quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @Akachi. Here is your problem to solve. Egyptian Nubians show DISCONTINUITY with Sudanese Nubians in regards to E-M2.
Sudanese by and large in nearly all contemporary studies show discontinuity with Egyptians as far as E-M2, A3b2, B2a, E-V32, V-65, M128,
You can go ahead and play the Euroclown role and say Egyptian Nubians are recent migrants from Sudan if you want but we know that the area where hey live has always been differentiated. They are not new migrants to the region.
You are arguing these populations come from Sudan based on a lineage that is not at all found in Sudan!
That's interesting.
When you say discontinued, do you mean in gradient level?
Data shows that Egyptians have SOME...and Sudanese have NONE. You should be fimiliar with these studies by now. They have none probably for the same reasons why the have little to no E-M81 which exists in Egypt.
Akachi is falling back an old Eurocentric talking point to prove a point : This is arguing that Nubians in Egypt are "New" migrants from Sudan. Euroclowns do this to argue that Nubians (Black People) are new to Egypt and all Black people you see in the southern region are Nubian newcomers or admixed with them. Next week he will be on Topix.com arguing the opposite, that Nubians are Native to Egypt and always been there. He flip flops like that. He the type to criticize a member for posting Metallica lyrics meanwhile be on Facebook talking about how Black folks invented Rock and Metal. Be shouting 'We was Kings' a la DNA Tribes while at the time talking about we was Hebrews and wasnt African at all. SMH.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The kidnapped girls from Nigeria was done by Hausas. [/QB]
Uhm, I thought Boko Haram is predominantly Kanuri?
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----------------- Histologic findings in mummified skin - Thomas A. Chapel, M.D., Amir H. Mehregan, M.D., and Theodore A. Reyman, M.D. Detroit, MJ
Skin specimens from five mummies were examined histologically. The specimens ranged in age from 2,000 to 3,200 years . Material from two mummies had carbonized and showed only amorphous debris. The histology of the three remaining skin fragments retained surprising histologic architectural detail. One specimen obtained from the sole of the foot was compatible with a callus.
(J AM ACAD DERMATOL 4:27-30 , 1981.)
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Department of Biology I, Biodiversity Research/Anthropology1and Department of Veterinary Anatomy II2, Ludwig-Maximilians University Munich, Germany
Submitted January 8, 2002; revised May 4, 2004; accepted August 12, 2004
Abstract During an excavation headed by the German Institute for Archaeology, Cairo, at the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt, three types of tissues from different mummies were sampled to compare 13 well known rehydration methods for mummified tissue with three newly developed methods. Furthermore, three fixatives were tested with each of the rehydration fluids. Meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and a placenta were used for this study. The rehydration and fixation procedures were uniform for all methods. The stains used were standard hematoxylin and eosin, elastica van Gieson, periodic acid-Schiff, and Grocott, and five commercially obtained immunohistochemical stains including pancytokeratin, vimentin, alpha-smooth-muscle-actin, basement membrane collagen type IV, and S-100 protein. The sections were examined by transmitted light microscopy. Our study showed that preservation of the tissue is dependent on the quality and effectiveness of the combination of the rehydration and fixation solutions, and that the quality of the histological and histochemical stains is dependent on the tissue quality. In addition, preservation of the antigens in the tissues is dependent on tissue quality, and fungal permeation had no influence on the tissue. Finally, the results are tissue specific. For placenta the best solution combination was Sandison and solution III (both fixed with formaldehyde) while results for skin were best with Ruffer I (using formaldehyde and Schaffer as fixatives), Grupe et al. (using formaldehyde as a fixative) and solution III (in combination with formaldehyde and Bouin fixatives). Ruffer II (using formaldehyde as a fixative) and solution III (in combination with Schaffer fixative) gave the best results for fibrocartilage
Egyptian mummies were prepared by chemical dehydration, and the skin was covered with plant resin or mineral pitch prior to elaborate wrapping. Despite these factors, many areas of the skin of these mummies have been well preserved. The dehydration procedures and the passage of centuries have made the skin hard, brittle, and virtually water-free. However, following rehydration and histologic processing, surprising morphologic detail often remains . This report describes the histologic findings of skin fragments from five Egyptian mummies, although experience of one of us (T. A . R.) suggests that the changes in the Aleutian and North and South American mummies are similar.
===== The specimens ranged in age from 2 ,000 to 3,200 years . The first four specimens were random skin sections, while the one from the Royal Ontario Museum mummy consisted of one of two contiguous papules, 0.3 to 0.5 em, from the sole of the right foot in the area of the second and third metatarsal heads
===== Fig. 1. Tissue from the nape of the neck shows a ****DEEPLY*** pigmented epidermis. Occasional clear cells (arrow) are recognized at the dermoepidermal junction. In the papillary connective tissue are nuclei of fibroblasts. (Hematoxylin-eosin stain; X60.)
=====
Fig. 2. In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair follicle suggesting formation of a KINKY HAIR SHAFT. (Hematoxylin-eosin stain; x60.)
djoser-xyyman Nomarch ****
1. 1.Cockburn, TA, Barraco, RA, Reyman, TA, Peck, WH. Autopsy of an Egyptian mummy. Science. 1975;187:1155–1160. o CrossRef o | PubMed o | Scopus (6) 2. 2.Autopsy of an Egyptian mummy (NAKHT-ROMI). Can Med Assoc J. 1977;117:1–10. 3. 3.Sandison, AT. The histological examination of mummified material. Stain Technol. 1955;30:277–283. o PubMed 4. 4.Pinkus, H, Mehregan, AH. in: A guide to dermatohistopathology. ed. 2. Appleton-Century-Crofts, New York; 1976:68–72. 5. 5.Giacometti, L, Chiarelli, B. The skin of Egyptian mummies. A study in survival. Arch Dermatoi. 1968;97:713–716. 6. 6.Reyman, TA, Barraco, RA, Cockburn, A. Histopathological examination of an Egyptian mummy. Bull NY Acad Med. 1976;52:506–516. o PubMed 7. 7.Zimmerman, MR, Clark, WH. A possible case of subcorneal pustular dermatosis in an Egyptian mummy. Arch Dermatol. 1976;112:204–205. o CrossRef o | PubMed o | Scopus (7) 8. 8.Post, PW, Daniels, F. Histological and histochemical examination of American Indian scalps, mummies, and a shrunken head. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1969;30:269–294. o CrossRef o | PubMed 9. 9.Barraco, RA, Reyman, TA, Cockburn, TA. Paleobiochemical analysis of an Egyptian mummy. J Hum Evol. 1977;6:533–546. o CrossRef o | Scopus (5)
posted
Black skin and kinky hair doesn't say much. It doesn't matter if they carry "Eurasian" genealogy. It is part of African diversity. YRI carry "Eurasian" ancestry. EVERYONE does!!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: I assume that anyone saying you need one drop rules to call ancient Egyptians black are on a cognitive dissonance stunt.
Well, under the one drop rule the AE may be more African than they are under your criteria. Under the one drop role they're at least unquestionably 'black' (using that weird logic). Under your standards, they're only as black as they fit your own description of the term. According to you Charles Barkley is 75% 'black' and 'black' is that 75% in him. If you apply this thinking to a lot of African(-derived) populations (e.g. Natufians, Abusir, who no doubt have ancient Egyptian ancestry) you will severely underestimate their African ancestry.
Again, none of this is mine. My definition of race is that it is 100% opinion and my opinion is that the definition should be a tool to gain power regardless of genetics, facial features or skin color. If black horses, Olmecs, Berbers Irish or Indians produce black power then they are black in my opinion.
The reference was to Leftkowtiz's and other people's hypocrisy. Barkley's skin color, genetics and Marry Leftkowitz's one drop reference are all state, nation, genetic and forensic definitions of race that people pretend accept on one context then deny in another.
To put it simple. 'One drop' was a law that penetrated and permeated in the culture. SSA ancestry can ID someone in court. Its hypocritical to reference the one drop 1/16 rule when you know there are people who are like 75-99% SSA with lighter skin than the typical image of an ancient Egyptian. These rules, these populations like SSA, black and one drop are the creations of white people so for them to then play stupid and act like Egyptians were too brown to be black when there are plenty examples of people who by those same rules are heavy SSA and just as brown, I accept that as cognitive dissonant front for their racism. Marry Leftkowitz is not stupid and neither are people who make that argument. So I don't try to break it down I just accept it as racism.
quote: Upper Palaeolithic OOA populations only ~0-10% 'black'? C'mon bro. Own up to the consequences of the terminology you use. People who deny AE are 'black' using your standards are still using your standards. Just because they come to an undesired and inconvenient conclusion it doesn't mean they're not using the same standards.
Its not my terminology and I was not talking about Upper Palaeolithics. I was talking about ancient Egyptians.
I personally don't buy into this stuff. Clyde is right to some extent. We can see how Net Geo defines North African. Some of this is subjective however I don't deny the obvious. The black race creation tends to have lots of SSA and...
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: Show me some white folks who would argue that Barkley is too light to be black. So hold North Africans to the same standard as African Americans.
Barkley is #27 on the Luschan Scale. Unambiguous black is #29-36, so he's pretty close. Few people would disagree his skin colour is black, but some ambiguity still exists. Do you know about fuzzy sets? The problem is when you run into mid # 20s like Obama. Its then a case of maximum ambiguity (again, look up fuzzy logic). Are the Basters of South Africa black? They're the same pigmentation as Obama.
There wouldn't be much a problem if Afrocentrists just argued the low ambiguity cases like Barkley are black. But they're arguing for maximum ambiguity and I've seen bizarre posts where light brown shades are described as 'black'. Anyway, that's probably the last I will discuss this its quite boring and as others pointed out skin colour is irrelevant to phylogeny (because of convergent evolution.)
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: Again, none of this is mine.
Then help me understand. Because your views are well-documented. You anticipated AE to have frequent steatopygia, strong prognathism, flat noses, wide noses, afro textured hair, etc. Those are your views, correct? What I'm saying is, by those standards, someone can come to the conclusion that the AE don't and/or mildly fit those criteria (depending on the sample and the variable I just mentioned).
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: Besides. Plug the alleles from all royals taken so far into http://cracs.fc.up.pt/popaffiliator/index.php and see what you get. People who are 60-90% SSA. More than Barkley.
I already did. Now set the population option to 5, instead of 3, and see if you get the same results. (You won't get the same results, because you only got them because North Africa was excluded). Be sure to post the results here so people can hear it from someone else instead of me, for once.
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New Kingdom African Kings -- Mekota et al 2002
Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the NOBLES in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550 /1080 BC).
Skin Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin. In the dermis, the hair follicles, hair, and sebaceous and sweat glands were readily apparent (Fig. 2). Blood vessels, but no red blood cells, and small peripheral nerves were identified unambiguously (Fig. 3). The subcutaneous layer showed loose connective tissue fibers attached to the dermis, and fat cell remnants were observed. To evaluate the influence of postmortum tissue decay by micro-organisms, the samples were tested for the presence of fungi using silver
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posted
Histologic findings in mummified skin - Thomas A
This report describes the histologic findings of skin fragments from five Egyptian mummies
and one from the Royal Ontario Museum ," Toronto, Ontario, were examined. The specimens ranged in age from 2 ,000 to 3,200 years . The first four specimens were random skin sections
histology of the three remaining skin fragments retained surprising histologic architectural detail. Tissue from the nape of the neck of a particularly well-preserved mummy from the Detroit Institute of Arts showed deep pigmentation of the basal layer (Fig. 1). The horny layer was thick and orthokeratotic. A number of melanocytes (clear cells) were recognized at the dermoepidermal junction, and cell nuclei were
No sebaceous glands were demonstrated, but there were several hair follicles. One follicle contained a deeply pigmented, medullated hair shaft with a curved hair matrix (Fig. 2). A specimen from the leg of another mummy
wall of keratinocytes was well preserved, and a number of longitudinally sectioned sweat ducts were present. There were also cross sections of eccrine sweat ducts with deeply stained membranes (Fig. 4) .
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Don't you get it? The only mummies or mummy study that counts is • the Abusir heads from the last quarter of Kemet history most of which are after the Persians put an end to native political rule or domination over the Nile Valley forever • Schuenemann's "in press" paper's slideshow leaks presented at two conferences this spring.
But it's not faith based to throw away all previous report results because now we have Horemheb Arrow99 Hammer European farmer people are the AEs and started AE civ thrown at us by true negro geno-hamiticists.
Get it got it wink wink
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Nobody said Jesus was blonde and we know
posted
There is no genetic proof of foreigners in Egypt unless these foreigners were also Africanized people. R1b-M269 is non-existent in Extant Egyptians as well as mtDNA H1 and H3. yDNA J2 is a possibility but that may be refecltive of Ottoman Turk since the same pattern of J2 is seen in the cities of North Africa and NOT outside the cities.
---- Histologic findings in mummified skin - Thomas A
This report describes the histologic findings of skin fragments from five Egyptian mummies
and one from the Royal Ontario Museum ," Toronto, Ontario, were examined. The specimens ranged in age from 2 ,000 to 3,200 years . The first four specimens were random skin sections
histology of the three remaining skin fragments retained surprising histologic architectural detail. Tissue from the nape of the neck of a particularly well-preserved mummy from the Detroit Institute of Arts showed deep pigmentation of the basal layer (Fig. 1).
Fig. 1. Tissue from the nape of the neck shows a ****DEEPLY*** pigmented epidermis. Occasional clear cells (arrow) are recognized at the dermoepidermal junction. In the papillary connective tissue are nuclei of fibroblasts. (Hematoxylin-eosin stain; X60.)
=====
Fig. 2. In the deep dermis is an acutely curved hair follicle suggesting formation of a KINKY HAIR SHAFT. (Hematoxylin-eosin stain; x60.)
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @Akachi. Here is your problem to solve. Egyptian Nubians show DISCONTINUITY with Sudanese Nubians in regards to E-M2.
Sudanese by and large in nearly all contemporary studies show discontinuity with Egyptians as far as E-M2, A3b2, B2a, E-V32, V-65, M128,
You can go ahead and play the Euroclown role and say Egyptian Nubians are recent migrants from Sudan if you want but we know that the area where hey live has always been differentiated. They are not new migrants to the region.
You are arguing these populations come from Sudan based on a lineage that is not at all found in Sudan!
That's interesting.
When you say discontinued, do you mean in gradient level?
Data shows that Egyptians have SOME...and Sudanese have NONE.
Beyoku...this is getting sad. I've already address your NONSENSE..
quote: Beyoku...stop it! As we have noted earlier, you're playing technical games with that "Native" Sudanese ****. The sample from the study cited was from the known Nubian territory on the border of Sudan and Egypt.
^^^ I don't have TIME...for those types of semantics Beyoku. That bullshit is what you MUST resort to try to derail my narrative (you've been here for a DECADE and don't have narrative..something is fishy with that) shows how weak your crux is.
We all know that the bio-cultrual affinities of the Nubian population in that particular region of Upper Egypt to northern Sudan form a genetic continuum that relates the populations irregardless of 140 year old political borders.
" Genetic continuum of the Nubians with their kin in southern Egypt is indicated by comparable frequencies of E-V12 the predominant M78 subclade among southern Egyptians." [Hassan et al. Y-chromosome variation.." Am J. Phy Anthro. v137,3. 316-323 Read more:
Therefore there is no reason to believe that the noted frequency of M2 lineage (around 1/3) seen in those southern "Egypto"-Nubians is different than those in the adjacent northern Sudanese Nubians.
From a common sense prospective lets skip Sudan and YOU explain WHY the Hell is the M2 lineage is in the "creme of the crop" of the Nile which is Egypt (said by SOY to have been present in the region since the early Holocene). If you're going to try to derail the Sudanese origin of the population then you have to have an alternative as to explain how the Hell did the M2 lineage and Sickle Cell carrying Negroid populations came into Pre-Dynastic-Dynastic Kemet. you need to explain what migration from what other regios brought that E1b1a (and noted associated traits) that characterized Ramses III and the Amarna period pharaohs into the Nile Valley.
quote:Akachi is falling back an old Eurocentric talking point to prove a point : This is arguing that Nubians in Egypt are "New" migrants from Sudan.
Beyoku...You need to show where I insinuated that bullshit at or stop lying.
quote: Euroclowns do this to argue that Nubians (Black People) are new to Egypt and all Black people you see in the southern region are Nubian newcomers or admixed with them.
LIES.
quote: Next week he will be on Topix.com arguing the opposite, that Nubians are Native to Egypt and always been there. He flip flops like that.
LIES. I've never had an account there (several other places, but not there).
quote: He the type to criticize a member for posting Metallica lyrics meanwhile be on Facebook talking about how Black folks invented Rock and Metal.
Yes..That is due to the albinoid corruption of the music obviously! The music is shitty, because black people do not listen to that whack Caucasian redundant, rhythmless ****, and so it remains that way! Those types of melaninated people are lost! Caucasians know that and they attempt to make them the face for any issues that may come.
quote:Be shouting 'We was Kings' a la DNA Tribes while at the time talking about we was Hebrews and wasnt African at all. SMH.
More needle dick lies to compensate for his LACK OF A NARRATIVE! Tukler.. he has been here for over a decade, and is unwilling to disclose his opinion on the origins of Niger-Congo speakers and their context throughout the African story. What is wrong with that man?!
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Those aren't genetic data though. Mind you, I think it remains to be seen how representative the sampled mummies are of AE (although I expect there to be some foreigners and admixture in northern Egypt at that time and place). But skin pigmentation and hair texture are only part of the picture (if they're relevant at all) to biological affinities.
posted
So is testing actual M2 in actual Nubians the white man's devil science, but predicting it from some half-assed microsatellite data in Egyptians the melaninated truth? Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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Those aren't genetic data though. Mind you, I think it remains to be seen how representative the sampled mummies are of AE (although I expect there to be some foreigners and admixture in northern Egypt at that time and place). But skin pigmentation and hair texture are only part of the picture (if they're relevant at all) to biological affinities.
They are relevant, people know how but won't come forward and say a thing... but to add on to this; Xyyman's studies aren't really much in context. The thing is, Xyyman has a hypothesis & He sticks to it with conviction. He has to say things like "There is no genetic proof of foreigners in Egypt unless these foreigners were also Africanized people." for his hypothesis to be admissible. He openly expresses what he feels happened in African --> European population history. No knock on him, he's straight forward and transparent. "Europeans are depigmented Africans" All of his statements will be in concordant to corroborating that claim.
He's probably (most likely) wrong ...Somehow he could be right, to me it doesn't really matter, if I know where he's coming from. I can openly disagree knowing his agenda.
...With that being Said, Xyyman you really beleive this sample represents a native African sampleset w/ no OOA geneflow. Did you not read ishgebors/Tukulers/Jari's posts on the Abusir/Lower Egyptian demographic, or Djehutis quoted excerpt on the page before last? Like look at the MtDNA distribution. Even if they're all found in African pops, how do you manage the likelyhood of all of them being found with the exception of the predominant L lineages that would be found in the respective African populations??
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: "There is no genetic proof of foreigners in Egypt unless these foreigners were also Africanized people."
How could someone say this with a straight face???
Beats the snot outta me?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Then help me understand. Because your views are well-documented. You anticipated AE to have frequent steatopygia, strong prognathism, flat noses, wide noses, afro textured hair, etc. Those are your views, correct?
I don't know about frequent steatopygia. I recall mentioning that all of those traits are found in predynastic art so I would expect that, however I would also expect people who look like hungarians dipped in different chocolates. I am familiar with Tukuler's reference to Chancellor Williams, the Destruction of Black Civilisation and the Narmer Palette. I defer to the abundance of the art with specific attention to honest/blind recreations, small painted models when paint is less of a finite commodity and shabti dolls where whole unbroken noses are common.
quote: What I'm saying is, by those standards, someone can come to the conclusion that the AE don't and/or mildly fit those criteria (depending on the sample and the variable I just mentioned).
Frequent steatopygia, strong prognathism, flat noses, wide noses, afro textured hair lol is true negro. By my estimates its par for a diverse African/west Asian nation.
quote:I already did. Now set the population option to 5, instead of 3, and see if you get the same results. (You won't get the same results, because you only got them because North Africa was excluded). Be sure to post the results here so people can hear it from someone else instead of me, for once.
Last I tried it wanted extra alleles for 5 pops and I was not ready to go down that rabbit hole. Maybe one day.
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posted
^ Enter values that peak in Egypt , Sudan, Uganda or Senegal......don't matter.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: @ xyyman
Those aren't genetic data though. Mind you, I think it remains to be seen how representative the sampled mummies are of AE (although I expect there to be some foreigners and admixture in northern Egypt at that time and place). But skin pigmentation and hair texture are only part of the picture (if they're relevant at all) to biological affinities.
ancDNA papers are now reporting • skin colour • eye color • hair color routinely because of course they're relevant.
You're right about the hair. Not a peep on texture.
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posted
Its bizarre why people here think the ancient Egyptians on average had those "broad" (i.e. "Negroid") features. They didn't. Read Baker (1974) for an accurate description of what typical dynastic Egyptians looked like:
quote:In their monuments the dynastic Egyptians represented themselves as having a long face, pointed chin with scantly beard, a straight or somewhat aquiline nose, black irises, and a reddish-brown complexion. On the evidence of their mummies it would appear that the head-hair was curly, wavy, or almost straight, and very dark brown or black. Facial and body-hair was scantly apart from the chin tuft of males. The skeletons show that stature was low, and the bones are slight and suggest a rather feeble frame. The skulls stand near the dividing-line between meso-and dolicocranial, with bulging occiput; viewed from on top they appear coffin shaped or ovoid; supraciliary ridges are poorly developed or absent; the forehead is nearly vertical. The cheeks are narrow, the reliability of their images. There is some tendency towards projection of the face and jaws (mesognathy).
Hence if you read most physical-anthro literature from say 1850 to 1970's, the ancient Egyptians were "Caucasoid" senso lato, but not "Caucasoid" senso stricto, meaning a small amount of mixture was always recognised in the skulls, although nowhere near the extent you could detect common "broad" features. Coon (1965) therefore described northernmost Africans such as Tunisian/Moroccan Berbers and Egyptians as "although essentially Caucasoid, they show the absorption of an indigenous element."
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: Its bizarre why people here think the ancient Egyptians on average had those "broad" (i.e. "Negroid") features. They didn't. Read Baker (1974) for an accurate description of what typical dynastic Egyptians looked like:
quote:In their monuments the dynastic Egyptians represented themselves as having a long face, pointed chin with scantly beard, a straight or somewhat aquiline nose, black irises, and a reddish-brown complexion. On the evidence of their mummies it would appear that the head-hair was curly, wavy, or almost straight, and very dark brown or black. Facial and body-hair was scantly apart from the chin tuft of males. The skeletons show that stature was low, and the bones are slight and suggest a rather feeble frame. The skulls stand near the dividing-line between meso-and dolicocranial, with bulging occiput; viewed from on top they appear coffin shaped or ovoid; supraciliary ridges are poorly developed or absent; the forehead is nearly vertical. The cheeks are narrow, the reliability of their images. There is some tendency towards projection of the face and jaws (mesognathy).
Hence if you read most physical-anthro literature from say 1850 to 1970's, the ancient Egyptians were "Caucasoid" senso lato, but not "Caucasoid" senso stricto, meaning a small amount of mixture was always recognised in the skulls, although nowhere near the extent you could detect common "broad" features. Coon (1965) therefore described northernmost Africans such as Tunisian/Moroccan Berbers and Egyptians as "although essentially Caucasoid, they show the absorption of an indigenous element."
LOL AT THIS BABBLE BOX.
quote: Miguel Botella Lopez
Two skulls excavated from the Qubbet el-Hawa necropolis in Egypt.
By Stephanie Pappas
LiveScience
Even the best-off ancient Egyptians suffered from malnutrition and preventable disease, a new analysis of mummies and skeletons finds.
The bodies come from the Qubbet el-Hawa necropolis, which is near the modern city of Aswan in southern Egypt. Constructed in the 12th dynasty (between 1939 B.C. and 1760 B.C.) and reused in later periods, the necropolis contains remains of people from across the social spectrum.
An analysis of more than 200 of these bodies, which has not yet been published in a peer-reviewed journal, finds that wealth did not necessarily buy health in ancient Egypt.
"Although the cultural level of the age was extraordinary, the anthropological analysis of the human remains reveals the population in general, and the governors — the highest social class — lived in conditions in which their health was very precarious, on the edge of survival," study researcher Miquel Botella Lopez of the University of Granada said in a statement.
Life expectancy was only about 30 years, the researchers found, thanks to a high infant mortality rate, malnutrition and gastrointestinal infections caused by drinking polluted Nile waters. A great many of the dead in the necropolis were between 17 and 25 years old, the researchers announced Wednesday.
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: Its bizarre why people here think the ancient Egyptians on average had those "broad" (i.e. "Negroid") features. They didn't. Read Baker (1974) for an accurate description of what typical dynastic Egyptians looked like:
quote:In their monuments the dynastic Egyptians represented themselves as having a long face, pointed chin with scantly beard, a straight or somewhat aquiline nose, black irises, and a reddish-brown complexion. On the evidence of their mummies it would appear that the head-hair was curly, wavy, or almost straight, and very dark brown or black. Facial and body-hair was scantly apart from the chin tuft of males. The skeletons show that stature was low, and the bones are slight and suggest a rather feeble frame. The skulls stand near the dividing-line between meso-and dolicocranial, with bulging occiput; viewed from on top they appear coffin shaped or ovoid; supraciliary ridges are poorly developed or absent; the forehead is nearly vertical. The cheeks are narrow, the reliability of their images. There is some tendency towards projection of the face and jaws (mesognathy).
Hence if you read most physical-anthro literature from say 1850 to 1970's, the ancient Egyptians were "Caucasoid" senso lato, but not "Caucasoid" senso stricto, meaning a small amount of mixture was always recognised in the skulls, although nowhere near the extent you could detect common "broad" features. Coon (1965) therefore described northernmost Africans such as Tunisian/Moroccan Berbers and Egyptians as "although essentially Caucasoid, they show the absorption of an indigenous element."
It's bizarre a euronut keeps typing euroloons nonsense with Caucasoid claims.
posted
From what I can recollect from High School biology , it still takes a man to impregnate a woman and his yDNA will be passed down to his son. That said, there is no male lineage found in modern Egypt that is not of African(East) origin. Since I contend that R1b-M269 may be of West (North )African origin. J1 is omnipresent in Africa and may have existed in Africa since the early Holocene. J2 may be the only external or non-African lineage found in Egypt and the rest of Africa. It is primarily found in Coastal cities of North Africa. Since it's geographic pattern is "spotty" the most plausible scenario is Ottoman Turks. Or Ashkenazi expulsion.
It other words the genetic pattern does NOT fit the "documented" history of Persian or European Greek invasion regardless of what "you read". Maybe someone can point out my error....if they can.
@ELMaestro. ALL!, ALL! , ALL! genetic evidence publish to date supports what I have been saying all along. Europeans are a subset of Africans and there was never "back-migration". The genetic pattern is consistent with IBD. ALL of it. What some of you fools don't understand is for the "high frequency of autosomes" to work in lieu of IBD, there needed to be pure isolation followed by unique mutation in that landmass then re- expansion. And this will supported by yDNA or mtDNA. They, autosomes AND lineage needs to work together. AND IT DOES NOT!!!!!! That is why I am 100% correct and no one can disprove what I am saying. No One! And these researchers know this. That is why they always use one or the other never BOTH lineage and admixture charts. That is why they stopped used TreeMix or are selective about using it. That is why they left North Africa out of the Bell Beaker Study when North has huge amounts of megaliths and BBC also. Also when there is archeological evidence that the culture preceded that in Europe. You fools, it is a game. Don't you understand that. These scientist know that it is a game and we are the pawns with our silly arguments. The AEians are indigenous Africans, there is no" if they were" or any nonsense like that. The really question is how Africanized were the Greeks...and what happened to ancient Greeks. Arnaiz-Villens was correct.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: "There is no genetic proof of foreigners in Egypt unless these foreigners were also Africanized people."
How could someone say this with a straight face???
Beats the snot outta me?
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posted
As I tell the fools over at Davidski and he keeps deleting my post. There was never ever MALE ONLY Steppes migration. Since The YAmnya ancestry preceded supposed Steppes migration in Western Europe. It is all a game perpetuated by SOME scientists. It is not sloppy work. It is a game. I work in the field. Any scientist worth his weight in gold knows what to do and how to sample to get at the answers to this. They are not doing what is necessary or are not publishing. As I told Capra and OM on Davidski. They need to do in depth analysis of peoples off the west African coast like Cape Verde and Soa tome Principe. The clues are there. Remember Shriver et al after studying extant Cape Verdeans concluded that the white skin gene preceded OOA and blue eyes is unrelated to light skin. He concluded that light eyes may have existed long before light skin. La Brana, Loschbour and KOS14 proved he was correct. Black skinned people with blue eyes. These were the hunter gatherers of Europe. Remarkably the light skin people with dark eyes entered from Africa only 6-7K years ago meeting a black skin blue eyed people. Many Cape Verdean have the black skinned blue eye trait(attributed to colonization), BUT the odd thing is their lineage age is NOT typical Sub-Saharan Africans. Again the "historical records" do NOT match the genetic profile of the people.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Hausa language is the region's lingua franca.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
The kidnapped girls from Nigeria was done by Hausas.
Uhm, I thought Boko Haram is predominantly Kanuri?
I was told Hausa. But it's from hearing. [/QB]
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posted
This type of post was deleted by Davidski. The argument was blue eyes in Africa. Here the researcher back in the 1960's observed blue eyes in South Africans and could not explain it. This was aside to those who may have Waardenburg Syndrome. He admits that blues eyes exist in Africans but is not transmitted to the next generation by the same Mendelians process as in "Caucasians". Yet within the same paper he admits in some Danish families they also do NOT transmit by the same mechanism. Aren't Europeans screwed up? Prejudices makes them stupid and irrational ...and...that is their weakness.
THE INCIDENCE OF BLUE EYES IN SOUTH AFRICAN NEGROES*- With special reference to the_ Waardenburg syndrome --- J. Soussi
"Non-Waardenburg cases In the present study, thirty individuals have been recorded whose only unusual feature is blue eyes. This figure includes the fifteen individuals from the original Zulu.
This assumption is not entirely justified, since blue-eyed Negroes who do not show any other signs of the syndrome do exist, as has been shown in the present study. "
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: This type of post was deleted by Davidski. The argument was blue eyes in Africa. Here the researcher back in the 1960's observed blue eyes in South Africans and could not explain it. This was aside to those who may have Waardenburg Syndrome. He admits that blues eyes exist in Africans but is not transmitted to the next generation by the same Mendelians process as in "Caucasians". Yet within the same paper he admits in some Danish families they also do NOT transmit by the same mechanism. Aren't Europeans screwed up? Prejudices makes them stupid and irrational ...and...that is their weakness.
THE INCIDENCE OF BLUE EYES IN SOUTH AFRICAN NEGROES*- With special reference to the_ Waardenburg syndrome --- J. Soussi
"Non-Waardenburg cases In the present study, thirty individuals have been recorded whose only unusual feature is blue eyes. This figure includes the fifteen individuals from the original Zulu.
This assumption is not entirely justified, since blue-eyed Negroes who do not show any other signs of the syndrome do exist, as has been own in the present study. "
This is why I'm writing a book called the miseducation of the albino.
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posted
Did Boko Haram really kidnap those girls, kept them captives for several years then release them? Time to bring Africans(west) in the supposed "war"?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Just so the board should know, Baker's 10X more racist than Coon. For instance, Baker says Greeks taught plastic art to Nigerians and Roman's civil engineering.
Caucasoid means caucasian-like.
Thinner featured linear faced east Africans are as old as the area's oldest Hss.
These fossils and their living descendants were Speke, Stuhlmann, and Seligman's excuse for fabricatinng the Hamitic Hypothesis, dark white caucasians, and Hamites.
Coon made these Africanist terms anthropologist norms and Baker is nothing but a failed resurrection of Coon.
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: Read Baker (1974) for an accurate description of what typical dynastic Egyptians looked like:
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] From what I can recollect from High School biology , it still takes a man to impregnate a woman and his yDNA will be passed down to his son. That said, there is no male lineage found in modern Egypt that is not of African(East) origin. Since I contend that R1b-M269 may be of West (North )African origin. J1 is omnipresent in Africa and may have existed in Africa since the early Holocene. J2 may be the only external or non-African lineage found in Egypt and the rest of Africa. It is primarily found in Coastal cities of North Africa. Since it's geographic pattern is "spotty" the most plausible scenario is Ottoman Turks. Or Ashkenazi expulsion.
It other words the genetic pattern does NOT fit the "documented" history of Persian or European Greek invasion regardless of what "you read". Maybe someone can point out my error....if they can.
You are saying the genetic pattern does NOT fit the "documented" history of Persian or European Greek invasion
what pattern are you referring to?
What haplogroups would represent a Persian or European Greek invasion but instead you are saying we don't don't find them?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
Proponents of the post Napoleonic version of the Hamitic hypothesis (the one we still deal with in contemporary anthropology), on the other hand, push their touted admixture date to the terminal pleistocene, and, more importantly, they postulate the existence of an intrinsic and deterministic link between this admixture and morphometric overlap with Eurasians, so that every population in Africa with such morphometric overlap automatically becomes a recipient of the said admixture.
Logically, Pagani et al 2012 and Pickrell et al 2013's admixture event estimates would not affect, nor explain the features of Gash cultured? Pwenet people depicted in Hatshepshut's Del Bahari temple. It would not explain nor affect the features of the LSA Great Rift Eburran cultured people who are attested since the Terminal Pleistocene, and logically predate it since the features appear 'as is' with no availability of earlier skeletal material that documents a transition.
The radical facial differentiation of these LSA peoples relative to MSA predecessors may represent a parallel evolution event as they have a plethora of traits that are peculiar to them and are not seen in Ethio-Semitic and Cushitic speakers.
quote:All the Upper Paleolithic peoples of Kenya were of Caucasoid or proto-Hamitic stock; they are represented by the Gamble's Cave and Naivasha skeletons, as well as the skeleton from Olduvai in northern Tanganyika. They were tall and dolichocephalic, with long face and narrow nose (the 'Elmenteitan type'); the other is brachycephalic, with a shorter face but also with a narrow nose. These two types are represented by Elmenteita A and F1 (Fig. 5 (2 and 3)) from Bromhead's site. The same types persist into the Neolithic, but now a third variation appears in the ultra-dolichocephalic skulls from Willey's kopje (Fig. 5 (4)); these differ from the Elmenteitan type by having a shorter face, a more prominent nose, and a different kind of mandible.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Just remember Hamiticism is inseparably linked to NE & E Africa as AMH Caucas(ian/oid) so it's not necessarily needing post chalcolithic or historic West Eurasian invaders.
Besides the Wiedner map from Doc Ben, Diop exposed Caucas(ian/oid) AMH E Africans as exemplified by Masai physiognomy in particular.
Think of that geneticist who postulated Maasai as best modern reps of ancient Egyptians, a safe view because of the NE&E African AMH Caucas(ian/oid) ideology correlate of Hamiticism.
= = = = = = =
The human skeletons discovered by Leakey near Elmenteita (Kenya) in the grotto called Gamble's Cave II, and which probably belonged to the same human type as the Olduvai man (northern Tanzania) of the Capsian, have caused much ink to flow. "It is certain that these are not true Negroes, in the usual sense of the word. These are men comparable to the Nilotics in the Great Lakes region, or else comparable to the lighter-skinned populations of those territories. A skeleton recently found at Naivasha (Kenya) obviously belongs to the same type."
From these discoveries, prehistorians, historians, and ethnologists draw conclusions of varying importance concerning the early peopling of Black Africa. In the Olduvai man, Cornevin sees the ancestor of the Nilotic, of the Shilluk, Dinka, Nuer, and Masai. He makes him a Caucasoid. His existence, Cornevin contends, "proves that it is useless to make the East African, improperly called Nilo-Hamitic, come from India or Arabia." Finally, referring to the Naivasha man just mentioned, on the next page he writes that archeological research reveals affinities with the Cro-Magnon race: "tall stature, low, wide face, broad forehead, rectangular sockets, thin nose, little prognathism."
There was no Cro-Magnon man in sub-Saharan Africa. At an interview that Professor Vallois was kind enough to grant me at the Paris Institute of Human Paleontology, this scientist was categorical about this. Only the Boskop man (Transvaal Province, South Africa) was, for a time, considered as a Cro-Magnoid having affinities with the Bushman. But this opinion was later abandoned by its partisans. Cornevin, unfortunately, continues to confuse Grimaldi man -- a "Negroid" with marked prognathism and broad nose -- with Cro-Magnon man, who is not at all prognathous but presents in hypertrophic fashion typical European traits: thin lips, prominent chin, narrow nose. There is reason to reexamine the documents.
The Negro has been there from the beginning; for millennia he was the only one in existence. Nevertheless, on the threshold of the historical epoch, the "scholar" turns his back on him, raises questions about his genesis, and even speculates "objectively" about his tardy appearance ...
Diop [Cook] 1974 pp.268,273-4
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
After origin of the species everything on that map is NON-AFRICAN. It's the same old Caucasian NE Africa bullshit that physical anthropology proposed a century ago and exposed by Doc Ben
As I said I am 100% correct. I should be paid for this shyte. A black meta population that inhabited Iberia, North Africa, to Melanesian up to about 6000bc. This hunter gather genetic material is found in high frequency in HG of Africa and Indigenous North Africans. A signal that Amzaigh are very old as I have been saying all along. The NEW Africans with E1b1a(from the Nile) are new to the regions of West Africa where they admixed with other existing Africans. These Neolithic Africans also migrated North into Europe. This is not rocket science. That is why Cape Verde and other coastal West Africans still have the Dark skin with blues eyes.
--- https://www.svt.se/nyheter/vetenskap/de-var-de-forsta-svenskarna DNA analysis says that the first immigrants in Scandinavia was dark-skinned and had blue eyes, a look that is very rare today. The second wave came from present-day Russia, and seems to have had lighter skin, to make it easier to produce vitamin D in the surrogate sunshine for sunless conditions. The image is our own interpretation of the researchers' results. Photo: Torbjörn Johansson, Swedish Television (Graphics) The first Swedes were dark-skinned and blue-eyed hunters and gatherers who wandered into Scandinavia from the south after the Ice Age ended about ten thousand years ago. New DNA research shows that soon they were joined by another wave of immigration - from the East. The result was Europe's most mixed stone age population. The first modern humans who migrated into the current Sweden when the ice began to loosen its grip for over 10,000 years ago were hunters and gatherers. Probably followed the herds of wild reindeer who lived along the ice edge.
Their skin was dark, believes Mattias Jakobsson a professor of genetics at Uppsala and one of the researchers in the Swedish Atlas project, which aims to map the genome of early populations in the country. Skin color is a legacy of African origin:
- They were genetically similar individuals who at the time lived in today's Luxembourg, Spain and Germany. They had a look that is quite rare today, they had blue eyes with the right dark skin.
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Ok! Let us reverse the perspective. Modern Egyptians are primarily E1b1b, E1b1a, J1, J2 in that order. Which of these are "non-African". BTW there is no R1b-M269. But there is R1b-v88. R1b is Western European. So as I said, no Western Europeans connection to AEians. Absolutely none. I nkw Cass like to use the word "Caucasian" to steal African history. But Now we know E1b1b is about 25% in Greeks. Africanized Greeks? The only connection between Persians/Iranians and modern Egyptians is J2. But that is found all over Coastal North Africa including Iberia. Is J2 a Greek marker of Persian Marker?
There is no evidence of foreign invasion of AE. The ottoman Turks or Ashkenazi's Expulsion are the only possibilities But these are RECENT...within the last 500years.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] From what I can recollect from High School biology , it still takes a man to impregnate a woman and his yDNA will be passed down to his son. That said, there is no male lineage found in modern Egypt that is not of African(East) origin. Since I contend that R1b-M269 may be of West (North )African origin. J1 is omnipresent in Africa and may have existed in Africa since the early Holocene. J2 may be the only external or non-African lineage found in Egypt and the rest of Africa. It is primarily found in Coastal cities of North Africa. Since it's geographic pattern is "spotty" the most plausible scenario is Ottoman Turks. Or Ashkenazi expulsion.
It other words the genetic pattern does NOT fit the "documented" history of Persian or European Greek invasion regardless of what "you read". Maybe someone can point out my error....if they can.
You are saying the genetic pattern does NOT fit the "documented" history of Persian or European Greek invasion
what pattern are you referring to?
What haplogroups would represent a Persian or European Greek invasion but instead you are saying we don't don't find them?
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I debunked Swenet on the Elmenteita crania years ago. Like you, he posts false dating for them. Leakey (1935) erroneously dated them 7400 BP, when they're no older than 2500 BP:
"Another indication that the Elmenteitan materials may in fact be younger is provided by the pottery. This has been identified by Bower and Nelson (1978: 563) as Remnant Ware (now again known as Elmenteitan pottery), which is widely distributed on the western side of the Rift. Dates have been obtained at several rockshelters, but even the earliest estimates fall at about 2500 BP. Most Elmenteitan lithic occurrences seem to be no older than this." (Rightmire, 1984 "Human Skeletal Remains from Eastern Africa")
They're no older than 500 BCE and probably closer to the 1 century CE; Rightmire (1984) dates them 2500-2000 BP. None of these remains are prehistoric.
The fact is there are no prehistoric East African crania with "Caucasoid" traits like narrow nasal aperture, microdonty (small teeth) and orthognathism. The Oldoway skull dates 16,000 BP, however it isn't leptorrhine or orthognathic:
Sonia Cole was writing in the 1950s/60s when Leakey's (1935) 7400 BP date for the Elmenteitan crania was still in use; that date was discredited in the late 70s & early 80s.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted Genetic studies related to Egypt thread :
G. Lucotte and G. Mercier. 2003. “Brief Communication:Y-chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt,” Am. J. Physical Anthropology 121:63-66.
We analyzed Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Nile River Valley in Egypt in 274 unrelated males, using the p-49a,fTaqI polymorphism. These individuals were born in three regions along the river: in Alexandria (the Delta and Lower Egypt), in Upper Egypt, and in Lower Nubia. Fifteen different p49a,fTaqI haplotypes are present in Egypt, the three most common being haplotypes V (39.4%), haplotypes XI (18.9%), and haplotypes IV (13.9%). Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab haplotypes, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt in the Nile River Valley. Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan populations, shows a southern geographical distribution in Egypt.
p. 65 As for mtDNA (Krings et al. 1999), the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotypes shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotypes, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotypes V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotypes IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI [with a 70% occurence in Ethiopia] also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings, et al. (1999) to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan.
It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events.
Concerning less frequent Y-haplotypes in Egypt, haplotype VIII is characteristic of Semitic populations, originating in the Near East (Lucotte et al., [1993]). For example (Lucotte et al., [1996]), the frequency of haplotype VIII is 26.2% among North African Jews (where it represents the majority haplotype) and 77.5% among Jews from the island of Djerba (Tunisia), reaching 85.1% among Oriental (from Iraq, Iran, and Syria) Jews. Similarly, haplotype VII had a general geographical distribution fairly identical to that of haplotype VIII (which it often accompanies as a secondary haplotype); haplotype VII distinguishes itself by increased preponderance north of the Mediterranean and in Eastern Europe (Lucotte et al., [1996]). Haplotype XV is the most widespread Y-haplotype in Western Europe (Lucotte and Hazout, [1996]), where its frequency decreases from west to east (Semino et al., [1996]; Lucotte and Loirat, [1999]). Haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV are less common haplotypes in Egypt (7.3%, 6.6%, and 5.5%, respectively), and tend to be located in the north of the country, near the Mediterranean coast. Possibly haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV represent, respectively, Near East, Greek, and Roman influences.
Table 1. My tabularization of the percentages in the abstract
IV Inner African_______39.1_______________27.3__________01.2__________13.9
XI Egyptian Ethiopian__30.4_______________28.8__________11.7__________18.9
V Arabian Semite______17.4_______________24.2__________51.9__________39.4
VIII Near East Semites_________________________________mostly coastal__07.3
VII N. Med E. Europe (Greek?)___________________________mostly coastal__06.6
XV W. Europe (Roman?)________________________________mostly coastal__05.5
Notice the national averages only total to 91.6% leaving 8.4% of the population split between the 9 remaining haplotypes not detailed in the abstract. Does anyone have the full report?
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 19 December 2004).]
BTW 42Tribes
I can compare your alleles to PopSTR database like I did for the Amarna and Ramses if you'd like and report your Africa, Levant, Old World, affinities. Can also check you against any royals of your choice.
And I won't have to fudge a single input variable.
Years ago, I proved faking input to PopAffilator yields fake output.
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posted
XyyMan, Enough with the semantics... All humans come from Africa. We aren't discussing the possibility of Multiregionalism here. Look at the diverse MtDNA Haplougroups in the Sample. Can you really sit here and tell us all that's indicative of unidirectional geneflow? If all of these Lineages directly descended from African populations, Where are the L lineages that predate and dominate the respective regions in Africa? You cannot hide behind IBD because this sample snaps the proposed gradient from Sudan(SSA) to the Levant... unless you want to Jump on the train that modern L lineages where recently brought to sudan and NE Africa.
You're setting yourself and others up for disaster.
"There is no evidence of foreign invasion of AE. The ottoman Turks or Ashkenazi's Expulsion are the only possibilities But these are RECENT...within the last 500years."
^you have been on this site for way too long (almost 1/2 of my total lifespan) for you to be saying things like this. I honestly feel like it would be disrespectful for me to have to check you on this... Unless of course you're being sneaky and what you mean by "Invasion" is a complete hostile takeover of all K.mt.... But then again we are talking about 1 region in Lower Egypt/faiyum as it relates to the OP.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
And I ain't replying to you anymore because as all ESers point out anybody conversant with the disciplines can sit your ass down.
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: @ Tukuler
I debunked Swenet on the Elmenteita crania years ago. Like you, he posts false dating for them. Leakey (1935) erroneously dated them 7400 BP, when they're no older than 2500 BP:
They're no older than 500 BCE and probably closer to the 1 century CE; Rightmire (1984) dates them 2500-2000 BP. None of these remains are prehistoric.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Yep I am fairly certain to say that all of the mummies STRed are more SSA than I (based on http://cracs.fc.up.pt/popaffiliator/mapa3.png) Maybe not Nefertiti. Haven't got to her yet.
I used the same loci as Ramses iii and the Amarnas but with some dummies to get to 9 and...
Me with Dummy 20 in D3S1358 Population Group Probability Eurasia 85.7% Sub-Saharan Africa 12.6% Asia 1.7%
Me with Dummy 9 in Topox Population Group Probability Sub-Saharan Africa 56% Eurasia 39.3% Asia 4.7%
Me with Dummy 8 in VWA Population Group Probability Sub-Saharan Africa 92.1% Eurasia 7.5% Asia 0.3%
Amenhotep iii Dummy 20 in D3S1358
Population Group Probability Sub-Saharan Africa 93.7% Eurasia 6% Asia 0.3%
Amenhotep iii Dummy 9 in Topox Population Group Probability Sub-Saharan Africa 93.7% Eurasia 6% Asia 0.3%
Amenhotep iii Dummy 8 in VWA Population Group Probability Sub-Saharan Africa 93.7% Eurasia 6% Asia 0.3%
even Neff
Nerfertiti (I assume YL is her) with Dummy 20 in D3S1358 Population Group Probability Eurasia 59.5% Sub-Saharan Africa 39.9% Asia 0.5%
Nerfertiti (I assume YL is her) 9 in Tpox
Population Group Probability Sub-Saharan Africa 83.2% Eurasia 16.3% Asia 0.5%
Nerfertiti (I assume YL is her) 8 in VWA Population Group Probability Sub-Saharan Africa 93.3% Eurasia 6.2% Asia
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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yes we are!!!!!..."We aren't discussing the possibility of Multiregionalism here". What do you think this is about?...Frequency!!
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: XyyMan, Enough with the semantics... All humans come from Africa. We aren't discussing the possibility of Multiregionalism here. Look at the diverse MtDNA Haplougroups in the Sample. Can you really sit here and tell us all that's indicative of unidirectional geneflow? If all of these Lineages directly descended from African populations, Where are the L lineages that predate and dominate the respective regions in Africa? You cannot hide behind IBD because this sample snaps the proposed gradient from Sudan(SSA) to the Levant... unless you want to Jump on the train that modern L lineages where recently brought to sudan and NE Africa.
You're setting yourself and others up for disaster.
"There is no evidence of foreign invasion of AE. The ottoman Turks or Ashkenazi's Expulsion are the only possibilities But these are RECENT...within the last 500years."
^you have been on this site for way too long (almost 1/2 of my total lifespan) for you to be saying things like this. I honestly feel like it would be disrespectful for me to have to check you on this... Unless of course you're being sneaky and what you mean by "Invasion" is a complete hostile takeover of all K.mt.... But then again we are talking about 1 region in Lower Egypt/faiyum as it relates to the OP.
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And I ain't replying to you anymore because as all ESers point out anybody conversant with the disciplines can sit your ass down.
Simpleton, read the source: "It is appropriate, therefore, to group the Elmenteitan people with the pastoralists discussed in the next section rather than with other Late Stone Age hunter/gatherers." Rightmire (1984) dates the Elmenteitan crania 2500-2000 BP; this can clearly be seen on the table ("approximate dates from radiocarbon determinations") on page 194.
"Caucasoid" traits like narrow nasal aperture and orthognathism are totally absent from the East African fossil record until very recent (well within recorded-history) about 2500 years ago.
The simple fact is these features didn't originate there, these traits/variables first appear in the European fossil record as early as Cro-Magnon 1.
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quote:Originally posted Genetic studies related to Egypt thread :
G. Lucotte and G. Mercier. 2003. “Brief Communication:Y-chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt,” Am. J. Physical Anthropology 121:63-66.
We analyzed Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Nile River Valley in Egypt in 274 unrelated males, using the p-49a,fTaqI polymorphism. These individuals were born in three regions along the river: in Alexandria (the Delta and Lower Egypt), in Upper Egypt, and in Lower Nubia. Fifteen different p49a,fTaqI haplotypes are present in Egypt, the three most common being haplotypes V (39.4%), haplotypes XI (18.9%), and haplotypes IV (13.9%). Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab haplotypes, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt in the Nile River Valley. Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan populations, shows a southern geographical distribution in Egypt.
p. 65 As for mtDNA (Krings et al. 1999), the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotypes shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotypes, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotypes V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotypes IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI [with a 70% occurence in Ethiopia] also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings, et al. (1999) to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan.
It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events.
Concerning less frequent Y-haplotypes in Egypt, haplotype VIII is characteristic of Semitic populations, originating in the Near East (Lucotte et al., [1993]). For example (Lucotte et al., [1996]), the frequency of haplotype VIII is 26.2% among North African Jews (where it represents the majority haplotype) and 77.5% among Jews from the island of Djerba (Tunisia), reaching 85.1% among Oriental (from Iraq, Iran, and Syria) Jews. Similarly, haplotype VII had a general geographical distribution fairly identical to that of haplotype VIII (which it often accompanies as a secondary haplotype); haplotype VII distinguishes itself by increased preponderance north of the Mediterranean and in Eastern Europe (Lucotte et al., [1996]). Haplotype XV is the most widespread Y-haplotype in Western Europe (Lucotte and Hazout, [1996]), where its frequency decreases from west to east (Semino et al., [1996]; Lucotte and Loirat, [1999]). Haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV are less common haplotypes in Egypt (7.3%, 6.6%, and 5.5%, respectively), and tend to be located in the north of the country, near the Mediterranean coast. Possibly haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV represent, respectively, Near East, Greek, and Roman influences.
Table 1. My tabularization of the percentages in the abstract
IV Inner African_______39.1_______________27.3__________01.2__________13.9
XI Egyptian Ethiopian__30.4_______________28.8__________11.7__________18.9
V Arabian Semite______17.4_______________24.2__________51.9__________39.4
VIII Near East Semites_________________________________mostly coastal__07.3
VII N. Med E. Europe (Greek?)___________________________mostly coastal__06.6
XV W. Europe (Roman?)________________________________mostly coastal__05.5
Notice the national averages only total to 91.6% leaving 8.4% of the population split between the 9 remaining haplotypes not detailed in the abstract. Does anyone have the full report?
[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 19 December 2004).]
BTW 42Tribes
I can compare your alleles to PopSTR database like I did for the Amarna and Ramses if you'd like and report your Africa, Levant, Old World, affinities. Can also check you against any royals of your choice.
And I won't have to fudge a single input variable.
Years ago, I proved faking input to PopAffilator yields fake output.
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