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Author Topic: DNA studies if black amazigh im Morocco
the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:


Also, here is a book documenting some of the historical interactions with the Tuareg and the French, including some of the fracturing of various noble groups, some of which predated the French:

https://books.google.com/books?id=k0eRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=sidi+ag+keradji&source=bl&ots=ybDvk1Nhvr&sig=eMMhqeDTJdgPQV_cZebUoKdE7Kw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi64cfuyajRAhXFQyYK Hen-BVkQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=sidi%20ag%20keradji&f=false [/QB]

 -

I'm trying to figure out this book. Above it says the French imposed colorism

But then it goes on to talk about slaves of the Tuareg described as 'black" "or non-Tuareg" and raiding of Sudan


 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
My question is whether there is any genetic evidence to support or corroborate this oral tradition? So far we have evidence of some genetic ties to the Beja and east Africa but is there any evidence of ancient Arabian lineages?


The Libyan Tuareg don't carry the the paternal Arab marker haplogroup J
Arabs have high frequencies of mtDNA R0
mtDNA Haplogroup R and its descendants are distributed all over Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, the Near East, the Indian Subcontinent, Oceania and the Americas.

Haplogroup H is a descendant of haplogroup HV. Haplogroup HV derives from the Haplogroup R0

Libyan Tuaregs are characterized by a major “European” component shared with the Berbers that could be traced to the Iberian Peninsula rather than Arabia

The largest population by far of Tuareg is in Niger however and they have much more L ancestry
.
 -

Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel
Luísa Pereira, Viktor Černý, María Cerezo, Nuno M Silva, Martin Hájek, Alžběta Vašíková, Martina Kujanová, Radim Brdička & Antonio Salas
European Journal of Human Genetics volume 18, pages915–923(2010)

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201021

Supplementary Information SM7

___________________________

(note: the R1b in the one Tuareg group from Niger (TTan) is probably R-V88 which was just being discovered around the time)

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xyyman
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Need help here. Are they saying that Eastern Tauregs are the remnants of the Afalou and Taforralt? This population carry a low diversity of mtDNA compared to the also low diversity of Afalou and Taforralt from 20,000ya BEFORE or DURING the Ice Age.


The question an intelligent person will ask is:
1. we know La Brana was black skinned. Also Loshcbour~4000bc). So Europeans were black skinned up to 6000ya and beyond. So a betting man would bet that yes, Afalou and Taforralt, were also black 22,000ya. Right? All reputable geneticist have concluded that prior to 6000ya Europeans were black maybe like Melanesians or Dravidians. They are the some of the darkest people on the planet.
2. So we get that out the way the question to ask is were these mtDNA H carrying Africans also black. I would think there weren't white while Europeans were black at that time/ Right. That seems upsided down. White Africans but black Europeans. Lol!
3. Also interesting is We know SSA line seems to be absent 22000ya but we have MTDNA L in prehistoric Europe. So obviously SSA lineage may be part of the Neolithic package.

So the picture emerging is that black(or white) mtDNA carriers occupied North Africa for about 15,000years BEFORE the emergence of Neolithic technology. The author is stated that SSA components came from Sudan around the same time as the commencement of Neolithic Technology in North Africa.

Where are the Luyha(LWK) from again?

---
Quote:
The HVS1 mtDNA diversity observed in samples from TAF and AFA (0.7810 ± 0.0943 and 0.8095 ± 0.1298, respectively)
was slightly LOWER than that observed in the majority of current Mediterranean populations (from 0.853 ± 0.045 to
1.000 ± 0.005; Kefi et al. 2015) and higher than that observed in Eastern Tuareg population (0.677 ± 0.046; Ottoni et al.
2009).

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Since you're knowledgeable about North Africa, you may already know about this. Apparently, the Tuareg have a cultural memory that their silversmith caste and some other castes came from East Africa.

Whether or not there's a grain of truth to this claim (and there can be no doubt migrations from East Africa have impacted the Tuareg somehow), I am not sure if cultural memory can stretch that far back into prehistory without receiving influences from outside sources (e.g. the belief among previous generations of scholars that metalworking throughout Africa had to be introduced from the Nile Valley).

I've seen a lot of people on ES appeal to various oral traditions to support their pet reconstructions of ancient population movements, with another example being the Bantu or West Africans coming from the Nile region. But isn't it the normal trend among "traditional" peoples to assume that they've always inhabited their current region of residence? Native Americans for instance don't seem to have any cultural memory of having come from Asia, nor do Aboriginal Australians as far as I know. They instead assume they've always lived where they live now and were probably created there. Why would Africans be so different from this?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
But isn't it the normal trend among "traditional" peoples to assume that they've always inhabited their current region of residence?

No, they often claim Arabian/Yemeni heritage to connect to Islamic political lineage, that goes right back to the Almoravid/Sanhaja and other groups, places


https://books.google.com/books?id=rySrBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63

--Genealogy and Knowledge in Muslim Societies: Understanding the Past

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xyyman
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Man this is a great paper. Kefi is on a role lately. Looks like she is in my corner.
I guess these Steppes males left Central Asia to hook up with African women IN Europe. Lol! (insert sarcasm)
You need to read and understand youngster. And stop post stuff that you don't fully comprehend. Btw - she was being subtle.
Is she now going after Henn and the back-migration Theory or is she after Ennaffa et al. Remember the Ennaffa paper was the clue that I got to break this wide open. The Ennaffa paper proved that North Africans are NOT a subset of the Near East but two distinct groups from one central source and therefore there no back-migration. The "central "source was never identified.

-------
Quotes:
The chronology of the Eurasiatic gene flows in North Africa

Previous studies performed on current populations showed that the majority of the Eurasian haplogroups such as T, H, J
are originated in Near East during the Palaeolithic. ........


According to our results, the presence of Eurasian haplogroups (JT, J, T, H, R0a1, U) in AFA and in TAF individuals
suggests that these lineages were present in North Africa at least 21,000 YBP confirming the estimated coalescence
time for these haplogroups (Brandst€atter et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al 2009; Ottoni et al., 2010; Pala et al. 2012; Zheng et al. 2012).

In perspective, we will extend this molecular study of the population of AFA on other new specimens, since the excavation
of this prehistoric site is still under progress. The study of ancient DNA from Neolithic populations such as the
Capsian population will be very helpful to precise the chronology of Sub-Saharan gene flow in North Africa.

The presence of J/T haplotypes at 21,000 YBP could be further investigated in an another ancient population to precise
the link between North Africa and Near East.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Kefi seems to forget that some SSA population carrys mtDNA U and H. She uses fuzzy logic and conclude absence of mtDNA L equates to not a SSA origin. Nevertheless.
As with some 3rd World researchers who write for Euro magazines they try to speak from both sides of the mouth. Instead of claiming they did not come from SSA or Nubia wouldn't it be prudent to actually TEST mtDNA R/H/U haplotypes found in the Sudan East Africa region before making such claims about no origin from SSA. Maybe the youngsta can help me out. What she is saying true about the dental morphology?
I am trying to get my hands on information on the indigenous populations of the Balearic Islands between Africa and Europe.

---
Quotes:
The absence of haplotype belonging to Sub-Saharan haplogroups (L0–L7) would suggest that our sample of
Iberomaurusians is not originating from Sub-Saharan region. These results confirm dental, craniofacial, post-cranial comparative
studies, and industry investigations which found divergence between Iberomarusian skeletons and their contemporaneous
Nubians


(Camps 1974; Ferembach 1985; Bermudez de Castro 1991; Irish 2000). The distribution of the Sub-Saharan component in the current North African populations ranged from 3.2% in
Moroccan from Souss region to 43% in Mauritanian (Brakez et al. 2001; Plaza et al. 2003; Gonzalez et al. 2006; Kefi et al.
2015). The absence of the Sub-Saharan component in our Iberomaurusian samples suggests a recent gene flow from
South to North Africa (at least after 10,000 YBP).

This agrees with an analysis of STR/Alu combination polymorphisms that
suggests that the Sub-Saharan component of current North Africans could be traced back to the *******first stage of Neolithic
(around 9000 YBP) ********characterized by an ethnic contribution from present-day Sudan (El Moncer et al. 2010).

Our phylogenetic analysis showed that Iberomaurusian individuals from TAF and AFA (coastal archaeological sites in
Northern Morocco and in Northern Algeria respectively) are genetically close to Berbers from the North of Morocco,
Berbers from the Jerba Island in Tunisia and close to some South Western European populations: Valencia and the
Balearic Islands from Spain and Sardinia from Italy (Figure 3). This finding highlights the existence of a broad
Mediterranean mitochondrial gene pool including population from North Africa and South Western Europe. Around 24,000
years BP, the level of the Mediterranean was less than 110 m compared to the current level (Ferembach 1985) that would
have facilitated population movements between these regions.


Genetic continuity
All haplogroups observed in individuals from TAF and AFA are found in contemporary North African populations (Plaza
et al. 2003; Coudray et al. 2009; Ottoni et al. 2009; Ennafaa et al. 2011; Kefi et al. 2015). Moreover among the current
North African populations studied to date, the genetic structure of the Berber population of Northern Morocco presents
similarities with the population of TAF: These Berbers have the lowest rate of sub-Saharan haplogroups (3.2%) as TAF
population. Also, all haplogroups observed in TAF are found in this current population, even the rare haplogroup J/T. This
J/T haplogroup, represented at 1.6% in the Northern Moroccan Berber population, is only represented in Sicilian
(1.8%) and in other Italian populations (1.6%) (Pinto et al. 1996; Rando et al. 1998; Richards et al. 2000b; Cali et al. 2001;
Plaza et al. 2003). In addition, among Mediterranean populations, only one U6 sequence, observed in Moroccan individual (16172C–16174T–16304C) (Rando et al 1998), could be related
to an haplotype observed in the population of TAF (16172C–16174T).

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Kefi seems to forget that some SSA population carrys mtDNA U and H. She uses fuzzy logic and conclude absence of mtDNA L equates to not a SSA origin. Nevertheless.
As with some 3rd World researchers who write for Euro magazines they try to speak from both sides of the mouth. Instead of claiming they did not come from SSA or Nubia wouldn't it be prudent to actually TEST mtDNA R/H/U haplotypes found in the Sudan East Africa region before making such claims about no origin from SSA. Maybe the youngsta can help me out. What she is saying true about the dental morphology?
I am trying to get my hands on information on the indigenous populations of the Balearic Islands between Africa and Europe.

---
Quotes:
The absence of haplotype belonging to Sub-Saharan haplogroups (L0–L7) would suggest that our sample of
Iberomaurusians is not originating from Sub-Saharan region. These results confirm dental, craniofacial, post-cranial comparative
studies, and industry investigations which found divergence between Iberomarusian skeletons and their contemporaneous
Nubians


(Camps 1974; Ferembach 1985; Bermudez de Castro 1991; Irish 2000). The distribution of the Sub-Saharan component in the current North African populations ranged from 3.2% in
Moroccan from Souss region to 43% in Mauritanian (Brakez et al. 2001; Plaza et al. 2003; Gonzalez et al. 2006; Kefi et al.
2015). The absence of the Sub-Saharan component in our Iberomaurusian samples suggests a recent gene flow from
South to North Africa (at least after 10,000 YBP).

This agrees with an analysis of STR/Alu combination polymorphisms that
suggests that the Sub-Saharan component of current North Africans could be traced back to the *******first stage of Neolithic
(around 9000 YBP) ********characterized by an ethnic contribution from present-day Sudan (El Moncer et al. 2010).

Our phylogenetic analysis showed that Iberomaurusian individuals from TAF and AFA (coastal archaeological sites in
Northern Morocco and in Northern Algeria respectively) are genetically close to Berbers from the North of Morocco,
Berbers from the Jerba Island in Tunisia and close to some South Western European populations: Valencia and the
Balearic Islands from Spain and Sardinia from Italy (Figure 3). This finding highlights the existence of a broad
Mediterranean mitochondrial gene pool including population from North Africa and South Western Europe. Around 24,000
years BP, the level of the Mediterranean was less than 110 m compared to the current level (Ferembach 1985) that would
have facilitated population movements between these regions.


Genetic continuity
All haplogroups observed in individuals from TAF and AFA are found in contemporary North African populations (Plaza
et al. 2003; Coudray et al. 2009; Ottoni et al. 2009; Ennafaa et al. 2011; Kefi et al. 2015). Moreover among the current
North African populations studied to date, the genetic structure of the Berber population of Northern Morocco presents
similarities with the population of TAF: These Berbers have the lowest rate of sub-Saharan haplogroups (3.2%) as TAF
population. Also, all haplogroups observed in TAF are found in this current population, even the rare haplogroup J/T. This
J/T haplogroup, represented at 1.6% in the Northern Moroccan Berber population, is only represented in Sicilian
(1.8%) and in other Italian populations (1.6%) (Pinto et al. 1996; Rando et al. 1998; Richards et al. 2000b; Cali et al. 2001;
Plaza et al. 2003). In addition, among Mediterranean populations, only one U6 sequence, observed in Moroccan individual (16172C–16174T–16304C) (Rando et al 1998), could be related
to an haplotype observed in the population of TAF (16172C–16174T).

Thing is, mtDNA H and U are ultimately of Eurasian origin. So their presence in Africa has to attest to a kind of back-migration at some point in time, even if certain African populations have assimilated it.
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xyyman
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Typical European. DENIAL!!!! Shut up if you don't know what you are talking about. Racialism comes out when confronted and scared. . Don't you understand what Kefi is saying ...bud!


Get at the Truth...truthcentric. lol Hypocrites!! (sic)


Don't like what you are reading? huh?!

The Truth will set you free..cousin


And WTF you mean by "ultimately". without proof . Typical European.

Don't fear me! I only bring Truth


quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Kefi seems to forget that some SSA population carrys mtDNA U and H. She uses fuzzy logic and conclude absence of mtDNA L equates to not a SSA origin. Nevertheless.
As with some 3rd World researchers who write for Euro magazines they try to speak from both sides of the mouth. Instead of claiming they did not come from SSA or Nubia wouldn't it be prudent to actually TEST mtDNA R/H/U haplotypes found in the Sudan East Africa region before making such claims about no origin from SSA. Maybe the youngsta can help me out. What she is saying true about the dental morphology?
I am trying to get my hands on information on the indigenous populations of the Balearic Islands between Africa and Europe.

---
Quotes:
The absence of haplotype belonging to Sub-Saharan haplogroups (L0–L7) would suggest that our sample of
Iberomaurusians is not originating from Sub-Saharan region. These results confirm dental, craniofacial, post-cranial comparative
studies, and industry investigations which found divergence between Iberomarusian skeletons and their contemporaneous
Nubians


(Camps 1974; Ferembach 1985; Bermudez de Castro 1991; Irish 2000). The distribution of the Sub-Saharan component in the current North African populations ranged from 3.2% in
Moroccan from Souss region to 43% in Mauritanian (Brakez et al. 2001; Plaza et al. 2003; Gonzalez et al. 2006; Kefi et al.
2015). The absence of the Sub-Saharan component in our Iberomaurusian samples suggests a recent gene flow from
South to North Africa (at least after 10,000 YBP).

This agrees with an analysis of STR/Alu combination polymorphisms that
suggests that the Sub-Saharan component of current North Africans could be traced back to the *******first stage of Neolithic
(around 9000 YBP) ********characterized by an ethnic contribution from present-day Sudan (El Moncer et al. 2010).

Our phylogenetic analysis showed that Iberomaurusian individuals from TAF and AFA (coastal archaeological sites in
Northern Morocco and in Northern Algeria respectively) are genetically close to Berbers from the North of Morocco,
Berbers from the Jerba Island in Tunisia and close to some South Western European populations: Valencia and the
Balearic Islands from Spain and Sardinia from Italy (Figure 3). This finding highlights the existence of a broad
Mediterranean mitochondrial gene pool including population from North Africa and South Western Europe. Around 24,000
years BP, the level of the Mediterranean was less than 110 m compared to the current level (Ferembach 1985) that would
have facilitated population movements between these regions.


Genetic continuity
All haplogroups observed in individuals from TAF and AFA are found in contemporary North African populations (Plaza
et al. 2003; Coudray et al. 2009; Ottoni et al. 2009; Ennafaa et al. 2011; Kefi et al. 2015). Moreover among the current
North African populations studied to date, the genetic structure of the Berber population of Northern Morocco presents
similarities with the population of TAF: These Berbers have the lowest rate of sub-Saharan haplogroups (3.2%) as TAF
population. Also, all haplogroups observed in TAF are found in this current population, even the rare haplogroup J/T. This
J/T haplogroup, represented at 1.6% in the Northern Moroccan Berber population, is only represented in Sicilian
(1.8%) and in other Italian populations (1.6%) (Pinto et al. 1996; Rando et al. 1998; Richards et al. 2000b; Cali et al. 2001;
Plaza et al. 2003). In addition, among Mediterranean populations, only one U6 sequence, observed in Moroccan individual (16172C–16174T–16304C) (Rando et al 1998), could be related
to an haplotype observed in the population of TAF (16172C–16174T).

Thing is, mtDNA H and U are ultimately of Eurasian origin. So their presence in Africa has to attest to a kind of back-migration at some point in time, even if certain African populations have assimilated it.

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xyyman
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Mixed origin of the current Tunisian population from the analysis of Alu and Alu/STR compound systems - Wifak El Monce 2013

QUOTES:
These haplotypes are also present in our two Tunisian samples with a remarkable quantitative difference: the total number of different
sub-Saharan African haplotypes in the north-center sample was four times higher (7%) than that of the south (1.7%). This difference was
statistically significant (Fisher’s exact probabilityĽ0.002). Moreover, two Mediterranean-specific combinations, particularly in the

The only consistent results were those based on Alu/STR haplotypes taking as parental populations a sub-Saharan African sample on one hand,
and a sample from continental south Europeans (described in the Materials and methods section) on the other. For both Tunisian
samples, the overall sub-Saharan African contribution reached a similar value
: 0.398 ( 95% CI 0.228; +95% CI 0.617) for northcenter

Thus, the presence of Berber and sub-Saharan African-specific combinations in remarkably higher frequencies (10.5%) in north-center Tunisia, as compared
with the southern sample (3.1%), suggests a certain degree of genetic heterogeneity also for the Alu/STR data

Sub-Saharan African contribution in our samples reached 39%. This value is comparable to, and even slightly higher
than, other gene flow estimations previously described11 in several North African populations ranging from 16.8% in Moroccan northeast
Atlas Berbers to 37.7% in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The presence of noticeable sub-Saharan African traces in present-day
Tunisians is in agreement with mtDNA data23 reporting a higher number of sub-Saharan L lineages in Tunisia (48%) as compared with
Morocco (25%).

The qualitative information provided by some particular Alu/STR combinations of the CD4 locus, such as 100(+), 85( ) and 115( ),
could be another indication of sub-Saharan gene flow. In this case, north-center Tunisia attained a value (7%) considerably higher than
that observed in the south of the country (1.7%). These frequencies range from 2.9% in northeast Atlas to 12.3% in Middle Atlas Moroccan
Berbers, but they have also been found in Algerian Mozabites (5.8%). The observed fluctuations of sub-Saharan gene flow in North Africa
could be related to particular demographic events that may have enhanced the effect of genetic drift on a single locus. Whatever
the case, the existence of trans-Saharan African gene flow through the Maghreb is obvious
, and has been reported by other genetic
studies,12,23,24 as well as in archeological and historical records.1 Notwithstanding, it is important to ask whether this sub-Saharan
gene flow is relatively recent or more ancient
. Our results are compatible with the latter alternative. In fact, as mentioned above,
we have found that the presence of three sub-Saharan Africa-specific CD4 Alu/STR combinations is considerably higher in the north-center
Tunisian sample than in the one from the south. If the corresponding gene flow occurred in relatively recent times, we should find the
opposite trend, because the south of Tunisia would naturally be the first to receive population movements from sub-Saharan countries.
Moreover, about 5000 YBP, the immense Sahara desert already had the current severe climate that represents a considerable barrier to human
migration, but it was more accessible to human migration25 before, due to a better climatic conditions. All these data considered together
suggest that the sub-Saharan component found in Tunisia is *****rather ancient**** and could be traced back to the first stage of Neolithic Age
(around 9000 YBP), characterized by an ethnic contribution from present-day Sudan.


-------


More Truth white people are scared to confront....

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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As I tell my white colleagues "don't fear me..embrace me" I bring Truth. Denial and Fear won't help you. It is what it is.

FYI He! He! He!. "ULTIMATELY" is not a scientific term. Just letting you know.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Mixed origin of the current Tunisian population from the analysis of Alu and Alu/STR compound systems - Wifak El Monce 2013

QUOTES:
These haplotypes are also present in our two Tunisian samples with a remarkable quantitative difference: the total number of different
sub-Saharan African haplotypes in the north-center sample was four times higher (7%) than that of the south (1.7%). This difference was
statistically significant (Fisher’s exact probabilityĽ0.002). Moreover, two Mediterranean-specific combinations, particularly in the

The only consistent results were those based on Alu/STR haplotypes taking as parental populations a sub-Saharan African sample on one hand,
and a sample from continental south Europeans (described in the Materials and methods section) on the other. For both Tunisian
samples, the overall sub-Saharan African contribution reached a similar value
: 0.398 ( 95% CI 0.228; +95% CI 0.617) for northcenter

Thus, the presence of Berber and sub-Saharan African-specific combinations in remarkably higher frequencies (10.5%) in north-center Tunisia, as compared
with the southern sample (3.1%), suggests a certain degree of genetic heterogeneity also for the Alu/STR data

Sub-Saharan African contribution in our samples reached 39%. This value is comparable to, and even slightly higher
than, other gene flow estimations previously described11 in several North African populations ranging from 16.8% in Moroccan northeast
Atlas Berbers to 37.7% in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The presence of noticeable sub-Saharan African traces in present-day
Tunisians is in agreement with mtDNA data23 reporting a higher number of sub-Saharan L lineages in Tunisia (48%) as compared with
Morocco (25%).

The qualitative information provided by some particular Alu/STR combinations of the CD4 locus, such as 100(+), 85( ) and 115( ),
could be another indication of sub-Saharan gene flow. In this case, north-center Tunisia attained a value (7%) considerably higher than
that observed in the south of the country (1.7%). These frequencies range from 2.9% in northeast Atlas to 12.3% in Middle Atlas Moroccan
Berbers, but they have also been found in Algerian Mozabites (5.8%). The observed fluctuations of sub-Saharan gene flow in North Africa
could be related to particular demographic events that may have enhanced the effect of genetic drift on a single locus. Whatever
the case, the existence of trans-Saharan African gene flow through the Maghreb is obvious
, and has been reported by other genetic
studies,12,23,24 as well as in archeological and historical records.1 Notwithstanding, it is important to ask whether this sub-Saharan
gene flow is relatively recent or more ancient
. Our results are compatible with the latter alternative. In fact, as mentioned above,
we have found that the presence of three sub-Saharan Africa-specific CD4 Alu/STR combinations is considerably higher in the north-center
Tunisian sample than in the one from the south. If the corresponding gene flow occurred in relatively recent times, we should find the
opposite trend, because the south of Tunisia would naturally be the first to receive population movements from sub-Saharan countries.
Moreover, about 5000 YBP, the immense Sahara desert already had the current severe climate that represents a considerable barrier to human
migration, but it was more accessible to human migration25 before, due to a better climatic conditions. All these data considered together
suggest that the sub-Saharan component found in Tunisia is *****rather ancient**** and could be traced back to the first stage of Neolithic Age
(around 9000 YBP), characterized by an ethnic contribution from present-day Sudan.


-------


More Truth white people are scared to confront....

This I don't deny. I do believe, based on this and other data, that waves of biologically (aka "black") African people would have colonized the northern Maghreb during the Green Sahara phase. I simply disagree with you that haplogroups H and U are necessarily indigenous African markers, which I think is what you're saying.
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Since you're knowledgeable about North Africa, you may already know about this. Apparently, the Tuareg have a cultural memory that their silversmith caste and some other castes came from East Africa.

Whether or not there's a grain of truth to this claim (and there can be no doubt migrations from East Africa have impacted the Tuareg somehow), I am not sure if cultural memory can stretch that far back into prehistory without receiving influences from outside sources (e.g. the belief among previous generations of scholars that metalworking throughout Africa had to be introduced from the Nile Valley).

I've seen a lot of people on ES appeal to various oral traditions to support their pet reconstructions of ancient population movements, with another example being the Bantu or West Africans coming from the Nile region. But isn't it the normal trend among "traditional" peoples to assume that they've always inhabited their current region of residence? Native Americans for instance don't seem to have any cultural memory of having come from Asia, nor do Aboriginal Australians as far as I know. They instead assume they've always lived where they live now and were probably created there. Why would Africans be so different from this?

I agree that caution is always needed when relying on oral traditions. Although I don't think the events of this cultural memory take place in ancient times. The memory, according to Hagan, holds that original Berber speaking element the Tuareg got their language from came from the north and found these darker skinned people in northern Chad. This is a fairly recent migration because the Berber matriarch who is buried in Morocco is not that old. Also, the term Abyssinia is not a very ancient term if my intuition is anything to go by. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see references to anything that's ancient.

I mainly think of this cultural memory as evidence that the OP doesn't have his facts right when he talks about Tuareg views about themselves. I think I've only used that book in the previous discussion about the term 'black' and I have no intention of seriously using it for historical purposes.

EDIT
Actually, the tomb itself is not in Morocco. The starting point of their journey towards the south was supposedly in Morocco.

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Since you're knowledgeable about North Africa, you may already know about this. Apparently, the Tuareg have a cultural memory that their silversmith caste and some other castes came from East Africa.

Whether or not there's a grain of truth to this claim (and there can be no doubt migrations from East Africa have impacted the Tuareg somehow), I am not sure if cultural memory can stretch that far back into prehistory without receiving influences from outside sources (e.g. the belief among previous generations of scholars that metalworking throughout Africa had to be introduced from the Nile Valley).

I've seen a lot of people on ES appeal to various oral traditions to support their pet reconstructions of ancient population movements, with another example being the Bantu or West Africans coming from the Nile region. But isn't it the normal trend among "traditional" peoples to assume that they've always inhabited their current region of residence? Native Americans for instance don't seem to have any cultural memory of having come from Asia, nor do Aboriginal Australians as far as I know. They instead assume they've always lived where they live now and were probably created there. Why would Africans be so different from this?

I agree that caution is always needed when relying on oral traditions. Although I don't think the events of this cultural memory take place in ancient times. The memory, according to Hagan, holds that original Berber speaking element the Tuareg got their language from came from the north and found these darker skinned people in northern Chad. This is a fairly recent migration because the Berber matriarch who is buried in Morocco is not that old. Also, the term Abyssinia is not a very ancient term if my intuition is anything to go by. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see references to anything that's ancient.

I mainly think of this cultural memory as evidence that the OP doesn't have his facts right when he talks about Tuareg views about themselves. I think I've only used that book in the previous discussion about the term 'black' and I have no intention of seriously using it for historical purposes.

EDIT
Actually, the tomb itself is not in Morocco. The starting point of their journey towards the south was supposedly in Morocco.

I understand why you invoked it, to correct the OP's claims about the Tuareg's cultural worldview. But it did remind me of something that's been bothering me about how people here on ES appeal to certain oral traditions.
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[qb] BTW, note the discussed parallels between the Tuareg and Ethiopia in the two aforementioned texts. For more parallels, see the Lloyd D. Graham paper.

quote:
In terms of silver jewelry, there are some unexpected similarities between the output of
Tuareg metalworkers in Saharan and Sahelian West Africa (predominantly in Mali and
Niger) and the artisans of Ethiopia
, a sub-Sahelian country in East Africa.

Graham


quote:
Before their arrival, other people originating in faraway Yemen, Ethiopia, archaic Egypt and ancient Nubia made their way to that region, and gave it the archaic name of 'Abzin' a word closely related to Abysinnia which was the ancient name of Ethiopia. The descendants of these populations are said to be of red skin (Ikanawane, red ochre people) and they are found among potters and Inadane, smiths and artisans.
Hagan

Good info. My question is whether there is any genetic evidence to support or corroborate this oral tradition?
Not that familiar with Tuareg lineages that I can speak on this from memory. But modern day Tuareg genetic data might not be very helpful in terms of investigating specific questions like "were Yemenis involved during the formation of the Tuareg?".

Given the loss of recent (early/mid holocene) northeast African ancestry in the Maghreb we may expect other, small, contributions from elsewhere to have undergone the same changes. This also includes the Phoenician presence along the Maghebi coast, which has also been difficult to detect genetically.

The East African contribution to the Tuareg population we're discussing right now is only detectable as a small increase of East African lineages compared to other Maghrebis. Any Yemeni contribution should be a similar, but smaller, increase of the Middle Eastern ancestry that was already there. But the Middle Eastern ancestry in Maghrebis is much larger and inconsistent throughout the Maghreb than the recent East African ancestry. It's like searching for a needle in a haystack.

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xyyman
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What you BELEIVE does not matter it is what you can prove. Still can't get that through your head. without data.....

"This I don't deny. I do believe, based on this and other data, that waves of biologically (aka "black") African people would have colonized the northern Maghreb during the Green Sahara phase. I simply disagree with you that haplogroups H and U are necessarily indigenous African markers, which I think is what you're saying. "


Also there is no genetic proof the Phoenicians or modern Europeans like greeks ever dominated AE.

"This includes the Phoenician presence along the Maghebi coast, which has also been difficult to detect. "

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Given the loss of recent (early/mid holocene) northeast African ancestry in the Maghreb we may expect other, small, contributions from elsewhere to have undergone the same changes. This also includes the Phoenician presence along the Maghebi coast, which has also been difficult to detect genetically.

Interesting in-depth article showing the fact that modern inhabitants of sites founded by ancient colonists tend to not show obvious evidence of genetic continuity with these colonists. They discuss modern DNA from sites settled by Sea People, Carthaginians and Phoenicians.

Who Were the Phoenicians?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/lebanon/phoenicians-text

On page 5 they conclude that Tunisians who live near known Carthaginian sites show no obvious differences from other regional groups:

quote:
The data from Tunisia also help redefine the legacy of the Phoenicians.

"They left only a small impact in North Africa," Wells says. "No more than 20 percent of the men we sampled had Y chromosomes that originated in the Middle East. Most carried the aboriginal North African M96 pattern."

That influx from the Middle East could have come in three waves: the arrival of farming in North Africa 10,000 years ago, the Phoenicians, and the Islamic expansion 1,300 years ago. Microsatellites will let the researchers estimate when people bearing those markers arrived. Even if they all turned out to be of Phoenician age, the impact on local people was relatively small.

Even if they find no Y chromosomes they can relate to Phoenicians, this doesn't mean this ancestry is not in their genomes.
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[qb] BTW, note the discussed parallels between the Tuareg and Ethiopia in the two aforementioned texts. For more parallels, see the Lloyd D. Graham paper.

quote:
In terms of silver jewelry, there are some unexpected similarities between the output of
Tuareg metalworkers in Saharan and Sahelian West Africa (predominantly in Mali and
Niger) and the artisans of Ethiopia
, a sub-Sahelian country in East Africa.

Graham


quote:
Before their arrival, other people originating in faraway Yemen, Ethiopia, archaic Egypt and ancient Nubia made their way to that region, and gave it the archaic name of 'Abzin' a word closely related to Abysinnia which was the ancient name of Ethiopia. The descendants of these populations are said to be of red skin (Ikanawane, red ochre people) and they are found among potters and Inadane, smiths and artisans.
Hagan

Good info. My question is whether there is any genetic evidence to support or corroborate this oral tradition?
Not that familiar with Tuareg lineages that I can speak on this from memory. But modern day Tuareg genetic data might not be very helpful in terms of investigating specific questions like "were Yemenis involved during the formation of the Tuareg?".

Given the loss of recent (early/mid holocene) northeast African ancestry in the Maghreb we may expect other, small, contributions from elsewhere to have undergone the same changes. This also includes the Phoenician presence along the Maghebi coast, which has also been difficult to detect genetically.

The East African contribution to the Tuareg population we're discussing right now is only detectable as a small increase of East African lineages compared to other Maghrebis. Any Yemeni contribution should be a similar, but smaller, increase of the Middle Eastern ancestry that was already there. But the Middle Eastern ancestry in Maghrebis is much larger and inconsistent throughout the Maghreb than the recent East African ancestry. It's like searching for a needle in a haystack.

Thanks.
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xyyman
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What is the Y chromosome marker of Pheonecians? SMH. You do know autosomes and sex related DNA go together? lol. SMH

quote:
"Even if they find no Y chromosomes they can relate to Phoenicians, this doesn't mean this ancestry is not in their genomes. "

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
You do know autosomes and sex related DNA go together? lol. SMH

Make up your mind, gramps. You look befuddled again. [Razz]

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Haplogroups do NOT equal phenotype. R1b-V88 comes to mind.


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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
David Comas never really explained what this specific component is. He explains that it did evolve in Africa and that the descendants with that component returned to Africa.

Other than the descriptions given in the paper, what else, specifically, should he have explained?
The markers he refers at. I now feel like being left in the dark.
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“The races of Negroes are the Nubians, the Bijah (Beja), the Zaghawah, the Murawah (Meroe), the Istan [Zinj in Iraq], the Barbar (Berbers), and the types of blacks like the Indians.” ~ tenth-century Iraqi scholar and bibliographer Muhammad ibn Nadim The Fihrist , vol. 1, 35.
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xyyman
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May Sage and other literature-type experts can help him and TypeZeiss out? What is a "Negro" defined by someone in the TENTH Century. I thought Negro was invented in the 17th Century? More BS by posters who cannot tell when they are be fooled?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Since you're knowledgeable about North Africa, you may already know about this. Apparently, the Tuareg have a cultural memory that their silversmith caste and some other castes came from East Africa.

Whether or not there's a grain of truth to this claim (and there can be no doubt migrations from East Africa have impacted the Tuareg somehow), I am not sure if cultural memory can stretch that far back into prehistory without receiving influences from outside sources (e.g. the belief among previous generations of scholars that metalworking throughout Africa had to be introduced from the Nile Valley).

I've seen a lot of people on ES appeal to various oral traditions to support their pet reconstructions of ancient population movements, with another example being the Bantu or West Africans coming from the Nile region. But isn't it the normal trend among "traditional" peoples to assume that they've always inhabited their current region of residence? Native Americans for instance don't seem to have any cultural memory of having come from Asia, nor do Aboriginal Australians as far as I know. They instead assume they've always lived where they live now and were probably created there. Why would Africans be so different from this?

I agree that caution is always needed when relying on oral traditions. Although I don't think the events of this cultural memory take place in ancient times. The memory, according to Hagan, holds that original Berber speaking element the Tuareg got their language from came from the north and found these darker skinned people in northern Chad. This is a fairly recent migration because the Berber matriarch who is buried in Morocco is not that old. Also, the term Abyssinia is not a very ancient term if my intuition is anything to go by. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see references to anything that's ancient.

I mainly think of this cultural memory as evidence that the OP doesn't have his facts right when he talks about Tuareg views about themselves. I think I've only used that book in the previous discussion about the term 'black' and I have no intention of seriously using it for historical purposes.

EDIT
Actually, the tomb itself is not in Morocco. The starting point of their journey towards the south was supposedly in Morocco.

Mind you, traditions of ancestral migration are more prevalent among nomadic groups like the Tuareg among others. And I agree that such migrations are more recent than ancient as per nomadic customs. The Tuareg are divided into many Kel or clans each descended from a matriarch. And as Lioness pointed out there are primary noble clans and secondary client clans descended from the maidservants of the matriarchs as well as tertiary and other lower clans descended from lower status ancestresses. This reflects the matrilineal hierarchy as opposed the patrilineal hierarchies of patriarchal nomadic tribes where noble clans descend from patriarchs and lesser clans from butlers of the patriarchs. You see this in other Saharan nomadic groups such the Teda or those of the Horn such as the Oromo and Somali

Another unique about the Tuareg is their Tifinagh script whose literacy is preserved and passed from the women (Look up the topic of Tifinagh in past ES archives). What's interesting is that other Berber tribes have preserved ancient pictographs but mostly in arts and crafs such as pottery and fabrics but the Tuareg are the only ones who have utilized their pictographs in actual script.

Also, I noticed that most of the literature I've read on Saharan peoples usually divide the Berber speaking groups into the Tuareg of the central Sahara and the Moors of the Western Sahara though I never understood what the major difference was other than that the Moors have more Arab influence.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
May Sage and other literature-type experts can help him and TypeZeiss out? What is a "Negro" defined by someone in the TENTH Century. I thought Negro was invented in the 17th Century? More BS by posters who cannot tell when they are be fooled?

the arabic word used in the original document is Suda (blacks, plural). This is just a translation of the original arabic (A language I know, read and understand).
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Mind you, traditions of ancestral migration are more prevalent among nomadic groups like the Tuareg among others. And I agree that such migrations are more recent than ancient as per nomadic customs. The Tuareg are divided into many Kel or clans each descended from a matriarch. And as Lioness pointed out there are primary noble clans and secondary client clans descended from the maidservants of the matriarchs as well as tertiary and other lower clans descended from lower status ancestresses. This reflects the matrilineal hierarchy as opposed the patrilineal hierarchies of patriarchal nomadic tribes where noble clans descend from patriarchs and lesser clans from butlers of the patriarchs. You see this in other Saharan nomadic groups such the Teda or those of the Horn such as the Oromo and Somali

Another unique about the Tuareg is their Tifinagh script whose literacy is preserved and passed from the women (Look up the topic of Tifinagh in past ES archives). What's interesting is that other Berber tribes have preserved ancient pictographs but mostly in arts and crafs such as pottery and fabrics but the Tuareg are the only ones who have utilized their pictographs in actual script.

Also, I noticed that most of the literature I've read on Saharan peoples usually divide the Berber speaking groups into the Tuareg of the central Sahara and the Moors of the Western Sahara though I never understood what the major difference was other than that the Moors have more Arab influence. [/qb]

Thanks for the perspective. These lighter skinned Tuareg nobles remind me of some ancient Arabian tribes in that they're both often assumed to be non African but have all these cultural features (such as queens and matriarchs) that we wouldn't associate with the proposed Eurasian source populations. This is why terms like non-indigenous can be problematic when applied North Africans beyond certain lineages. As Keita often points out, the fact that Berber languages and other features show little evidence of mixture shows that foreigners were assimilated on locals' terms.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
May Sage and other literature-type experts can help him and TypeZeiss out? What is a "Negro" defined by someone in the TENTH Century. I thought Negro was invented in the 17th Century? More BS by posters who cannot tell when they are be fooled?

the arabic word used in the original document is Suda (blacks, plural). This is just a translation of the original arabic (A language I know, read and understand).
http://ic.galegroup.com/ic/whic/Referenc

By the late 1300s Mali had lost its political influence over the Sahara. The TUAREG people of the desert took advantage of the empire's weakness and captured the trading city of TIMBUKTU. In the 1400s Songhai, the last of the great Sudanic empires, rose in power. SUNNI ALI, a Songhai ruler, chased the Tuareg from Timbuktu and gradually gained control of a large area around the middle NIGER RIVER. Songhai enjoyed its greatest power in the 1500s under the members of the Askiya dynasty*, who formed alliances with the Tuareg and extended the empire over large portions of the western Sudan. In 1591 MOROCCO conquered Songhai, bringing the 800-year history of the Sudanic empires to an end.

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xyyman
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?? your point? anyways TZ did not answer the question. Why didn't he use black(Suda)instead of "negro". Negro is misleading. Black isn't. Will you people stop it!!!


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
May Sage and other literature-type experts can help him and TypeZeiss out? What is a "Negro" defined by someone in the TENTH Century. I thought Negro was invented in the 17th Century? More BS by posters who cannot tell when they are be fooled?

the arabic word used in the original document is Suda (blacks, plural). This is just a translation of the original arabic (A language I know, read and understand).
http://ic.galegroup.com/ic/whic/Referenc

By the late 1300s Mali had lost its political influence over the Sahara. The TUAREG people of the desert took advantage of the empire's weakness and captured the trading city of TIMBUKTU. In the 1400s Songhai, the last of the great Sudanic empires, rose in power. SUNNI ALI, a Songhai ruler, chased the Tuareg from Timbuktu and gradually gained control of a large area around the middle NIGER RIVER. Songhai enjoyed its greatest power in the 1500s under the members of the Askiya dynasty*, who formed alliances with the Tuareg and extended the empire over large portions of the western Sudan. In 1591 MOROCCO conquered Songhai, bringing the 800-year history of the Sudanic empires to an end.


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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Thanks for the perspective. These lighter skinned Tuareg nobles remind me of some ancient Arabian tribes in that they're both often assumed to be non African but have all these cultural features (such as queens and matriarchs) that we wouldn't associate with the proposed Eurasian source populations. This is why terms like non-indigenous can be problematic when applied North Africans beyond certain lineages. As Keita often points out, the fact that Berber languages and other features show little evidence of mixture shows that foreigners were assimilated on locals' terms.

Swenet, I recommend the same book that Ausar referred me to-- Tribes of the Sahara by Lloyd Cabot Briggs. It's a very old book with outdated information in regards to bio-anthropology with its Coonian racial polemics however the cultural anthropology in regards to customs and folkore is invaluable! Briggs has documented many tribes preserving pre-Islamic and pre-Arab customs among many Saharan tribes not only the Tuareg.
Also, the lighter skin of Tuareg nobles tends to be exaggerated as Briggs and other old authors use the Coonian phrase "brun-white" to describe their typical complexion. Such a complexion can be found in Ethiopians as well as rural Arabian tribes. Speaking of which, matriarchal customs were once found among southern Arabian tribes like the Mahra and Qara as well.

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Interesting. That's the same Briggs who studied Maghrebi skeletal remains.
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Djehuti
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^ Correct. Explorer once posted excerpts from Briggs' assessment:

"The Negroid increment of which there is evidence in some of our Northern Neolithic Series, notably Kef-el-Agab 1 and Troglodytes 1 (both in Tunisia), may have well come in the same way from the South to add to the already slightly Negroid Hamitic cast of the African Mediterraneans and of their partial derivative, the Mechta-Afalou Type."

and

"...Type B which fits, in all essential respects, the usual definition of the Mediterranean racial type, but sometimes shows also certain morphological peculiarities commonly known as "Boskopid," as well as Negroid features among females. Type B therefore was classified as African Mediterranean...It may have well acquired its "Boskopid" traits on the road, near the headwaters of the Nile, and kidnapped a few Negro or heavily Negroid women on its way west before turning northward into Northwest Africa. The peculiar characteristics of such women could have been restricted largely to females, at least for a time, by artificial selection in the form of preferential mating."

from Briggs, Stone Age Races of Northwest Africa, pgs 81 & 89 respectively

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Swenet
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Note that Briggs seems to subscribe to the same Nile to Maghreb migration view of the first Iberomaurusians I also subscribe to. But he sees the Nile Valley as a 'way station' along a migration path that started in Eurasia.

Rather than something they picked up along the way and something that got added to their Eurasian core population (Brigg's view), those 'negroid' features can be much better explained as part and parcel of the variations of the first Iberomaurusians and Aterians (the view I subscribe to). The Eurasian lineages in the much later Taforalt and Afalou samples would then explain why those negroid features were only, as Briggs put it, "incremental" and found in combination with phenotypes we often associate with Eurasian AMHs.

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Djehuti
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^ Yes, that's the theory I myself subscribe to. This would explain why after the neolithic or even more recently there were massive reductions in population diversity with founder effects for say Eurasian maternal clades (hg H) the way there was for paternal clades (hg E).
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
May Sage and other literature-type experts can help him and TypeZeiss out? What is a "Negro" defined by someone in the TENTH Century. I thought Negro was invented in the 17th Century? More BS by posters who cannot tell when they are be fooled?

the arabic word used in the original document is Suda (blacks, plural). This is just a translation of the original arabic (A language I know, read and understand).
http://ic.galegroup.com/ic/whic/Referenc

By the late 1300s Mali had lost its political influence over the Sahara. The TUAREG people of the desert took advantage of the empire's weakness and captured the trading city of TIMBUKTU. In the 1400s Songhai, the last of the great Sudanic empires, rose in power. SUNNI ALI, a Songhai ruler, chased the Tuareg from Timbuktu and gradually gained control of a large area around the middle NIGER RIVER. Songhai enjoyed its greatest power in the 1500s under the members of the Askiya dynasty*, who formed alliances with the Tuareg and extended the empire over large portions of the western Sudan. In 1591 MOROCCO conquered Songhai, bringing the 800-year history of the Sudanic empires to an end.

What has your post to do with Suda or Aswahadi?


http://ic.galegroup.com/ic/whic/ReferenceDetailsPage/ReferenceDetailsWindow?zid=ee243273a9e5e30f0117541c4b16bff3&action=2&catId=&documentId=GALE%7CCX3400100398&userGroupName=seat24 826&jsid=db381d6532de00617f6581548db064ac

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the lioness,
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Don't ask me any questions you dumb racist piece of sh!t
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Don't ask me any questions you dumb racist piece of sh!t

LOL It is because you can't answer to the irrelevant bullshit you post, racist piece of s***! As long as you can divide and breakup Africans you are satisfied, typical white supremacy agenda. This to you is not even a question to be considered, it is to you automatic pilot. And your history in this is well known here.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
The Songhay state patronized Islamic institutions and sponsored public buildings, mosques and libraries. One notable example is the Great Mosque of Jenne, which was built in the 12th or 13th century. The Great Mosque of Jenne remains the largest earthen building in the world. By the 16th century there were several centers of trade and Islamic learning in the Niger Bend region, most notably the famed Timbuktu. Arab chroniclers tell us that the pastoral nomadic Tuareg founded Timbuktu as a trading outpost. The city’s multicultural population, regional trade, and Islamic scholarship fostered a cosmopolitan environment. In 1325, the city’s population was around 10,000. At its apex, in the 16th century, the population is estimated to have been between 30,000 and 50,000. Timbuktu attracted scholars from throughout the Muslim world.
--Margari Hill,

The Spread of Islam in West Africa: Containment, Mixing, and Reform from the Eighth to the Twentieth Century

Stanford University
January 2009

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
My question is whether there is any genetic evidence to support or corroborate this oral tradition? So far we have evidence of some genetic ties to the Beja and east Africa but is there any evidence of ancient Arabian lineages?


The Libyan Tuareg don't carry the the paternal Arab marker haplogroup J
Arabs have high frequencies of mtDNA R0
mtDNA Haplogroup R and its descendants are distributed all over Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, the Near East, the Indian Subcontinent, Oceania and the Americas.

Haplogroup H is a descendant of haplogroup HV. Haplogroup HV derives from the Haplogroup R0

Libyan Tuaregs are characterized by a major “European” component shared with the Berbers that could be traced to the Iberian Peninsula rather than Arabia

The largest population by far of Tuareg is in Niger however and they have much more L ancestry
.
https://i.imgbox.com/E8h6gg7a.png

Likely mtDNA R0 arose at East Africa, by a small pockets who harbored into the Arabian Peninsula.

quote:
R arose during the period of drift that took place somewhere between East Africa and India before the geographical spread started
--Hans-Jürgen Bandelt et al

Human Mitochondrial DNA and the Evolution of Homo sapiens


 -

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yes, that's the theory I myself subscribe to. This would explain why after the neolithic or even more recently there were massive reductions in population diversity with founder effects for say Eurasian maternal clades (hg H) the way there was for paternal clades (hg E).

How do you think Afalou 28's distinctive morphology fits into all of this? Read the Holliday 2013 paper to see what I mean. Unfortunately this individual is not among the Afalou aDNA samples.
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Swenet
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Bump for DJ (in case you missed it).
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Swenet
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Bump
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Djehuti
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^ Yeah, I know that Afalou 28 exhibits many basic African traits of the crania but I don't know too much about his post-cranial remains, but I will go back and read the Holliday study with that in mind.
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Swenet
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I have my own ideas about how Afalou 28 fits in the picture, but it would be interesting to see someone else's analysis.

On a couple of things we can agree. Firstly, Afalou 28 is somewhat distinctive morphologically. Secondly, Afalou 28 is among the earliest individuals in the Afalou sample. Thirdly, this makes it likely that Afalou 28 is not just randomly different, but different precisely because he's not a contemporary of most of the rest of the Afalou sample.

Lioness, pay attention. See where this is going? This doesn't bode well for your Kefi citations that the Eurasian aDNA found so far in the Maghreb goes back >20ky and represents the first Iberomaurusians.

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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
I have my own ideas about how Afalou 28 fits in the picture, but it would be interesting to see someone else's analysis.

On a couple of things we can agree. Firstly, Afalou 28 is somewhat distinctive morphologically. Secondly, Afalou 28 is among the earliest individuals in the Afalou sample. Thirdly, this makes it likely that Afalou 28 is not just randomly different, but different precisely because he's not a contemporary of most of the rest of the Afalou sample.

Lioness, pay attention. See where this is going? This doesn't bode well for your Kefi citations that the Eurasian aDNA found so far in the Maghreb goes back >20ky and represents the first Iberomaurusians.

Wait weren't the first Iberomaurusians Eurasian?
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Swenet
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The whole reason why we were discussing Pennarun was to make the point that the FIRST Iberomaurusian tools seem to have come from the eastern Sahara. Remember?

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I never heard the bolded before. Again VERY game changing for me... I always assumed the Nile Valley and Maghreb were always divorced from other another i.e Maghreb clades like U6 and E-M81 hardly being found in the Nile Valley. Anyways all in all are you saying the FIRST people of the Iberomaurusian industry had affinities with those from the Nile Valley, but they were soon absorbed by migrating Eurasians?

Pennarun talks about the close relationship between the Iberomaurusian and certain Nile Valley industries in the part of the paper I brought up earlier. I think you may have missed the fact that Egypt is in the list. Note also that they list Upper Egypt first, meaning, the oldest, in their list of dates.

quote:
Whilst a techno-typological shift occurred within the Dabban ~33 KYA [19], starker changes in the archaeological record occurred throughout North Africa and Southwest Asia ~23-20 KYA, represented by the widespread appearance of backed bladelet technologies. The appearance of these backed bladelet industries more or less coincides with the timing of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) (~23-18 KYA), including: ~21 KYA in Upper Egypt [20]; ~20 KYA at Haua Fteah with the Oranian [21]; the Iberomaurusian expansion in the Jebel Gharbi ~20 KYA [22]; and the first Iberomaurusian at Tamar Hat in Algeria ~20 KYA [23]. The earliest Iberomaurusian sites in Morocco appear to be only slightly younger ~18 KYA [24]. Whilst backed bladelet production is broadly shared across the different regions of North and East Africa, there was also a level of regional cultural diversity during this period, possibly mirroring a diversification of populations.
--Pennarun et al 2012 [/QB]
Weeks ago you posted this in this thread:

"Anyways all in all are you saying the FIRST people of the Iberomaurusian industry had affinities with those from the Nile Valley, but they were soon absorbed by migrating Eurasians?"

So, you correctly summed up what the evidence suggests. And now, you seem to have reached a different conclusion. What changed? How did you come to the conclusion that the first Iberomaurusians were Eurasian?

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Askia_The_Great
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^My bad Swenet ever since I went to Ethiopia I completely lost track of everything and totally forgot that discussion! Man I have bad memory. lol

I need to reread this thread to refresh myself.

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Swenet
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Lol. Makes me wonder what you've been up to over there bro. Chewing on khat? No, just kidding. Probably just means you had a great vacation. [Wink]
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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Lol. Makes me wonder what you've been up to over there bro. Chewing on khat? No, just kidding. Probably just means you had a great vacation. [Wink]

It was VERY SURREAL! I was thinking about posting some of the stuff I saw on here like Lucy for example.

Matter fact I'll post some right now...

Lucy:
http://i.imgur.com/emHwdOn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/W5yqEI2.jpg

Lucy's daughter:
http://i.imgur.com/NNxn0Rf.jpg

I think everyone who is interested in African history should really visit Ethiopia or just Africa in general. Seeing Ethiopians in their own country instead of in America or online you get to see their REAL diversity...

And lol @ "chewing on khat" I didn't get to try Khat. I know its popular in the Horn. But yeah the whole vacation was breath taking.

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Ish Geber
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Cultural affinities.

quote:
The Tamasheq language


Tamasheq (or Tamajeq, or Tamaheq, stemming from the word Tamazight) is the language of the Tuareg, a nomadic people that has been settled in the desert areas of North Africa for millennia, over a vast territory reaching from Mali to Libya, from Burkina Faso to Algeria, and including Niger. There are around one million speakers of Tamasheq.


As are Kabyle, Shawia, or Rifian, Tamasheq is actually a variant of Berber (or Tamazight), a group of languages found in the entire part of North Africa (Marocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Niger, Mauritania, Mali, and Burkina Faso), not to mention a large diaspora in Europe and America. In total, estimations account for over 45 million speakers of Berber languages.


One distinctive feature of the Berber language is its writing. An alphabet known as Tifinagh appeared during the first millennium B.C., and despite its disappearing in most of the North where it was replaced by Roman and Arabic alphabets, the Tuareg have been using it ever since. In the second half of the 20th century, a modern version, first created by the Berber Academy, and then modified by linguists to reach a standard form that would be suitable to all types of idioms, is now widely used in the North, and was even formalized in Morocco in 2001. This Alphabet, known as Neo-Tifinagh, while raising enthusiasm in the North, still encounters reluctance among the Tuareg people.

http://www.sorosoro.org/en/2011/07/the-tamasheq-language/



quote:

The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert approximately 3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them are examined. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and subsequent gene flow. This issue is addressed by means of analyses of non-metric cranial and mandibular traits.


Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This may relate to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the relative biological proximity of populations which are located along the Nile or the Mediterranean coast, such as the Kerma and Gizeh, the Algerians and Alexandrians, the Soleb and Alexandrians. Finally, females overall exhibit smaller pairwise biodistances compared to males, possibly due to the greater gene flow in the female population as a result of their greater mobility because of various marital networks.


To conclude, the Sahara Desert restricted population contacts in the Late Holocene, once it had turned hyper-arid. The trade networks must have involved only a specialized sub-set of merchants, while females dispersed more widely, possibly due to patrilocal marital networks.

~Efthymia Nikita, Marta Mirazón Lahr and David Mattingly
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Non-metric Cranial Traits and Biological Affinities of North African Late Holocene Populations

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Ledama Kenya
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quote:
Originally posted by Linda Fahr:

__________________

Elimu,

What do you think Amerindians living in the dense Amazon forest in South America do eat? Do they have crops? Yes!
They have crops of Cassava, corn, dozen of different types of potatoes, and a diversity of hundred of different fruits.

People living in dense forests, cut just enough trees to plant crops such as corn. Roots, which are the main source of carbohydrate among Amerindians and Africans grown naturally between trees in dense forests.

Now, I am wondering who made the Monolith circle in Senegal and Gambia, as well pottery and iron tools, in third century B.C ???. It is about 2300 years old.

Actually, I think it is older than that, but, you know, Europeans and Americans archaeologists always decrease the age of ancient monuments found in Africa. If those monoliths, pottery and iron tools were found in Europe, I am sure, they would increased the age to ten thousand years or more...

The monoliths in Senegambia were made by Bantu Libyans who migrated 3000yrs ago west along the North African Mediterranean coast towards Morocco North west Africa and finally to Senegambia 2300 yrs ago. The 2nd group of Bantus migrated south along white Nile towards Sudan, great lakes and south east Africa.

Cattle cannot survive inside equatorial rain forests, No evidence of agricultural activities 3000yrs ago inside the rain forests or in 'Cameroon and Nigeria the supposed cradle land of Bantus'. Infact the oral history of Bantu speaking Cameroonians and Nigerians speak of migration from North East Africa (Nile Valley). Bantus have taboos about Forests. that's why even in Congo it is the pygmies who live in Forests, Not Bantus.

I will explain in another thread(Kemet section), the connection of Fulani to ancient Lydians and their migration from Asia minor to Lybia), Berber Tamashek and Chadic speakers to ancient Sidonians(Ancient black Anatolians), Amhara of Ethiopia to ancient Medes,Elamites and sea peoples. Tigray/Tigrinya of Eritrea connection to Akkadians,Himyarites and Axumites.

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