...
EgyptSearch Forums Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » Moorish troops with captives, Cantigas de Santa Maria, 13th C. AD

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Moorish troops with captives, Cantigas de Santa Maria, 13th C. AD
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

Moorish troops with captives, Manuscript: Cantigas de Santa Maria, 13th C. AD

In the bottom row in the front, left to right
a turbaned soldier carrying an lance,
a dark skinned soldier carrying a lance,
captive Christians with their arms behind their backs

The Cantigas de Santa Maria (CSM) is a late-medieval collection of over four hundred sacred Galician-Portuguese songs composed, according to tradition, by Alfonso X, known as “El Sabio,” King of Castile and León (1252–1284). The CSM is a monumental achievement in vernacular lyric and book art, remarkable in every way for its devotion to the Virgin through an ingenious combination of words, music, and visual art.


Alfonso’s father, Ferdinand III, conquered Andalusia and imposed tribute on the remaining Muslim states in Spain—Murcia and Granada. His mother, Beatrice, was granddaughter of the Holy Roman emperor Frederick I. Alfonso, already known as a scholar, became king in 1252. He had many scholars in his traveling court, and he was an active participant in their writing and editing. Some were experts on Roman law, which Alfonso hoped to make the basis of a uniform code for his lands. The court, gifts to friends, and foreign intrigue proved expensive, and Alfonso taxed heavily.

Alfonso crushed a Muslim revolt in 1252 and a revolt by nobles in 1254. Morocco, Granada, and Murcia invaded in 1264, but Alfonso won with Aragonese help and annexed Murcia. In 1272, a revolt and withdrawal to Granada by nobles forced him to confirm local privileges. In 1273 Alfonso founded and granted privileges to the Mesta, a guild of migratory shepherds.

Alfonso claimed many foreign titles, notably that of Holy Roman emperor in 1256. In 1257, bribes won him four electoral votes for emperor to three for Richard of Cornwall, but Richard, unlike Alfonso, could go to Germany. In 1275 Richard died, and Alfonso went to France to appeal to Pope Gregory X, who persuaded him to renounce his claim.

While Alfonso was in France, Morocco and Granada invaded Castile. Ferdinand, Alfonso’s eldest son, was killed in the fighting. Sancho, Alfonso’s second son, became a hero in defeating the invaders and proclaimed himself heir, disregarding Ferdinand’s sons, who were nephews of the French king. Alfonso recognized Sancho’s claim in 1278 but, under French pressure, became ambiguous in 1281. Taking advantage of grievances against Alfonso, Sancho declared himself regent. Towns and nobles rose against Alfonso, who had to take refuge in Sevilla (Seville). Some of Sancho’s followers deserted, but, after Alfonso died, Sancho took Sevilla and became King Sancho IV.

Alfonso’s court scholars wrote mostly in Castilian Spanish, which they made a literary language by regularizing the syntax and by borrowing—and defining—words for concepts not previously discussed. In their Premera crónica general, they tried to determine historical facts from chronicle, folklore, and Arabic sources. Less factual was their Gran e general estoria, a world history, with extensive translations from the Old Testament. The Tablas Alfonsíes were planetary tables, based on an Arabic source but updated by observations at Toledo 1262–72. Siete partidas was the most important law code. It was based on Roman law and contained discourses on manners and morals and an idea of the king and his people as a corporation—superior to feudal arrangements—with the king as agent of both God and the people. After Alfonso’s death, Siete partidas was proclaimed the law of all Castile and Leon in 1348, and the language of Alfonso’s court evolved into modern Castilian Spanish.

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lawaya
Member
Member # 22120

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lawaya   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
where proof that these people were moors cause the article didn't say anything about moors or them being.
Posts: 54 | From: va | Registered: Dec 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -


 -

writing at top inside panel says:

"Como os mouros sacaron o conde da souta da galea"

(How the Moors sacked the Count of the Gala)


Panel 5 of Page 1 of Cantiga 95 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

corrected reference, bottom Cantiga is # 183,
top 95

("Mouros" is Moors in English)

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lawaya
Member
Member # 22120

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lawaya   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
the text that's highlighted point out the moors we don't know if that's credible because other source are not calling them moors I need main source to back that book up.... also if you trying to say moors weren't black the same pictures in that book other sources are calling the dark people moors. and most sources are them army of muslim and them pale people could be muslim not moors
Posts: 54 | From: va | Registered: Dec 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lawaya:
this book cant be credible because its very possible the pictures were whitewashed and the text that's highlighted point out the moors we don't know if that's credible because other source are not calling them moors I need main source to back that book up

The word "Moor" or "Mouros" was the name used by the Europeans to describe Muslims who lived in North Africa.
In this book you see Moors of different colors, light and dark. So at this time the Europeans were using the term to mean
any Muslims who lived in North Africa who would also invade and occupy Spain.
These people did not call themselves "Moor"
Later on around the 15th century many Central Europeans changed the meaning of the word sometimes to mean any dark skinned African
But back in the 13th century in the same century when the Moors
had lost most of their control in Iberia the term "Moor" is applied to all types of people in the North African/Arab Islamic culture
--not as an ethnic type


Above is a famous book of poems from 13th century Spain that has been written about by many scholars.
You probably won't find anything earlier than this with pictures of Moors.

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let's look at the etymology of the word 'moor' shall we?

Moor (n.) Look up Moor at Dictionary.com
"North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India


Of course all of this has been pointed out to you many times before in many other threads especially by Tukulor. But of course you feign ignorance or amnesia as usual.

By the way, it's easy to cherry pick photos but another to do actual research on the topic.

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] Let's look at the etymology of the word 'moor' shall we?

That is the wrong approach. The right approach is to look at how the word was used in a given time period,
Usage is how the term is actually applied culturally rather than roots of the word or literal meanings.
As we can see, the term "Moor" was applied at that time in Spain to the full spectrum of skin tones of Muslims living in North Africa.
I showed that spectrum in the illustrations and proved such word usage with text. You cherry picked only pictures with dark skinned persons.

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ Shut up, twit! Don't dictate to me what approach is "incorrect". It is simple. The very word 'moor' means BLACK. You are right about its usage, but its usage is also correlated by its etymology hence why 'moor' was originally applied to black people in general, then black Muslims, and then to Muslims regardless of color.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
"incorrect". It is simple. The very word 'moor' means BLACK. You are right about its usage, but its usage is also correlated by its etymology hence why 'moor' was originally applied to black people in general, then black Muslims, and then to Muslims regardless of color. [/qb]

 -


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor

etymology

Moor (n.)

"North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.

___________________________________


During the classical period, the Romans interacted with, and later conquered, parts of Mauretania, a state that covered modern northern Morocco, western Algeria, and the Spanish cities Ceuta and Melilla.The Berber tribes of the region were noted in Classical literature as Mauri, which was subsequently rendered as "Moors" in English and in related variations in other European languages. Mauri (Μαῦροι) is recorded as the native name by Strabo in the early 1st century. This appellation was also adopted into Latin, whereas the Greek name for the tribe was Maurusii (Μαυρούσιοι)

By the early Christian era, the byname Mauritius identified anyone originating in Africa (the Maghreb), roughly corresponding to Berber populations. Two prominent "Mauritian" churchmen were Tertullian and St. Augustine.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
You are right about its usage, but its usage is also correlated by its etymology hence why 'moor' was originally applied to black people in general, then black Muslims, and then to Muslims regardless of color.

This thread is not about 'moor' was applied to black people in general
It is about the time period when people in North Africa invaded and occupied Iberia, how the term was used then

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BrandonP
Member
Member # 3735

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BrandonP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Shut up, twit! Don't dictate to me what approach is "incorrect". It is simple. The very word 'moor' means BLACK. You are right about its usage, but its usage is also correlated by its etymology hence why 'moor' was originally applied to black people in general, then black Muslims, and then to Muslims regardless of color.

Wouldn't a significant chunk of the people in Moorish Spain have been local Spaniards who had switched to the religion of their conquerors? That could explain the presence of lighter-skinned people in some of these medieval depictions. Even if some of the "Moorish" dynasties did originate among Berber-speakers of North Africa, I doubt the majority of the people they ruled in Spain would have looked African too.

As for the etymology of "Moor"...even if the term originally referred to a particular ethnic group rather than the color "black", you still have to wonder how that group came to be associated with the color in the first place. I remember Punos_Rey sharing this very quote on another message board:

quote:
And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.
---Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
xyyman
Member
Member # 13597

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for xyyman   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
He just can't help himself...smh

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
....Don't dictate to me ........ You are right ....about its usage, .


Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Departing for a moment from the 13th c thread topic, berbers centuries before in the region, may or may not be ancestors of part of the group of people called "Moors' who lived in North Africa and mounted the conquest of Iberia under the Umayyad Caliphate a largely merchant family of the Quraysh tribe centred at Mecca with capital in Damascus Syria.
__________________________________
Juba II or Juba II of Numidia (52/50 BC – AD 23) was a king of Numidia located in what is now Algeria and a smaller part of Tunisia and Libya in the Maghreb.
He later moved to Mauretania corresponding to the Mediterranean coast of what is today Morocco.

Mauretania originally was an independent tribal Berber kingdom from around the 3rd century BC. It became a client state of the Roman Empire in 33 BC, then a full Roman province after the death of its last king Ptolemy of Mauretania in AD 40.

Mauretania existed as a tribal kingdom of the Mauri people. Mauri (Μαῦροι) is recorded as the native name by Strabo in the early 1st century. This appellation was also adopted into Latin, whereas the Greek name for the tribe was Maurusii (Μαυρούσιοι).The Mauri would later bequeath their name to the Moors on the Mediterranean coast of North Africa, from at least the 3rd century BC.

The earliest recorded mentions of the Mauri are in the context of Phoenician and Carthaginian settlements such as Lixus, Mogador and Chellah.

King Atlas was a legendary king of Mauretania credited with the invention of the celestial globe. The first known historical king of the Mauri is Baga, who ruled during the Second Punic War. The Mauri were in close contact with Numidia. Bocchus I (fl. 110 BC) was father-in-law to the redoubted Numidian king Jugurtha.

Mauretania became a client kingdom of the Roman Empire in 33 BC. The Romans installed Juba II of Numidia as their client-king.

Juba II's first wife was Cleopatra Selene II, daughter of Greek Ptolemaic Queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and Roman triumvir Mark Antony.Juba II was a Berber prince from North Africa.

Juba II was brought to Rome by Julius Caesar and he took part in Caesar’s triumphal procession. In Rome he learned Latin and Greek, became romanized and was granted Roman citizenship.Through dedication to his studies, he is said to have become one of Rome's best educated citizens, and by age 20 he wrote one of his first works entitled Roman Archaeology.

According to Pliny the Younger, Juba II sent an expedition to the Canary Islands and Madeira. Juba II had given the Canary Islands that name because he found particularly ferocious dogs (canarius – from canis – meaning of the dogs in Latin) on the island.

 -
Juba II

 -
Juba I of Numida

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Geber     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Roman art. Mosaic. Detail. Man's face. 3rd century. Round Room. Pio-Clementine Museum. Vatican Museums. Vatican city.

 -


quote:
Indeed the sophistication of Garamantian building design, not least of its fortifications, may have been copied by the Romans, some of whose forts in North Africa are strikingly similar in appearance.

The arrival of the Romans in the north has a definite impact on the Garamantes. According to the Roman poet Marcus Annaeus Lucanus (Lucan), the first conflict takes place when the Garamantes join the Numidian king, Juba I, during the war between Julius Caesar and the Senate. Juba's army defeats the Roman commander, Curio, in 49 BC, but a retaliatory strike by Caesar defeats the Garamantes in turn.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsAfrica/AfricaLibya.htm
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Geber     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -


 -


quote:
This face with its impressive head of hair is that of the Numidian king Juba I. The idealization of the features suggests the influence of Hellenistic royal portraits, indicating that this was a posthumous portrait made during the reign of the king's son Juba II (reputed for his Greco-Roman culture). Juba I appears to be deified in this portrait by a likening to Jupiter.


A striking countenance

This imperious face is that of a middle-aged man, whose most striking feature is his abundant hair, which forms a heavy mass of twisted curls, arranged in rows. He is wearing a headband, which was a sign of royalty. A splendid beard also frames his face, whose discreet signs of age contribute to the impression of authority that emanates from the figure.

King Juba I


When this head was discovered in 1895, it was immediately identified as a portrait of King Juba I. This suggestion was confirmed after comparison with coins, on which portraits of the king display the same thick hair (which had made a great an impression on Cicero).


Juba I, king of Numidia (a North African kingdom corresponding to the eastern part of modern Algeria), went down in Roman history when he sided with Pompey's partisans in the conflict between the consul and Caesar. The latter's victory in Thapsus in 46 BC sounded the knell for Pompey's party in Africa; Juba I committed suicide, and his kingdom became a Roman province called Africa Nova. His son, the future Juba II, was taken to Rome where he was raised and educated.


A posthumous representation

The wrinkles on the sovereign's brow and the hollowed cheeks that accentuate his prominent cheekbones indicate his age, yet this portrait remains largely idealized. The noble features (those of a man in the prime of life) and headband around the hair come from the tradition of Hellenistic royal portraiture.


This ideal character, strongly indebted to Greek art, suggests that the work was produced after the reign of Juba I. The portrait in the Louvre was probably a posthumous one, produced during the reign of Juba II, the sovereign whose Roman education left him steeped in Greco-Latin culture. He may therefore have honored his father by perhaps likening him to Jupiter.
Bibliography


K. de Kersauson, Catalogue des portraits romains, I, Paris, 1986, n 54, p. 120.
Exposition L'Algérie au temps des royaumes numides, Musée départemental des Antiquités, Rouen, 16 mai-27 octobre 2003 et Musée national Cirta, Constantine, 18 février-18 mai 2004, n 130.

http://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/juba-i
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Geber     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
"incorrect". It is simple. The very word 'moor' means BLACK. You are right about its usage, but its usage is also correlated by its etymology hence why 'moor' was originally applied to black people in general, then black Muslims, and then to Muslims regardless of color.

 -


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor

etymology

Moor (n.)

"North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.

___________________________________


During the classical period, the Romans interacted with, and later conquered, parts of Mauretania, a state that covered modern northern Morocco, western Algeria, and the Spanish cities Ceuta and Melilla.The Berber tribes of the region were noted in Classical literature as Mauri, which was subsequently rendered as "Moors" in English and in related variations in other European languages. Mauri (Μαῦροι) is recorded as the native name by Strabo in the early 1st century. This appellation was also adopted into Latin, whereas the Greek name for the tribe was Maurusii (Μαυρούσιοι)

By the early Christian era, the byname Mauritius identified anyone originating in Africa (the Maghreb), roughly corresponding to Berber populations. Two prominent "Mauritian" churchmen were Tertullian and St. Augustine.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
You are right about its usage, but its usage is also correlated by its etymology hence why 'moor' was originally applied to black people in general, then black Muslims, and then to Muslims regardless of color.

This thread is not about 'moor' was applied to black people in general
It is about the time period when people in North Africa invaded and occupied Iberia, how the term was used then [/QB]

The true etymology of the word Moor:


quote:
Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ (Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.

A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.

2. a fish, Agatharch.109.

II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc.
2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.


—Henry George Liddell; Robert Scott [1940], A Greek-English Lexicon; Machine readable text (Trustees of Tufts University, Oxford)

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.2.LSJ.360954


 -

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Geber     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -


I wonder why ancient proto Greeks are depicted like this?

 -

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | EgyptSearch!

(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3