posted                         

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Lioness

You're never going to get agreement on this. This is why I've said a long time ago that I'm going to stop using the term without trying to persuade others. Others can use it if they want to. I see the politics and so I'm dropping it. Others here can pretend that only the Eurocentric opposition is doing these spin antics all they want, but parties on both sides are doing it.

I love sitting back and pointing out how aDNA is exposing them. Somehow people here think only Europeans have to make adjustments after the discovery that Labrana wasn't white.

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Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Nodnarb:
That said, in my experience even simply calling AE "African"---without using any color terminology at all---is going to provoke accusations of "Afrocentrism" from certain people. In the end the bias against an African Egypt is still going to be there no matter what vocabulary you use.

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Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I love Ancient Egypt but if they weren't "black" I wouldn't give crap to be honest.

As long as Mali, Songhai and especially the Swahili coast was "black" I have no personal problems.

*Shrugs*

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Real tawk:
You're a bigger idiot than I thought if you think that that is a representation of Indians.

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
yeah! WTF are you blabbering about. Yes, most Indians are black, AEians were not white. AEians are indigenous Africans.

oh! African!? lol! another fool.

quote:

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Originally posted by Real tawk:
WTF is Black??!! Ha! That is the Negro's trojan horse to lay hold on other people of color historical, cultural and genetic heritage. Don't you love the self-hating Negros. I guess East Indians are Black too! Why not identify populations by their hair texture also? Oh, wait! that what exclude the Negro from the rest of humanity. I love it when Negros cling onto antiquated racial taxonomies.

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
typical fool. It did not say they had "no" SSA ancestry. It said less. Same mis-reading as those who are spinning the Natufians.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lawaya:
just because the new info said the Egyptians ***weren't sub-Saharan**** that don't mean they weren't black. when they say sub-Saharan they mean west Africans that's not an surprise most of the Egyptians body were E1b1b and west Africans are E1b1a

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Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Cass/:
My argument is based on the standard used by physical anthropologists: black is 29-36. Like you said, give or take a couple of units because these are fuzzy. But we have afronuts on this forum like Doug who think light brown hues as low as 17 are black and they only say this so they can lump much lighter skinned north African populations in with themselves as part of their pan-African politics. No physical anthropologist however does this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Lioness

You're never going to get agreement on this. This is why I've said a long time ago that I'm going to stop using the term without trying to persuade others. Others can use it if they want to. I see the politics and so I'm dropping it. Others here can pretend that only the Eurocentric opposition is doing these spin antics all they want, but parties on both sides are doing it.

I love sitting back and pointing out how aDNA is exposing them. Somehow people here think only Europeans have to make adjustments after the discovery that Labrana wasn't white.

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Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:
My argument is based on the standard used by physical anthropologists: black is 29-36. Like you said, give or take a couple of units because these are fuzzy. But we have afronuts on this forum like Doug who think light brown hues as low as 17 are black and they only say this so they can lump much lighter skinned north African populations in with themselves as part of their pan-African politics. No physical anthropologist however does this.

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:
My argument is based on the standard used by physical anthropologists: black is 29-36. Like you said, give or take a couple of units because these are fuzzy. But we have afronuts on this forum like Doug who think light brown hues as low as 17 are black and they only say this so they can lump much lighter skinned north African populations in with themselves as part of their pan-African politics. No physical anthropologist however does this.

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In what strange world are Northeast Africans not black? Are North Sudanese, Somalis, Eritreans and Ethiopians not black? These are the people that eventually created ancient Egypt... it was a Sudanese transplant.

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Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:
My argument is based on the standard used by physical anthropologists: black is 29-36. Like you said, give or take a couple of units because these are fuzzy. But we have afronuts on this forum like Doug who think light brown hues as low as 17 are black and they only say this so they can lump much lighter skinned north African populations in with themselves as part of their pan-African politics. No physical anthropologist however does this.

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In what strange world are Northeast Africans not black? Are North Sudanese, Somalis, Eritreans and Ethiopians not black? These are the people that eventually created ancient Egypt... it was a Sudanese transplant.

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Several people in this forum, Djehuti, Doug, Tukular prefer the definition of black as not having to do with ancestry or features but instead a particular range of darker skin tones.

Therefore if one establishes that range's boundary we can look at
various North Sudanese, Somalis, Eritreans and Ethiopians and on a case by case basis of individual people determine if they are black or not by comparing them to a color chart

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by Real tawk:

WTF is Black??!! Ha! That is the Negro's trojan horse to lay hold on other people of color historical, cultural and genetic heritage. Don't you love the self-hating Negros. I guess East Indians are Black too! Why not identify populations by their hair texture also? Oh, wait! that what exclude the Negro from the rest of humanity. I love it when Negros cling onto antiquated racial taxonomies.

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We all know what 'black' is, which is a description of skin color and says nothing about ancestry. Just because someone is black doesn't mean they are of recent African ancestry. Clyde and Xyzman know this but they would rather live in a fantasy.

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Posts: 507 | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:
[qb] My argument is based on the standard used by physical anthropologists: black is 29-36. Like you said, give or take a couple of units because these are fuzzy. But we have afronuts on this forum like Doug who think light brown hues as low as 17 are black and they only say this so they can lump much lighter skinned north African populations in with themselves as part of their pan-African politics. No physical anthropologist however does this.

---

In what strange world are Northeast Africans not black? Are North Sudanese, Somalis, Eritreans and Ethiopians not black? These are the people that eventually created ancient Egypt... it was a Sudanese transplant.

---

Several people in this forum, Djehuti, Doug, Tukular prefer the definition of black as not having to do with ancestry or features but instead a particular range of darker skin tones.

Therefore if one establishes that range's boundary we can look at
various North Sudanese, Somalis, Eritreans and Ethiopians and on a case by case basis of individual people determine if they are black or not by comparing them to a color chart

---

That's bonkers. That sort of arrangement would be a bloody mess. You would be left with a situation in which people from the same ethnic group would be placed into different racial boxes in opposition to genetics, linguistics, culture and common sense.

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Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I love Ancient Egypt but if they weren't "black" I wouldn't give crap to be honest.

As long as Mali, Songhai and especially the Swahili coast was "black" I have no personal problems.

*Shrugs*

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It's beyond dispute that ancient Egypt was established and developed by Northeast African cultures diffusing from North Sudan and the Horn. That some "Eurasians" migrated into Egypt long after it was established does nothing to undermine this.

I'll truly care when Eurocentrics can demonstrate that it was "Eurasians" from the Levant or Southern Europe that created ancient Egypt from the predynastic period to Pharaonic times.

It's already well known that Levantine people were able to assume an Egyptian identity after being naturalised and that they were able to serve as soldiers and scribes. Ancient Egypt was essentially the first truly cosmopolitan civilization.

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Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:
My argument is based on the standard used by physical anthropologists: black is 29-36. Like you said, give or take a couple of units because these are fuzzy. But we have afronuts on this forum like Doug who think light brown hues as low as 17 are black and they only say this so they can lump much lighter skinned north African populations in with themselves as part of their pan-African politics. No physical anthropologist however does this.

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Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

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In Egyptology, we often do not saying things are a fraud or forgery because it implies a certain intent (ie you made it with the intent to deceive vs you made a really good copy and someone mistakenly believed it real). We often prefer to use the words, cannot be authenticated. And this is exactly where this bust falls. Why? Several reasons.

1. We aren't certain the original maker of this intended to deceive. The story goes it was made in Germany during the early 1900's by an artist, someone saw it and was very impressed with its beauty, the artist never had the heart to say the truth and sold it to the collector. The collector assumed it to be real and it was presented as such and just assumed to be legitimate, with no actual evidence.

"According to a Swiss art historian, the bust is less than 100 years old. Henri Stierlin has said the stunning work that will later this year be the showpiece of the city's reborn Neues Museum was created by an artist commissioned by Ludwig Borchardt, the German archaeologist credited with digging Nefertiti out of the sands of the ancient settlement of Amarna, 90 miles south of Cairo, in 1912.

In his book, Le Buste de Nefertiti – une Imposture de l'Egyptologie? (The Bust of Nefertiti – an Egyptology Fraud?), Stierlin has claimed that the bust was created to test ancient pigments. But after it was admired by a Prussian prince, Johann Georg, who was beguiled by Nefertiti's beauty, Borchardt, said Stierlin, "didn't have the nerve to make his guest look stupid" and pretended it was genuine.

Berlin author and historian Edrogan Ercivan has added his weight to the row with his book Missing Link in Archaeology, published last week, in which he has also called Nefertiti a fake, modelled by an artist on Borchardt's statuesque wife.

Public and political enthusiasm about the find at the time gave the artefact its "own dynamic" and led to Borchardt ensuring it was kept out of the public gaze until 1924, the authors have argued."

"Other aspects of the find, which he has claimed support his theory, are the facts that the bust has no left eye, which the ancient Egyptians would have considered a sign of disrespect towards their much-loved queen, and that the first scientific reports on the discovery were not written up for 11 years."

You see this isn't technically a forgery. There wasn't an intent by the artist to deceive. However it isn't an authentically Egyptian artwork either.

Is this Nefertiti – or a 100-year-old fake?

2. "Inconsistent with Egyptian style

He noted that the bust has no left eye, which the ancient Egyptians would have considered a sign of disrespect to their queen. He pointed out that the shoulders were cut vertically, while Egyptian artisans cut their busts' shoulders horizontally.

And he said French archeologists who were present at the 1912 dig never mentioned the find, nor did contemporary written accounts.

Berlin author and historian Edrogan Ercivan's new book, Missing Link in Archaeology, which was published last week, adds to Stierlin's argument. Ercivan has also called the Nefertiti bust a fake, saying it was modelled on Borchardt's wife, the Guardian newspaper reported.

Both historians have said Borchardt kept the bust for 11 years before handing it over to a Berlin museum."

Nefertiti bust may be a fake: art historians

3. I actually have a PH.d in Egyptology, when I was in Egypt I looked into this. I also looked in Germany and France and UK to try to find some export record. Contrary to what people think, these things have to be recorded. Even in war time, the soldiers have to record what they were taking where the governments permit them to loot. The bust has no history. What I mean by this, is for most artifacts to be considered valid, they basically have to look right, feel right, and seem right, and have a history of the moment they were removed from the ground, until now. Anything less, means it cannot be authenticated to the best ability of archaeologist. Now sometimes if it is consistent with other styles in a perfect manner, we can say it is most probable but has a missing history. The bust meets neither of these requirements, it is inconsistent with Egyptian style of its time, you cannot find another bust like it Ancient Egypt, additionally it doesn't appear in any record, export record, military record nor import record. In otherwords, it first appears in Germany not Egypt, according to the record. This makes it impossible to authenticate as Egyptian. Now in theory it could have been smuggled in, but that isn't a tiny bust, its not the easiest thing to smuggle. So already its not likely, it is also quiet heavy, add on to the fact that if someone was willing to lie to 2 governments to sneak out an artifact where they could go to jail for, why should I believe that same person wouldn't lie to me and pass off a forgery that is of the wrong style with missing parts?

4. The bust doesn't look like Nefertiti to me. Not from what I've seen in pyramid depictions at least.


Look at the facial features, the lips, the nose, the eyes. Also look at the crown. Notice how the crown in the bust above has multiple key differences like it has a red, green, yellow and blue band around the mid-section of it, but the hieroglyph doesn't. There are alot of inconsistencies with the crown in the sculpture than with the glyph.

What I notice immediately as well, is nefertiti is depicted as someone with a clearly extreme form of prognathism where their low jaw is forward and forehead slants backwards. This is not depicted in the bust.



Nefertiti and Akenaten her husband.

Nefertiti's father is Ay, his mother is Tiye. This is queen Tiye



Note the huge difference in artistic styles between this and the bust, both are queens of egypt, but the depictions are highly different in art styles.

5. Borchardt (the guy who first has the bust), was, unethical at best, but had a reputation as a forger and a reputation for buying fakes and making fakes and trying to pass them off as real. Additionally we know for a fact other parts in support of the bust are certainly fake, we know because...

"The renowned Egyptologist Rolf Krauss, a curator at the Egyptian Museum in Berlin for more than 20 years and the custodian of the Nefertiti bust, claims that the folding altar used as compensation for the bust was fake.

Krauss theorizes that Borchardt, consumed with ambition, had the magnificent panel, with which he enticed Lefebvre, made by skilled stonemasons in Cairo.

But could the excavator have been capable of such contemptuous fraud? Some, who believe Borchardt was a hatchet man, say he could.

It is true that the scholar had been working at the German consulate general in Cairo since 1899. His official title was "academic attaché." But in reality Borchardt's job -- in the struggle against the other imperialistic powers, England, France and the United States -- was to fill Germany's museums with treasures from the days of the pharaohs.

His approach was often crude. In 1908, British Egyptologist Alan Gardiner accused him of "tactless and brusque behavior." Gardiner also claimed that the German had established a network of academic spies in the Nile Valley.

When confronted at home, the accused admitted that he had illegitimately acquired "a large number of photographs, drawings, private letters and foreign documents, and so on." In a letter to the foreign ministry, a colleague complained that a man who had "compromised German academia in such a way cannot remain in his position."

But the Indiana Jones of the German Empire survived the scandal. He was simply too good at what did. Borchardt often roamed through the souks of Cairo, where bearded merchants offered stolen antiquities for sale, as well as fakes made to look old with etching acid. Borchardt himself described the dealers' tricks. For example, it was common that "the men scratch off old paint, crush it and apply it with a binding agent."

There is even evidence that Borchardt made forgeries himself when he was a student. He imitated a cuneiform tablet and wrote logarithms onto it. A scholar fell for the practical joke.

Its interest peaked by the rumors, the restoration laboratory (set up by Italians) in Cairo examined the folding altar some time ago. When it was placed under ultraviolet light, it turned out that the supposed weathering was only a "darker base color" that had been painted onto the limestone.

"I think this is absolute proof of forgery," says Egyptologist Christian Loeben."

Mystery on the Nile: Re-Examining Nefertiti's Likeness and Life - SPIEGEL ONLINE

6. COLOR. None of the other sources mentioned this, but in addition to appearing in a German art style rather than an Egyptian one, the color is wrong. The Egyptians were often depicted in many different colors, often having a symbolic meaning. Dark brown or ruddy brown is most common. For females usually it was dark brown or yellow brown or golden brown type color. Dead were often depicted in white (like ghost white). Gods depicted in jet black like Osiris and Amun (supreme god). and Ptah depicted in green (a god), water goddess like nut in blue. The bust doesn't fall into any known category we find anywhere in egypt. It seems to be painted in a modern day flesh color of a caucasian person maybe with a tan. Now being painted tan isn't disqualifying in and of itself. It is all the other factors, mysterious history, not looking like nefertiti and appearing in a paint color we never seen before, or after.

7. The bust is made of stone, but has plaster on it. This is again, unheard of. It is also possible that the bust was modified. It could have been a bust of someone else, was changed in appearance. For instance,

" The right ear canal showed a pointed end, which suggested the use of a drill-type tool, whereas the left ear canal ended bluntly."

" The findings were inspected to possibly differentiate multiple layers of plaster. The bonding between limestone and plaster was analyzed to identify points of weakness that are potentially at risk for breaking and to provide guidance for handling of the bust. In addition, the limestone core was analyzed for homogeneity and for inclusions that could provide information to help determine the origin of the stone."

Nondestructive Insights into Composition of the Sculpture of Egyptian Queen Nefertiti with CT

8. The bust also has multiple layers, again this is uncommon. Usually they'd sculpt down a single piece of stone. They wouldn't plaster it.

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Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Lioness.

Are you sure you're African American? So you think people are going to willingly shut out the skin pigmentation levels of Obama, Sade and Bill Withers from 'black'?

Some will argue that definite boundaries are irrelevant because most skin color is controlled by a handful of genes. Statistically this means that you can be predominantly African but extremely light skinned.

Another reason why this is pointless is because these undefined boundaries are undefined for a reason. They have a social function. (Just like the Arab nationalism has a social function). You're trying to get people to decrease the size of their social identity just because you want to hold them accountable.. people aren't stupid.

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Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Man, Why do so many topics eventually arrive at this bullsh!t subject.

Black as a "racially" or biological term of classification varied based on context as well as who you are speaking to, we all know this.
You can't go to the Caribbean or Africa and accurately describe someone below a color grade of 24 black, no matter how big the lips, wide the nose, kinky the hair and dark their parents might be. ...same-thing for India, and Korea (-minus a few shades).

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If Black is the range is 24-36 and this sculpture is accurate then she is included

Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Man, Why do so many topics eventually arrive at this bullsh!t subject.

Black as a "racially" or biological term of classification varied based on context as well as who you are speaking to, we all know this.
You can't go to the Caribbean or Africa and accurately describe someone below a color grade of 24 black, no matter how big the lips, wide the nose, kinky the hair and dark their parents might be. ...same-thing for India, and Korea (-minus a few shades).

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If Black is the range is 24-36 and this sculpture is accurate then she is included

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Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Oshun:
There's already a topic on race and what it means and how to define Egyptians by it. please guys leave this sort of thing there. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:


I don't think populations who fall in the medium UV radiation zone with "moderate" skin are "white". For example North African populations such as Berber groups and the Egyptians would fall in the "moderate" skin category - light brown to reddish-brown. They score between 50 and 60% skin reflectance.

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Here's another proposal based on the comment

51-100 is black

Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

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Egypt, located on the isthmus of Africa, is an ideal region to study historical population dynamics due to its geographic location and documented interactions with ancient civilizations in Africa, Asia, and Europe. Particularly, in the first millennium BCE Egypt endured foreign domination leading to growing numbers of foreigners living within its borders possibly contributing genetically to the local population. Here we mtDNA and nuclear DNA from mummified humans recovered from Middle Egypt that span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the Third Intermediate to the Roman Period. Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more Near Eastern ancestry than present-day Egyptians, who received additional Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

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Source

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We know what occurred during the Third Intermediate period to the Roman Period.

"The Third Intermediate Period of Ancient Egypt began with the death of Pharaoh Ramesses XI in 1070 BC, ending the New Kingdom, and was eventually followed by the Late Period. Various points are offered as the beginning for the latter era, though it is most often regarded as dating from the foundation of the Twenty-Sixth Dynasty by Psamtik I in 664 BC, following the expulsion of the Nubian rulers of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty by the Assyrians under King Assurbanipal."

and



Which of course coincides with this information.

"Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."

-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528"




That being said if the results of the presented genetic study is only indicating that a non African population during the LATE period characterized the Nile Valley is NEWS to anyone then they have been looking at Kemet's population history without knowing actual context to the situation. We see that prior to the Late Period that is assessed in the study noted that E1b1a was found in New Kingdom (still KEMET) Ramses III.

"We amplified 16 Y chromosomal, short tandem repeats (AmpF\STR Yfiler PCR amplification kit; Applied Biosystems).........Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a"

^^ In case you haven't noted the above study is still very solid proof of the earlier existence of the exclusively associated "Negroid"-Niger Congo populations along the Nile. The findings of the Late Period invaders is really irrelevant, and in no way nullify this fact.

We see from DNAtribes AND DNAconsultant Y-Dna analysis of the Amarna period pharaohs and that of Ramses III and his son (who were CONFIRMED to be E1b1a-Negroid/Niger Congo speakers) that again these ancient Africans were exclusively tied to modern melaninated African populations.

We also from other lines of evidence that the early ancient Kemetic population was without a doubt "Negroid".

""Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits . Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV. -- Godde K. (2009) An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development? Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404."

Notice how the anthropological evidence also states that the biological continuity continued into the New Kingdom as those rulers also clustered with those "Negroid" predynastic Kemites. Those Pre-Dynastic Kemites were also found with the severe sickle cell haplotype.

" We conducted a molecular investigation of the presence of sicklemia in six predynastic Egyptian mummies (about 3200 BC) from the Anthropological and Ethnographic Museum of Turin. Previous studies of these remains showed the presence of severe anemia , while histological preparations of mummified tissues revealed hemolytic disorders."



Swenet is a clown! The only way for anyone to possibly adhere to such bullshit is if they are complete immune to thinking for themselves based on evidence and logic. He cannot begin to form a narrative (which is what is really the most important aspect to this discussion) with any of his distracting bullshit.

Posts: 348 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Akachi:
Swenet is a clown! The only way for anyone to possibly adhere to such bullshit is if they are complete immune to thinking for themselves based on evidence and logic.

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The recently sampled Natufians are closer to Han Chinese tho.

Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Lioness, honestly.... This is utter foolishness...
To each his own respective criteria... 24 and up cannot be considered black in my eyes, No one would be called black if their skin shade was of 20 in the Caribbean and south america as well as few places in Africa, unless relaying cultural African identity... you say Nef was >24 then 26 is the cut off point ...to me at least. Not only that but most people with pigment functionality can achieve a tan of at least 19.

Can we agree and dead this now...

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Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Akachi:
Swenet is a clown! The only way for anyone to possibly adhere to such bullshit is if they are complete immune to thinking for themselves based on evidence and logic.

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The recently sampled Natufians are closer to Han Chinese tho.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Natufians are closer to Han Chinese tho.

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Show me a Han Chinese individual with a "Negroid" cranial morphology.

“.. one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians....". (Angel 1972. Biological Relations of Egyptian and Eastern Mediterranean Populations.. JrnHumEvo 1:1, p307




Let me know if you need some context behind the story of the Natufians. I can cite Ricaut if you'd like. The map below depicts the only people on Earth who sport the "Negroid" (including the diaspora) morphology.



The information shows that the Natufians looked like the people in the region in the map shown above. You don't have any evidence of them looking any other way, and especially not "Mongoloid".

Posts: 348 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by xyyman:
typical fool. It did not say they had "no" SSA ancestry. It said less. Same mis-reading as those who are spinning the Natufians.

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Originally posted by Lawaya:
just because the new info said the Egyptians ***weren't sub-Saharan**** that don't mean they weren't black. when they say sub-Saharan they mean west Africans that's not an surprise most of the Egyptians body were E1b1b and west Africans are E1b1a

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Posts: 54 | From: va | Registered: Dec 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Cass/:
Show me a photo of black women with pigmentation this light:


The only reason black men on this forum call this black is because they admire lighter skinned phenotypes and its in their social and sexual interests to try to extend their definition of black to include these lighter non-black pigmentation phenotypes.

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Posts: 54 | From: va | Registered: Dec 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

You're right. But that's different from people who are deliberately misinterpreting DJ's use of 'black' (and my past use of the term) as referring to ancestry/race. The same intellectual midgets are also taking ancient Greek use of 'melas' and translating it to the western use of 'black', which has heavy SSA connotations that these ancient authors had no awareness of. They're also doing the same thing with 'Cush', going as far as to say that Eden being encircled by Cushites to the north, west and east must mean Eden was in Africa. This, despite the fact that the bible clearly says Eden was to the east (from its audience's perspective). Against all evidence, we're supposed to think that, because these Cushites were dark skinned, this whole setting of Adam and Eve must have been imagined to take place in Africa.

I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with saying that the ancient Greeks would have described AE pigmentation as heavily pigmented and consistent with their artwork. But that doesn't translate to the racial baggage that 'black' carries today. They're taking ancient pigmentation-based terms and using it to sneak in their own agenda. And when academics refuse to get on board with defining AE on their terms (why should it specifically have to be THEIR terms?) they want to throw a tantrum and publish emails.

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Posts: 54 | From: va | Registered: Dec 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Cass/:
Show me a photo of black women with pigmentation this light:


The only reason black men on this forum call this black is because they admire lighter skinned phenotypes and its in their social and sexual interests to try to extend their definition of black to include these lighter non-black pigmentation phenotypes.

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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The information from the living Egyptian population may not be as useful because historical records indicate substantial immigration into Egypt over the last several millennia, and it seems to have been far greater from the Near East and Europe than from areas far south of Egypt. "Substantial immigration" can actually mean a relatively small number of people in terms of population genetics theory. It has been determined that an average migration rate of one percent per generation into a region could result in a great change of the original gene frequencies in only several thousand years. (This assumes that all migrants marry natives and that all native-migrant offspring remain in the region.) It is obvious then that an ethnic group or nationality can change in average gene frequencies or physiognomy by intermarriage, unless social rules exclude the products of "mixed" unions from membership in the receiving group. More abstractly this means that geographically defined populations can undergo significant genetic change with a small percentage of steady assimilation of "foreign" genes. This is true even if natural selection does not favor the genes (and does not eliminate them).

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Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Cass/:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Lioness, honestly.... This is utter foolishness...
To each his own respective criteria... 24 and up cannot be considered black in my eyes, No one would be called black if their skin shade was of 20 in the Caribbean and south america as well as few places in Africa, unless relaying cultural African identity... you say Nef was >24 then 26 is the cut off point ...to me at least. Not only that but most people with pigment functionality can achieve a tan of at least 19.

Can we agree and dead this now...

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Thanks for proving my point. You're trying to attach yourself to lighter phenotypes out of idealising/admiring them.

Who are the biggest buyers of light eye contacts in America? African-Americans.

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Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Nodnarb

You're right. But that's different from people who are deliberately misinterpreting DJ's use of 'black' (and my past use of the term) as referring to ancestry/race. The same intellectual midgets are also taking ancient Greek use of 'melas' and translating it to the western use of 'black', which has heavy SSA connotations that these ancient authors had no awareness of. They're also doing the same thing with 'Cush', going as far as to say that Eden being encircled by Cushites to the north, west and east must mean Eden was in Africa. This, despite the fact that the bible clearly says Eden was to the east (from its audience's perspective). Against all evidence, we're supposed to think that, because these Cushites were dark skinned, this whole setting of Adam and Eve must have been imagined to take place in Africa.

I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with saying that the ancient Greeks would have described AE pigmentation as heavily pigmented and consistent with their artwork. But that doesn't translate to the racial baggage that 'black' carries today. They're taking ancient pigmentation-based terms and using it to sneak in their own agenda. And when academics refuse to get on board with defining AE on their terms (why should it specifically have to be THEIR terms?) they want to throw a tantrum and publish emails.

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Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Lioness, honestly.... This is utter foolishness...
To each his own respective criteria... 24 and up cannot be considered black in my eyes, No one would be called black if their skin shade was of 20 in the Caribbean and south america as well as few places in Africa, unless relaying cultural African identity... you say Nef was >24 then 26 is the cut off point ...to me at least. Not only that but most people with pigment functionality can achieve a tan of at least 19.

Can we agree and dead this now...

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Thanks for proving my point. You're trying to attach yourself to lighter phenotypes out of idealising/admiring them.

Who are the biggest buyers of light eye contacts in America? African-Americans.

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Most women in my family have a shade ~25 and above I'm not far from there as-well, which is why I was being lenient but with all actuality I'm called "brown" when I leave the country...
Go to the thread started by oshun about the race of kemet, and read through the first seven pages again.... I'm not revisiting this sh!t with you. Either your trolling or you're an idiot.

Back to the abstract and natufians and near easterners and Han Chinese out scoring yorubans lmao.

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Posts: 54 | From: va | Registered: Dec 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Cass/:
[QB] Ancient Egyptians were the same pigmentation as populations at their latitude. I already posted reflectance spectroscopy data for this. The skin colour cline runs from the Nile Valley, starting at the Mediterranean coast and Egyptian Delta, to Middle Egypt, to Upper Egypt, to Lower Nubia and to Upper Nubia. This cline was light brown > medium brown > dark brown. The Egyptians distinguished themselves to their southern neighbours based on skin colour - so they couldn't have been dark brown, but light brown (Lower and Middle Egyptians) to medium brown (Upper Egyptians).

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Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Lioness, honestly.... This is utter foolishness...
To each his own respective criteria... 24 and up cannot be considered black in my eyes, No one would be called black if their skin shade was of 20 in the Caribbean and south america as well as few places in Africa, unless relaying cultural African identity... you say Nef was >24 then 26 is the cut off point ...to me at least. Not only that but most people with pigment functionality can achieve a tan of at least 19.

Can we agree and dead this now...

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Thanks for proving my point. You're trying to attach yourself to lighter phenotypes out of idealising/admiring them.

Who are the biggest buyers of light eye contacts in America? African-Americans.

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Most women in my family have a shade ~25 and above I'm not far from there as-well, which is why I was being lenient but with all actuality I'm called "brown" when I leave the country...
Go to the thread started by oshun about the race of kemet, and read through the first seven pages again.... I'm not revisiting this sh!t with you. Either your trolling or you're an idiot.

Back to the abstract and natufians and near easterners and Han Chinese out scoring yorubans lmao.

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Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Cass/:
Not interested in anecdotes. "Black" on the Luscan Scale as used by physical anthropologists e.g. Carleton Coon is 29-36. You're trying to move the standard boundary for your own agenda. Show me a single anthropologist who thinks 24 or 25 is black.

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Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged |