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the lioness,
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International Journal of Modern AnthropologyJournal Home > Vol 1, No 8 (2015) >


Origin of Ancient Canary Islanders Guanches: presence of Atlantic/Iberian HLA and Y chromosome genes and Ancient Iberian language
Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, E


Abstract

First CanaryIslands(Spain) Inhabitants (“Guanches”) origin has been much debated. Lately, it has come popular the simplistic theory that they came from North Africa. In the present paper, we conclude that not only North Africans but also Iberian/Atlantic Europeans (and possibly others) must have been first Canarians. Debate whether North Africans or Iberians were the first “Guanches” is artificial since Iberian Peninsula-North African genes flow in ancient times was abundant and Iberians share a great part of genetic profile with North Africans. New genetic (HLA) and linguistic data shown in the present paper, is supported by diverse early anthropological and “Guanches” mummies characters which confirm existence of at least two “Guanches” types and a correct interpretation of R1b Y chromosome high frequency in Atlantic Europe (Ireland, British Isles, North Spain,Basque Coast and Portugal), and also, is present in Canary Islands (13.3%). Present paper HLA genes partial data and presence of abundant old Iberian language scripts (which show an easy translation proposal by using Basque) in Fuerteventura and also in Lanzarote and El Hierro Islands suggest that a present day dogma of a hypothetically North African single origin should be changed. Both Atlantic/Europeans and North Africans define origin of Canary Islands first inhabitants.


LINK

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Ish Geber
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Odd,

Demographic history of Canary Islands male gene-pool: replacement of native lineages by European

Abstract

Background
The origin and prevalence of the prehispanic settlers of the Canary Islands has attracted great multidisciplinary interest. However, direct ancient DNA genetic studies on indigenous and historical 17th–18th century remains, using mitochondrial DNA as a female marker, have only recently been possible. In the present work, the analysis of Y-chromosome polymorphisms in the same samples, has shed light on the way the European colonization affected male and female Canary Island indigenous genetic pools, from the conquest to present-day times.

Results
Autochthonous (E-M81) and prominent (E-M78 and J-M267) Berber Y-chromosome lineages were detected in the indigenous remains, confirming a North West African origin for their ancestors which confirms previous mitochondrial DNA results. However, in contrast with their female lineages, which have survived in the present-day population since the conquest with only a moderate decline, the male indigenous lineages have dropped constantly being substituted by European lineages. Male and female sub-Saharan African genetic inputs were also detected in the Canary population, but their frequencies were higher during the 17th–18th centuries than today.

Conclusion
The European colonization of the Canary Islands introduced a strong sex-biased change in the indigenous population in such a way that indigenous female lineages survived in the extant population in a significantly higher proportion than their male counterparts.


Y-SNP haplogroups in indigenous and historical Canary Island populations are shown in Table 1. The autochthonous N African E-M81 haplogroup was the most abundant type in the indigenous sample (26.7%). It is also the most common in NW Africa (64%) with its highest frequency in the Western Sahara (76%) [17, 34]. The E-M81 marker is rare outside N Africa and its presence in the Iberian Peninsula has mainly been considered a result of Moorish influence [5, 17]. In the historical sample, the E-M81 frequency was 11.9%, more similar to that found in the current Canary Islands (8.3%) than to the indigenous sample (26.7%). Taking into account the low frequency of this haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa, its presence in the historical sample could be better explained by indigenous persistence than by later trade in sub-Saharan slaves. However, it is also to be expected that some E-M81 lineages reached the islands due to the minor NW African slave-trade. The notable E-M81 frequency decrease in the historical sample, relative to the indigenous one, is in agreement with a strong European replacement of the indigenous males at the beginning of the conquest [5].

[...]

Y-SNP selection

Sixteen biallelic markers (M2, M9, M33, M34, M45, M60, M78, M81, M89, M96, M170, M172, M173, M201, M267, M269; see Figure 2), that characterize the most prevalent lineages in NW Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa and Europe, were chosen from the literature [5, 17, 34, 35, 36, 38, 40]. The Y-SNP haplogroup nomenclature and tree topology, represented in Figure 2, were established following the nomenclature of Karafet et al. 2008 [64].


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http://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-9-181

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xyyman
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This is expected. It is a continuum. This is no sharp dividing line between Europe and Africa. There was never any isolation and there was no "back-migration". It is a smooth transition from Africa to Europe. The Only dilemma is why the switch is male dominance from YDNA G and E to R1b. R1b is in extremely low or non-existent up to the late Neolithic is Europe. I would not be surprised when they find R1b in ancient North West Africa and even in ancient Tunisia.


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

International Journal of Modern AnthropologyJournal Home > Vol 1, No 8 (2015) >


Origin of Ancient Canary Islanders Guanches: presence of Atlantic/Iberian HLA and Y chromosome genes and Ancient Iberian language
Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, E


Abstract

First CanaryIslands(Spain) Inhabitants (“Guanches”) origin has been much debated. Lately, it has come popular the simplistic theory that they came from North Africa. In the present paper, we conclude that not only North Africans but also Iberian/Atlantic Europeans (and possibly others) must have been first Canarians. Debate whether North Africans or Iberians were the first “Guanches” is artificial since Iberian Peninsula-North African genes flow in ancient times was abundant and Iberians share a great part of genetic profile with North Africans. New genetic (HLA) and linguistic data shown in the present paper, is supported by diverse early anthropological and “Guanches” mummies characters which confirm existence of at least two “Guanches” types and a correct interpretation of R1b Y chromosome high frequency in Atlantic Europe (Ireland, British Isles, North Spain,Basque Coast and Portugal), and also, is present in Canary Islands (13.3%). Present paper HLA genes partial data and presence of abundant old Iberian language scripts (which show an easy translation proposal by using Basque) in Fuerteventura and also in Lanzarote and El Hierro Islands suggest that a present day dogma of a hypothetically North African single origin should be changed. Both Atlantic/Europeans and North Africans define origin of Canary Islands first inhabitants.


LINK


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xyyman
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I told you so.....R1b M269 can be considered having an African origin. There is no such thing as "European" genes or invasion from the Steppes of Asia. Modern Europeans are depigmented Africans

----
Quotes:
In 2009, ancient “Guanches” samples were genetically analyzed from Tenerife, La Gomera, El Hierro and Gran Canaria Islands and historical pre-Spanish Conquest remains from all Islands except from Lanzarote (Fregel et al., 2009). Authors conclude that there was a higher frequency of male genetic “North African” markers and a lower frequency of male genetic “European markers”. Authors again conclude that this (R1b1b2, M269) marker and frequency in ancient “Guanches” shows that a “Guanche” (mostly North African) male substitution was achieved because of Spanish conquest. However, they do not take with account that this marker is high in western Atlantic Europeans particularly in the British Isles, Portugal, French Britain and Northern Spain (for a review see [Oppenheimer, 2007]). Thus, the “North African” origin of this Y chromosome marker should be considered Atlantic (Europe and British Isles)****** including “North Africa” ******and Canary Islands

Origin of First Canary Islands Inhabitants according to HLA genetics.
Our present day Tenerife Islanders population HLA studies show that an admixture of European (mainly Atlantic) and North African population is found (Table 2, and Table 3; Fig. 4 and Fig. 5). These findings may not reflect the First Canary Islands Inhabitants genetic features. This is because only Tenerife Island is analyzed and also because different Canary Islands invasions, particularly Spanish conquest in XV century AD, may have altered the initial population genetic composition.

However, autosomal HLA characters common to Iberian and Berbers are formed (Arnaiz-Villena et al., 1997) and conjoint autosomal, mtDNA and Y chromosome markers study revealed a gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar; it was ongoing ****in high rates ****since pre-Neolithic times (Currat et al., 2010).

This makes difficult a distinction between Iberian and North West Africans on the bases of both autosomal and sex chromosomes markers. Thus, genetic discussion about whether Iberians or North African Berbers where the First Canary Inhabitants is artificial, when only genetic markers are considered. In fact, the bias towards high frequencies of European Y chromosomes and mtDNA African markers in present day Canary Islanders have been interpreted a “Guanche” male substitution by Normand and Spanish XIV-XV century conquerors (Maca-Meyer et al., 2004, Maca-Meyer et al., 2003b).

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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If I a had a $ dollar...#8?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Modern Europeans and their delusions.
Here they acknowledge R1b-M269 may have an African origin but in the same breath are making absurd or irrational statements or correlation. The script is Iberian in origin but it can be found in Southern France, Western Africa and Canary Africa ...and Sardinia. Sardinia is "politically" European but geographically African. And it is over 1000mile away from Iberia. Doesn't it make more sense that the Sahara Africa was the source of these "Iberian" scripts. Sahara Africa is a few miles from BOTH Sardinia and Iberia and Canary Islands. BUT!!!, Modern Europeans! They just can't help themselves. They MUST project themselves into the past greatest of other peoples.


Quote:
Iberian characters were used since about 800 years BC until 300 years AD, throughout Iberia, Southern France and Sardinia (Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia, 2000a; Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-García, 1998; Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-García, 2007). The possibility that is Iberian scripts were used by stable Canary Islands population in antiquity is feasible. However, it is more likely that Iberian scripters were temporarily based for fishing according to tuna fish life cycle and they came from Iberian Peninsula (Fig.1); this is widely discussed in (Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia, 2000a


Hypothesis of African origin of Iberian scripts cannot be discarded but it is seems quite unlikely. However, Iberian inscriptions are usually mixed with Lybic-berber ones in Fuerteventura. Moreover, there is no archaeological site in Fuerteventura where Iberian inscriptions exist and Lybic ones are not also present (Pichler, 2010); it seems that sometimes both writing types have beenadmixed by the same person(s) (Pichler, 2010). Thus, Iberian scripts would seem to represent the same language than Lybic and/or “Guanche” language

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xyyman
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Give you your props Lioness. This paper supports my point of view that Europeans are depigmented Africans AND R1b-M269 is of African origin.

I believe cro-magnon is ALSO found in Africa? The author acknowledges Europeans are lying and hiding information ...to what end. They use the word ...."HIDE"!!!!!!! wow!

-----
Quotes:
There is a consensus about Canary Island ancientanthropological data: two types of individuals may be found according to most ancients historical descriptions and two types of “Guanche” mummies study (González, 1992; Braem, 2010, Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia, 2000a; Verneau, 1887; Hooton, 1916). One type shows thick built bones and bodies, like Cro-Magnon individuals from Atlantic/European side, Portugal, North Spain, French Britain and Britain Isles; and the second type is more Mediterranean showing a lighter body and cranial built; this last type may be from North Africa/Mediterranean/****Western-Sahara****. These anthropological two Canary Islanders ancient types are concordant with most genetic findings presented by us and other in this paper. R1b Y chromosome European Atlantic variant is very frequent in Atlantic Europe: Ireland, Great Britain, French Britain, Atlantic Spain and Portugal (Oppenheimer, 2007; www.eupedia.com/Europe/HAPLOGROUP_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml). This marker apparently originated in Iberia but there is a very high frequency in a semi-isolated Sub-Saharan area, particularly in North Nigeria and Cameroun (www.eupedia.com/Europe/HAPLOGROUP_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml). This may suggest that origin there R1b marker origin might have been the once very populated Sahara desert (Arnaiz-Villena et al., 2002; Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia, 2000a; Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-García, 1998). However, this genetic marker went from Iberia northwards after Last Ice Age retreat (Oppenheimer, 2007; www.eupedia.com/Europe/HAPLOGROUP_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml).R1b marker could have also been established in Canary Islands in ancient times; about 13.3% of Canary aboriginal samples beared R1b2 and P(xR1a and R1b1b2) (Fregel et al., 2009; www.eupedia.com/Europe/HAPLOGROUP_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml). Finally, the closest pyramids found in North Africa are in Egypt, similar to Canarian ones are***** far from the Islands****. They were discovered in Tenerife Island by Thor Heyerdhal; it is not discarded that other pyramids may have existed in a pre-postglaciation Sahara desert (Arnaiz-Villena et al., 2002; Braem, 2010).
In conclusion, cultural (pyramids), linguistic (Iberian and Lybic inscriptions), old anthropological data (both Atlantic/European and more gracile North African co-extant types), ancient genetic and modern genetic data strongly suggest that both Atlantic Europeans and Africans were Canary Islands First Inhabitants. Either aiming to pushing an *******exclusive African or an exclusive European *******“Guanche” origin lack of scientific bases. Also, continuing to hide presence of Iberian scripts in Canary Islands is also destroying Canary Islands and World culture and heritage.

REPEAT
Also, continuing to ******hide******* presence of Iberian scripts in Canary Islands is also destroying Canary Islands and World culture and heritage.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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I think I can safely conclude without sounding crazy that R1b-M269 is of African origin ...like everything else.

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Give you your props Lioness. This paper supports my point of view that Europeans are depigmented Africans AND R1b-M269 is of African origin.


How come most Europeans don't have afros?
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xyyman
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Agent provocateur or the village idiot?

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Give you your props Lioness. This paper supports my point of view that Europeans are depigmented Africans AND R1b-M269 is of African origin.


How come most Europeans don't have afros?

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the lioness,
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xyyman, just answer the question
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Give you your props Lioness. This paper supports my point of view that Europeans are depigmented Africans AND R1b-M269 is of African origin.


How come most Europeans don't have afros?
lol
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xyyman
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From another post
------
Quote:
The Kurgan hypothesis is dead
Posted on February 11, 2015 by Genetiker
David Reich and his associates have published a paper containing a lot of new genetic data from prehistoric Europe. These data utterly refute the Kurgan hypothesis, and yet Reich and his associates are so stupid that they actually think the data support the hypothesis.

Marija Gimbutas’s Kurgan hypothesis claimed that the people of the Yamna culture spoke a language ancestral to all Indo-European languages around 3500 BC, and that the people of this culture then spread their language west through Europe and east into Asia over the next 3,000 years. The following maps from the Wikipedia article on Indo-European migrations illustrate how this was supposed to have happened.

But we now know that this is totally wrong. The new data show that of seven Yamna males, one belonged to Y haplogroup R1b1a-P297, one belonged to R1b1a2a-L23, and five belonged to R1b1a2a2-Z2103. None of them belonged to R1a, and it was R1a people who spoke a language ancestral to the satem Indo-European languages, which include the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages. None of them belonged to R1b1a2a1-L51, and it was R1b-L51 people who spoke a language ancestral to the Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages. So we know that four huge branches of the Indo-European language family were *****not**** derived from the people of the Yamna culture.

The idea that the R1b1a2a1-L51 speakers of Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages could have been derived from the R1b1a2a-L23 minority among the Yamna people doesn’t work, because of the timing of the splits in the R1b tree. R1b1a2a2-Z2103 split from its brother clade R1b1a2a1-L51 8,000 years ago, which is around 3,000 years before the time of the Yamna samples. While the TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) for R1b-Z2103 is 7,400–5,600 years, the TMRCA for R1b-L51 is 7,600–5,900 years, so R1b-L51 is older than R1b-Z2103. R1b-L51 existed at the same time that the eastern R1b-Z2103 existed, in some other part of Europe. And of course that other part of Europe was Western Europe. There’s no doubt that R1b-L51 originated in Western Europe, because the highest frequencies of the R1b-L51* paragroup are found in France and Ireland.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

So...I never thought about this. But R1b - L51 is OLDER than R1b-2103!!!. Significance. The Yamanyas are YOUNGER than Western Europeans males. There goes the Steppe hypothesis....lol!

But you know what. Let them continue their fantasy about a male ONLY migration from the Steppes of Asia. Lol!!!!

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Clyde Winters
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Great post xyyman. As I made clear back in 2014 , y-chromosome R1, is of African origin.
.
 -
.

Don't forget that Cro-Magnon man, the first European also carried R1.

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C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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 -


.
R1 originated in Africa and spread into Eurasia. As a result haplogroup R is very diverse in Africa.There is a great diversity of the macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45 mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009). Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88.


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I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.
quote:


Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of y chromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).



 -

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:
quote:

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).


As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.

 -

Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

The R1 haplogroup probably originated in Africa.

.

.
 -

.
The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia.

Abu-Amero et al (20009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of Ry-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa, especially Cameroon (Coia et al, 2005). Coia et al (2005) has revealed that no maternal Eurasian lineages have been found among Sub-Saharan Africans with a R1- M173 profile.
Haplogroup V88 has the greatest frequency in Africa. It is predominately carried by Chadic speakers, ranges between 2-60% among Central African Niger-Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).

 -

The vast majority of Africans belong to the y-chromosome E macrohaplogroup. Phylogenetically haplogroup R1b is mainly found in West Africa and the Sahel.

In this region the frequency of R-M173 can range between 85-100% among some Niger Congo speakers in Cameroon (Cruciani et al, 2010). The paternal record of M173 on the African continent illustrates a greater distribution of this y-chromosome among varied African populations than, in Asia.

 -

The greatest diversity of R1b in Africa is highly suggestive of an Africa origin for this male lineage because it is not isolated to just one part of Africa.

Archaeological (Lal, 1963), genetic (Winters, 2008;2010a), placenames (Balakrishnan, 2005) and linguistic data group (Aravanan,1979,1980; Upadhyaya, 1976,1979; Winters 1985a,1985b, 1989) linking Africans and Dravidian support the recent demic diffusion of SubSaharan Africans and gene flow from Africa to Eurasia. An early colonization of Eurasia 4kya by Sub-Saharan Africans and Dravidian carriers of R1-M173 is the best scenario to explain the high frequency and widespread geographical distribution of this y-chromosome on the African continent (Winters, 2010c). Given the greatest diversity of R1- M173, this is the most parsimonious model explaining the frequency of R-M173 in Africa.

Africans carry haplogroup R1a.

In India the Dravidian people carry the R1a haplogroup The Dravidian people of India originally lived in Middle Africa and belonged to the Proto-Saharan Civilization.
The Proto-Saharan civilization was situated in the Proto-Sahara, which includes Cameroon.
.
 -
.
In Cameroon we find carriers of R1a.
In addition to carriers of R1a in Cameroon; the Dravidian languages are still spoken today in Cameroon see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjk


In conclusion, the R macrohaplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa.



Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).

In Africa we find R-M269 and V88. Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 there is no evidence of archaeological evidence of a back migration or haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Saharans into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. As I made clear back in 2014 , y-chromosome R1, is of African origin.
.

 -
R1b carrier Prince Charles, paternally African

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Djehuti
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Why did lioness bother creating another thread on this topic??

Oh yeah that's right.
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

Is this actually an indigenous Canary Islander?

 -


George Glas' 1764 translation of an older
Spanish document says they were darker than people
of southern Spain and their hair was black and bushy.
I use Canarians instead of Guanches because only
the people of northern Tenerife are the Guanches
and only this small subset were light in colour.

  •  -
     -


    Juan de Abreu de Galindo
    , trans George Glas
    The History of the Discovery and Conquest of the Canary Islands

    Palmas, 1632
    London, 1764
    pp.281-282


Guanches are a small minority of the Canarians.
They only inhabited the north of Tenerife.

Besides the north part of Tenerife we have to
consider the central and south parts of Tenerife
along with the great bulk of the Canary Islands:
2 - Alegranza
3 - El Hierro
4 - Fuerteventura
5 - Gran Canaria
6 - Isla de Lobos
7 - La Gomera
8 - Lanzarote
9 - La Graciosa
10 - La Palma
11 - Montaña Clara
12 - Roque del Este
13 - Roque del Oeste.

We have seen them documented as darker skinned than
southern Spaniards and having bushy hair black in color.

quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

There was a black population on the Canary Islands prior to the slave trade and European Invasions...

Mathilda won't talk about this will she??

Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435



http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm


Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/other/catholicism-the-black-experience/

1402

Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Why did lioness bother creating another thread on this topic??


I found a new article on it which has some new information in it
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xyyman
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Yes. He/they did. Very informative NEW paper.
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xyyman
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Fake Royals? Impostors to the throne of England?

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1815/king-richard-skeleton-discovered-arab?page=1

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. As I made clear back in 2014 , y-chromosome R1, is of African origin.
.

 -
R1b carrier Prince Charles, paternally African


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xyyman
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Need help here. Are they saying that Eastern Tauregs are the remnants of the Afalou and Taforralt? This population carry a low diversity of mtDNA compared to the also low diversity of Afalou and Taforralt from 20,000ya BEFORE or DURING the Ice Age.


The question an intelligent person will ask is:
1. we know La Brana was black skinned. Also Loshcbour~4000bc). So Europeans were black skinned up to 6000ya and beyond. So a betting man would bet that yes, Afalou and Taforralt, were also black 22,000ya. Right? All reputable geneticist have concluded that prior to 6000ya Europeans were black maybe like Melanesians or Dravidians. They are the some of the darkest people on the planet.
2. So we get that out the way the question to ask is were these mtDNA H carrying Africans also black. I would think there weren't white while Europeans were black at that time/ Right. That seems upsided down. White Africans but black Europeans. Lol!
3. Also interesting is We know SSA line seems to be absent 22000ya but we have MTDNA L in prehistoric Europe. So obviously SSA lineage may be part of the Neolithic package.

So the picture emerging is that black(or white) mtDNA carriers occupied North Africa for about 15,000years BEFORE the emergence of Neolithic technology. The author is stated that SSA components came from Sudan around the same time as the commencement of Neolithic Technology in North Africa.

Where are the Luyha(LWK) from again?

---
Quote:
The HVS1 mtDNA diversity observed in samples from TAF and AFA (0.7810 ± 0.0943 and 0.8095 ± 0.1298, respectively)
was slightly LOWER than that observed in the majority of current Mediterranean populations (from 0.853 ± 0.045 to
1.000 ± 0.005; Kefi et al. 2015) and higher than that observed in Eastern Tuareg population (0.677 ± 0.046; Ottoni et al.
2009).

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Need help here. Are they saying that Eastern Tauregs are the remnants of the Afalou and Taforralt? This population carry a low diversity of mtDNA compared to the also low diversity of Afalou and Taforralt from 20,000ya BEFORE or DURING the Ice Age.


The question an intelligent person will ask is:
1. we know La Brana was black skinned.

Being black, as the term is used in America is more than just being black skinned. The exact degree of skin darkness of La Brana is unknown, the estimate was 7,000 not 6,000.

You should stop bringing up La Brana as primary model for modern Euroepans because La Brana was of a very rare clade of haplogroup C and was a hunter gatherer

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Fake Royals? Impostors to the throne of England?

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1815/king-richard-skeleton-discovered-arab?page=1

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. As I made clear back in 2014 , y-chromosome R1, is of African origin.
.

 -
R1b carrier Prince Charles, paternally African


Your story on King Richard II is totally irrelevant. It pertains to the Plantagenet family only and the skeleton examined was G-P287.

Richard II is R1b as is hugely common in Europe. According to you he is a depigmented African whose ancestors lived in Africa less than 8,000 years ago


 -
Spencer Wells, the project director of The Genographic Project, is a member of haplogroup R1b

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xyyman
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Am I missing something?

quote:
"Richard II is R1b"???? Is this another lie Lying-ness?

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xyyman
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Even your buds at SF agrees with me...

https://www.reddit.com/r/StormfrontorSJW/comments/373qh0/richard_iii_had_noneuropean_dna_therefore_the/

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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I never knew until now that the people at SF were referencing my material! What do you think DJ? Those blundering fools at SF are using my material. SMH


Quote from the study. This is from the author not me. I am only the messenger. Don’t get mad at me. Skeleton 1 is Richard III.:
----
Quote:
“In contrast to the Y-haplotypes of the putative modern relatives, Skeleton 1 belongs to haplogroup G-P287, with a corresponding Y-STR haplotype. Thus, the ****putative*** modern patrilinear RELATIVES of Richard III areNOT genetically related to Skeleton 1 through the male line over the time period considered.”
----


Pssst! I let you into another secret. The modern relatives are NOT related through the FEMALE line either! Wink. REALLY. Lol! But no-one cares. Let these Europeans continue to fantasize and believe the delusion and lies.

I bring only truth.

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xyyman
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I am only the messenger….so the Royal family are impostors to the throne

Quote:
“false-paternity between Edward III (1312–1377) and John would mean that John’s son, Henry IV (1367–1413), and Henry’s direct descendants (Henry V and Henry VI) would have had no legitimate claim to the crown. This would also hold true, indirectly, for the entire Tudor dynasty (Henry VII, Henry VIII, Edward VI, Mary I and Elizabeth I) since their claim to the crown also rested, in part, on their descent from John of Gaunt. The claim of the Tudor dynasty would also be brought into question if the false paternity occurred between John of Gaunt and his son, John Beaufort, Earl of Somerset. If the false paternity occurred in either of the three generations between Edward III and Richard, Duke of York, the father of Edward IV and Richard III, then neither of their claims to the crown would have been legitimate

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Am I missing something?


Yes


 -

Around 65% of modern English, 70% of Scots, 85% of Irish, and 90% of Welsh men have a Y-chromosome of the "R1b-M343" gene type. In other words, most modern British males are loaded with almost identical man-genes as those carried by Megalithic settlers arriving over 5,000 years ago


xyyman have you ever checked out what these people looked like or do you just theorize what they look like?
Have you ever met an Irish person? The large majority of them are paternally African right?

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xyyman
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But there are a few honest white people. Is she saying that there was an African elite in Europe that was somehow overthrown or dethroned?
---
Quote
Anne Angstadt said...
G may be very rare in northern and western Europe, but it's not rare elsewhere. It's the haplogroup of Oetzi the Iceman and its occurrence in modern Europe and W. Asia looks very much like a refugia pattern--a major refugium is the Caucasus where reaches 50% or more among various peoples including the Ossetians and Kartvelians. I can't be the only one who read this paper and immediately thought of Littleton & Malcor's *From Scythia to Camelot,* can I? There's no dispute that the Romans moved people from W. Asia to western Europe including the British Isles, the authors' departure is arguing that these Indo-Iranian steppe peoples retained their identity for some time and affected the development of post-Imperial society in these regions, including forming the nucleus of new local elites. No great stretch from this to the emergence into history of Richard III's Angevin ancestors in the late 9th century, in west central France. Once again we're looking at a fascinating clue to the movements of people.
Also interesting if beside the point, Richard's mtdna is a rare variant--J1c2c--supposedly found only in N. England, of a ****predominately N. African lineage*****. I'm beginning to think his entire genome was a legacy of the Empire and its remarkable "globalization." Wasn't there a Roman burial in London of a young woman, clad in Chinese silk, whose isotope analysis suggested she grew up in N. Africa? In any case, it appears "the last English King of England" was neither Anglo-Saxon nor Norman.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Question

1. What data or proof do you have the Megalith settlers carried R1b? Did you make that up? Another lie by Lying-ness

I am not disputing R1b is NOW the dominant haplogroup in Western Europe. The question is why and how since obviously the elites during mediaval times were NOT R1b but carried primarily African (North) lineage on BOTH the male and female side.


That reminds me you should check out my thread on ESR……”not even the Vikings were white”. More lies about blonde blue eyed Nordic Scandinavians wielding axes as Vikings. Man, Europeans are delusional!!!

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Ish Geber
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UK mapped out by genetic ancestry
Finest-scale DNA survey of any country reveals historical migrations.


http://www.nature.com/news/uk-mapped-out-by-genetic-ancestry-1.17136

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quote:
R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (70%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia.
--NM Myres er al. ‎(2011)

A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

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quote:
"It is at best an intriguing hypothesis but that is likely to remain an unproven one."

-- Professor Emeritus Glanville Price

"Languages Britain and Ireland." (page 3.)


quote:
These original Britons were subjugated by the Romans then displaced by an influx of Anglo Saxons from Germany and Holland in the sixth and seventh centuries AD. Later invasions by the Vikings and the Normans further altered the local population.


The Roman occupation of Britain had a profound impact on trade, culture and technology, but saw little in the way of actual immigration.

After the Roman withdrawal in around 400AD, Britain entered the Dark Ages – and found itself increasingly vulnerable to attack by outside forces.


Wave after wave of Europeans came to displace the native Britons. The three main tribes were the Angles from Angeln in northern Germany, the Saxons from Lower Saxony, and the Jutes from the Jutland Peninsular.


The study found remarkable genetic similarities between the two populations and concluded that a ‘mass migration event’ must have occurred in the Dark Ages. In other words, a flood of Anglo Saxons came to dominate the English gene pool, stopping short at the Welsh border

The Romans founded London, built roads, baths and aqueducts, overhauled trade and introduced coinage.

The Vikings brought with them words from Old Norse that remain in our language today – some of them tellingly aggressive (knife, ransack, die), some rather more elemental (husband, sky, bairn, get, call).

The Normans had arguably the greatest impact, establishing one of the oldest monarchical lines in the word, overhauling the political and legal systems, and fusing French and English words together, as well as kick-starting a thousand-year rivalry with the Old Enemy.


--Mark G Thomas, Michael P.H Stumpf, Heinrich Härke
Published 22 October 2006.DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2006.3627

Evidence for an apartheid-like social structure in early Anglo-Saxon England

Genetic Britain: How Roman, Viking and Anglo-Saxon Genes Make up the UK's DNA

Evidence for an apartheid-like social structure in early Anglo-Saxon England


quote:
Fifteen generations marks the upper limit for the duration of an Anglo-Saxon/British apartheid-like social structure since, by assuming an intergenerational time of between 25 and 30 years, this is the approximate time span between the initial immigration in the middle of the fifth century and the laws of Alfred the Great (issued around AD 890), which do not contain any indications of legal status differences between Britons and Anglo-Saxons (Whitelock 1979).


Such a distinction is unlikely to have arisen in the seventh century, two centuries after the initial contact. It is much more likely to have originated in the immigration situation of the fifth and early sixth centuries. On the other hand, this ethnic distinction of two intermingling populations and its formalization in law cannot have survived for such a long period without some mechanism that perpetuated the distinction.

--Mark G Thomas,1* Michael P.H Stumpf,2 and Heinrich Härke3

1Department of Biology, University College London, Wolfson House, 4 Stephenson Way

2Centre for Bioinformatics, Imperial College London, Wolfson Building,

3Department of Archaeology, School of Human and Environmental Sciences,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635457/

While long before that, 2002:

quote:
Following depopulation during the last glacial maximum and subsequent resettlement by hunter-gatherers ca. 7000 b.c., the history of Britain has been marked by a series of cultural transitions. These include the appearance of sedentary agricultural communities (the Neolithic transition) (ca. 4000 b.c.), the arrival and spread of Late Bronze-Iron Age and Celtic material culture (ca. 1000–100 b.c.), Roman occupation and influence (a.d. 43–410), the rise of Anglo-Saxon language and culture (ca. a.d. 400–800), Viking invasions and influence (ca. . 800–1000), and the Norman Conquest (a.d. 1066)
--Michael E. Weale*,1, Deborah A. Weiss†,1, Rolf F. Jager*‡, Neil Bradman* and Mark G. Thomas*

Y Chromosome Evidence for Anglo-Saxon Mass Migration

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/7/1008.full

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Djehuti
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Lioness, you know damn well Tukuler called your b.s. out before by identifying Guanches specifically as all Canary Islanders. Yes, the Guanches were white in appearance as seen in Spanish and other Europeand descriptions so the fact that they carry the typical Western European hg R1b is no surprise. But what about the other Canary Islanders who were described as 'black' and according to the study Swenet cited carry unique E-M81 haplotypes??

Quit playing games.

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xyyman
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you are such a fugking plant. It is unbelievable who you are fooling? WTF did you just say there?

R1b = white? so Central Aficans who carry R1b are ..white? You are so fugking disgusting with your two-sided-double-speaking. Fugking plant. Within a year of joining this site I was unto your game. SMH


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Lioness, you know damn well Tukuler called your b.s. out before by identifying Guanches specifically as all Canary Islanders. Yes, the Guanches were white in appearance as seen in Spanish and other Europeand descriptions so the fact that they carry the typical Western European hg R1b is no surprise. But what about the other Canary Islanders who were described as 'black' and according to the study Swenet cited carry unique E-M81 haplotypes??

Quit playing games.


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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
you are such a fugking plant. It is unbelievable who you are fooling? WTF did you just say there?

R1b = white? so Central Aficans who carry R1b are ..white? You are so fugking disgusting with your two-sided-double-speaking. Fugking plant. Within a year of joining this site I was unto your game. SMH


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Lioness, you know damn well Tukuler called your b.s. out before by identifying Guanches specifically as all Canary Islanders. Yes, the Guanches were white in appearance as seen in Spanish and other Europeand descriptions so the fact that they carry the typical Western European hg R1b is no surprise. But what about the other Canary Islanders who were described as 'black' and according to the study Swenet cited carry unique E-M81 haplotypes??

Quit playing games.


I have known this for years.

.

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BrandonP
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This is Christopher Columbus describing the Native Americans he came into contact with when entering the Caribbean:
quote:
At daybreak great multitudes of men came to the shore, all young and of fine shapes, very handsome; their hair not curled but straight and coarse like horse-hair, and all with foreheads and heads much broader than any people I had hitherto seen; their eyes were large and very beautiful; they were not black, but the color of the inhabitants of the Canaries, which is a very natural circumstance, they being in the same latitude with the island of Ferro in the Canaries.
--Source

If Canary Islanders could be generalized to have the same skin tone as Native Americans of the Caribbean, and if that skin tone is explicitly contrasted with that of "black" Africans, I don't think Canary Islanders were regarded as a generally black people back then.

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Thereal
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No,the implication is the Indian are dark brown instead of jet black.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

you are such a fugking plant. It is unbelievable who you are fooling? WTF did you just say there?

R1b = white? so Central Aficans who carry R1b are ..white? You are so fugking disgusting with your two-sided-double-speaking. Fugking plant. Within a year of joining this site I was unto your game. SMH

WTF?!! Are you saying the white Guanches recieved their R1b from Central African Cameroonians as opposed to the geographically much closer Iberian Spaniards?!

Mothaf*cka who you think I'm a "plant" for and when have I ever double-spoken?!! You are just a demented old kook who misinterprets papers on population genetics. Instead of hanging around this forum conversing with knowledgeable people you need to take your ass to a retirement home somewhere.

As for Clyde Winters, I have ignored you for the same reason. You are a joke in academia and worse a shill for the Euronuts who use you as their own puppet to refute African studies. I pity you and don't care what you think or say.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:

This is Christopher Columbus describing the Native Americans he came into contact with when entering the Caribbean:
quote:
At daybreak great multitudes of men came to the shore, all young and of fine shapes, very handsome; their hair not curled but straight and coarse like horse-hair, and all with foreheads and heads much broader than any people I had hitherto seen; their eyes were large and very beautiful; they were not black, but the color of the inhabitants of the Canaries, which is a very natural circumstance, they being in the same latitude with the island of Ferro in the Canaries.
--Source

If Canary Islanders could be generalized to have the same skin tone as Native Americans of the Caribbean, and if that skin tone is explicitly contrasted with that of "black" Africans, I don't think Canary Islanders were regarded as a generally black people back then.

This is actually not hard to fathom. The Spanish also describe the Canary Islanders as having "bushy hair". Combine this trait with the dark coppery brown of Carib Indians and you can imagine how they may have looked.

LOL Their complexion was probably the "brun-white" that Coon coined which he used for peoples from the Tuareg to Abyssinians and even 'pure' Arabs.

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

you are such a fugking plant. It is unbelievable who you are fooling? WTF did you just say there?

R1b = white? so Central Aficans who carry R1b are ..white? You are so fugking disgusting with your two-sided-double-speaking. Fugking plant. Within a year of joining this site I was unto your game. SMH

WTF?!! Are you saying the white Guanches recieved their R1b from Central African Cameroonians as opposed to the geographically much closer Iberian Spaniards?!

Mothaf*cka who you think I'm a "plant" for and when have I ever double-spoken?!! You are just a demented old kook who misinterprets papers on population genetics. Instead of hanging around this forum conversing with knowledgeable people you need to take your ass to a retirement home somewhere.

As for Clyde Winters, I have ignored you for the same reason. You are a joke in academia and worse a shill for the Euronuts who use you as their own puppet to refute African studies. I pity you and don't care what you think or say.

Ouch...
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the lioness,
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Hinduism!
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xyyman
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^Hiduism. [Big Grin] Exactly. He is double talking SOB.

Another Example!

"WTF?!! Are you saying the white Guanches recieved their R1b from Central African Cameroonians as opposed to the geographically much closer Iberian Spaniards?!"

What makes the two tongues idiot think Guanches are white like Iberians? Did they disclose the the SLC24A5 of the aDNA of Guanches? SMH. Stupid cunt.

We know Lioness's Job here. But yours?

When called out by the white boy he back tracks and says "brown like arabs" SMH. lol!

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xyyman
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what makes you think I am conversing? What me to leave? This is what you want?

"Instead of hanging around this forum conversing with knowledgeable people"

Freudian?

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xyyman
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@ BBH
As I told the white young man. Don't fear me....embrace me. I bring truth. That goes for you also. I smell fear!

Continue to suck dick....the white boy has showed he has more nuts than you. Fugking yes man!


I am leaving Swenet out of this because he has showed he is his own man.


quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:
[qb]
you are such a fugking plant. It is unbelievable who you are fooling? WTF did you just say there?

R1b = white? so Central Aficans who carry R1b are ..white? You are so fugking disgusting with your two-sided-double-speaking. Fugking plant. Within a year of joining this site I was unto your game. SMH



[b]

OTE]Ouch...


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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Hinduism!

What?! LOL And YOU are the real plant, a mole, an agent sent to this forum by Mathilda. We've known this for years yet still wear that black-faced avatar. For what?

And of course the senile fool xyzman would agree with you. He is so dumb, he'll actually agree with a real Euronut enemy than I or Swenet who try to correct him. Go figure.

It is a waste of time and bandwidth even conversing with idiots like lioness and xyz

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

^Hiduism. [Big Grin] Exactly. He is double talking SOB.

Another Example!

"WTF?!! Are you saying the white Guanches recieved their R1b from Central African Cameroonians as opposed to the geographically much closer Iberian Spaniards?!"

What makes the two tongues idiot think Guanches are white like Iberians? Did they disclose the the SLC24A5 of the aDNA of Guanches? SMH. Stupid cunt.

We know Lioness's Job here. But yours?

When called out by the white boy he back tracks and says "brown like arabs" SMH. lol!

Uh, because the Guanches WERE white!!

 -

 -

It is a historical FACT that the Guanches natives were white, however the other Canary Island natives were NOT.

Lioness knows this which is why in her deceitful way she uses the Guanches as a proxy for ALL Canary natives. YOU are the idiot who simply fell for her ploy.

"Stupid cunt" actually describes the Lioness, but YOU who actually are fooled by her would be the even dumber douche bag of the cunt! LOL [Big Grin]

Oh and by the way, if you did any research on Coon's "brun-white" then you would know the brown complexion I am referring to looks like this:

Hadhrammi Arabs
 -
 -

Now go stick yourself back into Lioness. [Embarrassed]

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the lioness,
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You can tell Djehuti comes form a very low class background
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Djehuti
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^ Speak for yourself, twit. All you do is lie and instigate. I did not mind xyz until he began personally insulting me. As far as my background goes there is nothing "low class" about it however I am not one to mess with. You fools have the luck of being somewhere distant behind a computer screen for you to type your bullsh*t but know that if you come at me even verbally I have no qualms retaliating.
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