quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Who is to say who's the "real Berber" and who's not?
Mosaic With Hunting Scenes, Garamantes.
Roman (3rd century A.D.)
Mosaic, 270 x 370 cm.
Musée National du Bardo, Tunis.
The Image of the Black in Western Art Research Project and Photo Archive, W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research, Harvard University
"The findings challenge a view dating back to Roman accounts that the Garamantes consisted of barbaric nomads and troublemakers on the edge of the Roman Empire.'"
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^ those pictures are quite arbitrary
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Your pictures are arbitrary.
they are supposed to be
Ish Gebor's pictures are less arbitrary than yours because instead of cherry picking individuals here and there, he posts pictures of entire groups of people.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^I thought you wanted to introduce an alternative scenario when you said "or it could be ...". But if E-M81 can predate the migration of the first Berber speakers in your scenario, and if genetic contact between West/Central Africans and Berber speakers is also ongoing in your scenario, we're saying the same thing for the most part.
As far as this thread goes, it means that:
1) E-M81 carried at high frequencies in very dark skinned modern day Berbers is generally a vestige of past ancestry in the region that doesn't peak in their overall genome like it peaks in the overall genome of most northern Maghrebis (e.g. Henn et al's Tunisian sample is almost exclusively made up of this component whereas it only seems to be of secondary importance in Berbers who are very dark skinned, like some of the E-M81 carrying Zenata individuals).
2) West/Central African—NOT northeast African or old, local Maghrebi—dark skin alleles primarily explain the dark skin of very dark skinned modern day Berbers because their dark skin seems to covary to a large degree with West/Central African ancestry. Again, this only applies to living Berbers, not necessarily the ancient ones.
3) We have yet to find a Maghrebi sample with very dark skin that hasn't been influenced recently by West/Central Africans. In other words, I've yet to see genomes from dark skinned Berber populations that look like they're filled with dark skin alleles that have mostly an early/mid holocene East African (e.g. first Berber speakers) and old Maghrebi (e.g. first Iberomaurusians and Aterians) source. In my view, they no longer exist. But I'm open to being proven wrong.
4) Due to point 1, 2, 3 above, modern day dark skinned Berbers aren't what we thought they were. Among other changes they've undergone, their recent northeast African ancestry (which included dark skin alleles from northeast Africa) has been dwarfed by ongoing West/Central African and old pre-existing Maghrebi contributions.
Thanks for confirming what I guess you've been saying all along. So tell me, do you think that a very similar situation took place in Southwest Asia i.e. Arabia & the Levant?? I surmise this based on DNA samples of Bronze Age Bab edh-Dhra as opposed to samples of modern peoples in the same region as well as your assessment of 'basal Eurasian' Neolithic forebears.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^ those pictures are quite arbitrary
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Your pictures are arbitrary.
they are supposed to be
Ish Gebor's pictures are less arbitrary than yours because instead of cherry picking individuals here and there, he posts pictures of entire groups of people.
Again, posting pictures that are cast in heavy shadow from a location that is not from one of the main population centers does not represent the average North African. It is pure cherry picking
The pictures I posted of two Tuareg was not supposed to represent an average. It's two arbitrary pictures of two Tuaregs for comparison. Ish Gebor as usual didn't understand the intent, and your misunderstanding is on top of his, twice as bad
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Assuming you're talking about change in the Middle East analogous to ongoing West/Central African migration to the Maghreb, yes. Waves of people carrying ancestry that seems to have originated in the Caucasus region or further north changed the genetic composition of the Middle East. This is why we find higher levels of African lineages in more isolated regions in the Middle East compared to more accessible regions.
quote:The dissimilarity and lack of continuity of the Early Neolithic Aegean genomes to most modern Turkish and Levantine populations, in contrast to those of early central and southwestern European farmers and modern Mediterraneans, is best explained by subsequent gene flow into Anatolia from still unknown sources.
We've discussed the isolated Dead Sea Jordanian population with elevated levels of African ancestry many times in the past. Since then there have been more regions that may to fit this picture. For instance, this sample from the eastern Arabian coast.
If you can look past the Eurocentric mumbo jumbo in that abstract, the 30% L lineages they have stands out from all Middle Eastern samples we have, with the exception of some Yemeni samples.
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posted
^ So it's precisely what I've always thought about Southwest Asia. By the way, that abstract about the Saudi Arabian genome is hilarious. Their hypothesis is the typical convoluted back-migration theory that one expects of Eurocentrics. So L3 is now Eurasian?! LOL For a long time experts were adamant that M and N clades are Eurasian while their parent L3 clade is African but now that its found in Arabia it's African too.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^ those pictures are quite arbitrary
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Your pictures are arbitrary.
they are supposed to be
Ish Gebor's pictures are less arbitrary than yours because instead of cherry picking individuals here and there, he posts pictures of entire groups of people.
Again, posting pictures that are cast in heavy shadow from a location that is not from one of the main population centers does not represent the average North African. It is pure cherry picking
The pictures I posted of two Tuareg was not supposed to represent an average. It's two arbitrary pictures of two Tuaregs for comparison. Ish Gebor as usual didn't understand the intent, and your misunderstanding is on top of his, twice as bad
Shut up, I post picture of regions and people I know.
The Berber confederation consists out of many different ethnic Berber groups. And the ethic name is not even Tuareg. lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I truly would love to see the genetic composition of the guanche mummy.
quote:
Más de cien años ha permanecido la momia guanche mejor conservada que existe en el Museo de Antropología y de allí salió ayer para llegar a su nueva casa, el Museo Arqueológico Nacional (MAN), donde será la estrella del nuevo espacio dedicado a la prehistoria canaria.
Con un poema guanche despidieron en el Museo Nacional de Antropología de Madrid a la momia del Barranco de Herques, hallada en 1776 en Tenerife, tras lo que se inició su traslado al Arqueológico con un estricto protocolo de seguridad para evitar su deterioro.
A su llegada al MAN, seis operarios de una empresa especializada en transporte de obras de arte, embutidos en monos de protección y mascarillas, realizaron el traspaso de la frágil momia de la caja en la que fue trasladada a una vitrina especialmente diseñada para mantener las condiciones de conservación idóneas.
Hace unos meses ya se había hecho un simulacro del traslado y colocación de la momia, según explicó a Efe la conservadora jefe del Museo, Teresa Gómez Espinosa, que relató cómo el proceso ha sido muy complejo porque la momia es muy delicada.
La vitrina que la albergará a partir de ahora ha sido especialmente diseñada para mantener las condiciones de conservación idóneas e incorpora complejos dispositivos para análisis y mediciones en su interior con el fin de evitar el riesgo de contaminación por compuestos orgánicos volátiles o por biodeterioro.
Los momentos en los que la sacaron de la vitrina y el de instalación en la nueva fueron los más críticos, indicó la conservadora jefe, que consideró un éxito la operación, en la que se siguió un preciso protocolo debido a la fragilidad de la momia, muy sensible a las alteraciones.
Un embalaje muy sofisticado, realizado con un molde específicamente para el traslado, protegió a la momia durante el proceso para evitar peligrosos cambios ambientales y de luz.
«Es un ejemplar único», indicó a Efe el director del MAN, Andrés Carretero, que explicó que la operación llevada a cabo ayer es «como trasladar Las Meninas o El Guernica, no puede haber un solo fallo porque puede suponer un daño irreparable para la pieza".
Por ello, señaló, se hizo con todas las garantías y el personal técnico necesario tras los análisis realizados por el personal del Instituto de Patrimonio Cultural y un ensayo de todo el proceso.
Carretero está convencido de que la momia será un atractivo para todo el público y especialmente para los niños pero destacó el interés del museo en completar así la muestra del desarrollo cultural de la actual España ya que Canarias era la única Comunidad Autónoma que no estaba representada.
Ruth Maicas, del departamento de Prehistoria del MAN, indicó que es muy difícil conocer la fecha de la que data la momia y consideró que queda mucho por investigar en la antropología e historia canaria.
Testimonio de cultura prehispánica
Esta momia, de un hombre adulto y que tras su hallazgo fue enviada al rey Carlos III para el Real Gabinete de Historia Natural por su excepcional estado de conservación, es testimonio de uno de los rasgos más llamativos de la cultura prehispánica en las islas de Tenerife, Gran Canaria y La Palma, que momificaban a miembros destacados de la sociedad y los enterraban en tumbas colectivas en cuevas de difícil acceso, recordó Maicas.
El cuerpo se cubría con pieles de cabra u oveja, y en Gran Canaria se empleaban también tejidos de junco de palma.
El sistema de momificación que se practicaba en las islas Canarias era diferente al de otras culturas y deja visibles más restos del fallecido.
El nuevo espacio dedicado a la arqueología canaria se completa con piezas cerámicas, textiles, ídolos, lascas y otros materiales, además de gráficas, mapas y un audiovisual, que acercan al visitante a la sociedad prehispánica insular.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Your pictures are arbitrary.
they are supposed to be
Those aren't quite "arbitrary. Those are what people on average look like at the south of North Africa". [/QUOTE]
Of all the thousands of pictures of North Africans available why would you pick this one where the shadows are so dark you can hardly see the features?
The selection is arbitrary, you found a picture that you like and said it represents the average North Africa. There is no science behind that. The largest population cities in the Maghreb are Casablanca and Rabat not South Morocco. The people on average are around half Eurasian with mtDNA uncommon to other parts of Africa and it doesn't matter how they look [/QB][/QUOTE]
quote: "however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood"
--Brenna Henn Published: January 12, 2012DOI: 10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397:
"Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations"
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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You mean to tell me you still don't know that some of Henn et al 2012's samples are almost exclusively made up of a component that peaks in the Maghreb?
That's not it, what I mean is what specifically peaks. I know there differentiation amongst groups.
David Comas never really explained what this specific component is. He explains that it did evolve in Africa and that the descendants with that component returned to Africa.
quote: According to David Comas, coordinator of the study and researcher at the Institute for Evolutionary Biology (CSIC-UPF), "some of the questions we wanted to answer were whether today's inhabitants are direct descendants of the populations with the oldest archaeological remains in the region, dating back fifty thousand years, or whether they are descendants of the Neolithic populations in the Middle East which introduced agriculture to the region around eight thousand years ago. We also wondered if there had been any genetic exchange between the North African populations and the neighbouring regions and if so, when these took place.
A native genetic component defines North Africans
To answer these questions, the researchers analyzed around 800,000 genetic markers, distributed throughout the entire genome in 125 North African individuals belonging to seven representative populations in the whole region, and the information obtained was compared with the information from the neighbouring populations.
The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component which defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers, shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of either the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, or descendants of the most recent Neolithic populations.
The ancestors of modern North Africans returned to Africa
The data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region.
You mean to tell me you still don't know that some of Henn et al 2012's samples are almost exclusively made up of a component that peaks in the Maghreb?
That's not it, what I mean is what specifically peaks. I know there differentiation amongst groups.
David Comas never really explained what this specific component is. He explains that it did evolve in Africa and that the descendants with that component returned to Africa.
quote: According to David Comas, coordinator of the study and researcher at the Institute for Evolutionary Biology (CSIC-UPF), "some of the questions we wanted to answer were whether today's inhabitants are direct descendants of the populations with the oldest archaeological remains in the region, dating back fifty thousand years, or whether they are descendants of the Neolithic populations in the Middle East which introduced agriculture to the region around eight thousand years ago. We also wondered if there had been any genetic exchange between the North African populations and the neighbouring regions and if so, when these took place.
A native genetic component defines North Africans
To answer these questions, the researchers analyzed around 800,000 genetic markers, distributed throughout the entire genome in 125 North African individuals belonging to seven representative populations in the whole region, and the information obtained was compared with the information from the neighbouring populations.
The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component which defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers, shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of either the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, or descendants of the most recent Neolithic populations.
The ancestors of modern North Africans returned to Africa
The data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region.
Here is the problem with these studies, they keep trying to enforce this notion that North Africa overall is one single ethnic population now and over time and that every population in North Africa can be traced back to one single monolithic population in the "Near East" which is nonsense. North Africa is a very large area and there are various populations with various migration histories over time and therefore trying to fit them into this model of some SINGLE migration event at one specific point of time is garbage. This is simply them still focusing on small isolated areas of North Africa as somehow representative of ALL of North Africa. Settlements in the Nile Valley for example have nothing to do with settlement in places like Northern Morocco and the Ibermaurisians. Yet they keep trying to convince us that these are the same singular population when they are not. The best way to look at it is that there were various refuge areas in and around the Sahara and that each population in each of these areas were impacted differently by migration events leading up to the last Saharan wet phase. The Iberomaurisans being close to the straits of gibraltar were a base population of Africans and likely recipients of migration from Europe along with possibly some migration from the Levant, whereas other populations elsewhere in North Africa were settled in other refuge areas with migrations from other parts of Africa proper.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: This is simply them still focusing on small isolated areas of North Africa as somehow representative of ALL of North Africa. Settlements in the Nile Valley for example have nothing to do with settlement in places like Northern Morocco and the Ibermaurisians. Yet they keep trying to convince us that these are the same singular population when they are not.
"North Africa" in anthropological terms usually means the Maghreb and not the Nile Valley or Sahel countries
This is the source article of the above text, they use seven different populations, not Ibermaurisians, Capsians or any old population. It's analysis of modern NA populations
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
David Comas never really explained what this specific component is. He explains that it did evolve in Africa and that the descendants with that component returned to Africa.
Oddly in the blog entry he didn't mention it. He's referring to, surprisingly, Neanderthal admixture. This is the research article:
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals
Federico Sánchez-Quinto equal contributor, Laura R. Botigué equal contributor, Sergi Civit, Conxita Arenas, María C. Ávila-Arcos, Carlos D. Bustamante, David Comas Carles Lalueza-Fox
Abstract
One of the main findings derived from the analysis of the Neandertal genome was the evidence for admixture between Neandertals and non-African modern humans. An alternative scenario is that the ancestral population of non-Africans was closer to Neandertals than to Africans because of ancient population substructure. Thus, the study of North African populations is crucial for testing both hypotheses. We analyzed a total of 780,000 SNPs in 125 individuals representing seven different North African locations and searched for their ancestral/derived state in comparison to different human populations and Neandertals. We found that North African populations have a significant excess of derived alleles shared with Neandertals, when compared to sub-Saharan Africans. This excess is similar to that found in non-African humans, a fact that can be interpreted as a sign of Neandertal admixture. Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations. Sub-Saharan populations are the only ones not affected by the admixture event with Neandertals.
Materials and Methods
To ascertain whether or not current North African populations show any signs of Neandertal admixture, we analyzed recently published data of 125 North African individuals genotyped with the Affymetrix 6.0 chip and accounting for 780,000 SNPs were analyzed [17]. Individuals are representative of seven different North African locations (Table 1) spanning from west to east. To have a broader coverage of Eurasia and to allow comparison with Sub-Saharan populations, African and Eurasian populations were included in the analysis
Overall, the correlation analysis and the f4 ancestry ratio statistic show that the North African component actually contributes to the signal of gene flow from Neandertals. Given that the North African autochthonous ancestry seems to be 12,000–40,000 years old [17], our hypothesis is that this ancestral population was descendant from the populations that first interbreed with Neandertals about ~37,000–86,000 years ago [18] somewhere in the Middle East. Nonetheless further analyses in populations around the contact areas are needed to confirm this hypothesis.
A previous study [26] observed that the similarity to Neandertals increases with distance from Africa and suggested this could be explained by SNP ascertainment bias plus a strong genetic drift in East Asian populations. Nonetheless more complex, population-biased, ascertainment schemes might have additional effects (i.e bottlenecks), but these are not expected to significantly increase the rate of false positives in admixture tests [31]. The Tunisian population has been reported to be a genetic isolate [17] so it is plausible that part of the signal detected is actually due to genetic drift. However, this should not affect the other North African groups in our study. Finally, given that SNP arrays are based on common alleles and probably the relevant admixture information is encoded within the rare and very rare alleles, the potential bias, if anything, will underestimate ancient hominid admixture signals, as shown in previous studies [2],[3].
With the current data, however, it is not possible to discard the ancient African substructure hypothesis [8]. Although ours and some previous results [9] tend to favor the admixture hypothesis as the most plausible one, we think that a complete clarification of this issue can only be achieved with a Neandertal high coverage genome, such as this recently achieved for Denisova [32]. This, and sequencing data of North African populations, especially those with a high autochthonous component, may help elucidate more precisely the interbreeding process with Neandertals. In any case, our results show that Neandertal genomic traces do not mark a division between African and non-Africans but rather a division between Sub-Saharan Africans and the rest of modern human groups, including those from North
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ So it's precisely what I've always thought about Southwest Asia. By the way, that abstract about the Saudi Arabian genome is hilarious. Their hypothesis is the typical convoluted back-migration theory that one expects of Eurocentrics. So L3 is now Eurasian?! LOL For a long time experts were adamant that M and N clades are Eurasian while their parent L3 clade is African but now that its found in Arabia it's African too.
Yep. Connecting L3 with a presumed genome-wide affinity, not finding evidence of this association and then going out of their way to see to it that they don't have to revise their assumption (by making an even bigger mess by claiming even more African variation) is a textbook example of circular reasoning.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: David Comas never really explained what this specific component is. He explains that it did evolve in Africa and that the descendants with that component returned to Africa.
Other than the descriptions given in the paper, what else, specifically, should he have explained?
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: So? Some of those same Arab authors said Egyptian Cops were 'black'. Presumably, these Copts were more consistently light brown back then, making it easier for Al-Jahiz to generalize this entire community as lighter skinned 'blacks'. Such a description obviously doesn't apply anymore to Copts in general. Can we say based on this description that any dark skinned man in modern Egypt owes his dark skin to those medieval Copts? Of course not. There have been all sort of darker skinned communities in Egypt since then, including recently migrated Nubians. It's no different in the Maghreb.
Those descriptions of medieval and Greek authors don't have a straightforward relevancy to all dark skin in the Maghreb today as modern day Berbers aren't straight forward descendants of the ancient people in the Maghreb.
Someone you describe as a 'black Berber' could have some ancestors with no ties to North Africa. And if you read the same Pliny and other texts you're mentioning, you would know that light skin is more ancient in the Maghreb than Barbary pirates.
So how can you make two convenient checkboxes of 'hybrid partial descendants of European slaves' and 'non hybrid black Berber'?
This is what I am telling you. When you read historians they say the original people of the area are black. This is universal. We know there were communities of Greeks, Romans and other Europeans in North Africa, even anciently. We know that the black out numbered the white, up until around the 1100s or so. We also know this coincides with the introduction of millions of white slaves. This shouldn't exclude voluntary migration, such as from Turkiye, Spain and some other places. Again, this is just based on historical accounts, as mentioned in my previous statement. But, when you get a chance you should visit Africa. Go to these places you google, and then ask the people themselves. The reality on the ground as opposed to the reality Google present to you is vastly different.
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quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:: The reality on the ground as opposed to the reality Google present to you is vastly different.
Just give it up, dude. Your habit of coming back with denial-fueled posts is legendary (we've been here before) and it's unhealthy for you.
^If you see modern day 'black Berbers', chances are, they are one of those hybrid individuals in the South Moroccan and other samples with a heightened spike of red and yellow ancestry. They seem to differ from light skinned Berbers only in having this additional spike, with the rest being more or less the same. 'Pure Berber' therefore has little to do with these these sampled individuals' dark skin.
The premise of your thread—that modern day 'black Berbers' are straightforward descendants of ancient dark skinned inhabitants of the Maghreb and that light skinned Berbers are the only hybrids—has no basis in reality beyond "my friends tell me".
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posted
So then are there any populations in North Africa that were sampled to show direct continuity with the original Berbers?
The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component which defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers, shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of either the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, or descendants of the most recent Neolithic populations.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: The premise of your thread—that modern day 'black Berbers' are straightforward descendants of ancient dark skinned inhabitants of the Maghreb and that light skinned Berbers are the only hybrids—has no basis in reality beyond "my friends tell me".
[/qb]
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posted
To make a human baby both sexes are needed(mommy and daddy). At least we are not into science fiction as yet. Since we get that out of the way. The oldest known genetic testing of North Africans was by Kefi et al(IIRC). Dated to about 12,000years ago. The mtDNA results came back primarily mtDNA H with traces of U and L(IIRC). Same as today. So...we can safely conclude that since these mtDNA still exist in North Africa today there is genetic continuity ...on the female side since early Neolithic. As for the males, PN2 M-35 is of African origin and NOT Arabian or middle Eastern origin. That is largely confirmed. This male haplogroup is dated to about at least 18,000 years ago. Thus here again we can ALSO conclude that on the male side there was genetic continuity since the Paleolithic.
So....when we get all that out of the way (lol)are there OLDER evidence of lack of continuity or continuity since the early Neolithic? Were these early Africans tested for PIGMENTATION? Do we know what color they were? But if I were a betting man I would say they were primarily black skinned since the light skin mutation has just occurred and these mutation had just started entering Europe from North Africa.
So As I responded to the OP. What is a black Berber? So since there is no such thing as a Black Berber(only Berbers who are indigenous to Africa) I assume they cannot test something that does not exist? And the thread is a non-starter.
Berbers are Africans and could be black or brown.
So what is a black Berber vs a white Berber?
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posted
Did not read the complete thread. Where is the chart from? It looks like SUPERVISED admixture mapping.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:: The reality on the ground as opposed to the reality Google present to you is vastly different.
Just give it up, dude. Your habit of coming back with denial-fueled posts is legendary (we've been here before) and it's unhealthy for you.
^If you see modern day 'black Berbers', chances are, they are one of those hybrid individuals in the South Moroccan and other samples with a heightened spike of red and yellow ancestry. They seem to differ from light skinned Berbers only in having this additional spike, with the rest being more or less the same. 'Pure Berber' therefore has little to do with these these sampled individuals' dark skin.
The premise of your thread—that modern day 'black Berbers' are straightforward descendants of ancient dark skinned inhabitants of the Maghreb and that light skinned Berbers are the only hybrids—has no basis in reality beyond "my friends tell me".
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quote:The most plausible explanation for the differences found between NW and NE Africa is the presence of a demographic corridor along the Nile Valley. This corridor might have allowed the contact between Egypt, East Africa, and the Near East; influencing only slightly the rest of NW Africa.
^While the authors may not know this, we know of course that East Africans did have a lot of influence on the Maghreb (e.g. the first Berber speakers). It's just that little mtDNA evidence of this influence survives because Maghrebis' East African mtDNA pool has largely been displaced. Modern Egyptians' East African mtDNA pool, on the other hand, hasn't been displaced. This shows that Eurasian admixture cannot fully explain why the Maghreb has little East African mtDNAs today (otherwise modern Egyptians would have lost these mtDNAs as well).
Another epic quote:
quote:Then, we aimed to test how the apportionment of the maternal genetic variance was distributed across North Africa when two groups were considered in a west-east axis. To perform this test, we divided the whole region along four sections that were roughly limited by the actual geopolitical boundaries in the region (Fig. 1B). Next, we performed a series of AMOVA analyses: in each new analysis the bor- der between the two groups was moved progressively eastwards. Results showed that the amount of genetic variation was maximal when the Eastern group was defined only by Egyptian and Sudanese populations.
^Translation: if you want to group North Africans according to how they're related, the most valid groupings are:
--all groups west of the Egyptian/Libyan border in one group, and --all groups east of the Egyptian/Libyan border in another group.
The vertical white line that is numbered '4' in the map below represents this genetic 'boundary' that has the best statistical fit.
The fact that modern Maghrebis have lost most of their Berber heritage plays a big role in why this western + Central North Africa grouping is supported by the mtDNA data.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Did not read the complete thread. Where is the chart from? It looks like SUPERVISED admixture mapping.
It's from Henn et al 2012. You probably don't recognize it because I omitted the other Ks to keep it simple.
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You know all those rants about 'indigenous Berber H' are invalid now, right? All those rants about 'Europeans are a subset of African mtDNA H' down the drain. Lol.
posted
Nice! Holding back on us at ES young man. Let me look into it.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Got to hand to you bro I missed this one. Playing close to the chest. huh?! Not sharing?! Time for a new thread on ESR!! So, mtDNA H existed in Africa since about 20,000years ago. It replaced mtDNA hg-U IN Europe since the early Neolithic. The so called SSA component is NOT due to slavery commencing during the Neolithic. Looks like the SSA brought the new technology from SSA Sudan to North Africa. Nice. Great paper. This backs up Sergi, Coon and others. Neolithic originated from Sudan area. SSA from Sudan bringing new technology to the North And Europe.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Thanks but I can't take credit as I'm just reposting it. But I love your mtDNA storytelling. Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Understand what they are doing in the section called - Statistical and phylogenetic analysis. Are they calculating Fst based upon FREQUENCY which is an age old game they played in the past that we know now is useless. They are saying modern North African are MORE genetically diversed than 20,000 North Africans. Reason? Why? How? Tic! Toc! Tic! Toc! Hint...(Sudanese Neolithics). But I need to read the whole paper including Supplementals. Will post more when I get time.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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First read the paper. 2nd look at the timeline. you will catch on......
mtDNA H only entered durign the Neolithic. we all know that. MtDNa U was the dominant lineage. You don't believe me? Wanta me to cite sources? wink! Stick with me I will take you places.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Thanks but I can't take credit as I'm just reposting it. But I love your mtDNA storytelling. Don't go into genetics though. Don't quit your dayjob.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I'm wrapping up. Not much to say here anymore as I'm mostly repeating myself on the topic of modern day Berbers. But I have to hand it to you. That was the fastest spin I've seen someone put on inconvenient aDNA. You didn't even flinch.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
lol. The pattern is clear. It all is coming together. As stated in the other threads on Canary Islanders. R1b-M269 is probably African in origin. EVEN THE AUTHOR SPECULATED. I speculated about that beginning several years ago. Now time is proving me right. MtDNA H was present in Africa over 20,000years ago. long before its appearance in "Europe". Plus it is older and more diverse in Africa compared to Europe. MtDNA U is primarily the Paleolithic lineage in Europe NOT H. As stated I would NOT be surprised to find R1b-M269 in aDNA in North West Africa or throughout the Maghgreb.. This is not rocket science
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:The most plausible explanation for the differences found between NW and NE Africa is the presence of a demographic corridor along the Nile Valley. This corridor might have allowed the contact between Egypt, East Africa, and the Near East; influencing only slightly the rest of NW Africa.
^While the authors may not know this, we know of course that East Africans did have a lot of influence on the Maghreb (e.g. the first Berber speakers). It's just that little mtDNA evidence of this influence survives because Maghrebis' East African mtDNA pool has largely been displaced. Modern Egyptians' East African mtDNA pool, on the other hand, hasn't been displaced. This shows that Eurasian admixture cannot fully explain why the Maghreb has little East African mtDNAs today (otherwise modern Egyptians would have lost these mtDNAs as well).
Another epic quote:
quote:Then, we aimed to test how the apportionment of the maternal genetic variance was distributed across North Africa when two groups were considered in a west-east axis. To perform this test, we divided the whole region along four sections that were roughly limited by the actual geopolitical boundaries in the region (Fig. 1B). Next, we performed a series of AMOVA analyses: in each new analysis the bor- der between the two groups was moved progressively eastwards. Results showed that the amount of genetic variation was maximal when the Eastern group was defined only by Egyptian and Sudanese populations.
^Translation: if you want to group North Africans according to how they're related, the most valid groupings are:
--all groups west of the Egyptian/Libyan border in one group, and --all groups east of the Egyptian/Libyan border in another group.
The vertical white line that is numbered '4' in the map below represents this genetic 'boundary' that has the best statistical fit.
The fact that modern Maghrebis have lost most of their Berber heritage plays a big role in why this western + Central North Africa grouping is supported by the mtDNA data.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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They probably resemble the original Berbers better, but it's difficult to tease out how much of their East African ancestry is specifically inherited from the original Berber speakers.
The Tuareg sample from the Fezzan, for instance, fits less easily in the western + central North African grouping because they have more recent (holocene) East African mtDNA lineages than most other samples in this grouping.
But, as the article points out, the Fezzan is in direct contact with the eastern Sahara via trade routes. In fact, the formative phase of the Tuareg population included migrations from northeast Africa. The same applies to the Siwa Oasis.
Since you're knowledgeable about North Africa, you may already know about this. Apparently, the Tuareg have a cultural memory that their silversmith caste and some other castes came from East Africa.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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The Tuareg sample from the Fezzan, for instance, fits less easily in the western + central North African grouping because they have more recent (holocene) East African mtDNA lineages than most other samples in this grouping.
The mtDNA of the Tuareg of Fezzan LIbya is 61% H1 the highest frequency in the world
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Since you're knowledgeable about North Africa, you may already know about this. Apparently, the Tuareg have a cultural memory that their silversmith caste and some other castes came from East Africa.
I've refrained from posting things like this in this thread because I'm not into the "my African friend told me" 'proof' that inevitably gets spammed once you post things like this.
But what I find interesting is that the OP repeatedly talks about others' supposed lack of familiarity with the 'black Berber' populations, but he's silent about the not so flattering ideas about race that are prevalent among Tuareg and other so-called 'black Berbers'.
The OP wants to cram Magrhebi variations into 'black Berber' and 'partially Euro slave hybrid' categories. He claims to base this on 'insider knowledge' from Tuareg and likes to emphasize that he learned this 'knowledge' from Tuareg 'friends'. He also justifies dismissing genetic data because he can't reconcile it with his anecdotal 'proof'.
However, in the real world, Tuareg elders tasked with protecting and passing down their traditions seem to have no idea what the OP is talking about:
quote:Before their arrival, other people originating in faraway Yemen, Ethiopia, archaic Egypt and ancient Nubia made their way to that region, and gave it the archaic name of 'Abzin' a word closely related to Abysinnia which was the ancient name of Ethiopia. [...] Imazighen, themselves of a fairer complexion, were a later arrival who mixed with the original red skinned population in the mountains of Northern Niger; as time went by, their descendants spread to further regions due to their nomadic lifestyle. Tuareg individuals known as Inadane (guardians of traditional knowledge) are keenly aware of this dual ancient heritage and carefully protect it.
The Tuareg sample from the Fezzan, for instance, fits less easily in the western + central North African grouping because they have more recent (holocene) East African mtDNA lineages than most other samples in this grouping.
The mtDNA of the Tuareg of Fezzan LIbya is 61% H1 the highest frequency in the world
Thanks, Captain Obvious! Thanks to you I now know why border 3 in the map below is not as good of a statistical fit as border 4.
posted
I was trying to figure out with such high levels of H why you would describe Fezzan Tuaregs as having East African mtDNA lineages
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ LOL It looks like Mathilda's agent is losing terribly.
quote:Originally edited by Djehuti:
^ So it's precisely what I've always thought about Southwest Asia. By the way, that abstract about the Saudi Arabian genome is hilarious. Their hypothesis is the typical convoluted back-migration theory that one expects of Eurocentrics. So L3 is now Eurasian?! LOL For a long time experts were adamant that M and N clades are Eurasian while their parent L3 clade is African but now that its found in Arabia it's Eurasian too.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yep. Connecting L3 with a presumed genome-wide affinity, not finding evidence of this association and then going out of their way to see to it that they don't have to revise their assumption (by making an even bigger mess by claiming even more African variation) is a textbook example of circular reasoning.
Speaking of which, I can see why Xyz and lioness are equally frustrated.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Gramps. Thoughts?
You know all those rants about 'indigenous Berber H' are invalid now, right? All those rants about 'Europeans are a subset of African mtDNA H' down the drain. Lol.
Besides L2a1, which is widespread in Africa, most sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups 4 found in North Africa exhibit a slight east-west cline. L1b, L3b, and L3f1b lineages, which 5 have a mainly western African distribution (Harich et al. 2010; Salas et al. 2002) are more 6 frequent in NW African samples and rare in NE African populations. Harich and collaborators 7 (2010) proposed that the origin of most of the sub-Saharan sequences found in North Africa can be found in the impact of the trans-Saharan slave trade routes that were established during 9 recent times. This hypothesis could well explain the results found in Libya. According to 10 trans-Saharan slave trade routes from Segal (2002), northern Libya was directly connected to western Africa with the Chad basin and was also interconnected with Tunisia, Algeria and 12 Morocco, which were in turn connected with other western Africa locations. This would 13 explain as well differences found in L haplogroups between our Libyan results and those 14 found in Libyan Tuareg populations, where 18% of the L sequences are L0a1, a typical 15 eastern African haplogroup (Ottoni et al. 2009). Libyan Tuaregs live in south-western Libya, 16 along a trade route that interconnects this region with Egypt. Therefore, differences in sub- 17 Saharan haplogroup distribution between these two Libyan samples could be due to gene flow 18 either across the trade routes connecting North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa, or across North Africa itself. Indeed, the significant gradient of frequencies of haplogroups L1b and 20 L3b shown with the correlation analysis agrees with this sub-Saharan genetic exchange within 21 North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: They probably resemble the original Berbers better, but it's difficult to tease out how much of their East African ancestry is specifically inherited from the original Berber speakers.
The Tuareg sample from the Fezzan, for instance, fits less easily in the western + central North African grouping because they have more recent (holocene) East African mtDNA lineages than most other samples in this grouping.
But, as the article points out, the Fezzan is in direct contact with the eastern Sahara via trade routes. In fact, the formative phase of the Tuareg population included migrations from northeast Africa. The same applies to the Siwa Oasis.
Since you're knowledgeable about North Africa, you may already know about this. Apparently, the Tuareg have a cultural memory that their silversmith caste and some other castes came from East Africa.
Swenet, do you reacall that old Sforza study showing the Tuareg to share many autosomal markings with the Beja??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Since you're knowledgeable about North Africa, you may already know about this. Apparently, the Tuareg have a cultural memory that their silversmith caste and some other castes came from East Africa.
I've refrained from posting things like this in this thread because I'm not into the "my African friend told me" 'proof' that inevitably gets spammed once you post things like this.
But what I find interesting is that the OP repeatedly talks about others' supposed lack of familiarity with the 'black Berber' populations, but he's silent about the not so flattering ideas about race that are prevalent among Tuareg and other so-called 'black Berbers'.
The OP wants to cram Magrhebi variations into 'black Berber' and 'partially Euro slave hybrid' categories. He claims to base this on 'insider knowledge' from Tuareg and likes to emphasize that he learned this 'knowledge' from Tuareg 'friends'. He also justifies dismissing genetic data because he can't reconcile it with his anecdotal 'proof'.
However, in the real world, Tuareg elders tasked with protecting and passing down their traditions seem to have no idea what the OP is talking about:
quote:Before their arrival, other people originating in faraway Yemen, Ethiopia, archaic Egypt and ancient Nubia made their way to that region, and gave it the archaic name of 'Abzin' a word closely related to Abysinnia which was the ancient name of Ethiopia. [...] Imazighen, themselves of a fairer complexion, were a later arrival who mixed with the original red skinned population in the mountains of Northern Niger; as time went by, their descendants spread to further regions due to their nomadic lifestyle. Tuareg individuals known as Inadane (guardians of traditional knowledge) are keenly aware of this dual ancient heritage and carefully protect it.
The problem with these books that make such claims is they never identify WHO the people are making them. I mean over the last 100 years there have been few Tuareg leaders who were known publicly by name in Western countries. And the same is true today. So what you have is nameless references being cited in a book which was written relatively recently which seems odd. Not to mention whatever the traditional story is, the genetics should support this argument.
Of course the bigger picture is that Africans settled Arabia and over time there has been movement back and forth. And we know for a fact that some Arabians moved into the Sahara over the last 1000 years. And a lot of tribes in the Islamic sphere try to play up their arabian ancestry in order to increase their legitimacy in the Islamic world. In fact it is a rule that most Arab tribes use the name of an eponymous Arab male ancestor as the name of the tribe. And I don't think we will unravel this unless someone actually does a serious study and provide names of individuals and places who make such claims from the various Tuareg Kels. Otherwise, it has to be taken with a grain of salt.
As I posted previously, one of the most famous Tuareg chiefs fighting the French was a very obviously black African man along with other such chiefs as the French documented themselves......
Also everything being posted here also refutes the claim that "North Africans" are a monolithic group of people with a single shared genetic history, which scholars are still trying desperately to promote. It is no different than some of the failed theories of folks like Sergi and their "brown race" ideas in North Africa.
Also, here is a book documenting some of the historical interactions with the Tuareg and the French, including some of the fracturing of various noble groups, some of which predated the French:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: They probably resemble the original Berbers better, but it's difficult to tease out how much of their East African ancestry is specifically inherited from the original Berber speakers.
The Tuareg sample from the Fezzan, for instance, fits less easily in the western + central North African grouping because they have more recent (holocene) East African mtDNA lineages than most other samples in this grouping.
But, as the article points out, the Fezzan is in direct contact with the eastern Sahara via trade routes. In fact, the formative phase of the Tuareg population included migrations from northeast Africa. The same applies to the Siwa Oasis.
Since you're knowledgeable about North Africa, you may already know about this. Apparently, the Tuareg have a cultural memory that their silversmith caste and some other castes came from East Africa.
Swenet, do you reacall that old Sforza study showing the Tuareg to share many autosomal markings with the Beja??
Yeah, I do. Any update you know of in that regard as far as genetic data?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Do you have something in that text you specifically dispute? You're casting doubt on sources at will without anything really to back it up other than complaints and conspiracy theories.
It seems like you treat Tuareg as some special demigods with "hidden leaders" that scholars can't track down and interview. C'mon man. You have to do better than that "Tuareg leaders are too elusive to get to". Really?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I mean over the last 100 years there have been few Tuareg leaders who were known publicly by name in Western countries.
posted
Scholars are visiting and conducting interviews with the Tuareg all the time.
quote:Below, I reproduce a long-distance interview with a Tuareg man named Ahnou Immini in Agadez, Niger. Ahnou, now in his late 70s, earlier travelled and worked as a smith in Mali; he is now a respected marabout in Agadez. The interview was arranged in June 2015 by Tuareg jewelry specialist Cordelia Donohoe [http://azultribe.com/about/]. My thoroughly Western questions about talismanic rings were kindly relayed via Cordelia to Ahnou’s son Mohamed, who was good enough to ask his father the questions and to translate the replies into English. Some clarificatory comments by Mohamed are also woven into the responses. I have appended a glossary of terms at the end of the dialogue.
Complaints or conspiracy theories are not admissible evidence. You can contact the author and ask for specifics or post valid reasons for questioning what she says.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Do you have something in that text you specifically dispute? You're casting doubt on sources at will without anything really to back it up other than complaints and conspiracy theories.
It seems like you treat Tuareg as some special demigods with "hidden leaders" that scholars can't track down and interview. C'mon man. You have to do better than that "Tuareg leaders are too elusive to get to". Really?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I mean over the last 100 years there have been few Tuareg leaders who were known publicly by name in Western countries.
I am not saying it is a conspiracy theory. What I said was they should be able to provide the names of individuals in question as "authorities" for local oral tradition relative to a particular group. And that this info should be taken in consideration with all the rest of the facts.
That said, even if there is a 'caste system' among the Tuareg, that isn't unique to them or in Africa and it doesn't necessarily reflect 'racial divisions' as seen in Europe or America. This is something Europeans often like to play on when promoting their race fantasies in North Africa. I pointed this out most recently during the Libyan uprising that overthrew Khadafi. When he was alive the media said the Tuaregs were black allies from Southern Libya, as in to say this is why the rebels were attacking black Libyans. Then after the overthrow of Khadafi, the same media claimed that the Tuareg attacking Mali were light skinned and looked down on the local 'black African' people of Mali.....
And on that note, this divide and conquer paradigm has been in place for a while, so the link I provided to the book on Google kind of gives some historical context to this in the French case as well as some older examples from prior to the French which may have been the result of other historical interactions....
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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BTW, note the discussed parallels between the Tuareg and Ethiopia in the two aforementioned texts. For more parallels, see the Lloyd D. Graham paper.
quote:In terms of silver jewelry, there are some unexpected similarities between the output of Tuareg metalworkers in Saharan and Sahelian West Africa (predominantly in Mali and Niger) and the artisans of Ethiopia, a sub-Sahelian country in East Africa.
quote:Before their arrival, other people originating in faraway Yemen, Ethiopia, archaic Egypt and ancient Nubia made their way to that region, and gave it the archaic name of 'Abzin' a word closely related to Abysinnia which was the ancient name of Ethiopia. The descendants of these populations are said to be of red skin (Ikanawane, red ochre people) and they are found among potters and Inadane, smiths and artisans.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: When he was alive the media said the Tuaregs were black allies from Southern Libya, as in to say this is why the rebels were attacking black Libyans. Then after the overthrow of Khadafi, the same media claimed that the Tuareg attacking Mali were light skinned and looked down on the local 'black African' people of Mali.....
You have to look at the Tuareg rebellion. When Tuareg separatists took up arms hundreds of Tuareg civilians were killed by the Malian army. They claim to be discriminated against by the much larger non-Tuareg Malian majority
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: BTW, note the discussed parallels between the Tuareg and Ethiopia in the two aforementioned texts. For more parallels, see the Lloyd D. Graham paper.
quote:In terms of silver jewelry, there are some unexpected similarities between the output of Tuareg metalworkers in Saharan and Sahelian West Africa (predominantly in Mali and Niger) and the artisans of Ethiopia, a sub-Sahelian country in East Africa.
quote:Before their arrival, other people originating in faraway Yemen, Ethiopia, archaic Egypt and ancient Nubia made their way to that region, and gave it the archaic name of 'Abzin' a word closely related to Abysinnia which was the ancient name of Ethiopia. The descendants of these populations are said to be of red skin (Ikanawane, red ochre people) and they are found among potters and Inadane, smiths and artisans.
Good info. My question is whether there is any genetic evidence to support or corroborate this oral tradition? So far we have evidence of some genetic ties to the Beja and east Africa but is there any evidence of ancient Arabian lineages?
Also note the influence of the Kunta clan in the era of precolonial West Africa, including the Tuareg rebellion against French occupation.
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