posted
I love researching about about the Moorish history. Behind Sahelian West African history it is my second my favroite African history to discuss.
Anyhow, I know we are ALL getting tired of discussing the Berbers/North Africans on here with all these recent topics. But me being into Moorish history something been on my mind that I just HAVE to have discussed. Its been itching me a lot a lot.
As we may know there was a rather long discussion on on dark skinned Berbers not necessary being "pure" Berbers and I agree. However, what I notice on here is that when it comes to discussions on Berbers we never look at Berbers from the medieval period...
The reason why I say this is because from an HISTORIC(not genetic) viewpoint Berbers that were labeled the "Moors" such as the Sanhaja Zanata, Lamtuna, Massufa, Gazula, Masmuda and Katuma Berbers were all described as "black" or even "negro."
The Sanhaja who were the ones who founded Morocco.
And when we get to the Masmuda Berbers they were the ones who made up the overwhelming majority of the Fatimid empire's infantry.
quote:Fatimid infantry included "sudani or 'black' African and even Masmuda Berbers from the western Sahara ..."
- See David Nicholle's Richard the Lionheart, Saladin and the Struggle for Jeruselam- David Nicolle
- Terrence Wise, The Wars of the Crusades, 1096-1291, 1974, pp 52
quote:Coat of Arms of Sardinia. As with the heraldry of families named with variants of Mori or Moor, several countries in Europe have flags and coat of arms with the heads of Moors on them. Military historian, Yaacov Lev in the article , “Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt” (1987) wrote of Nasir Khusroes of the 11th century who speaks of the "20,000" Masmuda men that made up part of the Fatimid troops in Egypt in his time saying, “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords”
(from International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365).
13th c. A.D.--Abu Shama refers to the Masmuda as "blacks" in his Kitab al-Ravdatayn (B. Lewis, Islam: Religion and Society, 2; 1974, p. 217)
quote: The Masmuda or Masamida Berbers controlled the entirety of the western part of Maghreb or North West Africa between western Algeria and Morocco until the coming of another black population known as the Zanata Berbers of Botr, or El Abter stock. They also maintained power in many towns of Spain.
"Kel Owey girl of the Imakitan Tuareg" A Kel Owey girl, member of the Imakitan Tuaregs (formerly called Ikitamen) now located in Niger and are known in Arab texts as the KITAMA or KUTAMA Berbers and anciently as the "Mauri" or "Ethiopian" colored people called Uacutameni, Micatateni or Mactunia manus. Centuries ago, the "Kutama branch of the Berbers inhabited the region of Little Kabylia" in Northern Algeria.
See UNESCO's Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, Ivan Hrbek et al., 1992, p. 164.
Masmuda Berbers:
Then we have this... 11th c. A.D.--Ibn Butlan, Byzantine Christian physician of Iraq wrote,
quote:“The Berber women are from the Island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children.”
Gender and Sexuality in the Middle Ages by Martha A. Brozyna, 2005 p. 303.
But anyways some more...
quote:“The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..."
-written by Isidore of Seville in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, translation by Steven A. Barney, published 2007. p. 386. St. Isidore
6th c. A.D.--Corippus, a Byzantine in Book I, 245 of Johannidus, Book 1, 245, speaking of Moors in the area of North Africa who he felt had "faces of a horrible black color" stated, “Maura videbatur facies, nigro colore horrida” (Michell, G.B. (1903, Jan.). The Berbers. Journal of the Royal African Society, 2(6), (pp. 161-194). He also refers to some Moorish captives as "black as crows."
I have even more. But anyways we have mediveal sources describing the Moors(Berbers) as mostly "black" to a point that they are as black as crows. Once again I am going by a historic viewpoint.
But the big question I have is were these Berber Moors really just intermediate West Africans? Since what has been stated recently is that most "black" Berbers seem to have admixture from West Africans. So were most of the Moors really just Berbers admixed with West Africans?
But thats not the biggest question I have. The bigger one is that were there two types of Berber groups back then? For example you had your Sahel/Saharan Berber nomadic Berbers who lived near West Africans and then you had your Maghrebi Berbers who were isolated in the mountains. The Saharan ones were the ones described by the Arabs/Europeans as very dark while the Maghrebi ones were a "yellowish" or Khoisan like complexion that resembled something like this.
But anyways in my honest opinion I think those Saharan Berbers are the ones when we think of the "Moors" and were the ones who not only invaded Iberia but "reconquered" Northwest Africa including those isolated Maghrebi Berbers.
I mean the Sanhaja Berbers based on this interesting source that Ish posted founded Morocco. "The history of the people of Sanhaja Berber and Arab blood who inhabit Western Sahara goes back hundreds of years. In the XIth century, a confederation of tribes, the "veiled Sanhaja", formed the Almoravid State. The Almoravids were pious Sanhaja marabouts , who left the Sahara to go north where they conquered Morocco. Then there was a split; one faction returned south to the desert while the other crossed the Mediterranean, invaded Andalusia, settling in large parts of Spain, as well a in the present Maghreb. They founded Marrakesh and other centres and there was a great flowering of culture during their reign. However they lost contact with the country of their origin and their former way of life." http://www.arso.org/05-1.htm
The Sanhaja who are said to come from the Senegal river... So again were the "Moors" those Saharan Berbers with West African admixture? Because I always use to see them as "pure" Berbers until recently.
I would really like to hear Ish, Swenets, Djehuti and Jaris opinions on this.
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Yeah, I've seen this doc(good btw) and this is where my theory kinda started. Because in it they exactly say Saharan Berbers migrated North and conquered the Maghrebi Berbers who lived in the mountains.
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posted
In the recent Carthage thread we talked about how the Iron Age Algerian and Carthaginian sample included crania that resemble West African groups AND crania that resemble Nile Valley groups. Remnants of the original Berber nation might still have been there in medieval times. Perhaps as mixed populations. My comments on the strong correlation between dark skin and West African ancestry in the Maghreb mainly applies to living Berbers. We don't know what happened in the Maghreb in between the Iron Age and today.
Also see my comments throughout the thread below. For instance:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Amazing how northwest Africa seems to have undergone all these epic losses of diversity right under our noses. These seem to be demographic events that took place when people in the Mediterranean basin were literate. But we have no written records of this. Only thing we have is evidence that people all over the Maghreb are much closer linguistically and genetically than they should be.
posted
Lots of missing linguistic diversity in the Berber family as the modern day linguistic diversity coalesces to some point slightly before the common era.
quote:Berber languages constitute a fairly homogenous language group (many scholars, e.g. Chaker 1995: 9, even prefer to speak of a single Berber language). As linguistic diversity in a language group tends to increase with time, one may assume that the earliest ancestor of the Berber languages is not that far away in time. Several scholars have suggested that the level of diversity inside Berber is similar to that inside the Germanic or the Romance language groups. If diversification and time depth were to correlate in the same way in these European language groups as in Berber, this would imply a time depth of about 2000–2500 years only (Louali and Philippson 2004).
J. M. Dugoujon et al., in "The Berber and the Berbers: Genetic and linguistic diversities" (in F. D'Errico and J. M. Hombert, eds.,_Becoming eloquent: Advances in the emergence of language, human cognition, and modern cultures_, Philadelphia: John Benjamins, 2009, 125-6.)
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BlessedbyHorus, let's not forget even the openly racist Carleton Coon considered the Shluh Berber man of Morocco below to be an indigenous "small brown Mediterranean type".
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Plate 20. THE NEGROID PERIPHERY OF THE MEDITERRANEAN RACE
Negroes with small amounts of Mediterranean blood. In the deserts and highlands of Ethiopia, Eritrea, and the Somalilands is found a con- centration of several related Mediterranean types, mixed in varying degrees with negroes. To the west these partial whites border on Sudanese negroes; to the southwest the partially Hamitic tribes of Kenya and Uganda form art extension of the peripheral Mediterranean racial area. To the north, the Beja-Bisharin group of Hamitic-speaking nomads connect the East African Hamitic-speaking peoples with their wholly white Egyptian and Berber relatives of North Africa.
FIG. 1 (2 views). A Somali from the tribe of Mahmud Grade, British Somaliland. This Somali represents the closest approximation to a white man found among his people. The extreme narrowness of his head and face, the straight nasal profile, and the prominence of his chin, mark him as less negroid than many of his fellows. At the same time his skin is nearly black, his hair curly but not frizzly. The type to which this So- mali belongs is ancient in East Africa, as shown by the excavations of Leakey in Kenya. It is a specialized, locally differentiated Mediterranean racial form.
FIG. 2 (2 views). Closer to the standard Mediterranean type of Arabia and North Africa is this senile Agau, a member of a fast diminishing group of Hamitic-speaking aborigines in the kingdom of Gojjam in northern Ethiopia. Although his skin is dark, his hair is nearly straight, and his measurements as well as his cranial and facial fea- tures are purely or almost purely Mediterranean. He shows no visible signs of negroid admixture, although from a purely genetic standpoint some must be present.
FIG. 3 (2 views). This individual is a tall, slender Semitic-speaking Ethiopian from the kingdom of Shoa. Except for his hair form he is essentially white and Mediter- ranean. His skin is a sallow yellowish, of a hue often seen among attenuated negro- white hybrids in America.
FIG.4 (2 views). A Hamitic-speaking Wollega Galla, frizzly haired but otherwise not specifically negroid. There is a non-negroid brachycephalic strain in Ethiopia, with heavy browridges and a strong facial bony structure. This individual shows some traits characteristic of this element.
FIG. 1 (2 views, photo Ales Hrdlicka. From Hrdlicka, A., Anthropometric Survey of the Natives Of Kharga Oasis, Egypt; MCSI, vol. 59, #1, Washington, D. C., 1912, pl. 14). An oasis dweller from Kharga. This extremely dolichocephalic, low-vaulted, and relatively low-nosed Mediterranean sub-type is typical of the inhabitants of the oases of the Libyan desert, in Siwa and Awjla, where Berber is spoken, as well as in Arabic- speaking Kharga.
FIG. 2 (2 views, photo N. Puccioni, Puccioni, N., Anthropometria delle Genti della Cire- naica, Firenze, 1936, Tab. XVI, #277). A tall, slender North African Arab from the tribe of el Hasa in Cyrenaica. The narrow, prominent nose, the sloping forehead, and the protruding occiput are features typical of the nomadic Arabs of North Africa from Cyrenaica to the Atlantic.
FIG. 3 (2 views, from Zeltner, F. de, " A Propos des Touareg du Sud," RA, vol. 25, 1915, p. 172;
FIG. 3 from original blocks). A young Bourzeinat Tuareg, from the region of Timbuctu; this southern Tuareg shows clearly the Mediterranean character of this Saharan Berber people. Pictures of unveiled Tuareg men are very rare.
FIG. 4 (2 views, photo H. H. Kidder). A moderately tall, long-faced Algerian Kabyle.
FIG. 5 (2 views); A small Mediterranean who may be taken as a type example of this race in its North African form. This individual is a Shluh Berber from the Sous, south- ern Morocco.
FIG. 6 (2 views). An equally standardized Mediterranean from the Riffian coastal tribe of Beni Itteft, northern Morocco. These two individuals may be considered repre- sentatives of the Mediterranean invaders who entered western Europe over Gibraltar in the Neolithic.
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posted
^ Correct. Coon does not consider North Africans as part of any "negroid periphery" but rather "pure Mediterranean types" including that Shluh Berber man who is undoubtedly 'black'. This is why even many of Coon's peers considered his work a joke. Unfortunately decades after his death his joke is still running.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] In the recent Carthage thread we talked about how the Iron Age Algerian and Carthaginian sample included crania that resemble West African groups AND crania that resemble Nile Valley groups.
How could I forget about the Carthage remains that showed "Negroid" characteristics...
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Remnants of the original Berber nation might still have been there in medieval times. Perhaps as mixed populations. My comments on the strong correlation between dark skin and West African ancestry in the Maghreb mainly applies to living Berbers. We don't know what happened in the Maghreb in between the Iron Age and today.
Also see my comments throughout the thread below. For instance:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Amazing how northwest Africa seems to have undergone all these epic losses of diversity right under our noses. These seem to be demographic events that took place when people in the Mediterranean basin were literate. But we have no written records of this. Only thing we have is evidence that people all over the Maghreb are much closer linguistically and genetically than they should be.
Oh so you mostly meant living Berbers. The reason why I brought the topic of Dark skin Berbers vs Pure Berbers is because I remember you posting this about the Zenata Berbers:
quote:1) E-M81 carried at high frequencies in very dark skinned modern day Berbers is generally a vestige of past ancestry in the region that doesn't peak in their overall genome like it peaks in the overall genome of most northern Maghrebis (e.g. Henn et al's Tunisian sample is almost exclusively made up of this component whereas it only seems to be of secondary importance in Berbers who are very dark skinned, like some of the E-M81 carrying Zenata individuals).
2) West/Central African—NOT northeast African or old, local Maghrebi—dark skin alleles primarily explain the dark skin of very dark skinned modern day Berbers because their dark skin seems to covary to a large degree with West/Central African ancestry. Again, this only applies to living Berbers, not necessarily the ancient ones.
3) We have yet to find a Maghrebi sample with very dark skin that hasn't been influenced recently by West/Central Africans. In other words, I've yet to see genomes from dark skinned Berber populations that look like they're filled with dark skin alleles that have mostly an early/mid holocene East African (e.g. first Berber speakers) and old Maghrebi (e.g. first Iberomaurusians and Aterians) source. In my view, they no longer exist. But I'm open to being proven wrong.
4) Due to point 1, 2, 3 above, modern day dark skinned Berbers aren't what we thought they were. Among other changes they've undergone, their recent northeast African ancestry (which included dark skin alleles from northeast Africa) has been dwarfed by ongoing West/Central African and old pre-existing Maghrebi contributions.
The Zenata Berbers who were not only one of the main Moorish Berber groups(along with the Masmuda and Sanhaja) but under Abd al-Mu'mim who was Zenata founded the Almohad dynasty and the modern capital of Morocco. Forgive me if I took your post out of context. Thats one of the reasons I made this thread but anyways it seems everything here has been answered.
And yeah I seen that quote
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The author seems to assume medieval Berbers were the same as modern Berbers in appearance. Hence his assumptions about light skin Berbers mixing with black West Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: BlessedbyHorus, let's not forget even the openly racist Carleton Coon considered the Shluh Berber man of Morocco below to be an indigenous "small brown Mediterranean type".
Yeah you showed informed me about the Shluh Berbers in my other thread and how Coon tried to still label them Mediterranean. Sadly the Hamitic myth still goes on today with certain Africans online.
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The author seems to assume medieval Berbers were the same as modern Berbers in appearance. Hence his assumptions about light skin Berbers mixing with black West Africans.
Just to be a 100% certain we're on the same page: I mentioned the Iron Age Maghrebi sample mainly to point out that remnants of the original Berbers may still have existed as a population (i.e. not assimilated and extinct as they are today) during the Iron Age. Evidence for this may be that some Iron Age Maghrebi skeletal remains resembled Upper Egyptians. If you want to look for the original Berbers in the Maghreb or Sahara, you would look for an Nubian/Upper Egyptian modal phenotype, because the original Berber speakers and these Nile Valley groups belonged to the same metapopulation. Iron Age Algerians and Carthaginians seem to have included individuals who had that ancestry. Of course, these individuals' affinity with Nile Valley remains could simply be an artifact of the discriminant function analysis used by Keita (e.g. individuals mixed with West African and coastal Maghrebi ancestry may wrongly register as Upper Egyptian), but it seems unlikely that they can all be explained this way.
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If you want to look for the original Berbers in the Maghreb or Sahara, you would look for an Nubian/Upper Egyptian modal phenotype, because the original Berber speakers and these Nile Valley groups belonged to the same metapopulation. Iron Age Algerians and Carthaginians seem to have included individuals who had that ancestry. Of course, these individuals' affinity with Nile Valley remains could simply be an artifact of the discriminant function analysis used by Keita (e.g. individuals mixed with West African and coastal Maghrebi ancestry may wrongly register as Upper Egyptian), but it seems unlikely that they can all be explained this way. [/QB]
What is "original Berber" ? is that relation to Aterian or Iberomaurusian or Capsian cultures?
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Just to be a 100% certain we're on the same page: I mentioned the Iron Age Maghrebi sample mainly to point out that remnants of the original Berbers may still have existed as a population (i.e. not assimilated and extinct as they are today) during the Iron Age. Evidence for this may be that some Iron Age Maghrebi skeletal remains resembled Upper Egyptians. If you want to look for the original Berbers in the Maghreb or Sahara, you would look for an Nubian/Upper Egyptian modal phenotype, because the original Berber speakers and these Nile Valley groups belonged to the same metapopulation. Iron Age Algerians and Carthaginians seem to have included individuals who had that ancestry. Of course, these individuals' affinity with Nile Valley remains could simply be an artifact of the discriminant function analysis used by Keita (e.g. individuals mixed with West African and coastal Maghrebi ancestry may wrongly register as Upper Egyptian), but it seems unlikely that they can all be explained this way.
I always held that the "original" Berbers would have resembled Northeast Africans like say the Siwa Berbers or even Beja people. Those two groups are also very "black" like how medieval Berbers were described. Looks like everything has been answered. Appreciate the the contribution/help.
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Just to be a 100% certain we're on the same page: I mentioned the Iron Age Maghrebi sample mainly to point out that remnants of the original Berbers may still have existed as a population (i.e. not assimilated and extinct as they are today) during the Iron Age. Evidence for this may be that some Iron Age Maghrebi skeletal remains resembled Upper Egyptians. If you want to look for the original Berbers in the Maghreb or Sahara, you would look for an Nubian/Upper Egyptian modal phenotype, because the original Berber speakers and these Nile Valley groups belonged to the same metapopulation. Iron Age Algerians and Carthaginians seem to have included individuals who had that ancestry. Of course, these individuals' affinity with Nile Valley remains could simply be an artifact of the discriminant function analysis used by Keita (e.g. individuals mixed with West African and coastal Maghrebi ancestry may wrongly register as Upper Egyptian), but it seems unlikely that they can all be explained this way.
I always held that the "original" Berbers would have resembled Northeast Africans like say the Siwa Berbers or even Beja people. Those two groups are also very "black" like how medieval Berbers were described. Looks like everything has been answered. Appreciate the the contribution/help.
No, read the link he just posted
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^These are presumably the original Berber speakers. Either that, or they are biologically very similar to the original Berber speakers.
The article is talking about a rare clade of L3 found in 5 people in an isolated region of Spain but makes no mention of berbers. How do they know how recent it is in the ancestry of these 5 people?
^ Coudray et al. 2008
The high L3 frequencies are with the Figuig
quote: The main L3d sublineage is L3d3a1, whose haplotype network shows a largely Khoisan centrality (not Damara) although this node is shared also by some unspecified "other Bantu". The Southern Africa specificity of L3d3a was already noticed in the past (see here). So it is very possible that we are before an aboriginal Southern African lineage, maybe arrived with the first Khoisan Neolithic (or whatever other ancient flow) rather than a Bantu-specific founder effect.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The article is talking about a rare clade of L3 found in 5 people in an isolated region of Spain but makes no mention of berbers. How do they know how recent it is in the ancestry of these 5 people?
They can count the mutations the Iberian L3 lineages have accumulated and by how different they are from the most closely related African haplotypes.
They don't mention Berbers and this is precisely the point. Berber speakers don't have much of this original Berber ancestry anymore (go over my posts in Typezeis' recent Berber thread for more explanation).
These academics don't always connect the dots. Sometimes they're not doing this because they're being 'prudent', sometimes they're not doing this because they don't know much about Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The article is talking about a rare clade of L3 found in 5 people in an isolated region of Spain but makes no mention of berbers. How do they know how recent it is in the ancestry of these 5 people?
They can count the mutations the Iberian L3 lineages have accumulated and by how different they are from the most closely related African haplotypes.
They don't mention Berbers and this is precisely the point. Berber speakers don't have much of this original Berber ancestry anymore (go over my posts in Typezeis' recent Berber thread for more explanation).
These academics don't always connect the dots. Sometimes they're not doing this because they're being 'prudent', sometimes they're not doing this because they don't know much about Africa.
You didn't answer the question as to how far back this L3 clade goes back in that region in Spain.
If this L3 clade is 8,000 years old and West African where is your logic in calling it related to berber speakers or "original berber" ?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You didn't answer the question as to how far back this L3 clade goes back in that region in Spain.
You asked "how do they know how recent it is in the ancestry of these 5 people". What answer are you looking for if not my explanation that they know it by counting the mutations?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If this L3 clade is 8,000 years old and West African
The lineage is not West African. West Africans don't have the necessary precursors to give birth to L3f1b6. The L3f they have is just as old as the L3f in Asturia:
quote:Haplogroup L3f3 is thought to have expanded from Eastern Africa into Chad ∼8 ka (Cerný, Fernandes, et al. 2009). The present analysis shows that not only L3f3 but several L3f clades (mainly L3f1) probably also expanded around this time into Central Africa, leading to L3f ’s widespread distribution in Central Africa and to its later contribution to the maternal gene pool of Bantu-speaking agriculturists.
—Soares et al 2011
Now, mind you, the Asturian lineage (L3f1b6) we're discussing derives from L3f1. Read what Soares et al say about where L3f1 comes from in the quote above. Clearly, West Africa was a destination of this L3f migration, just like Iberia and the Maghreb. It wasn't a source.
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I think to answer your questions you should separate the terms Berber and moor. Berber as an ethnic group in N Af is only a few hundred years old. Moor, coming from "maur", was used by Europeans for western N Afs starting well over 1,000 years ago. I'm curious why you only chose descriptions of the moors from the medieval era. Since the inception of the term in Greek docs the moors have been described as black. All the N Af in Greco-roman sources were described as black/very dark (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). The only exception perhaps being the "luecoaethiops" i.e. "White Ethiopians" whom we have no descriptions of other than their name.
quote:But thats not the biggest question I have. The bigger one is that were there two types of Berber groups back then? For example you had your Sahel/Saharan Berber nomadic Berbers who lived near West Africans and then you had your Maghrebi Berbers who were isolated in the mountains. The Saharan ones were the ones described by the Arabs/Europeans as very dark while the Maghrebi ones were a "yellowish" or Khoisan like complexion that resembled something like this.
I think what you're referring to above is the European descriptions of "blackamoor" and "tawny moor". These terms don't appear until around the 1500/1600s (?) or so which is quite late in the existence of the term moor. Before that time it was just "moor" and they were described as black. To me it makes most sense that the color distinction arrived at this late time after the moors had mixed a lot with Europeans and west asians producing many lighter "tawny" colored people. The color distinction had nothing to do with Sahelian or maghrebi origins as far as I know. Europeans were preoccupied with color and made the color distinction a primary defining characteristic but even in euro writings of the time you can see that the moors weren't allied along color lines.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You didn't answer the question as to how far back this L3 clade goes back in that region in Spain.
You asked "how do they know how recent it is in the ancestry of these 5 people". What answer are you looking for if not my explanation that they know it by counting the mutations?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If this L3 clade is 8,000 years old and West African
The lineage is not West African. West Africans don't have the necessary precursors to give birth to L3f1b6. The L3f they have is just as old as the L3f in Asturia:
quote:Haplogroup L3f3 is thought to have expanded from Eastern Africa into Chad ∼8 ka (Cerný, Fernandes, et al. 2009). The present analysis shows that not only L3f3 but several L3f clades (mainly L3f1) probably also expanded around this time into Central Africa, leading to L3f ’s widespread distribution in Central Africa and to its later contribution to the maternal gene pool of Bantu-speaking agriculturists.
—Soares et al 2011
Now, mind you, the Asturian lineage (L3f1b6) we're discussing derives from L3f1. Read what Soares et al say about where L3f1 comes from in the quote above. Clearly, West Africa was a destination of this L3f migration, just like Iberia and the Maghreb. It wasn't a source.
So theoretically sometime under 8kya L3f thought to have originated in East Africa made it's way to the extreme North of Spain Yet Hg H in Taforalt, Morocco is estimated to be 12kya old in NA and it is the predominant MtDNA haplogroup of berbers
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Though I'd like to see this sorted out, Lioness you have to keep in mind that age & distribution (or expansion even) are two different things.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So theoretically sometime under 8kya L3f thought to have originated in East Africa made it's way to the extreme North of Spain
It may not have immediately made its way to the north. At no point in time do we know the precise location of this lineage. It could have recently migrated from central or western Iberia to Asturia for all we know. All we can say is that L3f1b6 is Europe-specific and that it went its separate ways (from closely related L3f1b counterparts) some time after 8000 years ago. And the more it's absent in North Africa, the more certain we can be that it reached Iberia early.
quote:Yet Hg H in Taforalt, Morocco is estimated to be 12kya old in NA and it is the predominant MtDNA haplogroup of berbers
Yes, and this has been my whole point in Typezeis' thread all along. The DNA of the original Berber speakers has a relatively small representation in the Maghreb today and so there is hardly any L3f, let alone L3f1b6, in the Maghreb. The DNA of the Afalou and Taforalt populations and West/Central Africans has a larger representation in living Berber speakers. However, Berbers speak a language that comes from a region where people were L3f and so there must have been L3f in the Maghreb at some point:
quote:Haplotype L3f is widely distributed among East and Central African Afroasiatic and Nilo-Saharan speaking populations, and is at low frequency in neighboring Niger- Kordofanian populations. The highest frequency was observed in the Afroasiatic speaking Beja (27%) from Northeast Sudan (Figure 3.4.1, Appendix 6b, Appendix 9). Most of the east African individuals analyzed in the current study belong to the L3f1 clade, however, most of the Chadic speaking individuals from central Africa in the study belong to the L3f3 clade (Appendix 8). The L3f2b sub-haplotype defined by a combination of control region mutations at nucleotide positions 16311 (HVI) and 152 (HVII), are observed exclusively in Cushitic speaking populations from East Africa (Appendix 8).
—Hirbo 2011
Do you see where the data is taking you?
L3f3 — today tends to track the movements of the original Chadic speaking branch of Afroasiatic. L3f2b — today tends to track the movements of the original Cushitic speaking branch of Afroasiatic L3f1b6 — today tends to track the movements of the original Berber speakers (or some other unknown branch of Afroasiatic). However, it's absent in the Maghreb today, showing that the Maghreb underwent a lot of demographic changes.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So theoretically sometime under 8kya L3f thought to have originated in East Africa made it's way to the extreme North of Spain
It may not have immediately made its way to the north. At no point in time do we know the precise location of this lineage. It could have recently migrated from central or western Iberia to Asturia for all we know. All we can say is that L3f1b6 is Europe-specific and that it went its separate ways (from closely related L3f1b counterparts) some time after 8000 years ago. And the more it's absent in North Africa, the more certain we can be that it reached Iberia early.
quote:Yet Hg H in Taforalt, Morocco is estimated to be 12kya old in NA and it is the predominant MtDNA haplogroup of berbers
Yes, and this has been my whole point in Typezeis' thread all along. The DNA of the original Berber speakers has a relatively small representation in the Maghreb today and so there is hardly any L3f, let alone L3f1b6, in the Maghreb.
It is completely your conjecture to say L3f is The DNA of the original Berber speakers as if it's a fact. No researchers are saying this, only you on planet earth presently
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I never said it was the DNA of the original Berber speakers. I said it EITHER belongs to the original Berber speakers or the L3f1b6 population resembled the original Berber speakers.
You're free to prove me wrong in my "conjecture" that the original Berbers had this affinity or in my "conjecture" that the hg does not come from West Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I never said it was the DNA of the original Berber speakers. I said it EITHER belongs to the original Berber speakers or the L3f1b6 population resembled the original Berber speakers.
You're free to prove me wrong.
You said it by implication
You said the DNA of the original Berber speakers has a relatively small representation in the Maghreb today.
Yet Hg H is the predominant maternal lineage of modern day berbers and it goes back 12kya in human remains in Morocco
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No lioness. Just give it up. I have been very consistent and clear.
This is what I said when I first brought it up:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^These are presumably the original Berber speakers. Either that, or they are biologically very similar to the original Berber speakers.
I have never said it's 100% certain that L3f1b6 represent Berber speakers.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I never said it was the DNA of the original Berber speakers. I said it EITHER belongs to the original Berber speakers or the L3f1b6 population resembled the original Berber speakers.
You're free to prove me wrong.
You said it by implication
You said the DNA of the original Berber speakers has a relatively small representation in the Maghreb today.
Yet Hg H is the predominant maternal lineage of modern day berbers and it goes back 12kya in human remains in Morocco
You're not even making sense right now. There is no such thing as a Berber or a Berber speaker 12ky ago. Therefore, you cannot pin Maghrebi versions of mtDNA H on the original Berber speakers.
Another thing: whatever haplogroup you try to pin on the original Berber speakers must be shared with closely related sister population (e.g. the original Chadic and Cushitic speakers). If it's not shared with these groups it means that the haplogroups introgressed into the original Berber population at some later point and were not in this population since it was formed. This is also how we know that the original Berber speakers must have had L3f (all other sister populations have it).
You're not in a position to have this 'debate' because you have not done your homework.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The DNA of the original Berber speakers has a relatively small representation in the Maghreb today and so there is hardly any L3f, let alone L3f1b6, in the Maghreb.
This is very clear.
You said The DNA of the original Berber speakers has a relatively small representation in the Maghreb today
Yet the predominant mtDNA of the berbers today is Hg H, a large representation in the Maghreb today.
And that haplogroup was found in human remains in Morocco at Taforalt dated 12,000 years ago
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The DNA of the original Berber speakers has a relatively small representation in the Maghreb today
^ I think you should retract this statement
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Lioness, your reasoning shows your thinking has not benefited from the advances in this area since 2005 or even before that. You're way behind in the latest developments. Arguing from this place of ignorance and trying to pick arguments with me is putting the cart before the horse.
What I have said is not controversial. Living Berber speakers and living Levantine Semitic speakers are the only Afroasiatic speakers who are outliers from the shared Afroasiaitc mtDNA pool. There is nothing controversial about saying this.
quote:East Africa (EA) has witnessed pivotal steps in the history of human evolution. Due to its high environmental and cultural variability, and to the long-term human presence there, the genetic structure of modern EA populations is one of the most complicated puzzles in human diversity worldwide. Similarly, the widespread Afro-Asiatic (AA) linguistic phylum reaches its highest levels of internal differentiation in EA. To disentangle this complex ethno-linguistic pattern, we studied mtDNA variability in 1,671 individuals (452 of which were newly typed) from 30 EA populations and compared our data with those from 40 populations (2970 individuals) from Central and Northern Africa and the Levant, affiliated to the AA phylum. The genetic structure of the studied populations—explored using spatial Principal Component Analysis and Model-based clustering—turned out to be composed of four clusters, each with different geographic distribution and/or linguistic affiliation, and signaling different population events in the history of the region. One cluster is widespread in Ethiopia, where it is associated with different AA-speaking populations, and shows shared ancestry with Semitic-speaking groups from Yemen and Egypt and AA-Chadic-speaking groups from Central Africa. Two clusters included populations from Southern Ethiopia, Kenya and Tanzania. Despite high and recent gene-flow (Bantu, Nilo-Saharan pastoralists), one of them is associated with a more ancient AA-Cushitic stratum. Most North-African and Levantine populations (AA-Berber, AA-Semitic) were grouped in a fourth and more differentiated cluster. We therefore conclude that EA genetic variability, although heavily influenced by migration processes, conserves traces of more ancient strata.
—Boattini et al 2013
^The mtDNA data shows that Chadic speakers, Omotic speakers, Cushitic speakers, some Semitic speakers and even modern day Egyptians have a shared mtdNA pool that can be detected statistically, and that living Berber speakers are the odd ones out. Like I said, there is nothing controversial about saying that the original Berber/Afroasiatic cluster has little representation in living Berber speakers.
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posted
Since H carriers go back at least 12kya in Morocco they could have been speaking an Afroasiatic language before berber language existed
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Maybe. But Maghrebi H would have introgressed in that population in your scenario. L3f is the common denominator between all the above groups, not Maghrebi versions of mtDNA H:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: L3f — Hirbo: "The highest frequency was observed in the Afroasiatic speaking Beja (27%)" L3f1 — Hirbo: "Most of the east African individuals analyzed in the current study belong to the L3f1 clade" L3f3 — Hirbo: "most of the Chadic speaking individuals from central Africa in the study belong to the L3f3 clade" L3f2b — Hirbo: "The L3f2b sub-haplotype [is] observed exclusively in Cushitic speaking populations from East Africa" L3f1b6 — tends to track the movements of the original Berber speakers (or some other unknown branch of Afroasiatic) today.
And I fail to see what Maghrebi mtDNA H has to do with the fact that the original Berber speakers or a group akin to them brought L3f1b6 to Iberia. You keep bringing Maghrebi mtDNA H up in relation to the original Berber speakers. What does it have to do with the original Berber speakers when you yourself stress that they were already there when the original Berber speakers arrived?
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Oh, and did I mention. The Maghreb has little L3f (even less than West Africa). They should have at least as much L3f as Chadic speakers/the Sahel if living Berber speakers have substantial original Berber ancestry. What we see instead is that L3f drops sharply towards the Maghreb. In the place of L3f and related markers we see primarily West/Central African and Eurasian hgs in the Maghreb.
posted
^ I've just finished reading you guys' (Swenet & lioness) debate. LMAO @ the lying worm squriming! She is so desperate to claim hg H as the proto-Berber clade just because modern day Berber speakers carry it even though it is absent in other Afrasian speakers. She keeps bringing up the fact that hg H was found in 12kyo Iberomarusian remains despite that proto-Berber didn't even exist at that time which corresponds to when Proto-Afrasian itself was beginning to diverge.
She doesn't even understand basic genetic concepts like bottlenecks and founder effects which explain why certain clades can be over-represented in some areas while other clades may not be represented at all in those same areas, though distribution patters in the past may very have been very different. This is why on the paternal side the E-M81 found among Berber males doesn't even go that far back in time past the late neolithic to early bronze age, and so far there are not Y-clades that correspond to the epipaleolithic mt H clades of those same Berber populations.
I agree with Swenet that Iron Age Carthage including Algeria and the island of Ibiza as well as the Canary Islands and even the Iberian Peninsula itself in regards to crania and DNA show a tremendous loss of diversity in the Maghreb. So to say modern day Berbers both phenotypically and genetically represent their ancestral linguistic forebears is ludicrous.
Oh and regards to the Marusian culture, I have repeatedly stated that mtDNA hg H found in Taforalt and others only come from a select samples which display early European traits, but as Swenet pointed out these are from the later phases of the culture. The earliest phases of Marusian which culturally have affinities to finds in Libya are represented by remains that are not in preserved condition except for one cranium (Afalou #28) which is distinct from later Maurusian crania and bears more affinities with other African i.e. Sub-Saharans. So attributing all these prehistoric North African cultures to Eurasians alone is a non-starter.
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^And note also you just recently had a discussion with lioness regarding the existence of more Mechta-Afalou groups than just the Afalou and Taforalt samples. But she still chooses to insist on her idea that mtDNA H was some sort of diagnostic marker of both Late Iberomaurusians and original Berbers (which she seems to think are the same).
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I have repeatedly stated that mtDNA hg H found in Taforalt and others only come from a select samples which display early European traits
Yes. And sometimes they seem to deliberately pick European-looking samples for DNA testing. For instance, not so long they submitted a European-looking individual (Young Man of Byrsa) from Carthage to a DNA test. The result confirmed this individual was likely European (close match in Portugal). Conveniently missing from their study and the surrounding hype is a justification for why they specifically picked a European-looking individual out of all the available skeletal remains. Although in the end their nitpicking may still backfire as this individual's autosomal DNA has yet to be published. Would be amusing if he had ancestry that complicates their narrative of "European Phoenicians" and the hype suddenly died down. Remember the silence in the blogs and media when Ramses was predicted to be V38? Oh, and Dienekes and others 'forgot' to post the Natufian results from 2016. Lol.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: She keeps bringing up the fact that hg H was found in 12kyo Iberomarusian remains despite that proto-Berber didn't even exist at that time
At what time did proto-berber come into existence?
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Maybe. But Maghrebi H would have introgressed in that population in your scenario. L3f is the common denominator between all the above groups, not Maghrebi versions of mtDNA H:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: L3f — Hirbo: "The highest frequency was observed in the Afroasiatic speaking Beja (27%)" L3f1 — Hirbo: "Most of the east African individuals analyzed in the current study belong to the L3f1 clade" L3f3 — Hirbo: "most of the Chadic speaking individuals from central Africa in the study belong to the L3f3 clade" L3f2b — Hirbo: "The L3f2b sub-haplotype [is] observed exclusively in Cushitic speaking populations from East Africa" L3f1b6 — tends to track the movements of the original Berber speakers (or some other unknown branch of Afroasiatic) today.
And I fail to see what Maghrebi mtDNA H has to do with the fact that the original Berber speakers or a group akin to them brought L3f1b6 to Iberia. You keep bringing Maghrebi mtDNA H up in relation to the original Berber speakers. What does it have to do with the original Berber speakers when you yourself stress that they were already there when the original Berber speakers arrived?
1) Which prehistoric human settlement corresponds to who you think were the first berber speakers?
2) What is the corresponding male DNA to the L3 ?
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1) The missing cultural link between the Badarian/predynastic and related Iberian Neolithic cultures hasn't been found yet in the Sahara, so I can't point to specific sites.
2) The corresponding male YDNA to L3 is CT or something close in age. But what you presumably meant to ask is what, in my view, the male counterpart of the original Berbers and/or L3fb16 is. In my view it's E-V65, as I explained recently in Typezeis' thread. But E-V65 is simply what survived. It wasn't the only YDNA involved in the migration of the original Berbers.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: 1) Which prehistoric human settlement corresponds to who you think were the first berber speakers?
2) What is the corresponding male DNA to the L3 ?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: 1) The missing cultural link between the Badarian/predynastic and related Iberian Neolithic cultures hasn't been found yet in the Sahara, so I can't point to specific sites.
If one is talking about where the first berber speakers came from and you had been talking about L3 being East African and you think that is the original berber lineage how is Iberia relevant to that? If it starts in East Africa and later wound up in Asturias what does that have to do with the original location? If I asked you about the origins of modern English people, the fact that there are millions in America is irrelevant to that
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: 1) The missing cultural link between the Badarian/predynastic and related Iberian Neolithic cultures hasn't been found yet in the Sahara, so I can't point to specific sites.
What about Capsian?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: 2) The corresponding male YDNA to L3 is CT or something close in age. But what you presumably meant to ask is what, in my view, the male counterpart of the original Berbers and/or L3fb16 is. In my view it's E-V65, as I explained recently in Typezeis' thread. But E-V65 is simply what survived. It wasn't the only YDNA involved in the migration of the original Berbers. [/QB]
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations C. Coudray1∗ , A. Olivieri2, A. Achilli2,3, M. Pala2, M. Melhaoui4, M. Cherkaoui5, F. El-Chennawi6, M. Kossmann7, A. Torroni2 and J. M. Dugoujon1 2008
The E clades are at lower frequencies in the Siwa of Egypt setting lower than other berbers
E-V65, a clade of E1b1b1a shows it's highest frequency (10.1%) in Middle Atlas berbers of Morocco according to this article although the Siwa do come in 2nd at 6.5% But they are more prominent with R1b which since the date of the above chart has been determined to be V88 26.9% and unlike other berbers carry B2a1a 28%, other berbers in this article 0% B2a1a is the most commonly observed subclade of haplogroup B, found in Cameroon and many places, Cameroon, the same place with the high V88 frequencies
The complexity of all of this makes it very hard to come to conclusions about who the "original" berbers were and if you look at the prehistoric populations of the Maghreb many researchers note discontinuity between them.
The Capsian culture was a Mesolithic culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. Did they speak an Afrosemitic language? It is unknown. They may have spoken a language that no longer exists
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If it starts in East Africa and later wound up in Asturias what does that have to do with the original location?
It has everything to do with it. During the Neolithic the Sahara was filled with populations and cultures that never made it to our era. These populations may not have a direct relevancy to the origins of the original Berbers, but culturally many of them are candidates for being the original Berber speakers. Do you have any idea what implications this has for our topic? It means that there are so many distinct regional cultures in the Sahara that searching for the original Berbers is like searching for a needle in a haystack. When that's the case, you can only hone in on the original Berber speakers by using certain data points intelligently. And using certain incontrovertible facts (like the fact that there must have been Nile Valley cultures in between the Badarian region and Iberia that so far have not been found, but which made a contribution to the Iberian neolithic and left behind L3f1b8) is an example of using data points intelligently. Especially since this is the path we know the original Berber speakers traveled on their way to the Maghreb. So, yes, you can definitely use the destination of a population to infer that the archaeological sites you asked me for haven't been found yet.
BTW, I'm wrapping up this discussion because you are not in a position to judge what I'm saying. You haven't even thought about what I've said and you don't know the full context to be able to form an opinion. You read what I said and immediately googled some charts to conjure up hollow objections. Your charts and hg statistics are just thinly veiled attempts to hide the fact that you already had your mind made up to antagonize whatever I would say.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: She keeps bringing up the fact that hg H was found in 12kyo Iberomarusian remains despite that proto-Berber didn't even exist at that time
At what time did proto-berber come into existence?
Good question. According to all the glottochronology studies done by experts like Ehret, Blench, and others, Proto-Berber is only 3,000 years old! Yet the same glottochronological analyses show that Proto-Afrasian began to diverge into its daughter languages 12,000-10,000 years ago. This is a huge discrepancy which can only be explained by the presence of an intermediate Pre-Proto-Berber stage which diverged from Proto-Afrasian first before itself diverging into Proto-Berber and other language groups. This is similar to the findings of Proto-Semitic which developed 6,000 years ago probably in the eastern Levant, diverging from a Pre-Proto-Semitic stage that was introduced by African immigrants. The only difference is that Proto-Semitic is twice as old as Proto-Berber.
Now the only thing missing is the archaeological culture and/or physical population representing Proto-Berber much less Pre-Proto-Berber.
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quote:Originally posted by africurious: @blessedbyhorus
I think to answer your questions you should separate the terms Berber and moor. Berber as an ethnic group in N Af is only a few hundred years old. Moor, coming from "maur", was used by Europeans for western N Afs starting well over 1,000 years ago. I'm curious why you only chose descriptions of the moors from the medieval era. Since the inception of the term in Greek docs the moors have been described as black. All the N Af in Greco-roman sources were described as black/very dark (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). The only exception perhaps being the "luecoaethiops" i.e. "White Ethiopians" whom we have no descriptions of other than their name.
quote:But thats not the biggest question I have. The bigger one is that were there two types of Berber groups back then? For example you had your Sahel/Saharan Berber nomadic Berbers who lived near West Africans and then you had your Maghrebi Berbers who were isolated in the mountains. The Saharan ones were the ones described by the Arabs/Europeans as very dark while the Maghrebi ones were a "yellowish" or Khoisan like complexion that resembled something like this.
I think what you're referring to above is the European descriptions of "blackamoor" and "tawny moor". These terms don't appear until around the 1500/1600s (?) or so which is quite late in the existence of the term moor. Before that time it was just "moor" and they were described as black. To me it makes most sense that the color distinction arrived at this late time after the moors had mixed a lot with Europeans and west asians producing many lighter "tawny" colored people. The color distinction had nothing to do with Sahelian or maghrebi origins as far as I know. Europeans were preoccupied with color and made the color distinction a primary defining characteristic but even in euro writings of the time you can see that the moors weren't allied along color lines.
No offense but you're literally arguing stuff I never argued and stuff I already know about. I am very aware that the term "Moor" predates Islam i.e with the Greeks/Romans. But the point is the majority of the "Moors" during the medieval era were Berbers.
But more importantly this thread is NOT about the Moors but those Saharan Berbers who made of the majority of the Moorish troops. I was asking due to recent topics were they just admixed West Africans that were assimilated into Berber culture but my questions has already been answered.
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Is it okay if we go back in time... Say 2010 with the Frigi S study?
quote:Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
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She is so desperate to claim hg H as the proto-Berber clade just because modern day Berber speakers carry it even though it is absent in other Afrasian speakers. She keeps bringing up the fact that hg H was found in 12kyo Iberomarusian remains despite that proto-Berber didn't even exist at that time which corresponds to when Proto-Afrasian itself was beginning to diverge.
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