There are hypothetical Canaanite/south Levantine colonies in Egypt. But Afrocentrists won't post those as they conflict with their interests-
"Ghassulian influence have recently been suggested for the painted pottery and clay figurs from Maadi (Tutundzic, 1996; 2001; 2002), and at Buto, in the Western Nile Delta, a Canaanite population living within the Egyptian settlement is well attested (e.g. Faltings & Kohler, 1996; Faltings, 2002). It is striking, that the only two settlements in Lower Egypt where remains of this period have been uncovered so far yielded evidence for connections with Chalcolithic Palestine. But if trade is not the reasons for these relations, then we should consider that groups of Canaanites immigrated into Lower Egypt during the late Chalcolithic." (Hartung, 2004)
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I already stated that I could believe lower Egypt would have more Near Eastern lineages in predynastic times than upper Egypt. If it happens to be true, it doesn't change much fer me. A cline would not be of surprise. However it was mentioned in the article considerable cultural adaptation to Egypt from the contact. The reasons can be for whatever reason, the point is that we know contact and cultural absorption of Egyptian culture from the Canaanites happened.
Eventually Canaanites move into Egypt and establishes itself into Faiyum centuries before this review of genetic data occured. So you have people who conformed to Egyptian culture during the preynastic era, that have entered Egypt. Would they have had an especially difficult time assimilating? What would distinguish them archeologically?
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Except Canaanites didn't adopt much Egyptian culture. Archaeologists have found Egyptian pottery etc., in the south Levant [just like Levant finds in Egypt]: this is commerce/trade, not cultural adoption/assimilation.
"Only one Egyptian-style tomb is known from this time in Israel. This is the Early Bronze Age tomb at Nahal Tillah; but even here the similarities do not extend to the tomb contents." (Smith, 2002)
Someone show the evidence for "Egyptianized" Canaanites. It couldn't have been much, since Egyptian and Canaanite burial practices and religions were distinct. Only a single Egyptian style tomb in Early Bronze Age Israel is known to exist (but its tomb contents as noted are different).
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The Trade Relations of Palestine in the Early Bronze Age Amnon Ben-Tor Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient Vol. 29, No. 1 (Feb., 1986), pp. 1-27
This scholar also makes a very strong argument against the Egyptian colony theory by pointing out Early Bronze Age trading/mining posts in the Sinai were dominated by Canaanite merchants, so it makes no sense Egyptians wouldn't take control of those, but set up their own colonies in Israel:
"This must of course, have been an autonomous Canaan and not a country under Egyptian domination for otherwise it would be difficult to explain the independence of the Canaanite copper-mining colonies in southern Sinai in this period."
The Egyptian colony theory, looks highly speculative at best, and probably falsified.
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The Early Bronze Age I represents the proto-urban period in the southern Levant, which led to the urban revolution that occurred during the Early Bronze Age II (Mazar 1990, 93-94). The proto-urban society was already exposed to Egyptian society and culture, when Egypt established colonial relations with Canaan (e.g. de Miroschedji 2002). The urbanization of Canaan was a secondary process, affected directly by the Egyptian presence and withdrawal in the south of Canaan (Beck 2002, 21; Levy and van den Brink 2002, 18-21). During the Early Bronze Age II-III, settlements grew to cities, taking on public building activities such as fortifications and temples. There are clear indications of the abandonment of small settlements in favor of fortified cities (e.g., the growth of the city of Yarmuth and the abandonment of the neighboring site Hartuv – Mazar _ Miroschedji 1996; for the same process in the Madaba Plains, see Harrison 1997). Signs of organized administration can be seen in town planning, the centralized production of pottery (Greenberg 2001, 195), and redistribution of food as attested to by the granary building at Bet Yerah (Mazar 2002). To date, no evidence for writing in the southern Levant during the Early Bronze Age has been found (Greenberg 2002; Levy _ van den Brink 2002). Nevertheless, writing was used by Mesopotamians and Egyptians, cultures with which Canaan was in contact during this period (Mazar 1990, 135-138). Cultural contact with Mesopotamia is evidenced in finds such as cylinder seals (Ben-Tor 1995), and a stele found in Arad (Amiran 1972). The stele features a schematic figure interpreted as a representation of the death and reincarnation of a fertility god (Amiran 1972, 86-88). Mazar suggests this figure correlates with the Mesopotamian myth of Dumuzi (Mazar 1990, 137). Joffe takes this assumption further, suggesting that “an underlying matrix of pan-western Asian beliefs provided a similar background for religious iconography in Mesopotamia and the southern Levant” (Joffe 2001, 368). Utilization of the Mesopotamian cubit in the Early Bronze Age temples at Megiddo (Milson 1988), is another aspect of this influence. There is abundant evidence of interrelations between Egypt and Canaan, as well as for direct Egyptian presence in the region (Ben-Tor 1982; Braun et al. 2001; Levy et al. 2001; Beit-Arieh 2002). Evidence of these cultural contacts and finds with Egyptian writing make it clear that at least the Canaanite rulers were familiar with writing (e.g. 'En Besor – Schulman 1976; Horvat 'Illin – Braun et al. 2001; Lod – Braun et al. 2001; Nahal Tillah – Levy et al. 1997; Arad – Amiran 1974; Tel Erani – Yeivin 1960; Brandl 1989; Gezer – Brandl 1992, 410 and see Levy et al. 2001, Fig. 22.14 for a summary of Serekh signs from Canaan). They did not need to invent it, therefore, but would only have had to adopt or embrace an existing script. It is interesting to note that petrographic analysis has shown that the bullae from 'En Besor were produced locally, meaning that the Egyptian administrative system was physically located at the site (Schulman 1992, 410). The nature of Egypto-Canaanite relations during the Early Bronze Age I is not agreed upon. While some argue that the Egyptian presence should be interpreted as colonial (e.g. Brandl 1992), others see it as an empirical presence established by military means (e.g. Gophna 1976). In the Early Bronze Age II, the nature of Egypto-Canaanite relations changes (Mazar 1990, 135-136). Evidence for Canaanite export to Egypt is attested to by the numerous “Abydos” storage vessels found in Literacy and Illiteracy in the Southern Levant during the Bronze Ages 69 Egypt (Hennessey 1967, 49-61). The imports from Egypt to Canaan are very limited, indicating the unilateral exchange, from Canaan to Egypt. At the end of the Early Bronze Age II, material from Canaan ceased to appear in Egypt (Levy _ van den Brink 2002, 20-21). The reason behind this change is most likely the establishment of the “Byblos Run”, passing over Canaan (Stager 1992, 40-41). There is little evidence for interaction between Egypt and Canaan during the Early Bronze Age III (e.g. Miroschedji 2002, 46-47). Regardless of the role of Egypt in Canaan, what is important to the current discussion is that there was interaction between the two, and that interaction was not of two equal partners, rather of a core-periphery relationship.
The why and why nots ofwriting: Literacy and illiteracy in the southern Levant during the Bronze Ages:
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: There's no concrete evidence for an Egyptian colony in south Levant. Even the article these Afroloons are posting notes the hypothetical colony is denied by a competing commerce/trade model.
quote: The nature and dynamics of Egyptian-Canaanite interaction during the second half of the fourth millennium B.C. can be categorized by four primary theories/models, none of which necessarily excludes one or more of the others, as they might seem to at first perusal. Rather, these four theories (Andelkovic 1995: 67-72) bring into focus different aspects: - a) naked force, b) economic exploitation, c) colonial presence and d) the exerciseof socio-political power; - of one and the same phenomenon, the Egyptian Protodynastic colony in southern Canaan.
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: Anyway, the hypothetical colony only lasted a century-
"[T]he establishment of an Egyptian colony that had functioned for approximately a century [c. 3150 - 3050 BCE]." ( Yekutieli, 2004)
The colony is denied by some archaeologists because it lasted for only around 100 years. So it seems more likely this was just a trading post. Even if this brief colony did exist, it wouldn't have had a big genetic/cultural impact in the south Levant. Those archaeologists arguing for the colony estimate the colony was no greater than 40 km.
This (as in quote below) is saying occupation was 250-150 years, and that southern Canaan was left highly Egyptianized throughout the contact.
quote: Several scholars have characterized the Egyptian presence in southern Canaan by the terms “colony”, “colonization”, “colonial system”, “colonial elite” etc., but these terms are hardly ever precisely defined. Moreover, the terms are often qualified by quotation marks or employed to signify some other meaning such as “trading colony” or “mercantile colony”. In order to fill a need for a more precise meaning, after reviewing several colony definitions, the term colony par excellence, was introduced (Andelkovic 1995: 71-72). It denotes a non-self-governing, continuous and compact territory in southern Canaan, controlled by the Egyptian, Dynasty 0, Crown during Naqada IIIa1-c1 ca. 3300/3200-3100/3050 B.C (i.e. the end of early, middle, and late phases of EB IB, in terms of Canaanite chronology). During the period southern Canaan was, as Gophna (1995: 265) has noted, ”highly Egyptianized”, or as Porat has suggested (1986/87: 118) “an extension of Egypt and not just under Egyptian influence”.
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Funny how in the above Cas is being contradicted over he is own posts. Much telling how desperate the dude really is.
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: There's no concrete evidence for an Egyptian colony in south Levant. Even the article these Afroloons are posting notes the hypothetical colony is denied by a competing commerce/trade model. Anyway, the hypothetical colony only lasted a century-
"[T]he establishment of an Egyptian colony that had functioned for approximately a century [c. 3150 - 3050 BCE]." ( Yekutieli, 2004)
The colony is denied by some archaeologists because it lasted for only around 100 years. So it seems more likely this was just a trading post. Even if this brief colony did exist, it wouldn't have had a big genetic/cultural impact in the south Levant. Those archaeologists arguing for the colony estimate the colony was no greater than 40 km.
Funny, since it was euro-academics who have stated this to be true. .smh You wrote: "denied by some archaeologists", which indicates that the majority of them doesn't. LOL @ euroloon logic
Please keep posting more ridiculous ****, so we can have a good laugh here. With all that gobbledegook nonsense you post.
quote: New information from almost half a century of excavation and study suggests more detailed and revised correlations for the southern Levant with the Predynastic, Protodynastic and Early Dynastic periods and their Naqada equivalents in Egypt (Kaiser 1957; Dreyer 1998; Hendrickx 1996; 2006; Midant-Reynes 2003).
[…]
Arad, always far off the beaten path, seems especially so during the lifetime of Stratum IV, particularly as that poor village was an unlikely attraction for Egyptians presumably bent on establishing some form of economically-based relationship. However, Arad III—a Late EB I nascent forti ed town—is a much more likely venue for the appearance of Egyptian jars, one of them bearing a royal insignia, especially as it dates to a period which witnessed the most intense Egyptian interaction with the southern Levant (Braun 2003; 2004b; 2004c; van den Brink 2002; van den Brink and Braun 2002; 2004). Its signi cant population would have had considerably more to offer visitors from the Nile Valley, or perhaps Egyptian colonists from Tell es-Sakan (de Miroschedji 2001). Notably, signi cantly more substantial communities than Arad IV—such as Palmahim Quarry, Tel Dalit and Tel Aphek on the Mediterranean Littoral of the southern region—which saw the thrust of that interaction, have yielded little, if any evidence of Egyptian pottery (Braun 2002; 2004c).
—Eliot Braun South Levantine Early Bronze Age chronological correlations with Egypt in light of the Narmer serekhs from Tel Erani and Arad: New interpretations
British Museum Studies in Ancient Egypt and Sudan 13 (2009): 25–48
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: This is what we mean by "Business as usual". They just released mtdna and autosomal data on over 90 mummies and somehow ES members are posting the same thing they have been posting for the last 10 years.....and dumbing everything down to to skin color.
Welp.
What do you think about EEF being almost fixed for the derived solute carrier gene responsible for the greatest amount of difference in skin color between non-EastAsian populations, and what does that suggest about the Abusir Mummies... Or even basal Eurasian for that matter.
Its getting cold in my snowy corner, help a brother out.
The thing is........I dont care about skin color. I put its importance in the same league as genetic variants for Hair curl.
I agree with this, but with folks like the lioness and/ or Cas?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: Also note the Afroloons confirmation bias.
There are hypothetical Canaanite/south Levantine colonies in Egypt. But Afrocentrists won't post those as they conflict with their interests-
"Ghassulian influence have recently been suggested for the painted pottery and clay figurs from Maadi (Tutundzic, 1996; 2001; 2002), and at Buto, in the Western Nile Delta, a Canaanite population living within the Egyptian settlement is well attested (e.g. Faltings & Kohler, 1996; Faltings, 2002). It is striking, that the only two settlements in Lower Egypt where remains of this period have been uncovered so far yielded evidence for connections with Chalcolithic Palestine. But if trade is not the reasons for these relations, then we should consider that groups of Canaanites immigrated into Lower Egypt during the late Chalcolithic." (Hartung, 2004)
Confirmation bias, is where you ignore dark skinned (ancient and modern) Egyptians as native to the region. Not only do you suffer from Confirmation bias, but also Cognitive Dissonance (because deep in your little cowardice heard you know you're wrong.
Royalty: Egyptian archaeological workers stand next to a statue of pharaoh Amenhotep III. The king inherited an empire that stretched from the Euphrates to Sudan
posted
This was posted on Davidski. I am now banned there also. Seems he has a problem with the truth. Not to incite I decided just to quote sections of studies WITHOUT my personal views. He started deleting those also. Now I am banned.
------------- I thought as a European you wanted to know your genetic history. I am citing and referring to published SCIENTIFIC papers and you keep deleting it..
"you don't understand the scientific papers you're quoting, and you're misrepresenting them" .
Are you trying to convince yourself of what you just said or do you really believe that nonsense that came out your mouth?
NO ONE!!! On this forum can debunk what I just said with scientific proof. NONE!! Lie to yourself. One of your better knowledgeable posters just learnt from me that morphologically Villabruna was tropically adapted with closes match to Africa. You guys have been talking Villabruna for how long....lol! You are not on my level David.
I have 100's of research papers in my arsenal. No one on your site can challenge me on these issues.. none!
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Quote by Gioello @ Simon_W Simon, I don't reply to a moron like xyyman who says that Etruscan is linked to Berber. If he/she is an Aegyptian, also if he were a Copt, has no idea of Berber and less of Etruscan, but to you I may say much: 1) Jewish conspiracy? If you add also xyyman you may say a "Jewish -Nigger conspiracy" as I foresaw in the past.
----
Of course the Nuragic and Etruscans are Amazigh Africans. When I started my research about 10 years ago I knew nothing about Nuragic and Etruscan. But I understood Geography very well. And one thing that struck me was how remarkably close Nuragic Sardinia, Etruscan and Africa was. Then I learned ancient Malta had a similar culture. Clearly this was not a coincidence . What puzzled me(started me asking) was why would the Etruscans(from Anatolia as was taught) build a civilization on the "WESTERN" side of the Italian peninsular. It made no Geographic sense. None! Then I understood what was " very similar and to the "West" of Etruscans lands. Then a few miles south west is Carthage in Africa. Then Iberia! I was like wow! What do they " ALL" have in common? All are a few miles from African mainland but geographically VERY distant(as much as 1000mile) from each other. What do we have here? Clearly these were the same people migrating Eastwards and outwards. Also how remarkably close these cultures were to each other AND Ancient Egypt. Then I read Sergio's the Medit Race. And I was blown away. It made so much sense. Then the aDNA started coming out. Me having a strong science background also, caught on. I was floored to see the precise correlation of genetics and what scientist like Sergio and Evans proclaimed.
It doesn't matter how it is spun. The truth is too obvious. Europeans are depigmented Africans. It doesn't matter how much you self-denial there is. And the illusion some want to create. It is undeniable. Any objective logic thinking person will realize the truth. Continue lying to yourselves.
----- The papers are: 1.Origins and Evolution of the Etruscans’ mtDNA(2013) - David Caramelli4, Guido Barbujani 2.The Etruscans: a population-genetic study.(2004) - Caramelli D and Barbujani. 3.Minoan/Crete Origin(2013) George Stamatoyannopoulos
>>>>>>>
This is from the 2004 paper by Caramelli and Barbujani(2004), TABLE:
This is from the recent 2013 study on Etruscans, quote::
We could obtain amplifiable DNA from 14 Etruscan specimens. Four of them, from Tarquinia, were analyzed in 2004 but were still unpublished.
Comparisons with 52 modern populations in the TUS and EUR datasets (listed in Table S2) show that 11 of these sequences are shared with at least one of 4,910 individuals from Western Eurasia and the Southern Mediterranean shore (Africa!!!!!)(Table S1). …..
This from the Minoans study 2013 George Stamatoyannopoulos
Supplementary Figure S2. Geographical interpolation of shared mtDNA HVS-1 lineages. The blue gradient represents the percentage of shared lineages for Minoan haplotypes.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: There's no concrete evidence for an Egyptian colony in south Levant. Even the article these Afroloons are posting notes the hypothetical colony is denied by a competing commerce/trade model.
quote: The nature and dynamics of Egyptian-Canaanite interaction during the second half of the fourth millennium B.C. can be categorized by four primary theories/models, none of which necessarily excludes one or more of the others, as they might seem to at first perusal. Rather, these four theories (Andelkovic 1995: 67-72) bring into focus different aspects: - a) naked force, b) economic exploitation, c) colonial presence and d) the exerciseof socio-political power; - of one and the same phenomenon, the Egyptian Protodynastic colony in southern Canaan.
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: Anyway, the hypothetical colony only lasted a century-
"[T]he establishment of an Egyptian colony that had functioned for approximately a century [c. 3150 - 3050 BCE]." ( Yekutieli, 2004)
The colony is denied by some archaeologists because it lasted for only around 100 years. So it seems more likely this was just a trading post. Even if this brief colony did exist, it wouldn't have had a big genetic/cultural impact in the south Levant. Those archaeologists arguing for the colony estimate the colony was no greater than 40 km.
This (as in quote below) is saying occupation was 250-150 years, and that southern Canaan was left highly Egyptianized throughout the contact.
quote: Several scholars have characterized the Egyptian presence in southern Canaan by the terms “colony”, “colonization”, “colonial system”, “colonial elite” etc., but these terms are hardly ever precisely defined. Moreover, the terms are often qualified by quotation marks or employed to signify some other meaning such as “trading colony” or “mercantile colony”. In order to fill a need for a more precise meaning, after reviewing several colony definitions, the term colony par excellence, was introduced (Andelkovic 1995: 71-72). It denotes a non-self-governing, continuous and compact territory in southern Canaan, controlled by the Egyptian, Dynasty 0, Crown during Naqada IIIa1-c1 ca. 3300/3200-3100/3050 B.C (i.e. the end of early, middle, and late phases of EB IB, in terms of Canaanite chronology). During the period southern Canaan was, as Gophna (1995: 265) has noted, ”highly Egyptianized”, or as Porat has suggested (1986/87: 118) “an extension of Egypt and not just under Egyptian influence”.
It says "several scholars" support that theory, denied by other archaeologists as I've shown. What you just quoted is disputed and pretty much falsified by the 1986 scholar I posted (can you rebut his argument?) Confirmation bias just has you choose certain sources over the others, without even looking at the latter. That's why Afrocentrism is a pseudo-history, you don't even engage sources with different (counter) arguments or views that conflict with your own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_biasPosts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Confirmation bias, is where you ignore dark skinned (ancient and modern) Egyptians as native to the region.
No, that's just a straw man. I never said dark/choclate brown native Egyptians didn't exist - what I said is they are the minority. These don't interest me, only the average/typical does.
An example of Afroloon deception is you spamming a single art piece of chocolate brown Amenhotep III-
Now observe the art of Amenhotep III that Afronuts don't spam (why? because they're all lighter):
- Not chocolate brown, but a lighter reddish-brown.
Another lighter brown (not chocolate brown)
Other examples on google include even lighter than these two.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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"That's why Afrocentrism is a pseudo-history, you don't even engage sources with different (counter) arguments or views that conflict with your own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias"
Coming from the same person who digs his head in the sand and clings to a 1986 study when directly contradicted by archaeological evidence and newer studies (i.e. the real meaning of falsification which you blundered earlier) that is rich!
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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- Not chocolate brown, but a lighter reddish-brown.
What about the fact that millions of blacks in America and Europe are as "light" as this king?
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Here is one Picture from Donald B Redford’s book : “Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times Donald B. Redford”, page 200, that I posted years ago in Rastalivewire website : Two canaanites (1400 BC) HEADMEN and they are obviously black : http://tinypic.com/20ich39.jp
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Confirmation bias, is where you ignore dark skinned (ancient and modern) Egyptians as native to the region.
No, that's just a straw man. I never said dark/choclate brown native Egyptians didn't exist - what I said is they are the minority. These don't interest me, only the average/typical does.
An example of Afroloon deception is you spamming a single art piece of chocolate brown Amenhotep III-
Now observe the art of Amenhotep III that Afronuts don't spam (why? because they're all lighter):
- Not chocolate brown, but a lighter reddish-brown.
Another lighter brown (not chocolate brown)
Other examples on google include even lighter than these two.
Piece of trash, you lose again. Euroloon born loser. Posting alternative facts and faded / filtered images. lol TYPICAL eurocentric-clown!
quote: One of Amenhotep III’s greatest building achievements was the Temple of Amun, now in modern day Luxor.
Any person with common sense will understand that the dark complexion was natural to the people, since they originated from the South.
But even the Levantines had dark complexion, so where does that leave you? lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: It's funny how you keep posting a white supremacist, eugenicist like Carleton Coon, yet accuse people of being Afrocentric (Africa-Centered) as if that is a bad thing.
If you want Coon worship go to a silly place like Anthroscape, where they treat his work as infallible. I merely quote Coon where his work has proven to be reliable, not all of it obviously is. He made mistakes and got things wrong, other things though he's still considered a good source for information. Howells (1989) wrote Coon's work is "still regarded as a valuable source of data"; his work is especially considered useful for his studies on human adaptation and his 1965 and 1982 books are informative for things like skin colour, hair texture etc., I still quote them. You still find those books cited/referenced in modern physical anthropology studies.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: "That's why Afrocentrism is a pseudo-history, you don't even engage sources with different (counter) arguments or views that conflict with your own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias"
Coming from the same person who digs his head in the sand and clings to a 1986 study when directly contradicted by archaeological evidence and newer studies (i.e. the real meaning of falsification which you blundered earlier) that is rich!
Show me what falsifies the argument made by the 1986 scholar I quoted. So Egyptians had mass influence or even control of the south Levant with a military colony with a large number of settlers, but not the Sinai? Makes no sense. Furthermore you missed the other (more recent source) I posted arguing for a Canaanite migration/colonisation into Lower Egypt during the Chalcolithic... Should we take that seriously too? Funny how Afrocentrists will ignore the latter, but support an Egyptian colony in Levant. A Canaanite colony in Egypt isn't in their interests/politics, so they ignore it, but they support an Egyptian colony in south Levant - with no/flimsy evidence. Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: It's funny how you keep posting a white supremacist, eugenicist like Carleton Coon, yet accuse people of being Afrocentric (Africa-Centered) as if that is a bad thing.
If you want Coon worship go to a silly place like Anthroscape, where they treat his work as infallible. I merely quote Coon where his work has proven to be reliable, not all of it obviously is. He made mistakes and got things wrong, other things though he's still considered a good source for information. Howells (1989) wrote Coon's work is "still regarded as a valuable source of data"; his work is especially considered useful for his studies on human adaptation and his 1965 and 1982 books are informative for things like skin colour, hair texture etc., I still quote them. You still find those books cited/referenced in modern physical anthropology studies.
You are so stupid it is sad and funny at the same time! Coon is RUBBISH!!! All you get from him is fragmentation. I clearly showed that his sources are unreliable.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: "That's why Afrocentrism is a pseudo-history, you don't even engage sources with different (counter) arguments or views that conflict with your own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias"
Coming from the same person who digs his head in the sand and clings to a 1986 study when directly contradicted by archaeological evidence and newer studies (i.e. the real meaning of falsification which you blundered earlier) that is rich!
Show me what falsifies the argument made by the 1986 scholar I quoted. So Egyptians had mass influence or even control of the south Levant with a military colony with a large number of settlers, but not the Sinai? Makes no sense. Furthermore you missed the other (more recent source) I posted arguing for a Canaanite migration/colonisation into Lower Egypt during the Chalcolithic... Should we take that seriously too? Funny how Afrocentrists will ignore the latter, but support an Egyptian colony in Levant. A Canaanite colony in Egypt isn't in their interests/politics, so they ignore it, but they support an Egyptian colony in south Levant - with no/flimsy evidence.
Furthermore you missed the other (more recent source) I posted arguing for a Canaanite. (2009, 2010).
A Semitic slave. Ancient Egyptian figurine. Hecht Museum, Haifa (no date and location given)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: You are so stupid it is sad and funny at the same time, Eurocentric hog! Coon is RUBBISH AND SO ARE YOU!!!
I already debunked Oshun on this. There is no such thing as "Eurocentrism". Afrocentrism is a recognised pseudo-history/pseudo-science, but "Eurocentrism" isn't. When Afrocentrists call people "Eurocentrists" they're like Christian fundamentalists who turn around and call Atheists religious. Do you know how stupid you look?
No one has ever said Europeans founded AE civilization, nor has anyone describe the average AE as white [Doug loves though to set up this straw man]. So who exactly is a "Eurocentrist"? Europe has never entered the discussion about AE culture, archaeology, bio-anthropology etc. So I'm this magical "Eurocentrist" who is not even talking about Europe. Ok. Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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So no claim was made into European / Northeast African cluster? Go fool someone else dude.
quote:Originally posted by Cass/:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: You are so stupid it is sad and funny at the same time, Eurocentric hog! Coon is RUBBISH AND SO ARE YOU!!!
I already debunked Oshun on this. There is no such thing as "Eurocentrism". Afrocentrism is a recognised pseudo-history/pseudo-science, but "Eurocentrism" isn't. When Afrocentrists call people "Eurocentrists" they're like Christian fundamentalists who turn around and call Atheists religious. Do you know how stupid you look?
No one has ever said Europeans founded AE civilization, nor has anyone describe the average AE as white [Doug loves though to set up this straw man]. So who exactly is a "Eurocentrist"? Europe has never entered the discussion about AE culture, archaeology, bio-anthropology etc. So I'm this magical "Eurocentrist" who is not even talking about Europe. Ok.
This one is comedy central, please keep entertaining:
Definition of Eurocentric
quote: : centered on Europe or the Europeans; especially : reflecting a tendency to interpret the world in terms of European or Anglo-American values and experiences
quote: Eurocentrism is a particular case of the more general phenomenon of ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism refers to the regard of one's own ethnic group or society as superior to others. Other groups are assessed and judged in terms of the categories and standards of evaluation of one's own group. Eurocentrism, therefore, is defined as a thought style in which the assessment and evaluation of non-European societies is couched in terms of the cultural assumptions and biases of Europeans and, by extension, the West. Eurocentrism is a modern phenomenon and cannot be dissociated from the political economic and cultural domination of Europe and, later, the United States. It may be more accurate to refer to the phenomenon under consideration as Euroamericocentrism. Eurocentrism is an important dimension of the ideology of modern capitalism ( Amin 1989 ) and is manifested in both the daily life of lay people and the professional lives and thought of sociologists and other social scientists. Furthermore, although Eurocentrism originates in Europe, as a thought style it is not confined to Europeans or those in the West. Eurocentrism in sociology is defined as the assessment and evaluation of European and other societies from a decidedly European (read also American) point of view. The European point of view is founded on concepts derived from European philosophical traditions and popular discourse ...
During most of the last two centuries,the prevailing popular view of world history held that a mainstream of facts could be identified in the flood of events taking place since the dawn of humanity. Essentially, this mainstream coincided with the history of Europe and its antecedents and successors—all the heirs and transmitters of civilization. The source of this stream of facts was located in Egypt and the Near East, and via Greece and Rome it slowly flowed westward to medieval western Europe. In the course of two colonization waves—the first starting in 1450, the second in 1870—it finally came to encompass the whole planet.
[...]
FIVE LEVELS OF EUROCENTRISM
The mainstream principle reveals a broader tendency— namely, to perceive one’s own culture as the center of everything and other cultures as its periphery. This tendency is called ethnocentrism.
[...]
--Dr. Antoon De Baets History Dept., Univ. of Groningen,
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:I agree with this, but with folks like the lioness and/ or Cas?
I have enough self control to simply not reply to their posts. Neither of them are saying anything NEW based on the screenshots of the new data. They are only repeating the same thing that has been seen here for the past 10 years. If I want to talk about the same stuff we have been going over since 2007 I would have done so in a different thread. You and Lioness are like 2 peas in a pod. Every time she post, you post.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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No one has ever said Europeans founded AE civilization, nor has anyone describe the average AE as white [Doug loves though to set up this straw man]. So who exactly is a "Eurocentrist"? Europe has never entered the discussion about AE culture, archaeology, bio-anthropology etc. So I'm this magical "Eurocentrist" who is not even talking about Europe. Ok. [/QB]
You've heard of the movie Exodus, Ten Commandments, Cleopatra, etc etc ??
The perception suggested is that a Dynastic "Race" founded Egypt and they resembled tanned Europeans
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^ ignoring the cunt above.
@Oshun. I am not sure I understand your question. But I will take a shot. Are you assuming that mtDNA L is the ONLY African lineage? You need to understand the PhyloTree and the age of these lineages. IIRC U, is close to 35K years old, I, J H all are greater than25,000years old. This study is taken from samples less than 10,000year old. In other words the age of these lineages is much older than the INCEPTION of Agriculture and these lineages are still found in Africa today. Furthermore YOUNGER subclades is not expected to be found in Africa which what we observe. Because these mutations giving rise to those sub-clades took place OUTSIDE of Africa long after the parental clades left Africa. Eg Kenyans carry most of the BASAL clades found in the New Kingdom AEians. YOU will NOT observe young sub-clades *even less than 10,000yo* in AEians because there was never back-migration.
Wait, So you think all those subclades are going to be ANCESTRAL? You dont understand that when that study is published nearly all of them will be DERIVED downstream subclades!
Let me guess...you think this DNA from Sudan is from Actual remains that are ANCESTRAL for DE* and F*
You dont even know how this "DNA THING" WORKS! SMFH YOu think MOTA was just plain old ancestral E1B1* ?
@ XYYMAN - My question still stands. You are calling these lineages "African" based off the idea that they are ancestral/basal mtdna lineages. Will your stands be reevaluated when the lineages are extremely downstream?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:I agree with this, but with folks like the lioness and/ or Cas?
I have enough self control to simply not reply to their posts. Neither of them are saying anything NEW based on the screenshots of the new data. They are only repeating the same thing that has been seen here for the past 10 years. If I want to talk about the same stuff we have been going over since 2007 I would have done so in a different thread. You and Lioness are like 2 peas in a pod. Every time she post, you post.
You are right, and I know I should not respond to them.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:I agree with this, but with folks like the lioness and/ or Cas?
I have enough self control to simply not reply to their posts. Neither of them are saying anything NEW based on the screenshots of the new data. They are only repeating the same thing that has been seen here for the past 10 years. If I want to talk about the same stuff we have been going over since 2007 I would have done so in a different thread. You and Lioness are like 2 peas in a pod. Every time she post, you post.
you are not very sharp are you?
Look at my rebuttal to Cass, middle of this page posted 12:48 PM
No one has ever said Europeans founded AE civilization, nor has anyone describe the average AE as white [Doug loves though to set up this straw man]. So who exactly is a "Eurocentrist"? Europe has never entered the discussion about AE culture, archaeology, bio-anthropology etc. So I'm this magical "Eurocentrist" who is not even talking about Europe. Ok.
You've heard of the movie Exodus, Ten Commandments, Cleopatra, etc etc ??
The perception suggested is that a Dynastic "Race" founded Egypt and they resembled tanned Europeans [/QB]
Except the Dynastic Race Theory and Hamiticism does not concern Europe, but south-west Asia. In fact, if you read the old anthropologists and archaeologists who supported Hamiticism like Seligman, they argued proto-Hamites spread from a homeland either in Arabia or southern Levant into Africa, not even the north like Anatolia.
So how is the Dynastic Race Theory or Hamiticism "Eurocentric" when its arguing ancient Egyptian civilization was built by Egypt's closest geographical neighbours who were predominantly dark haired, brown skinned etc. Hardly a "Eurocentric" or "white supremacist" theory. lol.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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No one has ever said Europeans founded AE civilization, nor has anyone describe the average AE as white [Doug loves though to set up this straw man]. So who exactly is a "Eurocentrist"? Europe has never entered the discussion about AE culture, archaeology, bio-anthropology etc. So I'm this magical "Eurocentrist" who is not even talking about Europe. Ok.
You've heard of the movie Exodus, Ten Commandments, Cleopatra, etc etc ??
The perception suggested is that a Dynastic "Race" founded Egypt and they resembled tanned Europeans
Except the Dynastic Race Theory and Hamiticism does not concern Europe, but south-west Asia. In fact, if you read the old anthropologists and archaeologists who supported Hamiticism like Seligman, they argued proto-Hamites spread from a homeland either in Arabia or southern Levant into Africa, not even the north like Anatolia.
So how is the Dynastic Race Theory or Hamiticism "Eurocentric" when its arguing ancient Egyptian civilization was built by Egypt's closest geographical neighbours who were predominantly dark haired, brown skinned etc. Hardly a "Eurocentric" or "white supremacist" theory. lol.
Do you want us to dig up your eurocentric loon claims on Mansa Musa etc?
Anyway:
He cleared the Delta of the Cushites (Ethiopians) in 667/666 BC and the Cushite ruler, Taharqa, fled to No-Amon.
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Amon, or Amen
(the mysterious ), an Egyptian divinity, whose name occurs in that of No-amon. ( Nahum 3:8 ) Amen was one of the eight gods of the first order and chief of the triad of Thebes. He was worshipped at that city as Amen-Ra, or "Amen the Sun."
Bibliography Information
Smith, William, Dr. "Entry for 'Amon, or Amen'". "Smith's Bible Dictionary". . 1901.
Nahum 3:9 "Ethiopia and Egypt were her strength, and it was infinite".......? lol
So how is the Dynastic Race Theory or Hamiticism "Eurocentric" when its arguing ancient Egyptian civilization was built by Egypt's closest geographical neighbours who were predominantly dark haired, brown skinned etc. Hardly a "Eurocentric" or "white supremacist" theory. lol.
The suggestion is that Africans are incapable of producing an "advanced" civilization and that it came about from near eastern forebears who resembled Europeans in hair and features but just had a suntan
The suggestion is that the Egyptians who influenced the Greeks in architecture and other fields were more similar to Europeans than they were to other Africans. THis is beyokus current theory,
initial post:
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
[/QUOTE]
beyoku is a covert Cass operative
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: Show me what falsifies the argument made by the 1986 scholar I quoted. So Egyptians had mass influence or even control of the south Levant with a military colony with a large number of settlers, but not the Sinai? Makes no sense. Furthermore you missed the other (more recent source) I posted arguing for a Canaanite migration/colonisation into Lower Egypt during the Chalcolithic... Should we take that seriously too? Funny how Afrocentrists will ignore the latter, but support an Egyptian colony in Levant. A Canaanite colony in Egypt isn't in their interests/politics, so they ignore it, but they support an Egyptian colony in south Levant - with no/flimsy evidence.
The hell are you talking about???? Egypt long had active interests in Sinai since the early stages of the Old Kingdom if not even before that.
quote:Although there is evidence for sporadic Egyptian involvement in exploiting the minerals of Sinai since Predynastic times, the earliest king attested at Wadi Maghara is the Dynasty III ruler, Djoser Netjerikhet, owner of the Step Pyramid at Saqqara. A relief found at Wadi Maghara depicts the king standing beside a goddess. His organised mining activity there is considered to be one of most significant developments of the king’s reign. Djoser’s successor Sekhemkhet continued the expeditions to Sinai and a famous rock-cut inscription found on a cliff above the valley shows the king wearing a white crown and smiting a Bedouin captive. This inscription was originally attributed to Semerkhet of Dynasty I, but later found to be that of Sekhemkhet after his pyramid was found at Saqqara in the 1950s. The inscription was first discovered by the British explorer Palmer in 1868. When WM Flinders Petrie visited Sinai in 1904-5 he found no fewer than twelve reliefs in the Wadi Maghara.
Another king to leave evidence at Wadi Maghara was Sanakht, whose position in Dynasty III is still unclear. Relatively little is known about Sanakht, except that he seems to have been buried in a large mud-brick tomb at Beit Khallaf, north of Abydos in Upper Egypt. The most significant monument attributable to Sanakht is the pair of rock-cut inscriptions here – one showing the king wearing the white crown preceded by the standard of Wepwewet and in the other the king wears a red crown and stands in the pose of smiting a captive (now lost). The king’s Horus name is depicted in a serekh and a fragment of vertical inscription accompanying the scene contains the oldest known reference to Turquoise (mefkat).
The name given to the Wadi Maghara in later inscriptions is ‘the turquoise terraces’. The main seam of turquoise-bearing rock lay about half-way up the cliff and the workings consisted of galleries with a small opening on the cliff face. Other Old Kingdom rulers whose names appear in the wadi are: Khufu, described as “smiting the tribesmen” as he accompanies the deities Wepwawet and Thoth; Snefru; Sahure who is described as “smiting the Mentju and all foreign lands”; two of Nyuserre with mentions of Horus and Thoth; and Menkauhor as well as three texts of Djedkare-Isesi, one which records an expedition’s arrival at the “Terraces of the Turquoise” during the year after the third cattle census. A Dynasty VI tablet contains a text of Pepi I, dating to the year after the eighteenth cattle census, and an inscription of Pepi II which dates to the year of the second cattle census. There are also several Old Kingdom Grafitti by officials and administrators of the mines.
Three inscriptions of the Middle Kingdom ruler Amenemhet III, who contributed to the construction of the temple at Serabit el-Khadim can also be found here which mention expeditions in Year 2 of his reign with the opening of new turquoise galleries. The King is depicted before Hathor and Thoth and numerous expedition members are listed, giving their names and titles. Three more texts date to year 6 of Amenemhat IV, while the remaining Middle Kingdom inscriptions include several hieroglyphic texts and hieratic graffiti. A Dynasty XII stela (no. 500) is situated to the north of Maghara. From the New Kingdom there is evidence of an expedition sent by Tuthmose III.
The main Old Kingdom settlement at Maghara lay on the summit of a small hill in Wadi Iqna, where 125 roughly constructed stone structures were found, together with the presence large amounts of wood ash, Old Kingdom potsherds and a copper-boring tool. In 1987 Chartier-Raymond excavated a six-roomed house and found pottery-sherds dating from the Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period. The fortified settlement was accessed by a stone staircase on the northern side of the hill and a long stone wall probably formed a defense against the hostile bedouins depicted in the smiting scenes. At the the western foot of the hill numerous Old Kingdom pottery sherds were found. To the west of this area there are some well-built stone structures with smoothed walls, which were found to contain some turquiose as well as large quantities of copper slag and smelting waste. Crucible fragments, hammerstones, used for crushing ores, a broken ingot mold, as well as numerous Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom pottery fragments were also found.
The history of Wadi Maghara goes right back to prehistoric times, but the place is most important to us today for its documentation of the Pharaonic mining expeditions dispatched by the early rulers to this ‘foreign’ land. Not only the agents of the kings, but the mining chiefs and even the labourers were eager to write stories of their victories and their hardships on the rocks. Some of the reliefs remain on the rocks of the wadi, others are now in various museums but many have been damaged by later attempts at mining.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Do you want us to dig up your eurocentric loon claims on Mansa Musa etc?
I posted something around 5 years ago on it. If I remember correctly, what I said is Malian state religion was Islam, but this obviously was not an indigenous faith to Mali, but brought in by Arabs. I then said, a 14th and 15th century Manuscript, seems to depict Mansa Musa (and another king) as an Arab. He don't look black African, nor do some of the other kings.
Who can deny this? Do these look black to you?
Kankan Moussa, King of Mali
Source: Mecia de Villadeste, map from a Catalonian atlas, 1413.
Musa I of Mali, King of Mali
Source: Catalan Atlas of the known world, drawn by Abraham Cresques, 1375.
Whatever the case, I never said these were Europeans, but possibly Arabs.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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You do realise Mali Kings themselves claimed descent from Arabs?
"Through the oral tradition of Griots, The Keita dynasty from which nearly every Mali emperor came traces its lineage back from Lawalo, one of the sons of Bilal, the faithful muezzin of Islam's prophet Muhammad, which was said to have migrated into Mali and his descendants establishing the ruling Keita Dynasty through Maghan Kon Fatta, father of Sundiata Keita." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#Pre-Imperial_MaliPosts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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posted
You have plenty of Africans today who claim descent from Arabs, Jews, Persians etc. No different from Ancient Greeks who claimed descent from Herakles or any other legendary/esteemed figure or group of people. A claim does not a fact make.
Also, one can be an Arab "culturally" without being Semitic in origin at all. As such you have numerous black Africans referred to as "Arabs" even today due to living in Arab countries. But you actually do know this yet are trying all types of circus acts to get around it.
Btw going back to your prancing of Hamiticisim I'm surprised (not really) that you danced around OTHER anthropologists who were fans of the Hamitic Hypotheses like Giuseppe Sergi...I wonder why?
quote: Later scholars expanded on these ideas; the most influential was the Italian race theorist Giuseppe Sergi. In his book The Mediterranean Race (1901) Sergi argued that there was a distinct Hamitic racial group which could be divided into two sub-groups: the northern Hamites, which comprised Berbers, Toubou, Fulani and the Guanches; the Eastern branch, which comprised Egyptians, Nubians, Ethiopians, Oromo, Somali, and Tutsis. Some of these groups had "lost their language" and so had to be identified by physical characteristics. In Sergi's theory, the Mediterraneans were the "greatest race in the world", and had expanded north and south from the Horn of Africa, creating superior civilizations.Sergi described the original European peoples as "Eurafricans". The ancient Greeks and Italians were born from "Afro-Mediterraneans" who migrated from western Asia and had originally spoken a Hamitic language before the advent of Indo-European languages
Still a bunk theory but if we're going to talk about it we should be honest about all its facets. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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You do realise Mali Kings themselves claimed descent from Arabs?
"Through the oral tradition of Griots, The Keita dynasty from which nearly every Mali emperor came traces its lineage back from Lawalo, one of the sons of Bilal, the faithful muezzin of Islam's prophet Muhammad, which was said to have migrated into Mali and his descendants establishing the ruling Keita Dynasty through Maghan Kon Fatta, father of Sundiata Keita." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#Pre-Imperial_Mali
Imagine how Barack Obama would look given his black father same as Bilal had but if he also had an Arab mother, perhaps brown skinned as you have been talking about like Bilal did. (If we are to believe that was the real ancestry and not just a myth designed to legitimize Islamic authority through a suggested blood connection to Mecca)
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
My point is Arab merchants/travellers brought Islam to Mali, sometime around the 10th-11th century:
"Gao is mentioned as an important trade center by the ninth-century Arabic chronicler al-Yaʿqubī (d. 897), and there is archaeological and epigraphic evidence of a Muslim presence in Gao by the eleventh century [Arabic Medieval Inscriptions from the Repulic of Mali, 2003, Oxford University Press]." (Hall, 2011)
I've never argued for large-scale mixture, but some Arabs did admix with the locals and those locals were not commoners, but the elites:
"Islam remained for centuries a minority religion closely tied to the professional identity and elite status of urban families of traders and scholars. A notable illustration of this uneven distribution of Islam is the situation in the 13th and 14th century polity of Mali: the rulers of Mali, as well as their families, had formally converted to Islam. Yet the majority of the (rural) population continued to be attached to conventional fertility rites and the worship of ancestors and other incarnations of supernatural power." - Schulz, Dorothea. (2012). Culture and Customs of Mali, pp. 27-28
So the fact the Mali royals/kings claimed descent from Arabs doesn't seem at all like a dubious claim or wild speculation; the 14th-15th manuscripts do show Arab-looking kings.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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posted
You didn't "debunk" anything in the kemet race thread. I already responded to you there, stop dragging that sh!t in here. It's bad enough the thread devolved into debates about skin color.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Do you want us to dig up your eurocentric loon claims on Mansa Musa etc?
I posted something around 5 years ago on it. If I remember correctly, what I said is Malian state religion was Islam, but this obviously was not an indigenous faith to Mali, but brought in by Arabs. I then said, a 14th and 15th century Manuscript, seems to depict Mansa Musa (and another king) as an Arab. He don't look black African, nor do some of the other kings.
Who can deny this? Do these look black to you?
Kankan Moussa, King of Mali
Source: Mecia de Villadeste, map from a Catalonian atlas, 1413.
Musa I of Mali, King of Mali
Source: Catalan Atlas of the known world, drawn by Abraham Cresques, 1375.
Whatever the case, I never said these were Europeans, but possibly Arabs.
Mansa Musa was from an empire of Mande people. Mande and Ibo have a historical record in the west of being noteworthy in that they can produce lighter skin. Whether his skin color was that or not, it doesn't matter. Please let's not get into skin color debates again.
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: lol.
You do realise Mali Kings themselves claimed descent from Arabs?
You do realize there are SSA that claim to have directly descended from Egypt, but migrated out of the Nile Valley?
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: This is an "Arab looking" king to you??
Just what is the "Arab" look??
Old typology, but you can see the resemblance, almond-shaped eyes, long nose with fleshy-tip (also looks somewhat aquiline). The facial hair , slight beard rufosity (faint red) and lighter skin etc. That image doesn't look like a native to Mali at all, but looks like an Arab. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabid_racePosts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Do you want us to dig up your eurocentric loon claims on Mansa Musa etc?
I posted something around 5 years ago on it. If I remember correctly, what I said is Malian state religion was Islam, but this obviously was not an indigenous faith to Mali, but brought in by Arabs. I then said, a 14th and 15th century Manuscript, seems to depict Mansa Musa (and another king) as an Arab. He don't look black African, nor do some of the other kings.
Who can deny this? Do these look black to you?
Kankan Moussa, King of Mali
Source: Mecia de Villadeste, map from a Catalonian atlas, 1413.
Musa I of Mali, King of Mali
Source: Catalan Atlas of the known world, drawn by Abraham Cresques, 1375.
Whatever the case, I never said these were Europeans, but possibly Arabs.
1) You have know understanding on phenotypes in Mali.
Mali is partly Sahara partly Sahel, at that time Mali was under the rule of Greater Ghana.
Your delusion concept of how a black person is supposed to look like is merely laughable.
2) All classic Mali manuscripts are written in local language and passed on by locals from generation to generation.
3) You have no concept of what Arabs look like, with whom people from the Sahel had contact with.
4 Explain why Mansa Musa spend amounts of gold in Egypt, destabilizing the Egyptian economy for many years. After he saw the statues and murals, he felt so proud of the accomplishments. This was during the Hajj to Mecca. lol
5) Explain what the words MANSA MUSA MEAN! LOL
6) The religion was in east Africa long before Mansa Musa came into existence.
7) Islam was not spread by Arabs in Greater Ghana, West Sudan. lol
8) In Islam it is forbidden to have actual depictions of a persons. Africas Islamic stream in origin is Maliki. Thus it explains why that depiction was not made by local people. But by foreign people like Mecia de Villadeste, map from a Catalonian atlas, 1413. And Catalan Atlas of the known world, drawn by Abraham Cresques, 1375.
9) Explain the Keita Dynasty. lol
10) Explain why the building of the Great Mosque is a communal event?
Ps, I am just starting to ridicule you in front of the entire world, yet again.
And after five years you are still stuck on stupid. lol
quote: Although modern Ghana is unrelated to the ancient kingdom of Ghana, modern Ghana chose the name as a way of honoring early African history. The boundaries of the ancient Kingdom encompassed the Middle Niger Delta region, which consists of modern-day Mali and parts of present-day Mauritania and Senegal. This region has historically been home to the Soninken Malinke, Wa’kuri and Wangari peoples. Fulanis and the Southern Saharan Sanhaja Berbers also played a prominent role in the spread of Islam in the Niger Delta region. Large towns emerged in the Niger Delta region around 300 A.D. Around the eighth century, Arab documents mentioned ancient Ghana and that Muslims crossed the Sahara into West Africa for trade. North African and Saharan merchants traded salt, horses, dates, and camels from the north with gold, timber, and foodstuff from regions south of the Sahara. Ghana kings, however, did not permit North African and Saharan merchants to stay overnight in the city. This gave rise to one of the major features of Ghana—the dual city; Ghana Kings benefited from Muslim traders, but kept them outside centers of power.
[…]
The Songhay state patronized Islamic institutions and sponsored public buildings, mosques and libraries. One notable example is the Great Mosque of Jenne, which was built in the 12th or 13th century. The Great Mosque of Jenne remains the largest earthen building in the world. By the 16th century there were several centers of trade and Islamic learning in the Niger Bend region, most notably the famed Timbuktu. Arab chroniclers tell us that the pastoral nomadic Tuareg founded Timbuktu as a trading outpost. The city’s multicultural population, regional trade, and Islamic scholarship fostered a cosmopolitan environment. In 1325, the city’s population was around 10,000. At its apex, in the 16th century, the population is estimated to have been between 30,000 and 50,000. Timbuktu attracted scholars from throughout the Muslim world.
Djenne, a UNESCO World Heritage Site in Mali, is famous for its spectacular architecture. The city owes its unique character to its masons, inheritors of a craft tradition handed down from one generation of the Boso people to the next since the city arose in the 14th century. Discover -- through archival and contemporary photographs and early engravings -- how the masons continue their age-old craft and meet the challenges of a modern world.
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: My point is Arab merchants/travellers brought Islam to Mali, sometime around the 10th-11th century:
"Gao is mentioned as an important trade center by the ninth-century Arabic chronicler al-Yaʿqubī (d. 897), and there is archaeological and epigraphic evidence of a Muslim presence in Gao by the eleventh century [Arabic Medieval Inscriptions from the Repulic of Mali, 2003, Oxford University Press]." (Hall, 2011)
I've never argued for large-scale mixture, but some Arabs did admix with the locals and those locals were not commoners, but the elites:
"Islam remained for centuries a minority religion closely tied to the professional identity and elite status of urban families of traders and scholars. A notable illustration of this uneven distribution of Islam is the situation in the 13th and 14th century polity of Mali: the rulers of Mali, as well as their families, had formally converted to Islam. Yet the majority of the (rural) population continued to be attached to conventional fertility rites and the worship of ancestors and other incarnations of supernatural power." - Schulz, Dorothea. (2012). Culture and Customs of Mali, pp. 27-28
So the fact the Mali royals/kings claimed descent from Arabs doesn't seem at all like a dubious claim or wild speculation; the 14th-15th manuscripts do show Arab-looking kings.
Your point is empty, hollow, zero in existence.
It was not Arabs who brought Islam to West Africa, it was Berbers from the North. The ethnic group is called: Sanhadja (Sanhaja) And you will be in a shock to see what they look like.
Although the reign of the Soso was short-lived, their momentary dominance set the stage for the emergence of a greater empire whose struggle is still commemorated in thriving oral traditions. In the early thirteenth century, the exiled prince Sundiata Keita (“the hungering lion”) led a Mande revolt against the powerful Soso king Sumanguru Kante that marked the ascension of the Mali empire. Both a real historical personage and a cultural hero, Sundiata’s rise to power is still celebrated in the Mande-speaking world by jalis (often translated as “griots”). Individuals who inherited and acquired special knowledge about history, genealogies, and music, jalis have historically performed a variety of social and political roles and continue to do so today. Their praise songs, now aired over television and radio in addition to live performance, are an important component of contemporary weddings and religious and national holidays.
After Sundiata, the most famous ruler of the Mali empire is Mansa Kankan Musa I, who came to power several decades after the death of his legendary predecessor. Musa was not the first emperor of Mali to embrace Islam; unlike the Soninke and the Soso, Mande royalty adopted the religion relatively early. However, Musa’s hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) of 1324–25 drew the attention of both the Islamic world and Europeans, who were unprepared for the lavish wealth and generosity that the Malian king displayed during his stopover in Egypt. Accompanied by an enormous entourage, Musa apparently dispensed so much gold in Cairo that the precious metal’s value plummeted and did not recover for several years thereafter. The Mali empire, previously little known beyond the western Sudan, now became legendary in the Islamic world and Europe. The image of Mansa Musa bearing nuggets of gold was subsequently commemorated in maps of the African continent (Bibliothèque nationale de France).
The fourteenth-century traveler Ibn Battuta visited ancient Mali a few decades after Musa’s death and was much impressed by the peace and lawfulness he found strictly enforced there. The Mali empire extended over an area larger than western Europe and consisted of numerous vassal kingdoms and provinces. Following Mansa Musa’s death, Mali went into a long decline, shrinking to the size of its original territory by 1645.
Department of the Arts of Africa, Oceania, and the Americas, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: This is an "Arab looking" king to you??
Just what is the "Arab" look??
Old typology, but you can see the resemblance, almond-shaped eyes, long nose with fleshy-tip (also looks somewhat aquiline). The facial hair , slight beard rufosity (faint red) and lighter skin etc. That image doesn't look like a native to Mali at all, but looks like an Arab. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabid_race
Old typology? Dude you are SICK in the HEAD!
Proto Arabs,
How may times you have to see this, before it penetrates into your head?
Head of a Syrian KhM 3896a TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Wait, So you think all those subclades are going to be ANCESTRAL? You dont understand that when that study is published nearly all of them will be DERIVED downstream subclades! 
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