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Author Topic: Modern Egyptians are 68% North African , 17% Arab - Nat Geo
the lioness,
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http://www.cairoscene.com/Buzz/National-Geographic-s-DNA-Analysis-Proves-Egyptians-Are-Only-17-Arab


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NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC'S DNA ANALYSIS CONCLUDES THAT EGYPTIANS ARE ONLY 17% ARAB
National Geographic answers the age-old question of whether Egyptians are genetically Arab or North African? Can you guess how much of Egyptians genetic makeup is North African? The results will surprise you.


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There are some Egyptians who believe they are Arab and others who believe Egyptians are North African, but according to National Geographic's research, Egyptians cultural DNA origins are more complicated and varied than we think. National Geographic's Genographic Project created a graph showing the global genetic makeup of nationals in each of their respective countries. The calculations were made based on the analysis of hundreds of DNA samples since the project launched in 2005, and have made some conclusions that will come as a complete shocker for many Egyptians.

According to the project's calculations, the majority of Egyptian DNA is comprised of 68% North African genes. However, Egyptians DNA makeup also shows that 3% originates from Southern Europe, 3% from Asia Minor, 3% from Eastern Africa, and 4% from the Jewish Diaspora. What is most staggering about the report is that nationals of the "Arab Republic of Egypt" are only 17% Arab.

Compared to the other three Arab countries on the list, Egypt comes in the third place, behind Kuwait whose nationals are 84% Arab, and the Lebanese who are 44% Arab. Egyptians are more Arab than Tunisians, who are only 4% Arab. One of the most baffling results is that Iran, which doesn't even consider themselves an Arab country, have 56% Arab DNA in their genetic makeup.

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As i predicted... a final nail in the coffin to those Afrocentrists still arguing modern Egyptians are predominantly Arabs or Europeans from mixture during Ptolemaic/Roman/Byzantine/Muslim Egypt. Whatever mixture occurred was small scale and had little impact; modern Egyptians are mostly native Egyptian.
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the lioness,
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quote:

This reference population is based on native Egyptians. As ancient populations first migrated from Africa, they passed first through northeast Africa to southwest Asia. The Northern Africa and Arabian components in Egypt are representative of that ancient migratory route, as well as later migrations from the Fertile Crescent back into Africa with the spread of agriculture over the past 10,000 years, and migrations in the seventh century with the spread of Islam from the Arabian Peninsula. The East African component likely reflects localized movement up the navigable Nile River, while the Southern Europe and Asia Minor components reflect the geographic and historical role of Egypt as a historical player in the economic and cultural growth across the Mediterranean region.

--National Geographic,
Reference Populations – Geno 2.0 Next Generation




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Geno 2.0: Next Generation uses 18 regional affiliations/labels and they are less broad, so more useful. The earlier Genographic Project used 9 broader regional affiliations/labels that led to some confusion and less accuracy.

1. Great Britain & Ireland
2. Western & Central Europe
3. Eastern Europe
4. Southern Europe
5. Scandinavia
6. Native America
7. Northern Africa
8. Southern Africa
9. Western & Central Africa
10. Eastern Africa
11. Asia Minor
12. Arabia
13. Central Asia
14. India
15. Eastern Asia
16. Southeast Asia & Oceania
17. Siberia
18. Jewish Diaspora

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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
As i predicted... a final nail in the coffin to those Afrocentrists still arguing modern Egyptians are predominantly Arabs or Europeans from mixture during Ptolemaic/Roman/Byzantine/Muslim Egypt. Whatever mixture occurred was small scale and had little impact; modern Egyptians are mostly native Egyptian.

You are not right in the head. It was eurocentrism claiming Egyptians as foreign people and a Eurasian intrusion. Now you try to flip and bend it into Afrocentrism being the one doing so. SMH
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
As i predicted... a final nail in the coffin to those Afrocentrists still arguing modern Egyptians are predominantly Arabs or Europeans from mixture during Ptolemaic/Roman/Byzantine/Muslim Egypt. Whatever mixture occurred was small scale and had little impact; modern Egyptians are mostly native Egyptian.

You are not right in the head. It was eurocentrism claiming Egyptians as foreign people and a Eurasian intrusion. Now you try to flip and bend it into Afrocentrism being the one doing so. SMH
?? My position for many years has been ancient Egyptians = modern Egyptians. I was arguing with Afrocentrists here from 2013-2015 who kept saying there was massive migrations or admixture in Egypt from the Hyksos, Persians, Greeks, Romans etc. Hence they kept spamming a Zakrzewski study to try to show biological discontinuity between early and late dynastic Egyptians; this is something I've debunked Afrocentrists on for past 4 years... have you even been reading my posts?

"The ancient Egyptians were neither 'black' nor 'white'; they were Egyptians, a population of largely indigenous origins and a high degree of continuity across time — including, it seems probable, continuity up to the present." - Howe, Stephen. (1998). Afrocentrism: Mythical Pasts and Imagined Homes. London: Verso. p. 132.

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^Your position was not out of Africa. Root Northern regions. lol Remember your essay? lol smh


My position was, from Africa. Root Southern regions.


"admixture in Egypt from the Hyksos, Persians, Greeks, Romans etc"


Well, a total of 27% non-African confirms this.

More so for Lower than for Upper Egypt. The irony is amusing.

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Ase
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Not to say that I couldn't believe this to be true but what does Nat Geo consider "North African" DNA? Where were people sampled? Is there any papers that would give specific insight on what it is they're talking about?
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
Not to say that I couldn't believe this to be true but what does Nat Geo consider "North African" DNA? Where were people sampled? Is there any papers that would give specific insight on what it is they're talking about?

From the looks of it, based on the estimated percentages both interpopulational, and of peripheral populations I can already tell they're clumping some near eastern and East African ancestry into "North African" ON TOP of the East African that's already probably being labeled as non-African, or ancient near eastern...
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Ase
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So there's no study...why was this posted???? [Confused]

If there's no study I'm out

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
So there's no study...why was this posted???? [Confused]

If there's no study I'm out

 -

source:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations-next-gen/

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Ase
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Okay but where's the study that reveals the data? Is there something that tells us where they sampled their Native Egyptians? The most important question for me is also how (genetically) they define a Jew, Arab, North African or someone from Asia Minor? What haplogroups, or genetic data are they using to make their conclusions. I want to repeat that I'm not saying it cannot be true simply because I'm asking this.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
Okay but where's the study that reveals the data? Is there something that tells us where they sampled their Native Egyptians? The most important question for me is also how (genetically) they define a Jew, Arab, North African or someone from Asia Minor? What haplogroups, or genetic data are they using to make their conclusions. I want to repeat that I'm not saying it cannot be true simply because I'm asking this.

The Genographic Project
The project is a mutliyear research initiative of the National Geographic Society. Genographic was launched in 2005 by geneticist Dr. Spencer Wells, and it is currently led by anthropologist Dr. Miguel Vilar. Vilar and a team of renowned scientists are using cutting-edge genetic and computational technologies to analyze historical patterns in DNA from participants around the world to better understand our shared genetic roots.

The Genographic Project is anonymous, nonmedical, and nonprofit.

The Genographic Project aims are: 1 – to gather and analyze research data in collaboration with indigenous and traditional peoples, 2 – to invite, encourage, and educate the public through participation in this real-time citizen-science project, while they learn about their own deep ancestry, and 3 – to support scientific research and community-led conservation and revitalization by investing a portion of the proceeds from the Genographic DNA kit sales into National Geographic Society grants.

With a new 2016 partnership with Helix, Genographic Project participants can take control of their genetic results and explore even more deeply what else is hidden in their DNA.


Geno 2.0 Next Generation Kit
Building on the science from the earlier phases of the Genographic Project, we have developed a cutting-edge new test kit, called Geno 2.0 Next Generation, that enables members of the public to participate in the Genographic Project while learning fascinating insights about their own ancestry. The Geno 2.0 Next Generation test examines a unique collection of nearly 300,000 DNA identifiers, called “markers,” that have been specifically selected to provide unprecedented ancestry-relevant information.

From just a simple saliva sample, we can isolate your unique DNA. We then run a comprehensive analysis to identify thousands of genetic markers on your mitochondrial DNA, which is passed down each generation from mother to child, to reveal your direct maternal deep ancestry. In the case of men, we will also examine markers on the Y chromosome, which is passed down from father to son, to reveal your direct paternal deep ancestry. In addition, for all participants, we analyze a collection of more than 250,000 other ancestry-informative markers from across your entire genome to reveal the regional affiliations of your ancestry, offering insights into your ancestors who are not on a direct maternal or paternal line.

For Scientists
Since 2005, the Genographic Project has worked with a global network of scientists. Today, through on-going research grants and shared access to the data, the Genographic Project continues to support a broad and global effort to study the genetic origins and diversity of humanity.

The Genographic Project uses cutting-edge genetic technology to decipher an age-old question: Where do we come from? Over the past several years, a team of international researchers has collaborated with more than 75,000 indigenous and traditional participants in the project. Coupled with our more than 745,000 public participants, these samples and results are yielding unprecedented insight into our shared migratory history.

The Genographic Project has a valuable collection of genetic and geographic data that can be accessed by researchers through an application process. We encourage qualified researchers to contact our Lead Scientist, Dr. Miguel Vilar (mvilar@ngs.org) for information on the Genographic database.

Genetic technology is progressing at an extraordinary pace. By harnessing the information and knowledge gleaned from data analysis in the first two phases of the Project, Genographic is now entering its next phase: Geno 2.0 Next Generation. In this new phase, next generation sequencing allows us to delve deeper to discover new genetic patterns and migratory paths. Scientists are encouraged to use the Genographic Project technology for their own research. Contact Dr. Miguel Vilar for details.

Through an interactive feature of the Geno 2.0 Next Generation participation experience, participants have the option to join in the search for new information about their own ancestry, read stories of migration from other participants, and add their own personal story to our collective understanding human history, all on our website. Working together, our global scientific team, the broader community of genetic genealogists and our own Genographic participants are charting a new direction in citizen science collaboration.

When participants in the project choose to make their results available for scientific research, those anonymous results become part of the database that can be accessed by approved researchers. Access to the DNA Analysis Repository (DAR) is available for scientists and genealogists through an online application. Contact Genographic Lead Scientist, Dr. Miguel Vilar

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Ase
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I don't mean to sound rude but I'm not really sure how this answers the question. What do they provide that explains what genetically is a "Jew" or a "North African" etc?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://www.cairoscene.com/Buzz/National-Geographic-s-DNA-Analysis-Proves-Egyptians-Are-Only-17-Arab


 -

NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC'S DNA ANALYSIS CONCLUDES THAT EGYPTIANS ARE ONLY 17% ARAB
National Geographic answers the age-old question of whether Egyptians are genetically Arab or North African? Can you guess how much of Egyptians genetic makeup is North African? The results will surprise you.


 -


There are some Egyptians who believe they are Arab and others who believe Egyptians are North African, but according to National Geographic's research, Egyptians cultural DNA origins are more complicated and varied than we think. National Geographic's Genographic Project created a graph showing the global genetic makeup of nationals in each of their respective countries. The calculations were made based on the analysis of hundreds of DNA samples since the project launched in 2005, and have made some conclusions that will come as a complete shocker for many Egyptians.

According to the project's calculations, the majority of Egyptian DNA is comprised of 68% North African genes. However, Egyptians DNA makeup also shows that 3% originates from Southern Europe, 3% from Asia Minor, 3% from Eastern Africa, and 4% from the Jewish Diaspora. What is most staggering about the report is that nationals of the "Arab Republic of Egypt" are only 17% Arab.

Compared to the other three Arab countries on the list, Egypt comes in the third place, behind Kuwait whose nationals are 84% Arab, and the Lebanese who are 44% Arab. Egyptians are more Arab than Tunisians, who are only 4% Arab. One of the most baffling results is that Iran, which doesn't even consider themselves an Arab country, have 56% Arab DNA in their genetic makeup.

source:

http://imgbox.com/L5IVhz1j

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wikipedia

quote:

DNA studies on modern Egyptians

DNA studies on modern Egyptians[edit]
Genetic analysis of modern Egyptians reveals that they have paternal lineages common to indigenous other Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations in Northeast and Northwest Africa (Maghreb and Horn of Africa), and to Middle Eastern peoples to a lesser extent—these lineages would have spread during the Neolithic and were maintained by the predynastic period.[8][9]

A study by Krings et al. (1999) on mitochondrial DNA clines along the Nile Valley found that a Eurasian cline runs from Northern Egypt to Southern Sudan and a Sub-Saharan cline from Southern Sudan to Northern Egypt.[10]

Luis et al. (2004) found that the male haplogroups in a sample of 147 Egyptians were E1b1b (36.1%, predominantly E-M78), J (32.0%), G (8.8%), T(8.2%), and R (7.5%). E1b1b and its subclades are characteristic of some Afro-Asiatic speakers and are believed to have originated in either the Middle East, North Africa, or the Horn of Africa. Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that E-M78, E1b1b predominant subclade in Egypt, originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in the study refers specifically to Egypt and Libya[11][12]

Other studies have shown that modern Egyptians have genetic affinities primarily with populations of Asia, North and Northeast Africa,[13][14][15][8] and to a lesser extent Middle Eastern and European populations.[16]

Some genetic studies done on modern Egyptians suggest a more distant relationship to Sub Saharan Africans.[17] and a closer link to other North Africans.[15] In addition, some studies suggest lesser ties with populations in the Middle East, as well as some groups in southern Europe.[8] A 2004 mtDNA study of upper Egyptians from Gurna found a genetic ancestral heritage to modern Northeast Africans, characterized by a high M1 haplotype frequency and a comparatively low L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency of 20.6%. Another study links Egyptians in general with people from modern Eritrea and Ethiopia.[14][18] Though there has been much debate of the origins of haplogroup M1 a recent 2007 study had concluded that M1 has West Asia origins not a Sub Saharan African origin[19] Origin A 2003 Y chromosome study was performed by Lucotte on modern Egyptians, with haplotypes V, XI, and IV being most common. Haplotype V is common in Berbers and has a low frequency outside North Africa. Haplotypes V, XI, and IV are all predominantly North African/Horn of African haplotypes, and they are far more dominant in Egyptians than in Middle Eastern or European groups.

Autosomal DNA[edit]
On 13 January 2012, an exhaustive genetic study of North Africa's human populations was published.[25] The researchers analyzed around 800,000 genetic markers, distributed throughout the entire genome in 125 North African individuals belonging to seven representative populations in the whole region (Saharawi, South Moroccans, North Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians Berbers, Libyans and Egyptians) and the information obtained was compared with the information from the neighbouring populations. The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component ("Maghrebi") which defines North Africans. The study identified mainly two distinct, opposite gradients of ancestry: an east-to-west increase of this native North African ancestry and an east-to-west decrease in likely Middle Eastern Arab ancestry.

The study also reveals that the genetic composition of North Africa's human populations is very complex and is the result of five distinct ancestries : a local component (Maghrebi) dating back thirteen thousand years and the varied genetic influence of neighbouring populations on North African groups during successive migrations (European, Middle Eastern, eastern and western Sub-Saharan Africa). According to the authors, the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of either the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, or descendants of the most recent Neolithic populations. The data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region. As well as this local component, North African populations were also observed to share genetic markers with all the neighbouring regions, as a result of more recent migrations, although these appear in different proportions. There is an influence from the Middle East, which becomes less marked as the distance from the Arabian Peninsula increases, similar proportions of European influence in all North African populations, and, in some populations (South Moroccans, Saharawi...), there are even individuals who present a large proportion of recent influence from the South of the Sahara in their genome.

Admixture analysis
Recent genetic analysis of North African populations have found that, despite the complex admixture genetic background, there is an autochthonous genomic component which is likely derived from "back-to-Africa" gene flow older than 12,000 years ago (ya) (i.e., prior to the Neolithic migrations). This local population substratum seems to represent a genetic discontinuity with the earliest modern human settlers of North Africa (those with the Aterian industry) given the estimated ancestry is younger than 40,000 years ago. North Morocco, Libya and Egypt carry high proportions of European and Middle Eastern ancestral components, whereas Tunisian Berbers and Saharawi are those populations with highest autochthonous North African component.[26]

Copts
According to Y-DNA analysis by Hassan et al. (2008), around 45% of Copts in Sudan carry the haplogroup J. The remainder mainly belong to the E1b1b clade (21%). Both paternal lineages are common among other local Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations (Beja, Ethiopians, Sudanese Arabs), as well as many Nubians.[27] E1b1b/E3b reaches its highest frequencies among Berbers and Somalis.[28] The next most common haplogroups borne by Copts are the Western European-linked R1b clade (15%), as well as the archaic African B lineage (15%).[27]

Maternally, Hassan (2009) found that Copts in Sudan exclusively carry various descendants of the macrohaplogroup N. This mtDNA clade is likewise closely associated with local Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations, including Berbers and Ethiopic peoples. Of the N derivatives borne by Copts, U6 is most frequent (28%), followed by the haplogroup T (17%).[29]

A 2015 study by Dobon et al. identified an ancestral autosomal component of West Eurasian origin that is common to many modern Afroasiatic-speaking populations in Northeast Africa. Known as the Coptic component, it peaks among Egyptian Copts who settled in Sudan over the past two centuries. Copts also formed a separated group in PCA, a close outlier to other Egyptians, Afro-Asiatic-speaking Northeast Africans and Middle East populations. The Coptic component evolved out of a main Northeast African and Middle Eastern ancestral component that is shared by other Egyptians and also found at high frequencies among other Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations in Northeast Africa (~70%). The scientists suggest that this points to a common origin for the general population of Egypt. They also associate the Coptic component with Ancient Egyptian ancestry, without the later Arabian influence that is present among other Egyptians



quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
I don't mean to sound rude but I'm not really sure how this answers the question. What do they provide that explains what genetically is a "Jew" or a "North African" etc?

E1b1b 36.1%

A 2004 mtDNA study of upper Egyptians from Gurna found a genetic ancestral heritage to modern Northeast Africans, characterized by a high M1 haplotype frequency and a comparatively low L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency of 20.6%.

There is a debate concerning geographical origins of Haplogroup M and its sibling haplogroup N. Both lineages are thought to have been the main surviving lineages involved in the out of Africa migration (or migrations) because all indigenous lineages found outside Africa belong to haplogroup M or haplogroup N. Yet to be conclusively determined is whether the mutations that define haplogroups M and N occurred in Africa before the exit from Africa or in Asia after the exit from Africa. Determining the origins of haplogroup M is further complicated by the fact that it is found in Africa and outside of Africa.

____________________________________


YDNA E1b1b is characteristically North African.

Mt DNA M1 is at high frequencies in the Ethiopia and Egypt

quote:

The distributions of U6 and M1 suggest that they are relevant components of North African populations, with the former being comparatively more represented among northwestern African people and the latter in northeastern Africans


quote:

In this article, we report an analysis of mtDNA di- versity in a sedentary Egyptian population: the Gurna population. We have studied the mtDNA of 34 individ- uals, using PCR, sequencing and RFLP analysis. With a frequency of 17.6% for M1 haplogroup, the Gurna population shows a high similarity to the Ethiopian population.

-- Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt
A. Stevanovitch1,∗2002


However this older Nat Geo page which is still up on their website (why?) lists Egyptians 65% "Mediterranean"

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations/


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Ish Geber
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quote:
E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
--Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1*

Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese:
Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With
Language, Geography, and History

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quote:
Introduction

After the dispersal of modern humans Out of Africa, around 50–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4 or earlier based on fossil evidence5, hominins with similar morphology to present-day humans appeared in the Western Eurasian fossil record around 45–40 ky cal BP, initiating the demographic transition from ancient human occupation [Neandertals] to modern human [Homo sapiens] expansion on to the continent1"

[...]

The haplogroup of PM1 falls within the U clade [Fig. 1B and Supplementary Table 3], which derived from the macro-haplogroup N possibly connected to the Out of Africa migration around 60–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4. In line with this, the Peştera cu Oase individual that lived on the current territory of Romania, albeit slightly earlier than PM1 [37–42 ky cal BP] also displays haplogroup N9.


—Hervella et al. 2016


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—Sarah Tishkoff et al.

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the lioness,
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^ so now you are posting stuff, unlike other posters, with no explanation why you are posting it .
We are always supposed to guess what your point is?
People get tired of that and just ignore most of your posts

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ so now you are posting stuff, unlike other posters, with no explanation why you are posting it .
We are always supposed to guess what your point is?
People get tired of that and just ignore most of your posts

Are you telling me you can read, but can't comprehend? Are you really telling me you're that dumb? lol


PS: What makes you to spokesman for everybody?

The even funnier part is that you yourself do what you accuse others of doing. That is the persistence in you.

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HeartofAfrica
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What came of this anyways?

--------------------
"Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face"

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
What came of this anyways?

A problem is this term "North African"

there are at least 5 different significant variations of what land falls into that

and secondly what genetically gets labeled as "North African"

I think the term shouldn't be used at all

an improvement would to be use only these:

Maghrebian

Modern Egyptian

Ancient Egyptian

Sahel

(although Sahel is not that precise)

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
What came of this anyways?

A problem is this term "North African"

there are at least 5 different significant variations of what land falls into that

and secondly what genetically gets labeled as "North African"

I think the term shouldn't be used at all

Exactly, it's confusing and assumes a lot.

What does "North African" even entail or even mean genetically, parentally, haplogroup wise?

How does it break down? Since "North African" encompasses many ethnic groups, some that relate more to each other and others that do not.

Which groups did they test in reference to Modern Egyptians? And which Egyptians did they test besides those in Gurna? Especially if they used previously stored genetic records. Again, it's such an odd umbrella term that may or may not exclude the Tubu people. But does it include Haratin? Or Zenata?.

Where is the Fulani in the equation? Even the mixed and non-mixed people's of the Siwa Oasis for that matter. Whom affiliate closely with the Fulani (who also isn't just one singular group).


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22146064/
 -

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21082907/
 -

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00493.x
 -


I mean even under the bolded part you highlighted here:

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Luis et al. (2004) found that the male haplogroups in a sample of 147 Egyptians were E1b1b (36.1%, predominantly E-M78), J (32.0%), G (8.8%), T(8.2%), and R (7.5%). E1b1b and its subclades are characteristic of some Afro-Asiatic speakers and are believed to have originated in either the Middle East, North Africa, or the Horn of Africa. Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that E-M78, E1b1b predominant subclade in Egypt, originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in the study refers specifically to Egypt and Libya[11][12]

There's caution as to the origin. But of course it would go on to utilize other studies to substantiate, their point to a certain degree, in terms of regional locations.

Still i get the feelings that (and I've encountered it) "North African" is just another purposefully, used designation to continue to mean non "Sub-Saharan" and separate. Then once again later on, from Upper Egypt to the Horn.

Not just to show that Modern Egyptians (whoever was chosen) may or may not have or be more Greek or Arab.

Hence, why we didn't get a full breakdown like you suggested with your examples.

--------------------
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 -

 -

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this is outdated informations. We do know now that ancient and modern egyptians are mostly middle eastern genetically with small berber and ssa influences.

 -

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what is the source of that table?

As pertaining to this thread modern Egyptians, your chart says they are 60% Levantine. That probably corresponds to Hap J paternally and adding H mitochondrial haplogroups I am guessing

Also it say IRN, that is Western Iran they say 17.6 %

How can they not have Arabia on that chart? Are the putting that in with Levant?

Bekeda 2013 and Luis 2004 both list E-M78 at around 20% , how is that going to disappear?

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As for the Ancient Egyptians on that chart If you are using Abusir El-Meleq data none of it is YDNA except for 3 individuals and one of those was hap E. The others were all mitochondrial results only and mainly late period only a few older
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
what is the source of that table?

As pertaining to this thread modern Egyptians, your chart says they are 60% Levantine. That probably corresponds to Hap J paternally and adding H mitochondrial haplogroups I am guessing

Also it say IRN, that is Western Iran they say 17.6 %

How can they not have Arabia on that chrt? Are the putting that in with Levant?

That's the g25 vahaduo tool of Davidsky and these are neolithic components do not interpret it as modern ethnicities. Scoring 60% levant_PPNC doesn't mean you're 60% "levantine" because modern levantines also have other components. Moreover it has nothing to do with haplogroups you can be 99% Levant_PPNC and still end up with a west european or khoisan haplogroup lol

and arabs are also composed of these components but in different proportions

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quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:
this is outdated informations. We do know now that ancient and modern egyptians are mostly middle eastern genetically with small berber and ssa influences.

 -

Yeah, that's not true.

Middle Eastern by what credible source? Besides Davidsky, using what data set?

This must be using that bunk and contradicting Abusir El-Meleq data set from 2017. I really hope not, because that's just silly.



http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010061;p=1

https://osf.io/ecwf3/

 -

--------------------
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 -

quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
what is the source of that table?

As pertaining to this thread modern Egyptians, your chart says they are 60% Levantine. That probably corresponds to Hap J paternally and adding H mitochondrial haplogroups I am guessing

Also it say IRN, that is Western Iran they say 17.6 %

How can they not have Arabia on that chrt? Are the putting that in with Levant?

That's the g25 vahaduo tool of Davidsky and these are neolithic components do not interpret it as modern ethnicities. Scoring 60% levant_PPNC doesn't mean you're 60% "levantine" because modern levantines also have other components. Moreover it has nothing to do with haplogroups you can be 99% Levant_PPNC and still end up with a west european or khoisan haplogroup lol

and arabs are also composed of these components but in different proportions

So given you can be 99% Levant_PPNC and still end up with a west european or khoisan haplogroup how does the chart you posted relate to this:
 -

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quote:
Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:
this is outdated informations. We do know now that ancient and modern egyptians are mostly middle eastern genetically with small berber and ssa influences.

 -

Yeah, that's not true.

Middle Eastern by what creditable source? Besides Davidsky, using what data set?

This must be using that bunk and contradicting Abusir El-Meleq data set from 2017. I really hope not, because that's just silly.



http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010061;p=1

https://osf.io/ecwf3/

 -

it's based on some abusir samples and two ancient egyptians burried in Lebanon ... I mean it can't be a coincidence that even modern egyptians share the same genetic profile as these samples. Also it's the only genetic data we have about them so how can you say that it's not true ?
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quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:
quote:
Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:
this is outdated informations. We do know now that ancient and modern egyptians are mostly middle eastern genetically with small berber and ssa influences.

 -

Yeah, that's not true.

Middle Eastern by what creditable source? Besides Davidsky, using what data set?

This must be using that bunk and contradicting Abusir El-Meleq data set from 2017. I really hope not, because that's just silly.



http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010061;p=1

https://osf.io/ecwf3/

 -

it's based on some abusir samples and two ancient egyptians burried in Lebanon ... I mean it can't be a coincidence that even modern egyptians share the same genetic profile as these samples. Also it's the only genetic data we have about them so how can you say that it's not true ?
Because per the researchers of the Abusir site. In their own words from the study and put under further review by field colleagues (as I linked):

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Though citing other geneticists this figure limits Schu's modern Egypt sampling to the north only.  -
The hi-lited text from the discussion section is a four pronged CYA for expected objections.
I can't recall the media or blogs offering it.
It's Schuenemann et al's shield against them originating reader implied or even their own explicit claims.

This would be like using a burial simple or data set from Iceland, using the another burial data set from a place that was met with invasion or migration from people from Iceland in Africa and claiming that all Africans in that region are European.


You can't combine obvious similar groups, that clearly aren't directly related to the Egyptians or there are major caveats to their origin and utilize another simple, that's clearly from the Levant region ala Lebanon. To assume that Modern or Ancient Egyptians were non-African or even Eurasian for that matter.


The Africanity of Ancient Egypt: Huggins Lectures by Christopher Ehret:

(He talks about the Abusir sample, from 2017)

https://youtu.be/S_DD4nmyoss?t=1211

--------------------------------------
You are dabbling in the antithesis of the scientific method. You can't force a Negative with a Positive to create a Positive result. Might as well, come out and state you have an agenda, despite the evidence pointing to origins within Africa.

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:


 - Yeah, that's not true.

it's based on some abusir samples and two ancient egyptians burried in Lebanon

What ancient Egyptians buried in Lebanon ?
Do you have a source? what is the age of the remains?

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quote:
Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:
quote:
Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:
this is outdated informations. We do know now that ancient and modern egyptians are mostly middle eastern genetically with small berber and ssa influences.

 -

Yeah, that's not true.

Middle Eastern by what creditable source? Besides Davidsky, using what data set?

This must be using that bunk and contradicting Abusir El-Meleq data set from 2017. I really hope not, because that's just silly.



http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010061;p=1

https://osf.io/ecwf3/

 -

it's based on some abusir samples and two ancient egyptians burried in Lebanon ... I mean it can't be a coincidence that even modern egyptians share the same genetic profile as these samples. Also it's the only genetic data we have about them so how can you say that it's not true ?
Because per the researchers of the Abusir set own words from the study and further peer review from field colleagues (as I linked):

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Though citing other geneticists this figure limits Schu's modern Egypt sampling to the north only.  -
The hi-lited text from the discussion section is a four pronged CYA for expected objections.
I can't recall the media or blogs offering it.
It's Schuenemann et al's shield against them originating reader implied or even their own explicit claims.

This would be like using a burial simple or data set from Iceland, using the another burial data set from a place that was met with invasion or migration from people from Iceland in Africa and claiming that all Africans in that region are European.


You can't combine obvious similar groups, that clearly aren't directly related to the Egyptians or there are major caveats to their origin and utilize another simple, that's clearly from the Levant region ala Lebanon. To assume that Modern or Ancient Egyptians were non-African or even Eurasian for that matter.


The Africanity of Ancient Egypt: Huggins Lectures by Christopher Ehret:

(He talks about the Abusir sample, from 2017)

https://youtu.be/S_DD4nmyoss?t=1211

--------------------------------------
You are dabbling in the antithesis of the scientific method. You can't force a Negative with a Positive to create a Positive result. Might as well, come out and state you have an agenda, despite the evidence pointing to origins within Africa.

Yes I was aware of this but it doesn't necessarily means that these samples are not egyptian or that they are foreigners. You have no evidence about this. Also what a coincidence that egyptians share the same genetic profile as these samples ...but ok let's wait for some old empire dna results from upper egypt.

Also you avoided the fact that two of these samples were not from abusir. Moreover anthropological studies all points to egyptians being caucasoid. Even old empire egyptians portrayed themselves similar to modern egyptians.

"africanity" means absolutely nothing all civilizations in Africa are african and not all africans are related to each other. It's not because you have the same level of melanin in your skin that you can claim every civilization you want it doesn't work like that.

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He's talking about the Maronite mummies site more than likely. I know of nothing else.


https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0717-73562000000100017

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:

Yes I was aware of this but it doesn't necessarily means that these samples are not egyptian or that they are foreigners. You have no evidence about this. Also what a coincidence that egyptians share the same genetic profile as these samples ...but ok let's wait for some old empire dna results from upper egypt.

Also you avoided the fact that two of these samples were not from abusir. Moreover anthropological studies all points to egyptians being caucasoid. Even old empire egyptians portrayed themselves similar to modern egyptians.

Yet here you are pushing dna results as fact. I bet you didn't even read the cross-examination of the sample you used in that result.

Where those in the field made it clear that making assumptions like you did is fundamentally an error.

Also, whose talking about melanin? This more about ancestry, continuity, and parental genetic heritage. And those from Eurasia and the Levant don't have that direct connection. Like you seem to want to claim, by making them non-African or assuming that Africans, don't relate to each other more than you believe. Despite the contrary being more true (As I already provided, with those North Africa studies).

Especially along the Nile Valley, after the collapse of the Green Saharan.

Like I said there's more evidence to support an African claim under review than anything else, especially in this generation.

------------------------------------

These are studies from that same year, with samples from mummies within known areas in Egypt. With concrete evidence of their origins as Egyptians.

 -

https://www.docdroid.net/6a7GXnr/the-kinship-of-two-12th-dynasty-mummies-revealed-by-ancient-dna-sequencing-drosou-et-al-2017-pdf


I.E From an actual Dynastic period

Not from Lebanon, or from sets in Egypt. Where origin in regard to relation is dubious...all of this was dealt with in 2018.

-------------------------------------

Fact of the matter is they were, more African than anything else.


https://www.academia.edu/470411/Dental_indicators_of_heath_and_stress_in_early_Egyptian_agriculturalists_Difficult_transition_and_gradual_recovery

 -


https://www.academia.edu/6364579/An_Examination_of_Nubian_and_Egyptian_Biological_Distance_Support_for_Biological_Diffusion_or_In_Situ_Development

 -

You can confirm that truth on this very forum, you signed up for. That gives it more credence.

A new analysis interpreting Nilotic relationships and peopling of the Nile Valley – K Godde July 2018

quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:
"africanity" means absolutely nothing all civilizations in Africa are african and not all africans are related to each other. It's not because you have the same level of melanin in your skin that you can claim every civilization you want it doesn't work like that.

Also, yes African means African. If you actually watched the video you'd understand, what it specifically means.

Which includes all of Africa's natural diversity. Or do these look like Eurasians to you?

 -

 -

--------------------
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quote:
Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:
quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:

Yes I was aware of this but it doesn't necessarily means that these samples are not egyptian or that they are foreigners. You have no evidence about this. Also what a coincidence that egyptians share the same genetic profile as these samples ...but ok let's wait for some old empire dna results from upper egypt.

Also you avoided the fact that two of these samples were not from abusir. Moreover anthropological studies all points to egyptians being caucasoid. Even old empire egyptians portrayed themselves similar to modern egyptians.

"africanity" means absolutely nothing all civilizations in Africa are african and not all africans are related to each other. It's not because you have the same level of melanin in your skin that you can claim every civilization you want it doesn't work like that.

Yet here you are pushing dna results as fact. Despite others in the field making it clear, that it's not viable and dubious to make such destrict conclusions.


Also whose talking about melanin? It's all about ancestry, continuity, and parental genetic heritage. And those from Eurasia and the Levant don't have that direct connection. Like you seem to want to claim, by making them non-African or assuming that Africans, don't relate to each other more than you believe. Despite that being true (As I already provided, with those North Africa studies).

Especially along the Nile Valley, after the collapse of the Green Saharan.

Like I said there's more evidence to support an African claim under review than anything else, this generation.

------------------------------------

These are studies from that same year, with samples from mummies within known areas in Egypt. With concrete evidence of their origins as Egyptians.



https://www.docdroid.net/6a7GXnr/the-kinship-of-two-12th-dynasty-mummies-revealed-by-ancient-dna-sequencing-drosou-et-al-2017-pdf


I.E From an actual Dynastic period

Not from Lebanon, or from sets in Egypt. Where origin in regard to relation is dubious...all of this was dealt with in 2018.

-------------------------------------

Fact of the matter is they were, more African than anything else.


https://www.academia.edu/470411/Dental_indicators_of_heath_and_stress_in_early_Egyptian_agriculturalists_Difficult_transition_and_gradual_recovery


https://www.academia.edu/6364579/An_Examination_of_Nubian_and_Egyptian_Biological_Distance_Support_for_Biological_Diffusion_or_In_Situ_Development


[/QB]

Well for your information haplogroup M1a1 is still found in north africa and is the product of an eurasian migration : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1945034/

Also why do you deny all the other haplogroups we found among the mummies like J1, E1b1b and R1b ?

Moreover your informations about badarians is outdated :

"There is a badarian affiliation to North africans, not sub-saharan samples." (Irish & Konigsberg;2007).

"the jebel Sahaba sample show closest phenetic affinity contemporary sub-saharan Africans." (Holliday; 2013) and " Jebel Sahaba and kerma were significantly different from the el-badari and Hierakonpolis results." (Stock et al; 2011)


" Badari (has) no biological affinities with nubian groups" (Godde; 2009b)

"Badarian crania classified well with the Gizeh (E series) sample" (Keita; 1990) ---> " Giza (E series) clustered with a series of European Neolithic groups and with North africa" (Brace; 1993)

"All of these features are also present in Europeans and West Asians to some degree but are uncommon in Sub-saharan peoples. Craniometric indicators appear to support these results, and European-like discrete traits, such as alveolar orthognathism, dolichocephaly, rhomboid orbits, narrow nasal aperture, and nasal sill, are prevalent" "...they appear distinct from post-Pleistocene sub-saharan Africans." (J.D. Irish; 2000)

"...the predynastic sample from Upper Egypt lies very close to the West Eurasian group...their closest relatives appear to be western Eurasians and coastal North Africans....Notice that the pooled group of Sub-Saharan Africans from the southern ,central, and western regions of the continent does not resemble Egyptians at all : this group is plotted very distant from both ancient egyptian samples. Similar conclusions are reached by Howells (1989, 1995) and Froment (1992, 1994)." (Brace; 1993)


"Evidence of Neolithic migration from the Near East is supported by the introduction of domestic animals like cows, sheep and goats to North africa." (Henn et al; 2012)


and this is just some examples. Also cherrypicking some pictures from the 18th dynasty isn't going to help you because we know since a long time that egyptians interacted with nubians and that weddings between them were sometimes common ...good luck to find any old empire frescoe that represent black people.

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quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:
...good luck to find any old empire frescoe that represent black people.

Boy was this transparent, why aren't you on euronut boards?

In any case...can't continue to ignore reality. I've provided that reality to you, you can only delude yourself for so long.

Don't get hang up on the babari affiliation, that's not a smoking gun. Nor does it help you.

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
^Most of what you’ve posted was already debunked. lol
This just shows how illogical your reasoning is.

quote:
Thus, not only did Nubia have a prominent role in the origin of Ancient Egypt, it was also a key area for the origin of the entire African pastoral tradition.
~Gatto M. 2009.

The Nubian Pastoral Culture as Link between Egypt and Africa: A View from the Archaeological Record
Egypt in its African Context: BAR S2204- Archaeopress. 21-29


quote:
Moreover, although the Nubian and Egyptian samples formed one well-distributed group, the Egyptian samples clustered in the upper left region, while the Nubians concentrated in the lower right of the plot. One line can be drawn that would separate the closely dispersed Egyptians and Nubians. The predynastic Egyptian samples clustered together (Badari and Naqada), while Gizeh most closely groups with the Lisht sample.
~Godde K.

An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?
Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.


quote:
More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002).
~AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007), Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528
Introduction to Research at Naqada Region

quote:
“The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002)
~D. Usai, S. Salvatori, T. Jakob & R. David
The Al Khiday Cemetery in Central Sudan and its “Classic/Late Meroitic” Period Graves
Journal of African Archaeology, Volume 12 (2), 2014, pages 183-204, DOI 10.3213/2191-5784-10254


quote:

Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples

~T. W. Holliday* 2013
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oa.2315/abstract

quote:
"As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or "Negroid") groups

[...]

This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK.


~Sonia R. Zakrzewski. (2007). Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501-509)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20569/abstract


quote:

 -
Figure 1: Images of North African prehistoric rock and cave paintings.
From (a, b) Swimmer’s Cave (Wadi Sura, southern Egypt), (c) the Ennedi massif (northeastern Chad) and (d) Zolat el Hammad, Wadi Howar (northern Sudan).


Paleoclimate and archaeological evidence tells us that, 11,000-5,000 years ago, the Earth's slow orbital 'wobble' transformed today's Sahara desert to a land covered with vegetation and lakes.



http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/green-sahara-african-humid-periods-paced-by-82884405


quote:
"They clearly show that, despite the presence of domesticates, fish predominate in the animal bone assemblages. In this sense, there is continuity with the earlier Holocene occupation from the Fayum, starting ca. 7350 BC. Domesticated plants and animals appear first from approximately 5400 BC. The earliest possible evidence for domesticates in Egypt are the very controversial domesticated cattle from the 9th/8th millennium BC in the Nabta Playa-Bir Kiseiba area."
~Veerle Linseele et al.
PLoS One. 2014; 9(10): e108517.
Published online 2014 Oct 13. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0108517
PMCID: PMC4195595
New Archaeozoological Data from the Fayum “Neolithic” with a Critical Assessment of the Evidence for Early Stock Keeping in Egypt

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4195595/


 -

This whole quote might help you rethink your purposed "check mate"...

Seems like you reside in the same pit as Nassa indeed.

Start connecting the dots...

quote:
Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22146064/
 -

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21082907/
 -

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00493.x

 -

Plus, it's funny that you dismiss the 18th period pictures. But how much further back do you want to dismiss native origins? with the explaination that "Nubian" married Egyptians, with Egyptians not being Africans.

The study from those 2017 mummies from the 12th dynastic period doesn't help your case.

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Badarian sample...whose right, who's wrong...

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/191239689.pdf

(2007)

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Morphological and genetic research seems to provide further support for the topic. According to Grigson (1991, 2000) Egyptian cattle of the 4th millennium BC were morphologically distinct from Eurasian cattle (Bos taurus) and Zebu (Bos indicus), meaning that African cattle may have been domesticated from the local wild […]

Genetic studies indicate that the wild cattle in Eurasia and in Africa diverged 22,000years ago and suggest an autochthonous domestication for the latter (Blench and MacDonald 2000; Bradly et al. 1996; Caramelli 2006). Linguistic research also provides help in supporting the CPE’s theory. The detailed work done by Ehret (2006) on linguistic stratigraphies in North-eastern Africa revealed how terms connected with cattle herding are older than those associated with agriculture, chronologically placing their origin at the beginning of the Holocene. […]

To sum up, Nubia is Egypt’s African ancestor. What linked Ancient Egypt to the rest of the North African cultures is this strong tie with the Nubian pastoral nomadic lifestyle, the same pastoral background commonly shared by most of the ancient Saharan and modern sub-Saharan societies. Thus, not only did Nubia have a prominent role in the origin of Ancient Egypt, it was also a key area for the origin of the entire African pastoral tradition.


~Gatto M. 2009.

The Nubian Pastoral Culture as Link between Egypt and Africa: A View from the Archaeological Record

Egypt in its African Context: BAR S2204- Archaeopress. 21-29

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

You have some explaining to do.

 -

quote:
There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.

In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas [...]

Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data.

In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation.

This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography"

--Kathryn A. Bard (STEPHEN E. THOMPSON Egyptians, physical anthropology of Physical anthropology)

https://www.academia.edu/1924147/Kathryn_A._Bard_The_Encyclopedia_of_of_the_Archaeology_of_Ancient_Egypt


quote:
"As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or "Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967). Similarly, the study of dental nonmetric traits has suggested that the Badarian population is at the centroid of Egyptian dental samples (Irish, 2006), thereby suggesting similarity and hence continuity across Egyptian time periods. From the central location of the Badarian samples in Figure 2, the current study finds the Badarian to be relatively morphologically close to the centroid of all the Egyptian samples. The Badarian have been shown to exhibit greatest morphological similarity with the temporally successive EPD (Table 5). Finally, the biological distinctiveness of the Badarian from other Egyptian samples has also been demonstrated (Tables 6 and 7).


These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a \Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.

This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment."

--Sonia R. Zakrzewski. (2007). Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501-509)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20569/abstract


quote:

"Ancient Egypt belongs to a language group known as 'Afroasiatic' (formerly called Hamito-Semitic) and its closest relatives are other north-east African languages from Somalia to Chad. Egypt's cultural features, both material and ideological and particularly in the earliest phases, show clear connections with that same broad area. In sum, ancient Egypt was an African culture, developed by African peoples, who had wide ranging contacts in north Africa and western Asia."

(p. 10)

"The ancient Egyptians were not 'white' in any European sense, nor were they 'Caucasian'... we can say that the earliest population of ancient Egypt included African people from the upper Nile, African people from the regions of the Sahara and modern Libya, and smaller numbers of people who had come from south-western Asia and perhaps the Arabian penisula."

--Robert Morkot (2005). The Egyptians: An Introduction. pp. 12-13 [/QB]
Is Hamilcar second banned account named Nassbean? because boy is it faimilar.

quote:
Originally posted by Ase:
quote:
Originally posted by Nassbean:
quote:

We are claiming it as Black....because it is, not because of what we went through.
Phenotypically the founding culture closely resembled Nubians, Ethiopians--other Black people as far as the concept of Black/race has been concerned when practiced by western globalists.

Which source are you talking about ? Because i didn't find your quote who seems to be incorrect.
The one that talks about large scale immigration? YOUR source. That's where I got the quote! I'm not going to continue this play-stupid routine. Anyone reading this thread can click the link and search the part I quoted. You're either extremely lazy or a very boring troll.


quote:
Also I posted several statues from the old kingdom none of them look black and if egyptians were black and non-levantines before hyksos came how did they learn agriculture ???
Still haven't read the database, huh?

quote:
Yeah those intermarriages are well known but the elite represented not even 1% of the population and they were also nubian princesses who were married to some pharaohs...not just levantines.

 -

Nubians were always part of the same culture and were very phenotypically similar to upper Egyptians, diverging from them in the predynastic. Near Easterners and Lower Egyptians weren't. Marriage between a Nubian and Upper Egyptian is like two western Europeans marrying. They were people of different nationality with similar phenotype and culture.


quote:
So according to your childish way of thinking egyptians were all black like bantus but just next to them in the levant people were all white skinned yeah sure seems natural and logical.

 -

I didn't say they were "Black like Bantus." I said they were Black like Nubians and Ethiopians while the northern peoples of Egypt looked closer to people in the Levant.


quote:
Also what you're saying doesn't make sense because modern egyptians from the delta scored high amount of a North african component and not west asian or middle eastern ( I can post some examples if needed)
We're arguing race not genetics here. It's possible for people to be genetically related, while having phenotypic differences. A Negrito can as the name implies, get associated with Blacks and be genetically closer to nearby (non-black) Asians. Northern Africa has several phenotypes indigenous to the area, even if they are all genetically related when picking apart their genes. Delta populations descended from Lower Egyptians and also had a considerable flow of Near Eastern ancestry.

My point was that Copts descended from people whose phenotypes described in racial terms were at best along the fringes of anything that looked Black in the Old Kingdom and predynastic. They then intermarried with Near Easterners coming into the delta who mostly wouldn't have looked Black at all. It doesn't mean they aren't related to more Ethiopian looking Blacks in northern Africa. It's just that such a relationship is seen more easily through genetics, not phenotype. People who are of the same race don't have to be closely related and it is possible to be more closely related to someone of a different race than a person is to many of the people they are racially ascribed. Kind of why the whole idea of race realism as a biological reality rooted in genetics is ....well, stupid.


quote:
There is not one evidence that ancient egyptians were black like nilotes or bantus/afram. Period.


 -

I said ancient Egyptians were Black like Nubians and Ethiopians, I never said anything about all black people looking the same, let alone that the Egyptians looked like exactly like a West African.


quote:

Also I talked about copts because they didn't mix with the muslim invaders and were very endogamous ( so they are even more preserved than muslim egyptians but just a bit)

Didn't say they mixed with Muslim invaders. I said they descended from lower Egyptians whose phenotypes more closely resembled the Near East, and THEN those Lower Egyptians mixed with Near Easterners flowing into the delta by the New Kingdom. The Copts came from the delta, they would've mixed with non blacks from the Near East before any other group given the circumstance. But that mixing would've been pre-Islamic.



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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:


 - Yeah, that's not true.

it's based on some abusir samples and two ancient egyptians burried in Lebanon

What ancient Egyptians buried in Lebanon ?
Do you have a source? what is the age of the remains?

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Maronite mummies might not be Egyptian, but he's saying they are...lol

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These pictures can go much further back...

- Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom...etc

- 6th, 11th, 12th, 16th, 18th...etc


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 -

 -

 -

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 -


 -


 -


 -


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 -


 -


 -


 -

This isn't just about intermarriage with purposed alien groups, in terms of "Nubian" and Egyptian. All the art displays the populace and it wasn't that hard to find them. Just gotta put in the dynastic period and keyword art/wall/tomb.

And no, before you assume. I didn't put in the word "Black" or "Brown", all these images came up naturally. Not "cherry picked" that is what people looked like from the artistic hands of an Egyptian.

(I'll take their representation as fact, since the Egyptians were pretty consistent with their depictions throughout the dynastic periods.)

Which showcased a civilization along the Nile of diverse but similar (some different) African ethnic groups. Who knew what color certain people were in relation to each other.


Or

Someone needs to show me in ancient Eurasian society and the Levant, the continuity between them and the Nile. Aside from Egyptian rule and influence.

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please stay on topic, modern Egyptians
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It all correlates.

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This is no different than Maghrebis on Ancestry.com scoring around 70% North African. The North African sample clearly was not broken down more.
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quote:
Originally posted by Hamilcar:

this is outdated informations. We do know now that ancient and modern egyptians are mostly middle eastern genetically with small berber and ssa influences.

 -

And what is the basis of this claim and the table above??-- the Late Period Abusir el-Malek mummies?! LOL

Until one actually does widescale genetic data on the majority of mummies from all periods of the dynastic era especially from before the Late Period, I won't be holding my breath any time soon when it comes to that claim of predominantly "Middle Eastern" especially since so-called Middle-Easterners themselves carry African ancestry! [Embarrassed]

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

http://www.cairoscene.com/Buzz/National-Geographic-s-DNA-Analysis-Proves-Egyptians-Are-Only-17-Arab


 -

NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC'S DNA ANALYSIS CONCLUDES THAT EGYPTIANS ARE ONLY 17% ARAB
National Geographic answers the age-old question of whether Egyptians are genetically Arab or North African? Can you guess how much of Egyptians genetic makeup is North African? The results will surprise you.


 -


There are some Egyptians who believe they are Arab and others who believe Egyptians are North African, but according to National Geographic's research, Egyptians cultural DNA origins are more complicated and varied than we think. National Geographic's Genographic Project created a graph showing the global genetic makeup of nationals in each of their respective countries. The calculations were made based on the analysis of hundreds of DNA samples since the project launched in 2005, and have made some conclusions that will come as a complete shocker for many Egyptians.

According to the project's calculations, the majority of Egyptian DNA is comprised of 68% North African genes. However, Egyptians DNA makeup also shows that 3% originates from Southern Europe, 3% from Asia Minor, 3% from Eastern Africa, and 4% from the Jewish Diaspora. What is most staggering about the report is that nationals of the "Arab Republic of Egypt" are only 17% Arab.

Compared to the other three Arab countries on the list, Egypt comes in the third place, behind Kuwait whose nationals are 84% Arab, and the Lebanese who are 44% Arab. Egyptians are more Arab than Tunisians, who are only 4% Arab. One of the most baffling results is that Iran, which doesn't even consider themselves an Arab country, have 56% Arab DNA in their genetic makeup.

One may ask what exactly is the nature of this "North African" ancestry as opposed to "Sub-Saharan"??

For example, here are Y-DNA haplogroups in Egypt continuous with Sub-Sahara:

 -

 -

--------------------
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the lioness,
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 -

So according to this in modern Egyptian you add up all these paternal E lineages you get about 40%

(I disregard the oasis populations they represent well under 1% of the Egyptian population)

_____________________________________


this Phd thesis on modern Egyptian mitochondrial DNA concludes 25% African
So if we add that to the aforementioned YDNA you get about 65% African uniparentally
the mtDNA that is African mainly L3, L2 and M1.
So this corresponds to the OP

http://irep.ntu.ac.uk/id/eprint/357/1/198606_Rania%20Gomaa_PhD%20Thesis.pdf


ANALYSIS OF MITOCHONDRIAL DNA
VARIATION IN THE EGYPTIAN POPULATION
AND ITS IMPLICATIONS FOR FORENSIC DNA
ANALYSIS
RANIA GOMAA
A thesis submitted in partial fulfilment of the requirements of
Nottingham Trent University for the degree of Doctor of
Philosophy
July 2010


haplogroup M1 was found in the
Egyptian population at a frequency of 7.6%.
Haplogroups H, HV, and R0 occurred at similar frequencies in the Egyptians and
Tunisians with values of 25% and 27%, respectively, while higher values were reported
in Algerians and Moroccans, 34% and 33.7%, respectively. The highest frequency of
the European mitochondrial haplogroup T (11.5%) was reported in the Egyptian
population and the lowest was reported in Moroccans (3.8%). Both Moroccans and
Egyptians showed high frequencies of the European haplogroup U (excluding the
subclade U6) with values of 8.5% and 8.2%, respectively...
haplogroup M1 was found in the
Egyptian population at a frequency of 7.6%
...
Among African specific haplogroups, L0 was only reported in the Egyptians and Tunisians at
frequencies of 2% and 0.9%, respectively. Haplogroup L1 was less represented in the
Egyptian population (2.2%) compared to the other North African groups which had a
low of 6.3% in Tunisians and a high of 9.4% in Moroccans. Haplogroup L2 was
reported at a much lower frequency in the Egyptian population (5.6%) compared to the
frequency reported in Tunisians (14.4%). Similarly, haplogroup L3 was reported in
12.5% of the Egyptian population
which is lower than values reported in Tunisians and
Algerians (18% and 14.9%, respectively). Overall, the African L haplogroups were less
represented in the Egyptian population compared to the other North Africans...
the mitochondrial haplogroup
T was the most frequently reported (13.8%) in the present study.
In the present study,
haplogroup H accounted for 12.3% of the Egyptian lineages which is very similar to the
average reported in Saudi Arabia (13%) (Achilli et al. 2004; Abu-Amero et al. 2007).
The N derived mitochondrial haplogroups (N1a, N1b, N1e, W, X, and I) were found in
a total of 8.1% of the Egyptian haplotypes...
The next common African haplogroup was L2 with a frequency of 7.7%, all of which
belonged to L2a subclade. ..
Haplogroup L1 was only found in 1.9% of the Egyptian population, which is a very low
frequency compared to North West Africa where frequencies of 10% , 10.9% and
23.4% were reported in Moroccans, Tunisians, and Mauritanians, respectively (Rando
et al. 1998; Plaza et al. 2003; Turchi et al. 2009). All the reported L1 lineages in the
present study were L1b types. Such a low frequency of L1 in Egypt compared to the
North West African populations supports the early assumption that L1 haplogroup
originated in West Africa and gave rise to subclade L1b around 30,000 years ago which
then diffused into North Africa through the coastal pathway (Salas et al. 2002)
it was found that present day Egyptians
were the closest African population to the Middle East and Europe with an overall
62.5% European, 25% African, and 12.5% Asian mitochondrial lineages.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
One may ask what exactly is the nature of this "North African" ancestry as opposed to "Sub-Saharan"??

For example, here are Y-DNA haplogroups in Egypt continuous with Sub-Sahara:


that is a separate issue. Look at my previous post in terms of African vs. Arab as per Modern Egyptians.
By this analysis one could conclude they are 65+ African uniparentally with the YDNA carrying more of the African ancestry than the mtDNA
Thus not primarily Arab
But are about 30% YDNA J1/J2 according to journal articles on the chart. That could be regarded as Arabian/Levantine
The chart at the top could be more current though. They say 17% Arab and if you looked at various small
slices of the pie there are several other haplogroups at smaller percentages corresponding to hap T and several other groups that add up.

A separate topic could be "Is there such thing as African DNA that is Norther African?"
Somebody might say E-M81 and U6
But the point of the OP articles is that modern Egyptians are primarily native to Africa, not primarily Arab "foreigners"

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