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Author Topic: Is this author on to something?
Askia_The_Great
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Are All DTC Firms Underestimating African Ancestry in Southern Europeans?
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/are-all-dtc-firms-underestimating-african-ancestry-in-southern-europeans/

quote:
At the time Dienekes had a pretty strong critique of the paper: the authors assumed that Northern Europeans were an unadmixed reference population, when in fact these populations may have had mixture from East Asians. He presented PCA plots which illustrated the fact that CEU (whites from Utah with British and German ancestry) sample were shifted toward Chinese in comparison to Sardinians. All these years later I think that in fact there is another explanation besides East Asian admixture to explain this: the Chinese themselves have some admixture from West Eurasians. The Sardinians are notably lacking in some admixture components common among mainland Europeans, so the West Eurasian admixture into Chinese probably is closer to mainland Europeans than it would be to Sardinians.

So what about the Sardinian admixture from Africans? The same dynamic might be at play here: old admixture from “Early European Farmers” into Africans might explain why they’re closer to Africans.

But let’s assume that the Sardinian admixture from Africans is legitimate. What does that mean for estimates of ancestral derivation from continental populations than you see in the DTC personal genomics firms that report ancestry results? It can only mean that among people of Southern European ancestry a few percent of African ancestry is being “masked” because it is part of the reference population set. This came to my mind because a half Cuban friend of mine had ~2% African ancestry. Reasonable. When I checked by running unsupervised ADMIXTURE he had ~4%. Then I noticed that the Sardinian reference set was often in the 1-2% range. One explanation for the discrepancy then would be that a few percent of African ancestry in his genome was simply swallowed up by the reference population in the supervised learning framework.

However, I am skeptical of the author as the name "Razid Khan" sounds familiar.
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xyyman
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Key word = supervised. It is a game played by racist geneticist. When unsupervised, Europeans can be as high as 80% African.... as it should be geographically. Lazaridis et al, Rosenberg et al etc.


quote:
' African ancestry in his genome was simply swallowed up by the reference population in the***supervised***** learning framework'

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Swenet
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No offense to you BBH, or your thread, but Razib is a klutz on anything African. Don't expect any kind of fair shake when he talks about Africa.
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xyyman
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Agreed...he is a idiot. But sometimes there is a diamond between the rocks.

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Yes, he might have gems on other topics, but I've never seen him say anything useful about Africans when it comes to common Eurocentric tropes. He always panders to his armchair anthro audience.

They all say non sense like this:

quote:
So what about the Sardinian admixture from Africans? The same dynamic might be at play here: old admixture from “Early European Farmers” into Africans might explain why they’re closer to Africans.
But what does that even mean? Llorente et al 2015's wild claims have been corrected by the authors and these pinheads are still gloating over "massive Eurasian ancestry" in Sub-Saharan Africa that "pulls southern Europeans to Africans". Where is this "massive farmer input" that they keep talking about?

Notice how he tries to emphasize that the farmer ancestry he's talking about is "old". That's often their excuse why they can't post anything official: the farmer ancestry deep inside Sub-Saharan Africa is supposedly "old" and somehow requires "special equipment" to detect.

This is simply pseudo science. This claim cannot be disproved because it's not falsifiable. It's deliberately not falsifiable. That's how they protect their worldview of not being a hybrid population. ANI is also partly Basal Eurasian so you can see how certain positions Razib takes are driven by denial.

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Askia_The_Great
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@Swenet and @Xyyman thanks for the heads up and allowing me to avoid embarrassment.
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Swenet
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There is a thread where lioness(?) quoted Razib as saying that anatomically modern humans "could" have emerged in the Levant. Nodnarb tried to reply on Razib's site with a rebuttal and Razib blocked his post. Razib knows damn well all early AMH populations were tropically adapted, so if his denial compels him to look outside of Africa for their origin, he at least has to look in the tropics, not the Levant. The fact that they conveniently "forget" to consider super basics like AMH tropical adaption tells you how deep and ingrained their denial is.

Half of the time people like Razib probably don't even believe what they say when they make these denial posts disguised as "a careful look at the evidence". His comments about Moorjani et al 2011's observation of SSA ancestry in southern Europe also fall in this lame category. They're getting worked up over 3% SSA ancestry in southern Europe and will try to use all the spin in the book to get that petty percentage to 0%. Hence the lame "massive old farmer ancestry in SSA" excuse and other excuses filled with hypotheticals and storytelling. They're just obnoxious trolls telling their audience what they want to hear.

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the lioness,
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Razib Khan on Africa

http://www.unz.com/gnxp/afro-asiatic-and-eurasian-backflow/

Afro-Asiatic and Eurasian Backflow
RAZIB KHAN • NOVEMBER 26, 2016

If you follow Y genealogy you know that the distribution of R1ba2 exhibits a peculiar pattern. R1b is the most common haplgroup in Western Eurasia, and shares a deep common ancestry with R1a. It seems to have risen to high frequencies in Europe only during the Bronze Age, though has been found in earlier periods. But within Africa R1b is found in very high concentrations around Lake Chad. This particular R1b lineage seems to have diverged from other Eurasian branches in the latter portion of the Pleistocene, so one possible consideration is that this was an instance of Eurasian backflow during the Ice Age.

One reason I have been somewhat skeptical of this model is that the Sahara desert was much more extensive and arid during much of the Pleistocene than today. And during this period humans had less cultural technology to endure the rigors of the deep desert. Or, if they did, their population densities were likely much lower, which probably served as an impediment to gene flow.

A new paper in The American Journal of Human Genetics sheds light on what might have been going on here. Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations. The major findings are straightforward. First, much greater sampling of populations, and a better depth/density of marker coverage, allowed the researchers to detect low levels, on the order of ~1%, Eurasian admixture in some Central African groups. This admixture seems to date to the Holocene, ~5,000 to ~7,000 years before the present (they used LD based methods on the autosome). Interestingly, the R1b lineage common in Central Africa also seems to coalesce during this time. Finally, the admixture seems to be closest to Sardinians among extant populations.

The Sardinian affinity of much of African Eurasian admixture may seem peculiar, but it makes more sense when one considers that Sardianians are probably the best modern proxies for the earliest Neolithic farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean. Modern Middle Eastern populations are very different from those which flourished in the prehistory between the rise of agriculture and complex civilizations because of admixture within Middle Eastern groups. The initial push into Africa by the agriculturalists dates to a period before we have a good understanding of the ethnographic balance.

Very high frequencies of R1b in modern Central Africa groups may indicate drift. But another possibility is that the migration was male-mediated. This seems to have been the case in much of Eurasia, so it would not be surprising in this context. The status of these males was such that despite their diminishing genetic impact on overall ancestry, their Y chromosomes, and possibly their language, with varied forms of Afro-Asiatic, persisting down to the present.

Finally, here’s the last paragraph of the discussion:

Our study has shown that human genetic diversity in Africa is still incompletely understood and that ancient admixture adds to its complexity. This work highlights the importance of exploring underrepresented populations, such as those from Chad, in genetic studies to improve our understanding of the demographic processes that shaped genetic variation in Africa and globally.
http://www.razib.com/wordpress/?cat=579

December 1, 2012
Africa’s hidden people hold the keys to the past

I mentioned this in passing on my post on ASHG 2012, but it seems useful to make explicit. For the past few years there has been word of research pointing to connections between the Khoisan and the Cushitic people of Ethiopia. To a great extent in the paper which is forthcoming there is the likely answer to the question of who lived in East Africa before the Bantu, and before the most recent back-migration of West Eurasians. On one level I’m confused as to why this has to be something of a mystery, because the most recent genetic evidence suggests a admixture on the order of 2-3,000 years before the past.* If the admixture was so recent we should find many of the “first people,” no? As it is, we don’t. I think these groups, and perhaps the Sandawe, are the closest we’ll get.

Publication is imminent at this point (of this, I was assured), so I’m going to just state the likely candidate population (or at least one of them): the Sanye, who speak a Cushitic language with possible Khoisan influences. There really isn’t that much information on these people, which is why when I first heard about the preliminary results a few years back and looked around for Khoisan-like populations in Kenya I wasn’t sure I’d hit upon the right group. But at ASHG I saw some STRUCTURE plots with the correct populations, and the Sanye were one of them. I would have liked to see something like TreeMix, but the STRUCTURE results were of a quality that I could accept that these populations were not being well modeled by the variation which dominated their data set. Though Cushitic in language the Sanye had far less of the West Eurasian element present among other Cushitic speaking populations of the Horn of Africa. Neither were their African ancestral components quite like that of the Nilotic or Bantu populations. The clustering algorithm was having a “hard time” making sense of them (it seemed to wanted to model them as linear combinations of more familiar groups, but was doing a bad job of it).

Here is an interesting article on these groups: Little known tribe that census forgot. Like the Sandawe this is a population which seems to have been hunter-gatherers very recently, and to some extent still engage in this lifestyle. In this way I think they are fundamentally different from Indian tribal populations, who are often held up to be the “first people” of the subcontinent. More and more it seems that the tribes of India are less the descendants of the original inhabitants of the subcontinent, at least when compared to the typical Indian peasant, and more simply those segments of the Indian population which were marginalized and pushed into less productive territory. Over time they naturally diverged culturally because of their isolation, but the difference was not primal. In contrast, groups like the Sanye and Sandawe may have mixed to a great extent with their neighbors (and lost their language like the Pygmies), but evidence of full featured hunting & gathering lifestyles implies a sort of direct cultural continuity with the landscape of eastern Africa before the arrival of farmers and pastoralists from the west and north.

* I understand some readers refuse to accept the likelihood of these results because of other lines of information. I am just relaying the results of the geneticists. I am not interested in re-litigating prior discussions on this. We’ll probably have a resolution soon enough.

January 16, 2012
The Fulani have an old “Berber” (?) element

fter the second Henn et al. paper I did download the data. Unfortunately there are only 62,000 SNPs intersecting with the HGDP. This is somewhat marginal for fine-grained ADMIXTURE analyses, though sufficient for PCA from what I recall. That being said, the intersection with the HapMap data sets runs from ~190,000 SNPs, to the full 250,000 SNPs (this makes sense since the Henn et al. #2 data set has some HapMap populations in it). So I’ve been experimenting a fair amount in the past few days, and I thought I would post on one issue which was clear in the original paper, but which I have replicated.

The Fulani (Fula) people of the western Sahel seem to have a relatively old West Eurasian component which has distinct affinities with the “Maghrebi” element discerned by Henn et al. In fact, the non-Sub-Saharan African ancestry of the Fulani is almost exclusively of this origin. To me this serves as a peculiar mirror of what you see in the Cushitic and Ethiopian Semitic peoples of the far east of the Sahel-Sudan latitudinal region. These populations also seem to be compounds of a Sub-Saharan Africa element with a West Eurasian one, but in their case the admixture is almost exclusively from a Southwest Eurasian (Arabian) component. Geographically these two symmetric admixture events make sense, but the exclusivity is still a bit surprising. Additionally, in both the case of the Fulani and the Ethiopian and Cushitic groups the admixture is widely distributed and even enough to imply that they are old events. I also assumed this because in some admixture runs a “pure” Fulani cluster partitions out, which is not unexpected for stabilized hybrid populations (all human populations are stabilized hybrids if you go back far enough).

To give you a flavor of what I’m talking about here are some screen shots of a run which is currently going. It has 180,000 markers. I removed Tunisians and many African populations from the Henn et al. data set, and included in the Utah whites from the HapMap. The individual plots show the ancestral proportions for each Fulani in the data set:


(see link for graphic)

So what can we see here? First, let’s reiterate something: as in the case of the populations of the Horn of Africa the West Eurasian element in the Fulani is difficult to find in “pure” form in the populations from which it putatively derived. What does that imply? I think that that means that the Fulani have an origin in relatively recent historic time, on the order of 2,000, not 10,000, years. That is because I am skeptical that the Fulani would be able to maintain genetic distinctiveness for ~10,000 years from other populations around them. In contrast, the last 2,000 years have seen the rise of various cultural institutions, from trans-Saharan nomadism to Islam, which might slow down admixture sufficiently to maintain the differences between the Fulani and their neighbors. It also implies to me that the non-Maghrebi “Near Eastern” element which Henn et al. discerned is relatively a recent phenomenon in northwest Africa, else the Fulani should also carry it. How recent? Probably from Classical Antiquity down to the Muslim period. Observe that many North Africa groups have a red “European” element. This may be from Near Eastern populations, but I suspect that the fraction here is just too high to be explained by that. Also, you can see above that some groups in Morocco have nearly as much of this as Egyptians, but far less of the more genuine Near Eastern components.

In all likelihood the West Eurasian component came to the Fulani via the Tuareg or a related or antecedent population. So if you typed the Tuareg you would probably get a better sense of the “pure” “Maghrebi” genetic profile. These genetic results also can serve as fodder to understanding the ethnogenesis of the landscape of the Sahel. In the map above it is interesting to observe that the Hausa speak an Afro-Asiatic language, even though their West Eurasian component is far lower than the Fulani, who speak Niger-Congo dialects. What gives? I suspect that the difference here is that the Hausa are a case of elite emulation of a cultural complex which was much more integrated and elaborated by the time it arrived on the West African scene. This explains how there could be language shift, while in the case of the Fulani there was none. Another hypothesis is that Afro-Asiatic derives from Sub-Saharan Africa itself, and the Chadic (Hausa) group are basal to the phylogeny. I’ll let readers explore the implications of that. A final aspect, I put the quotations in the title because perhaps the Berber dialects spread via elite emulation, and the original Maghrebi ancestors of the Fulani spoke a different language, which has been lost? As they say, for every answer there bloom a thousand questions….

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Yes, he might have gems on other topics, but I've never seen him say anything useful about Africans when it comes to common Eurocentric tropes. He always panders to his armchair anthro audience.

They all say non sense like this:

quote:
So what about the Sardinian admixture from Africans? The same dynamic might be at play here: old admixture from “Early European Farmers” into Africans might explain why they’re closer to Africans.
But what does that even mean? Llorente et al 2015's wild claims have been corrected by the authors and these pinheads are still gloating over "massive Eurasian ancestry" in Sub-Saharan Africa that "pulls southern Europeans to Africans". Where is this "massive farmer input" that they keep talking about?

Notice how he tries to emphasize that the farmer ancestry he's talking about is "old". That's often their excuse why they can't post anything official: the farmer ancestry deep inside Sub-Saharan Africa is supposedly "old" and somehow requires "special equipment" to detect.

This is simply pseudo science. This claim cannot be disproved because it's not falsifiable. It's deliberately not falsifiable. That's how they protect their worldview of not being a hybrid population. ANI is also partly Basal Eurasian so you can see how certain positions Razib takes are driven by denial.

You are missing the point of the thread topic quote by leaving the rest of it out

quote:


But

let’s assume that the Sardinian admixture from Africans is legitimate. What does that mean for estimates of ancestral derivation from continental populations than you see in the DTC personal genomics firms that report ancestry results? It can only mean that among people of Southern European ancestry a few percent of African ancestry is being “masked” because it is part of the reference population set. This came to my mind because a half Cuban friend of mine had ~2% African ancestry. Reasonable. When I checked by running unsupervised ADMIXTURE he had ~4%. Then I noticed that the Sardinian reference set was often in the 1-2% range. One explanation for the discrepancy then would be that a few percent of African ancestry in his genome was simply swallowed up by the reference population in the supervised learning framework.



quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

However, I am skeptical of the author as the name "Razid Khan" sounds familiar.

then you should have a critique of the conclusion here
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Swenet
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Nice try making Razib seem "reasonable" by nitpicking uncontroversial quotes.

I'm talking about the Euronut frenzy following the publication of Llorente et al and the fact that they exposed themselves by jumping on the 'newly discovered invasion of Africa' bandwagon that later turned out to be a mistake.

quote:
The extent of this backflow was much greater than previously reported, reaching all the way to Central, West and Southern Africa, affecting even populations such as Yoruba and Mbuti, previously thought to be relatively unadmixed, who harbor 6-7% Eurasian ancestry.
--Llorente et al 2015

^Any blogger who claims to have some sort of expertise should have read this with extreme skepticism. But instead of raising an eyebrow, many eagerly jumped on it.

This is what Razib sympathizes with when he suggests that southern European samples are different not because they have African ancestry, but because the entire African continent may have "hidden Eurasian admixture".

[Roll Eyes]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Nice try making Razib seem "reasonable" by nitpicking uncontroversial quotes.

I'm talking about the Euronut frenzy following the publication of Llorente et al and the fact that they exposed themselves by jumping on the 'newly discovered invasion of Africa' bandwagon that later turned out to be a mistake.

quote:
The extent of this backflow was much greater than previously reported, reaching all the way to Central, West and Southern Africa, affecting even populations such as Yoruba and Mbuti, previously thought to be relatively unadmixed, who harbor 6-7% Eurasian ancestry.
--Llorente et al 2015

^Any blogger who claims to have some sort of expertise should have read this with extreme skepticism. But instead of raising an eyebrow, many eagerly jumped on it.

This is what Razib sympathizes with when he suggests that southern European samples are different not because they have African ancestry, but because the entire African continent may have "hidden Eurasian admixture".

[Roll Eyes]

Deal with Llorente et al 2015 then, but the error correction has already been published

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26912899

Erratum for the Report "Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture in Eastern Africa" (previously titled "Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture throughout the African continent")


by M. Gallego Llorente, E. R. Jones, A. Eriksson, V. Siska, K. W. Arthur, J. W. Arthur, M. C. Curtis, J. T. Stock, M. Coltorti, P. Pieruccini, S. Stretton, F. Brock, T. Higham, Y. Park, M. Hofreiter, D. G. Bradley, J. Bhak, R. Pinhasi, A. Manica.

]
Abstract
In the Report “Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture in Eastern Africa,” the results were affected by a bioinformatics error. A script necessary to convert the input produced by samtools v0.1.19 to be compatible with PLINK was not run when merging the ancient genome, Mota, with the contemporary populations SNP panel, leading to homozygote positions to the human reference genome being dropped as missing data (the analysis of admixture with Neandertals and Denisovans was not affected). When those positions were included, 255,922 SNP out of 256,540 from the contemporary reference panel could be called in Mota. These changes are reflected in the corrected Fig. 2B, fig. S6, and table S5. Tables S6 and S7 have been removed from the corrected Supplementary Material, because there is no detectable Western Eurasian component in Yoruba and Mbuti. The conclusion of a migration into East Africa from Western Eurasia, and more precisely from a source genetically close to the early Neolithic farmers, is not affected. However, the geographic extent of the genetic impact of this migration was overestimated: The Western Eurasian backflow mostly affected East Africa and only a few Sub-Saharan populations; the Yoruba and Mbuti do not show higher levels of Western Eurasian ancestry compared to Mota. Hence, the title and abstract of the published paper did not accurately represent the geographical extent of the admixture, and both have been corrected accordingly. The authors acknowledge Pontus Skoglund and David Reich for detecting these problems.
Erratum for
Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture throughout the African continent. [Science. 2015]

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Swenet
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You tried to come to Razib's rescue with those irrelevant quotes, and failed. Now you're suggesting I should take it up with Llorente instead of Razib. Take off the superhero cape. Razib is perfectly capable of defending himself.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
You tried to come to Razib's rescue with those irrelevant quotes, and failed. Now you're suggesting I should take it up with Llorente instead of Razib. Take off the superhero cape. Razib is perfectly capable of defending himself.

I did a search on Razib Khan and Africa and these where the first things that came up. I didn't do any selecting-rejecting. I just posted it.
I didn't know what you reaction would be. I didn't know if these would be and example of what you criticize him for or not.

The implications of the Mota discovery has been updated and corrected. The source of the article is Llorente et al

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I've also had interactions with Razib that didn't go that well, as his strong eurocentric bias was on full display. I know he's also a huge fan of the book Albion's Seed and seems to be pro-Europe through and through.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0195069056/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482708208&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=Albions+seed&dpPl=1&dpID=514GS4F6hiL&ref=plSrch

He had gotten some backlash from some of the Neo-Nazis who follow him after having a mixed race baby which was too ironic

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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
[QB] I've also had interactions with Razib that didn't go that well,

do you have the quotes?
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xyyman
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What is a "mixed race baby"? Also why would a Nazi have a problem with an Paki-Indian having a "mixed race" baby? Am I missing something?

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Erratum for the Report "Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture in Eastern Africa" (previously titled "Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture throughout the African continent")

...
Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture throughout the African continent. [Science. 2015]

You are a funny individual.

Neanderthal component D statistics.



quote:
Fig. S8. Phylogeny used in f4 ratio analysis. Phylogeny composed of three populations A, B, and C, and an outgroup O all descending from the same ancestor R. An additional population, X, is a mixture of B and C.

[...]

Table S4. Mutations defining the E1b1 haplogroup of Mota. Mutations are reported with respect to the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence. Mutations found in our sample, which are present in the reported haplogroup are shown here unless marked in bold or underlined. Underlined mutations are those present in our samples but not associated with the haplogroup determined. Bold mutations are those expected for the assigned haplogroup but absent from the sample.

[...]

Previous page: Table. S5. The proportion of West Eurasian ancestry for all African populations in our global panel. λYoruba,Druze gives estimates using Yoruba as the non-admixed reference and Druze as the source, λMota,Druze using Mota as the non-admixed reference and Druze as the source, and λMota,LBK using Mota as the non-admixed reference and LBK as a source. SE are the standard errors for these quantities.

[...]

Table S6. D statistics determining the possible source of West Eurasian ancestry in Yoruba. D(Yoruba, Mota; X, Han); where X is a range of European populations that represent possible sources of gene flow.

[...]

Table S7. D statistics determining the possible source of West Eurasian ancestry in Mbuti. D(Mbuti, Mota; X, Han); where X is a range of European populations that represent possible sources of gene flow.

[...]

Table S8. Neanderthal component D statistics. D(AltaiNea, CAnc; Mota, X), where AltaiNea is the Altai Neanderthal, MezNea is the Mezmaiskaya Neanderthal, CAnc is the reconstructed human-chimpanzee common ancestor, Mota is the reference and X is the tested genome.

[...]

Table S9. Neanderthal component based on f4 ratio. f4 (AltaiNea, Denisovan; X, Mota) / f4 (AltaiNea, Denisovan; X, MezNea), where Mota is the unadmixed reference and X is the tested population.

[...]

Table S10. Denisovan component D statistics. DYoruba, D(Denisovan, CAnc; Yoruba, X), where Yoruba is the reference and X is the tested genome, and DMota, D(Denisovan, CAnc; Mota, X), where CAnc is the reconstructed human-chimpanzee common ancestor, Mota is the reference and X is the tested genome.

quote:

Table S8. Neanderthal component D statistics. D(AltaiNea, CAnc; Mota, X), where AltaiNea is the Altai Neanderthal, MezNea is the Mezmaiskaya Neanderthal, CAnc is the reconstructed human-chimpanzee common ancestor, Mota is the reference and X is the tested genome.


The absence of a West Eurasian component in Mota supports the dating of the backflow into Africa, which, at ~3.5kya, is younger than our ancient genome (dated to 4.5 cya).

Given that Mota predates the backflow, it potentially provides a better unadmixed African reference than contemporary Yoruba. Thus, we recomputed the extent of the West Eurasian component in contemporary African populations using Mota, λMota,Druze, instead of Yoruba in our f4 ratio. By using this better reference, we estimated West Eurasian admixture to be significantly larger than previously estimated, with an additional 6-9% of the genome of contemporary African populations being of Eurasian origin (Fig. S6, and Table S5). Importantly, this analysis shows that the West Eurasian component can be found also in West Africa (Fig. S6), albeit at lower levels 13 than in Eastern Africa. Importantly, a sizeable West Eurasian component is also found in the Yoruba and Mbuti, which are often used a representative of an unadmixed African population.

--M. Gallego Llorente

Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture throughout the African continent


Remarkable, isn't it? And to know that he Neanderthals originated in Africa is even more diluting or is it mind-blowing?

quote:
Like humans, Neanderthals originated in Africa but migrated to Eurasia long before humans did
http://www.livescience.com/28036-neanderthals-facts-about-our-extinct-human-relatives.html


quote:

Their origin likely relates to an episode of recolonization of Western Eurasia by hominins of African origin carrying the Acheulean technology into Europe around 600 ka.

--J. J. Hublin

The origin of Neandertals

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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I've also had interactions with Razib that didn't go that well, as his strong eurocentric bias was on full display. I know he's also a huge fan of the book Albion's Seed and seems to be pro-Europe through and through.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0195069056/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482708208&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=Albions+seed&dpPl=1&dpID=514GS4F6hiL&ref=plSrch

He had gotten some backlash from some of the Neo-Nazis who follow him after having a mixed race baby which was too ironic

Wow, great information.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
What is a "mixed race baby"? Also why would a Nazi have a problem with an Paki-Indian having a "mixed race" baby? Am I missing something?

You are missing the social concept of the true "aryan". [Big Grin]
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Secretly, Razib is right up there with Tila Tequila in that there seems to be a susceptibility to white supremacy in a small but noticeable section of some Asian communities.

 -

Tila Tequila’s Descent Into Nazism Is A Long Time Coming
https://www.buzzfeed.com/kateaurthur/tila-tequilas-descent-into-nazism-is-a-long-time-coming?utm_term=.vnAqJzE1Y#.umEnENLke

Not that we in the don't have our Uncle Toms in our communities.

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But Tila Tequila brings diversity to the movement
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Big up to the Bruce Lees, Constance Wus and other Asian celebs who don't play that cozying up bs.
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Hmm, I did not even recognize Tila Tequila, before and I think nobody did. She will do anything get fame. smh

She probably did not understand that Vietnamese aren't part of the alt-right deal.


But is the Razib sarcasm, I don't see him.

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His name is Razib Khan and YES the guy has issues when it comes to African genetics. I've actually gotten into a few debates with him concerning population genetics in Southeast Asia. While I wouldn't call the guy a "nazi" or white supremacist (as he is obviously not white), he is still very much Eurasiocentric to the point where he misinterprets the vast genetic diversity found in African populations the same way Euronuts do. In fact, I think Swenet is correct about his ignorance on the topic of African population genetics. I myself don't know half as much as you guys on the topic but I bet even I know way more than him! The guy is nothing more than an 'armchair expert'. While he provides good insights to Eurasian population genetics (though not perfect and error-free) he doesn't know squat about African population genetics as a whole and just parrots what the Euronuts say in general.
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both sides of the mouth in a few sentences...SMH. BTW we are al "arm-chair" experts

"I myself don't know half as much as you guys on the topic but I bet even I know way more than him! The guy is nothing more than an 'armchair expert'. While he provides good insights to Eurasian population genetics (though not perfect and error-free) he doesn't know squat about African population genetics as a whole and just parrots what the Euronuts say in general. "

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You are a funny dude......

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
But Tila Tequila brings diversity to the movement


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@DJ

As far as white supremacy, you're right it'd seem out of place to lump him with them. But he does seem to be susceptible to white supremacy and ideas common to it.

Read why he was supposedly hired and fired the same day by NY times.

Razib Khan Hired and Fired By the New York Times, Both On the Same Day!
http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/razib-khan-hired-and-fired-by-the-new-york-times-both-on-the-same-day/

Note the bias of the author (who seems to be in the same camp) and the same old "oh but he's very objective, just a race realist" routine. When the 'objective' or 'honest' label is applied to people with a dubious track record (e.g. Trump and other far-right characters), it's usually just window dressing for people who are extremely biased, but selectively honest.

[Roll Eyes]

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
But Tila Tequila brings diversity to the movement

Dude, are you suggesting that Tila is infiltrating?
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Lioness it was on several of his older blog posts on gene expression , I'll try and track them down later for you

@xyyman as Ish pointed out its due to him having a baby with a white woman. A lot of neo-nazis like his blogs for their "race realism", but they sure as hell didn't want him intermingling with "their" race no matter how much he tries to pump up Europeans

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I remember Razib used to post on a blog titled "Gene Expession" back in the early 2000's. I don't know if he was one of them, but that blog had a lot of pseudoscientific Rushton-style "HBD" types posting there. It wouldn't surprise me if some of their views rubbed off onto his. He wouldn't necessarily have to think Europeans are the superior race like a white supremacist though. Looking down on African people and their culture would be enough.

--------------------
Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher

My art thread on ES

And my books thread

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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Lioness it was on several of his older blog posts on gene expression , I'll try and track them down later for you

@xyyman as Ish pointed out its due to him having a baby with a white woman. A lot of neo-nazis like his blogs for their "race realism", but they sure as hell didn't want him intermingling with "their" race no matter how much he tries to pump up Europeans

That' wasn't me, but Swenet.

But if you refer to the "aryan" theory, then yeah.

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
His name is Razib Khan and YES the guy has issues when it comes to African genetics. I've actually gotten into a few debates with him concerning population genetics in Southeast Asia.

Out of curiosity, where did you argue with this guy, and what were you debating on that topic?
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BTW. Who is Tila Tequila? Is this a demographic thing? you know, 20something vs "gramps" 30something. lol! Never heard of her.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
You are a funny dude......

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
But Tila Tequila brings diversity to the movement



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@Puno-Reys

I guess that was a rude awakening for him. Playing both sides. What do you think DJ?


"@xyyman as Ish pointed out its due to him having a baby with a white woman. A lot of neo-nazis like his blogs for their "race realism", but they sure as hell didn't want him intermingling with "their" race no matter how much he tries to pump up Europeans"

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[qb] BTW. Who is Tila Tequila? Is this a demographic thing? you know, 20something vs "gramps" 30something. lol! Never heard of her.

I know about her because I'm always 'one foot' in pop culture to understand trends and where the world is going.

Because of her popularity on social media a decade ago, they gave her a dating show on MTV. Funny thing is, she dated Afram men, was into rap and she said she traveled to LA as a teenager in the hopes of meeting Tupac (supposedly, this was in the mid 90s). She flip flopped from that to nazism. Was she susceptible to those ideas all along?

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xyyman
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Oh! She is a Kadarshian(sp). Got you! (fist thump)

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
both sides of the mouth in a few sentences...SMH. BTW we are al "arm-chair" experts

"I myself don't know half as much as you guys on the topic but I bet even I know way more than him! The guy is nothing more than an 'armchair expert'. While he provides good insights to Eurasian population genetics (though not perfect and error-free) he doesn't know squat about African population genetics as a whole and just parrots what the Euronuts say in general. "

I don't know how any of what I wrote is contradictory or "both sides of my mouth". By the way, when I said "you guys" knowing more about African population genetics, you know I didn't include YOU! LOL Your misinterpretations of studies are just as bad if not worse than Razib. Nobody in this forum takes you seriously, I hope you know that. Also, when it comes to 'armchair experts', speak for yourself. I never consider myself an expert in anything other than what I have credentials in, so GTFOH [Embarrassed]
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What are one about? Do you think I care about what people think of me? I am not the sensitive type. I have never met anyone here personally and as far as I know the owners of this site could be taking on all these different avatars and posting. This is a hobby to me. I have a life.

But I repeat...stopping speaking from both sides of your mouth.


In case you haven't noticed I am not into "follow the crowd".I got enough hits on ESR ..so...my big ego is stroked there. [Big Grin]

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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

@DJ

As far as white supremacy, you're right it'd seem out of place to lump him with them. But he does seem to be susceptible to white supremacy and ideas common to it.

Read why he was supposedly hired and fired the same day by NY times.

Razib Khan Hired and Fired By the New York Times, Both On the Same Day!
http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/razib-khan-hired-and-fired-by-the-new-york-times-both-on-the-same-day/

Note the bias of the author (who seems to be in the same camp) and the same old "oh but he's very objective, just a race realist" routine. When the 'objective' or 'honest' label is applied to people with a dubious track record (e.g. Trump and other far-right characters), it's usually just window dressing for people who are extremely biased, but selectively honest.

[Roll Eyes]

Well firstly, Razib Khan is Indian in ethnicity. I hate to generalize or stereotype but from both personal experience as well as hearsay from others Indians do tend to have racist views both against their darker-skinned breathren as well as Africans. So any biased let alone negative views he may have against people of African descent would not at all surprise me.

Second of all, don't tell me you're one of those of those people fooled into thinking Trump is a "far right-winger". Trump is not even a right-winger at all. The guy is a New York Democrat who brilliantly subverted and took over the Grimy Old Party. A lot of the so-called 'right wing' rhetoric attributed to Trump is either exaggerated or totally fictional.

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One of the few times you did NOT speak from both sides of the mouth.

But Trump is into "payback" and revenge. That is the thing that should concern us. He also has low ethical values and morals. he is still at High School level of thinking.

seconded:
"Trump is not even a right-winger at all. The guy is a New York Democrat who brilliantly subverted and took over the Grimy Old Party. A lot of the so-called 'right wing' rhetoric attributed to Trump is either exaggerated or totally fictional."

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:

I remember Razib used to post on a blog titled "Gene Expession" back in the early 2000's. I don't know if he was one of them, but that blog had a lot of pseudoscientific Rushton-style "HBD" types posting there. It wouldn't surprise me if some of their views rubbed off onto his. He wouldn't necessarily have to think Europeans are the superior race like a white supremacist though. Looking down on African people and their culture would be enough.

Yes, "Gene Expression" is also where I first came across his work. As far as his views, again look at my previous post as it concerns 'Desis'.
quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
His name is Razib Khan and YES the guy has issues when it comes to African genetics. I've actually gotten into a few debates with him concerning population genetics in Southeast Asia.

Out of curiosity, where did you argue with this guy, and what were you debating on that topic?
It was some years ago in one of the Asian history and culture forums (I forgot which one). The debate was who colonized the East Indies first-- Austroasiatic speakers or Austronesian speakers. His argument was the former based solely on genetics even though the linguistics doesn't add up. He obviously makes the mistake of making a strict correlation between population and language. He also does not take into account any loss of linguistic diversity in Southeast Asia much less population diversity. He doesn't even know that there were Neolithic civilizations in Southeast Asia created by pre-modern (pre-mongloid) i.e. aboriginal populations who show affinities to aboriginal populations of eastern India. This is why I say not all of his assessments on Eurasian population genetics is on point.
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@DJ

I know Trump has voted for Democrats in the past. But in America's rigid two-party system I would expect some right-wing people to blend in with democrats.

But can you point out actions, beliefs, etc. that show Trump leans to the left? I'm not talking about a few isolated actions, but a consistent pattern in behavior.

xyyman feel free to join in.

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Second of all, don't tell me you're one of those of those people fooled into thinking Trump is a "far right-winger". Trump is not even a right-winger at all. The guy is a New York Democrat who brilliantly subverted and took over the Grimy Old Party. A lot of the so-called 'right wing' rhetoric attributed to Trump is either exaggerated or totally fictional.

So you knowingly helped get a insincere troll elected to the highest office in the USA. Do you honestly think this makes him (or you) look any better? I appreciate what you have to say on history and genetics, but I have lost quite a bit of respect for you here.
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http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420093/presidential-candidate-donald-trump-double-agent-for-left

"Registered democratic from 2001 -2009!! At the beginning of the Obama Presidency!!??

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This does not help you xyyman. Look at why he said he supported Democrats. You really think any of this makes him left wing?

In your view, he's just a eccentric version of Obama or Bernie Sanders? Stop it.

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xyyman
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Of course he needs to explain himself..... now. judge a man by his actions not what he says.

9 years PRETENDING to be a Democrat. Really?

THE MAN IS A WHORE!!! Str8 up! He has no principles or value he lives by. Not saying many of the politicians aren't. But he a "businessman" and a politician. Enough said.


I have a 100 day poll running on ESR. He is not going to do 25% of what he said he would do. Wager?! The alarming thing is how people were suckered into believing his BS. Goes to show how dumb people are on both the right and left.

I call it social engineering and Reality TV is the testing ground. lol!


The man is a whore who makes it a habit of marry them....why would a woman marry a man 30years her senior....answer=MONEY!!!!

you think it is love? ask Sterling/Steviano. Have you ever seen a white person naked past 60years old. It is not a pretty sight. lol!


Good thing is she doesn't need to "get it hard". She only needs to lay there and act like ti is good and collect the check after. lol!

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
.... Look at why ****he said *****he supported Democrats.


In your view, he's just a eccentric version of Obama or Bernie Sanders? Stop it.


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quote:
But though Democrats are certainly the more left-wing of the two parties — the party of labor unions and environment groups and feminist organizations and the civil rights movement — they're not an ideologically left-wing party in the same way that Republicans are an ideological conservative one. Instead, they behave more like a centrist, interest group brokerage party that seeks to mediate between the claims and concerns of left-wing activists groups and those of important members of the business community — especially industries like finance, Hollywood, and tech that are based in liberal coastal states and whose executives generally espouse a progressive outlook on cultural change.
Source

Come back to the real world, gramps. Voting Democrat doesn't mean you're left wing. Still waiting for a detailed breakdown showing that Trump is left wing in his actions and beliefs.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

@DJ

I know Trump has voted for Democrats in the past. But in America's rigid two-party system I would expect some right-wing people to blend in with democrats.

But can you point out actions, beliefs, etc. that show Trump leans to the left? I'm not talking about a few isolated actions, but a consistent pattern in behavior.

xyyman feel free to join in.

LOL Donald Trump didn't just "vote" for Democrats in the past, he donated large sums of money to the DNC and supported Democrat candidates including the Clintons. As for the whole 'right-wing' vs. 'lef-wing' that depends on what you mean by those terms as I find them to be rather subjective.
quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:

So you knowingly helped get a insincere troll elected to the highest office in the USA. Do you honestly think this makes him (or you) look any better? I appreciate what you have to say on history and genetics, but I have lost quite a bit of respect for you here.

And what makes you think I voted for him?? I stayed out of the ballad box this past elections as I've done the previous time, though if I was somehow forced to vote then yes I would choose Trump as he is the lesser of the evils. Yes, my biggest fear was that he was being insincere but I am convinced that he really wants to help the country, but other than that he is a jerk and a-hole. I'd rather have him hold highest office than a dishones criminal who prostitutes herself to foreign governments and regimes.
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BrandonP
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quote:
And what makes you think I voted for him?? I stayed out of the ballad box this past elections as I've done the previous time, though if I was somehow forced to vote then yes I would choose Trump as he is the lesser of the evils. Yes, my biggest fear was that he was being insincere but I am convinced that he really wants to help the country, but other than that he is a jerk and a-hole. I'd rather have him hold highest office than a dishones criminal who prostitutes herself to foreign governments and regimes.
My bad, I thought I saw you (under a different username) post elsewhere that you were voting for him. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Swenet
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EDIT
..I guess he doesn't mind then..

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:

My bad, I thought I saw you (under the username "Lordinit") post elsewhere that you were voting for him. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I'm no Trump supporter but yeah I was very tempted on several occasions to vote for him and threatened to do so on social media only because I got really annoyed by the Hillary followers and especially those who continue to tell blatant lies and demonize him while ignoring all of Hillary's sh*t. Of course such an action of voting based on emotional whims would only violate my own principles, plus it didn't help that my own parents truly were Trump supporters!

Not to mention in case his presidency goes to hell, I don't want to be one of those helf responsible. LOL [Big Grin]

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