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Author Topic: H. L. Gates' Africa's Great Civilizations
Clyde Winters
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H.L. Gates, Africa's Great Civilizations presented on PBS during Black History Month, is just another Eurocentric view of ancient African history. the series is interesting but it only reflects the European view that African history is the result of outside influences.

In the series he shows images of the Egyptians as Blacks, but by saying that after the 25th Dynasty took Egypt they became the "Black Rulers" of Egypt, Gates implies that the ancient Egyptians were non-Blacks.

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Then he discusses the Berbers of Africa and implies that the Berbers who took over Spain were white Berbers instead of Black Berbers. For example, the Sanhaja Berbers were described as Blacks, but Gates shows white Berbers. We know from the pictures of the North African Moors that they were Black, not Berbers who are descendants of the Vandal.

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In addition, he failed to discuss the fact that Ibn Yahsin, was mainly established in Senegal before his followers spread across North Africa and took Spain, or that the Moors of Spain were predominately Black. The white Arabs of Spain were the Saracens. The Moors ruled Spain from 711-1492.

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Gates did not present anything new about ancient African civilization that is not already "accepted" by the Eurocentric Academe, except the fact that writing began in Egypt before Sumer.

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The Africa's Great Civilization series presents none of the research relating to African civilizations that differ from Eurocentric view of ancient history that has been recorded since DuBois and Diop.

Sadly, Gates has not really presented a true history of ancient Africa.

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Clyde Winters
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Runoko, travelwithruno.

Runoko Rashidi

28 February 2017

Family,

People ask me from time to time what I think of the work of Henry Louis Gates. My response is that he has done some very fine work but is misguided and is in some ways an embarrassment for African people. In some ways he reminds me of the brilliant African-American (perhaps I should say "negro") historian and scholar Frank M. Snowden. On the African presence in ancient Greece and Rome Snowden was brilliant. But when discussing Kmt Snowden, like Gates today, was an embarrassment.


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For example, when discussing the Nile Valley, Snowden noted "The ancient Egyptians were among the first of several predominately white peoples who had extended contacts with the blacks living in the lands south of Egypt." He calls the Ancient Egyptians "predominately white" peoples. What an insult. This is published in a work called The African Diaspora published in 1976 (not that long ago) by a major publishing house. Snowden was deeply antagonistic to Cheikh Anta Diop and spent many years at Howard University. With what mental gyrations does one transform someone like the powerful Queen Tiye or Khredounkh (the mother of Imhotep) or Akhenaten, pictured here, into someone predominately white? In many ways Skip Gates channels such thinking and is a modern-day Frank Snowden. Why else would he be on mainstream TV?

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Thereal
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I was excited to see more but previously reading and seeing other stuf on here before ever watching the show made me very angry as the they showing or talking about things that were lies or distortions.
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Doug M
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To be fair, Gates did a very high level discussion of Egypt and even made it clear that the early Nile valley people were black Africans as he discussed Egyptian "afro picks" with someone from the Petrie museum. He also discussed how Africans were raising cattle in the Sahara prior to moving into the Nile Valley when the Sahara dried up. Most of the images from Egypt were of modern Egyptians, most of whom were his complexion. There was one image of the scorpion king that was very light looking but you really didn't see it well and there were no reenactments in the show. Towards the end of the segment he made the statement that "Many historians" call the 25th dynasty that of the "black pharaohs". But he didn't say that he agrees or disagrees. Of course he never showed any full color images from any Egyptian tombs, relying on a few images of King Tut's mask and some faded tomb art to cover most Egyptian art. He showed more images of Kushite art than Egyptian art. So he never said directly that the Ancient Egyptians were "white". As a matter of fact one of the scholars stated clearly that the Upper Egyptians and Kushites were very closely related. So again, a very high level balanced discussion that doesn't get into "racial" aspects but definitely lays the foundation of Egypt in Africa among black African populations on the Nile.

You can still watch the episodes online.

The only part I absolutely hated in the first episode is all these white folks talking about early humans in South Africa..... Should have been some black folks there.

But beyond that there was some good stuff: The show clearly states that the roots of agriculture, cosmetics, writing, math and personal adornment lay in Africa, even though they didn't point out that modern writing evolved from Egyptian writing not from Babylonian cuneiform or that "cursive writing" comes from Egyptian shorthand writing.

I don't expect Gates to spew fire and brimstone about racism in the history of Archaeology and the "discovery" of Egypt. But he did use the show to promote some very salient points that were important nonetheless, at least in the first episode. I haven't watched the rest yet.

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Swenet
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This guy (HLG) actually said the AE didn't look like Michael Jordan in his argument against an African Egypt. Lol. I don't know why these scholars think their expertise in one area translates to expertise in another area. Historians especially should stay in their lane after their abysmal track record on population affinities. You can tell by their language that most of these scholars' grasp of the subject isn't very sophisticated. It's basically just parroting physical anthropologists who often also aren't specialists in African populations' history themselves. So by the time historians relay population affinities information to lay people, the picture is often completely botched. E.g. terms like 'Eurafrican' in reference to various groups in and outside of Africa suddenly become 'white' in the mind of the historian.
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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
This guy (HLG) actually said the AE didn't look like Michael Jordan in his argument against an African Egypt. Lol. I don't know why these scholars think their expertise in one area translates to expertise in another area. Historians especially should stay in their lane after their abysmal track record on population affinities. You can tell by their language that most of these scholars' grasp of the subject isn't very sophisticated. It's basically just parroting physical anthropologists who often also aren't specialists in African populations' history themselves.

I didn't see the episode in question, but this does piss me off. He of all people ought to know better. Sadly, I think this particular individual wanted to play it safe just so his project could get off the ground. I want to give him a piece of my mind!
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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
This guy (HLG) actually said the AE didn't look like Michael Jordan in his argument against an African Egypt. Lol. I don't know why these scholars think their expertise in one area translates to expertise in another area. Historians especially should stay in their lane after their abysmal track record on population affinities. You can tell by their language that most of these scholars' grasp of the subject isn't very sophisticated. It's basically just parroting physical anthropologists who often also aren't specialists in African populations' history themselves. So by the time historians relay population affinities information to lay people, the picture is often completely botched.

OMG THIS!!!!


But even still in a historical position the ancient Egyptians according to classical sources were labelled as "black." I notice a lot of these so called historians ignore primary sources and just have their own agendas.


What I like about the bio-anthropological side is while SOME MAY have their own agenda they are for the most part FORCED to be objective because they are in the field of science. I hope what I said makes sense.

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BrandonP
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Does anyone have a clip handy where Henry Loius Gates talks about the AE appearance or affinities? I need to know exactly what he says as reference for a rebuttal to him.

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Swenet
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@Nodnarb

I don't think he said that on this show. I read this some time around 2010. HLG has a long history of making dubious comments. He's been cooning. This is why he gets no brownie points for making (what seem to be) some concessions in this new show. He has no choice but to get with the program since the notion of the Africanity of early Nile Valley cultures is becoming more mainstream.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
Does anyone have a clip handy where Henry Loius Gates talks about the AE appearance or affinities? I need to know exactly what he says as reference for a rebuttal to him.

IT should be on his episode he did in Egypt...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu-oheAjjYA

You have to look through it yourself I cant stomach HLG very long.

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

I don't think he said that on this show. I read this some time around 2010. HLG has a long history of making dubious comments. He's been cooning. This is why he gets no brownie points for making (what seem to be) some concessions in this new show. He has no choice but to get with the program since the notion of the Africanity of early Nile Valley cultures is becoming more mainstream.

If it were up to me, I wouldn't even avoid Egypt in an African civilization show. Yes, other cultures on the continent need more exposure. But that doesn't mean Egypt needs to be totally excluded just so those with Eurocentric conditioning can feel more comfortable. Why not recognize that Egypt was one of the many different indigenous civilizations in Africa?
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Punos_Rey
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I expecting absolutely nothing less from HLG and didn't bother to watch. Ugh

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by BBH:
But even still in a historical position the ancient Egyptians according to classical sources were labelled as "black." I notice a lot of these so called historians ignore primary sources and just have their own agendas.

They do this (ignoring or dismissing ancient sources) all the time, bro. Just look at how they're tapdancing here to confuse biblical geographers identification of African (or African-like groups) in Mesopotamia:

quote:
The addition of vv. 8-12 to Cush's lineage appears to be a conflation of Cush
with a northern group (Kassites) whose name employs the same unpointed root
consonants. Confusion with this known northern group would account for the
introduction of peoples native to lands non-contiguous with those of other
Hamites.

—Rodney Steven Sadler Jr., Can a Cushite Change His Skin?An Examination of Race, Ethnicity, and Othering in the Hebrew Bible

They're saying that biblical scribes were retarded and mistook their own neighbours for Africans because the names of both (Kassities and Cushites) were identical in Hebrew/Semitic scripts.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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I remember that quote, you have to Remember HLG is a historian and as a History student/major I can tell you first hand that Historians live in their own bubble with their own smug accounts of history being recounted to each other in their echo chambers. Guns Germs and Steel is a good example of this...I can go on but Ill stop for both our sake..

At the same time you cant blame him really for being cautious spreading black history esp. with a mainly non black American audience. If he comes out saying all the Egyptians were black he would risk looking like a radical Afrocentrist...Esp back in the 90-early 2000's when the black Egypt debate was hot and the Eurasian Egypt supporters had more of a chance
I mean look at people like Mike111 and Clyde Winters, and sadly most Afrocentrists dabble somewhat in radical "We Wuz Kangs" type revisonism.

He has done some good I liked his special on the Swahili...cant hate on the brotha too hard lol...

Check this out
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/03/education/can-harvard-s-powerhouse-alter-the-course-of-black-studies.html

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

I don't think he said that on this show. I read this some time around 2010. HLG has a long history of making dubious comments. He's been cooning. This is why he gets no brownie points for making (what seem to be) some concessions in this new show. He has no choice but to get with the program since the notion of the Africanity of early Nile Valley cultures is becoming more mainstream.


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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I remember that quote, you have to Remember HLG is a historian and as a History student/major I can tell you first hand that Historians live in their own bubble with their own smug accounts of history being recounted to each other in their echo chambers. Guns Germs and Steel is a good example of this...I can go on but Ill stop for both our sake..

At the same time you cant blame him really for being cautious spreading black history esp. with a mainly non black American audience. If he comes out saying all the Egyptians were black he would risk looking like a radical Afrocentrist...Esp back in the 90-early 2000's when the black Egypt debate was hot and the Eurasian Egypt supporters had more of a chance
I mean look at people like Mike111 and Clyde Winters, and sadly most Afrocentrists dabble somewhat in radical "We Wuz Kangs" type revisonism.

He has done some good I liked his special on the Swahili...cant hate on the brotha too hard lol...

Check this out
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/03/education/can-harvard-s-powerhouse-alter-the-course-of-black-studies.html

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

I don't think he said that on this show. I read this some time around 2010. HLG has a long history of making dubious comments. He's been cooning. This is why he gets no brownie points for making (what seem to be) some concessions in this new show. He has no choice but to get with the program since the notion of the Africanity of early Nile Valley cultures is becoming more mainstream.


I do not do historical revisonism. My research and writing is based on the traditions of W.E.B. DuBois , who did the first history of Africa and John Jackson.

You think what I write is "revisonism" because you have only studied African history from the Eurocentric perspective. Even Basil Davidson presents a more authentic view of African history than Gates.

The problem with the people on this forum is that you lack direction for your research. You fail to realize that a scholar does research, not just make feel-good speeches on the history of Black people. Secondly, you can't see that so called West Asian and South Asian history is the product of African people who left Africa beginning 5kya; and as a result of Indo-European expansion were in many cases driven back into Africa from Eurasia.

My research on the otherhand, is based upon 200 years of Afro-American research into the ancient history of the Black race. Your mission is to perpetuate the Hamitic myths first introduced by Champolion and others, that the key to Egypt and West Asian history was a mixed race population.

Afro-American scholars, people who write history have met the standards of scholarship for almost 200 years supporting the role of Blacks in ancient history.

During this period Eurocentric researchers have attempted to whiteout , Blacks from history.

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Knowledge is cumulative. In other words we build new knowledge on the research of the giants in our field. From your lack of knowledge about DuBois' it is clear you have no recognition of the fact that what you guys are writing about has already been discussed formerly, and your job should be confirming or disconfirming what these giants wrote.

I teach educational philosophy on occasion. In this class I just don't talk about contemporary educators I also talk about the Greek philosophers.

The themes Ironlion, Mike, Marc and I write about is part of a 200 year tradition of Afro-American scholarship. Many Afro-American researchers need to learn to respect your own scholars. Don't let white supremacy continue to blind you to the truths of history.

Afrocentrism, is a mature social science that was founded by Afro-Americans almost 200 years ago.

These men and women provided scholarship based on contemporary archaeological and historical research the African/Black origination of civilization throughout the world. These Afro-American scholars, mostly trained at Harvard University (one of the few Universities that admitted Blacks in the 19th Century) provide the scientific basis the global role played by African people in civilizing the world.

Afrocentrism and the Africalogical study of ancient Black civilizations was began by Afro-Americans.


The foundation of any mature science is its articulation in an authoritive text (Kuhn, 1996, 136). The Africalogical textbooks published by Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) provided the vocabulary themes for further Afrocentric social science research.

The pedagogy for ancient africalogical research was well established by the end of the 19th century by African American researchers well versed in the classical languages and knowledge of Greek and Latin. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) in the Freedom Journal, were the first African Americans to discuss and explain the "Ancient Model" of history.

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These afrocentric social scientists used the classics to prove that the Blacks founded civilization in Egypt, Ethiopia, Babylon and Ninevah. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) made it clear that archaeological research supported the classical, or "Ancient Model" of history.

Edward Blyden (1869) also used classical sources to discuss the ancient history of African people. In his work he not only discussed the evidence for Blacks in West Asia and Egypt, he also discussed the role of Blacks in ancient America (Blyden, 1869, 78).

By 1883, africalogical researchers began to publish book on African American history. G.W. Williams (1883) wrote the first textbook on African American history. In the History of the Negro Race in America, Dr. Williams provided the schema for all future africalogical history text.

Dr. Williams (1883) confirmed the classical traditions for Blacks founding civilization in both Africa (Egypt, Ethiopia) and West Asia. In addition, to confirming the "Ancient Model" of history, Dr. Williams (1883) also mentioned the presence of Blacks in Indo-China and the Malay Peninsula. Dr. Williams was trained at Howard.

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A decade later R.L. Perry (1893) also presented evidence to confirm the classical traditions of Blacks founding Egypt, Greece and the Mesopotamian civilization. He also provided empirical evidence for the role of Blacks in Phoenicia, thus increasing the scope of the ASAH paradigms.

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Pauline E. Hopkins (1905) added further articulation of the ASAH paradigms of the application of these paradigms in understanding the role of Blacks in West Asia and Africa. Hopkins (1905) provided further confirmation of the role of Blacks in Southeast Asia, and expanded the scope of africalogical research to China (1905).

This review of the 19th century africalogical social scientific research indicate confirmation of the "Ancient Model" for the early history of Blacks. We also see a movement away from self-published africalogical research, and publication of research, and the publication of research articles on afrocentric themes, to the publication of textbooks.

It was in these books that the paradigms associated with the "Ancient Model" and ASAH were confirmed, and given reliability by empirical research. It was these texts which provided the pedagogic vehicles for the perpetuation of the africalogical normal social science.

The afrocentric textbooks of Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) proved the reliability and validity of the ASAH paradigms. The discussion in these text of contemporary scientific research findings proving the existence of ancient civilizations in Egypt, Nubia-Sudan (Kush), Mesopotamia, Palestine and North Africa lent congruency to the classical literature which pointed to the existence of these civilizations and these African origins ( i.e., the children of Ham= Khem =Kush?).

The authors of the africalogical textbooks reported the latest archaeological and anthropological findings. The archaeological findings reported in these textbooks added precision to their analysis of the classical and Old Testament literature. This along with the discovery of artifacts on the ancient sites depicting Black\African people proved that the classical and Old Testament literature, as opposed to the "Aryan Model", objectively identified the Black\African role in ancient history. And finally, these textbooks confirmed that any examination of references in the classical literature to Blacks in Egypt, Kush, Mesopotamia and Greece\Crete exhibited constancy to the evidence recovered from archaeological excavations in the Middle East and the Aegean. They in turn disconfirmed the "Aryan Model", which proved to be a falsification of the authentic history of Blacks in early times.

The creation of africalogical textbooks provided us with a number of facts revealing the nature of the afrocentric ancient history paradigms. They include a discussion of:

1) the artifacts depicting Blacks found at ancient sites

recovered through archaeological excavation;

2) the confirmation of the validity of the classical and Old

Testament references to Blacks as founders of civilization in Africa and Asia;

3) the presence of isolated pockets of Blacks existing outside Africa; and

4) that the contemporary Arab people in modern Egypt are not the descendants of the ancient Egyptians.


The early africalogical textbooks also outlined the africalogical themes research should endeavor to study. A result, of the data collected by the africalogical ancient history research pioneers led to the development of three facts by the end of the 19th century, which needed to be solved by the afrocentric paradigms:

(1) What is the exact relationship of ancient Egypt, to Blacks in other parts of Africa;

(2) How and when did Blacks settle America, Asia and Europe;

(3) What are the contributions of the Blacks to the rise, and cultural expression ancient Black\African civilizations;

(4) Did Africans settle parts of America in ancient times.

As you can see the structure of Afrocentrism were made long before Boas and the beginning of the 20th Century.In fact , I would not be surprised if Boas learned what he talked about from the early Afrocentric researchers discussed in this post.

As you can see Afro-Americans have be writing about the Global history of ancient Black civilizations for almost 200 years. It was Afro-Americans who first mentioned the African civilizations of West Africa and the Black roots of Egypt. These Afro-Americans made Africa a historical part of the world.

Afro-American scholars not only highlighted African history they also discussed the African/Black civilizations developed by African people outside Africa over a hundred years before Bernal and Boas.

Your history of what you call "negrocentric" or Black Studies is all wrong. It was DuBois who founded Black/Negro Studies, especially Afro-American studies given his work on the slave trade and sociological and historical studies of Afro-Americans. He mentions in the World and Africa about the Jews and other Europeans who were attempting to take over the field.
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Hansberry
There is no one who can deny the fact that Leo Hansberry founded African studies in the U.S., not the Jews.Hansberry was a professor at Howard University.

Moreover, Bernal did not initiate any second wave of "negro/Blackcentric" study for ancient Egyptian civilization. Credit for this social science push is none other than Chiek Diop, who makes it clear that he was influenced by DuBois.

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DuBois
Africalogical study of ancient history
There are four philosophical schools associated with the afrocentric study of ancient history: perennialist, essentialist, existentialist, and progressivist. The taxonomic system we use to classify the various afrocentric philosophical positions and related values affecting afrocentrism are modeled on philosophical developments associated with education.

We can use taxonomies of educational philosophies to discuss any proposed afrocentric curriculum because both education and philosophy are "cultural experiences". Moreover, because afrocentrism seeks to explain and delineate the story of African people, it clearly is a field of study which encompasses all aspects of the culture of Black and African people (Asante, 1990, 1991; Winters, 1994).

The perennialist afrocentrists study the great works. The adherents of this school include Martin Delaney (1978), Cornish and Russwurm (1827), Frederick Douglas (1966), and Edward Blyden (1869). These Afrocentrists see knowledge as truth, which is eternal.

The essentialist afrocentric school emphasize in their writing data that is well established through scientific research. Afrocentrists of this philosophical school include W. E. B. DuBois (1965, 1970), John Jackson (1974), C.A. Winters (1985, 1989, 1991, 1994) and Leo Hansberry (1981). They believe that as new research is published, it should be analyzed to discover how it relates to the ancient history of African and Black people to enrich our understanding of the past.

The existentialist afrocentrists believe that africalogical studies should thrive to teach African people to know more about themselves so we can have a better world. The afrocentric existentialists include J.A. Rogers, Anta Diop (1974, 1991), G.M. James (1954), Marcus Garvey (1966) and A.A. Schomburg (1979).


Research is the foundation of good science, or knowing in general. There are four methods of 1) Method of tenacity (one holds firmly to the truth, because "they know it" to be true); 2) method of authority (the method of established belief, i.e., the Bible or the "experts" says it, it is so); 3) method of intuition (the method where a proposition agrees with reason, but not necessarily with experience); and 4) the method of science (the method of attaining knowledge which calls for self-correction). To explain African origin of the Egyptians, I use the scientific method which calls for hypothesis testing, not only supported by experimentation, but also that of alternative plausible hypotheses that, may place doubt on the original hypothesis.

The aim of science is theory construction (F.N. Kirlinger, Foundations of behavior research, (1986) pp.6-10; R. Braithwaite, Scientific explanation, (1955) pp.1-10). A theory is a set of interrelated constructs, propositions and definitions, that provide a systematic understanding of phenomena by outlining relations among a group of variables that explain and predict phenomena.

Scientific inquiry involves issues of theory construction, control and experimentation. Scientific knowledge must rest on testing, rather than mere induction which can be defined as inferences of laws and generalizations, derived from observation. This falsity of logical possibility is evident in the rejection of the African origin of the Egyptians. These writers base their theories solely on observation--nonscientific knowledge is not science.
Karl Popper in The Logic of Scientific Discovery, rejects this form of logical validity based solely on inference and conjecture (pp. 33-65). Popper maintains that confirmation in science, is arrived at through falsification.

Therefore, to confirm a theory in science one test the theory through regorous attempts at falsification. In falsification the researcher uses cultural, linguistic, anthropological and historical knowledge to invalidate a proposed theory. If a theory can not be falsified through yes of the variables associated with the theory it is confirmed. It can only be disconfirmed when new generalizations associated with the original theory fail to survive attempts at falsification.

In short, science centers on conjecture and refutation. Given 200 years of research in Afrocentrism, our job is to confirm the research into the role of Blacks in ancient history uncovered by the giants in Afrocentric Social Sciences discussed above.

Dr. Winters has written extensively on the ancient history of the African diaspora. He has numerous sites on the web were explains the ancient history of African people. His major work is Afrocentrism: Myth or Science . In Afrocentrism: Myth or Science Dr. Winters provides a detailed discussion of how to study Afrocentrism and provides an intimate and detailed study of the ancient Black civilizations outside Africa in Europe, Asia and the Americas.

The final afrocentric philosophical school is the progressivist. The afrocentric school of progressivism believes that we should have knowledge of the process and futuristic focus on afrocentric studies. The major exponent of this frame of reference is Molefi K. Asante (1991).

In general Diop (1974, 1991) caused an africalogical social scientific revolution because he was able to prove that Egypt was the archetypical civilization for many West Africans. This was an important discovery because almost all of the slaves that were sold in the United States had originally came from West Africa. Verification of the Egyptian origin of West Africans provided African Americans with relationship to the ancient Egyptians.
Moreover, Diop's use of linguistics, and anthropological evidence to confirm the African origin of Egypt eliminated the need for africalogical researchers to use the classical writers to prove the African origin of Egypt (Diop, 1977, 1978, 1981, 1986, 1987, 1988). This finding by Diop has led africalogical researchers to seek a better understanding of African philosophy through an interpretation of Egyptian philosophy.

Moreover, africalogical researchers like Dr.Winters, have also began the reconstruction of the Paleo-African language used by Blacks in prehistoric times (Anselin, 1982, 1982b, 1989; Winters, 1994) so that we will know more about the culture and civilization of the Proto-Africans. Dr. Winters in Before Egypt: The Maa Confederation, Africa's First Civilization, is about the Maa civilization. The Maa civilization existed in the Saharan highlands. The people of Maa founded many civilizations including Egypt, and Sumer.

Dr, Winters in Egyptian Language, Niger-Congo Speakers and the Mountains of the Moon , provides the linguistic evidence that confirms the hypothesis of Cheikh Anta Diop, L. Homburger, M. Delafosse that the Niger-Congo speakers and Egyptians had a common origin. In this book we argue that many Egytians living in the 22 sepats of Upper Egypt spoke Niger-Congo languages including the Bantu Fulani and Mande languages.

Egyptian Languages , provides the genetic, linguistic and archaeological evidence relating to the diverse Niger-Congo speakers who made up segments of the Egyptian nation. Readers of this book will learn that the Niger-Congo speakers originated in the Highland regions of Middle Africa: the Mountains of the Moon ; and that this population which later settled Upper Egypt, formerly belonged to the Ounanian culture.


 -
Clyde Winters

The last major confirmation of the ASAH paradigms was made by Clyde Ahmad Winters (1977, 1979, 1981, 1983a, 1983c, 1983d, 1984, 1985) when he expanded our understanding of the role of Blacks\Africans in Indo-China, India and China; and the ancient literacy of Blacks (1979, 1983d, 1985c, 1986b). Dr. Winters has an extensive background in teaching Social Studies. In the 1990’s Dr. Winters help write the Social Science standards for the Chicago Public Schools. In recent years he has been developing lesson plans for Common Core State Standards in Social Science.


Using linguistic, anthropological and historical evidence, Dr. Winters proved that the earliest cultures of China and Indo-China were founded by Blacks from West Africa and modern Ethiopia (Winters, 1979, 1983d, 1985c, 1986b). In support of this history Dr. Winters has posted over 70 videos on YouTube.

Winters also made it clear that the earliest Japanese were Blacks and that Japanese is related to African languages (Winters, 1979, 1981, 1983a, 1983c, 1984). In addition he was able to prove that the founders of Xia and Shang were of African and Dravidian origin (1983c,1985c).

Using the findings of Wiener in regards to the writing of the Olmecs Winters discovered that the Blacks from West Africa left numerous inscriptions written in the Manding language (Winters, 1977, 1979, 1983a, 1985b) . Winters later discovered that due to the cognition between the Mande writing and ancient scripts used by the Minoans and Indus Valley he could read the Indus Valley Writing and the Linear A inscriptions (1985b).

• The study of Africans in ancient America has been fruitful. Dr. Leo Wiener, in Africa and the Discovery of America was the first to recognize that the ancient civilizations of Mexico had been incluenced by Africans. He was especially sure that the Mande speaking people influenced the religion and civilization of the Aztec and Maya people; and that the writing on the Tuxtla statuette was written in the Mande writing system.

Later Ivan van Sertima wrote an important book which highlighted the influence of Africans in Mexico. In They Came before Columbus, van Sertima discussed the African influence on the Olmec civilization, and the discovery of America by Abubakari, a ruler of the Mali empire in the 1300's A.D. Dr. Winters expands the discussion of Abubakari's voyage to America by discusing the colonies they left in North America and Brazil in his book African Empires in Ancient America.

Dr. Clyde Winters has written extensively on the African origins of the Olmec. He deciphered the Olmec language and since then he has published numerous websites where he discussed the Olmec Kings and their civilization. The most important work of Dr. Winters is Atlantis in Mexico, in this book Dr. Winters provides a detailed account of the migration of the Mande speaking people from Africa to the Americas. He explains that they called themselves Xi (Shi) or Si people and provides an informative discussion of the Mexican traditions regarding the expansion of the Olmec from the Gulf Coast, to the Pacific coast of Mexico.

Atlantis in Mexico will provide any researchers with a wealth of knowledge to understand the African origin of the Olmec. And the contributions of the Xi to the civilizations of Mexico.

Dr. Winters has expanded knowledge about the other Blacks who established colonies in the Americas before Europeans. In African Empires Ancient America,Dr. Winters discussed the Axumite, Mound Builders and other ancient Black Americans.

Proficiency in a language other than English, helped africalogical researchers conduct the normal africalogical social science. It was DuBois' (1965, 1970) and Hansberry's knowledge of German that allowed these afrocentrists to conduct research into the role of Blacks in Egypt and Ethiopia. J.A. Rogers mastered many languages including French and German to prove that Blacks inhabited almost every continent on the globe. Dr. C. A. Winters (1977,1981\1982, 1985, 1991, 1994) had to learn Arabic, Chinese, Malinke, Portuguese, Otomi, Mayan, Swahili, Tamil and Tokharian (Kushana) to conduct his africalogical studies of Blacks in Asia and the Americas. Dr. Wintes used his linguistic knowled to decipher the Olmec, Meroitic and Minoan writing systems. Dr, Winters gives a detailed explanation of his decipherment of Meroitic writing numerous Meroitic inscriptions deciphered and in his book: Meroitic Writing and Literature.

In the 1960's due to the rise of independence in the east African country of Tanzania, Swahili became a language used by africalogical scientists. Swahili terms were used to explain and define the phenomena associated with africalogy. This is one of the reasons that the terms used in the Kwanza ceremonies practiced by blacks are Swahili lexical items (Coleman, 1971).
Swahili is still among africalogical researchers but today Egyptian is recognized as the classical language for africalogical research (Wimby, 1980). Diop (1974,1991) popularized the idea that Egyptian should be used as the classical language for the study of ancient africalogical language and historical studies. As a result, most of the africalogical researchers today concentrate on Egypt and use Egyptian terms to explain the culture and Proto-African language of Africa people (Carruthers, 1977,1980).

Dr. Winters in Afrocentrism: Myth or Science , Has been able to update the literature regarding African civilizations in Asia, Europe and the Americas. This text provides the blueprint necessary for students to understand why the Afrocentric model of history continues to find support from the archaeological, linguistic and anthropological fields of study


This africalogical research by Winters (1981/1982, 1983b, 1983d, 1989a, 1991, 1994) made it clear that the first civilizations in Indo-China and China were founded by Blacks. He has also proved the lie to Hume's (1875) claim that Blacks have "No literacy" and "No letters". . In A Short History of Black People in Ancient Times (Createspace, 2013) and Ancient African History Primer ( Createspace,2014) Dr. Winters provides a comprehensive discussion of the role of African and Black people in the origin and rise of worldwide civilization.



These scholars recognized that the people of ancient Greece, Southeast Asia and Indo-China were African people. When giants in study of Afrocentrism discussed Blacks in Asia they were talking about people of African descent. So when you claim that these civilizations should be outside the study area of Afrocentric scholars you don't know what you're talking about.

These researchers used anthropological, archaeological historical and linguistic evidence to support their conclusions. It is only natural that these well founded hypotheses developed by these scholars can be supported by population genetics.



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Woodson, C.G. & Wesley, C.H. (1972). The Negro in Our History. Washington, D.C. Associated Publisher.


Get up off your knees and learn from the Afro-American scholars who began the study of Blacks in ancient history.



In conclusion, Afrocentrism is a mature social science. A social science firmly rooted in the scholarship of Afro-American researchers lasting almost 200 years. Researchers like Marc Washington, Mike and I are continuing a tradition of scholarship began 20 decades ago. All we are doing is confirming research by DuBois and others, that has not been disconfirmed over the past 200 years.


Aluta continua.....The struggle continues.....

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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^^^^You're a perfect example of why Gates has to walk on egg shells and why the public at large has a hard time accepting the facts about Egypt.

Calling Mike111's psudoscholarship authentic speaks volumes on your level of research and standards.

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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I remember that quote, you have to Remember HLG is a historian and as a History student/major I can tell you first hand that Historians live in their own bubble with their own smug accounts of history being recounted to each other in their echo chambers. Guns Germs and Steel is a good example of this...I can go on but Ill stop for both our sake..

At the same time you cant blame him really for being cautious spreading black history esp. with a mainly non black American audience. If he comes out saying all the Egyptians were black he would risk looking like a radical Afrocentrist...Esp back in the 90-early 2000's when the black Egypt debate was hot and the Eurasian Egypt supporters had more of a chance
I mean look at people like Mike111 and Clyde Winters, and sadly most Afrocentrists dabble somewhat in radical "We Wuz Kangs" type revisonism.

He has done some good I liked his special on the Swahili...cant hate on the brotha too hard lol...

Check this out
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/03/education/can-harvard-s-powerhouse-alter-the-course-of-black-studies.html


It's interesting because the topic of African related - Afrocentric studies is extremely convoluted. Historical revisionism has been applied to everything and yet those who decide to report on Africa or the diaspora, have to walk a really fine line between what is acceptable and what is not due to the general perception. I find myself extremely critical of black scholars, interperetors, researchers, bloggers, etc. more so than that of any other race and have a hard time distinguishing if its because of deep rooted conditioning or higher expectations. This is bad, and is partially the reason why we have Snowdens and HLG. Being discredited as a researcher is one of the worst things that can happen, and Africa is a landmine for that. For instance many people here even often speak on how 'Researcher A', said 'B' but really meant 'C', or is afraid to actually 'D.' It's seems a lot of people figure it's due to racism or even eurocentricity, but it's actually done for security.

I just think it's silly to look at Afrocentric scholars in a different light in general. With that being said, I wouldn't put clyde in the same bubble as Mike111. Dr. Clyde seems to be more of a modern fringe scientist. It's literally just a product of doing what he's been doing for so long. Certain inferences had to be made in the past with little information because there were very little studies accurately focused on Africa(or blacks) back then. It's just another example of how lopsided the evolution of science has been towards Africans. Methods for obtaining historical information has become so streamlined that a fact via theory is established very quickly and efficiently. that's not the same for African studies and global population genetics, due to the lopsided development in African related studies. I don't think Clyde is changing history, however, he's making inferences based on a broad spectrum in snippets of information as would be done in the past. At the very worst if approached correctly, working or even reading studies of that nature is just a waste of time.

There needs to be more conflict within the mainstream Afrocentric community, More perceptions, more Ideas, More hypothesis and More Debates. If you function within the rubrick of scientific criteria, then why seek validation from those who don't share your interest? we would see less reporters or researchers putting out false information if they didn't feel so safe doing so.

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BrandonP
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Afrocentric writers have indeed tended to bungle the case for a black Egypt. But if a mainstream academic like Gates were to step forth, say ancient Egyptians were black (in any sense of the word), and still receive ridicule for it, you have to acknowledge the audience has already made up their minds about the issue. Sure, Afrocentric activists may have given it a bad image. But if people are willing to dismiss actual research like that of Keita out of hand, their aversion must run deeper than simply a negative first impression of Afrocentrics. It's almost like they don't want ancient Egyptians to be considered black.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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While Clyde might not be as ridiculous as Mike in his pseudo-scholarship his stuff is not just "Fringe" claiming The Mande created everything, the Persians, Greeks, etc were black and the Axumites were in the Americas is pseudo Black Revisionist/Supremist hog wash that too many on here seem to Pander to and let slide.

quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I remember that quote, you have to Remember HLG is a historian and as a History student/major I can tell you first hand that Historians live in their own bubble with their own smug accounts of history being recounted to each other in their echo chambers. Guns Germs and Steel is a good example of this...I can go on but Ill stop for both our sake..

At the same time you cant blame him really for being cautious spreading black history esp. with a mainly non black American audience. If he comes out saying all the Egyptians were black he would risk looking like a radical Afrocentrist...Esp back in the 90-early 2000's when the black Egypt debate was hot and the Eurasian Egypt supporters had more of a chance
I mean look at people like Mike111 and Clyde Winters, and sadly most Afrocentrists dabble somewhat in radical "We Wuz Kangs" type revisonism.

He has done some good I liked his special on the Swahili...cant hate on the brotha too hard lol...

Check this out
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/03/education/can-harvard-s-powerhouse-alter-the-course-of-black-studies.html


It's interesting because the topic of African related - Afrocentric studies is extremely convoluted. Historical revisionism has been applied to everything and yet those who decide to report on Africa or the diaspora, have to walk a really fine line between what is acceptable and what is not due to the general perception. I find myself extremely critical of black scholars, interperetors, researchers, bloggers, etc. more so than that of any other race and have a hard time distinguishing if its because of deep rooted conditioning or higher expectations. This is bad, and is partially the reason why we have Snowdens and HLG. Being discredited as a researcher is one of the worst things that can happen, and Africa is a landmine for that. For instance many people here even often speak on how 'Researcher A', said 'B' but really meant 'C', or is afraid to actually 'D.' It's seems a lot of people figure it's due to racism or even eurocentricity, but it's actually done for security.

I just think it's silly to look at Afrocentric scholars in a different light in general. With that being said, I wouldn't put clyde in the same bubble as Mike111. Dr. Clyde seems to be more of a modern fringe scientist. It's literally just a product of doing what he's been doing for so long. Certain inferences had to be made in the past with little information because there were very little studies accurately focused on Africa(or blacks) back then. It's just another example of how lopsided the evolution of science has been towards Africans. Methods for obtaining historical information has become so streamlined that a fact via theory is established very quickly and efficiently. that's not the same for African studies and global population genetics, due to the lopsided development in African related studies. I don't think Clyde is changing history, however, he's making inferences based on a broad spectrum in snippets of information as would be done in the past. At the very worst if approached correctly, working or even reading studies of that nature is just a waste of time.

There needs to be more conflict within the mainstream Afrocentric community, More perceptions, more Ideas, More hypothesis and More Debates. If you function within the rubrick of scientific criteria, then why seek validation from those who don't share your interest? we would see less reporters or researchers putting out false information if they didn't feel so safe doing so.


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-Just Call Me Jari-
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You see thats the thing people are coming around...look at the Black Genesis stuff from Robert Bouval of all people, look at the stuff coming out on the Green Sahara and Population affinities of Egypt

Check out this interview of Bouval, In it the interviewer who I assume is a Caucasian/White Person and a lay resercher says in Response to Bouval's remark the Egypt was the product of Black African Founders..."Well if you look at the statues, big lips etc, they have black African features" Im paraphrasing but he says what we have been saying for years...

Also on a side not some TV shows have Egyptians as black I know HBO's Rome had the Egyptians as mainly black and Tawny...Also interestinlgly the Vikings show(Which is awesome btw) had the Moorish Andalusian Spain as black and Tawny..I was surprised by that...

quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
Afrocentric writers have indeed tended to bungle the case for a black Egypt. But if a mainstream academic like Gates were to step forth, say ancient Egyptians were black (in any sense of the word), and still receive ridicule for it, you have to acknowledge the audience has already made up their minds about the issue. Sure, Afrocentric activists may have given it a bad image. But if people are willing to dismiss actual research like that of Keita out of hand, their aversion must run deeper than simply a negative first impression of Afrocentrics. It's almost like they don't want ancient Egyptians to be considered black.


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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
Afrocentric writers have indeed tended to bungle the case for a black Egypt. But if a mainstream academic like Gates were to step forth, say ancient Egyptians were black (in any sense of the word), and still receive ridicule for it, you have to acknowledge the audience has already made up their minds about the issue. Sure, Afrocentric activists may have given it a bad image. But if people are willing to dismiss actual research like that of Keita out of hand, their aversion must run deeper than simply a negative first impression of Afrocentrics. It's almost like they don't want ancient Egyptians to be considered black.

Absolutely. Especially when the facts and evidence are so overwhelming that it shouldn't be hard to make a convincing case. At some point, "Afrocentric studies" went from serious scholars like Dr Clarke and Dr Ben into the quagmire of "hotepism" meaning cults, fads and fringe fanaticism only loosely based on credible facts. And most of the blame is on the institutions that created these African Studies departments which started out as one thing but have gradually turned into nothing but engines for producing coons and loons. Most of these departments are more interested in promoting intersexionality/homosexuality and subjective feel good white sponsored social justice pshychology as opposed to producing graduates who take on the hard sciences like anthropology and biology so they can become the leaders in African archaeology and all other aspects of African life in the diaspora. Some folks just like to be on the back of the bus arguing with the driver instead of sitting in the drivers seat. And there are quite a few folks who make money of this type of discourse. These facts aren't underground knowledge and yet to many black folks treat history like some underground culture that can be remixed at will into whatever you want.

I mean if an amateur site like this with laypeople can do so much, you have to ask what happened to all the scholars and graduates coming from these African studies courses?

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

I don't think he said that on this show. I read this some time around 2010. HLG has a long history of making dubious comments. He's been cooning. This is why he gets no brownie points for making (what seem to be) some concessions in this new show. He has no choice but to get with the program since the notion of the Africanity of early Nile Valley cultures is becoming more mainstream.

One of HLGs previous documentaries for PBS on African history called "Wonders of the African world" which showed Gates in Egypt asking white folks if the AE were black or not and letting them tell him that no they weren't without him challenging anything. It was seriously ridiculous.

This time around he is not doing that and while not directly addressing the issue, he did say they were black and support the idea in a very broad and generic way.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
"Well if you look at the statues, big lips etc, they have black African features"


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Punos_Rey
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Lets not also forget that "afrocentrist" has become both a strawman and a poisoned well used to discredit any poster/scholar of African descent who posits an African Egypt. Doesn't matter how solid the facts you bring,how rigorously you scrutinize your source material, if you are of African descent you WILL be dismissed as an Afrocentrist. It usually ends the discussion right there while the ones who make the accusation can whitewash whatever civilizations they want and not have theit scholarly integrity(lack thereof) brought into question. Ugh.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
Afrocentric writers have indeed tended to bungle the case for a black Egypt. But if a mainstream academic like Gates were to step forth, say ancient Egyptians were black (in any sense of the word), and still receive ridicule for it, you have to acknowledge the audience has already made up their minds about the issue. Sure, Afrocentric activists may have given it a bad image. But if people are willing to dismiss actual research like that of Keita out of hand, their aversion must run deeper than simply a negative first impression of Afrocentrics. It's almost like they don't want ancient Egyptians to be considered black.

It is clear that you did not read my post. Sure the Afro-Americans who proved that the Egyptians were Black and did not belong to the Academe, but like W.E.B. DuBois they were Harvard trained and no one can claim that DuBois and Anta Diop who took a Phd at Sorbonne University were amateurs. As a result, Eurocentrists and the Academe reject Afrocentrism because they hate the idea that Black and Afican people have a history.

Eurocentric scholars never attack the work of Afrocentric scholars like DuBois, George Jackson, J.A. Rogers and etc. because their research is founded on solid scholarship.

I invite anyone who disagrees with this statement to post the articles and books written by established academics providing counter evidence falsifying the research of the Afrocentric scholars discussed above, or even my own research.

There are few Afrocentric scholars today. Afrocentric scholars do primary research and produce books and articles on the history and anthropology of Black and African people.

Afrocentric scholars accept the ancient model of history that maintains :1) civilization originated in Africa; and 2) Africans took civilization from Africa to Europe and Asia.

First of all , let’s discuss the definition of Afrocentrism. Afrocentrism-is adherence to principles and theories related to the idea that African and World history originated on the African continent and moved outward from Africa through the human agency of Africans speaking related languages and practicing a shared culture, who founded the first civilizations of Africa, the Americas, Europe and Asia.

Afrocentric researchers base their research on the ancient model of history. The ancient model of history was the model of history formed by the Greco-Roman scholars who recognized that Blacks founded civilization and that there were two Kushes one in Asia and the other in Africa.

Afrocentric researchers have never argued that they must reject anthropological and historical ways of knowing simply because these methods were first recognized by Europeans. In 1974, Harun Kofi Wangara, in an interview with Cheikh Anta Diop (Black World, Feb.1974, pp.53-61), recorded Diop's views on researching Afrocentric history. In this interview Diop observed that "…I think that it will be necessary to put together polyvalent scientific teams, capable of doing in-depth studies , for sure, and that's important. It bothers me when someone takes me on my word without developing a means of verifying what I say….We must form a scientific spirit, capable of seeing even the weaknesses of our own proofs, of seeing the unfinished side of our work and of committing ourselves to completing it. You understand? Therefore we should then have a work which could honestly stand criticism, because what we've done would have been placed on a scientific plane".

As a result Afrocentrism has the following characteristics:

 Based on application of science through use of the academic disciplines of
 Anthropology
 Archaeology
 History
 Linguistics
 Knowledge produced by recognizing the early expansion of Kushites, from Africa to other parts of the world.

The goal of Afrocentric social sciences is to provide explanations about real
phenomenon. The heuristic (way of knowing or discovering new ideas) in social science for purposes of understanding the methods used to produce knowledge in Afrocentrism: are anthropology which discovers new ideas by way of ethnography; and history which discovers new ideas by interpreting records relating to the past.


This means that any researcher who uses the ancient model of history to study ancient history and accepts the fact that Africans directly transferred civilization to the rise of the world is an Afrocentric researcher.

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Clyde Winters
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Afrocentricity –is the theorectical perspective found on a African centered consciousness that locates African behaviors within the context of African psychological, cultural and sociological experiences and agency. As a result, it is not the data being used to examine an African phenomenon , it is the approach the researcher uses to illuminate and understand that phenomenon.

Afrocentrism on the otherhand, examines the history of African and Black people using the ancient model of history. These researchers recognize the social science research methods of linguistics, history, anthropology and archaeology as appropriate means to undertstand and illuminate the past of African and Black people.

Afrocentric scholar do not look at every culture in Asia and the Americas as African. They only point too specific civilizations in Asia and the Americas as African, i.e., the Sumerians and Elamites, Xia and Yi-Shang of China, Indus Valley, megalithic civilizations of Southeast Asia, the Lapita culture of the Pacific, and the Olmec civilization of Mexico. All of these people arrived in EurAsia and the Americas after 3000 BC. They point to these civilizations because there is aracheological, textual and linguistic evidence pointing to their direct and recent African origins.

The archaeological, linguistic, anthropological, epigraphic and historical research make it clear that the decendants of the OOA populations did not create and develop the River Valley Civilizations: Sumer, Elam, Indus Valley and Xia China.It was the Kushites who introduced architecture, sciences, agriculture, writing and etc., to ancient China, Sumer-Elam, Minoan Crete and Olmec America. If you don't recognize these people you don't understand the history of the world. Without the Kushites there would be no history to write of these lands.


If you read the work of J.A. Rogers, DuBois and etc. you would know this. You will never understand Afrocentrism until you read authentic Afrocentric research by scholars who were expert in their fields.

The problem with people here is that they don't understand research in a field of study. If you understood research is a field of study, you would know that Afrocentrism is a mature social science which has research paradigms recognized in the past that new Afrocentric scholars either confirm or disconfirm through their research. This is why Eurocentric scholars never attack the work of Afrocentric scholars like DuBois, George Jackson, J.A. Rogers and etc. because their research is founded on solid scholarship.

See this paper on the Afrocentric Social Sciences:

http://olmec98.net/Structure.htm

http://olmec98.net/MakubwaHome.htm

I believe I am the only Afrocentric researcher publishing Afrocentric work today. Since I am writing during this period I am contemporary as is my work.

The Afrocentric pictorial researchers today would naturally be Marc and Mike.

There have never been any mainstream Afrocentric researchers. The Academe is racist and there are no mainstream Afrocentric historians. You can only be an Afrocentric researcher if you can continue the traditions upon which Afrocentric social science was founded. The paradigms of Afrocentric research have not changed. The four afrocentric paradigms are the following:

(1) What is the exact relationship of ancient Egypt, to Blacks in other parts of Africa;

(2) How and when did Blacks settle America, Asia and Europe;

(3) What are the contributions of the Blacks to the rise, and cultural expression ancient Black\African civilizations;

(4) Did Africans settle parts of America in ancient times.

Many negroes writing ancient history today are Egyptocentric. The study of a Black Egypt is one aspect of africanity. And as you point out on ES, people like Keita are not Afrocentric researchers.

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Lets not also forget that "afrocentrist" has become both a strawman and a poisoned well used to discredit any poster/scholar of African descent who posits an African Egypt. Doesn't matter how solid the facts you bring,how rigorously you scrutinize your source material, if you are of African descent you WILL be dismissed as an Afrocentrist. It usually ends the discussion right there while the ones who make the accusation can whitewash whatever civilizations they want and not have theit scholarly integrity(lack thereof) brought into question. Ugh.

This was the point I was making earlier. But while I believe you when you say having visible African ancestry will have you written off as an Afrocentrist, I can vouch from experience that being a white person saying the same thing doesn't guarantee you'll be taken seriously either. You can still be accused of being PC, a SJW, or a "cuck" as the 4chan kids would put it. And I've even had one white woman say I only supported African Egypt to impress black women (thereby implying a sexual motive on my part). But like you said, most of the people objecting to what we have to say have already made up their minds.
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Lets not also forget that "afrocentrist" has become both a strawman and a poisoned well used to discredit any poster/scholar of African descent who posits an African Egypt. Doesn't matter how solid the facts you bring,how rigorously you scrutinize your source material, if you are of African descent you WILL be dismissed as an Afrocentrist. It usually ends the discussion right there while the ones who make the accusation can whitewash whatever civilizations they want and not have theit scholarly integrity(lack thereof) brought into question. Ugh.

This was the point I was making earlier. But while I believe you when you say having visible African ancestry will have you written off as an Afrocentrist, I can vouch from experience that being a white person saying the same thing doesn't guarantee you'll be taken seriously either. You can still be accused of being PC, a SJW, or a "cuck" as the 4chan kids would put it. And I've even had one white woman say I only supported African Egypt to impress black women (thereby implying a sexual motive on my part). But like you said, most of the people objecting to what we have to say have already made up their minds.
If you are white and tell the truth in your research you are not attacked you are just ignored by the Academe like the Afrocentric researchers DuBois, Diop and myself.
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Clyde Winters
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Afrocentric Social Science Revolutions that Changed the Africalogical World View

Considerable progress has been made in the africalogical research of ancient history (DuBois, 1965, 1970; Diop, 1974,1991; Winters 1981\1982, 1991, 1994), classical studies (Parker, 1917, 1918) and the role of Blacks in ancient Indo-China and China (Winters, 1985) over the past 90 years. Marcus Garvey (1966) and DuBois (1965,1970) had a tremendous influence in the study of ancient Black history.

.
 -


Marcus Garvey with the founding of the UNIA attracted many africalogical researchers to his organization. Some of these researchers wrote articles for the Negro World newspaper. These scholars formed the foundation for the africalogical scientific community including C.G Woodson, J. A. Rogers, William Ferris, George W. Parker and Arthur A. Schomberg.

In addition to members of the UNIA playing a prominent role in the precision of prediction of the africalogical paradigm we find that afrocentric researchers belonging to the Hamitic League of the World (HLW), also contributed greatly to the enhancement of the "Ancient Model" and the ASAH paradigms at the turn of the 20th century. John Albert Williams founded the HLW. Two its most prominent members include G. W. Parker (1917,1918) and A.A. Schomberg (1925).
G.W. Parker greatly expanded the ASAH paradigm for classical study by providing a focused study of the role of blacks in Greece. Parker (1917) identified these ancient Afro-Greeks as Pelasgians. He also used linguistics to illustrate that the names of many Greek heroes betrayed there African, not Indo-European origin. In addition, Parker gave us the most detailed discussion of Blacks in India up to his time (Parker, 1918).

The second major confirmation for the "Ancient Model" of history was made by DuBois (1965,1970). In the Negro published in 1915, DuBois explained the African presence in Egypt and ancient Kush and a comprehensive analysis of the West African empires.

W.E.B. DuBois (1924) also firmly placed the presence of Blacks in America as a legitimate research area for africalogical researchers. In The Gift of Black Folks, discussed the Black presence in ancient America, including European references to Pre-Columbian Blacks, and the influence of Africans on the Amerindian religions (DuBois,1924). The confirmation of this paradigm was made by ( Clegg, 1975; Lawrence, 1962; Thompson, 1975; Winters, 1981\1982)

In The World and Africa, DuBois (1965) provides a full explanation of the role of Blacks in the early world. He explains the history of Blacks in China and India (pp.176-200); Blacks in Europe(the Pre-Indo-European Greeks and during the Dark Age of Greece), and Asia Minor (pp. 115-127), and the Egyptian foundation of Grecian thought (pp. 125-126).

The major revolution in the ASAH was the research of Diop (1974, 1991). Diop, a Senegalese expert on Egyptian and African history made important contributions to the ASAH paradigms, including:

1) clarification of the African role in Egypt;

2) proved positively that the West African people formerly lived in close proximity to the Egyptians who were in many cases their ancestors;

3) made Mdu Neter the Egyptian language the classical language for ancient africalogical research; and

4) developed the genetic model as the major paradigm in the ASAH (Diop, 1991).

In general, Diop (1974, 1991) caused an africalogical social scientific revolution because he was able to prove that Egypt was the archetypical civilization for many West Africans. This was an important discovery because almost all of the slaves that were sold in the United States had originally came from West Africa. Verification of the Egyptian origin of West Africans provided African Americans with relationship to the ancient Egyptians.
Moreover, Diop's use of linguistics, and anthropological evidence to confirm the African origin of Egypt eliminated the need for africalogical researchers to use the classical writers to prove the African origin of Egypt (Diop, 1977, 1978, 1981, 1986, 1987, 1988). This finding by Diop has led africalogical researchers to seek a better understanding of African philosophy through an interpretation of Egyptian philosophy. Moreover, africalogical researchers have also began the reconstruction of the Paleo-African language used by Blacks in prehistoric times (Anselin, 1982, 1982b, 1989; Winters, 1994) so that we will know more about the culture and civilization of the Proto-Africans.

The last major confirmation of the ASAH paradigms was made by Clyde Ahmad Winters (1977, 1979, 1981, 1983a, 1983c, 1983d, 1984, 1985) when he expanded our understanding of the role of Blacks\Africans in Indo-China, India and China; and the ancient literacy of Blacks (1979, 1983d, 1985c, 1986b). The major work of Dr. Winters is Afrocentrism: Myth or Science .

To conduct Afrocentric historical and anthropological research Dr. Winters uses the genetic model of historical research. Dr. Winters outlines these methods in his article “ Ancient Afrocentric History and the Genetic Model”, in Egypt and Greece, edited by Molefi Kete Asante and Ama Mazama
.

 -
.
C. Anta Diop is the founder of modern Afrocentricism . Diop (1974,1991) laid the foundations for the Afrocentric idea in education. Diop (1974, 1991) has argued that the genetic model can be used to explain the analogy between ancient African civilizations. There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages (Winters 1989a). Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991). Dr. Winters took these components of the genetic model to explore the history of Black and African civilizations around the world.

Gates, like most Afro-Americans in the Academe are afraid to present an Afrocentric view of African and Black history for fear of losing their jobs or being ostracized by white colleagues.

Many Eurocentrist believe that African-Americans should only write about slavery and leave the writing of ancient history to more "qualified" scholars. Moitt (l989) observed that:"The limitation has come about of the bias in historiography. The central problem is that historians have made plantation slavery and its effects in the Americas their sole preoccupation. And they have persuaded their students to do likewise. The damage this has done is incalculable. Blacks viewed their history and, by extension that of Africa in terms of slavery".(p.358) This is why Gates concentrates in the Great Empires of Africa, of civilizations influenced or recognized by Europeans, instead of using the archaeological evidence to influence his review of African history.

Moitt (l989) believes that this desire to deny blacks a role in ancient history is the root cause of white opposition to Diop. He wrote that: "All of this raises the question of historical methodology and goes to the heart of the matter of Diop's isolation....To what must we attribute this negation of Diop? The negation goes beyond the artificial division of the African continent at the Sahara desert and hinges on Diop's ideas the most contentious of which is that the ancient Egyptians were Blacks. In this respect, the negation is not of Diop alone, but formation, Bantu migration, Islam and the slave trade are seen as major problems in African history, the debate over Egypt is stifled" (Moitt 1989,p.358).

Dr. Winters using linguistic, anthropological and historical evidence, he proved that the earliest cultures of China and Indo-China were founded by Blacks from West Africa and modern Ethiopia (Winters, 1979, 1983d, 1985c, 1986b). The Black Civilizations of Asia are also discussed in this book The Ancient Black Civilizations of Asia.
 -

Winters also made it clear that the earliest Japanese were Blacks and that Japanese is related to Mande/African Languages (Winters, 1979, 1981, 1983a, 1983c, 1984). In addition he was able to prove that the founders of Xia and Shang were of African and Dravidian origin (1983c,1985c).

 -  -

Using the findings of Wiener in regards to the writing of the Olmecs Winters discovered that the Blacks from West Africa left numerous inscriptions written in the Manding language (Winters, 1977, 1979, 1983a, 1985b) . Dr. Winters explains the Olmec-Mande connections in [b]Atlantis in Mexico
and African Empires in Ancient America.

Winters later discovered that due to the cognition between the Mande writing and ancient scripts used by the Minoans and Indus Valley he could read the Indus Valley Writing and the Linear A inscriptions (1985b). Dr. Winters has written a detailed grammar and dictionary of the Indus Valley Writing and the Mande origin of the Minoan Linear A .

 -  -

This africalogical research by Winters (1981/1982, 1983b, 1983d, 1989a, 1991, 1994) made it clear that the first civilizations in Indo-China and China were founded by Blacks. He has also proved the lie to Hume's (1875) claim that Blacks have "No literacy" and "No letters".

Today genetics research is used to support population migrations. Dr. Winters has began to publish numerous articles on on the genetic history of Black and African people.

 -


REFERENCES
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_______.(1982b). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines,no. 2:31-50.

_______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58.

Asante,M.A. (July-August, 1996). "Ancient Truths", Emerge , 66-70.

Asante,M.K. (1990) Kemet,Afrocentricity,and Knowledge. Trenton ,NJ:Africa World Press.

_________ (1991). "The Afrocentric idea in Education",Journal of Negro Education,60(2):170-180.

__________.(December 1991/January 1992). "Afrocentric Curriculum".Educational Leadership, pp.28-31.

Bernal, M. (1996, Spring). The Afrocentric interpretation of history: Bernal replies to Lefkowitz. Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, 86-95.

Bernal,M. (1987). Black Athena. New York: Free Association Press. Volume 1.

________. (1991). Black Athena. New York: Free Association Press. Volume 2.

Blyden, E.W. ( January, 1869). The Negro in ancient history. Methodist Quarterly Review, 71-93.

Blyden, E.W. (1887). Christianity, Islam and the Negro Race. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press.

_____________. (1890). The African Problem and the method for its solution. Washington, D.C.: Gibson Brothers.

_______________.(1905). West Africa before Europe. London: C.M. Phillips.

Clegg, L.H. (1975). Who were the first Americans? The Black Scholar, 7(1), 32-41.

Coleman, B.E. (1971). A history of Swahili, The Black Scholar, 2 (6), 13-25.

Cornish, S. & Russwurm, J.B. (1827). European colonies in America, Freedom Journal, 1.

Carruthers, J. (1977). Writing for Eternity, black book bulletin, 5 (2), 32-35.

Carruthers, J. (1980). Reflections on the history of afrocentric worldview, black book bulletin, 7(1), 4-13, 25.

Delany, M.R. (1978). The origin of races and color. Baltimore, M.D.: Black Classic Press.

Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. (ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook, Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company.

_________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les Nouvelles
Editions Africaines.

__________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa. Chicago: Third World Press.

__________. (1981). A Methodology for the study of migration. UNESCO (Ed.), African Ethnonyms and Toponyms, (pp.87-110). Paris: UNESCO.

___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73.

____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans. ) by Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company.

____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur l'Egyptien ancient et les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Presence
Africaine.
_____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager, Westport:Lawrence
Hill and Company.

Douglas, F. (1966). The claims of the Negro ethnologically considered. In H. Brotz (Ed.), Negro social and political thought (pp. 226-244). New York: Basic Books, Inc., Pub.

DuBois, W.E.B. (1924). The Gift of Black Folks. Boston.

DuBois, W.E.B. (1970). The Negro. New York: Oxford University Press.

DuBois, W.E.B. (1965). The world and Africa. New York : International Publishers Co., Inc.

Ferris, W.H. (1913). The African abroad. 2 vols. New Haven,CT :Tuttle, Morehouse and Taylor.

Garvey, M. (1966). Who and What is a Negro. In H. Brotz (Ed.), Negro social and political thought (pp. 560-562).New York: Basic Books, Inc. Publishers.

Graves, Robert. (1980). The Greek Myths. Middlesex:Peguin Books Ltd. 2 volumes.

Hansberry, L.H. (1981). Africa and Africans: As seen by classical writers (Vol. 2). Washington, D.C.: Howard University Press.

Hopkins, P.E. (1905). A Primer of Facts pertaining to the early greatness of the african race and the possibility of restoration by its descendants-with epilogue. Cambridge: P.E. Hopkins & Com.

Hume, D. (1875). Essays: Moral political and literary. T.H. Green and T.H. Grose. 2 Vols. London.

Jackson, J. (1974). Introduction to African civilization. Secaucus, N.J.: Citadel Press.

James, G.M. (1954). Stolen legacy. New York: Philosophical Library.

Kuhn, T.S. (1996). The structure of scientific revolution. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Lacouperie, Terrien de. (1891). The black heads of Babylonia and ancient China, The Babylonian and Oriental Record, 5 (11), 233-246.

Lawrence, H.G. (1962). African explorers of the New World, The Crisis, 321-332.

Merton, R.K. (1957). Social theory aand social structure. Glencoe, Ill. : The Free Press.

Moitt,B. (1989). "Chiekh Anta Diop and the African Diaspora: Historical Continuity and Socio-Cultural Symbolism". Presence Africaine, no. 149-150:347-360.

Parker,G.W. (1917) . "The African Origin of Grecian Civilization ".Journal of Negro History, 2(3):334-344.

___________. (1981). The Children of the Sun. Baltimore,Md.: Black Classic Press.

Perry, R.L. (1893). The Cushite. Brooklyn: The Literary Union.

Rawlinson, George. (1928).The History of Herodutus. New York : Tudor.

Schomburg, A.A. (March, 1925).The Negro digs up his past. Survey Graphic, 670-672.

Schomburg, A.A. (1979). Racial integrity. Baltimore, M.D.: Black Classic Press.


Thompson, Jr. A.A. (1975). Pre-Columbian [African] presence in the Western Hemisphere, Negro History Bulletin, 38 (7), 452-456.

Williams, G.W. (1869). History of the Negro Race in America. New York: G.P. Putnam.

Wimby, D. (1980). The Greco-Roman Tradition concerning Ethiopia and Egypt, black books bulletin, 7(1), 14-19, 25.

Winters, C.A. (1977). The influence of the Mande scripts on ancient American writing systems", Bulletin l'de IFAN, T39, serie B, no. 2 (1977), pp.941-967.

Winters, C.A. (1979). Manding Scripts in the New World", Journal of African Civilizations, l(1), 80-97.

Winters,C.A. (December 1981/ January 1982). Mexico's Black Heritage. The Black Collegian, 76-84.

Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima, (New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215.

__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18.

_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8.

________.(1983d). "Blacks in Ancient China, Part 1, The Founders of Xia and Shang", Journal of Black Studies 1 (2), 8-13.

________. (1984a). "Blacks in Europe before the Europeans". Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33.

Winters, C.A. (1984b). Blacks in Ancient America, Colorlines, 3(2), 27-28.

Winters, C.A. (1984c). Africans found first American Civilization , African Monitor, l , pp.16-18.

_________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and Present, 2(1):13-19.

__________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization,3(1):1-9.

__________. (1985c). "The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils", Journal of Tamil Studies , no.27, pp.65-92.

__________.(1986). The Migration Routes of the Proto-Mande. The Mankind Quarterly,27 (1), 77-96.

_________.(1986b). Dravidian Settlements in Ancient Polynesia.India Past and Present, 3 (2), 225-241.

__________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements". South Asian Anthropologist, 9(1):33-36.

__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics,18(1):98-127.


__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127.

__________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal, 34(1/2):120-144.

___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l.

----------.(1994). Afrocentrism: A valid frame of reference, Journal of Black Studies, 25 (2), 170-190.

_________.(1994b). The Dravidian and African laguages, International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 23 (1), 34-52.

Woodson, C.G. & Wesley, C.H. (1972). The Negro in Our History. Washington, D.C. Associated Publisher.


.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

I don't think he said that on this show. I read this some time around 2010. HLG has a long history of making dubious comments. He's been cooning. This is why he gets no brownie points for making (what seem to be) some concessions in this new show. He has no choice but to get with the program since the notion of the Africanity of early Nile Valley cultures is becoming more mainstream.

One of HLGs previous documentaries for PBS on African history called "Wonders of the African world" which showed Gates in Egypt asking white folks if the AE were black or not and letting them tell him that no they weren't without him challenging anything. It was seriously ridiculous.

This time around he is not doing that and while not directly addressing the issue, he did say they were black and support the idea in a very broad and generic way.

Thanks for clarifying his more recent views. It seems to me that he is just pandering to the establishment, even now. When he was dismissive regarding the Africanity of AE, he was making sure to say all the right things to score his brownie points at the expense of scholars who supported an African Egypt. And now that the mainstream is slowly turning he's still trying to stay on the safe side. If things like this weren't happening HLG would still be dismissive:

quote:
David Wengrow wins the Antiquity Prize 2014

From the papers published in 2014 the panel of judges chose the article by David and colleagues entitled "Cultural convergence in the Neolithic of the Nile Valley: a prehistoric perspective on Egypt's place in Africa" as the winner.

The article, published in Vol 88, Issue 339 (March 2014), looks at the African origins of Egyptian civilisation which lie in an important cultural horizon, the ‘primary pastoral community’, which emerged in both the Egyptian and Sudanese parts of the Nile Valley in the fifth millennium BC. A re-examination of the chronology, assisted by new AMS determinations from Neolithic sites in Middle Egypt, has charted the detailed development of these new kinds of society.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/calendar/articles/2015-16-news/20160125

I think he's a coward for his bandwagon hopping and I also think he should stop talking about AE population affinities. He's made a mockery of the subject again and again and now he wants to tacitly slide over to our side, thinking we forgot about how he mocked this subject.

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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I remember that quote, you have to Remember HLG is a historian and as a History student/major I can tell you first hand that Historians live in their own bubble with their own smug accounts of history being recounted to each other in their echo chambers. Guns Germs and Steel is a good example of this...I can go on but Ill stop for both our sake..

At the same time you cant blame him really for being cautious spreading black history esp. with a mainly non black American audience. If he comes out saying all the Egyptians were black he would risk looking like a radical Afrocentrist...Esp back in the 90-early 2000's when the black Egypt debate was hot and the Eurasian Egypt supporters had more of a chance
I mean look at people like Mike111 and Clyde Winters, and sadly most Afrocentrists dabble somewhat in radical "We Wuz Kangs" type revisonism.

He has done some good I liked his special on the Swahili...cant hate on the brotha too hard lol...

Check this out
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/03/education/can-harvard-s-powerhouse-alter-the-course-of-black-studies.html

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

I don't think he said that on this show. I read this some time around 2010. HLG has a long history of making dubious comments. He's been cooning. This is why he gets no brownie points for making (what seem to be) some concessions in this new show. He has no choice but to get with the program since the notion of the Africanity of early Nile Valley cultures is becoming more mainstream.


Some time ago I urgently needed the Michael Jordan quote and I couldn't find it. Good to know I'm not the only one who remembers it. And I agree with you that he has his area of expertise and that he's done good work elsewhere.
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I'm not at all surprised by this. I've always found H.L. Gates to be the modern day Frank Snowden except considering how the times are now he has no excuse. I remember reading one of his books below years ago.

 -

The first chapter documents the Nile Valley i.e. Egypt and Nubia with Egypt's black identity being debated. He then goes into the historical conflicts between Egypt and Nubia but notes that there were times of alliance and that the same Tut chest which shows one side of him in his chariot warring with Nubians also show him backed up by Nubian fan bearers.

All in all, he seems very hesitant in fully accepting Egypt's black identity, perahps in fear of being attacked by the Eurocentrics.

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Clink link below to see picture.

https://image.pbs.org/poster_images/assets/Hour_2_Image_2_Aksum_Kingdom.jpg
The Aksum Kingdom: Trade and Ancient Africa | Africa's Great Civilizations

“Between the first and the twelfth centuries, extraordinary events happened in Africa, events that transformed not just the history of the continent but the history of the world.” - Henry Louis Gates, ...

https://ny.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/65020a47-68b4-457d-a4e7-0bf306450605/the-aksum-kingdom-trade-and-ancient-africa/

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Archeopteryx
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quote:
Originally posted by BrandonP:
This was the point I was making earlier. But while I believe you when you say having visible African ancestry will have you written off as an Afrocentrist, I can vouch from experience that being a white person saying the same thing doesn't guarantee you'll be taken seriously either. You can still be accused of being PC, a SJW, or a "cuck" as the 4chan kids would put it. And I've even had one white woman say I only supported African Egypt to impress black women (thereby implying a sexual motive on my part). But like you said, most of the people objecting to what we have to say have already made up their minds.

Seems like the sexual motives are now and then also used by "Afrocentrics" and "(W)abos" in debates on social media.
In one Facebookgroup (maybe it was Bobby Hemmit group) I once saw a debate between a black guy who refuted the notion of a black or African presence in precolumbian Americas, and some "Afrocentrists" or "(W)abos. The "Afrocentrists/Wabos" asked him if he got paid by the "Siberians" (as they called Native Americans) to deny the black presence in ancient Americas or if they maybe gave him women as a reward. So sexual insinuations seem to be not too uncommon on social media.

--------------------
Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist

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