posted
So the oldest node of R-V88 is found in Africa(Fulbe-Sahel) and NOT Sardinia, although there was an ancient separation. They did not include SSA further south? . Added to that the diversity of R-V88 in Africa is off the charts. All this point to the Sahara was probably the source populations for most of the lineage. The Sahel and parts of Europe is where these people fled to with the encroaching desert.
To those who are following. Cape Verde phenotype is reflective of ancient La Brana, Villabruna, Loschbour and now Cheddar man. They have a high frequency of R1b but it has not been resolved whether it is R1b-V88. I am thinking if the Cape Verde R1b is tested at higher resolution it may be R-V88 and much older than those in not only in Europe but the Fulbe/Sahel.
@Capra – What do you say to the Cape Verdeans? Are they “love children” from the Portuguese colonialist ala Davidski? Get their dataset.
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edit- I will look at what you just posted next
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Eugenia D’Atanasio†, Beniamino Trombetta†, Maria Bonito, Andrea Finocchio, Genny Di Vito, Mara Seghizzi, Rita Romano, Gianluca Russo, Giacomo Maria Paganotti, Elizabeth Watson, Alfredo Coppa, Paolo Anagnostou, Jean-Michel Dugoujon, Pedro Moral, Daniele Sellitto, Andrea Novelletto and Fulvio Cruciani. (2018).The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages. Genome Biology 201819:20 . https://doi.org/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5
The study claims that V88 is of European origin.
quote:
Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration. Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52].
It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia
This article is nothing more than conjecture. whereas, we have archaeological evidence of Africans migrating into Europe, practicing Bell Beaker Culture, who introduced V88, there is no archaeological evidence of a back migration from Europe to Africa.
This article is nothing more than a White Supremacist article, based solely on statistical analysis without any ancient DNA. Sardinia was not the source of V88 in Europe. LOL, they have now made the African clades R-V88 (R-M18 and R-V35) European. RAW Paste Data
The study claims that V88 is of European origin.
quote:
Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration. Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52].
It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia
This article is nothing more than conjecture. whereas, we have archaeological evidence of Africans migrating into Europe, practicing Bell Beaker Culture, who introduced V88, there is no archaeological evidence of a back migration from Europe to Africa.
This article is nothing more than a White Supremacist article, based solely on statistical analysis without any ancient DNA. Sardinia was not the source of V88 in Europe. LOL, they have now made the African clades R-V88 (R-M18 and R-V35) European.
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2010 appears to have been an important year for geneticists. It was then that they developed the idea that African R1 carriers were mainly V88.
This was a momentous time because at the same time they found the DNA of the ancient Europeans. It was after this finding that researchers and ISOGG started changing the terminology and nomenclature for V88 and its clades to attempt to make the ancient Europeans Indo-Europeans, eventhough the craniometrics illustrated they were Blacks not whites.
It amazes me that Eurocentric researchers can white Black people out of history even when the evidence tells a different story.
Fu et al (2016) gives a fine discussion of the genetic history of Europe. It is interesting to note that the authors claim that the oldest R1b-M343 lineages, is 14 KYA Villabruna Man from Italy. The Villabruna man carried R1b1.
To disguise the African ancestry of the ancient Europeans Geno-Hamiticists change the name/number of African haplogroups to differentiate them from Europeans carrying the same haplogroup. R1b1 and Rlb1a were clades belonging to V88.
R1b1 and R1b1a do not change just because you give it a different number. Below is Cruciani et al (2010). .
.
References:
Fu, Q., Posth, C., Hajdinjak, M., Petr, M., Mallick, S., Fernandes, D., … Reich, D. (2016). The genetic history of Ice Age Europe. Nature, 534(7606), 200–205. http://doi.org/10.1038/nature17993
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ok last random notes then i'll look at E-M2
Chad paper by Haber et al (2016) had a Toubou Y seemingly on the branch leading to V4453 (same Peruvian sample), so that may occur in Africa as well. hard to say where the Jewish subclade originated but considering it hasn't shown up in non-Jewish Southern Europe or North Africa, there is a bunch of untested V88 around the Dead Sea, and there is a distant Saudi relative on the YF tree, it may actually be from Palestine (and if so could of course have come from Egypt earlier on, or vice versa). diversity of R1b-V88 in Egypt is striking (especially Siwa Oasis).
no sign of R1b-V88 in East Africa (0/267 Great Lakes people, 0/425 Horners), as expected. too few samples from south of the Equator (excluding Great Lakes) to say anything, and no Sudanese.
anyway looking at Central Africa:
Sara speakers (Central Sudanic) from far southern Chad have entirely R1b-V6225 (14%) and the highest frequency of this subclade, though it shows up as far away as Egypt. the time depth in Sara is 4600-6600 years. Haber et al found minor Eurasian admixture LD signal in Sara dating to ~3900-4800 years ago and in nearby Laal (who also have around 20% R1b-V88) ~4800-7200 years ago. but this does not necessarily have anything to do with R1b-V88, especially since Laal has lots of linguistic influence from Chadic which i doubt is that old.
Mbum/Kebi-Benue (Adamawa?) speakers also have very high frequency of R1b-V88, quite diverse. however most of the sample is from the northernmost peoples, Toupouri and Moundang, who are flanked by Chadic speakers. Toupouri language also has heavy Chadic lexical influence according to Blench. These northern ones have 60% R1b-V88 (43/70) while the southern ones (Mboum and Tali) have only 6% (2/32). so could be due to recent assimilation of other people.
Fali, speaking another unsorted Niger-Congo language, have 22% of R1b-V1589* and R1b-V516 subclades. they too are in contact with Chadic speakers as well as Fulbe and others.
Only 7 Kanuri in whole study, 1 having R1b-V6225, can't say anything. they assimilated lots of locals including Chadic speakers but also contact with Bagirmi speakers (related to Sara). Fulbe from Cameroon had 18% R1b-V88 of mixed kinds, the small sample from Niger and Nigeria less. they are almost certainly recent arrivals from the west who have assimilated locals also.
small sample of Bantoid speakers from South Cameroon has only 1 (1%) R1b-V88 (as mentioned in previous post), an Ewondo, from Fang-Beti linguistic group which is prominent in Gabon. only one sample so can't say anything about age or source of R1b-V88 in West Bantu area. some quite basal samples in Benin and southern Nigeria too.
Chadic populations: total they had ~50% (114/224) R1b-V88, all under R1b-V1589, with a high proportion of R1b-V69 - including some of its R1b-V515 branch, which is well-represented in Egypt.
if R1b-V88 came in with Chadic speakers as has been suggested when and where was that? to me best candidate for arrival of Central Chadic is Gajiganna Culture pastoralists originating to north settling where lake waters have receded ~2000 BC. (but then there is a big discontinuity in Early Iron Age, as in much of West Africa.) East and West Chadic coming south from areas with similar pottery decoration between Air and Ennedi (no archaelogical evidence east and west of Lake Chad to speak of). all based on very tenuous stuff.
this seems awfully late though, it can hardly be the whole story in the southern regions if correct at all. of course main expansion and diversification would have taken place furthern north in Green Sahara pastoralist phase.
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Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosome Variation Provides Evidence for a Recent Common Ancestry between Native Americans and Indigenous Altaians
Matthew C. Dulik,1 Sergey I. Zhadanov,1,2 Ludmila P. Osipova,2 Ayken Askapuli,1,3 Lydia Gau,1 Omer Gokcumen,1,4 Samara Rubinstein,1,5 and Theodore G. Schurr1,∗
As with the mtDNA data set, we also observed differences in NRY haplogroup composition among northern Altaian populations, where each ethnic group shared haplogroups with the other two, yet had distinct haplogroup profiles. Overall, Kumandins had the most disparate haplogroup frequencies of the northern Altaians, exhibiting similar number of N-P43 chromosomes as the Chelkans, which were quite similar to those found in Khanty and Mansi populations in northwestern Siberia. In addition, a large proportion of Kumandin Y chromosomes belonged to R-M73. This haplogroup is largely restricted to Central Asia but has also been found in Altaian Kazakhs and other southern Siberians. In fact, Myres et al. noted two distinct clusters of R-M73 STR haplotypes, with one of them containing Y chromosomes bearing a 19 repeat allele for DYS390, which appears to be unique to R-M73. Interestingly, the majority of Kumandin R-M73 haplotypes fell into this category, although haplotypes from both clusters are found in southern Siberia
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R1b-V88 migration through Southern Italy into Green Sahara corridor, and the Afroasiatic connection
Carlos Quiles Afroasiatic, Anthropology, Archaeology, Culture, Genetics, Indo-European, Linguistics, Proto-Indo-European, Uralic February 13, 2018
Abstract
Background
Little is known about the peopling of the Sahara during the Holocene climatic optimum, when the desert was replaced by a fertile environment.
Results
In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we deep-sequence the whole non-repetitive portion of the Y chromosome in 104 males selected as representative of haplogroups which are currently found to the north and to the south of the Sahara. We identify 5,966 mutations, from which we extract 142 informative markers then genotyped in about 8,000 subjects from 145 African, Eurasian and African American populations. We find that the coalescence age of the trans-Saharan haplogroups dates back to the last Green Sahara, while most northern African or sub-Saharan clades expanded locally in the subsequent arid phase.
Conclusions
Our findings suggest that the Green Sahara promoted human movements and demographic expansions, possibly linked to the adoption of pastoralism. Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.
A consequence of this is that there is a strong differentiation in the Y chromosome haplogroup composition between the northern and sub-Saharan regions of the African continent. In the northern area, the predominant Y lineages are J-M267 and E-M81, with the former being linked to the Neolithic expansion in the Near East and the latter reaching frequencies as high as 80 % in some north-western populations as a consequence of a very recent local demographic expansion [8, 9, 10]. On the contrary, sub-Saharan Africa is characterised by a completely different genetic landscape, with lineages within E-M2 and haplogroup B comprising most of the Y chromosomes. In most regions of sub-Saharan Africa, the observed haplogroup distribution has been linked to the recent (~ 3 kya) demic diffusion of Bantu agriculturalists, which brought E-M2 sub-clades from central Africa to the East and to the South [11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17]. On the contrary, the sub-Saharan distribution of B-M150 seems to have more ancient origins, since its internal lineages are present in both Bantu farmers and non-Bantu hunter-gatherers and coalesce long before the Bantu expansion [18, 19, 20].
In spite of their genetic differentiation, however, northern and sub-Saharan Africa share at least four patrilineages at different frequencies, namely A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88.
A3-M13 is typical of eastern Africa, where it is found with a frequency as high as 40 % and is prevalent in the Nilo-Saharan populations, in particular among Nilotic pastoralists [14, 18, 21]. A3-M13 chromosomes have also been observed in central and northern Africa, at frequencies ranging from 1 to 7 % [12, 18, 22, 23]. Outside Africa, this haplogroup has been found at very low frequency in both the Middle East and Sardinia [23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30].
As described above, E-M2 is a sub-Saharan clade which has been often associated with the Bantu expansion. However, E-M2 chromosomes have also been found at low frequencies (2–10 %) in northern Africa [8, 9, 22, 23, 31, 32].
E-M78 is a widespread lineage, with significant frequencies in Africa, Europe and the Middle East [33, 34]. Within the African continent, three E-M78 sub-clades (E-V22, E-V12 and E-V264) show different frequencies in different regions. E-V22 is mainly an eastern African sub-haplogroup, with frequencies of more than 80 % in the Saho population from Eritrea, but it has also been reported in Egypt and Morocco [34, 35, 36]. E-V12 is relatively frequent in northern and eastern Africa, but it has also been reported outside Africa at lower frequencies [33, 34, 35]. The vast majority of the eastern African E-V12 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32, which has also been observed in northern and central Africa at very low frequencies [12, 33, 34, 35]. E-V264 is subdivided into two sub-clades: E-V65, common in northern Africa; and E-V259, which includes few central African chromosomes [33, 34, 35].
R-V88 has been observed at high frequencies in the central Sahel (northern Cameroon, northern Nigeria, Chad and Niger) and it has also been reported at low frequencies in northwestern Africa [37]. Outside the African continent, two rare R-V88 sub-lineages (R-M18 and R-V35) have been observed in Near East and southern Europe (particularly in Sardinia) [30, 37, 38, 39]. Because of its ethno-geographic distribution in the central Sahel, R-V88 has been linked to the spread of the Chadic branch of the Afroasiatic linguistic family [37, 40].
In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we performed targeted next generation sequencing (NGS) of ~ 3.3 Mb of 104 Y chromosomes mostly belonging to these four lineages. We also analysed the geographic distribution of 142 informative single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) by genotyping about 8000 male subjects from 145 world-wide populations (including 17 populations from literature), with a particular focus on the African ethnic groups. Our findings were consistent with the hypothesis that the Green Sahara allowed extensive human movements, excluding recent historical events, such as the Arab slave trade, as a major determinant of the male gene pool of present-day northern African populations.
Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts.
The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia,
while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration.
Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52]. It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia [57].
The multifurcated structure of the E-M2 is suggestive of a first demographic expansion, which occurred about 10.5 kya, at the beginning of the last Green Sahara (Fig. 2; Additional file 2: Figure S4). After this initial expansion, we found that most of the trans-Saharan lineages within A3-M13, E-M2 and R-V88 radiated in a narrow time interval at 8–7 kya, suggestive of population expansions that may have occurred in the same time (Fig. 2; Additional file 2: Figures S3, S4 and S6). Interestingly, during roughly the same period, the Saharan populations adopted pastoralism, probably as an adaptive strategy against a short arid period [1, 62, 63]. So, the exploitation of pastoralism resources and the reestablishment of wetter conditions could have triggered the simultaneous population expansions observed here. R-V88 also shows signals of a further and more recent (~ 5.5 kya) Saharan demographic expansion which involved the R-V1589 internal clade. We observed similar demographic patterns in all the other haplogroups in about the same period and in different geographic areas (A3-M13/V3, E-M2/V3862 and E-M78/V32 in the Horn of Africa, E-M2/M191 in the central Sahel/central Africa), in line with the hypothesis that the start of the desertification may have caused massive economic, demographic and social changes
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R1b-V88 migration through Southern Italy into Green Sahara corridor, and the Afroasiatic connection
Carlos Quiles Afroasiatic, Anthropology, Archaeology, Culture, Genetics, Indo-European, Linguistics, Proto-Indo-European, Uralic February 13, 2018
Abstract
Background
Little is known about the peopling of the Sahara during the Holocene climatic optimum, when the desert was replaced by a fertile environment.
Results
In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we deep-sequence the whole non-repetitive portion of the Y chromosome in 104 males selected as representative of haplogroups which are currently found to the north and to the south of the Sahara. We identify 5,966 mutations, from which we extract 142 informative markers then genotyped in about 8,000 subjects from 145 African, Eurasian and African American populations. We find that the coalescence age of the trans-Saharan haplogroups dates back to the last Green Sahara, while most northern African or sub-Saharan clades expanded locally in the subsequent arid phase.
Conclusions
Our findings suggest that the Green Sahara promoted human movements and demographic expansions, possibly linked to the adoption of pastoralism. Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.
A consequence of this is that there is a strong differentiation in the Y chromosome haplogroup composition between the northern and sub-Saharan regions of the African continent. In the northern area, the predominant Y lineages are J-M267 and E-M81, with the former being linked to the Neolithic expansion in the Near East and the latter reaching frequencies as high as 80 % in some north-western populations as a consequence of a very recent local demographic expansion [8, 9, 10]. On the contrary, sub-Saharan Africa is characterised by a completely different genetic landscape, with lineages within E-M2 and haplogroup B comprising most of the Y chromosomes. In most regions of sub-Saharan Africa, the observed haplogroup distribution has been linked to the recent (~ 3 kya) demic diffusion of Bantu agriculturalists, which brought E-M2 sub-clades from central Africa to the East and to the South [11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17]. On the contrary, the sub-Saharan distribution of B-M150 seems to have more ancient origins, since its internal lineages are present in both Bantu farmers and non-Bantu hunter-gatherers and coalesce long before the Bantu expansion [18, 19, 20].
In spite of their genetic differentiation, however, northern and sub-Saharan Africa share at least four patrilineages at different frequencies, namely A3-M13, E-M2, E-M78 and R-V88.
A3-M13 is typical of eastern Africa, where it is found with a frequency as high as 40 % and is prevalent in the Nilo-Saharan populations, in particular among Nilotic pastoralists [14, 18, 21]. A3-M13 chromosomes have also been observed in central and northern Africa, at frequencies ranging from 1 to 7 % [12, 18, 22, 23]. Outside Africa, this haplogroup has been found at very low frequency in both the Middle East and Sardinia [23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30].
As described above, E-M2 is a sub-Saharan clade which has been often associated with the Bantu expansion. However, E-M2 chromosomes have also been found at low frequencies (2–10 %) in northern Africa [8, 9, 22, 23, 31, 32].
E-M78 is a widespread lineage, with significant frequencies in Africa, Europe and the Middle East [33, 34]. Within the African continent, three E-M78 sub-clades (E-V22, E-V12 and E-V264) show different frequencies in different regions. E-V22 is mainly an eastern African sub-haplogroup, with frequencies of more than 80 % in the Saho population from Eritrea, but it has also been reported in Egypt and Morocco [34, 35, 36]. E-V12 is relatively frequent in northern and eastern Africa, but it has also been reported outside Africa at lower frequencies [33, 34, 35]. The vast majority of the eastern African E-V12 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32, which has also been observed in northern and central Africa at very low frequencies [12, 33, 34, 35]. E-V264 is subdivided into two sub-clades: E-V65, common in northern Africa; and E-V259, which includes few central African chromosomes [33, 34, 35].
R-V88 has been observed at high frequencies in the central Sahel (northern Cameroon, northern Nigeria, Chad and Niger) and it has also been reported at low frequencies in northwestern Africa [37]. Outside the African continent, two rare R-V88 sub-lineages (R-M18 and R-V35) have been observed in Near East and southern Europe (particularly in Sardinia) [30, 37, 38, 39]. Because of its ethno-geographic distribution in the central Sahel, R-V88 has been linked to the spread of the Chadic branch of the Afroasiatic linguistic family [37, 40].
In order to investigate the role of the last Green Sahara in the peopling of Africa, we performed targeted next generation sequencing (NGS) of ~ 3.3 Mb of 104 Y chromosomes mostly belonging to these four lineages. We also analysed the geographic distribution of 142 informative single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) by genotyping about 8000 male subjects from 145 world-wide populations (including 17 populations from literature), with a particular focus on the African ethnic groups. Our findings were consistent with the hypothesis that the Green Sahara allowed extensive human movements, excluding recent historical events, such as the Arab slave trade, as a major determinant of the male gene pool of present-day northern African populations.
Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts.
The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia,
while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration.
Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52]. It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia [57].
The multifurcated structure of the E-M2 is suggestive of a first demographic expansion, which occurred about 10.5 kya, at the beginning of the last Green Sahara (Fig. 2; Additional file 2: Figure S4). After this initial expansion, we found that most of the trans-Saharan lineages within A3-M13, E-M2 and R-V88 radiated in a narrow time interval at 8–7 kya, suggestive of population expansions that may have occurred in the same time (Fig. 2; Additional file 2: Figures S3, S4 and S6). Interestingly, during roughly the same period, the Saharan populations adopted pastoralism, probably as an adaptive strategy against a short arid period [1, 62, 63]. So, the exploitation of pastoralism resources and the reestablishment of wetter conditions could have triggered the simultaneous population expansions observed here. R-V88 also shows signals of a further and more recent (~ 5.5 kya) Saharan demographic expansion which involved the R-V1589 internal clade. We observed similar demographic patterns in all the other haplogroups in about the same period and in different geographic areas (A3-M13/V3, E-M2/V3862 and E-M78/V32 in the Horn of Africa, E-M2/M191 in the central Sahel/central Africa), in line with the hypothesis that the start of the desertification may have caused massive economic, demographic and social changes
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosome Variation Provides Evidence for a Recent Common Ancestry between Native Americans and Indigenous Altaians
Matthew C. Dulik,1 Sergey I. Zhadanov,1,2 Ludmila P. Osipova,2 Ayken Askapuli,1,3 Lydia Gau,1 Omer Gokcumen,1,4 Samara Rubinstein,1,5 and Theodore G. Schurr1,∗
As with the mtDNA data set, we also observed differences in NRY haplogroup composition among northern Altaian populations, where each ethnic group shared haplogroups with the other two, yet had distinct haplogroup profiles. Overall, Kumandins had the most disparate haplogroup frequencies of the northern Altaians, exhibiting similar number of N-P43 chromosomes as the Chelkans, which were quite similar to those found in Khanty and Mansi populations in northwestern Siberia. In addition, a large proportion of Kumandin Y chromosomes belonged to R-M73. This haplogroup is largely restricted to Central Asia but has also been found in Altaian Kazakhs and other southern Siberians. In fact, Myres et al. noted two distinct clusters of R-M73 STR haplotypes, with one of them containing Y chromosomes bearing a 19 repeat allele for DYS390, which appears to be unique to R-M73. Interestingly, the majority of Kumandin R-M73 haplotypes fell into this category, although haplotypes from both clusters are found in southern Siberia
That was a funny post, considering that Cruciani had another paper out 2 years later. Enjoy,
quote: ‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).
[...]
Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).
[...]
Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF) Haplogroup affiliation for 51 Y chromosomes Table S1 analyzed in this study. (XLS)
—Fulvio Cruciani et al. (2012 )
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
quote: “Our data provide a highly resolved branching in the African-specific portion of the Y tree and support the hypothesis of an origin in the north-western quadrant of the African continent for the human MSY diversity.
[…]
A new deep branch within the “out of Africa” haplogroup C was also identified”
—R Scozzari, Fulvio Cruciani et al. 2014
An unbiased resource of novel SNP markers provides a new chronology for the human Y chromosome and reveals a deep phylogenetic structure in Africa
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: That was a funny post, considering that Cruciani had another paper out 2 years later.
oh right! i forgot, Ish hasn't passed the Turing test yet. maybe today will be the day, Ish, what's the significance of Cruciani et al 2012?
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Ish won Egyptsearch Spammer of the Year Award three years in a row , 2014, 2015,2016 he's trying to make a comeback for 2018.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: why am I supposed to enjoy it says nothing in contradiction to his earlier paper
So explain how these seven mutations work at the base-level CT and why these are positioned at the root? How come on chromosomes was found in DE?
Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).
Explain why are the remainder four mutations of R positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205)?
Why is that?
quote: Abstract
Our data provide a highly resolved branching in the African-specific portion of the Y tree and support the hypothesis of an origin in the north-western quadrant of the African continent for the human MSY diversity.
[…]
A new deep branch within the “out of Africa” haplogroup C was also identified
—Fulvio Cruciani et al.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ish won Egyptsearch Spammer of the Year Award three years in a row , 2014, 2015,2016 he's trying to make a comeback for 2018.
It’s clear you have nothing relevant to say as most of the time, so you do the usual divert and derail. The only one who is known for doing the spamming is you and you only. Never had the nerve dissect a publication, except when it spoke positive of African populations.
"R-V88 is also rare in Africa as a whole but is very high in some groups in the Chad Basin around Cameroon."
Most likely R follows its own Paleolithic streamline in Africa, before leaving Africa.
Lioness what are the chromosomes for M173 and M343?
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Since you mentioned Cruciani as the prime source.
I am still waiting for you to explain why, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and are positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1), before leaving Africa. Why is that? lol
Explain why are the four remainder mutations of R positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205)? Why is that? lol
C, CT, CF, F and DE have an African origin, the chromosomes that make up R cluster with the aforementioned Hg's before leaving Africa! lol
quote:
We estimated the TMRCA of human Y chromosomes as 338 kya (95% CI = 237–581 kya). Using a joint likelihood20 and the same mutation rate, we also estimated a divergence time between A0 chromosomes and the human reference as 202 kya (95% CI = 125–382 kya), a time that is older than that previously obtained by Cruciani et al. (142 kya).6 This discrepancy in the age of A0 is due to the fact that the earlier study did not utilize mutation rates based on recently obtained whole-genome sequence data.14; 15; 16; 17 ; 18 If we were to use the higher mutation rate (1.0 × 10−9 per base per year6) rather than a realistic range derived from whole-genome sequencing (4.39 × 10−10 − 7.07 × 10−10), the estimated TMRCA for the tree incorporating A00 as the basal lineage would be 209 kya, which is only slightly older than current estimates of the TMRCA of mtDNA and the age of the oldest AMH fossil remains. We note, however, that the higher mutation rate produces an estimate for the common ancestor of all non-African Y chromosome haplogroups (C through T) of ∼39 kya6 (i.e., versus ∼63 kya for the mutation rate used here). It is difficult to reconcile the younger estimate with the timing of the out-of-Africa dispersal on the basis of the analyses of autosomal DNA21 and the fossil record outside of Africa.22; 23; 24 ; 25 Regardless of which mutation rate is applied, the analysis of relative ages of nodes26 shows that the TMRCA of the A00-rooted tree is 67% older (95% CI = 35%–126%) than that of the A0-rooted tree.
Genotyping of a DNA sample that was submitted to a commercial genetic-testing facility demonstrated that the Y chromosome of this African American individual carried the ancestral state of all known Y chromosome SNPs. To further characterize this lineage, which we dubbed A00 (see Figure S1, available online, for proposed nomenclature), we sequenced multiple regions (totaling ∼240 kb) of the X-degenerate portion of this chromosome, as well as a subset of these regions (∼180 kb) on a chromosome belonging to the previously known basal lineage A1b (which we rename here as A0).
—Michael F. Hammer Fernando L. Mendez et al.
An African American Paternal Lineage Adds an Extremely Ancient Root to the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
quote: The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites). To retain the information from the reference MSY tree13 as much as possible, we named this clade A1a-T (Figure 1). Within A1a-T, the transversion V221 separates A1a from a monophyletic clade (called A2-T) consisting of three branches: A2, A3, and BT, the latter being supported by ten mutations (Figure 1)
.
—Fulvio Cruciani et al
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
Nope, it DID NOT. It originated in Africa and drifted from there into the near East etc…
show us any article that argues R1 originates in Africa
I showed you the politics. One does not have to say it, one can leave out data.
The simple reason why a back migration was suggested comes from a 2002 paper, here the proposed a phylogenetic inferences based on the lack of certain chromosomes in African populations. This was before DE etc. was found in Africa. Studies today as posted by you still use this old phylogenetic inferences path and totally skip the newer / later evidence.
quote: An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.
Group IX Chromosomes in Sub-Saharan Africa: An Asian Origin?
How can the presence of Group IX chromosomes at considerable frequency in Cameroon be explained? A priori, we can envision three possibilities. First, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon are due to rather recent male gene flow from Europe or the Near East. Second, the entire M9 superclade (haplogroups VII–X) has an African origin. Third, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon represent a footprint of a male back migration from Asia to Africa. The first scenario seems to be very unlikely, because only derived haplotypes, carrying the M269 or M17/SRY10831 mutations, have been detected in western Eurasia. The second hypothesis, an African origin of the M9 superclade that includes haplotype 117, would imply a subsequent impressive extinction of derivative lineages in sub-Saharan Africa, since no other haplotypes carrying the M9 mutation (haplogroups VII–X) have been observed in this region (the only exception being represented by a few haplotype 109 chromosomes found in the Fulbe from Cameroon). The last scenario, that of a back migration from Asia to Africa, currently appears to be by far the most plausible. This is because most of the M9 haplotypes (the majority of group VII and VIII lineages, as well as some group IX and X lineages reported by Underhill et al. [2000]) have been observed only in Asia. Moreover, this possibility appears to be further supported by the recent finding of the UTY2+/M173− intermediate haplotype (Karafet et al. 2001) in central and northeastern Asia (the UTY2 marker in the study by Karafet et al. [2001] corresponds to M207 in the present study).
—Fulvio Crucian et al. A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
However in the 2011 paper they found chromosomes to be matching, which lacked presence in prior studies, thus the phylogenetic needed a reevaluation. And the painful conclusions can be read, in more recent papers published by Fulvio Crucian et al. As posted prior.
quote: In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.
—Fulvio Cruciani et al. A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
This is by your great friend, Razib Khan who is scared to touch the positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (deep in his heart he knows):
quote:I don’t know the technical details of the calibration well here, last I checked the dates for Y chromosomal lineages were a total mess. So I’m not going to express confidence in this specific value, but, it does align well with a suspicion among many people that the idea of modern humans all tracing back to ancestors on the order of ~50,000 years B.P. just isn’t tenable any longer (this excludes the issue of possible admixture with other lineages such as Neandertals).
Subsequent studies dealing with the MSY diversity in Africa have confirmed the presence of R-P25*(xM269) in northern Cameroon at high frequencies23 and, at lower frequencies (mean 5%, range 0–20%), of R-P25* immediately south of Cameroon, in several populations from Gabon.25 Interestingly, chromosomes of haplogroup R-P25/R-M173, ancestral for M269 as well as for other ‘EURASIAN’ DOWNSTREAM MARKERS, have been found to be present in northern Africa (1% in Algeria, 4% in Tunisia, and 2–4% in Egypt).20,23,26 The presence of R-P25 Y chromosomes has also been reported in population groups from the Sudan;27 however, as no internal markers were typed, the sub-haplogroup affiliation of these chromosomes remains undefined. To shed some light on the past demographic processes that determined the present distribution of R-P25* in Africa, we searched for new MSY mutations refining the phylogeny of haplogroup R1b, and surveyed a wide range of African populations (4180 males from 69 populations) for the presence of the R1b haplogroup. More than 3500 subjects from Europe and Asia were also analyzed for the same haplogroup to obtain a better insight into the Asia-to-Africa back migration associated with this haplogroup.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: It’s in the title:
“Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree “
I have addressed math problems here:
ah, i think we'll count that as a pass. congratulations!
you still have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about, of course.
Your rant reminded me of a white surpramacist who thinks he has a high IQ by default because of his pasty recessive threads, however thus far you’ve failed to show CREDIBLE migration industries into Africa, but somehow magically all these migratedions skipped large parts of Africa. All is based on bayesian statistics.
quote: According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect. Similar figure have been suggested for sub-Saharan Africa populations [1]. The antiquity of the east African gene pool could be viewed not only from the perspective of the amount of genetic diversity endowed within it but also by signals of uni-modal distribution in their mitochondrial DNA (Hassan et al., unpublished) usually taken as an indication of populations that have passed through ‘‘recent’’ demographic expansion [33], although in this case, may in fact be considered a sign of extended shared history of in situ evolution where alleles are exchanged between neighboring demes [34].
--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.
The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size
PLoS One. 2014; 9(5): e97674. Published online 2014 May 20. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0097674
So tell, did you solve the bayesian riddle?
Let’s put it this way.
If a Canadian is Egyptsearch and complains about law enforcement mistreatment, how likely is it that the average Canadian complains about law enforcement mistreatment, based on a bayesian model? In fact how many would complain about mistreatment by law enforcement.
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population 30+ million, sample of 1. why are you making a frigging Bayesian model? your prior is already the answer. holy god man you are trying to teach me statistics now? have you bothered to learn what a gene is yet?
now HOW do you still think, somehow, that R cannot have back-migrated unless E did too? here, a nice simple historical scenario: CT, CF, DE, E all originated in Africa. C, F, D migrated out of Africa, E remained. much later on R arose from F in Asia. some R descendants migrated back to Africa. what is preventing this? don't just cut and paste some shit, don't suddenly change the subject to archaeology. explain. then we can fix whatever your fundamental misunderstanding is.
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6) Xyyman's Arrow - haplogroups always flow from Africa to Eurasia and not the other way around. proof: it is self-evident that all haplogroups found in Africa are African. therefore, if the same haplogroup is found in Eurasia it is still African. therefore it must have originated in Africa. this holds for all haplogroups.
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1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup – Genius 95% of aDNa done so far is on Europeans. The few done on Africans has shattered many myths. Malawi-Hora_8100BP and Kefi with 20,000 yo mtDNA H in Africa. Achilli back-migration 10,000years ago. NOT!? 2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup - True, all things being equal 4) frequency of the haplogroup – True to some extent but diversity trumps frequency, all things being equal. Frequency just means a “founder effect”. *) ----- In short diversity or presence of ancestral and downstream clades or sub-haplogroups is the MAIN criteria for determining “origin” Frequency has limited value since founder effects influence frequency positively.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by
1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup 2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup 4) frequency of the haplogroup *)
*5) inside of circles xyyman draws on charts
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by capra: 6) For haplogroups flowing from Africa to Eurasia and not the other way around. proof: it is self-evident that all haplogroups found in Africa are African. therefore, if the same haplogroup is found in Eurasia it is still African. therefore it must have originated in Africa. this holds for all haplogroups.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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6) Xyyman's Arrow - haplogroups always flow from Africa to Eurasia and not the other way around. proof: it is self-evident that all haplogroups found in Africa are African. therefore, if the same haplogroup is found in Eurasia it is still African. therefore it must have originated in Africa. this holds for all haplogroups.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: It’s in the title:
“Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree “
I have addressed math problems here:
ah, i think we'll count that as a pass. congratulations!
you still have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about, of course.
He thinks CT is R
No dimwit, I never claimed anything like that.
quote:However, clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R)
[…]
The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).
--Fulvio Cruciani
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by capra: population 30+ million, sample of 1. why are you making a frigging Bayesian model? your prior is already the answer. holy god man you are trying to teach me statistics now? have you bothered to learn what a gene is yet?
now HOW do you still think, somehow, that R cannot have back-migrated unless E did too? here, a nice simple historical scenario: CT, CF, DE, E all originated in Africa. C, F, D migrated out of Africa, E remained. much later on R arose from F in Asia. some R descendants migrated back to Africa. what is preventing this? don't just cut and paste some shit, don't suddenly change the subject to archaeology. explain. then we can fix whatever your fundamental misunderstanding is.
Magically you are this supped statistical analysts.
"population 30+ million, sample of 1. "
Don't act as if this is uncommon in these BAISED models. As if 10 samples would be sufficient.
quote:"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."
--Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007
Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations
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dude can you please for once in your life just answer the damn question. why does E back-migrating or not have anything to do with R back-migrating like 50 000 years later?
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quote:Originally posted by capra: dude can you please for once in your life just answer the damn question. why does E back-migrating or not have anything to do with R back-migrating like 50 000 years later?
So which are older? C, F, D or CF, DE? You can apply a Bayesian model if you want.
The sneaky intrusion of "back migration".
quote: deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).
[…]
clade A (four chromosomes belonging to haplogroups A1a, A1b, A2, and A3), clade B, and clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R)
--Fulvio Cruciani
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [qb]It’s in the title:
“Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree “
I have addressed math problems here:
ah, i think we'll count that as a pass. congratulations!
you still have absolutely no earthly idea what you are talking about, of course.
He thinks CT is R
No dimwit, I never claimed anything like that.
I'm not sure you're sure what you claimed, you seem a "little" mixed up
Of course you don't. So your usual derail is it is mixed up blah blah blah…
Perhaps you can explain why, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and are positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1), before leaving Africa. Why is that?
quote:However, clade CT (two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R)
[…]
The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).
--Fulvio Cruciani
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in AfricaPosts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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6) Xyyman's Arrow - haplogroups always flow from Africa to Eurasia and not the other way around. proof: it is self-evident that all haplogroups found in Africa are African. therefore, if the same haplogroup is found in Eurasia it is still African. therefore it must have originated in Africa. this holds for all haplogroups.
^Afrocentricity
Says the eurocen-tricks. Because "white is right".
Any mutation from a drift out of African into the near east is acclaimed as eurasian. Tell this is not true. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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long ago, about 75 000 years ago, a certain man had two sons, who grew up to have sons of their own. this man (the most recent common ancestor of CT) had a particular set of mutations in his Y chromosome. he transmitted a copy of his Y chromosome (with all these mutations) to his sons, who in turn transmitted it to their sons, and so on. one of the two sons was the forefathers of all CF, one was the forefather of all DE.
now as copies of this Y chromosome were transmitted from father to son, over thousands of years, from time to time new mutations occurred, added to the mutations that the forefather of CT already had. since all of C, DE, and R are descendants of CT, they all have CT's mutations, plus their own sets of mutations.
so, a set of mutations shared by C, R and DE go back to CT. in fact they define CT, they are the reason CT exists. and these CT mutations occurred (probably) before Out-of-Africa. many tens of thousands of years before R came into existence.
long ago, about 75 000 years ago, a certain man had two sons, who grew up to have sons of their own. this man (the most recent common ancestor of CT) had had a particular set of mutations in his Y chromosome. he transmitted a copy of his Y chromosome (with all these mutations) to his sons, who in turn transmitted it to their sons, and so on. one of the two sons was the forefathers of all CF, one was the forefather of all DE.
now as copies of this Y chromosome were transmitted from father to son, over thousands of years, from time to time new mutations occurred, added to the mutations that the forefather of CT already had. since all of C, DE, and R are descendants of CT, they all have CT's mutations, plus their own sets of mutations.
so, a set of mutations shared by C, R and DE go back to CT. in fact they define CT, they are the reason CT exists. and these CT mutations occurred (probably) before Out-of-Africa. many tens of thousands of years before R came into existence.
okay?
The problem is, your timing is made up (off), because the mutation already was present with in the group (s) who carried the older clades. Okey?
quote:Recently, in a re-sequencing study of the Y chromosome, the root of the tree moved to a new position and several changes at the basal nodes of the phylogeny were introduced [16]. Interestingly, the estimated coalescence age and deep branching pattern of the revised MSY tree appear to be more similar to those of the mtDNA phylogeny [17], [18] than previously reported [1].
—Fulvio Cruciani et al Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree 2012
quote: In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.
—Fulvio Cruciani et al. A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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the forefather of CT inherited most of his mutations from BT, those are shared with B. the forefather of BT inherited most of his mutations from A2-T, those are shared with A2 and A3. the forefather of A2-T inherited most of his mutations from A1a-T, those are shared with A1a. and so on. the same mutations are passed on all the way to the present. you and i both carry the mutations that occurred way back then.
that's what the whole tree is based on, which mutations are shared and which aren't.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.
why would they both have to originate on the same continent?
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
—Fulvio Cruciani, Beniamino Trombetta,Rosaria Scozzari et al.
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posted
Stop playing games Capra. It is difficult to distinguish between C and R depending on resolution. Thus CT is sometimes the best the result may show. This is seen with some of the Natufian results. Eg E??(xE1b1??). The results or the mutation is not resolved.
quote:Originally posted by capra: what part of this are you not getting?
the forefather of CT inherited most of his mutations from BT, those are shared with B. the forefather of BT inherited most of his mutations from A2-T, those are shared with A2 and A3. the forefather of A2-T inherited most of his mutations from A1a-T, those are shared with A1a. and so on. the same mutations are passed on all the way to the present. you and i both carry the mutations that occurred way back then.
that's what the whole tree is based on, which mutations are shared and which aren't.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by capra: what part of this are you not getting?
the forefather of CT inherited most of his mutations from BT, those are shared with B. the forefather of BT inherited most of his mutations from A2-T, those are shared with A2 and A3. the forefather of A2-T inherited most of his mutations from A1a-T, those are shared with A1a. and so on. the same mutations are passed on all the way to the present. you and i both carry the mutations that occurred way back then.
that's what the whole tree is based on, which mutations are shared and which aren't.
What part I'm not getting? I tell you it was already present in the population with in that region.
Phylogenetic Mapping
Most of the mutations here analyzed belong to the African portion of the MSY phylogeny, which is comprised of haplogroups A1b, A1a, A2, A3 and B [16]. Through phylogenetic mapping it was possible to identify 15 new African haplogroups and to resolve one basal trifurcation (Figure 1). A new deep branch within the ‘‘out of Africa’’ haplogroup C was also identified (Figure S1).
Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines haplogroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].
These are the forefather who carried the mutation for R, before it left Africa.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Stop playing games Capra. It is difficult to distinguish between C and R depending on resolution. Thus CT is sometimes the best the result may show. This is seen with some of the Natufian results. Eg E??(xE1b1??). The results or the mutation is not resolved.
quote:Originally posted by capra: what part of this are you not getting?
the forefather of CT inherited most of his mutations from BT, those are shared with B. the forefather of BT inherited most of his mutations from A2-T, those are shared with A2 and A3. the forefather of A2-T inherited most of his mutations from A1a-T, those are shared with A1a. and so on. the same mutations are passed on all the way to the present. you and i both carry the mutations that occurred way back then.
that's what the whole tree is based on, which mutations are shared and which aren't.
The origin of a haplogroup is suggested by
1) location of oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup 2) subclade diversity of the haplogroup 3) frequency of the haplogroup
what do you get when you apply the above criteria to haplogroup CT ?
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posted
the mutations specific to R are the ones *not* shared with A, C, DE, etc.
what you are saying here is that if my great great grandparents were born in England, and i live in England, i must have been born in England too. even though my grandparents, parents, cousins, brothers and sisters all live in Canada.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.
why would they both have to originate on the same continent?
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
—Fulvio Cruciani, Beniamino Trombetta,Rosaria Scozzari et al.
Are you capable of answering the question or do you just post article titles?
You out of anybody here should not dare to demand an answer or for your questions. I (and many others) have asked you many questions over the many years, which you vividly dismissed and ignored (this is typical white supremacist behavior).
My response was more than sufficient.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by capra: the mutations specific to R are the ones *not* shared with A, C, DE, etc.
Okay.
C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).
It's a trembling anxious experience for whites to have this nigga ancestry.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
when Ish Gebor can't answer a question he posts an article title, hoping some sense of authority will leave a residue on the question
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