W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research, Harvard University
"The findings challenge a view dating back to Roman accounts that the Garamantes consisted of barbaric nomads and troublemakers on the edge of the Roman Empire.'"
quote:Originally posted by the Ish Gebor: It's like asking who is more African American.
So, as an outsider I can just put on a blue turban and claim to have as many Central Saharan ancestors as Tuareg in the Fezzan? Don't be a sore loser. Dark skinned living Berbers didn't universally turn out to be what you thought they were in their genomes.
For lay readers who are confused and who don't understand why I keep hammering on this point. See here:
4 out of 5 of these E-M81 carrying Zenata Berber males are predominantly West/Central African in their overall genome. Notice that I said "E-M81 carrying". These people have dark skin, carry the traditional 'black Maghreni' line E-M81, but they are predominantly West/Central African in overall ancestry (as opposed to Maghrebi). They also clearly don't owe most of their dark skin to the first E-M81 carriers (these alleles are now largely displaced by light skin alleles from Europe and the Middle East and dark skin alleles from elsewhere in Africa).
Also, if you talk to these people or ask their elders about them, they might not have any memory of this because their lineage may be traced paternally.
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An article I've already cited a couple of thread pages ago. But people just don't seem to read any new data that may not sit well with them or that requires time and paying attention. It's often comment first, read later.. or not at all.
quote:Originally posted by the Ish Gebor: It's like asking who is more African American.
So, as an outsider I can just put on a blue turban and claim to have as many Central Saharan ancestors as Tuareg in the Fezzan? Don't be a sore loser. Dark skinned living Berbers didn't universally turn out to be what you thought they were in their genomes.
For lay readers who are confused and who don't understand why I keep hammering on this point. See here:
4 out of 5 of these E-M81 carrying Zenata Berber males are predominantly West/Central African in their overall genome. Notice that I said "E-M81 carrying". These people have dark skin, carry the traditional 'black Maghreni' line E-M81, but they are predominantly West/Central African in overall ancestry (as opposed to Maghrebi). They also clearly don't owe most of their dark skin to the first E-M81 carriers (these alleles are now largely displaced by light skin alleles from Europe and the Middle East and dark skin alleles from elsewhere in Africa).
Also, if you talk to these people or ask their elders about them, they might not have any memory of this because their lineage may be traced paternally.
Or it could be that the westward expansion of M81 signals the corresponding expansion of Berber languages which also impacted populations in the South Western Maghreb and Sahel who already had significant West African ancestry. Meaning West African ancestry should be on a North South gradient with obvious overlaps in some "Berber" groups. Which only makes sense given not only the North/South interaction between West Africa and the Sahara but also the once more expansive spread Berber languages into areas now called West Africa proper. Senegal being the namesake of said Zenaga/Zenata berbers.
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How long ago would you say this interaction happened? Notice that my comment about Tuareg also applies here. These Zenata Berbers' SSA ancestry ranges from roughly 10-80%. IF your scenario describes an old interaction between incoming Berber speakers and the southwestern Maghreb, why are the proportions of these ancestry components not more evened out? In other words, why does SSA ancestry among Zenata Berbers seem to conform to this observation:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: @typeZeiss
I'm just reporting what the data says. If you have data supporting a different view, feel free to share it. This is the sample I was referring to a moment ago.
Quote: "Different Mozabite individuals within our sample had different estimates of sub-Saharan African ancestry proportions, with a majority at close to 20%, but several individuals having a somewhat higher fraction. Exploration of the causes of this variation (Figure 7) revealed a systematic tendency for those individuals with higher proportions of sub-Saharan African ancestry to have large (tens of megabases) segments in their genome with an African origin. Such large segments are only consistent with admixture within the last 20–30 generations, showing the admixture process has continued into more recent times. In fact, the individual with the highest estimated proportion (75%) of sub-Saharan African ancestry had at least one inferred non-European chromosome throughout virtually their entire genome (Figure 7), consistent with admixture in the last generation, and demonstrating that the admixture process continues today in the Mozabite population."
Also, the yellow component that corresponds to E-M81 is related to northeast African ancestry, but only a very long time ago. This is why I came to this conclusion. The first Berber speakers, on the other hand, are much younger and date to the early/mid holocene.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Senegal being the namesake of said Zenaga/Zenata berbers. [/QB]
Senegal is named after the Senegal River, the etymology of which is contested. One popular theory (proposed by David Boilat in 1853) is that it stems from the Wolof phrase sunu gaal, which means "our canoe" (or pirogue), resulting from a miscommunication between 15th-century Portuguese sailors and Wolof fishermen. The "our canoe" theory has been popularly embraced in modern Senegal for its charm. It is frequently used in appeals to national solidarity (e.g. "we're all in the same canoe"), frequently heard in the media.[citation needed]
Modern historians believe the name probably refers to the Sanhaja, Berbers who lived on the northern side of the river. A competing theory is that it derives from the medieval town of "Sanghana" (also spelled as Isenghan, Asengan, Singhanah), described by the Arab geographer al-Bakri in 1068 as located by the mouth of the river. Some Serer people from the south believe the river's name is derived from the compound of the Serer term Sene (from Roge Sene, Supreme Deity in Serer religion) and O Gal (meaning "body of water").
This chapter will analyse the leadership of Yusuf ibn Tashfin from the genealogical standpoint. As mentioned above, he was a Lamtuna Sanhaja Berber, although the sources sometimes refer to him and his tribe as being of Himyari origin, from the branch of the southern Arabs. The reasons for this discursive justification are related to the non-Arab rulers' need for legitimacy in the Islamic world and to a textual tradition that originated in the East and moved westwards and that was used in specific contexts. As we shall see, the decisive factor in this case was the Almoravid conquest of al-Andalus.
Once they had obtained power, the Almoravids recognised the ʿAbbasid caliphate and considered themselves to be its representatives in the West. At the same time, they developed a complex relationship with the ‘ulama’ (scholars) – at that time, mostly Andalusis – with regard to the latter's use of religious discourse as a means of achieving legitimacy.6
There is a considerable Arab historiographical heritage concerning the origins of the Berbers. The question of Himyar and its relationship with some Berber tribes must be placed within this corpus of classical traditions that advocate the Berbers' oriental origin,18 with a significant portion focusing on Yemen as the place of origin of the population of North Africa and linking the latter to the southern Arab tribes.19 This material was analysed by Harry T. Norris, who, discussing the “Himyari myth” and its relationship to the origin of the Almoravids, showed the link between the tales on the subject preserved in Arabic sources and older traditions, in which even Alexander the Great plays an important role
---Genealogy and Knowledge in Muslim Societies: Understanding the Past edited by Sarah Bowen Savant, Helena de Felipe
quote:" ...in the old sources the terms Berber, Sanhaja, Massufa, Lamtuna and Tuareg are often used interchangeably"
--Marq de Villiers and Sheila Hirtle ( 2009). Timbuktu: The Sahara's Fabled city of Gold, p. 271
quote:The history of the people of Sanhaja Berber and Arab blood who inhabit Western Sahara goes back hundreds of years. In the XIth century, a confederation of tribes, the "veiled Sanhaja", formed the Almoravid State. The Almoravids were pious Sanhaja marabouts , who left the Sahara to go north where they conquered Morocco. Then there was a split; one faction returned south to the desert while the other crossed the Mediterranean, invaded Andalusia, settling in large parts of Spain, as well a in the present Maghreb. They founded Marrakesh and other centres and there was a great flowering of culture during their reign. However they lost contact with the country of their origin and their former way of life.
quote:With regard to the formation of the vehicular Songhay B: Interesting explanations might be provided for the presence of Songhay in Tabelbala (near Sijilmasa, an ancient terminus for the medieval caravan trade on a par with Tunis or Tripoli); and likewise for the use of Songhay by tribes such as the Igdalen (who are marabouts of Sanhaja origin and seem to have arrived in the Aďr region around the 11th century). Nevertheless, the possibility of relationships between the eastern Berber tribes (cf. Massu fa) with what may have been Proto-Songhay populations in the premedieval Saharan area should not be ignored.
--Robert Nicolaď Language Contact, Areality, and History: the Songhay Question Revisited1
Institut Universitaire de France - Université de Nice
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: How long ago would you say this interaction happened? Notice that my comment about Tuareg also applies here. These Zenata Berbers' SSA ancestry ranges from roughly 10-80%. IF your scenario describes an old interaction between incoming Berber speakers and the southwestern Maghreb, why are the proportions of these ancestry components not more evened out? In other words, why does SSA ancestry among Zenata Berbers seem to conform to this observation:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: @typeZeiss
I'm just reporting what the data says. If you have data supporting a different view, feel free to share it. This is the sample I was referring to a moment ago.
Quote: "Different Mozabite individuals within our sample had different estimates of sub-Saharan African ancestry proportions, with a majority at close to 20%, but several individuals having a somewhat higher fraction. Exploration of the causes of this variation (Figure 7) revealed a systematic tendency for those individuals with higher proportions of sub-Saharan African ancestry to have large (tens of megabases) segments in their genome with an African origin. Such large segments are only consistent with admixture within the last 20–30 generations, showing the admixture process has continued into more recent times. In fact, the individual with the highest estimated proportion (75%) of sub-Saharan African ancestry had at least one inferred non-European chromosome throughout virtually their entire genome (Figure 7), consistent with admixture in the last generation, and demonstrating that the admixture process continues today in the Mozabite population."
Also, the yellow component that corresponds to E-M81 is related to northeast African ancestry, but only a very long time ago. This is why I came to this conclusion. The first Berber speakers, on the other hand, are much younger and date to the early/mid holocene.
I don't see this as a problem though. Even if we rule out M81 as a signal of Berber language expansion, the same idea still applies. The Southern Sahara Sahel zone is an East/West highway for Migrations in Africa and on the Southwestern end of this highway you would expect more West African lineages. The question becomes how to identify the source population that arrived in this region and whether they carried mainly "Eurasian" lineages (I hate that but for sake of argument I will use it), predominantly other African lineages or some combination of both.
And along with the East West migration corridor there has always been a North South corridor from West Africa to North Central/North West Africa. So it doesn't come as a shock that these lineages are found in Mozabites even very recently. The current flood of Western African refugees to Europe is simply the most recent example of long standing movements of populations in West Africa to the North.
quote: Heterozygosity among the seven populations decreases with distance from southern Africa, consistent with an expansion of humans from that region (21). The Namibian San population carried the highest number of derived heterozygotes, ∼2.39 million per sample, followed closely by the Mbuti Pygmies (SI Appendix, Table S1 and Fig. S5). The North African Mozabites carry more heterozygotes than the OOA populations in our dataset (2 million) but substantially fewer than the sub-Saharan samples, likely reflecting a complex history of an OOA migration, followed by reentry into North Africa and subsequent recent gene flow with neighboring African populations
That said, on the male side the Mozabites primarily carry M81, which is an African lineage. The Eurasian component seems primarily to be found on the female MTDNA side, where you see more "Eurasian" lineages with M1 and U6 African lineages. And we have previously discussed this as mainly a male driven migration scenario from East to West and into North Africa that produces this result.
posted
^I thought you wanted to introduce an alternative scenario when you said "or it could be ...". But if E-M81 can predate the migration of the first Berber speakers in your scenario, and if genetic contact between West/Central Africans and Berber speakers is also ongoing in your scenario, we're saying the same thing for the most part.
As far as this thread goes, it means that:
1) E-M81 carried at high frequencies in very dark skinned modern day Berbers is generally a vestige of past ancestry in the region that doesn't peak in their overall genome like it peaks in the overall genome of most northern Maghrebis (e.g. Henn et al's Tunisian sample is almost exclusively made up of this component whereas it only seems to be of secondary importance in Berbers who are very dark skinned, like some of the E-M81 carrying Zenata individuals).
2) West/Central African—NOT northeast African or old, local Maghrebi—dark skin alleles primarily explain the dark skin of very dark skinned modern day Berbers because their dark skin seems to covary to a large degree with West/Central African ancestry. Again, this only applies to living Berbers, not necessarily the ancient ones.
3) We have yet to find a Maghrebi sample with very dark skin that hasn't been influenced recently by West/Central Africans. In other words, I've yet to see genomes from dark skinned Berber populations that look like they're filled with dark skin alleles that have mostly an early/mid holocene East African (e.g. first Berber speakers) and old Maghrebi (e.g. first Iberomaurusians and Aterians) source. In my view, they no longer exist. But I'm open to being proven wrong.
4) Due to point 1, 2, 3 above, modern day dark skinned Berbers aren't what we thought they were. Among other changes they've undergone, their recent northeast African ancestry (which included dark skin alleles from northeast Africa) has been dwarfed by ongoing West/Central African and old pre-existing Maghrebi contributions.
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posted
Wait, so if the darker skin in modern Maghrebis might be the product of relatively recent admixture with West Africans, what about the Siwa Berbers in Egypt? Are the dark-skinned ones among them also the product of recent SSA admixture like their Maghrebi counterparts?
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: Wait, so if the darker skin in modern Maghrebis might be the product of relatively recent admixture with West Africans, what about the Siwa Berbers in Egypt? Are the dark-skinned ones among them also the product of recent SSA admixture like their Maghrebi counterparts?
I would expect dark skin in modern Egyptians (including Siwa Berbers), to covary partly with 'Ethio-Somali'. The Maghrebi equivalent of Ethio-Somali is the Maghrebi component. However, while the Ethio-Somali component, in East Africa CONTRIBUTES to dark skin, the Maghrebi component does NOT contribute to dark skin as much in the Maghreb. Hence, why Berbers that look like this can have an almost exclusive proportion of the Maghrebi component (see Henn et al's Tunisian sample).
On the other hand, having a large proportion of Ethio-Somali in Somalis can STILL result in a very dark skinned Somali. This paradox of relatedness between both components, but implied lighter skin in one (Maghrebi component) and implied darker skin in the other (Ethio-Somali component) can be reconciled if, as I alluded to here , the Maghrebi component is only PARTLY African (to a lesser degree than Ethio-Somali is).
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quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: Wait, so if the darker skin in modern Maghrebis might be the product of relatively recent admixture with West Africans, what about the Siwa Berbers in Egypt? Are the dark-skinned ones among them also the product of recent SSA admixture like their Maghrebi counterparts?
The Siwan aren't the only Berbers at Northeast Africa.
"The Berber-Abidiya region is situated just south of the fifth Nile cataract in Sudan. This project, a joint mission with the Sudanese National Corporation for Antiquities and Museums (NCAM), is focussed on the late Kushite city of Dangeil (third century BC – fourth century AD) and associated cemeteries."
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^ those pictures are quite arbitrary
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Your pictures are arbitrary.
they are supposed to be
Those aren't quite "arbitrary. Those are what people on average look like at the south of North Africa". But it doesn't sit well with you, I can tell. And that is a good thing.
Your constant bigotry is arbitrary. What are they supposed to be, North Africans from the South part of North Africa, Morocco. lol
I bet you're going to sniff the internet right now, to supposedly counteract this. lol But it will not help you. It will be a waste of time.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: Wait, so if the darker skin in modern Maghrebis might be the product of relatively recent admixture with West Africans, what about the Siwa Berbers in Egypt? Are the dark-skinned ones among them also the product of recent SSA admixture like their Maghrebi counterparts?
I would expect dark skin in modern Egyptians (including Siwa Berbers), to covary partly with 'Ethio-Somali'. The Maghrebi equivalent of Ethio-Somali is the Maghrebi component. However, while the Ethio-Somali component, in East Africa CONTRIBUTES to dark skin, the Maghrebi component does NOT contribute to dark skin as much in the Maghreb. Hence, why Berbers that look like this can have an almost exclusive proportion of the Maghrebi component (see Henn et al's Tunisian sample).
On the other hand, having a large proportion of Ethio-Somali in Somalis can STILL result in a very dark skinned Somali. This paradox of relatedness between both components, but implied lighter skin in one (Maghrebi component) and implied darker skin in the other (Ethio-Somali component) can be reconciled if, as I alluded to here , the Maghrebi component is only PARTLY African (to a lesser degree than Ethio-Somali is).
What do you mean by "Hence, why Berbers that look like thiscan have an almost exclusive proportion of the Maghrebi component (see Henn et al's Tunisian sample)."
I mean, what exactly is that exclusive component which makes them more "unique".
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You mean to tell me you still don't know that some of Henn et al 2012's samples are almost exclusively made up of a component that peaks in the Maghreb?
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Your pictures are arbitrary.
they are supposed to be [/qb][/QUOTE]Those aren't quite "arbitrary. Those are what people on average look like at the south of North Africa". [/QUOTE]
Of all the thousands of pictures of North Africans available why would you pick this one where the shadows are so dark you can hardly see the features?
The selection is arbitrary, you found a picture that you like and said it represents the average North Africa. There is no science behind that. The largest population cities in the Maghreb are Casablanca and Rabat not South Morocco. The people on average are around half Eurasian with mtDNA uncommon to other parts of Africa and it doesn't matter how they look
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