Thoughts? I actually use to debate with her. On her other videos one from Ancestry.com she scored 75% North African while her Gedmatch was only 45% North African. But those two vidoes deleted. But now here she scored 94% North African!!!
Anyways, she seems to be one of those Berbers who wants to PROVE they're African but at the same time don't want to be African if you catch my drift. Her fans in the comment section especially seem to echo it.
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Remember that ancestry components aren't phylogenetic constructs.
That is one of the big takeaways from the recent barrage of ancient DNA studies; 'Caucasians' have been treated as a primary 'race' all this time and now we know they're a hybrid population. So when you see DNA results talk about 100% or 90% European you know they're not capturing phylogenetic realities. All they're capturing with "100% European" is the post-neolithic European genepool, and that genepool is thoroughly mixed.
Something similar applies to her results in my view.
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What is interesting to me is how much African is hiding in that "94% North African". A lot of future surprises will come from that African part. Just wait and see.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Remember that ancestry components aren't phylogenetic constructs.
That is one of the big takeaways from the recent barrage of ancient DNA studies; 'Caucasians' have been treated as a primary race all this time and now we know they're a hybrid population. So when you see DNA results talk about 100% or 90% European you know they're not capturing phylogenetic realities. All they're capturing with "100% European" is the post-neolithic European genepool, and that genepool is thoroughly mixed.
Something similar applies to her results in my view.
I was thinking something quite similar to this. To me I thought her Ancestry.com and 23andMe results did not "remove" the Eurasian component from the North African sample. And thus why she showed so much "North African" admixture in both results. Meanwhile it seemed like her GEDmatch did that and what you are talking about as in that video she showed very high Eurasiuan admixture and she seemed a bit disappointed. Her GEDmatch results also said she was almost half East African.
Anyways, do you agree that her features look very "Africoid", because to me they do especially her skin tone and facial features in my opinion.
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She says that she is happy to me 94% North African according to 23andMe and is happy that the European percentage was not the 14% of the other testing company. The berbers currently living in North Africa have a socio-politcal nationalistic motivation to be indigenous to North Africa. After all that is where they are living
The ironic thing is that says at the same time saying she is proud to be 94% "North African" she says the test determined she is of of Haplogroup V and then goes on to talk about Haplogroup V in the Sammi of Finland and in Iberia. She says the Sammi people of Finland have and "ancestral link to the Amazigh.
wikipedia:
Haplogroup V
Distribution[edit] Haplogroup V is a relatively rare mtDNA haplogroup, occurring in around 4% of native Europeans.[4] Its highest concentration is among the Saami people of northern Scandinavia (~59%). It has been found at a frequency of approximately 10% among the Maris of the Volga-Ural region, leading to the suggestion that this region might be the source of the V among the Saami.[5][6] Additionally, haplogroup V has been observed at higher than average levels among Cantabrian people (15%) of northern Iberia,[7] and at a lower percentage among the adjacent Basque (10.4%).[8]
Haplogroup V is also found in parts of Northwest Africa. It is mainly concentrated among the Tuareg inhabiting the Gorom-Gorom area in Burkina Faso (21%), Sahrawi in the Western Sahara (17.9%),[ and Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia (16.3%). The rare V7a subclade occurs among Algerians in Oran (1.08%) and Reguibate Sahrawi (1.85%).
Ancient DNA
MtDNA haplogroup V has been reported in Neolithic remains of the Linear Pottery culture at Halberstadt, Germany c. 5000 BC[ and Derenburg Meerenstieg, Germany c. 4910 BC.Haplogroup V7 was found in representative Maykop culture samples in the excavations conducted by Alexei Rezepkin.Haplogroup V has been detected in representatives Trypil'ska and Unetice culture.
Haplogroup V has also been found among Iberomaurusian specimens dating from the Epipaleolithic at the Taforalt prehistoric site.
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Does this mean 23andMe classifies haplogroup V as North African in origin?
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wikipedia
Sammi people
mtDNA
Classification of the Sami mtDNA lineages revealed that the majority are clustered in a subset of the European mtDNA pool. The two haplogroups V and U5b dominate, between them accounting for about 89% of the total. This gives the Sami regions the highest level of Haplogroups V and U5b thus far found. Both haplogroups V and U5b are spread at moderate frequencies across Europe, from Iberia to the Ural Mountains. Haplogroups H, D5 and Z represent most of the remaining averaged total. Overall 98% of the Sami mtDNA pool is encompassed within haplogroups V, U5b, H, Z, and D5. Local frequencies among the Sami vary.[2] The divergence time for the Sami haplogroup V sequences was estimated by Max Ingman and Ulf Gyllensten at 7600 YBP (years before present), and for U5b1b1 as 5500 YBP amongst Sami and 6600 YBP amongst Sami and Finns. This suggests to them an arrival in the region soon after the retreat of the glacial ice.[3]
U5b Although a small proportion of the Haplogroup U (mtDNA) among the Sami falls into U4, the great majority is U5b. The percentage of total Sami mtDNA samples tested by Tambets and her colleagues which were U5b ranged from 56.8% in Norwegian Sami to 26.5% in Swedish Sami.[2] Sami U5b falls into subclade U5b1b1. The Sami U5b1b1 [2] sub-clade is present in many different populations, e.g. 3% or higher frequencies in Karelia, Finland, and Northern-Russia.[2] The Sami U5b1 motif is additionally found in very low frequencies for instance in the Caucasus region, however this is explained as recent migration from Europe.[4] However 38% of the Sami U5b1b1 mtDNAs have haplotype so far exclusive to the Sami, containing a transition at np 16148.[2]
Alessandro Achilli and colleagues noted that the Sami and the Berbers share U5b1b, which they estimated at 9,000 years old, and argued that this provides evidence for a radiation of the haplogroup from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe.[5]
V As mentioned above, the divergence time for the Sami haplogroup V sequences was estimated by Max Ingman and Ulf Gyllensten at 7600 years ago.[3] Haplogroup V is by far the most frequent haplogroup in the Swedish Sami and is present at significantly lower frequencies in Norwegian and Finnish subpopulations.[2] Torroni and colleagues have suggested that the spread of haplogroup V in Scandinavia and in eastern Europe is due to its late Pleistocene/early Holocene expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian glacial refugium.[6]
However subsequent studies found that haplogroup V is also significantly present in eastern Europeans. Furthermore, haplogroup V lineages with HVS-I transitions 16153 and 16298 that are frequent in the Sami population are much more widespread in eastern than in western Europe. So haplogroup V might have reached Fennoscandia via central/eastern Europe. Such a scenario is indirectly supported by the absence, among the Sami, of the pre-V mtDNAs that are characteristic of southwestern Europeans and northwestern Africans.[2]
Z Haplogroup Z is found at low frequency in the Sami and Northern Asian populations but is virtually absent in Europe. Several conserved substitutions group the Sami Z lineages with those from Finland and the Volga-Ural region of Russia. The estimated dating of the lineage at 2700 years suggests a small, relatively recent contribution of people from the Volga-Ural region to the Sami population.
In an upcoming blogpost I was actually going to address this as part of a larger topic. These GEDmatch test and other tests are basically racially 'resetting' populations so that you can now have "100% European" and "100% Middle Eastern" samples, even though Europeans and Middle Easterners cluster away from their own regional AMHs. You obviously can't be 100% belonging to a region when your ancestry is only partly comprised of ancient inhabitants of these regions.
I was supposed to publish it in Januari but I shelved it because it was just too interesting to publish in as an ordinary blog post. I might publish it in Kindle format as Ish Gebor suggested.
DJ or someone else did a thread on how some Maghrebis still have features that look like that. Whatever these features are, they clearly set Maghrebis apart from living Europeans and Middle Easterners.
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In an upcoming blogpost I was actually going to address this as part of a larger topic. These GEDmatch test and other tests are basically racially 'resetting' populations so that you can now have "100% European" and "100% Middle Eastern" samples, even though Europeans and Middle Easterners cluster away from their own regional AMHs. You obviously can't be 100% belonging to a region when your ancestry is only partly comprised of ancient inhabitants of these regions.
I was supposed to publish it in Januari but I shelved it because it was just too interesting to publish in as an ordinary blog post. I might publish it in Kindle format as Ish Gebor suggested.
DJ or someone else did a thread on how some Maghrebis still have features that look like that. Whatever these features are, they clearly set Maghrebis apart from living Europeans and Middle Easterners.
Look at his features, he's half European
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Yes, when you buy into attempts to racially reset Europeans, he is half European and half African. Go on.. where are you going with his picture?
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DJ or someone else did a thread on how some Maghrebis still have features that look like that. Whatever these features are, they clearly set Maghrebis apart from living Europeans and Middle Easterners.
He's half European so the idea that "features are, they clearly set Maghrebis apart from living Europeans and Middle Easterners." does not work, his African looking features do not set him apart from the fact that he's half European
Maghrebis of nomadic background are extremely diversified with all sorts of different mixtures as per the history on the region. You cant really say anything is typical features or a setting apart
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You might accept nowadays that Maghrebis are hybrid populations somewhat similar to Obama, but that is not the prevailing idea out there.
I was addressing people like Henn, Kefi, Harich and even Hiernaux who have tried to portray Maghrebis as small amounts of slave SSA ancestry on top of a Eurasian substratum. You can't reconcile her features with that because she clearly does not look like highly mixed African Americans or other groups with ancestry from the same source populations. You will not get that specific phenotype I was referring to, even if you try to find Afram individuals with all sorts of varying proportions of Euro and West African ancestry.
There are missing ingredients not mentioned by these researchers and, like I said, these missing ingredients set her apart.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] You might accept nowadays that Maghrebis are hybrid populations somewhat similar to Obama, but that is not the prevailing idea out there.
One can take it back thousands of years with the H at Taforalt and then up to the present most Maghrebis also Hg H, with this woman it's V. The Y DNA is predominately E3 and that goes back several thousands years in the region also.
Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link
Alessandro Achilli,1 Chiara Rengo,1 Vincenza Battaglia,1 Maria Pala,1 Anna Olivieri,1 Simona Fornarino,1 Chiara Magri,1 Rosaria Scozzari,2 Nora Babudri,3 A. Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,4 Ornella Semino,1 and Antonio Torroni1
The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ∼9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers.
The recent molecular dissection of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1 and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations, including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence ages of ∼11 ky (Achilli et al. 2004). Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V (Torroni et al. 2001a)—which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami (together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs) (Torroni et al. 1996; Tambets et al. 2004). Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ∼15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
In conclusion, this study is a paradigmatic example of the power of genetic inference in human-origin and evolutionary studies. It shows that mtDNA data—in this case, at the highest possible level of molecular resolution—can be used not only to evaluate models proposed by other disciplines and based on the direct survey of ancient material but also to identify previously unknown links between populations and geographic areas. Thus, the study of human genetics directly fosters the development of new research avenues in paleontology, archaeology, linguistics, and history.
truth being stranger than fiction, Finns and berbers being apparently related, 9,000 years framework
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One of the aforementioned missing ingredients?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: It's funny you should mention the comparison to San because the rock art image I posted comes from the Atlas Mountains of Morocco! I guess you missed it when Amun-Ra first posted the pic on another thread. It was discovered in the Atlas Mountains by a Susan Searight. My point of posting that picture was that it probably gives us a clue as to how the indigenes of the Atlas Mountain area looked like. That it bears a striking resemblance to the art of South African San may be an indication of a commonality that reaches to times immemorial. That's why I asked if you know of Berber tribes in the area displaying such traits as steatopygea. In fact many Western anthropologists in a time not long ago postulated 'Bushmanoid' types as being aboriginal to North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: One of the aforementioned missing ingredients?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: That's why I asked if you know of Berber tribes in the area displaying such traits as steatopygea. In fact many Western anthropologists in a time not long ago postulated 'Bushmanoid' types as being aboriginal to North Africa.
It's random pictures and entirely assumption that these pictures of modern people have 'Archaic' facial Features of archaic North African. And the people posted, do they have steatopygea? No The proper title of the thread should be Modern Day North Africans who Exhibit unique looking Features.
And where's the steatopygea in the ancient remains found in the region at Taforalt, Afalou or Gobero ? Not there.
First you would have to start with the morphology of the ancient remains in the region and determine what the morphology/ facial features are and then maybe you could go about trying to find modern people with those features -and then noticing in all the reconstructions we see of Tut and so on done by professional teams yet the speculative results looking so different from team to team, the lack or consistency even when you have professional forensic reconstruction
And the ancient sites such as Iberomaurusian, Capsian , these various cultures often regarded by anthropologists as different and these archaic populations and related climate changes not necessarily showing continuity between then or not necessarily showing continuity to present day populations
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Like I said a couple of days ago, people should stop using discussions as a way to educate themselves. You're supposed to enter discussions knowing already beforehand, not leech information from the person you're trying to debate, as you're debating them. You haven't done your homework and it shows.
Next time, try not to give yourself away by assuming that steatopygia can be identified from skeletal remains.
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quote:It's random pictures and entirely assumption that these pictures of modern people have 'Archaic' facial Features of archaic North African.
How about the following?
British Museum
Description: Part of a polychrome glazed composition tile bearing a relief representation of the head and upper body of a Libyan prisoner with a pointed beard, side-lock and bound hands (one lost).
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The ironic thing is that says at the same time saying she is proud to be 94% "North African" she says the test determined she is of of Haplogroup V and then goes on to talk about Haplogroup V in the Sammi of Finland and in Iberia. She says the Sammi people of Finland have and "ancestral link to the Amazigh.
The irony is it that SOY Keita dismissed this study, ancient Berber-Sami relation. He said it is not true, it is simply not true.
Not my opinion.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Remember that ancestry components aren't phylogenetic constructs.
That is one of the big takeaways from the recent barrage of ancient DNA studies; 'Caucasians' have been treated as a primary 'race' all this time and now we know they're a hybrid population. So when you see DNA results talk about 100% or 90% European you know they're not capturing phylogenetic realities. All they're capturing with "100% European" is the post-neolithic European genepool, and that genepool is thoroughly mixed.
Something similar applies to her results in my view.
Agreed 100%.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: @BBH
In an upcoming blogpost I was actually going to address this as part of a larger topic. These GEDmatch test and other tests are basically racially 'resetting' populations so that you can now have "100% European" and "100% Middle Eastern" samples, even though Europeans and Middle Easterners cluster away from their own regional AMHs. You obviously can't be 100% belonging to a region when your ancestry is only partly comprised of ancient inhabitants of these regions.
I was supposed to publish it in Januari but I shelved it because it was just too interesting to publish in as an ordinary blog post. I might publish it in Kindle format as Ish Gebor suggested.
DJ or someone else did a thread on how some Maghrebis still have features that look like that. Whatever these features are, they clearly set Maghrebis apart from living Europeans and Middle Easterners.
I looked up her channel, she has a few SOY Keita video's.
This one is the video on Polytopicity. So she knows and understands.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: And the ancient sites such as Iberomaurusian, Capsian
The ancient markers found there are diverse and some are what we consider stereotypical sub-Saharan markers. Swenet is right.
Perhaps I can recall:
quote:
Abstract
North East Europe harbors a high diversity of cultures and languages, suggesting a complex genetic history. Archaeological, anthropological, and genetic research has revealed a series of influences from Western and Eastern Eurasia in the past. While genetic data from modern-day populations is commonly used to make inferences about their origins and past migrations, ancient DNA provides a powerful test of such hypotheses by giving a snapshot of the past genetic diversity. In order to better understand the dynamics that have shaped the gene pool of North East Europeans, we generated and analyzed 34 mitochondrial genotypes from the skeletal remains of three archaeological sites in northwest Russia. These sites were dated to the Mesolithic and the Early Metal Age (7,500 and 3,500 uncalibrated years Before Present). We applied a suite of population genetic analyses (principal component analysis, genetic distance mapping, haplotype sharing analyses) and compared past demographic models through coalescent simulations using Bayesian Serial SimCoal and Approximate Bayesian Computation.
[...]
We identified remarkable genetic dissimilarities between prehistoric and modern-day North East Europeans/Saami, which suggests an important role of post-Mesolithic migrations from Western Europe and subsequent population replacement/extinctions.
This work demonstrates how ancient DNA can improve our understanding of human population movements across Eurasia.
It contributes to the description of the spatio-temporal distribution of mitochondrial diversity and will be of significance for future reconstructions of the history of Europeans.
Author Summary
The history of human populations can be retraced by studying the archaeological and anthropological record, but also by examining the current distribution of genetic markers, such as the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA. Ancient DNA research allows the retrieval of DNA from ancient skeletal remains and contributes to the reconstruction of the human population history through the comparison of ancient and present-day genetic data. Here, we analysed the mitochondrial DNA of prehistoric remains from archaeological sites dated to 7,500 and 3,500 years Before Present. These sites are located in North East Europe, a region that displays a significant cultural and linguistic diversity today but for which no ancient human DNA was available before. We show that prehistoric hunter-gatherers of North East Europe were genetically similar to other European foragers. We also detected a prehistoric genetic input from Siberia, followed by migrations from Western Europe into North East Europe. Our research contributes to the understanding of the origins and past dynamics of human population in Europe.
[...]
Coalescent simulations
In coalescent simulation analyses we considered the ancient populations of aUzPo, aBOO, Central/East/Scandinavian European hunter-gatherers (aHG [12], [14], aPWC [13]), and the modern populations of NEE, CE, and Saami (saa). Population statistics (haplotype diversity and fixation indexes, FST) for the ancient and extant populations were calculated in Arlequin version 3.11 (Table 2, [91]).
--Clio Der Sarkissian et al. (2013)
Ancient DNA Reveals Prehistoric Gene-Flow from Siberia in the Complex Human Population History of North East Europe
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The ironic thing is that says at the same time saying she is proud to be 94% "North African" she says the test determined she is of of Haplogroup V and then goes on to talk about Haplogroup V in the Sammi of Finland and in Iberia. She says the Sammi people of Finland have and "ancestral link to the Amazigh.
The irony is it that SOY Keita dismissed this study, ancient Berber-Sami relation. He said it is not true, it is simply not true.
Not my opinion.
No he did not say the Berber-Saami relation was untrue
quote:
“The existence of mtDNA lineages common to Saami and some Amazigh groups (Achilli et al. 2005) is likely to be explained by the migration of females bearing these lineages from a region in northern Europe (perhaps in the ranks of the Vandals or far more ancient back-migrations to Africa), whether they were ethnically Saami or not. ”
--Biocultural Emergence of the Amazigh in Africa: Comment on Frigi et al. (2010) S. O. Y. Keita. Human Biology (August 2010) (82:4)
^ He says here that the mtDNA relation between Saami and some berber groups can be explained by back migration from Northern Europe into Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Remember that ancestry components aren't phylogenetic constructs.
That is one of the big takeaways from the recent barrage of ancient DNA studies; 'Caucasians' have been treated as a primary 'race' all this time and now we know they're a hybrid population. So when you see DNA results talk about 100% or 90% European you know they're not capturing phylogenetic realities. All they're capturing with "100% European" is the post-neolithic European genepool, and that genepool is thoroughly mixed.
Something similar applies to her results in my view.
I concur with Swenet, these ancestry test results are misleading in that they don't go into depth in both phylogenetics and earlier prehistoric periods of time. I also find it funny how lioness conveniently ignored the point Swenet raised about how Europeans/Cockasians are held up as a primary 'race' or human population while ignoring their own mixed ancestry. Remember at least one-third of European ancestry is African in origin and is associated with the neolithic yet as Swenet pointed out post-neolithic Europeans are suppose to be a homogeneous single 'white race'.
This is why I also question the exact nature of these ancestry sites' conception of 'North African' as per the results of this young Moroccan woman. We know from all the genetic experts that Swenet cited that North African populations are not a single homogeneous groupt either and that Maghrebi (western) North Africans are quite distinct from Mashriki (eastern) North Africans i.e. Egypto-Nubians/Nile Valley dwellers.
In fact I remember reading a study several years ago by either Henn, Harich, or someone else stressing how North Africans populations should not be classed together phylogenetically as a single group due to their heterogeneous nature. I actually first learned about this over a decade ago on this forum from Ausar, Rasol, and others.
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This is why I have abandoned 'eyeball' anthropology over a decade ago, while simple-minded folk like the poster above he apparently hasn't. The Moroccan woman does look a so-called "mulatto" type or someone of mixed black ancestry but looks can say little to nothing about population history. Comparing Maghrebis to former president Obama is also hilarious considering the two very different ancestries of the individuals with Africa being the only commong factor.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The ironic thing is that says at the same time saying she is proud to be 94% "North African" she says the test determined she is of of Haplogroup V and then goes on to talk about Haplogroup V in the Sammi of Finland and in Iberia. She says the Sammi people of Finland have and "ancestral link to the Amazigh.
The irony is it that SOY Keita dismissed this study, ancient Berber-Sami relation. He said it is not true, it is simply not true.
Not my opinion.
No he did not say the Berber-Saami relation was untrue
quote:
“The existence of mtDNA lineages common to Saami and some Amazigh groups (Achilli et al. 2005) is likely to be explained by the migration of females bearing these lineages from a region in northern Europe (perhaps in the ranks of the Vandals or far more ancient back-migrations to Africa), whether they were ethnically Saami or not. ”
--Biocultural Emergence of the Amazigh in Africa: Comment on Frigi et al. (2010) S. O. Y. Keita. Human Biology (August 2010) (82:4)
^ He says here that the mtDNA relation between Saami and some berber groups can be explained by back migration from Northern Europe into Africa.
I am referring to S.O.Y. Keita's - The Bio Cultural Origins of Egypt. I don't know what part it was, I have to look it up.
Anyway, the weird part is:
quote:Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ∼9,000 years.
--Alessandro Achilli et al.
quote: These sites were dated to the Mesolithic and the Early Metal Age (7,500 and 3,500 uncalibrated years Before Present).
--Clio Der Sarkissian et al. (2013)
Perhaps these new/ latest findings will solve some issues,
Study: Europeans can be divided into Finns and non-Finns
posted
BlessedbyHorus, do you know the exact ethnicity of the Moroccan woman? There are different Berber ethnicities in Morocco. And this reminds me of another fallacy of using certain individuals to represent the whole group let alone nation or transnational region (North Africa).
Just over 50 years ago the racist Carleton Coon considered the Shluh Berber man below as par examplar his "small brown Mediterranean" type.
Today's Moroccan Berbers:
representative models for world beauty
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@Swenet, I apologize for the very late reply. I think we both have very different timezone. lol Anyways.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: @BBH
In an upcoming blogpost I was actually going to address this as part of a larger topic. These GEDmatch test and other tests are basically racially 'resetting' populations so that you can now have "100% European" and "100% Middle Eastern" samples, even though Europeans and Middle Easterners cluster away from their own regional AMHs. You obviously can't be 100% belonging to a region when your ancestry is only partly comprised of ancient inhabitants of these regions.
This is VERY eye opening for me and confirms that certain private DNA companies should be taken with a grain of salt. But question is this only for Europeans and Middle Easterners/North Africans? Or does this also include Sub Saharan Africans? Again I ask because it is very eye opening.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I was supposed to publish it in Januari but I shelved it because it was just too interesting to publish in as an ordinary blog post. I might publish it in Kindle format as Ish Gebor suggested.
DJ or someone else did a thread on how some Maghrebis still have features that look like that. Whatever these features are, they clearly set Maghrebis apart from living Europeans and Middle Easterners.
But in your honest opinion do you believe the women in the video has those features to an extent?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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I never heard of the Shluh Berbers. I'm about to do some research on them. Yeah, I dated a Moroccan girl and what I noticed about Northwest Africans especially Moroccans is that they have a very "biracial" appearance. I know this is not backed up by science but that's what I noticed from my personal experiences. I do not know what ethnicity the women in this video is(I'll ask) but I'm trying to get her to join here so we can further discuss her results.
btw these women are beautiful.
Her name seems to be Myriam Cayenne I think I heard of her. Is she Tunisian? Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BBHL Swenet, I apologize for the very late reply. I think we both have very different timezone. lol Anyways.
No problems, like I said in the other thread.
[quote]Originally posted by BBH: But question is this only for Europeans and Middle Easterners/North Africans? Or does this also include Sub Saharan Africans?
The fact that ancestry components can consist of more than one phylogenetic lineage also applies to Africans. One good example you've brought up in the past is the fact that some Africans have a degree of ancestry from Aterians or some other North African 'Mousterian'/MSA population. Usually this is lumped into 'East African' or 'North African', depending on where the individual is sampled. Another example is the very deep East African ancestry West/Central Africans have. In some of DNA Tribes' work you can see that West Africans have large East African ancestry components. Normally you don't see this in normal ancestry tests and West African ancestry of some individuals is often reported as >90% West African. Much of this East African ancestry in West/Central Africans is extremely ancient (~40ky ago) and so you can ask yourself if you can still can still think of that as non-indigenous. Many people would say it's indigenous at that point.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by BBH: But in your honest opinion do you believe the women in the video has those features to an extent?
In that thread (DJ's thread) I reposted one picture and compared it with another picture. Unfortunately both pictures are gone. Saying the blogger resembles them would be a stretch (there is more to resemblance than the features they have in common), but you can tell they both share things that don't overlap with most other populations.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by BBHL Swenet, I apologize for the very late reply. I think we both have very different timezone. lol Anyways.
No problems, like I said in the other thread.
[quote]Originally posted by BBH: But question is this only for Europeans and Middle Easterners/North Africans? Or does this also include Sub Saharan Africans?
The fact that ancestry components can consist of more than one phylogenetic lineage also applies to Africans. One good example you've brought up in the past is the fact that some Africans have a degree of ancestry from Aterians or some other North African 'Mousterian'/MSA population. Usually this is lumped into 'East African' or 'North African', depending on where the individual is sampled. Another example is the very deep East African ancestry West/Central Africans have. In some of DNA Tribes' work you can see that West Africans have large East African ancestry components. Normally you don't see this in normal ancestry tests and West African ancestry of some individuals is often reported as >90% West African. Much of this East African ancestry in West/Central Africans is extremely ancient (~40ky ago) and so you can ask yourself if you can still can still think of that as non-indigenous. Many people would say it's indigenous at that point.
You went deep here, I never looked at it like that.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Guys might get her to join since she is very interested in Northwest African genetic history. If she does join go easy on her.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: In that thread (DJ's thread) I reposted one picture and compared it with another picture. Unfortunately both pictures are gone. Saying the blogger resembles them would be a stretch (there is more to resemblance than the features they have in common), but you can tell they both share things that don't overlap with most other populations.
Yeah it would be a stretch. Its just that besides maybe her hair the rest of her features to me personally look "Africoid" or in better words local Maghrebian. I know its eyeball anthropology but her features compared to other Moroccans stand out to me.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The fact that ancestry components can consist of more than one phylogenetic lineage also applies to Africans. One good example you've brought up in the past is the fact that some Africans have a degree of ancestry from Aterians or some other North African 'Mousterian'/MSA population. Usually this is lumped into 'East African' or 'North African', depending on where the individual is sampled. Another example is the very deep East African ancestry West/Central Africans have. In some of DNA Tribes' work you can see that West Africans have large East African ancestry components. Normally you don't see this in normal ancestry tests and West African ancestry of some individuals is often reported as >90% West African. Much of this East African ancestry in West/Central Africans is extremely ancient (~40ky ago) and so you can ask yourself if you can still can still think of that as non-indigenous. Many people would say it's indigenous at that point.
WOW! I can tell you really dug your teeth into this topic more than all of us have. I never thought of bolded. Hell, I think I remember haplogroup A(which was associated with the Aterians) can still be found in some very isolated West Africans! I think I even remember an African-American man carrying an A lineage and it caught headlines. It was a while ago.
And yeah I been seeing many West Africans scoring 100% West African on normal private DNA sites like Ancestry.com.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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If that piques your interest, there is more where that came from. They're working on more African aDNA behind the scenes. This will show that Europe isn't unique in this regard.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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If that piques your interest, there is more where that came from. They're working on more African aDNA behind the scenes. This will show that Europe isn't unique in this regard.
I am indeed curious to the results.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Djehuti
I never heard of the Shluh Berbers. I'm about to do some research on them. Yeah, I dated a Moroccan girl and what I noticed about Northwest Africans especially Moroccans is that they have a very "biracial" appearance. I know this is not backed up by science but that's what I noticed from my personal experiences. I do not know what ethnicity the women in this video is(I'll ask) but I'm trying to get her to join here so we can further discuss her results.
btw these women are beautiful.
Her name seems to be Myriam Cayenne I think I heard of her. Is she Tunisian?
Looks very North African Berber to me. Of course there is variation and diversity in looks across North Africa so it isn't surprising. These are not "Europeans" even though some do look very European. In fact if you look at the word Mulatto it could possibly derive from the term Muladi which was used in Spain to refer to mixed populations of Muslims.... It was both a class of people and a caste. From this would derive the Spanish Casta system which described various mixtures of populations and ultimately became dominant in the Americas for describing populations in Spanish Areas. Eventually the word Mulatto derived from the Spanish. Therefore, these kinds of populations in North Africa are the original "mulattoes" and the reason for the looks that are similar to mixed populations in various parts of the Americas like Puerto Ricans.
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