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Author Topic: Chad Genetic Diversity : Multiple Eurasian Migrations 2016
Djehuti
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^ That still doesn't answer my question. Are you saying Cameroonians are not indigenous but Eurasian?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] Again, I ask why it seems the author is trying to associate R1 in Africa with Chadic or Afrasian when it's highest frequency is among Niger-Congo speakers?


quote:


[QUOTE]

Within Africa, the highest frequencies of the R-V88 haplogroup (and its commonest sub-clade, R-V69) were observed in the central Sahel (northern Cameroon, northern Nigeria, Chad, and Niger) (Table 1; Figure 3). Immediately south of this region (southern Cameroon and southern Nigeria), frequencies drastically dropped to 0.0–4.8%. The central Sahel is characterized by a strong linguistic fragmentation with populations speaking languages belonging to three of the four linguistic families of Africa (Afroasiatic, Niger-Congo, and Nilo-Saharan). When the linguistic affiliation of the populations from the central Sahel was also taken into account, a clear-cut divide was observed between those speaking Afroasiatic languages (including the Berber-speaking Tuareg, the Semitic Arab Shuwa, and Chadic-speaking populations from northern Cameroon) and the other populations (Mann–Whitney test P=1.4 × 10−3), with Chadic-speaking populations mostly contributing to this difference. It is worth noting that, if the finding of 20% R-V88 chromosomes among the Hausa (Table 1) is representative, this population, encompassing by far more people than all other Chadic speakers,44 also encompasses the highest absolute number of V88 carriers.

In contrast to prior studies on nuclear (mostly autosomal) ins/del and microsatellite markers,45 the Chadic are distinguished from the Nilo-Saharan-speaking populations at the Y chromosome variation level (Table 1; Supplementary Table 3). Repeated assimilations of Nilo-Saharan females over generations may account for these conflicting signals. Among the Niger-Congo-speaking populations, the frequency of the haplogroup R-V88 ranged between 0.0 and 66.7%. Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis. Although the presence of the haplogroup R-V88 at non-negligible frequencies in some Niger-Congo-speaking populations from the central Sahel can be accounted for by Chadic admixture favored by geographic contiguity, the presence of this haplogroup both in northern Africa and the central Sahel is especially intriguing given that >1500 km across the Sahara separate the two regions. The expansion time for the haplogroup R-V88 in Africa, under two different population models (see Materials and methods), was found to be 9.2–5.6 ky (95% CI=7.6–10.8 ky and 4.7–6.6 ky, respectively).

Diverse hypotheses have been proposed to explain the process by which proto-Chadic speakers arrived to the Lake Chad region. Ehret46 has put forward a model for Afroasiatic languages with a primary division between the Omotic languages of Ethiopia and an Erythraean subgroup. This, in turn, has been subdivided into Cushitic and North Erythraean, the latter including Berber, Semitic, Ancient Egyptian, and Chadic. In his opinion, around 7000 kya proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers may have moved west through the Central Sahara and then farther south into the Lake Chad Basin.47 Blench,48 in turn, suggested that speakers of proto-Cushitic–Chadic language migrated east-to-west from the Middle Nile to the Lake Chad, and recent mtDNA data support this view.49 However, in contrast to the mtDNA, a strong connection between Chadic and other Afroasiatic populations from Northern Africa is revealed by the Y chromosome data. This finding would indicate the trans-Saharan47 a more likely scenario than the inter-Saharan hypothesis,48 at least as far as the male component of gene pool is concerned. In this view, it is tempting to speculate that the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88 represents a preserved genetic record of gene flow along the same axis as the proposed spread of proto-Chadic languages.47 Indeed, geomorphological evidence4 from the paleolakes that existed in the Sahara during the mid-Holocene indicates that these lakes could have covered an area as large as about 10% of the Sahara, providing an important corridor for human migrations across the region.5

In summary, our data indicate a significant male contribution from northern Africa (and ultimately Asia) to the gene pool of the central Sahel. The trans-Saharan population movements resulting in this genetic pattern would seem to mirror the spread of the proto-Chadic languages, and most likely took place during the early mid Holocene, a period when giant paleolakes may have provided a corridor for human migrations across what is now the Sahara desert.

Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Fulvio Cruciani
2010



^ see Ish Gebor, this is how to quote properly. The quote is directly related to answer the question rather than on a tangent
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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ That still doesn't answer my question. Are you saying Cameroonians are not indigenous but Eurasian?

Smokescreen, and their occams razor lol
It was 2016 when this paper was published - probably 2015 when the study was completed. Thou with any updated historical knowledge knows V88 isn't an A-Asiatic indicator. However wording that the possible Eurasian backflow via V88 contributed to the spread of AA in SSA nudges readers to believe Afroasiatic and other Sahelian cultural phenomenon are not a product of SSAn development.

Lets not focus on the fact that we have V88 possibly existing almost 10k years before it's emergence in Chad-Cameroon according to this paper
quote:
We estimate that the Eurasian R1b lineages initially diverged 7,300–9,400 ya, at the time of the Neolithic expansions. However, we found that the African and Eurasian R1b lineages diverged 17,900–23,000 ya, suggesting that genetic structure was already established between the groups who expanded to Europe and Africa.
...Ok So this means 1 of two things, The so called African Haplogroup of v88 (non derived) should be detectable OOA or Precursor Haplogroups should be found somewhere around chad or Cameroon because...
quote:
We estimate that mixture occurred 4,750–7,200 ya, thus after the Neolithic transition in the Near East, a period characterized by exponential growth in human population size.
Due to the fact that they dated the Chadian R1b branch to before the date directly above We should expect to see some chadian R1b well outside of chad, The simple fact that we have V88(derived) possibly emerging within the time frame of admixture is fucking convenient either way you put it.
quote:
tip.We estimate that the Chadian R1b emerged 5,700–7,300 ya, whereas most European R1b haplogroups emerged 7,300–9,400 ya.
DOI:10.1016/j.ajhg.2016.10.012
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the lioness,
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 -

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the lioness,
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there is some interesting commentary of the thread topic article here;

Euroegenes Blog

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/11/multiple-holocene-eurasian-migrations.html

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, I ask why it seems the author is trying to associate R1 in Africa with Chadic or Afrasian when it's highest frequency is among Niger-Congo speakers?

Also, why associate R1 (R1b or otherwise) with Afrasian or any language phylum at all when it predates all modern language phyla.

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The irony is that there are far more Afrasian speakers in Africa who carry the Eurasian clade hg T than R!

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It's because Chadic speaking groups carry that marker, all over West Africa. And secondly to explain civilization as intrusion.

I remember this earlier discussion on HgT, perhaps it is useful.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004362;p=1#000004

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

^ see Ish Gebor, this is how to quote properly. The quote is directly related to answer the question rather than on a tangent

LOL Retard.


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http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/fig_tab/ejhg2009231f1.html

--Fulvio Cruciani (2010)


quote:


This branching pattern, along with the geographical distribution of the major clades A, B, and CT, has been interpreted as supporting an African origin for anatomically modern humans,10 with Khoisan from south Africa and Ethiopians from east Africa sharing the deepest lineages of the phylogeny.15 and 16

[...]


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The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).

[...]

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How does the present MSY tree compare with the backbone of the recently published “reference” MSY phylogeny?13 The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

--Fulvio Cruciani et al (2011)

A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929711001649

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Ish Geber
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quote:
The haplogroup R1b1a (R-V88) was found with a fre- quency of 8% in the village of Al Awaynat. Generally, haplogroup R and its subsets are spread in Eurasia as far as Siberia (Karafet et al., 2008; Chiaroni et al., 2009; Lancaster, 2010). Nevertheless, R1b1a has been observed at high frequencies in Northwest Africa (27% in the Egyptian Berbers), with peaks in the Chadic-speaking populations from Central Africa, ranging from 29 to 96% in Cameroon, and very rarely is found outside Africa (Cruciani et al., 2010a,b). This haplogroup has been pro- posed to represent the paternal genetic signature of the mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afro-asiatic speakers across the Central Sahara to Lake Chad (Ehret, 2002; Cruciani et al., 2010a); this suggests a link between Chadic speakers and other Afro-Asiatic speak- ers to the north of the Sahara.
In the eight-microsatellite Network analysis of R1b1a chromosomes from Northern and Central Africa (Fig. S2), the Libyan Tuareg R1b1a Y-chromosomes were found to belong to a branch characterized exclusively by haplotypes from Central Africa, more particularly from the Chad area (Cruciani et al., 2010a). This may be likely explained by recent introduction through the slavery practices mentioned above. Nonetheless, the hypothesis that the Libyan Tuareg R1b1a haplotypes may be relics of the migration of Pastoral proto-Chadic speakers, as hypothesized by the ‘‘trans-Saharan’’ hypothesis (Ehret, 2002; Cruciani et al., 2010a), cannot be ruled out

--Claudio Ottoni, et al. (2011)

Deep Into the Roots of the Libyan Tuareg: A Genetic Survey of Their Paternal Heritage

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Djehuti
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Sorry, here is another image of hg T distribution.

 -

This topic was covered numerous times including here, here, and here

Not surprisingly Eurocentrists like Lioness seem to be fixated on alleged Eurasian clades like R which are relatively rare overall in the African continent while ignoring the blatant E clade in their homeland of Europe which accounts for one-third of the Y chromosomes of that subcontinent!

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Elmaestro
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^Didn't you check out the link to eupedia Lioness posted?? it seems there are people out there whom believe Hg E Is in fact Eurasian as well!! lol... though She/he/it was right, there were some interesting commentary on this article.
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Doug M
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Posting this again.
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Here is the key question that people need to be asking and I know this has been discussed here before but it needs to be reiterated. How come African genes outside Africa are quickly labeled as something other than African because of splits, yet so-called Eurasian genes in Africa are Eurasian even thousands of years later and after multiple splits?

See the pattern here? Multiple papers in a short time period talking of ancient "Eurasian" lineages in Africa, yet Africa is the BASIS of all humans on the planet and there are HARDLY ANY papers on African lineages in Europe, the Levant, Asia and elsewhere. Sounds like a double standard to me.

The following wiki page shows how arbitrary and contradictory the logic goes regarding labeling African genetics versus Eurasian genetics. By the logic they use to label "Eurasian" mixture in Africa, ALL HUMANS outside of Africa and their lineages should be labeled as African for the first 10,000 years of human existence outside of Africa. But note that they don't do this.... Wonder why? Keep in mind that Neanderthal admixture is one scam they use to justify this nonsense.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_admixture_in_Europe


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the lioness,
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Haplogroup R-V88 is thought to originated in thew Cameroon/Chad region
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:

^Didn't you check out the link to eupedia Lioness posted?? it seems there are people out there whom believe Hg E Is in fact Eurasian as well!! lol... though She/he/it was right, there were some interesting commentary on this article.

Even mainstream geneticists have come to the consensus that hg E-M96 most likely arose in Africa especially since its ancestral clade DE* was found mainly in West African populations. Even if one were to go with the hypothesis that E arose in Eurasia, it would have risen somewhere in Southwest Asia around the the time of the first major OOA event and then immediately migrated right back to Africa where it expanded and diversified. LOL Even if one were to go by this more convoluted path, I doubt these back-migrating 'Eurasians' would have been any different from their African kin whom they only recently separated from only to rejoin!

Getting back to the topic, I fail to see how hg R (V88 or otherwise) in Chad has anything to do with Chadic language.


"It is possible from this overview of the data to conclude that the limited conceptual vocabulary shared by the ancestors of contemporary Chadic-speakers (therefore also contemporary Cushitic-speakers), contemporary Nilotic-speakers and Ancient Egyptian-speakers suggests that the earliest speakers of the Egyptian language could be located to the south of Upper Egypt (Diakonoff 1998) or, earlier, in the Sahara (Wendorf 2004), where Takács (1999, 47) suggests their ‘long co-existence’ can be found. In addition, it is consistent with this view to suggest that the northern border of their homeland was further than the Wadi Howar proposed by Blench (1999, 2001), which is actually its southern border. Neither Chadics nor Cushitics existed at this time, but their ancestors lived in a homeland further north than the peripheral countries that they inhabited thereafter, to the south-west, in a Niger-Congo environment, and to the south-east, in a Nilo-Saharan environment, where they interacted and innovated in terms of language. From this perspective, the Upper Egyptian cultures were an ancient North East African ‘periphery at the crossroads’, as suggested by Dahl and Hjort-af-Ornas of the Beja (Dahl and Hjort-af-Ornas 2006). The most likely scenario could be this: some of these Saharo-Nubian populations spread southwards to Wadi Howar, Ennedi and Darfur; some stayed in the actual oases where they joined the inhabitants; and others moved towards the Nile, directed by two geographic obstacles, the western Great Sand Sea and the southern Rock Belt. Their slow perambulations led them from the area of Sprinkle Mountain (Gebel Uweinat) to the east – Bir Sahara, Nabta Playa, Gebel Ramlah, and Nekhen/Hierakonpolis (Upper Egypt), and to the north-east by way of Dakhla Oasis to Abydos (Middle Egypt)."--Anselin (2009)

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Haplogroup R-V88 is thought to originated in thew Cameroon/Chad region

You might wanna revisit that post.

The 7ky old V88 Y chromosome in Iberia casts doubt on V88 originating in West/Central Africa. It can't be in West/Central Africa and Iberia at the same time so close to its estimated age. You're better off stating that most or all of the current variation of R-V88 comes from the Cameroon/Chad region.

I think you might have missed that extra information because I see that you quoted an older version of that post at the time that doesn't contain the caveats I put in there.

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Clyde Winters
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Just because the oldest instance of a probable R1b-V88 in Iberia dates to 7,100ya (ID I0410, Els Trocs, Spain, Haak et al. 2015), does not make it older than the Chadian clade. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).

The fact that the earliest R1b aY-chromosome comes from Iberia should not be a surprise since West Africans frequently crossed into Eurasia via Iberia, instead of the Levant.

In Africa we find V45 (R-M207) and V88. Clearly, R-V88 in Chad is older than V88 in Iberia, Most importantly there is no archaeological evidence of a back migration of haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Saharans into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Swenet
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Reread what I said, including the linked posts.
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Ase
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Haplogroup R-V88 is thought to originated in thew Cameroon/Chad region

You might wanna revisit that post.

The 7ky old V88 Y chromosome in Iberia casts doubt on V88 originating in West/Central Africa. It can't be in West/Central Africa and Iberia at the same time so close to its estimated age. You're better off stating that most or all of the current variation of R-V88 comes from the Cameroon/Chad region.

I think you might have missed that extra information because I see that you quoted an older version of that post at the time that doesn't contain the caveats I put in there.

But weren't Iberians around this time Africans? [Confused]

2005 Eva Fernández Domínguez

Nerja, Málaga (Spain)

NE-NM82.2 (Sample Name 2NE): Haplogroup J*: 17000-20000
NE-NAP (Sample Name 4NE): Haplogroup L1b: 2,260 BC
NE-1829 (Sample Name 5NE): Haplogroup L1b: 5.875±80 A.P.


Tres Montes, Navarra (Spain)

TM-3: (sample name: 1TM2): Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-6: (sample name: 1TM4): Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-6: (sample name: 2TM4): Haplogroup H/K: 4130 A.P
TM-8: (sample name: 1TM5) Haplogroup J* : 4130 A.P
TM-11: (sample name: 1TM6) Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-18: (sample: 1TM11) Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P


Toledo, Portugal
K-13 (Sample Name: TO1): Haplogroup L3a: 9200-7800 A.P.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
^Didn't you check out the link to eupedia Lioness posted?? it seems there are people out there whom believe Hg E Is in fact Eurasian as well!! lol... though She/he/it was right, there were some interesting commentary on this article.

Yeah, that is what I stated earlier on. Lioness advocated this one as well on a few occasions.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Haplogroup R-V88 is thought to originated in thew Cameroon/Chad region

You might wanna revisit that post.

The 7ky old V88 Y chromosome in Iberia casts doubt on V88 originating in West/Central Africa. It can't be in West/Central Africa and Iberia at the same time so close to its estimated age. You're better off stating that most or all of the current variation of R-V88 comes from the Cameroon/Chad region.

I think you might have missed that extra information because I see that you quoted an older version of that post at the time that doesn't contain the caveats I put in there.

Swenet,

What are the mtDNA L* markers correlating with these West / Central African populations?

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Sorry, here is another image of hg T distribution.

 -

This topic was covered numerous times including here, here, and here

Not surprisingly Eurocentrists like Lioness seem to be fixated on alleged Eurasian clades like R which are relatively rare overall in the African continent while ignoring the blatant E clade in their homeland of Europe which accounts for one-third of the Y chromosomes of that subcontinent!

Thanks for posting these.

I noticed The Explorer, posted 08 January, 2010 17:27. It is exactly what I have been posting on Fulvio Cruciani et al (2011), in the "A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa".

But at EG it was figured out, prior to the 2011 paper, which is amazing. lol



http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002456;p=1#000008

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Just because the oldest instance of a probable R1b-V88 in Iberia dates to 7,100ya (ID I0410, Els Trocs, Spain, Haak et al. 2015), does not make it older than the Chadian clade. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).

The fact that the earliest R1b aY-chromosome comes from Iberia should not be a surprise since West Africans frequently crossed into Eurasia via Iberia, instead of the Levant.

In Africa we find V45 (R-M207) and V88. Clearly, R-V88 in Chad is older than V88 in Iberia, Most importantly there is no archaeological evidence of a back migration of haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Saharans into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia.

I agree with both, you and Swenet.

But the question I have, and maybe I overlooked this. You correlate V45 with "R-M207". But in the Fulvio Cruciani (2010) paper, he correlates V45 with M173.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Haplogroup R-V88 is thought to originated in thew Cameroon/Chad region

You might wanna revisit that post.

The 7ky old V88 Y chromosome in Iberia casts doubt on V88 originating in West/Central Africa. It can't be in West/Central Africa and Iberia at the same time so close to its estimated age. You're better off stating that most or all of the current variation of R-V88 comes from the Cameroon/Chad region.

I think you might have missed that extra information because I see that you quoted an older version of that post at the time that doesn't contain the caveats I put in there.

But weren't Iberians around this time Africans? [Confused]

2005 Eva Fernández Domínguez

Nerja, Málaga (Spain)

NE-NM82.2 (Sample Name 2NE): Haplogroup J*: 17000-20000
NE-NAP (Sample Name 4NE): Haplogroup L1b: 2,260 BC
NE-1829 (Sample Name 5NE): Haplogroup L1b: 5.875±80 A.P.


Tres Montes, Navarra (Spain)

TM-3: (sample name: 1TM2): Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-6: (sample name: 1TM4): Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-6: (sample name: 2TM4): Haplogroup H/K: 4130 A.P
TM-8: (sample name: 1TM5) Haplogroup J* : 4130 A.P
TM-11: (sample name: 1TM6) Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-18: (sample: 1TM11) Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P


Toledo, Portugal
K-13 (Sample Name: TO1): Haplogroup L3a: 9200-7800 A.P.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that contemporary Iberians as a whole were biologically Africans, just that they likely had substantially more African ancestry than contemporary mainland Neolithic and Bronze Age Europeans away from coastal areas in reach of Africans. La Brana also dates to this period and, aside from some what looks like African ancestry in his genome, he's definitely not African.

As I told Clyde, read the post I linked to for context of what I said. In that post I said that the Iberian R-V88 carrier might be a North African branch independent of the V88 that ended up going to West/Central Africa. So, I didn't bring up Iberian V88 to argue it originated there. I was trying to argue that it's unlikely that ALL North African V88 headed to West/Central Africa.

Remember that V88 got introduced to the ancestors of Chadic speakers at a time when Chadic might have still been a common language with, or at least in contact with, proto-Berber. In that case, some carriers could have stayed in North Africa, while some carriers went south. The southern branch could then have later migrated to North Africa again, explaining why R-V88 in Siwa Berbers and other North Africans looks at least partly like a West/Central African ancestry (as opposed to a North African one).

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Just because the oldest instance of a probable R1b-V88 in Iberia dates to 7,100ya (ID I0410, Els Trocs, Spain, Haak et al. 2015), does not make it older than the Chadian clade. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).

The fact that the earliest R1b aY-chromosome comes from Iberia should not be a surprise since West Africans frequently crossed into Eurasia via Iberia, instead of the Levant.

In Africa we find V45 (R-M207) and V88. Clearly, R-V88 in Chad is older than V88 in Iberia, Most importantly there is no archaeological evidence of a back migration of haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Saharans into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia.

I agree with both, you and Swenet.

But the question I have, and maybe I overlooked this. You correlate V45 with "R-M207". But in the Fulvio Cruciani (2010) paper, he correlates V45 with M173.

This is misdirection. If you don't keep up with the literature you want know what haplogroup is what. For example, mtDNA D, is the same as M1. They just change the name for Asian M1 to make it appear that M1 is isolated in Africa.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Just because the oldest instance of a probable R1b-V88 in Iberia dates to 7,100ya (ID I0410, Els Trocs, Spain, Haak et al. 2015), does not make it older than the Chadian clade. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).

The fact that the earliest R1b aY-chromosome comes from Iberia should not be a surprise since West Africans frequently crossed into Eurasia via Iberia, instead of the Levant.

In Africa we find V45 (R-M207) and V88. Clearly, R-V88 in Chad is older than V88 in Iberia, Most importantly there is no archaeological evidence of a back migration of haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Saharans into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia.

I agree with both, you and Swenet.

But the question I have, and maybe I overlooked this. You correlate V45 with "R-M207". But in the Fulvio Cruciani (2010) paper, he correlates V45 with M173.

This is misdirection. If you don't keep up with the literature you want know what haplogroup is what. For example, mtDNA D, is the same as M1. They just change the name for Asian M1 to make it appear that M1 is isolated in Africa.
In his earlier, 2003 paper he wrote:

quote:
With the exception of a single Y chromosome from Morocco with the M269 mutation (haplotype 117b), all group IX African chromosomes are characterized by the presence of the M173 and M207 derived alleles and the absence of the downstream mutations (haplotype 117). Haplotype 117 was found only in Cameroon, where it accounts for 26% of the chromosomes (40% in northern Cameroon).
--Fulvio Cruciani

Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197–1214.
Published online 2002 Mar 21. doi: 10.1086/340257
PMCID: PMC447595

A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447595/


It is as if people have been riding this horse ever since ( or for political reasons have been beating this death horse) and he, Fulvio, continued to move on.


But if correct you're saying that R-M207 equals M173, right?

Reading his paper again:

quote:
These are: (1) haplotype 12b, carrying the M218 mutation but ancestral at M109; (2) haplotype 19b, carrying the derived alleles at M236 and M288 but ancestral at M146; (3) haplotype 41b, carrying the mutated allele at M98 but ancestral at M85; and (4) haplotype 117b, carrying the M269 derived allele on a M207/M173 background.

In his 2011 paper, Fulvio indeed correlates CT chromosomes with V45. So theoretically CT replaced M207.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Haplogroup R-V88 is thought to originated in thew Cameroon/Chad region

You might wanna revisit that post.

The 7ky old V88 Y chromosome in Iberia casts doubt on V88 originating in West/Central Africa. It can't be in West/Central Africa and Iberia at the same time so close to its estimated age. You're better off stating that most or all of the current variation of R-V88 comes from the Cameroon/Chad region.

I think you might have missed that extra information because I see that you quoted an older version of that post at the time that doesn't contain the caveats I put in there.

But weren't Iberians around this time Africans? [Confused]

2005 Eva Fernández Domínguez

Nerja, Málaga (Spain)

NE-NM82.2 (Sample Name 2NE): Haplogroup J*: 17000-20000
NE-NAP (Sample Name 4NE): Haplogroup L1b: 2,260 BC
NE-1829 (Sample Name 5NE): Haplogroup L1b: 5.875±80 A.P.


Tres Montes, Navarra (Spain)

TM-3: (sample name: 1TM2): Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-6: (sample name: 1TM4): Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-6: (sample name: 2TM4): Haplogroup H/K: 4130 A.P
TM-8: (sample name: 1TM5) Haplogroup J* : 4130 A.P
TM-11: (sample name: 1TM6) Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-18: (sample: 1TM11) Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P


Toledo, Portugal
K-13 (Sample Name: TO1): Haplogroup L3a: 9200-7800 A.P.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that contemporary Iberians as a whole are biologically Africans, just that they likely had substantially more African ancestry than contemporary mainland Bronze Age Europeans away from coastal areas in reach of Africans.

As I told Clyde, read the post I linked to for context of what I said. In that post I said that the Iberian R-V88 carrier might be a North African branch independent of the V88 that ended up going to West/Central Africa. So, I didn't bring up Iberian V88 to argue it originated there. I was trying to argue that it's unlikely that ALL North African V88 headed to West/Central Africa.

Remember that V88 got introduced to the ancestors of Chadic speakers at a time when Chadic and Berber might have still been a common language with, or at least in contact with, proto-Berber. In that case, some carriers could have stayed in North Africa, while some carriers went south. The southern branch could then have later migrated to North Africa again, explaining why R-V88 in Siwa Berbers and other North Africans looks at least partly like a West/Central African ancestry (as opposed to a North African one).

Swenet, do you think some of these L* markers (posted by Oshun ) could relate to Southern Tuareg populations?

quote:
The haplogroup R1b1a (R-V88) was found with a frequency of 8% in the village of Al Awaynat. Generally, haplogroup R and its subsets are spread in Eurasia as far as Siberia (Karafet et al., 2008; Chiaroni et al., 2009; Lancaster, 2010). Nevertheless, R1b1a has been observed at high frequencies in Northwest Africa (27% in the Egyptian Berbers), with peaks in the Chadic-speaking populations from Central Africa, ranging from 29 to 96% in Cameroon, and very rarely is found outside Africa (Cruciani et al., 2010a,b). This haplogroup has been proposed to represent the paternal genetic signature of the mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afro-asiatic speakers across the Central Sahara to Lake Chad (Ehret, 2002; Cruciani et al., 2010a); this suggests a link between Chadic speakers and other Afro-Asiatic speakers to the north of the Sahara.


In the eight-microsatellite Network analysis of R1b1a chromosomes from Northern and Central Africa (Fig. S2), the Libyan Tuareg R1b1a Y-chromosomes were found to belong to a branch characterized exclusively by haplotypes from Central Africa, more particularly from the Chad area (Cruciani et al., 2010a).

This may be likely explained by recent introduction through the slavery practices mentioned above.

Nonetheless, the hypothesis that the Libyan Tuareg R1b1a haplotypes may be relics of the migration of Pastoral proto-Chadic speakers, as hypothesized by the ‘‘trans-Saharan’’ hypothesis (Ehret, 2002; Cruciani et al., 2010a), cannot be ruled out

--Claudio Ottoni, et al. (2011)

Deep Into the Roots of the Libyan Tuareg: A Genetic Survey of Their Paternal Heritage

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Haplogroup R-V88 is thought to originated in thew Cameroon/Chad region

You might wanna revisit that post.

The 7ky old V88 Y chromosome in Iberia casts doubt on V88 originating in West/Central Africa. It can't be in West/Central Africa and Iberia at the same time so close to its estimated age. You're better off stating that most or all of the current variation of R-V88 comes from the Cameroon/Chad region.

I think you might have missed that extra information because I see that you quoted an older version of that post at the time that doesn't contain the caveats I put in there.

But weren't Iberians around this time Africans? [Confused]

2005 Eva Fernández Domínguez

Nerja, Málaga (Spain)

NE-NM82.2 (Sample Name 2NE): Haplogroup J*: 17000-20000
NE-NAP (Sample Name 4NE): Haplogroup L1b: 2,260 BC
NE-1829 (Sample Name 5NE): Haplogroup L1b: 5.875±80 A.P.


Tres Montes, Navarra (Spain)

TM-3: (sample name: 1TM2): Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-6: (sample name: 1TM4): Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-6: (sample name: 2TM4): Haplogroup H/K: 4130 A.P
TM-8: (sample name: 1TM5) Haplogroup J* : 4130 A.P
TM-11: (sample name: 1TM6) Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P
TM-18: (sample: 1TM11) Haplogroup L2: 4130 A.P


Toledo, Portugal
K-13 (Sample Name: TO1): Haplogroup L3a: 9200-7800 A.P.

Swenet could be right on this,


quote:
"Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations"
--Frigi S1


quote:
Early Holocenic and Historic mtDNA African Signatures in the Iberian Peninsula: The Andalusian Region as a Paradigm
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0139784


quote:
"However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement."
--Eliška Podgorná et al.

Annals of Human Genetics
Volume 77, Issue 6, pages 513–523, November 2013

The Genetic Impact of the Lake Chad Basin Population in North Africa as Documented by Mitochondrial Diversity and Internal Variation of the L3e5 Haplogroup


quote:
"The presence of almost 50% of sub-Saharan lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region. The low frequency of these lineages in the current Spanish population indicates that it has gene produced a replacement from the Chalcolithic period. The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods. The phylogenetically related sequences present in the Chalcolithic deposit Iberian Peninsula and Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples of the Middle East points to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages."
--Fernández Domínguez, E. (2005)

Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Haplogroup R-V88 is thought to originated in thew Cameroon/Chad region

You might wanna revisit that post.

The 7ky old V88 Y chromosome in Iberia casts doubt on V88 originating in West/Central Africa. It can't be in West/Central Africa and Iberia at the same time so close to its estimated age. You're better off stating that most or all of the current variation of R-V88 comes from the Cameroon/Chad region.

I think you might have missed that extra information because I see that you quoted an older version of that post at the time that doesn't contain the caveats I put in there.

Swenet,

What are the mtDNA L* markers correlating with these West / Central African populations?

Some of the more important ones with a West/Central African origin (except for L0):

quote:
"Among the 16 expansion haplogroups, 5 lineages (L0a1a2, L2a1f, L3b1a1, L3e2a1b, and L3e3b) showed coalescence time less than 10 kya at least by three of five estimates mentioned in Methods, while the remaining 11 lineages (L0a1a, L1b1a3, L1b1a, L2a1a, L2a1c, L2a1, L3b1a, L3e1, L3e2a, L3e2b and L3d1–5) expanded before 10 kya (see Table S2). Specially, the expansion of lineage L3d1–5 took place before the LGM. From the ages estimated above, we found that most lineages shared among populations (11/15) expanded before 10 kya, i.e. the first occurrence of farming in the land of Africa. Thus, the result of lineage expansions showed that maternal African growth could be mainly attributed to pre-Neolithic expansion."
--Zheng et al 2012
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Ish Geber
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^ Thanks bro,
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Doug M
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I think that given the number of articles claiming that 'Eurasians' have significant mixture with Denisovans and Neanderthals, then if what they are saying about Eurasian mixture in Africa is true, then they should also see the Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in these African populations.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009546

But they don't......

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Djehuti
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^ That also depends on what genes one may even consider to be of another hominid species. Recall the claims of neanderthal ancestry in Maasai!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
I think that given the number of articles claiming that 'Eurasians' have significant mixture with Denisovans and Neanderthals, then if what they are saying about Eurasian mixture in Africa is true, then they should also see the Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in these African populations.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009546

But they don't......

Slowly but surely Ne/Den admixture is popping up in every corner of the dark continent... Which is my concern, I know for a fact that more and more and more SSA populations would display some form of admixture previously ruled out, eventually. It will come down to how we intemperate the data individually.
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Doug, see fig 5.

Anyone able to see and point out what needs to be said about fig 5?

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quote:


Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines hap- logroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].

[...]

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1). Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C- specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6 in the tree by Karafet et al. [14] (Figure S1). Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32,33]. To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia. Two mutations, V248 and V87, which had never been previously described, were found to be specific to haplogroups C2 and C3, respectively (Figure S1). Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Supporting Information

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF)

--Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree


quote:



To test the robustness of the backbone and the root of current Y chromosome phylogeny, we searched for SNPs that might be informative in this respect. To this aim, a resequencing analysis of a 205.9 kb MSY portion (183.5 kb in the X-degenerate and 22.4 kb in the X-transposed region) was performed for each of seven chromosomes that are representative of clade A (four chromosomes belonging to haplogroups A1a, A1b, A2, and A3), clade B, and clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R) (Table S1 available online).

The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

--Fulvio Cruciani

A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa

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