quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: The "debate" moved on from 5+ years ago. Very few people on internet forums now argue there was large scale migration into Neolithic/Early Dynastic Egypt from West Asia. Most Afrocentrists have also modified their position to realise the Egyptians were Saharan [North] Africans, not Sub-Saharan Africans. My only issue with the latter is that they still call Saharan Africans "black"; the average skin colour of northern Saharan peoples, including modern Egyptians, is too light to be labelled black and living Egyptians do not consider themselves to be black either.
Stop talking about what you think "online consensus" is and make your own thread to discuss real research. We give no fvcks what "consensus" is without data. I honestly can't hold out hope for much data though (not from you guys), as it seems y'all have some sort of reading comprehension problem. STOP derailing this guy's thread and make your OWN thread.
Consensus based on data is this. And it doesn't play into anyone's politics. That's why people like you won't accept it - it doesn't fit your pan-Africanist political agenda.
So basically true negro stereotyping regarding the genetic diversity of black Africans. Let's review how they "debunk" that Kemet was black.
quote:Afrocentrists are wrong to describe the ancient Egyptians as black people (even if "black" is only describing dark brown skin/black pigmentation). This is because there was a gradient of skin color, ranging from a light brown among northern coastal and Nile-Delta Egyptians in Lower Egypt, to a dark brown in Upper Egypt and Nubia.
Except black isn't exclusively dark brown/black. Sub Saharan Africa has colors ranging from light brown to dark.
quote:
The "Black Egyptian hypothesis" was criticized and rejected at UNESCO's Symposium on the Peopling of Ancient Egypt and the Deciphering of the Meroitic Script in Cairo in 1974[34] (published 1978). Afrocentrist C. A. Diop attended this symposium and when asked "what proportion of melanin was sufficient for a man to be classified as belonging to the black race" failed to provide an answer.[35]
Precisely because blacks are NOT just dark brown or black. Blacks can have colors that overlap with other groups It's funny they use contradictory references to "prove" they're not black.
quote:I have encountered arguments that the ancient Egyptians were much 'blacker' than their modern counterparts, owing to the influx of Arabs at the time of the conquest, Caucasian slaves under the Mamlukes, or Turks and French soldiers during the Ottoman period. However, given the size of the Egyptian population against these comparatively minor waves of northern immigrants, as well as the fact that there was continuous immigration and occasional forced deportation of both northern and southern populations into Egypt throughout the pharaonic period, I doubt that the modern population is significantly darker or lighter, or more or less 'African' than their ancient counterparts.
LOL
quote:Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A), we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously.
Luca Pagani. Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians 4 June 2015
quote: “”Afrocentrists claim that Egyptian civilization was a "black" civilization, and this is not accurate [...] Most scholars believe that ancient Egyptians looked pretty much like today’s Egyptians - that is, they were brown, becoming darker as they approached the Sudan (Snowden 1970, 1992; Smedley 1993).[33]
Then those researchers would be engaging in "true negro" stereotypes by denying the biological diversity of Africa. This academically racist behavior has been noted and condemned by academics like Keita. For thousands of years there had been NO Sahara. The Sahara had just started coming back, which forced many populations that made kemet to move towards the Nile in the first place. Its so amazingly stupid that African Americans are called sub saharans despite being centuries removed from Sub Saharan Africa, but let the Sahara come back for centuries and even with a body of water that moves through (and can give them ready access to the people below the Sahara) and whoop! they're not black! Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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Here's the problem with Afroloons quote-mining this:
"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A), we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously."
Note how you cut off what follows:
"The Ethiopian populations showed, as expected, a more variable spectrum of genetic introgression (Figure 1B). Consistent with previous reports,13 the Amhara and Oromo were shown to have around 50% of their genome derived from non-Africans, the introgressed proportion in the Somali and Wolayta amounted to 40%–30%"
So are you now saying Ethiopian and Horn populations are 1/3 to 1/2 Eurasian? This is something you deny in your other posts. Note also Zaharan etc does this same. You will quote Pagani et al for the Egyptians being 80% Eurasian, but not Ethiopians/Horners being up to 50% Eurasian. Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Except black isn't exclusively dark brown/black. Sub Saharan Africa has colors ranging from light brown to dark.
I dispute that claim (since I'm talking population averages, not cherry-picking individuals or looking at atypical variation like only 5% of a Sub-Saharan African tribe have light brown skin), but I'll go along with it for sake of argument: are West Asians and Southern Europeans then black? They have light brown skin shades. That's the double standard you employ.
Africans with light brown skin are black, but not non-Africans with the same/similar pigmentation? Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: Here's the problem with Afroloons quote-mining this:
"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A), we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously."
Note how you cut off what follows:
"The Ethiopian populations showed, as expected, a more variable spectrum of genetic introgression (Figure 1B). Consistent with previous reports,13 the Amhara and Oromo were shown to have around 50% of their genome derived from non-Africans, the introgressed proportion in the Somali and Wolayta amounted to 40%–30%"
So are you now saying Ethiopian and Horn populations are 1/3 to 1/2 Eurasian? This is something you deny in your other posts. Note also Zaharan etc does this same. You will quote Pagani et al for the Egyptians being 80% Eurasian, but not Ethiopians/Horners being up to 50% Eurasian.
It is actually a bit more problematic, what is this Eurasian semantics you folks keep buzzing?
Haplo J1 arose at the Sinai. The population which carries the root of this phylogenetic marker looks physically very similar to these East African ethnic-groups. Logically since it was an early dispersal of genetic drift, into what is now the Arabian Peninsula.
quote:
Colored dots indicate genetic diversity. Each new group outside of Africa represents a sampling of the genetic diversity present in its founder population. The ancestral population in Africa was sufficiently large to build up and retain substantial genetic diversity.
--Brenna M. Henna, L. L. Cavalli-Sforzaa,1, and Marcus W. Feldmanb,2 Edited by C. Owen Lovejoy, Kent State University, Kent, OH, and approved September 25, 2012 (received for review July 19, 2012)
quote: According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect. Similar figure have been suggested for sub-Saharan Africa populations [1]. The antiquity of the east African gene pool could be viewed not only from the perspective of the amount of genetic diversity endowed within it but also by signals of uni-modal distribution in their mitochondrial DNA (Hassan et al., unpublished) usually taken as an indication of populations that have passed through ‘‘recent’’ demographic expansion [33], although in this case, may in fact be considered a sign of extended shared history of in situ evolution where alleles are exchanged between neighboring demes [34].
Figure S1 Neighbor joining (NJ). NJ tree of the world populations based on MT-CO2 sequences. The evolutionary relationship of 171 sequences and evolutionary history was inferred using the Neighbor-Joining method. The optimal tree with the sum of branch length = 0.20401570 is shown. The evolutionary distances were computed using the Maximum Composite Likelihood method and are in the units of the number of base substitutions per site. Codon positions included were 1st+2nd+3rd+Noncoding. All positions containing gaps and missing data were eliminated from the dataset. There were a total of 543 positions in the final dataset. Phylogenetic analyses were conducted in MEGA4. Red dots: east Africa, Blue: Africa, Green: Asia, Yellow: Australia, Pink: Europe and gray: America. (TIF)
Figure S2 Multidimensional Scaling Plot (MDS). The 2nd and 3rd coordinates of an MDS plot of 848 nuclear microsatellite loci from 469 individuals of 24 world populations. MDS uses pairwise IBS data based on the 848 loci generated by PLINK software and plotted using R version 2.15.0. The figure, besides a separate clustering of east Africans, indicates the substantial contribution of Africans and east Africans to the founding of populations of Europe and Asia. (TIF)
Figure S3 Multidimensional Scaling Plot (MDS). The 3rd and 4th coordinates of an MDS plot of 848 Microsatellite loci, across the human genome in 469 individuals from 24 populations from Africa, Asia and Europe. MDS uses pairwise IBS data based on the 848 loci generated by PLINK software and plotted using R version 2.15.0. The central position of east Africans and some other Africans emphasizes the founding role of east African gene pool and the disparate alignment on coordinates along which the world populations were founded including populations of Aftica aligning along the 4th dimension. (TIF)
Figure 4. Multidimensional Scaling Plot (MDS). A. First and second coordinates of an MDS plot of 848 Microsatellite Marshfield data set across the human genome for 24 populations from Africa, Asia and Europe. MDS plot was constructed from pairwise differences FST generated by Arlequin program (Table S3). B. First and second coordinates of an MDS plot of 848 Microsatellite loci, across the human genome in 469 individuals from 24 populations from Africa, Asia and Europe. MDS uses pairwise IBS data based on the 848 loci generated by PLINK software and plotted using R version 2.15.0. East Africans cluster to the left of the plot, while Beja (red cluster in the middle), assumes intermediate position. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0097674.g004
Figure S4 Multidimensional Scaling Plot (MDS). First and second coordinates of an MDS plot based on MT-CO2 data set constructed from pairwise differences FST generated by Arlequin v3.11. Population code as follows: Nara: Nar, Kunama (Kun), Hidarb (Hid), Afar (Afa), Saho (Sah), Bilen (Bil), Tigre (Tgr), Tigrigna (Tig), Rashaida (Rsh), Nilotics (Nil), Beja (Bej), Ethiopians(Eth), Egyptians (Egy), Moroccans (Mor), Southern Africans (Sth), Pygmy (Pyg), Saudi Arabia (Sdi), Asia (Asi), Europe (Eur), Native Americans (NA), Australians (Ast), Nubians (Nub), Nuba (Nba) (TIF)
--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.
The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size
PLoS One. 2014; 9(5): e97674. Published online 2014 May 20. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0097674
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Except black isn't exclusively dark brown/black. Sub Saharan Africa has colors ranging from light brown to dark.
I dispute that claim (since I'm talking population averages, not cherry-picking individuals or looking at atypical variation like only 5% of a Sub-Saharan African tribe have light brown skin), but I'll go along with it for sake of argument: are West Asians and Southern Europeans then black? They have light brown skin shades. That's the double standard you employ.
Africans with light brown skin are black, but not non-Africans with the same/similar pigmentation?
You dispute that claim because of your cherry picking. And you even came up with your own statistical facts, of 5%.
Segments of populations can have growth or decrease, which will affect the demographic of that particular group.
See, everything you type is irrational all.
quote: Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome.
The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n = 112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n = 113). This pattern confirms that the La Braña 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.
--Carles Lalueza-Fox
Nature 507, 225–228 (13 March 2014) doi:10.1038/nature12960
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Except black isn't exclusively dark brown/black. Sub Saharan Africa has colors ranging from light brown to dark.
I dispute that claim (since I'm talking population averages, not cherry-picking individuals or looking at atypical variation like only 5% of a Sub-Saharan African tribe have light brown skin), but I'll go along with it for sake of argument: are West Asians and Southern Europeans then black? They have light brown skin shades. That's the double standard you employ.
you're erroneously concluding African identity or "blackness" is strictly determined by skin tone. Race cannot feasibly be determined strictly by skin tones. West Asians with dark skin are often still genetically tied to other Asians and physically located in Asia. The issue is context. AE were culturally and genetically connected to the rest of Africa. They were a people that lived in Africa. That coupled with the fact their skin colors encompassed what's been proven to be possible within Africa (without non Africans) demonstrates they were an indigenous African people. The irony of this is that when it comes to Africans everything is expected to be monolithic under the guise of discussing "averages." Tribes, clans, and regions cannot have local physical variation that contrasts from an "average" or stereotypical image. If they do they risk the insistence that they can't be "African."
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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Guys It's like 2017 already, debating the skin tones of the ancient kemetians with Euro-loons is old and over, the genetic , linguistic and cultural evidence put that to rest.
Talk of Eurasian genetic influence ?? well it's possible and indeed probable to find trace amount of Eurasian genetic influence anywhere in Africa, all it would take is for a distant ancestor to pass on a particular marker, that spreads, however that may or may not have any relevance to what those Eurasian ancestors looked like as some of them would be as Black as my own face. Current studies on Ancient Egypt- UCLA scholars archive
Fellas this is no longer debatable outside pop culture or attention seeking leftover folks trolling.
Oh one more thing, remember how they used to say to us..leave Egypt alone, look at "Nubia"?? well now that we did and found that folks on this part of the Nile did in fact kicked off Nile Valley civilization, some are trying to slyly shift us from "Nubia" to some here else. That Ethiopians today may have some links adjacent to the folks across the Red Sea, I'd say so what?? as those links are bidirectional starting from Africa..and they willfully used the name Ethiopia aka Black faced people for their nation's title, they even had at one point the Black Cross nurses or emergency care givers as opposed to Red Cross.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Wouldn't have made the thread but these guys were derailing other topics that weren't even talking about race.
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Physical anthropology + population genetics is based on means/averages as central tendencies giving the typical variation. Otherwise it would be impossible to compare and make predictions if you focused on outliers as atypical variation.
There are no Sub-Saharan African populations with light brown skin. Like I said, I'm talking populations (as averages), not individuals.
Even look at the Talbot data for all Igbo tribes; none of them have a high/common frequency of light brown skin, so the average Igbo is not going to be light brown. The person who put together those diagrams on windows paint (Zaharan) is a complete retard. He's meant to be a "veteran" on this forum but he doesn't understand basics like probability distribution.
My point is that the average ancient Egyptian was lighter skinned than Nubians: the former distinguished themselves to the latter based on their skin complexion (see Great Hymn to Aten). How could Egyptians be black if they did this?
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: Here's the problem with Afroloons quote-mining this:
"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A), we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously."
Note how you cut off what follows:
"The Ethiopian populations showed, as expected, a more variable spectrum of genetic introgression (Figure 1B). Consistent with previous reports,13 the Amhara and Oromo were shown to have around 50% of their genome derived from non-Africans, the introgressed proportion in the Somali and Wolayta amounted to 40%–30%"
So are you now saying Ethiopian and Horn populations are 1/3 to 1/2 Eurasian? This is something you deny in your other posts. Note also Zaharan etc does this same. You will quote Pagani et al for the Egyptians being 80% Eurasian, but not Ethiopians/Horners being up to 50% Eurasian.
quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: There are no Sub-Saharan African populations with light brown skin. Like I said, I'm talking populations (as averages), not individuals.
My point is that the average ancient Egyptian was lighter skinned than Nubians: the former distinguished themselves to the latter based on their skin complexion (see Great Hymn to Aten). How could Egyptians be black if they did this?
The Ju Hoan khoisan skin tone is generally "Light" compared to Other Sub Saharan Africans. It has a golden tone that is VERY typical.
I chose this SPECIFIC Khoisan population for an example based on the Basal position on the human tree and lack of Eurasian affinity:
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Since this conversation got started over color conventions in ancient Egyptian art, I wonder what posters here make of various quilts from Dahomey, wherein the Dahomeans portray themselves as a lighter, more reddish color than other West Africans (who are jet black).
I am not aware of any evidence that the people of Dahomey really would have had reddish skin lighter than that of other West Africans. It's an artistic convention that I presume came out to distinguish themselves from other African groups. Who's to say ancient Egyptian artists weren't doing the same thing in their paintings?
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Its so amazingly stupid that African Americans are called sub saharans despite being centuries removed from Sub Saharan Africa,
If you had said "Its so amazingly stupid that so called 'African Americans' are called Africans despite being centuries removed from Africa, that would be one thing an opinion about an identifying term with a certain logic to it, but your comment doesn't make sense. If one is talking about "Sub Saharan Africa" the other half to that would be North African or Saharan African So if Sub Saharans migrated or were taken to America centuries ago that would not transform their Sub Saharan Africaness to North Africaness African Americans are from all over Africa but primarily from West Africa. A similarly not making sense statement would be "Its so amazingly stupid that so called 'African Americans' are called West Africans despite being centuries removed from Africa" The logic doesn't work.
Somebody could argue that "Blacks" in America are no longer African because they have been cut off form African culture for centuries and have their own culture. But one could not argue that having been out of Africa for several hundred years would change their affiliation to a region in Africa, Sub Saharan, Saharan, West, North, East ,South etc
Of course culture is not biology and biology takes thousands of years to significantly change not hundreds.
"Black" is an ambiguous social construct term therefore it not solid to take a position on as an absolute.
One could say that all the people from the West, South, East and North are all Africans but Cass Connor Moon argues that similarly Chinese and Europeans are on the same continent -yet are clearly quite different.
The answer to this is get away from geographic terms and social construct terms "black" "brown" "white" "red" and look at the DNA and physical morphology. E1b1a for instance
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If you had said "Its so amazingly stupid that so called 'African Americans' are called Africans despite being centuries removed from Africa, that would be one thing an opinion about an identifying term with a certain logic to it, but your comment doesn't make sense. If one is talking about "Sub Saharan Africa" the other half to that would be North African or Saharan African So if Sub Saharans migrated or were taken to America centuries ago that would not transform their Sub Saharan Africaness to North Africaness African Americans are from all over Africa but primarily from West Africa. A similarly not making sense statement would be "Its so amazingly stupid that so called 'African Americans' are called West Africans despite being centuries removed from Africa" The logic doesn't work.
Somebody could argue that "Blacks" in America are no longer African because they have been cut off form African culture for centuries and have their own culture. But one could not argue that having been out of Africa for several hundred years would change their affiliation to a region in Africa, Sub Saharan, Saharan, West, North, East ,South etc
Of course culture is not biology and biology takes thousands of years to significantly change not hundreds.
"Black" is an ambiguous social construct term therefore it not solid to take a position on as an absolute.
One could say that all the people from the West, South, East and North are all Africans but Cass Connor Moon argues that similarly Chinese and Europeans are on the same continent -yet are clearly quite different.
The answer to this is get away from geographic terms and social construct terms "black" "brown" "white" "red" and look at the DNA and physical morphology. E1b1a for instance
African Americans are not "African" in a geographic sense, but the culture and biology still connects to people that are mostly IN Africa. AA have a unique culture, but that culture is still largely based from Africa. That's kinda going off point tho. What I meant was that African Americans are considered genetically and biologically connected to sub saharan African people, even though they've been separated from that location for centuries. But Egypt which was in Africa, and still had access to African people below the Sahara (via the nile), they are considered biologically unrelated to the rest of Africa by the time Egyptian civilization started. Why? because of centuries of supposed isolation from lands south of the Sahara.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: The Ju Hoan khoisan skin tone is generally "Light" compared to Other Sub Saharan Africans. It has a golden tone that is VERY typical.
Khoisan tribes score 40-50% on a reflectance spectroscopter (685 nm), but yes, they are lighter skinned than other Sub-Saharan groups who fall between 20-40%. My argument though is the ancient Egyptians would match modern groups at their latitude at 50-60% such as Berber groups, while Europeans are 60-70% and are obviously lighter skinned than ancient Egyptians.
The Berber population in the above study score 57-59%, i.e. a light brown/bronze colour, and this is how Lower Egyptians would have looked in my view.
The Upper Egyptians would have been a darker brown though, but it doesn't approach 'black' until Sudan:
"On the average, between the Delta in northern Egypt and the Sudan of the Upper Nile, skin color tends to darken from light brown to what appears to the eye as bluish black." - Trigger, B. [1978]. “Nubian, Negro, Black, Nilotic?”. Wenig, Steffen (ed.). In: Africa in Antiquity: The Arts of Ancient Nubia and the Sudan. Brooklyn Museum, New York.
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quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: There are no Sub-Saharan African populations with light brown skin.
LOL Good grief. You dumb box of rocks.
quote:
Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations.
Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation.
For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions.
This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between within-population diversity and distance from the equator.
Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.
quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: The Berber population in the above study score 57-59%, i.e. a light brown/bronze colour, and this is how Lower Egyptians would have looked in my view.
Your view / alternative fact is completely irrelevant.
Melanin Dosage Tests: Ancient Egyptians
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
-- A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2 Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13 " Materials and Methods
quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: The Berber population in the above study score 57-59%, i.e. a light brown/bronze colour, and this is how Lower Egyptians would have looked in my view.
quote: In this study we analyzed 295 unrelated Berber-speaking men from northern, central, and southern Morocco to characterize frequency of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and to refine the phylogeny of its subclades: E1b1b1b1-M107, E1b1b1b2-M183, and E1b1b1b2a-M165. For this purpose, we typed four biallelic polymorphisms: M81, M107, M183, and M165. A large majority of the Berber-speaking male lineages belonged to the Y-chromosomal E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup. The frequency ranged from 79.1% to 98.5% in all localities sampled. E1b1b1b2-M183 was the most dominant subclade in our samples, ranging from 65.1% to 83.1%. In contrast, the E1b1b1b1-M107 and E1b1b1b2a-M165 subclades were not found in our samples. Our results suggest a predominance of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup among Moroccan Berber-speaking males with a decreasing gradient from south to north. The most prevalent subclade in this haplogroup was E1b1b1b2-M183, for which diffferences among these three groups were statistically significant between central and southern groups.
--Reguig A1, Harich N2, Barakat A1, Rouba H1.
Hum Biol. 2014 Spring;86(2):105-12.
Phylogeography of E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and analysis of its subclades in Morocco.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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I usually try not to get involved with these types off discussions but...
quote: My argument though is the ancient Egyptians would match modern groups at their latitude at 50-60% such as Berber groups
The Upper Egyptians would have been a darker brown though, but it doesn't approach 'black' until Sudan
Based on what?
Maghrebs and amazigh share share major genes directly related to pigment with europeans btw. what are you basing any of this on? Latitude may play a role in skin color variation but it doesn't determine your skin color. The points are virtually baseless as for every tit, theirs a tat. ...and I know you know this already.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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I will say this thread provides a textbook example of why terms like "black" can cause problems in these discussions. People have different ideas of what it means, and those who want to include or exclude certain populations will shift its defining goalposts to suit their own ends. For example, people who don't want ancient Egyptians to be called "black" will insist that only the darkest African populations, or maybe those with broad West or Central African features, will qualify as "black", and there isn't really anything you can do to change their minds. So these discussions have become a waste of time.
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: I will say this thread provides a textbook example of why terms like "black" can cause problems in these discussions. People have different ideas of what it means, and those who want to include or exclude certain populations will shift its defining goalposts to suit their own ends. For example, people who don't want ancient Egyptians to be called "black" will insist that only the darkest African populations, or maybe those with broad West or Central African features, will qualify as "black", and there isn't really anything you can do to change their minds. So these discussions have become a waste of time.
The only problem is when loonies claim that black means a stereotype and quirky ideas about African populations and ethnic groups.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: The Ju Hoan khoisan skin tone is generally "Light" compared to Other Sub Saharan Africans. It has a golden tone that is VERY typical.
Khoisan tribes score 40-50% on a reflectance spectroscopter (685 nm), but yes, they are lighter skinned than other Sub-Saharan groups who fall between 20-40%. My argument though is the ancient Egyptians would match modern groups at their latitude at 50-60% such as Berber groups, while Europeans are 60-70% and are obviously lighter skinned than ancient Egyptians.
The Upper Egyptians would have been a darker brown though, but it doesn't approach 'black' until Sudan:
"On the average, between the Delta in northern Egypt and the Sudan of the Upper Nile, skin color tends to darken from light brown to what appears to the eye as bluish black." - Trigger, B. [1978]. “Nubian, Negro, Black, Nilotic?”. Wenig, Steffen (ed.). In: Africa in Antiquity: The Arts of Ancient Nubia and the Sudan. Brooklyn Museum, New York.
You have to do some critical thinking and BE CONSISTENT: How are you DEFINING Black? As an African American NOT of full African Ancestry Am I Black? Are those Khoisan "Black" ?
"The Upper Egyptians would have been a darker brown though," No, the Lower Egyptians would be been lighter. The Upper Egyptians formed the based on the people in the Region and should be used as the aboriginal yardstick. Now you DO KNOW that the VAST majority of the population in ancient times lived in the Southern Part of the country?
In all these years of Euroclowness, Yall can never define "Black" in a way that Excludes Egyptians while at the same time being consistent when dealing with other populations in Africa. Your definition is always something you made up Yourself...and is quite plastic. Sometimes its based on features, sometimes not...sometimes is location...some times not. Sometimes skin tone and ancestry, sometimes not....yall just keep changing the goal post because in yall mind you KNOW its quite hard to remove a population from a description that is mostly based on two things : Skin color and location.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I usually try not to get involved with these types off discussions but...
quote: My argument though is the ancient Egyptians would match modern groups at their latitude at 50-60% such as Berber groups
The Upper Egyptians would have been a darker brown though, but it doesn't approach 'black' until Sudan
Based on what?
Maghrebs and amazigh share share major genes directly related to pigment with europeans btw. what are you basing any of this on? Latitude may play a role in skin color variation but it doesn't determine your skin color. The points are virtually baseless as for every tit, theirs a tat. ...and I know you know this already.
I'm basing it on living non-Egyptian populations at the same latitude and these peoples closely resembled their ancestors in ancient times phenotypically, including skin colour. So why is it they virtually all score as a mean 50-60% on a reflectance spectroscopter (685 nm)? Why should ancient Egyptians be different?
Egypt is the same latitude as Libya, Algeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, northern India, Nepal, and southern China. Populations at that latitude have 50-60% skin reflectance -- data is in Jablonski & Chaplin (2000).
Algeria (Aures): 58.05 Libya (Cyrenaica): 53.50 China (Southern): 59.17 Nepal: 50.42 Pakistan: 54.24 India (Northern): 53.26 Saudi Arabia: 52.50
If I'm wrong, then someone would need to explain why Egyptians are a "special case" in reflectance spectroscopy. Furthermore, we have ancient accounts such as Strabo who likened the skin colour of the ancient Egyptians to northern Indians.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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The vast majority of people do not regard the first two rows of those photos to be black and some would also dispute the third and fourth rows, only the 5th and 6th are less/not ambiguous. In fact if you went up to these people in the first two rows of photos and called them "black" they would probably be insulted.
This afrolunacy of calling anyone with a brown skin shade (even light brown) "black" has no basis in reality. Your own communities would not except the women and boy in the first photo row as "black" and you even know this.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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The vast majority of people do not regard the first two rows of those photos to be black and some would also dispute the third and fourth rows, only the 5th and 6th are less/not ambiguous. In fact if you went up to these people in the first two rows of photos and called them "black" they would probably be insulted.
This afrolunacy of calling anyone with a brown skin shade (even light brown) "black" has no basis in reality. Your own communities would not except the women and boy in the first photo row as "black" and you even know this.
You are a LUNATIC. You are DELUSIONAL. Those very same people will tell you they are BLACK.
Tell, loony what community is it you are referring at? Show me how bright you are.
This co-clown passed as black for years, however this is what "many" North African women look like, including the "hair texture".
Now, back to reality:
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I usually try not to get involved with these types off discussions but...
quote: My argument though is the ancient Egyptians would match modern groups at their latitude at 50-60% such as Berber groups
The Upper Egyptians would have been a darker brown though, but it doesn't approach 'black' until Sudan
Based on what?
Maghrebs and amazigh share share major genes directly related to pigment with europeans btw. what are you basing any of this on? Latitude may play a role in skin color variation but it doesn't determine your skin color. The points are virtually baseless as for every tit, theirs a tat. ...and I know you know this already.
I'm basing it on living non-Egyptian populations at the same latitude and these peoples closely resembled their ancestors in ancient times phenotypically, including skin colour. So why is it they virtually all score as a mean 50-60% on a reflectance spectroscopter (685 nm)? Why should ancient Egyptians be different?
Egypt is the same latitude as Libya, Algeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, northern India, Nepal, and southern China. Populations at that latitude have 50-60% skin reflectance -- data is in Jablonski & Chaplin (2000).
Algeria (Aures): 58.05 Libya (Cyrenaica): 53.50 China (Southern): 59.17 Nepal: 50.42 Pakistan: 54.24 India (Northern): 53.26 Saudi Arabia: 52.50
If I'm wrong, then someone would need to explain why Egyptians are a "special case" in reflectance spectroscopy. Furthermore, we have ancient accounts such as Strabo who likened the skin colour of the ancient Egyptians to northern Indians.
Dumbass, it doesn't matter, the melanin dosage test tells what we are dealing with.
"Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues"
Don't ignore it, embrace it.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: The vast majority of people do not regard the first two rows of those photos to be black and some would also dispute the third and fourth rows, only the 5th and 6th are less/not ambiguous. In fact if you went up to these people in the first two rows of photos and called them "black" they would probably be insulted.
This afrolunacy of calling anyone with a brown skin shade (even light brown) "black" has no basis in reality. Your own communities would not except the women and boy in the first photo row as "black" and you even know this.
Then the vast majority of people would be unaware of African biodiversity. Generally, there is the erroneously thought that light skin in Africans is only the result of mixing. This is the only REAL reason why the skin of the Egyptians is really still a conversation. Fools that don't understand Africans can produce those pigments without the help of outsiders try to decide who is and isn't really African based on limited knowledge. Even if the majority thought this way, they would be wrong. Light skinned people can still be indigenous and biologically connected to other Africans.
I dunno why you would say blacks cannot accept light skin people though. Black people have been calling people with light skin black for centuries. Red Igbo which evolved to the term red/yellow bone referred to the red to yellow skin tones of people who were classified as black.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
^ I have been to Egypt, I know how they think and what they feel like. At times it was difficult, since they shunned away white (European friends) and treaded me different from them.
This JoshuaConnerMoon is nothing but a clown.
In the North they considered me to be from Saudi Arabia, in the South some considered me to be from East Africa.
This JoshuaConnerMoon thinks I am Africa American. lol
But I can tell for sure that the people in the upper rows certainly will be considered black in black communities in America. Who does JoshuaConnerMoon think he is?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Egyptians hate blacks. Just google racism in Egypt. Most the racism is directed at Sudanese who have darker skin; they're looked down upon in Egyptian society. Egyptians classify Sudanese as blacks, but not themselves because they're lighter brown skinned.
"Sudanese and Nubian people living in Egypt told al-Araby about their experiences in the country and the kind of treatment they were subjected to based on the colour of their skin.
"In the street, people call you different names if you are black, like chocalata or samara," Mamado Hawary, a Sudanese-Egyptian living in Cairo, told al-Araby al-Jadeed."
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: The Ju Hoan khoisan skin tone is generally "Light" compared to Other Sub Saharan Africans. It has a golden tone that is VERY typical.
Khoisan tribes score 40-50% on a reflectance spectroscopter (685 nm), but yes, they are lighter skinned than other Sub-Saharan groups who fall between 20-40%. My argument though is the ancient Egyptians would match modern groups at their latitude at 50-60% such as Berber groups, while Europeans are 60-70% and are obviously lighter skinned than ancient Egyptians.
The Upper Egyptians would have been a darker brown though, but it doesn't approach 'black' until Sudan:
"On the average, between the Delta in northern Egypt and the Sudan of the Upper Nile, skin color tends to darken from light brown to what appears to the eye as bluish black." - Trigger, B. [1978]. “Nubian, Negro, Black, Nilotic?”. Wenig, Steffen (ed.). In: Africa in Antiquity: The Arts of Ancient Nubia and the Sudan. Brooklyn Museum, New York.
You have to do some critical thinking and BE CONSISTENT: How are you DEFINING Black? As an African American NOT of full African Ancestry Am I Black? Are those Khoisan "Black" ?
"The Upper Egyptians would have been a darker brown though," No, the Lower Egyptians would be been lighter. The Upper Egyptians formed the based on the people in the Region and should be used as the aboriginal yardstick. Now you DO KNOW that the VAST majority of the population in ancient times lived in the Southern Part of the country?
In all these years of Euroclowness, Yall can never define "Black" in a way that Excludes Egyptians while at the same time being consistent when dealing with other populations in Africa. Your definition is always something you made up Yourself...and is quite plastic. Sometimes its based on features, sometimes not...sometimes is location...some times not. Sometimes skin tone and ancestry, sometimes not....yall just keep changing the goal post because in yall mind you KNOW its quite hard to remove a population from a description that is mostly based on two things : Skin color and location.
All populations within the tropics score under 50% on a reflectance spectrophotometer (685 nm). So black would be someone who's skin reflects under 50% of visible light; this is the most objective definition, i.e. skin colour is measured by the percentages of the different wavelengths of light reflected. Modern Egyptians like other North Africans (Libyans, Algerians) score above 50% because they're at a higher latitude. And modern Egyptians are more or less the same complexion as the ancients, there's no evidence Egyptians significantly skin lightened. We have ancient Greek descriptions of the Egyptians over 2000 years ago as having the same skin colour as northern Indians.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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posted
....2000 years ago, north-west Indians weren't as differentiated as they are now. Problem here is that you don't really fundamentally understand the concepts you present. There are conflicting elements that you cannot see because of it. For instance, of the 7 groups you've listed 6 have shown evidence for an event resulting in them having high % of pigment related mutations.
Algeria (Aures): 58.05 Libya (Cyrenaica): 53.50 China (Southern): 59.17 Nepal: 50.42 Pakistan: 54.24 India (Northern): 53.26 Saudi Arabia: 52.50
The bolded groups for instance, all carry mutations that diverged from the same region, and they share them with Europeans.
There are many possible reasons for east Asian depigmentation, but in terms of melanin index there are chinese populations that fall into the range of African pigmentation. In fact, only Europeans have a range of pigmentation that does not overlap with the SSafrican diaspora.
If you're going to use nina jablonski n co, please apply context. 17 years ago the mechanisms behind pigmentation weren't as explored. When looking at native populations globally, there were too many inconsistencies genotypically and phenotypically to definitively assign any characteristic to a latitudinal cline. India for instance, experienced recent selection in the north west region for lighter skin. Other areas in India including the north east ironically have a very dynamic range in skin color.
This is probably why we have ancient Greeks saying that Indians (Not North!) back then where generally the same color or darker than Aethiopians.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: All populations within the tropics score under 50% on a reflectance spectrophotometer (685 nm). So black would be someone who's skin reflects under 50% of visible light; this is the most objective definition, i.e. skin colour is measured by the percentages of the different wavelengths of light reflected. Modern Egyptians like other North Africans (Libyans, Algerians) score above 50% because they're at a higher latitude.
So if populations within the tropics who score under 50% on a reflectance spectrophotometer are black that means blacks have the whole 0-50% even though 0 is black and anything higher than that is technically "brown"
That means if all those shades of brown are black then populations who score under 51% or more on a reflectance spectrophotometer are white, correct?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: lol, you're lying.
Egyptians hate blacks. Just google racism in Egypt. Most the racism is directed at Sudanese who have darker skin; they're looked down upon in Egyptian society. Egyptians classify Sudanese as blacks, but not themselves because they're lighter brown skinned.
"Sudanese and Nubian people living in Egypt told al-Araby about their experiences in the country and the kind of treatment they were subjected to based on the colour of their skin.
"In the street, people call you different names if you are black, like chocalata or samara," Mamado Hawary, a Sudanese-Egyptian living in Cairo, told al-Araby al-Jadeed."
LOL You are the one who is lying, your response is a typical and obvious one, VERY PREDICTABLE. However, the comment section counteracts what you're trying to propel.
Besides all this, Cairo is a place with lots of immigrants who are not from Africa, or natively African. Mortada Mansour is least likely a descendant of ancient Egyptians. This subject is about that, remember loon, it is specifically about people like in the photo collage, not about some random individuals who confuse themselves for a primary for ancient Egyptians, and who are prejudice against darker skinned people.
Since you are slow (retarded), I will repeat it for you a few times:
"Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues"
"Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues"
"Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues"
"Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues"
And I am still waiting, from which community I am supposed to be?
quote:"…sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans."
--Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation.( Routledge. p. 52-60)(2005)
quote:According to this recent study modern Egyptians are 80% non-African and 20% African. And the non-African admixtures are dated to around 750 years ago. Well, after the foundation of Ancient Egypt or the precursor cultures (Badarians, Tasians, Nabta Playa, etc).
"Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A), we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously."
--Luca Pagan et al.
Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians
quote: “The Late Period is often singled out as the time when mass immigration into Egypt altered the character of the country”
--A Companion to Ancient History Edited by Andrew Erskine (2009)
quote:“With the passage of time, each wave of new immigrants has assimilated into the local mix of peoples , making modern Egypt a combination of Libyans, Nubians, Syrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Greeks, Italians, and Armenians, along with the descendants of the people of ancient Egypt.”
--From A Brief History of Egypt by Jr. Goldschmidt Arthur (2007)
quote: "It is nonetheless probable that settlements were far more dispersed than they were in Upper Egypt, that overall population density was significantly lower, and that the northernmost one-third of the Delta was ALMOST UNDERPOPULATED in Old Kingdom times. In effect, a considerable body of information can be marshalled to show that the Delta was UNDERDEVELOPED and that internal colonization continued for some three millennia, until the late Ptolemaic era."
quote:Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon: lol, you're lying.
Egyptians hate blacks. Just google racism in Egypt. Most the racism is directed at Sudanese who have darker skin; they're looked down upon in Egyptian society. Egyptians classify Sudanese as blacks, but not themselves because they're lighter brown skinned.
"Sudanese and Nubian people living in Egypt told al-Araby about their experiences in the country and the kind of treatment they were subjected to based on the colour of their skin.
"In the street, people call you different names if you are black, like chocalata or samara," Mamado Hawary, a Sudanese-Egyptian living in Cairo, told al-Araby al-Jadeed."
Not to make things even more complicated for you than they already are, but let's reveal this dirty little secret:
quote: Arabs, however, have their own misplaced bigotry toward darker-skinned people – even of their own ethnicity. The issue of Arab and African identity is still a sad reality even though lots of Arabs with darker skin live all over the Arab world, including Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf states. But this could be considered more geographic bigotry than racism. In the US, 9/11 changed everything, including the complexity of skin colour and racism in the Arab American community – racial profiling and discrimination has risen substantially as has the assaults on Arabs and Muslims.
The point is the Anglo-idiot is gravely mistaken if he thinks he can white-wash Southwest Asia, even his hero Carleton Coon spoke of black types in the region though obviously he did not consider them "negro" but either "Mediterranean" or "Veddoid". Both labels by the way have been used to describe ancient or prehistoric North Africans of the Nile Valley.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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