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Author Topic: Modern Greeks are Turks but ancient Cretans are Africans?
xyyman
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The origin of Cretan populations as determined by characterization of HLA alleles - A. Arnaiz-Villena

Abstract

The Cretan HLA gene profile has been compared with those of other Mediterranean populations in order to provide additional information regarding the history of their origins. The allele frequencies, genetic distances between populations, relatedness dendrograms and correspondence analyses were calculated. Our results indicate that the Indoeuropean Greeks may be considered as a Mediterranean population of a more recent origin (after 2000 B.C.), while all other studied Mediterraneans (including Cretans) belong to an older substratum which was present in the area since pre-Neolithic times. A significant Turkish gene flow has not been detected in the Greek or Cretan populations, although Greeks and Turks have two high frequency HLA-DRB-DQB haplotypes in common. It is proposed that Imazighen (Caucasoid Berbers living at present in the North African coast and Saharan areas) are the remains of pre-Neolithic Saharan populations which could emigrate northwards between about 8000–6000 B.C., when desert desiccation began. They also could be part of the stock that gave rise to Sumerians, Cretans and Iberians; this is supported by both linguistic and HLA genetic data.

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Thereal
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Are trying to say the white looking Berbers supposed to be ancient Mediterranean types? As there is alot of people with a color issue and prejudice against certain looking Africans making claims of white always existing and white people being the same when anatomically began.
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xyyman
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^ there is no race. I said that many times over.

"white looking" is indigenous to Africa. Under the skin. Berbers are Africans carrying STRs that is African. However they a far related to AEians. Go figure.

"Looks" do NOT tell the whole story.

anyways---

The origin of Cretan populations as determined by characterization of HLAalleles- M. Gonza´lez-Hevilla

Quote:
This may be explained if northward Saharan migrations occurred between 10,000 and 4000 B.C. (12); it may be
assumed that Saharans spoke a similar language with local differences, like present day Berber speaking people do in places close to
the Mediterranean coasts (Moroccan Rif, Algerian Kabylia) and other more distant ones located in the southern Sahara Desert (Tuaregs
in Algiers, Niger and Mali) (53).
Even if the HLA profile was similar in primitive Saharans, the local founder effect of the people
who emigrated and who finally established in Iberia, other Mediterranean places, Egypt or Sumer would have been diluted and
changed because of the subsequent admixture with the already existing people or with later invaders; however, a common genetic
substrate (relatedness) may still be noticed in Mediterraneans (Fig. 3a, b), which supports a common (Saharan) origin
. This is also
confirmed by linguistic similarities between present day Basque and Berber languages and ancient Iberian, Etruscan, Minoan (Linear
A), Coptic (ancient Egyptian) and Sumerian (20).
The Maghreb Berber language is presently spoken by about 20
million people distributed throughout Egypt (Siwa oasis), Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Western Sahara, Mauritania, Mali, Niger
and Chad (26). These people have different local names (Trarza in Western Sahara; Chleuh, Braber and Rifens in Morocco; Kabilians
and Mzabs in Algeria; Awyila and Sukna in Libya; Siwans in Egypt and Tuaregs, Iforas, Ahaggar, Ajjer, Ayr and Iullemeden in the
southern Sahara (53); they speak the Tamazight language, which joins all these groups (Imazighen). This language is highly influenced
by the Arabic language and understanding among different tribes is difficult; Tamazight has evolved rapidly locally because of
a strong Arabic influence. Imazighen have been left out at one side of history (26, 53), but they are probably descendants from the
primitive Saharans, which could be the origin of part of the Sumerians, Egyptians, Minoans, Iberians and Etruscans and thus represent
the roots of Western civilization (54) (see Fig. 4).
Saharan paleoarcheology and other old cultural aspects have been forgotten but
many Paleolithic and Neolithic tools (including a possible autochthonous chariot) and paintings are strewn throughout the Sahara
Desert
(55).

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Thereal
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I'm talking about the foreigners with similar features.
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Tukuler
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The mtDNA study on ancient Minoan samples
Hughey (2013)
indicated predominantly European mommies.
While downplaying African influence it had to
admit Minoans and N Africans hold 10% in
common and there was African cultural
input too.

Haplotypes of today from people living where
the Minoan samples came from are the same.

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xyyman
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@theReal -

For what it is worth I have a picture spamm thread on ESR of Berbers. There is commonality in their facila features. I don't think they as dark as Central Africans their younger siblings to the south. But they are not Europeans either. They are exactly where they should be. Africans living at higher latitude. Tunisians being the fairest and remarkable one of th epurest North africans. They have the unique wide cheek bine features characteristic of San, East Asians also have semi-aquilne nose and full lips. The so-called negroid features.

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Thereal
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My questioning is base on my incomplete understanding of African people in a timeframe throughout human history,the regions they settled and there genetic relationship to one another coupled that with a population being modified if the "right" circumstance ocurrs plus the terminology use doesn't even describe the people for a lack of a better word racially but on where they've been or what they call themselves.
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Snakepit1
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
@theReal -

For what it is worth I have a picture spamm thread on ESR of Berbers. There is commonality in their facila features. I don't think they as dark as Central Africans their younger siblings to the south. But they are not Europeans either. They are exactly where they should be. Africans living at higher latitude. Tunisians being the fairest and remarkable one of th epurest North africans. They have the unique wide cheek bine features characteristic of San, East Asians also have semi-aquilne nose and full lips. The so-called negroid features.

Pale skin did not evolve in Africa, North Africa is far too hot (i.e exposed to high "doses" of UV radiation) for its people to have lost their melanin, not to mention that peoples living at the same latitudes as Africa are all brown-skinned peoples.
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Lion
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quote:
Originally posted by Snakepit1:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
@theReal -

For what it is worth I have a picture spamm thread on ESR of Berbers. There is commonality in their facila features. I don't think they as dark as Central Africans their younger siblings to the south. But they are not Europeans either. They are exactly where they should be. Africans living at higher latitude. Tunisians being the fairest and remarkable one of th epurest North africans. They have the unique wide cheek bine features characteristic of San, East Asians also have semi-aquilne nose and full lips. The so-called negroid features.

Pale skin did not evolve in Africa, North Africa is far too hot (i.e exposed to high "doses" of UV radiation) for its people to have lost their melanin, not to mention that peoples living at the same latitudes as Africa are all brown-skinned peoples.
The pale skin also does not evolve in Europe.

Vitamin D deficiency is a real problem in Europe as levels in the blood are low in 50% to 70% of the population. Pérez-López points out that "healthcare professionals should be aware that this is a common problem which affects a large part of the population in Europe, even those who live in sunny places."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120110102058.htm

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xyyman
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I am scratching my head and wringing my hands not sure where to begin or address the above two comments.

Maybe someone else can have this one. I irate me to address stupid or ignorant comments and talk about voodoo science.

In short. All modern peoples living close to the equator which has high UV are black/dark skin, and that applies to Central Americans, Indians and Asia. That how it works. However the aDNA results coming in shows that for all humans outside of Africa(including Europe but not East Asia) may have had black pigmentation which includes La Brana and Neanderthals

Looking at the recent, 2017, studies(Henn and Tishkoff) , Apparently Africans always had the ability to develop light skin but it is only recently it happened outside Africa. The question is why and how?

Tic! Toc!

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Thereal
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Isn't the "how" part already explained by mutations in the genes that produce melanin so the issue is why did it happen.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I am scratching my head and wringing my hands not sure where to begin or address the above two comments.

Maybe someone else can have this one. I irate me to address stupid or ignorant comments and talk about voodoo science.

In short. All modern peoples living close to the equator which has high UV are black/dark skin, and that applies to Central Americans, Indians and Asia. That how it works. However the aDNA results coming in shows that for all humans outside of Africa(including Europe but not East Asia) may have had black pigmentation which includes La Brana and Neanderthals

Looking at the recent, 2017, studies(Henn and Tishkoff) , Apparently Africans always had the ability to develop light skin but it is only recently it happened outside Africa. The question is why and how?

Tic! Toc!

It's not an ability. That is not the proper word to describe a trait or a gene an you will not hear the word "ability" in that context in scientific text as if people could decide whether or not to use their "ability" as if it were a skill.


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
All modern peoples living close to the equator which has high UV are black/dark skin, and that applies to Central Americans, Indians and Asia.

Early humans or the ancestors of humans may have been covered in hair like chimpanzees are. Apes and monkeys have lighter skin under their hair because the hair acts like a barrier to excess UV radiation just like melanin in the skin

Also, much later after living only in Africa perhaps as long as 200,00o0 years people left Africa.
The people who lived in cold regions and may have had a little but not enough hair to survive in those regions would have to wear animal fur clothing to survive. If they did this for thousands of years their skin could have lightened because a melanin barrier would not be necessary

quote:
Originally posted by Autshumato:
https://qz.com/1102190/a-new-scientific-study-challenges-the-use-of-skin-color-as-a-classifier-for-race/


At the heart of white supremacist ideology is the belief that people of different races are biologically distinct, and people with very pale skin colors belong to a superior race that evolved from people with darker skin.
But findings from a recent scientific study strike a powerful blow to this myth. The study,
published in Science, challenges the use of skin color as a classifier for race at all.
Nicholas Crawford and Sarah Tishkoff at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia studied the genetics of skin color in over 1,500 African participants and compared the results to the hundreds of studies of skin color in Europeans. Researchers recruited volunteers from 10 ethnic groups living in Ethiopia, Tanzania, and Botswana and took their DNA samples and measured their skin pigmentation.
Once researchers combined and combed through the data, they were able to find eight sites in the human genome that are associated with skin color. These eight sites accounted for nearly 30% of the variation in skin color among the volunteers. Researchers found variants associated with paler skins and those associated with darker skin.
The study showed that seven paler skin variants are thought to have arisen at least 270,000 years ago; with four emerging more than 900,000 years ago. These variants for pale skin predated the arrival of Homo sapiens (who are estimated to have emerged from Africa 300,000 years ago ).
The findings may come as a surprise to some. Researchers have long believed that variants for darker skin color are somewhat fixed for people of African descent, while variants for lighter skin color emerged later on once humans settled outside of Africa. But the study points at what may seem obvious; skin color in Africa can vary widely, with lighter or darker skin pigments found across the continent. While the San hunter-gatherers of Botswana have lighter skin variants comparable to some East Asians, the Nilo-Saharan pastoralists from East Africa have some of the darkest skins around.
When looking at the darker-skin variants, researchers found that some variants evolved much more recently than initially thought. That is to say that participants with particularly dark skins may have gained the trait more recently from paler ancestors. Once again, this challenges the view that paler skin variants are more recently evolved, whilst darker skin variants remained constant and fixed in Africa. The study also suggests that some people with darker skin also carried a gene for lighter skinned variants, but though they don’t show it, they still carry a trait found within their population.
For researchers, the study blows away the biological concept of race all together. These variants for lighter or darker skin color don’t neatly fit into discrete groups or boundaries.
Most interestingly, researchers say they wouldn’t have been able to come to this conclusion had they not made the conscious decision to carry out their study in Africa. Researchers have previously focused predominantly on European descent—it wasn’t until they broadened their scope that they were able to piece together the puzzle of what unites us.

source article:

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2017/10/11/science.aan8433


Loci associated with skin pigmentation identified in African populations

Sarah Tishkoff et al December 2017

Abstract

Despite the wide range of skin pigmentation in humans, little is known about its genetic basis in global populations. Examining ethnically diverse African genomes, we identify variants in or near SLC24A5, MFSD12, DDB1, TMEM138, OCA2 and HERC2 that are significantly associated with skin pigmentation. Genetic evidence indicates that the light pigmentation variant at SLC24A5 was introduced into East Africa by gene flow from non-Africans. At all other loci, variants associated with dark pigmentation in Africans are identical by descent in southern Asian and Australo-Melanesian populations. Functional analyses indicate that MFSD12 encodes a lysosomal protein that affects melanogenesis in zebrafish and mice, and that mutations in melanocyte-specific regulatory regions near DDB1/TMEM138 correlate with expression of UV response genes under selection in Eurasians.

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JoshuaTheOracle
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I wanted to add to this a short hand contribution to this discussion that I participated in on another forum. Please excuse any misuse of words as it was written for a non technical audience in a casual environment.

White people are a result of a lack of vitamin D. Vitamin D is created when our skin is exposed to the ultraviolet light of the sun. This is a natural biological process to protect the human skin from the radiation of ultra-violet light. All life on earth does the same.

The problem is when black people live in areas with less sun exposure IE northern hemisphere, this can adversely affect our production of Vitamin D because what we were meant to protect against is now doing a disservice.

Certain mutations take place, but DNA evidence suggests that this mutation took place relatively recently.

"Paleogenomics researcher Carles Lalueza-Fox of the Pompeu Fabra University in Spain and his colleagues observed that a 7,000-year-old hunter-gatherer from the La Braña-Arintero labyrinthine cave in the Cantabrian Mountains possessed the allele for blue eyes but not the European mutations for lighter skin pigmentation."

https://www.livescience.com/42838-european-hunter...

But contrary as to what was previously assumed, it was unlikely that simply moving North changed the skin color but also a dramatic change in diet rapidly changed black people to white people in the northern hemisphere relatively recently.

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Linda Fahr
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JoshuaTheOracle

White people are a result of a lack of vitamin D. Vitamin D is created when our skin is exposed to the ultraviolet light of the sun. This is a natural biological process to protect the human skin from the radiation of ultra-violet light. All life on earth does the same
______________________________________

Not true!
I have white roses, and other white flowers in my garden, which take full sun during spring, summer, autumn, and winter...It never change color. In fact, the more sun it take more white and vigorous and beautiful it became. It will die if don't take any sun...Therefore, you can't apply your theory to all life on Earth...

--------------------
---lnnnnn*

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xyyman
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@Jashua. You have it part right. It has absolutely nothing to do with diet. It is a combination of latitude and genes. Neanderthal lived in Europe(high Latitude) for 300,000years and all DNA analyzed today on them shows they carried black pigmentation. Similar for Mesolithic Europeans. They carried ancestral genes for pigmentation. They were black in skin. So we can summarize that between 300,000-6000 years ago all humanity was black in Europe. So what changed? The frequency of the depigmentation genes.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Forty2Tribes
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
@Jashua. You have it part right. It has absolutely nothing to do with diet. It is a combination of latitude and genes. Neanderthal lived in Europe(high Latitude) for 300,000years and all DNA analyzed today on them shows they carried black pigmentation. Similar for Mesolithic Europeans. They carried ancestral genes for pigmentation. They were black in skin. So we can summarize that between 300,000-6000 years ago all humanity was black in Europe. So what changed? The frequency of the depigmentation genes.

By all humanity you mean all except albinos.
The birth of 'white' race is underway in Panama.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/panama-islands-home-hundreds-albinos-who-must-hide-tropical-sun-photos-1505673

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