posted                         

quote:

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In using the term 'originating' I mean at some point
in past time their ancestors were from the listed
places though inhabiting far north Egypt and thus
being pre-unification "Lower Egyptians" (which is
really an anachronism since there was no polity
or state Lower Egypt before the unification).

I later explicitly tied the enemies' likenesses to an
"old country" source while not denying any of them
as being "pre-unification Lower Egyptians" which they
apparently all were.




"Ta Mehhu man" and Trampled-by-Bull
?Primarly eastern delta inhabitants/Egyptians of possible Sinai and/or Levant antecedents?




Smitten One and Serpopard Handlers.
?Far northern (Fayum to delta) and mid to south Egyptians descendents of neolithic
Nile dwellers with drying western desert refugees and northbound Sudani settlers?
[zoom out to get all three in line.]





Sprawled or Fleeing Ones
?Primarily western delta Egyptians of west of delta and western desert ancestry?

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
@BBH

What do you mean with "Natufian-like"? I think modern Egyptians will always have more of a special affinity with Natufians than living Eurasians because backmigration to Egypt can't really erase the ancient Egyptian ancestry that contributed genes to Natufians. It lessens with more backmigration, sure, but it's still there. This applies even more to the Coptic sample from Sudan, since it seems to lack some recent non-native influences (African and non-African) that living Egyptians have. This is why I thought the Egyptian Coptic immigrant sample from Sudan was important in terms of having more continuity to ancient Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Egyptians (and possibly also other North Africans) are the only populations that are still relatively close to Natufians despite their recent increase of SSA ancestry. Living Middle Easterners can't get away with that without becoming more distant to proto and early ENF groups from the Levant. Yemenis, for instance, also have substantial SSA ancestry, but they aren't closer to Natufians than living Egyptians are. So that right there tells you that something in living Egyptians has a special affinity with Natufians, though some Egyptian samples have it more than others.

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Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by sudaniya:
Doug

The earliest of these results are from 1300 years before Christ, so they are actually significant, so let's not pretend that this isn't substantial.

We still need the paternal profile of these Abusir mummies to determine just who they were -- ethnic Egyptians, foreigners or naturalized citizens.

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Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

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Particularly, in the first millennium BCE Egypt endured foreign domination leading to growing numbers of foreigners living within its borders possibly contributing genetically to the local population. Here we mtDNA and nuclear DNA from mummified humans recovered from Middle Egypt that span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the Third Intermediate to the Roman Period

---

The leaked slide labeled 'SCREENING
gives a New Kingdom lower boundary contemporary with Amenophis III & IV,
Smenkhkare, Tutankhamen, Aya, and
Horemheb.

Since they use calBC, I assume they
ground up some skull unless it was
linen wrap or something.

So instead of spanning 1300 years as
per abstract, 1700 years are covered
according to SCREENING.

This is all conference presentation.
Will have to wait on the paper and
if we're lucky we'll get a biorivix or
open access release.

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
I posted the data and folks bascially seem to be running from it Like This

---

Egyptsearch's whole game is cat and mouse:

1) Something like this gets posted (source: Keita 1992):



2) The majority pretends to not see it or understand the implications.

3) When the thread is no longer in sight, all of you sudden you see these bs threads pop up by the same people who were silent during the aforementioned rare moments of truth.

4) Repeat and rinse.

5) Be absolutely convinced that this site is a beacon of truth and that people from other message boards fear/respect Egyptsearch.

This repeat and rinse has gone on for so many years that you get these threads:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009423;p=1#000000

No disrespect to SonofRa but this is just a perfect example of the games that get played here. Compare Keita's classification results up top with the classification results listed in that thread. Is it really that different as far as the majority of crania that won't classify with many SSA groups? As a matter of fact, which craniofacial study on the face of the earth has ever said anything different? No actual craniofacial study. So what is the reference point people here have for being surprised about this? It's not even like they can point to a classification study that says different.

And you want to know what happens when certain variables are used? The classification results get even worse:

quote:

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The indications of exclusion, however, are much easier to interpret. For example,
the likelihood that either the Giza or Naqada configuration could occur in West
Africa, the Congo, or points south is vanishingly small-0.000 and 0.001.

---

—Brace et al 1993

But we've never seen that quote before, either, right? But don't worry, just sweep it under the rug and repeat and rinse. Create a thread a month later talking about Niger-Congo Egyptians. [/QB]

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
@BBH

What do you mean with "Natufian-like"? I think modern Egyptians will always have more of a special affinity with Natufians than living Eurasians because backmigration to Egypt can't really erase the ancient Egyptian ancestry that contributed genes to Natufians. It lessens with more backmigration, sure, but it's still there. This applies even more to the Coptic sample from Sudan, since it seems to lack some recent non-native influences (African and non-African) that living Egyptians have. This is why I thought the Egyptian Coptic immigrant sample from Sudan was important in terms of having more continuity to ancient Egyptians.

---

What I meant with "Natufian-like" is that the study I quoted had a Near Eastern component. My guess was that component was just a proxy for Natufian-like ancestry that migrated from Egypt to the Near East. I was assuming the study labeled Natufian ancestry in Egyptian as "Near Eastern. But you basically cleared up my confusion.

And you're right that back migration does not typically erase the native(or ancient) genes. This is especially true for U6 and the Maghreb.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

Egyptians (and possibly also other North Africans) are the only populations that are still relatively close to Natufians despite their recent increase of SSA ancestry. Living Middle Easterners can't get away with that without becoming more distant to proto and early ENF groups from the Levant. Yemenis, for instance, also have substantial SSA ancestry, but they aren't closer to Natufians than living Egyptians are. So that right there tells you that something in living Egyptians has a special affinity with Natufians, though some Egyptian samples have it more than others.

---

Not too sure using Yemenis as an example. Since they are not a Levantine population like Natufians and Egyptians(Lower Egyptians) and MAY be distant. Wouldn't Near Easterner populations like Jordians or Syrians be a better example. From what I've seen they not only have SOME SSA ancestry, but they are Levantine population like the Natufians were.

And I would like to in the future what specific Egyptian populations are closer to the Natufians and who's not.

---

I see your point re: Yemenis. But if you look at the Fst data, that's not necessarily the case. A few weeks ago, I posted this (source is Lazaridis et al 2016):



Notice how close the Saudi sample is to the recently sampled Natufians. Out of living Eurasians, it has the best Fst distance, along with Bedouin A and the Jewish sample from Yemen. Levantine ancestry is not the common denominator here. Clearly, closeness to Natufians in Eurasia is mostly a function of North African ancestry + a limited amount SSA ancestry. That is why Druze and Bedouin B, though both Levantines, are removed from Natufians, and why Canary Islanders (who are not Levantines) are surprisingly close to Natufians.

Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari- :
I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..

---

Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

In using the term 'originating' I mean at some point
in past time their ancestors were from the listed
places though inhabiting far north Egypt and thus
being pre-unification "Lower Egyptians" (which is
really an anachronism since there was no polity
or state Lower Egypt before the unification).

I later explicitly tied the enemies' likenesses to an
"old country" source while not denying any of them
as being "pre-unification Lower Egyptians" which they
apparently all were.




"Ta Mehhu man" and Trampled-by-Bull
?Primarly eastern delta inhabitants/Egyptians of possible Sinai and/or Levant antecedents?




Smitten One and Serpopard Handlers.
?Far northern (Fayum to delta) and mid to south Egyptians descendents of neolithic
Nile dwellers with drying western desert refugees and northbound Sudani settlers?
[zoom out to get all three in line.]





Sprawled or Fleeing Ones
?Primarily western delta Egyptians of west of delta and western desert ancestry?

---

---

quote:

---

”Many of the sites reveal evidence of important interactions between Nilotic and Saharan groups during the formative phases of the Egyptian Predynastic Period (e.g. Wadi el-Hôl, Rayayna, Nuq’ Menih, Kurkur Oasis). Other sites preserve important information regarding the use of the desert routes during the Protodynastic and Pharaonic Periods, particularly during periods of political and military turmoil in the Nile Valley (e.g. Gebel Tjauti, Wadi el-Hôl)."

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quote:

---

There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.

In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas

[…]

Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data.

In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation.
This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography”

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..]

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Niger Kongo came from Greenberg.

Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I see your point re: Yemenis. But if you look at the Fst data, that's not necessarily the case. A few weeks ago, I posted this (source is Lazaridis et al 2016):



Notice how close the Saudi sample is to the recently sampled Natufians. Out of living Eurasians, it has the best Fst distance, along with Bedouin A and the Jewish sample from Yemen. Levantine ancestry is not the common denominator here. Clearly, closeness to Natufians in Eurasia is mostly a function of North African ancestry + a limited amount SSA ancestry. That is why Druze and Bedouin B, though both Levantines, are removed from Natufians, and why Canary Islanders (who are not Levantines) are surprisingly close to Natufians.

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Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..]

---

Niger Kongo came from Greenberg.

---

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Okay! This response is long overdue. I didn't have the time to respond several years ago when Takruri first created this thread. And when I did, I didn't have all the data.

My initial point wasn't that the Delta folk were Tjehenu per-say but that they do share the same Libyan origins as them rather than the Asiatic origins postulated by early Western scholars. My contention is based on three grounds of evidence: bio-anthropology, archaeology (culture), and history.

The bio-anthropological data of course is something everyone in here should be familiar with by now.

Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.--Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation

It's clear that early Delta people were NOT of Asiatic origin but very much African biologically.

Here's what archaeology shows of their cultural origins.

Neolithic Period to Egypt's Dynasty 1
by Bruce B. Williams, Research Associate
Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago

Cultures of Northern Egypt

From the western delta to south of the Fayum, the cultures of northern Egypt occur largely in single sites or restricted areas, rather than extensive horizons. The emergence of distinct cultural traditions in northern Egypt has often been connected to the later canonical division between Upper and Lower Egypt, although these early cultures were actually located in large part south of the Delta in areas assigned to Upper Egypt. In order of appearance, the site phases are Merimda (early and main) at the western edge of the delta; Fayum A; sites near the northern shore of Lake Oarun el-Omani and Maadi just south of modern Cairo; and possibly Buto, in the northwest delta.

1. Domestic Economies. The domestic economies of northern Egypt were substantially supported by agriculture which concentrated on the cultivation of cereals. Animals such as sheep, goats, cattle, and dogs were kept; fish and a wide range of animals were taken. Even hippopotamus bones occur in the settlements (Hayes 1965: 93, 112). Hunting this dangerous animal requires the coordinated tactics of bands or crews (but see Eiwanger 1988; 44).

2. Structures and Settlements. Like earlier playa settlements, most habitations were light, irregular or oval structures made of posts and reeds, sometimes plastered with mud. Many had hearths and circular storage pits nearby, some of which were lined with baskets or mud. At Maadi, some light structures were rectangular. The settlements had no regular plan, but part of a ditch and palisade were found at Maadi, in addition to large communal storage areas. Merimda contained a number of oval structures about two meters long, built of mud or mud slabs with floors below ground level. Sometimes a small jar would be imbedded in the floor near one end of the oval, and a stick or hippopotamus tibia would be plastered against the wall near the opposite end (Hayes 1965: 105). The buildings, some arranged as though on a lane (Hayes 1965: 105), were built only in restricted areas, probably for a special purpose (Eiwanger 1982: 68). They may be related to structures at Maadi that were sunk into the ground over two meters and approached by steps. One very large (10 x 6 x 2 m) and elaborate brick-lined sunken structure had a special entry and a niche. It was found with a cemetery and large deposits of fish and pottery vessels, many containing grain. These structures at Merimda and Maadi, especially the large building, may represent a tradition of religious architecture (Anonymous 1986).

3. Religious Practice. Other evidence of religious practice includes burials, deposits, and possibly structural features. Early Merimda contained a small cemetery of contracted burials, mostly placed with the heads south, on the right side. Later, burials in the Merimda levels were oriented irregularly (Eiwanger 1982; Hayes 1965: 112-13). In the el-Omari and Maadi phases, burials were made in cemeteries, some of them very large. Grave goods were deposited with later burials, and some later graves have simple dolmen-like superstructures. Even some goats were buried at Heliopolis with grave goods (Debono and Mortenson 1988: 39, 46-48). Female figurines and an eggshaped terra-cotta head from Merimda are not readily connected to known traditions, but a deposit with axes and a hippopotamus figurine (Eiwanger 1982: 76-80; 1988; 46) and the hippopotamus tibia used as steps may be forerunners of Egyptian magical practices.

4. Manufactured Goods. The handmade pottery of earliest Merimda was relatively fine, but apart from some stands, the mostly ovoid shapes were simpler than later pottery. Many vessels were pattern burnished with a pebble. Some vessels have a band of incised herringbone decoration, a feature that occurs both in Palestine and elsewhere in northern Africa (Eiwanger 1984: 61). The pottery of later Merimda was coarser, with vegetable temper. Shapes remained simple, but knobs and lugs were sometimes applied (Hayes 1965: 106-107; Eiwanger 1979: 28-38, 56; 1988: 15-33, pls, 1-32). Most vessels were burnished, with a dark surface color. This simple pottery continued at Maadi. Only a few pieces were decorated in red paint on a light ground, and the finer red and black burnished vessels were accompanied by much coarse dark pottery, and some very large storage jars (Ibrahim and Seeher 1987: pls. 2,2 and 28,2). In other industries, the stone vessels of Maadi were more elaborate than those found at Merinda (Hayes 1965:126). Copper was also worked at Maadi from imported ores.

5. Trade. Trade and contacts expanded greatly between the time of Merimda and Maadi, but imports from the East primarily consisted of raw materials such as copper ore and asphalt, or oils; most objects were made locally or regionally, although wavy-handled jars were imported from southwest Asia and some vessels and other objects were imported or imitated from Upper Egypt (Kaiser 1985: 70; Ibrahim and Seeher 1984; vorr der Way 1987; 242-247, 256-257).

6. End of Northern Egypt. Maadi ended early in the second phase (II) of Upper Egypt's Naqada culture; Kaiser 1985: fig.10). The settlement seems to have been finally destroyed by fire (Hayes 1965: 123). Maadi was the last of Lower Egypt's cultures in the area, although Buto in the Delta where a settlement with a cemetery has recently been found may continue (von der Way 1986; 1987: 242-247, including Naqada II pottery; Kaiser 1985: fig.10).

7. Summary. In northern Egypt, a large number of small, shifting villages probably sustained a few more permanent large settlements (Eiwanger 1987: fig.9). Consolidated in the area of Helwan and Maadi, these centers transcended the shifting earlier habitations without eliminating cultural variations (Kaiser 1985: 67), a contrast with the more uniform Naqada culture of Upper Egypt.

The archaeological data is also clear. The early Delta culture was that of an African people who domesticated Asiatic crops like wheat and barley as well as Asiatic livestock like pigs and sheep along with their native African cattle. They also maintained economic trade relations with Asia but the rest of their culture was African. Even the names of their Asian domesticates which are later recorded in dynastic times are native and not derived from Asia or any Semitic language. While the earliest graves had no goods (likely because they were interred in the homes of the living), later graves showed items like carved wands of hippo bones. The pottery was similar to those found in mesolithic Sahara as well as the Levant (Natufians). Also, the various settlements were not as uniform as those in the Valley, again indicating that Upper Egypt was unified by a centralized polity or administration unlike the Delta.

Most importantly, the earliest known permanent settlements in Lower Egypt were made in the southwest with the first one being in the Fayum!

If the Delta was settled by Asiatics then why are there no early settlements in the eastern parts of the Delta? In fact, among the traditional 20 sepati (nomes) of Lower Egypt, the first great 7 sepati occur in the western part of the delta beginning in the south. The sepati of the eastern areas were established later on.


(For more on Egyptian sepati look here)

The 1st sepat of Lower Egypt, Mennefer (Memphis) was the Egyptian capital first established by Narmer after his alleged conquest of the Delta, yet the predynastic culture of that sepat as well as the last two sepati of Upper Egypt (the 21st and 22nd) all show strong cultural connections to the neolithic Fayum A culture which in turn descends from the Sahara.

Here are a couple more sources confirming Saharan origins.

"The initial movements westwards across the Sahara and, almost a millennium later, are likely to have been caused by the succession of drought episodes at 7600, 6800-6500, 6100, 5800, and 5500-5400 cal BC (8.6, 7.9-7.7, 7.26, 7, 6.6-6.5 kyr bp)…"-- Fekri Hassan, Droughts, Food, and Culture: Ecological Change and Food Security in Africa’s Prehistory

"..the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." Shaw, Thurston (1976) Changes in African Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in African Studies since 1945

Even archaeologist Barbara Barich in her work Archaeology and Environment in the Libyan Sahara commented on similarities between Capsian culture farther west in Libya and the neolithic cultures of Egyptian oases like the Fayum such as oval shaped reed huts, the hearths and storage pits, and even the bodies interred in the homes. Fekri Hassan cites other material evidence like ground axes, tabular flint tools, lens-shaped bifacial arrowheads, concave-based arrowheads, ostrich shells, amazonite beads, and bone points.

More more info on the archaeology you can read The Archaeology of the Faiyum and Western Delta.

In regards to history, most of the historical texts come from foreign neighbors of the Egyptians who stressed their relationship with Libya. Though Egyptian texts give hints to western origins.

The Bible for example states that Phut (Libya) is brother of Mizraim (Egypt)-- both sons of Ham, and even some of Mizraim's sons were non other than the names of Libyan tribes like the Ludim, Anamim, and Lehabim (Lubu, Anami, Lehabu).

Greek texts are more extensive in showing the relationship. Plato records that Egypt and Libya were long standing allies against Atlantis. The Argive Cycle states Aegyptus (the founder and king of Egypt) and Danaus (the founder and king of Libya) were brothers even twins who were both the sons of the goddess Libya (Africa proper). Greek legends say that Libya was once ruled by Amazons the most prominent of which was a queen named Myrina. The name may be a Greek corruption of the name Merinit (Merineith) which was a popular name in Lower Egypt and was in fact the name of the Delta princess who became Narmer's queen after his conquest of the Delta.

Egyptian texts associate the western desert with the land of the dead or of the ancestors, which may not have been as popular as the south since the west was largely a wasteland. Many of the monuments of the dead royals were traditionally built in the western side of the Nile towards the west. The west was often associated with the goddess Amentet who presided over the western lands and the dead. The goddess Nit was also associated with the west and may be connected with the Berber goddess of Carthage Tanit who was also associated with weaving, war, and fertility just like Nit. Even in the homes of some Berber groups today they use a cross-arrows and shield symbol similar to Nit as well as an ankh like symbol of Tanit.

Emblem of Nit

Symbol of Tanit


Again, all this proves that the Delta peoples were of Libyan descent, but that does not mean they were actually Tjehenu. As to whether they were Romitu, perhaps they were, but they were obviously a different type of Romitu than those further south in the Valley. For example in the Tale of Sinuhe, Sinuhe himself who is a Delta man says when he traveled to Upper Egypt he thought he was in an entirely different country since the customs and looks of the people were different and he could barely understand their speech! Perhaps 'barely' is the key word here. That the Delta and Valley folk spoke dialects of the same language is the likely guess many Egyptologists make.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..]

---

Niger Kongo came from Greenberg.

---

.



.

There is nothing wrong with the term Niger Congo. This term just acknowledges that people from the Niger to the Congo speak a series of related languages.

What the problem with acknowledging this reality?

The fact remains that the Egyptian language is genetically related to Niger-Congo languages. This points to a family relationship between the speakers of these languages.



The Linguistic Methods of Chiekh Anta Diop

By
Clyde Winters


Chiekh Anta Diop has contributed much to the Afrocentric social sciences. Here we discuss many of Diop's views on using the linguistic sciences to rediscover the ancient history of Blacks.



Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitè culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).


Language is the sanctum sanctorum of Diop's Afrocentric historical method. The Diopian view of historiography combines the research of linguistics, history and psychology to interpret the cultural unity of African people.


C. Anta Diop is the founder of modern Afrocentricism . Diop (1974,1991) laid the foundations for the Afrocentric idea in education. He laid these foundations using both the historical and anthropological/linguistic methods of research to explain the role of the Blacks in World History.



There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common Physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages. (Winters 1989a) Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization. (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991)


The opposition of many Eurocentric scholars to Afrocentric -ism results from white hostility to Diop's idea of a Black Egypt, and the view that Egyptians spoke an African ,rather than Afro-Asiatic language.

Recently, Eurocentric American scholars have alleged to write reviews of Diop's recent book (Diop 1991). Although these reviewers mention the work of Diop in their articles, they never review his work properly, because they lack the ability to understand the many disciplines that Diop has mastered.(Lefkowitz 1992; Baines 1991)

For example Lefkowitz (1992) in The New Republic, summarizes

Diop (1974) but never presents any evidence to dispute the findings of Diop. The most popular "review" of Diop (1991) was done by Baines (1991) review in the New York Times Book Review. In this "review" Baines (1991) claims that "...the evidence and reasoning used to support the arguments are often unsound".

Instead of addressing the evidence Diop (1991) presents of the African role in the rise of civilization that he alleges is "unsound", he is asking the reader to reject Diop's thesis without refutation of specific evidence presented by Diop of the

African contributions to Science and Philosophy. Baines (l991)

claims that Diop's Civilization or Barbarism, is not a work of originality, he fails to dispute any factual evidence presented by Diop.

Baines (1991) wants the public to accept his general negative comments about Civilization or Barbarism ,based on the fact that he is an Egyptologist. This is not enough, in academia

to refute a thesis one must present counter evidence that proves the falseness of a thesis not unsubstantiated rhetoric. We can not accept the negative views of Baines on faith alone.

In the recovery of information concerning the African past, Diop promotes semantic anthropology, comparative linguistics and the study of Onomastics. The main thesis of Diop is that typonymy and ethnonymy of Africa point to a common cradle for Paleo-Africans in the Nile Valley (Diop 1978, 67).

Onomastics is the science of names. Diop has studied legends, placenames and religious cult terms to discover the unity of African civilization. Diop (1981, 86) observed that:

"An undisputed linguistic relationship between two geographically remote groups of languages can be relevant for the study of migrations. A grammatical (or genetic) relationship if clear enough is never an accident".

As a result, Diop has used toponyms (place-names), anthroponyms (personal names) and ehthnonyms (names of ethnic groups/tribes) to explain the evidence of analogous ethnic (clan) names in West Africa and the Upper Nile (Diop 1991).

In Precolonial Black Africa, Diop used ethnonyms to chart the migrations of African people in West Africa. And in The African Origin of Civilization, Diop used analyses acculturaliste or typological analysis to study the origin and spread of African cultural features from the Nile Valley to West Africa through his examination of toponyms (Diop 1974, 182-183). In the Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Diop discussed the common totems and religious terms many African ethnic groups share (Diop 1978, 124).

LINGUISTIC TAXONOMY

This linguistic research has been based on linguistic classification or taxonomy. Linguistic taxonomy is the foundation upon which comparative and historical linguistic methods are based (Ruhlen 1994). Linguistic taxonomy is necessary for the identification of language families. The determination of language families give us the material to reconstruct the proto-language of a people and discover regular sound correspondences.

There are three major kinds of language classifications: genealogical, typological, and areal. A genealogical classifica-tion groups languages together into language families based on the shared features retained by languages since divergence from the common ancestor or proto-language. An areal classification groups languages into linguistic areas based on shared features acquired by a process of convergence arising from spatial proximity. A typological classification groups languages together into language types by the similarity in the appearance of the structure of languages without consideration of their historical origin and present, or past geographical distribution.

COMPARATIVE METHOD

Diop has used comparative and historical linguistics to illuminate the Unity of African civilization. Diop (1977, xxv) has noted that

"The process for the evolution of African languages is clearly apparent; from a far we (have) the idea that Wolof is descendant by direct filiation to ancient Egyptian, but the Wolof, Egyptian and other African languages (are) derived from a common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common African or the Negro- African of L. Homburger or of Th. Obenga."

The comparative method is used by linguists to determine the relatedness of languages, and to reconstruct earlier language states. The comparative linguist has two major goals (1) trace the history of language families and reconstruct the mother language of each family, and (2) determine the forces which affect language. In general, comparative linguists are interested in determining phonetic laws, analogy/ correspondence and loan words.

Diop is a strong supporter of the comparative method in the rediscovery of Paleo-African. The reconstruction of Paleo-African involves both reconstruction and recognition of regular sound correspondence. The goal of reconstruction is the discovery of the proto-language of African people is the recovery of Paleo-African:

(1) vowels and consonants

(2) specific Paleo-African words

(3) common grammatical elements; and

(4) common syntactic elements.

The comparative method is useful in the reconstruction of Proto-languages or Diop's Paleo-African. To reconstruct a proto-language the linguist must look for patterns of correspondences. Patterns of correspondence is the examination of terms which show uniformity. This uniformity leads to the inference that languages are related since uniformity of terms leads to the inference that languages are related since conformity of terms in two or more languages indicate they came from a common ancestor.

HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS

A person's language provides us with evidence of the elements of a group's culture. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about a group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologist make precise inferences about a groups culture elements.

Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.

LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY

The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.

Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant.(Diagne, 1981,p.238) The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.

African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items.(Diagne,1981, p.239) In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages.(Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1993)

The political stability of African political institutions has caused languages to change very slowly in Africa. Pawley and Ross (1993) argue that a sedentary life style may account for the conservative nature of a language.

African oral traditions and the eye witness accounts of travelers to Africa, make it clear that African empires although made up of diverse nationalities illustrated continuity. To accomodate the plural nature of African empires Africans developed a Federal system of government. (Niane , 1984) In fact we can not really describe ancient African state systems as empires, since this implies absolute rule or authority in a single individual. This political state of affairs rarely existed in ancient Africa, because in each African speech community local leadership was elected by the people within the community. (Diop, 1987) For example the Egyptians often appointed administrators over the conquered territories from among the conquered people. (Diop ,1991)

The continuity of many African languages may result from the steady state nature of African political systems, and long standing cultural stability since neolithic times. (Diop, 1991 ; Winters 1985) This cultural stability has affected the speed at which African languages change.

In Africa due to the relative stability of socio-political structures and settled life, there has not been enough pressure exerted on African societies as a whole and African speech communities in particular, to cause radical internal linguistic changes within most African languages. Permanent settlements led to a clearly defined system of inheritance and royal succession. These traits led to stability on both the social and political levels.

This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and

Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:

First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time.(pp.153-154)

There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms. He concluded that:

I would have said that on this evidence African languages are changing with glacial slowness, but it seems to me that in a century a glacier would have changed a lot more than that. Perhaps it would be more in order to say that these languages are changing with geological slowness. (Armstrong, 1962, p.285).

Diop's theory of linguistic constancy recognizes the social role language plays in African language change. Language being a variable phenomena has as much to do with a speaker's society as with the language itself. Thus social organization can influence the rate of change within languages. Meillet (1926, 17) wrote that:

Since language is a social institution it follows that linguistics is a social science, and the only variable element to which one may appeal in order to account for a linguistic change is social change, of which language variations are but the consequences.

THE BLACK AFRICAN ORIGIN OF EGYPT

Diop has contributed much to African linguistics. He was a major proponent of the Dravidian-African relationship (Diop 1974, 116), and the African substratum in Indo-European languages in relationship to cacuminal sounds and terms for social organiza-tion and culture (1974, 115). Diop (1978, 113) also recognized that in relation to Arabic words, after the suppression of the first consonant, there is often an African root.

Diop's major linguistic effort has been the classification of Black African and Egyptian languages . Up until 1977 Diop'smajor area of interest were morphological and phonological similarities between Egyptian and Black African languages. Diop (1977, 77-84) explains many of his sound laws for the Egyptian-Black African connection.

In Parènte Génétique de l'Egyptien pharraonique et des Langues Négro Africaines (PGEPLNA), Diop explains in some detail

his linguistic views in the introduction of this book. In PGEPLNA , Diop demonstrates the genetic relationship between ancient Egyptian and the languages of Black Africa. Diop provides thousands of cognate Wolof and Egyptian terms in support of his Black African-Egyptian linguistic relationship.

PALEO-AFRICAN

African languages are divided into Supersets (i.e., a family of genetically related languages, e.g., Niger-Congo) sets, and subsets. In the sets of African languages there are many parallels between phonological terms, eventhough there may be an arbitrary use of consonants which may have a similar sound. The reason for these changes is that when the speakers of Paleo-African languages separated, the various sets of languages underwent separate developments. As a result a /b/ sound in one language may be /p/ or /f/ in a sister language. For example, in African languages the word for father may be baba , pa or fa, while in the Dravidian languages we have appan to denote father.

Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about an ethnic group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologists make precise inferences about a linguistic group's cultural elements.

BLACKS IN WEST ASIA

In PGEPLNA Diop makes clear his views on the role of African languages in the rise of other languages. Using archaeological evidence Diop makes it clear that the original West Asians: Elamites and Sumerians were of Black origin (1974, 1977, xxix-xxxvii).

Diop (1974, 1991) advocates the unity of Black Africans

and Blacks in West Asia. Winters (1985,1989,1994) has elaborated on the linguistic affinity of African and West Asian languages.

This view is supported by linguistic evidence. For example these languages share demonstrative bases:

Proximate Distant Finite

Dravidian i a u

Manding i a u

Sumerian bi a

Wolof i a u

The speakers of West Asian and Black African languages also share basic culture items:

Chief city,village black,burnt

Dravidian cira, ca uru kam

Elamite Salu

Sumerian Sar ur

Manding Sa furu kami,"charcoal'

Nubia sirgi mar

Egyptian Sr mer kemit

Paleo-African *sar *uru *kam

OBENGA

Obenga (1978) gives a phonetic analysis of Black African and Egyptian. He illustrates the genetic affinity of consonants within the Black African (BA) and Egyptian languages especially the occlusive bilateral sonorous, the occlusive nasal apico-dental /n/ and /m/ , the apico-alveolar /r/ and the radical

proto-form sa: 'man, female, posterity' in Black Africa.

Language

Agaw asau, aso 'masculine

Sidama asu 'man'

Oromo asa id.

Caffino aso id.

Yoruba so 'produce'

Meroitic s' man

Fonge sunu id.

Bini eso 'someone'

Kikongo sa,se,si 'father'

Swahili (m)zee 'old person'

Egyptian sa 'man'

Manding si,se 'descendant,posterity,family'

Azer se 'individual, person'

Obenga (1978) also illustrated the unity between the verbs 'to come, to be, to arrive':

Language

Egyptian ii, ey Samo, Loma dye

Mbosi yaa Bisa gye

Sidama/Omo wa Wolof nyeu

Caffino wa Peul yah, yade

Yoruba wa Fonge wa

Bini ya Mpongwe bya

Manding ya,dya Swahili (Ku)ya

between t =/= d, highlight the alternation patterns of many Paleo-African consonants including b =/= p, l =/= r ,and

g =/= k.

The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:

Galla senyi

Malinke se , si

Sumerian se

Egyptian sen 'granary'

Kannanda cigur

Bozo sii

Bambara sii

Daba sisin

Somali sinni

Loma sii

Susu sansi

Oromo sanyi

Dime siimu

Egyptian ssr 'corn'

id. ssn 'lotus plant'

id. sm 'herb, plant'

id. isw 'weeds'



In conclusion, Diop has done much to encourage the African recovery of their history. His theories on linguistics has inspired many African scholars to explain and elaborate the African role in the history of Africa and the world. This has made his work important to our understanding of the role of Black people in History.



REFERENCES

Armstrong,R.G. (1962). Glottochronology and African linguistics. Journal of African History,3(2), 283-290.

Baines, J. (1991, August 11). Was civilization made in Africa? The New York Times Review of Books, 12-13.

Bynon,T. (1978). Historical linguistics. London: Cambridge University Press.

Crawley,T. 1992. An Introduction to Historical Linguistics. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Delafosse,M. (1901). La Langue Mandigue. Paris.

Diagne,P. (1981). In J. Ki-Zerbo (Ed.), General history of Africa I: Methodology and African prehistory (233-260). London: Heinemann Educational Books Ltd.

Diop, C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality. Westport, Conn.:Lawrence Hill and Company.

Diop,C.A. (1977). Parentè gènètique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des languues Negro-Africaines. Dakar: Institut Fondamental d'Afrique Noire.

Diop, C.A. (1978). Precolonial Black Africa. Wesport, Conn. :Lawrence Hill and Company.

Diop, C.A. 1981. A methodology for the study of migrations. In African Ethnonyms and Toponyms, by UNESCO. (Unesco: Paris) 86--110.

Diop, C.A. (1991). Civilization or Barbarism. Brooklyn,N.Y.:

Lawrence Hill Books.

Dweyer, D.J. (1989). 2. Mande. In John Bendor-Samuel (Ed.), The Niger-Congo Languages (47-65). New York: University Press of America.

Ehret,C. (1988). Language change and the material correlates of language and ethnic shift. Antiquity, 62, 564-574.

Ehret,C. & Posnansky (Eds.). (1982). The Archaeological and linguistic reconstruction of African history. Berkeley: University of California Press.

Hock,H.H. (1988). Principles of historical linguistics. Amsterdam: Mouton de Gruyter.

Labov,W.(1965). The social motivation of a sound change. Word, 19, 273-309.

Labov.,W. (1972). The internal evolution of linguistic rules. In Stokwell,R.P. and Macaulay, R.K.S. (eds.) Linguistic change and generative theory (101-171). Bloomington: Indiana University Press.

Lefkowitz, M. (1992, February 10). Not out of Africa. The New Republic, 29-36.

Mbiti, J. S. 1970. African religions and Philosophy. Garden City: Anchor Press.

Meillet, A. 1926. Introduction à l'etude comparatif des languages Indo-Europeennes. Paris.

Moitt,B. (1989) Chiekh Anta Diop and the African diaspora: Historical continuity and socio-cultural symbolism. Presence Africaine, 149/150, 347-360.

Pawley,A. & Ross,M. (1993). Austronesian historical linguistics and culture history. Annual Review of Anthropology, 22, 425-459.

McIntosh, S. K. & McIntosh, R. (1983). Forgotten Tells of Mali. Expedition, 35-47.

Niane,D.T.(Ed.). (1984). Introduction. General History of Africa IV (1-14). London: Heinemann Educational Books.

Obenga,T. (1978). The genetic relationship between Egyptian (ancient Egyptian and Coptic) and modern African languages. In

UNESCO (Ed.), The peopling of ancient Egypt and the deciphering of the Meroitic script (65-72). Paris: UNESCO.

Obenga, T. (1993). Origine commune de l'Egyptien Ancien du Copte et des langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Editions L'Harmattan.

Lord,R. (1966). Comparative Linguistics. London: St. Paul's House.

Olderogge, L. (1981). Migrations and ethnic and linguistic differentiations. In J. Ki-Zerbo (Ed.),General History of Africa I: Methodology and African History (271-278). Paris: UNESCO.

Robins, R.H. (1974). General Linguistics. Bloomington: Indiana State University Press.

Ruhlen, M. 1994. The origin of language. New York: John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

Welmers, W. (1968). Niger Congo-Mande. In T.A. Sebeok (Ed.), Current Trends in Linguistics, 7,113-140.

Williams, B. (1987). The A-Group Royal Cemetery at Qustul:Cemetery L. Chicago: Oriental Institute, University of Chicago Press.

Winters,C.A. (1985). The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians.Tamil Civilization,3(1), 1-9.

Winters,C.A. (1986). The Migration routes of the Proto-Mande. The Mankind Quarterly,27(1), 77-96.

Winters, C.A. 1989. Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the genetic model. International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18 (1), 98-127.

Winters, C.A. (1994). Afrocentrism:A valid frame of reference. Journal of Black Studies, 25 (2), 170-190.

Yurco,F. 1989. Were the ancient Egyptians Black? Biblical Archaeology.

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Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..]

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Niger Kongo came from Greenberg.
[/qb]

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The irony is that almost ALL theories the so called "Afrocentrics" have came from people of European descent.

@Swenet shared with me a very good post and in the early pages of that book they detail on how it was scholars of European descent who first argued that Ancient Egypt was an African civilization.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
[qb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
[qb]

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..]

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Niger Kongo came from Greenberg.

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The irony is that almost ALL theories the so called "Afrocentrics" have came from people of European descent.

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Posts: 348 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..

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Posts: 348 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Who are the European authors who claimed the ancient Egyptians were Black Africans--not mixed--Black?

.

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According to Dr. Winters in the video it was white researchers Lilias Homburger, in the late 40s and her teacher Maurice Delafosse who said African languages like
Niger–Congo languages came from Egyptian

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Who are the European authors who claimed the ancient Egyptians were Black Africans--not mixed--Black?

.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

True to the game Diop said play,
"an authentic anthropology",

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quote:

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Ethiopians and Copts are two Negro groups subsequently
mixed with different white elements in various regions.

Negroes of the Delta interbred gradually with Mediterranean Whites
who continually filtered into Egypt. This formed the Coptic branch,
composed mostly of stocky individuals inhabiting a rather swampy
region.

On the Negro Ethiopian substratum a White element was grafted,
consisting of emigrants from Western Asia , whom we shall
consider shortly. This mixture, in a plateau region, produced
a more athletic type. Despite this constant and very ancient crossbreeding,
the Negro characteristics of the early Egyptian race have not
yet disappeared; their skin color is still obviously black and
quite different from that of a mixed breed with 50 percent
white blood. In most cases, the color does not differ from that of other Black Africans.

Thus we can understand why the Copts, and especially the Ethiopians,
have features slightly deviant from those of Blacks free of any admixture
with white races.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Egypt, located on the isthmus of Africa, is an ideal region to study historical population dynamics due to its geographic location and documented interactions with ancient civilizations in Africa, Asia, and Europe. Particularly, in the first millennium BCE Egypt endured foreign domination leading to growing numbers of foreigners living within its borders possibly contributing genetically to the local population. Here we mtDNA and nuclear DNA from mummified humans recovered from Middle Egypt that span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the Third Intermediate to the Roman Period. Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more Near Eastern ancestry than present-day Egyptians, who received additional Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

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Source [/qb][/QUOTE]

Your freight train is coming..lol



http://img06.deviantart.net/b6c4/i/2016/091/8/e/it_s_just_a_freight_train_coming_your_way___by_demonichell-d9xa94y.png

quote:

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Originally posted by Akachi:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..

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http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1547/valley-origins-dispersal-niger-speakers

^^ The thread IS open, an has been for about 3 years now...state your case against it there.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@Swenet
lol. But I meant to say book. Anyways(off-topic), I'm still enjoying it and thanks. I'll give you my full review when I am done. Been taking my time with it.

And yeah I remember the whole "ALL European scholars were/are racist!!!"

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Akachi:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..

---

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1547/valley-origins-dispersal-niger-speakers

^^ The thread IS open, an has been for about 3 years now...state your case against it there.

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Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] esp. when Swenet and Beyoku do it way better than I can.

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quote:

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But at the end of the day your chickens are coming home to Roose, you can either deny it or find ways to explain it away....either way

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Any who the information regarding the relationship of "Niger-Congo" speaking populations and ancient Kemet has been thoroughly laid out for you look through.

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1547/valley-origins-dispersal-niger-speakers

You lames are promoting a revised Hamitic Hypothesis for over a decade. Most of you "regulars" are not black (instant tune off), but are agent Caucasian liberals sent to cause confusion to what is obvious (the general tactic of the Caucasian). Did you quote Metallica?.. Point proven!

Posts: 348 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Lol, you got me f-ke up if you think Im gonna waste my time

---

That's exactly what he wants you to do. Note how he questions your ethnicity for quoting Metallica but posts a meme of spongebob (a real staple in adult African American tv ).

Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
I always thought that before the Napoleonic
expedition the widespread opinion was AE
were one of the black peoples.
Champollion lamented as much.

After seeing Denon's sketches reveal
AE Civ, then all the black denial began.

Volney point blank advocated black AE,
black like our slaves he said, and his
book was censored in south USA
until he refused to distribute it
there unless with black Egypt
passages intact.

"There a people, now forgotten, discovered, while others, were yet barbarians, the elements of the arts and sciences. A race of men, now rejected from society for their sable skin and frizzled hair, founded on the study of the laws of nature, those civil and religious systems which still govern the universe."

and

"What a subject for meditation, just think that the race of black men today our slaves and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, science and even the use of our speech."

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Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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The makeup of the new members changed. Also, even the long standing members who were here way before I was, who should know better, don't seem to have a strong mental foundation against appealing, but false information. Charlie Bass posted DNA Tribes' analysis of the Amarna family in 2012 and he never placed a critical note.

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quote:

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Others didn't raise an eyebrow, either. For the first time, it seems like folks felt they no longer had to suppress what they secretly wanted AE to be and threw everything out of the window.

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quote:

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People were susceptible to regressing because a desire to mix Pan-Africanism with history is the underlying context and motivation for a lot of what gets posted here. Which is cool if these people want to do that, but then let's call a spade a spade. Why hide it and pretend we're a force to be reckoned with online?

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quote:

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why talk this Great Lakes stuff when you think no one is looking and then get mad and scream "True Negro fallacy" when Brace et al tests these claims? Why is Ramses III's haplogroup all over this forum, but Canary Island 'aDNA' and things of that nature not only get little airplay, but people make elaborate narratives that would never pass the test of these data. OOA is only interesting when it places Africa at the forefront of human evolution and when it's ammo against Euronuts, but not when it complicates the precious narrative that all Africans are close. The same goes for African diversity, which is seen as a good thing until it dawns on people that diversity implies distance between populations.

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

---

Egypt, located on the isthmus of Africa, is an ideal region to study historical population dynamics due to its geographic location and documented interactions with ancient civilizations in Africa, Asia, and Europe. Particularly, in the first millennium BCE Egypt endured foreign domination leading to growing numbers of foreigners living within its borders possibly contributing genetically to the local population. Here we mtDNA and nuclear DNA from mummified humans recovered from Middle Egypt that span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the Third Intermediate to the Roman Period. Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more Near Eastern ancestry than present-day Egyptians, who received additional Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

---

Source

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Akachi:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] esp. when Swenet and Beyoku do it way better than I can.

---

quote:

---

But at the end of the day your chickens are coming home to Roose, you can either deny it or find ways to explain it away....either way

---

Any who the information regarding the relationship of "Niger-Congo" speaking populations and ancient Kemet has been thoroughly laid out for you look through.

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1547/valley-origins-dispersal-niger-speakers

You lames are promoting a revised Hamitic Hypothesis for over a decade. Most of you "regulars" are not black (instant tune off), but are agent Caucasian liberals sent to cause confusion to what is obvious (the general tactic of the Caucasian). Did you quote Metallica?.. Point proven!

---

Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

The funny part is Keita(and others) warned mofos(Both Afrocentric and Eurocentric btw) to be careful with that sh@t, Keita was tying to help them out way back then but it fell on deaf ears...Ill bet Keita (and others) are look at the study like...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Lol, you got me f-ke up if you think Im gonna waste my time

---

That's exactly what he wants you to do. Note how he questions your ethnicity for quoting Metallica but posts a meme of spongebob (a real staple in adult African American tv ).

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Akachi:

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Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
[qb]

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] I honestly dont know when or where this whole Niger Kongo Egypt theory sprung up and gained so much of a following here. The chickens are def. coming home to roost thats for sure..]

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Niger Kongo came from Greenberg.

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The irony is that almost ALL theories the so called "Afrocentrics" have came from people of European descent.

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Dr. Winters just pointed your fallacy out to you.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
The funny part is Keita(and others) warned mofos(Both Afrocentric and Eurocentric btw) to be careful with that sh@t, Keita was tying to help them out way back then but it fell on deaf ears...Ill bet Keita (and others) are look at the study like...

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Originally posted by Swenet:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Lol, you got me f-ke up if you think Im gonna waste my time

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That's exactly what he wants you to do. Note how he questions your ethnicity for quoting Metallica but posts a meme of spongebob (a real staple in adult African American tv ).

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Let me add an I told you so. The study will demonstrate that these

Are white people.

Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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This belief, often referred to as the Hamitic hypothesis, is a convenient explanation for all the signs of civilization found in Black Africa. It was these Caucasoids, we read, who taught the Negro how to manufacture iron and who were so politically sophisticated that they organized the conquered territories into highly complex states with themselves as the ruling elites. This hypothesis was preceded by another elaborate Hamitic theory. The earlier theory, which gained currency in the sixteenth century, was that the Hamites were black savages, 'natural slaves'-and Negroes. This identification of the Hamite with the Negro, a view which persisted throughout the eighteenth century, served as a rationale for slavery, using Biblical interpretations in support of its tenets. The image of the Negro deteriorated in direct proportion to the growth of the importance of slavery, and it became imperative for the white man to exclude the Negro from the brotherhood of races. Napoleon's expedition to Egypt in 1798 became the historical catalyst that provided the Western World with the impetus to turn the Hamite into a Caucasian. The Hamitic concept had as its function the portrayal of the Negro as an inherently inferior being and to rationalize his exploitation. In the final analysis it was possible because its changing aspects were supported by the prevailing intellectual viewpoints of the times.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Now let us see whether the research of the brother of Champollion the Younger, Father of Egyptology, has shed any light on the subject. This is how he introduces the topic:

The opinion that the ancient population of Egypt belonged to the Negro African race, is an error long accepted as the truth. Since the Renaissance, travelers in the East, barely capable of fully appreciating the ideas provided by Egyptian monuments on this important question, have helped to spread that false notion and geographers have not failed to reproduce it, even in our day.

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the Egyptians had black skin and woolly hair. Yet these two physical qualities do not suffice to characterize the Negro race ...

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Swenet:
As always on this forum, I suggest to rational, level-headed readers (lurkers) to read real books and papers. If you want a review of European views on ancient Egypt, the information is out there.

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The Ancient Egyptians as Blacks and the Founders of Western Civilization

At the end of the 18th century, this third vision began to be advocated. According to
this the Ancient Egyptians were both African and the founders of western civilization.
The probable – and improbable – beginning of this intellectual trend came from the
works of the intrepid Scottish traveller James Bruce. In the 1760s and 1770s Bruce
travelled through Egypt and spent several years in Ethiopia (Bruce 1790). He was a
conservative and at times advocated the beneficial effects of slavery. At the same time,
however, he saw connections between the civilizations of Ethiopia and Egypt, and
believed that the Ethiopian form was the older. For Bruce, the source of the (Blue) Nile
was the source of civilization. Bruce finally published the descriptions of his travels
in 1790. Fifteen years before that, however, he had many meetings with notables in both
England and France on the eve of the French Revolution. It was in the heady
atmosphere of this period that the idea that the ancient Egyptians were both civilized
and black Africans took shape.

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Grégoire’s work, published in 1808, was translated into English in Brooklyn in
1810, and as early as 1814 it was giving more confidence to educated African
Americans (Hodges 1997: xix–xx). The theme that Black Egyptians had founded
civilization was taken up in two powerful pamphlets published in 1829. One, The
Ethiopian Manifesto, Issued in Defence of the Black Man’s Rights in the Scale of Universal
Freedom was by Robert Alexander Young. The other, which was still more influential,
was Walker’s Appeal to the Coloured Citizens of the World. Walker argued that
Egyptian enslavement of the Israelites had been far less onerous and demeaning than
that of Africans in the United States (Walker [1829] 1993: 27–30, 39).

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

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The makeup of the new members changed. Also, even the long standing members who were here way before I was, who should know better, don't seem to have a strong mental foundation against appealing, but false information. Charlie Bass posted DNA Tribes' analysis of the Amarna family in 2012 and he never placed a critical note.

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Yes I noticed, hardly any of the veteran posters still come here except Al and you, glad you guys are still keeping hope alive. I just dont have the time right now.

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Others didn't raise an eyebrow, either. For the first time, it seems like folks felt they no longer had to suppress what they secretly wanted AE to be and threw everything out of the window.

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This seems to be the case, I know I and other serious posters always pointed out similarities between Egypt and other African cultures but I never advocated a Niger Congo/Bantu Egypt lol I noticed that Afrocentrics on Youtube and else where are doing the same as poster here claiming Egypt was some Pan African ancestral home, where before during ES heyday most people kept Egypt in a North East African context, you had a few Pan Africanists but they were more sneaky, now the cats out the bag so to speak.

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People were susceptible to regressing because a desire to mix Pan-Africanism with history is the underlying context and motivation for a lot of what gets posted here. Which is cool if these people want to do that, but then let's call a spade a spade. Why hide it and pretend we're a force to be reckoned with online?

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So true, and lol @ people thinking that this version of ES is a force to be reckoned with. Maybe at one point we were not any more though, ES has become the defacto home of racist Albinism/White people and a spamming stop for frauds like Clyde Winters and Mike111. Its funny many of these posters were not even here during the height of ES but now try to leech off the hard work of the Vets who dont post here anymore.

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why talk this Great Lakes stuff when you think no one is looking and then get mad and scream "True Negro fallacy" when Brace et al tests these claims? Why is Ramses III's haplogroup all over this forum, but Canary Island 'aDNA' and things of that nature not only get little airplay, but people make elaborate narratives that would never pass the test of these data. OOA is only interesting when it places Africa at the forefront of human evolution and when it's ammo against Euronuts, but not when it complicates the precious narrative that all Africans are close. The same goes for African diversity, which is seen as a good thing until it dawns on people that diversity implies distance between populations.

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This is why its a waste of time to debate these people who adhere to their theories with a sort of religious zeal, anything that goes against them is instantly the product of white racism of some other scapegoat. These people are not here for objective rational approach to history but to feel good about themselves and to stick it to whitey etc.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged |