Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Egyptian Antiquity Ministry refuses aDNA extraction and analysis by the Spaniard archaeologists who found a 12th Dyn noble family near Lower Nubia border that upholds legitimacy of high social status comes from the wife or mother.
quote:
Live ScienceHistory Mummy of Ancient Egyptian Nobleman Discovered Along Nile River By Owen Jarus, Live Science Contributor | March 27, 2017 01:09pm ET
A tomb holding the mummy of Shemai, the younger brother of a powerful governor in Egypt, has been discovered near Aswan, Egypt, along the Nile River. The structure dates back more than 3,800 years, archaeologists said.
About 14 members of Shemai’s extended family have been found so far in Egypt, with recent research indicating that women played a vital role in this family, acting as "bearers of legitimacy," one Egyptologist said.
[....] Alejandro Jiménez-Serrano, an Egyptologist at the University of Jaen in Spain, who is leading the team that excavated the tomb. [...]
"We have found the mummy-body of Shemai, but we left him in his original position, in his coffin. The next year, we will have the opportunity to look [at] his face," Jiménez-Serrano told Live Science.
The structure was found at Qubbet el-Hawa, which translates to "Hill of the Wind," and was located near the southern border of Egypt in ancient times. A necropolis for nobles of the ancient city of Elephantine (on Elephantine Island in the Nile River) was erected at Qubbet el-Hawa. The mummified body of Sarenput II's second daughter, Sattjeni, was also found at the site.
While surviving historical texts record the life of Sarenput II, little information has survived about Shemai. The discovery is important "not only for the richness of the burial, but [also because it] sheds light on those individuals who were under the shadow of the power," the Egyptian Ministry of Antiquities said in a statement.
In 2018, the archaeological team will return to the tomb to continue excavations and study of the coffins, said Jiménez-Serrano. He told Live Science he hopes the upcoming season will yield more information about what role Shemai played in the history of Egypt.
Large family
Finding so many family members at the site has been a boon for archaeologists: "Such high numbers of individuals provide a unique opportunity to study the [living] conditions of the high class in Egypt more than 3,800 years ago," said the Ministry of Antiquities.
Examination of the 14 family members has revealed that, even though ancient Egypt is often regarded as being a patriarchal (male-dominated) society, woman played an important role in this family, Jiménez-Serrano said.
posted
^I need to mail you, but your inbox is full.
Btw, it is not surprising considering the present politics going on.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Egyptian Antiquity Ministry refuses aDNA extraction and analysis by the Spaniard archaeologists who found a 12th Dyn noble family near Lower Nubia border that upholds legitimacy of high social status comes from the wife or mother.
quote:
Live ScienceHistory Mummy of Ancient Egyptian Nobleman Discovered Along Nile River By Owen Jarus, Live Science Contributor | March 27, 2017 01:09pm ET
A tomb holding the mummy of Shemai, the younger brother of a powerful governor in Egypt, has been discovered near Aswan, Egypt, along the Nile River. The structure dates back more than 3,800 years, archaeologists said.
About 14 members of Shemai’s extended family have been found so far in Egypt, with recent research indicating that women played a vital role in this family, acting as "bearers of legitimacy," one Egyptologist said.
[....] Alejandro Jiménez-Serrano, an Egyptologist at the University of Jaen in Spain, who is leading the team that excavated the tomb. [...]
"We have found the mummy-body of Shemai, but we left him in his original position, in his coffin. The next year, we will have the opportunity to look [at] his face," Jiménez-Serrano told Live Science.
The structure was found at Qubbet el-Hawa, which translates to "Hill of the Wind," and was located near the southern border of Egypt in ancient times. A necropolis for nobles of the ancient city of Elephantine (on Elephantine Island in the Nile River) was erected at Qubbet el-Hawa. The mummified body of Sarenput II's second daughter, Sattjeni, was also found at the site.
While surviving historical texts record the life of Sarenput II, little information has survived about Shemai. The discovery is important "not only for the richness of the burial, but [also because it] sheds light on those individuals who were under the shadow of the power," the Egyptian Ministry of Antiquities said in a statement.
In 2018, the archaeological team will return to the tomb to continue excavations and study of the coffins, said Jiménez-Serrano. He told Live Science he hopes the upcoming season will yield more information about what role Shemai played in the history of Egypt.
Large family
Finding so many family members at the site has been a boon for archaeologists: "Such high numbers of individuals provide a unique opportunity to study the [living] conditions of the high class in Egypt more than 3,800 years ago," said the Ministry of Antiquities.
Examination of the 14 family members has revealed that, even though ancient Egypt is often regarded as being a patriarchal (male-dominated) society, woman played an important role in this family, Jiménez-Serrano said.
If historical records are anything to go by, we should expect some or probably significant genetic affinity with "Southern" African groups. The founder of the 12th Dynasty according to the Prophesy of Neferti was the "son of a woman of Ta Seti(Zety land)." Prophecy of Neferti
quote: A king of the South will come, Ameny by name, the son of a woman of Zety-land, a child of Khenkhen. He will assume the White Crown, he will wear the Red Crown, he will join together the Double Crown, he will propitiate the Two Lords with what they desire; the land will be enclosed in (his) grasp, the oars swinging, the people of his reign will rejoice, the well-born man will make his name forever and ever.
posted
Wow... Just wow... This should silence those who say theres no such thing as EUrocentricism in Egyptology.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Egyptian Antiquity Ministry & Max Planck Institute got everbod else on lockdown?
Posts: 20 | Registered: Sep 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: ]If historical records are anything to go by, we should expect some or probably significant genetic affinity with "Southern" African groups. The founder of the 12th Dynasty according to the Prophesy of Neferti was the "son of a woman of Ta Seti(Zety land)." Prophecy of Neferti
quote: A king of the South will come, Ameny by name, the son of a woman of Zety-land, a child of Khenkhen. He will assume the White Crown, he will wear the Red Crown, he will join together the Double Crown, he will propitiate the Two Lords with what they desire; the land will be enclosed in (his) grasp, the oars swinging, the people of his reign will rejoice, the well-born man will make his name forever and ever.
Yup, DNAing those mummies from that time and place could shed invaluable light on the biological relationship between the TaSeti nome of Egypt and the Wawat polities of Nubia.
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: ]If historical records are anything to go by, we should expect some or probably significant genetic affinity with "Southern" African groups. The founder of the 12th Dynasty according to the Prophesy of Neferti was the "son of a woman of Ta Seti(Zety land)." Prophecy of Neferti
quote: A king of the South will come, Ameny by name, the son of a woman of Zety-land, a child of Khenkhen. He will assume the White Crown, he will wear the Red Crown, he will join together the Double Crown, he will propitiate the Two Lords with what they desire; the land will be enclosed in (his) grasp, the oars swinging, the people of his reign will rejoice, the well-born man will make his name forever and ever.
Yup, DNAing those mummies from that time and place could shed invaluable light on the biological relationship between the TaSeti nome of Egypt and the Wawat polities of Nubia.
I checked it out--Interesting and lots of valuable information. I think southern affinity should also be expected for other dynasties such as the 18th dynasty. There seems to have been lots of commotion going on to the South of Egypt at various times. It may point to undocumented migrations of highly mobile or nomadic and warlike pastoralist groups related to or similar to pastoralists in Africa today.I think some of the elites in Upper Egypt tried to save their own skin by probably marrying and forming alliances with certain factions of these groups.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: ^I need to mail you, but your inbox is full.
So OK, "Hit me up" with more than "?".
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Funny how they seem so reluctant to test these mummies...also funny that people still dont know that the Rock Hewn Speo Architecture of Ancient Egypt such as Abu Simbel was developed by Nubians and brought to Egypt by the Nubian derived 12th Dynasty.
I def. need to re-up my studies on this subject.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
it's not simply a matter of refusing to test, even when they're tested, they're only allowed to release limited data. Just curious, was Ramses' data released before or after the Amarna data?
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posted
And if these mummies were tested they wouldn't be showing SSA affinities. We already have the dental, cranial non-metric and metric data of Lower Nubians - they don't cluster with any SSA population, but North Africans [their closest geographical neighbours].
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: And if these mummies were tested they wouldn't be showing SSA affinities. We already have the dental, cranial non-metric and metric data of Lower Nubians - they don't cluster with any SSA population, but North Africans [their closest geographical neighbours].
They were already tested. The test was never made public however a statement was
quote: Contamination from handling and intrusion from microbes create obstacles to the recovery of ancient DNA.[1] Consequently, most DNA studies have been carried out on modern Egyptian populations with the intent of learning about the influences of historical migrations on the population of Egypt.[2][3][4][5] A study published in 1993 was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, which identified multiple lines of descent, some of which originated in Sub-Saharan Africa.[6]
which identified multiple lines of descent, some of which originated in Sub-Saharan Africa.
Is white supremacist code for they were some black motherfk#$@%s. For the lurkers, google image '12th dynasty statues'.
The reason why the Amarna family was tested was because their mummies had loose hair textures and narrow features. It was a gamble and it failed. The 12th dynasty inst even a gamble.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Well let Cass tell it the AE are Caucasoid levantine originating Hamites so the Egyptian gov has nothing to worry about
I don't actually claim this. I argue ancient Egyptians = modern Egyptians. What however I said is I wouldn't have a problem embracing Hamiticism if the DNA shows big Levant gene flow into Egypt. But whatever the case, Afrocentrists arguing ancient Egyptians had close affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans are wrong.
The options are Egyptcentrism (ancient Egyptians = modern Egyptians) or Hamiticsm (ancient Egyptians = ancient/modern Levantines), Afrocentrism in contrast has long been falsified and confined to loony-bin.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: And if these mummies were tested they wouldn't be showing SSA affinities. We already have the dental, cranial non-metric and metric data of Lower Nubians - they don't cluster with any SSA population, but North Africans [their closest geographical neighbours].
They were already tested. The test was never made public however a statement was
quote: Contamination from handling and intrusion from microbes create obstacles to the recovery of ancient DNA.[1] Consequently, most DNA studies have been carried out on modern Egyptian populations with the intent of learning about the influences of historical migrations on the population of Egypt.[2][3][4][5] A study published in 1993 was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, which identified multiple lines of descent, some of which originated in Sub-Saharan Africa.[6]
which identified multiple lines of descent, some of which originated in Sub-Saharan Africa.
Is white supremacist code for they were some black motherfk#$@%s. For the lurkers, google image '12th dynasty statues'.
The reason why the Amarna family was tested was because their mummies had loose hair textures and narrow features. It was a gamble and it failed. The 12th dynasty inst even a gamble.
we have to look at the statues without the noses broken off
Statue of Amenemhet III, 12th Dynasty, Luxor Museum, Egypt
When the noses are broken off they give the impression of a flatter nose. Some people didn't like these noses on the statues so they broke them off but they missed some
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: [qb] Well let Cass tell it the AE are Caucasoid levantine originating Hamites so the Egyptian gov has nothing to worry about
I don't actually claim this. I argue ancient Egyptians = modern Egyptians.
All many nations held empires over ancient Egypt during a time when you had to come in deep? You couldnt come in, shoot a few people grab your nuts and claim the city. You needed thousands and it helped to have an alliance with previous immigrants. This happened more than 5 times over as the population rose and declined between 5 and 10 million then happened another 5 times over as the population rose to 80. The language and the culture changed.
That the art is not of modern Egyptians. The features have shifted and the skin has lightened. Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Well let Cass tell it the AE are Caucasoid levantine originating Hamites so the Egyptian gov has nothing to worry about
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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When the noses are broken off they give the impression of a flatter nose. Some people didn't like these noses on the statues so they broke them off but they missed some
Like I said before we will have to agree to disagree. That gonzo nose screams refurb. The gonzo nose does not match the thick lips, high cheekbones and prognathous or his nearest relatives with intact noses like his grandfather's
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Well let Cass tell it the AE are Caucasoid levantine originating Hamites so the Egyptian gov has nothing to worry about
I don't actually claim this. I argue ancient Egyptians = modern Egyptians. What however I said is I wouldn't have a problem embracing Hamiticism if the DNA shows big Levant gene flow into Egypt. But whatever the case, Afrocentrists arguing ancient Egyptians had close affinity to Sub-Saharan Africans are wrong.
The options are Egyptcentrism (ancient Egyptians = modern Egyptians) or Hamiticsm (ancient Egyptians = ancient/modern Levantines), Afrocentrism in contrast has long been falsified and confined to loony-bin.
The inane Hamitic theory has long been untenable and will never be revived, your flights of fancy notwithstanding. Ancient Egypt was a Northeast African Sudanese transplant created by people that stretch from Upper Egypt down to the Horn.
Northeast Africans in the Horn are technically part of "Sub-Saharan" Africa and it was these people that populated Upper Egypt and created ancient Egypt. You desperately want to believe that 'blacks' are confined to "Sub-Saharan" Africa and that dozens of black populations are not interspersed all throughout the Sahara.
Even if the results conclude that Lower Egypt was demographically overwhelmed by Asiatics in the latter stages of the dynastic period, it will not change the fact that Upper Egyptians and "Nubians" have a common origin and have been indistinguishable since the predynastic period and that it was they that established the civilization.
These people in Upper Egypt created and dominated ancient Egypt demographically, politically and economically until after the New Kingdom period, and so ancient Egypt was dominated by Northeast Africans resembling indigenous Upper Egyptians, "Nubians" of Egypt and North Sudan and the people of the Horn.
Native modern Egyptians in Upper Egypt represent what the vast majority of the ancients would have looked like - Northeast African blacks.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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That gonzo nose screams refurb. The gonzo nose does not match the thick lips, high cheekbones and prognathous or his nearest relatives with intact noses like his grandfather's
No it screams you don't know African diversity and North East Africa phenotypes
Bust Of Amenemhat III (1843-1798 B.C.) 12th Dynasty
You have to have evidence that something is fake you can't just say it's fake because you don't like it. Ancient Egypt had a wide variety of phenotypes and this is also evident in the skulls and mummies.
Statue of Amenemhat III, about 1859-1814 BC, Middle Kingdom, Dynasty 12, reign of Amenemhat III, granodiorite - Cleveland Museum of Art
^ Notice in this one, again Amenemhat III, the nose is broken but you can see the prominent upper part of the nose and it's narrowness
Senusret III
^ notice the same thing here, the nose is broken but you can see it's thinness at top
Khafre , 4th dynasty
It's that African diversity punching in the face
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The dominant look of ancient Egypt. lioness is right on this matter. There is no evidence that those statues are fake. There are Northeast Africans that look exactly like those statues. Some people want to believe that the ancient Egyptians looked like Congolese.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
The simplest explanation is that the gonzo nose is a refurb. When you really look at the 12th dynasty you see typical African features.
Not necessarily strong
But signature cheekbones
signature prognathism
hair
hair styles
So when I see images like this I conclude that its more logical that this is a contemporary refurb or a race bias refurb rather than African diversity.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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No it screams you don't know African diversity and North East Africa phenotypes
I'm just applying Occam's Razor and looking at it scientifically.
No, there is nothing scientific about what you are doing.
^ and you are still putting up broken nose pieces like this one that has no remaining part of the nose. So he could have had a long narrow nose or a broad flat nose. You can't tell anything from this.
Seti I and the goddess Hathor (19th Dynasty: 1200s BC) painted relief
I then conclude that this is not diversity this is fukery. Either its the artist of their time or racism. Racism has a track record. I can do the same thing with Thutmose iii, Ramses ii, Hatshetsup, and 8 other strategically targeted people in history. I made a video about how egypt is whitewashed with receipts. You even have questionable stuff in the 12th dynasty
Is this a refurb in progress?
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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That gonzo nose screams refurb. The gonzo nose does not match the thick lips, high cheekbones and prognathous or his nearest relatives with intact noses like his grandfather's
No it screams you don't know African diversity and North East Africa phenotypes
Bust Of Amenemhat III (1843-1798 B.C.) 12th Dynasty
You have to have evidence that something is fake you can't just say it's fake because you don't like it. Ancient Egypt had a wide variety of phenotypes and this is also evident in the skulls and mummies.
Statue of Amenemhat III, about 1859-1814 BC, Middle Kingdom, Dynasty 12, reign of Amenemhat III, granodiorite - Cleveland Museum of Art
^ Notice in this one, again Amenemhat III, the nose is broken but you can see the prominent upper part of the nose and it's narrowness
Senusret III
^ notice the same thing here, the nose is broken but you can see it's thinness at top
Khafre , 4th dynasty
It's that African diversity punching in the face
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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