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Originally posted by beyoku:

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Egypt, located on the isthmus of Africa, is an ideal region to study historical population dynamics due to its geographic location and documented interactions with ancient civilizations in Africa, Asia, and Europe. Particularly, in the first millennium BCE Egypt endured foreign domination leading to growing numbers of foreigners living within its borders possibly contributing genetically to the local population. Here we mtDNA and nuclear DNA from mummified humans recovered from Middle Egypt that span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the Third Intermediate to the Roman Period. Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more Near Eastern ancestry than present-day Egyptians, who received additional Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

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Source

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Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Abstract


Lastly, concomitant PCR amplification of P. falciparum and M. tuberculosis complex DNA specific fragments was obtained in four mummies, three of which are 14 C dated to the Late and Graeco-Roman Periods. Our data confirm that the hydrography of Fayum was extremely conducive to the spread of malaria. They also support the notion that the agricultural boom and dense crowding occurred in this region, especially under the Ptolemies, highly increased the probability for the manifestation and spread of tuberculosis.




Due to the presence of the lake Quarun and to the particular nature of its irrigation system, it has been speculated that the Fayum, a large depression 80 kilometers south- west of modern Cairo, was exposed to the hazards of malaria in historic times. Similarly, it has been speculated that, in the same area, also human tuberculosis might have been far more widespread in the antiquity than in its recent past. If these hypotheses were confirmed, it would imply that frequent cases of co-infection between the two pathogens might have occurred in ancient populations.


To substantiate those speculations, molecular analyses were carried out on sixteen mummified heads recovered from the necropolis of Abusir el Meleq (Fayum) dating from the 3rd Intermediate Period (1064- 656 BC) to the Roman Period (30 BC- 300 AD).


Soft tissue biopsies were used for DNA extractions and PCR amplifications using well-suited protocols. A partial 196-bp fragment of Plasmodium falciparum apical membrane antigen 1 gene and a 123-bp fragment of the Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex insertion sequence IS6110 were amplified and sequenced in six and five of the sixteen specimens, respectively. A 100% concordance rates between our sequences and those of P. falciparum and M. tuberculosis complex ones were obtained. Lastly, concomitant PCR amplification of P. falciparum and M. tuberculosis complex DNA specific fragments was obtained in four mummies, three of which are 14 C dated to the Late and Graeco-Roman Periods. Our data confirm that the hydrography of Fayum was extremely conducive to the spread of malaria. They also support the notion that the agricultural boom and dense crowding occurred in this region, especially under the Ptolemies, highly increased the probability for the manifestation and spread of tuberculosis. Here we extend back-wards to ca. 800 BC new evidence for malaria tropica and human tuberculosis co-occurrence in ancient Lower Egypt.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Lets try this again and use this thread as a placeholder when the data is release.

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

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Egypt, located on the isthmus of Africa, is an ideal region to study historical population dynamics due to its geographic location and documented interactions with ancient civilizations in Africa, Asia, and Europe. Particularly, in the first millennium BCE Egypt endured foreign domination leading to growing numbers of foreigners living within its borders possibly contributing genetically to the local population. Here we mtDNA and nuclear DNA from mummified humans recovered from Middle Egypt that span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the Third Intermediate to the Roman Period. Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more Near Eastern ancestry than present-day Egyptians, who received additional Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

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Source

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Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
I didn't know Abusair was Fayum. Don't tell me they are testing the Fayum mummies. Lurkers, Google image Fayum portraits. White people aint about nothing.
\
At least they are honest about this being a Hyksos spot. Still sad. The first released genetic study on a population and they choose a white neighborhood. That is so janky.

I'm going to venture and say that these are going to be some white ass Egyptians, albino mutations and all.

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I think you are on to something. Looks pretty white to me.

Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by beyoku:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
I didn't know Abusair was Fayum. Don't tell me they are testing the Fayum mummies. Lurkers, Google image Fayum portraits. White people aint about nothing.
\
At least they are honest about this being a Hyksos spot. Still sad. The first released genetic study on a population and they choose a white neighborhood. That is so janky.

I'm going to venture and say that these are going to be some white ass Egyptians, albino mutations and all.

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I think you are on to something. Looks pretty white to me.

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Id hedge on art face over decay face. If you wanted ancient Egyptians with albino mutations where else do you go but to the Fayum mummies?

Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Cass/:
Gets boring with Afroloons trying to blame the genetic data that conflict with their politics on large scale foreign mixture, which if you notice they keep changing the dates for.

Later when DNA samples dating to the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, these Afoloons will say that also was time of mass foreign mixture, then for the First Intermediate Period of Egypt, and so on.

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It is obvious you have nothing valuable to contribute, all you have is nothing but euroloon babbles.



0411464


ARCHAEOLOGY. Relief with hieroglyphs at the entrance to the tomb of Amon Pen (Dynasty XIX), Abusir Necropolis, Egypt. Egyptian civilisation, New Kingdom, Dynasty XIX. Full credit: De Agostini / S. Vannini / Granger, NYC


https://www.granger.com/results.asp?search=1&screenwidth=1600&tnresize=200&pixperpage=40&searchtxtkeys=abusir&lastsearchtxtkeys=Abusir&lstorients=132


LOL @ Euronut logic.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Punos_Rey:


Anyways as I mentioned in the previous thread isn't Abusir actually in *Lower* Egypt? It's basically right at the neck of the Delta. Considering this and the imperial nature of the New Kingdom I still don't really find the abstract surprising but eh *shrugs*

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Abusir el Meleq was founded
in the Naqada II archaic period.
-- Baines & Màlek (1984) p.31.

Abusir
sits between the southern Fayum and
the Nile. Its in the 21st Nome of Upper
Egypt. The 1st Nome of Lower Egypt
borders it.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:

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Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
I didn't know Abusair was Fayum. Don't tell me they are testing the Fayum mummies. Lurkers, Google image Fayum portraits. White people aint about nothing.
\
At least they are honest about this being a Hyksos spot. Still sad. The first released genetic study on a population and they choose a white neighborhood. That is so janky.

I'm going to venture and say that these are going to be some white ass Egyptians, albino mutations and all.

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I think you are on to something. Looks pretty white to me.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8RhjMQVwAAKyZg.jpg:large

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Id hedge on art face over decay face. If you wanted ancient Egyptians with albino mutations where else do you go but to the Fayum mummies?

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“While commonly believed to represent Greek settlers in Egypt, the Faiyum portraits instead reflect the complex synthesis of the predominant Egyptian culture and that of the elite Greek minority in the city. According to Walker, the early Ptolemaic Greek colonists married local women and adopted Egyptian religious beliefs, and by Roman times, their descendants were viewed as Egyptians by the Roman rulers, despite their own self-perception of being Greek. The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be "much more closely akin" to that of ancient Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations. “

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"Still, it appears that the process of state formation involved a large indigenous component. Outside influence and admixture with extraregional groups primarily occurred in Lower Egypt—perhaps during the later dynastic, but especially in Ptolmaic and Roman times (also Irish, 2006). No large-scale population replacement in the form of a foreign dynastic ‘race’ (Petrie, 1939) was indicated. Our results are generally consistent with those of Zakrzewski (2007). Using craniometric data in predynastic and early dynastic Egyptian samples, she also concluded that state formation was largely an indigenous process with some migration into the region evident. The sources of such migrants have not been identified; inclusion of additional regional and extraregional skeletal samples from various periods would be required for this purpose."

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Tukuler:


@ Ish
I don't understand how a Greco-
Roman settlement could've been
founded ~3000 BCE and have at
least two mummies dating to 800
BCE when Greco-Roman Egypt isn't
until 332 BCE?

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Abusir el-Malek


The ancient settlement of Abusir el-Malek sat on a small rise in the fertile floodplain between the Faiyum and the Nile. By 1500 B.C., it was a prosperous settlement with many temples and a vast burial ground and buildings stretching across a large area. Excavations in the early twentieth century revealed burials centered on a cult honoring Osiris, the Egyptian god of the afterlife. The earliest evidence of occupation at the site dates from around 3000 B.C., with the majority of burials beginning 1,500 years later. The cemetery continued to be used for centuries, with the earlier shaft tombs being filled with later burials from the Greek, Roman, and Islamic periods. Thousands of individuals were buried at the site over hundreds of years of use.

Archaeological exploration of Abusir el-Malek in the early twentieth century resulted in many artifacts being placed in museums around the world, bringing attention to the importance of the site and its history. Site work continued in the 1970s, emphasizing again the valuable information being gained from documenting Abusir el-Malek. Following the Arab Spring in 2011, when policing archaeological sites became more difficult, there was a tremendous surge in looting of heritage sites in the region. Abusir el-Malek is one of the archaeological sites that has been particularly heavily looted. The continuing destruction of sites in search of saleable antiquities has resulted in the loss of scientific evidence, artifacts, and understanding of the stratigraphy of archaeological ruins at thousands of ancient sites like Abusir el-Malek. Sadly this situation is not unique in Egypt, or elsewhere in the world. Times of crisis—poverty, conflict, or political turmoil—stretch the protection of our past, often to breaking point.

Placing Abusir el-Malek on the 2016 World Monuments Watch cannot repair the damage to the site, but it can potentially raise awareness about looting and highlight efforts worldwide to stem the tide of illicit trafficking of archaeological objects. Developing alternative sources of income for local communities and incentives for protecting heritage sites, coupled with enforcement of local, national, and international cultural property laws, is a vital challenge.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I'm adopting a policy of ignoring Cass after that Mansa Musa fiasco, that really took the cake.

Anyways as I mentioned in the previous thread isn't Abusir actually in *Lower* Egypt? It's basically right at the neck of the Delta. Considering this and the imperial nature of the New Kingdom I still don't really find the abstract surprising but eh *shrugs*

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The corpus of material from Roman Egypt is one of the most fascinating in studying ancient Egypt’s funerary remains. However, with the exception of painted panel portraits on mummies of the period, much of this material has received little attention from academia and public alike.

The value of this publication, which condenses the author’s doctoral thesis, lies in its thorough analysis of often poorly-recorded material dispersed in museums throughout the world.

Riggs concentrates on the series of mummy cases, masks, shrouds, coffins and tomb paintings incorporating aspects of Greek and Roman art into traditional Egyptian burial forms. She analyses stylistic development in conjunction with other contemporary art forms, texts and funerary inscriptions in order to gain insight into the ethnicity, social status and religious beliefs of the populace.

Chapter One presents an overview of art and religion in Roman Egypt and an account of previous studies in the field. Riggs suggests that the amalgam of styles and motifs, formerly categorised as of mixed style and even considered degenerate by many, is due to a deliberate choice rather than any misunderstanding of Egyptian funerary art forms. She proposes that the use of more naturalistic portraiture and the depiction of contemporary clothing and hairstyles indicates a desire to perpetuate status and gender in the afterlife.

Chapter Two examines the concept of gender in funerary art and texts and relates the evidence from the Rhind Papyri, in which the deceased are associated with the funerary deities Osiris and Hathor, to groups of coffins from Kharga Oasis and Akhmim. These, too, portray the image of the deceased either idealised in Osiride form or naturalistically in contemporary dress, according to Hellenistic conventions. Despite the Hellenised mode of dress, the names of the deceased are Egyptian and derived from those of local divinities. Riggs therefore suggests that the purpose of the contemporary knotted garment worn by females of the Akhmim Group is to ‘tie’ the image to Hathor, and that the dual styles emphasise the importance of perpetuating social status in death, as well as gender.

Chapter Three investigates this concept further in narrative scenes on a series of masks from Meir and in Funerary House 21 in the cemetery of Tuna el-Gebel, in which the deceased is similarly attired. Riggs equates the narrative to stages in the deceased’s journey through death to transfiguration.

Her analysis of the accompanying inscriptions reveals a predominance of now Greek versions of Egyptian names, implying a bilingual society. The question of cultural identity is further investigated in relation to images of the deceased in the style of orator-type portraits on the lids of wooden coffins from Abusir el-Meleq, and on the ‘Psychopomp’ shrouds from Saqqara. Riggs compares the image to contemporary commemorative sculpture and suggests that the intention may be to represent the deceased as a cult image. The Psychopomp shrouds portray the deceased within a portal, which Riggs interprets as representing the threshold between life and transfiguration.

She develops this theory in a discussion of images on tombs of the period at Akhmim and in the Dakhla Oasis where the orator-style image of the deceased alludes both to his cult status and his transition to the afterlife.

Chapter Four is dedicated to the funerary material from the Theban area, which retained its importance as a religious centre into the Roman Period. Although more conservative than art forms from other areas, the material does incorporate some new features. The traditional image of the goddess Nut is present on coffins of the Soter Group, but she is now clothed in contemporary costume and jewellery, and naturalistic portraiture is combined with traditional native imagery on mummy masks from Deir el- Bahri. Riggs’ detailed study of accompanying inscriptions and texts reveals that the deceased were members of local élites, were probably bilingual and devotees of local cults.

She concludes that in the Roman Period the concept of maintaining one’s status and gender into the afterlife became as important as the preservation of the corpse and transfiguration of the deceased. Far from being ‘degenerate’, the material manifests that patrons exercised choice as to how they wished to be depicted in death, being able to draw upon the characteristics of three artistic traditions.

The text is supplemented by numerous photographs, drawings and plates, together with an invaluable Appendix and Register of Museums. This study succeeds in placing the material in its rightful place as a fine example of what happens when three great artistic traditions meet and interact.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Oshun:
but aren't those dates before the Greco-Roman period?

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Oshun:
Didn't many of the samples predate Greek/Roman occupation? The dates however don't predate Canaan and Hyksos entry, and by about 1k BC there was Eastern genetic influences that extended all the way into Ethiopia.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

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While commonly believed to represent Greek settlers in Egypt, the Faiyum portraits instead reflect the complex synthesis of the predominant Egyptian culture and that of the elite Greek minority in the city. According to Walker, the early Ptolemaic Greek colonists married local women and adopted Egyptian religious beliefs, and by Roman times, their descendants were viewed as Egyptians by the Roman rulers, despite their own self-perception of being Greek. The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be "much more closely akin" to that of ancient Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations.

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Not surprisingly, samples noted to exhibit
relatively high or low frequencies are most divergent.
Gebel Ramlah and the Greek Egyptians have identical
mean MMD values of 0.126.

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Lastly, the Roman-period specimens are much more
closely akin to the seven dynastic samples. Kharga and
especially Hawara are most similar, based on their trait
concordance (Table 2), low and insignificant MMDs (Table
4), and positions within or near the cluster of 11 or so sam-
ples (Fig. 2).

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The Niger-Congo speakers (Congo, Dahomey, and Haya) cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample (both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians) and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from Sub-Saharan Africa.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Sudaniya

Noted. Just out of curiosity, though, how do you interpret the position of the dynastic Upper Egyptian samples on this dendrogram away from the predynastic samples and even the modern Elephantine sample (which clusters loosely with the Ugandan and Tanzanian samples). Note that the dynastic Upper Egyptian samples are from some of the areas you asked about, but they mostly cluster with dynastic samples from the north (both ancient and modern). If you don't have an explanation and want to wait in regards to this as well, let me know.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb178/beyoku/7.png
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb178/beyoku/6.png

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

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While commonly believed to represent Greek settlers in Egypt, the Faiyum portraits instead reflect the complex synthesis of the predominant Egyptian culture and that of the elite Greek minority in the city. According to Walker, the early Ptolemaic Greek colonists married local women and adopted Egyptian religious beliefs, and by Roman times, their descendants were viewed as Egyptians by the Roman rulers, despite their own self-perception of being Greek. The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be "much more closely akin" to that of ancient Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations.

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Game over.

quote:

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Not surprisingly, samples noted to exhibit
relatively high or low frequencies are most divergent.
Gebel Ramlah and the Greek Egyptians have identical
mean MMD values of 0.126.

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Game over. (Substantial SSA component in Gebel Ramlah population doesn't help it score better [on average] than the 'Greek immigrant' sample. As with the recently sampled Natufian sample, samples with more SSA ancestry than a certain amount don't score better [e.g. Bedouin B with more SSA ancestry isn't closer to these Natufians than Bedouin A]).

quote:

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Lastly, the Roman-period specimens are much more
closely akin to the seven dynastic samples. Kharga and
especially Hawara are most similar, based on their trait
concordance (Table 2), low and insignificant MMDs (Table
4), and positions within or near the cluster of 11 or so sam-
ples (Fig. 2).

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Game over.

In short, AE changed over time to an EEF-like population. This is not specific to the Abusir sample, but part of a wider gradual phenomenon all over dynastic Egypt. Trying to blame this squarely on immigrants fails also, because predynastic Egyptians were already fundamentally akin to such EEF-like populations, albeit much more shifted towards Africans. This was already known since 2005 and even before that, but people just want to play dumb and have selective memory:

quote:

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The Niger-Congo speakers (Congo, Dahomey, and Haya) cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample (both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians) and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from Sub-Saharan Africa.

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—Brace et al 2005

This Abusir population has lost (most of) this predynastic Egyptian African ancestry and wasn't any more African than EEF-like samples are. Whatever you want to argue the main affinity of this lost African ancestry was, it wasn't anything like DNA Tribes Great Lakes or South African region.

Game over.

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On first study the mummy portraits of the Roman period give us a series of likenesses that appear to be carefully worked representations of particular people, but closer analysis has shown that the 'individual' traits are generally simply the quirks of a workshop or painter, emphasised by the repetitive and formulaic use of proportion but often concealed by fashions in hairstyles and beards. What is lacking is the detailed observation of the underlying proportions of the individual skull which gives each face its own personality.

However, a few portraits stand out by their sheer quality: the acid test of their fidelity would be a reconstruction based on the skull, a test which was carried out in Manchester on two portraits from Hawara now in the British Museum (EA 74713, EA 74718) in the wake of the "Ancient Faces" exhibition. The one proved to be a reasonable likeness as far as detail is concerned but failed in representing the overall proportions of the face, showing that the painter had merely adapted a standard workshop type; the other, although superficially also a standard type, comes much nearer the truth because the artist has rendered the proportions of his subject's face correctly.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Swenet:
When you get behind a PC, you'll see that all of Kemp's dendrograms show a distinction between most Nubian samples and predynastic Egyptians on the one hand, and between most dynastic Egyptians on the other hand. This doesn't mean that there was a huge change everywhere at the same time. In PCA we would probably see a smoother transition with dynastic Upper Egyptians generally in between predynastic Egyptians and dynastic Lower Egyptians. However, it's obvious that dynastic Egyptian samples that are assigned to branches with Levantines (Lachish) and northern Egyptians (E Series, Sedment), rather than with predynastic Egyptians, share an admixture event(s).

You're correct that Lower Nubians also changed. Some of the Lower Nubians cluster with dynastic Egyptians. If that result has been replicated elsewhere, I would interpret that the same way (i.e. as involving that admixture event or something similar).

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Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Sudaniya

What is the skin color and general look of Copts from Sudan (if there is such a thing)? Years ago someone posted a movie featuring Copts from Sudan and the actors looked like this:

https://traveltoeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Photo-20151212110137712.jpg

If that's accurate it shows that affinity to EEF samples doesn't have to mean a complete break in continuity. The Sudanese Copt sample clusters with early farmer groups but the individuals presumably still look like the individual in the pic above. I think the same applies to the Abusir sample. See the picture Beyoku posted.

It is therefore no surprise that living Upper Egyptians can look even more in the direction of northern Sudanese.

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I did meet a Sudanese Copt many many years ago. He looked much like Mostafa Hefny.





The complexion is basically the same, or at least close.

Most people in Upper Egypt go from this color complexion to darker than that. And occasionally you'll see people lighter complexioned (yellowish).

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
I can't remember who posted it, but I remember citations asserting that dynastic Egyptians were a continuum of the Badarian and Naqadan predynastic cultures. I really do want full spectrum DNA analysis of samples from early dynastic Southern Egypt to settle this. I just can't fathom how anthropologists, archaeologists and historians have never found evidence of mass migration into the Nile valley by "Eurasians" if this is to be believed.

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"Still, it appears that the process of state formation involved a large indigenous component. Outside influence and admixture with extraregional groups primarily occurred in Lower Egypt—perhaps during the later dynastic, but especially in Ptolmaic and Roman times (also Irish, 2006). No large-scale population replacement in the form of a foreign dynastic ‘race’ (Petrie, 1939) was indicated. Our results are generally consistent with those of Zakrzewski (2007). Using craniometric data in predynastic and early dynastic Egyptian samples, she also concluded that state formation was largely an indigenous process with some migration into the region evident. The sources of such migrants have not been identified; inclusion of additional regional and extraregional skeletal samples from various periods would be required for this purpose."

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These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.

This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley.

This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK.

A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment."

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
I can't remember who posted it, but I remember citations asserting that dynastic Egyptians were a continuum of the Badarian and Naqadan predynastic cultures. I really do want full spectrum DNA analysis of samples from early dynastic Southern Egypt to settle this. I just can't fathom how anthropologists, archaeologists and historians have never found evidence of mass migration into the Nile valley by "Eurasians" if this is to be believed. We are essentially entertaining the possibility of a gradual but substantial population replacement scenario. This would have engendered widespread conflict -and I assume- would have ample archaeological evidence on its side.

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It has been determined that an average migration rate of one percent per generation into a region could result in a great change of the original gene frequencies in only several thousand years. (This assumes that all migrants marry natives and that all native-migrant offspring remain in the region.) It is obvious then that an ethnic group or nationality can change in average gene frequencies or physiognomy by intermarriage, unless social rules exclude the products of "mixed" unions from membership in the receiving group. More abstractly this means that geographically defined populations can undergo significant genetic change with a small percentage of steady assimilation of "foreign" genes. This is true even if natural selection does not favor the genes (and does not eliminate them).

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Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Orginally posted by Swenet:
This doesn't mean that there was a huge change everywhere at the same time. In PCA we would probably see a smoother transition with dynastic Upper Egyptians generally in between predynastic Egyptians and dynastic Lower Egyptians.

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Something like this:



http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1370585/1/HADDOW_PHD_THESIS.pdf

Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Ish Gebor
I should have been more clear, but if you notice, I was addressing the source you posted. It wasn't directed at you, just at people who try to pretend like you can sample Upper Egyptian samples and get fest of South African and Great Lakes aDNA. Maybe you can find that in some immigrant sample, but as far as ethnic Egyptians, that is completely ruled out by the source you posted and all the other data. One can either say they're more African versions of the recently sampled Natufians and ENF groups, who are partly African themselves, or (playing devil's advocate) one can try to argue that they're tropically adapted, dark skinned Eurasian immigrants a la Raxter and Irish. The latter camp are delusional also, but not more delusional than the DNA Tribes camp. At least they can cite data with a faint semblance to what they're saying. Keita's work doesn't even support the DNA Tribes camp. So who credible represents them in academia? No one. They are going out on a limb and selectively posting pictures of ancient statues, not actual physical anthropologists or geneticists who agree with them.

Whoever adheres to a literal interpretation of DNA Tribes, it's game over for them. They are just suspending disbelief at this point.

@Sudaniya

Noted.

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Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
^ In the meanwhile I hope for Tukuler to update us on this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Oshun:
but aren't those dates before the Greco-Roman period?

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These are radiocarbon dates. These have a margin off.
centuries BC[/i]

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
@Ish Gebor
I should have been more clear, but if you notice, I was addressing the source you posted. It wasn't directed at you, just at people who try to pretend like you can sample Upper Egyptian samples and get fest of South African and Great Lakes aDNA. Maybe you can find that in some immigrant sample, but as far as ethnic Egyptians, that is completely ruled out by the source you posted and all the other data. One can either say they're more African versions of the recently sampled Natufians and ENF groups, who are partly African themselves, or (playing devil's advocate) one can try to argue that they're tropically adapted, dark skinned Eurasian immigrants a la Raxter and Irish. The latter camp are delusional also, but not more delusional than the DNA Tribes camp. At least they can cite data with a faint semblance to what they're saying. Keita's work doesn't even support the DNA Tribes camp. So who credible represents them in academia? No one. They are going out on a limb and selectively posting pictures of ancient statues, not actual physical anthropologists or geneticists who agree with them.

Whoever adheres to a literal interpretation of DNA Tribes, it's game over for them. They are just suspending disbelief at this point.

@Sudaniya

Noted.

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Ramses III


Ramses III



Pentaweret

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The same study determined that the mummy of an unknown man buried with him was a good candidate for Ramesses's son Pentaweret although it could not determine his cause of death. Both mummies shared Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a and 50% of their genetic material, which Zink stated "is typical of a father-son relationship."

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Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged |