*Note, that modern day Ghana makes the list. *The earliest date below the green Sahara is in the Great Lakes region btw ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) check it out Capra. Quote veiw/ or copy n paste for easy read.Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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Nice chart. I love how Lower Egypt is basically a giant question mark. All underwater, washed away, or buried under sediment.
Did they ever decide whether those Bir Kiseiba cattle were really domesticated? Would be nice to have some ancient DNA from African cattle.
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Nice thread. I posted some info in the inbox.
quote: Morphological and genetic research seems to provide further support for the topic. According to Grigson (1991, 2000) Egyptian cattle of the 4th millennium BC were morphologically distinct from Eurasian cattle (Bos taurus) and Zebu (Bos indicus), meaning that African cattle may have been domesticated from the local wild […]
Genetic studies indicate that the wild cattle in Eurasia and in Africa diverged 22,000years ago and suggest an autochthonous domestication for the latter (Blench and MacDonald 2000; Bradly et al. 1996; Caramelli 2006). Linguistic research also provides help in supporting the CPE’s theory. The detailed work done by Ehret (2006) on linguistic stratigraphies in North-eastern Africa revealed how terms connected with cattle herding are older than those associated with agriculture, chronologically placing their origin at the beginning of the Holocene. […]
To sum up, Nubia is Egypt’s African ancestor. What linked Ancient Egypt to the rest of the North African cultures is this strong tie with the Nubian pastoral nomadic lifestyle, the same pastoral background commonly shared by most of the ancient Saharan and modern sub-Saharan societies. Thus, not only did Nubia have a prominent role in the origin of Ancient Egypt, it was also a key area for the origin of the entire African pastoral tradition.
--Gatto M. 2009.
The Nubian Pastoral Culture as Link between Egypt and Africa: A View from the Archaeological Record
Egypt in its African Context: BAR S2204- Archaeopress. 21-29
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quote:Originally posted by capra: Nice chart. I love how Lower Egypt is basically a giant question mark. All underwater, washed away, or buried under sediment.
Did they ever decide whether those Bir Kiseiba cattle were really domesticated? Would be nice to have some ancient DNA from African cattle.
Can't 100% agree about lower Egypt, don't forget about the Merimda, though that's relatively late & scarce for that region (Ancient Nile valley.) And it's funny you ask about the Bir Keseiba it appears that both the timing of actual domestication as well as the source of cattle is still kinda being debated... The controversy seems borderline semantic though in my honest opinion. ...currently reading up on this.
Tukuler can you edit my previous post? switch 'Long' w/ 'Lat' it's in the wrong order.
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Tukuler
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Thanks for helping build this thread all.
I just noticed I posted the Cambridge map as is when I wanted to post my redux
I think Maghreb to Nile ordering shows any relationships better den dem did do.
OK, now it's all down to Goodnight Vienna!
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quote:Originally posted by capra: Nice chart. I love how Lower Egypt is basically a giant question mark. All underwater, washed away, or buried under sediment.
Did they ever decide whether those Bir Kiseiba cattle were really domesticated? Would be nice to have some ancient DNA from African cattle.
Can't 100% agree about lower Egypt, don't forget about the Merimda, though that's relatively late & scarce for that region (Ancient Nile valley.) And it's funny you ask about the Bir Keseiba it appears that both the timing of actual domestication as well as the source of cattle is still kinda being debated... The controversy seems borderline semantic though in my honest opinion. ...currently reading up on this.
Tukuler can you edit my previous post? switch 'Long' w/ 'Lat' it's in the wrong order.
"They" go back and forth on ideas of domestication. Sometimes speaking of it is the practices/customs/activities the population actually PREFORMS regarding cattle : Pastoralism. Meanwhile other times the classify its starting point as the genetic/phenotypic alteration that have occurred in the animals themselves.
So in some scenarios you have African pastoralists herding cows 11 or 12 thousand year ago.........for 1000's of years but its not "domestication" because the remains of the cattle are morphologically "wild"....only to be "domesticated" 6000 years ago. Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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*Note, that modern day Ghana makes the list. *The earliest date below the green Sahara is in the Great Lakes region btw ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) check it out Capra. Quote veiw/ or copy n paste for easy read.
Woah! I always thought Nabta Playa was the oldest African Cattle domestication date.
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Bir Kiseiba is pretty much next door to Nabta Playa.
Could be they were under human control but not genetically domesticated yet. If they were allowed to mate with wild cattle a lot the gene flow could keep them morphologically wild. Seems like the evidence in either direction is pretty weak.
As I understand it modern African taurine cattle are close to Middle Eastern cattle genetically but with a substantial introgression probably from African aurochs. This could come just from wild bulls mating from domestic cows, but if there were already an existing type of native African cattle it could come from mixed herds (with the Middle Eastern taurines predominating because more docile or productive or whatever).
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quote:Originally posted by capra: Bir Kiseiba is pretty much next door to Nabta Playa.
Could be they were under human control but not genetically domesticated yet. If they were allowed to mate with wild cattle a lot the gene flow could keep them morphologically wild. Seems like the evidence in either direction is pretty weak.
As I understand it modern African taurine cattle are close to Middle Eastern cattle genetically but with a substantial introgression probably from African aurochs. This could come just from wild bulls mating from domestic cows, but if there were already an existing type of native African cattle it could come from mixed herds (with the Middle Eastern taurines predominating because more docile or productive or whatever).
Great observation. As you see it has a southern origin.
Btw, there is more recent solid evidence. So it is certainly not weak.
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Would be interested in the more recent evidence if you have a reference handy, Ish Gebor.
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The data was posted to several posters. Hence my first post. When the time suits it will be posted publicly. Unless some of the other posters releases this.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ stop BS-ing, thanks
LOL This euronut is crying, because Africa had local domestication and agriculture etc..
What could possible be the reason for an "African American woman" (self-proclaimed), to be so hostile towards this? lol
And of course as usually, you have nothing relevant to address, but to boost your euronut agenda.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Originally posted by osirion:
Puzzling ABO results for the Haratins and modern Egyptians
Can anyone eXplain why the Haratins would have the closest blood type to the royal Dynastic Egyptians? I realiZe blood typing isn't always accurate but these are people of the same general region. Shouldn't modern day Egyptians have the closest blood type? Logically modern day Egyptians should be the closest in blood type to the ancients so why would indigenous Black Africans be closer? The best eXplaination that is simplest to understand is that the Haratins resemble the Ancient Egyptians better than the modern because they are not as miXed with non-African influence as much.
=
G. Paoli, in "ABO Typing of Ancient Egyptians" IN _Population biology of ancient Egyptians_, edited by D.R. Brothwell and B.A. Chiarelli, London, New York, 1973, showed that the Dynastic Egyptians were most closely matched with the Haratin of the northern Sahara.
Paoli mentions the theory of Cabot-Briggs (Cabot-Briggs, L. (1958), _The Living Races of the Sahara Desert, Massachussets) that this resemblance might indicate the origin of the Haratin.
Here are the figures given for the two groups from Paoli (p. 464):
Modern Northern Haratin and Dynastic Egyptian
code:
------------------------------------------------------------------------ No. O A B AB p q r ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Egyptians 160 34 64 34 28 34.35 21.45 44.20 (Paoli) Haratin 202 40 80 57 25 30.99 23.14 48.87 (Mourant) -------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Haratin are considered a mixture of the "aboriginal black population" of North Africa and freed slaves mostly from the South. Of particular interest in the chart above is the very high frequency of the q gene. In most European population, the gene frequency is below 10% (See Montagu, A. _Introduction to Physical Anthropology_ 1960, p. 334).
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Tukuler
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Are they Arauna2016's earliest YRI-type donors?
Tukuler
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posted
Arauna is a prime example of current tool use.
Bypassing ADMIXTURE where you gotta give a K, they fineSTRUCTURE the data and find there are 14 N Afr cluster tips fitting 5 main branches.
I can see • Atlantic • Oasis-Atlas • Maghreb coastal • Tunisian • N Afr coastal • Egyptian non-exclusive regional sets amid the patchwork.
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Tukuler
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They set GLOBETROTTER on fineSTRUCTURE so as to uncover frequencies for 4 adjacent continental donors • YRI - Niger-Congo Africa • Tun_Ch_Ber - autochthonous N Afr • Syria - Levant / Arabian plate • Basque - Europe
See Yoruba-like in minor and major donors alike. On the left, are D, H, and I Haratin or are they remnants of Saharans in Greco-Latin texts or... ?
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Tukuler
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And for you who like charts some select cluster events from GLOBETROTTER in table format.
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"Aboriginal black population of Saharan and northern Africa?" would that be the EHG-possibly khoisan-like Ancestry detected in Busby 2016 (found in Sahelian and non Saharan -SNS-Africans)? Or would they be representative of another group. I'd like to believe that The north African Huntergathers are so mal-observed due to the fact that they also suffered from the bottleneck referred to as the (OOA) bottleneck. YRI like inferences (in ancient specimens as well) could probably be a result of very early recombination in ancient Saharan Africa or just a lack of drift to the extent that OOA populations exhibited.
The haratin-A.Egyptian relation could just be a result of similar modeling for which the Ancestral origins and make up of both groups were probably similar but not related. (East African SNS + N.AfricanHG for Predynastic-Dynastic Egypt & modern West African + North African for Contemporary Haratin.) I'm not the History guru or anything but to my knowledge, Haratins as we know and observe now didn't exist for that long, long enough to have a genealogical connection to Kemet.... help me out here.
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There are many aboriginal "black" ethnic groups in North Africa and the Haratin happen to have a farmer legacy, ironically.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: There are many aboriginal "black" ethnic groups in North Africa and the Haratin happen to have a farmer legacy, ironically.
I'm a rook when it comes to North African culture/history, When you say "aboriginal," what do you mean? more specifically as a genetic subgroup how are they Identified? are they sequenced or is Henn 2012 the closest we have to a diverse sample set? they date west african admixture to what like 1500 years ago, though Araunna Dates Sahelian or non Saharan African Admixture (SNS) to over 2.2Kya, chiang Dates SNS admixture in Sardinia to roughly before & during that period as well... So are these "mixed" populations the potentially "Aboriginals" or are there un-indexed Black Saharan populations being overlooked.
I also want to point out that while 9kya is the estimate date for this Eurasian component in SSA, Sardinia is often most typically the best reference population for ancient admixture... Sometimes called Eurasian, sometimes called San-like HG.
I mention that here because... According to researchers
quote:Our analysis of cross- coalescent rates suggest the population lineage ancestral to modern-day Sardinia was effectively isolated from the mainland European populations approximately 330 generations ago. This estimate should be treated with caution, but corresponds to approximately 9,900 years ago assuming a generation time of 30 years and mutation rate of 1.25x10-8 per basepair per generation
Chiang 2016
I eventually hope to hear/read from people about these ancestral groups in tukulers other thread, as some of these dates and components in SNS populations are a lil eye opening for me.
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Tukuler
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Before this forum lost momentum I was going to repost on populations north of 20 degrees but I haffe admit the wind left my sails.
Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts.
Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts, i.e.; 34 degrees north.
Black does not mean negro. Black does not mean sub-Saharan.
African history don't begin nor end with genetics, especially this latest salvo of 'farmer' genome genetics which some people are divorcing from studies showing early Holocene African uniparentals in Europe.
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Tukuler
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posted
Africa as a passive absorber of incoming Eurasians is old news warped into a latter day version of Speke or Stuhlman or Meinhoff or Seligman or Baker or Jeffries or as presented by certain ES' 'farmer' enthusiasts.
But dare breathe a word about up to say 20% Africanity in said 'farmers' and it's heresy. Never mind the inception of African civilizations due to Eurasian gene flow is at the back of it all.
How's this for your Basal Eurasian to Near East including Anatolian farmers, Nea Nikomedeia, German, and Scandinavian farmers and a European family today holding onto pre-modern Euro genetics?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
.
Africans step a foot in Eurasia, even Afroasia, and bam they're instantly Eurasian. But, oh, let a Eurasian step foot in Africa and evolve nowhere else and phrazzat they stay Eurasian.
Tastes like what's sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: There are many aboriginal "black" ethnic groups in North Africa and the Haratin happen to have a farmer legacy, ironically.
I'm a rook when it comes to North African culture/history, When you say "aboriginal," what do you mean? more specifically as a genetic subgroup how are they Identified? are they sequenced or is Henn 2012 the closest we have to a diverse sample set? they date west african admixture to what like 1500 years ago, though Araunna Dates Sahelian or non Saharan African Admixture (SNS) to over 2.2Kya, chiang Dates SNS admixture in Sardinia to roughly before & during that period as well... So are these "mixed" populations the potentially "Aboriginals" or are there un-indexed Black Saharan populations being overlooked.
What I mean by aboriginal, is that these groups originated in what is known as the Sahara region.
quote: In this study we analyzed 295 unrelated Berber-speaking men from northern, central, and southern Morocco to characterize frequency of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and to refine the phylogeny of its subclades: E1b1b1b1-M107, E1b1b1b2-M183, and E1b1b1b2a-M165. For this purpose, we typed four biallelic polymorphisms: M81, M107, M183, and M165. A large majority of the Berber-speaking male lineages belonged to the Y-chromosomal E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup. The frequency ranged from 79.1% to 98.5% in all localities sampled. E1b1b1b2-M183 was the most dominant subclade in our samples, ranging from 65.1% to 83.1%. In contrast, the E1b1b1b1-M107 and E1b1b1b2a-M165 subclades were not found in our samples. Our results suggest a predominance of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup among Moroccan Berber-speaking males with a decreasing gradient from south to north. The most prevalent subclade in this haplogroup was E1b1b1b2-M183, for which diffferences among these three groups were statistically significant between central and southern groups.
--Reguig A1, Harich N2, Barakat A1, Rouba H1.
Hum Biol. 2014 Spring;86(2):105-12.
Phylogeography of E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and analysis of its subclades in Morocco.
The most striking part I got from Brenna Henn's study is:
quote:however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood.
--Brenna Henn Published: January 12, 2012DOI: 10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397:
"Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations"
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Before this forum lost momentum I was going to repost on populations north of 20 degrees but I haffe admit the wind left my sails.
Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts.
Blacks darker than the Afers abounded in N Afr south of the Tunisian/Algerian chotts, i.e.; 34 degrees north.
Black does not mean negro. Black does not mean sub-Saharan.
African history don't begin nor end with genetics, especially this latest salvo of 'farmer' genome genetics which some people are divorcing from studies showing early Holocene African uniparentals in Europe.
True.
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Tukuler
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posted
I mean how can I pay any serious attention to a data interpretation ignoring early Holocene so-called sub-Saharan uniparentals in N Afr and even blind sides all the artwork of black phenotypes, an interpretation that reinforces nonsense like only Saharan slave trade network no earlier than 500 CE or Nile slave trade network no earlier than 1200 CE when the genetics field's already established the fact of African admixture in biblical era Levant c.500 BCE and Mzab a little earlier?
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"Eurasian" is but a Geotemporal placeholder for the great Bottleneck. Everyone came from Africa, "sub-Saharan Africa," however The world didn't detach from "SSA." But how would we know from where and how recently certain folks migrated in either direction. ...Here comes "Eurasian."
As it related to West Africa, Civilization/Agriculture etc having it's inception from from backflow has been mystified. Nothing supports that. East Africa, however, is at the mercy of what we conclude about Egypt, though the Agricultural toolkit was said to have been developed in Ethiopia ~7-9ka iirc, long before East Africa was dated to have any "Eurasian" Admixture.
I don't have to say it anymore on my own, folks on here have been posting newer articles speaking on how recombination of a more diverse Genepool can exaggerate genetic distance between Eurasians and SSAn's especially when looking at the average pairwise FST in snp's, which sadly most studies do(did).
For the most part genetic studies have to be somewhat in alignment with what makes sense as a whole from a historical and cultural perspective or I personally wont buy it. with that being said, So called SSA DNA are popping up in N.Africa and Southern Europe. How do we navigate through these findings in explaining the complex history between north and southern Saharans, with out stepping on our own feet.
basically my question is? From where/whom did these Aboriginal black Saharan groups Originate? -they weren't sprinkled across the Sahara by the hands of god. lol, Do we equate them to being direct descendants of the Sans-like Hunter gathers which connects all of north Africa (mostly western), and West Africa? do they share relationship with the Nilotes which connects West and East Africa (in and below the Sahara), or did they descend from a common ancestor with north East Africans, "AfroAsiatics"(without the "Asiatic")?
I understand the truth most certainly may be more complex, but I want to know how I'd be able to Identify said groups genetically. So that I know what I may or may not be looking at in the absence or presence of their particular genome. For one there are ways to maneuver through sampling bias.
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Tukuler
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Price AL, Tandon A, Patterson N, Barnes KC, Rafaels N, et al. Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA, USA. Sensitive Detection of Chromosomal Segments of Distinct Ancestry in Admixed Populations. PLoS Genet 2009 Jun;5(6):e1000519
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: This study IMO seems more explosive and devastating to Eurocentrics than to us Africanists(I know Al-takruri among others upheld what this is saying for a while now)many Eurocentrics claim any black admixture in North Africa is due to slavery..
This pattern has not been detected in previous analyses of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome data [7], and although it can be seen when re-examining published results of STRUCTURE- like analyses of autosomal data, it was not highlighted in those studies, or shown to unambiguously reflect sub-Saharan African admixture [15,38]. We estimate that the average date of the mixture of 72 generations (~2,000 years assuming 29 years per generation [30]) is older than that in Southern Europeans or other Levantines.
Tukuler
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posted
Oh no don't you dare put no sub-Saharans in my Bible's Jew's Israelites and Hebrews no no no!
You see, this is the major stake. Do you for a moment forget the part religious orientation can play on even agnostic or atheist geneticist interpretation of data knowing what's at stake.
Stakes are why Kefi denied her own L3 M N finding in Taforalt's terminal Maurusians or Bekada declaring E-M81 and E-M78 Eurasian lineages.
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Tukuler
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Grrr. Glitch took away what I first wrote on nobody knows how Greco-Latin notice Saharans originated as the listed ethnies, but the gist was E-M33, Gafsian industry, Gafsa type site in the chotts, and this opinion from another poster
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
As I've let it be known earlier, E-M33 shows an epicentre consistent with Mali's pottery producing Ounjougou based populations, as early as 11kya, ...
..., a renewed (i.e. after the Aterians) influx of (Sub-)Saharan African elements seems to be reflected in certain Capsian skeletal elements (e.g. Kanguet El Mouhaad 5, Mechta 3 also see Ain Dokhara's positioning in Holiday 2013). This would put the evidence for (West?) African hunter gatherers, in addition to contemporary and nearby populations of Eastern provenance (like the Tenerians), on the Maghrebi desert/Coast edge at, at least between the early and mid-holocene. E-M33 may be involved.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Oh no don't you dare put no sub-Saharans in my Bible's Jew's Israelites and Hebrews no no no! You see, this is the major stake. Do you for a moment forget the part religious orientation can play on even agnostic or atheist geneticist interpretation of data king knowing what's at stake.
Stakes are why Kefi denied her own L3 M N finding in Taforalt's terminal Maurusians or Bekada declaring E-M81 and E-M78 Eurasian lineages.
I'm not gonna lie, I 100% know where you come from and share that same concern... Sh!t like this speaks VOLUMES on which Ancient samples do or do not get sequenced, especially as it relates to Nilers but I'm not even gonna derail... history isn't subjective, either it happened or it didn't. So no matter how much back bending and concealing people do, the truth can be distinguished. And eventually E1a will get cracked wide open as well... being that downstream clades are found in GBR... you know the reference population for many of the west SSA Eurasian Admixture indexes.... but ofcourse we know the conventional explanation for this got there. Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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Tukuler
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Yeah I already chimed on GBR in Atlantic speakers.
And no, E-M33 ain't the main answer. I propose a local variety that's obviously not Gulf of Guinea not coast to coast Sahelien not Greater 'Nilotic' not even central to south Saharan. Probably more N Afr haplogroups but a difference in STRs from many coast to tell populations.
Thanks for helping keeping this thread alive.
I could keep running me mouth but I wanna hear yours and others voices. I can't learn nothing new from myself.
Well maybe I might post a lil mo like Ashkenazi with ancient L2 mommies or maybe not.
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What do you guys have to say about that "Bell Beaker Behemoth" which is set to break the internet any moment now? Why are Afrocentics tippy-toeing around it? If we know that traditional archaeology points to links between "Sub-Saharan Africa"/ North Africa and southern neolithic Europe, and that preliminary paleogenetics more or less verifies it, why is the analyses and buzz associated with this upcoming study so devoid of any reference to the possibility of African involvement in "Bell Beaker" culture?
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: What do you guys have to say about that "Bell Beaker Behemoth" which is set to break the internet any moment now? Why are Afrocentics tippy-toeing around it? If we know that traditional archaeology points to links between "Sub-Saharan Africa"/ North Africa and southern neolithic Europe, and that preliminary paleogenetics more or less verifies it, why is the analyses and buzz associated with this upcoming study so devoid of any reference to the possibility of African involvement in "Bell Beaker" culture?
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: What do you guys have to say about that "Bell Beaker Behemoth" which is set to break the internet any moment now? Why are Afrocentics tippy-toeing around it? If we know that traditional archaeology points to links between "Sub-Saharan Africa"/ North Africa and southern neolithic Europe, and that preliminary paleogenetics more or less verifies it, why is the analyses and buzz associated with this upcoming study so devoid of any reference to the possibility of African involvement in "Bell Beaker" culture?
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: What do you guys have to say about that "Bell Beaker Behemoth" which is set to break the internet any moment now? Why are Afrocentics tippy-toeing around it? If we know that traditional archaeology points to links between "Sub-Saharan Africa"/ North Africa and southern neolithic Europe, and that preliminary paleogenetics more or less verifies it, why is the analyses and buzz associated with this upcoming study so devoid of any reference to the possibility of African involvement in "Bell Beaker" culture?
Because the Analysts are devoid of any interest in potential African involvement in the BBC.
You might as well start a new thread, I'm surprised Xyyman, Lioness or Clyde haven't already.
I don't see nothing relevant to me in the abstract so far besides the so called discontinuation between the original settlers and incoming BBC... This can explain the R1b frequencies in Europe... but I personally really don't care, unless we're seeing some mention of R1b-L278 and ALL (not just L51) subclades which we probably won't in context.
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: What do you guys have to say about that "Bell Beaker Behemoth" which is set to break the internet any moment now? Why are Afrocentics tippy-toeing around it? If we know that traditional archaeology points to links between "Sub-Saharan Africa"/ North Africa and southern neolithic Europe, and that preliminary paleogenetics more or less verifies it, why is the analyses and buzz associated with this upcoming study so devoid of any reference to the possibility of African involvement in "Bell Beaker" culture?
LOL. Geneticist never read the archaeological literature. As a result, they believe that people just appear in a particular locale, and that locale is where the genesis of the culture and people practicing the culture was situated.
There is a large body of archaeological literature that situates the origin of the stamp beaker decorations in Morocco, not the Steppes or Central Asia. This would point to Africa as the origin of these people.
Reich likes to avoid writing papers which may shake up the status quo, as a result, I doubt he will mention any African genomes in their study such as V88, and definitely no mtDNA L haplogroups.
Toomas Kivisild (2017), in The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA. web page places V88 in ancient Europe during Beaker and Yamnaya times. Kivisild usually accurately reports the results of his research, but I am sure that once he becomes aware that this data can be used by Afrocentrists he may make modifications of his findings.
The discovery of V88 at Bell Beaker and Yamnaya sites should not be surprising because the Bell Beaker culture began in Morocco. .
. Kivisild said that V88 was just one sub-clade of the R1b-M343 lineages, M269 is another R1b-M343 sub-clade.
quote:
Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 sub-clade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7).
This quote makes it clear the V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara. This would place carriers of V88 among the Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. More importantly, the Moroccan antecedents of beaker culture appear first in Iberia and spread into Eastern Europe (Turek,2012), i.e., the exact same places where V88 has been found.
Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012).
Neolithic migrants into Europe from the Levant were also SSA. Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area. If they were Sub-Saharan Africans in the Levant the Neolithic Europeans were also SSA.
Reference:
Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .
As it related to West Africa, Civilization/Agriculture etc having it's inception from from backflow has been mystified. Nothing supports that. East Africa, however, is at the mercy of what we conclude about Egypt, though the Agricultural toolkit was said to have been developed in Ethiopia ~7-9ka iirc, long before East Africa was dated to have any "Eurasian" Admixture.
Actually the way it works is. They look for periods of spikes, then clusters a hypothesis of back migration.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Note, in particularly from the 37:00 minute onwards the question on DNA and historical narratives, it's very interesting.
J. .P Mallory speaks on Indo-European Dispersals and the Eurasian Steppe at the Silk Road Symposium held at the Penn Museum held in March 2011.
Contacts between Europe and China that bridged the Eurasian steppelands are part of a larger story of the dispersal of the Indo-European languages that were carried to Ireland (Celtic) in the west and the western frontiers of China (Tokharian, Iranian) in the east. Reviewing some of the problems of these expansions 15 years ago, the author suggested that it was convenient to discuss the expansions in terms of several fault lines -- the Dnieper, the Ural and Central Asia. The Dnieper is critical for resolving issues concerning the different models of Indo-European origins and more recent research forces us to reconsider the nature of the Dnieper as a cultural border. Recent research has also suggested that we need to reconsider the eastern periphery of the Indo-European world and how it relates to its western neighbors.
J.P. Mallory is Professor of Prehistoric Archaeology at Queen's University, Belfast, Northern Ireland.
Looking at Admixture Estimates (Globetrotter) from Hellenthal 2014 & comparing it to Arauna (posted above)... Hellenthal's sample sizes and population sources are pedestrian, but this visual accommodated with the shared signals through out the continent below the sahara is peculiar. No population sourced stand out as a leading contributor of SSA admixture for the earliest event. I'm disappointed that Arauna and them didn't update their SSA sample set and included more populations, but this gives us a visual indication that the SSA/SNS source for the first indicated north African Admixture event (which predates Arabian Expansion see Arauna 2016) was not probably not represented in the sample set.
17% African total Admixture YRI 3% Mandenka 3% Kenya bantu 2.4%
but the thing is, ancient SSA/SNS admixture in Morocco don't seem to be related to modern East Afrasian/ Ethiopians. IDK if contemporary east Africans best describe ancient Saharan populations.
The following is unsupervised more susceptible to Masking, Understand that populations used in these photos are modern and for the most art had their own Admixture events since 710bce (rough date of this event)... BTW I'm looking at morocco because its the sample with the earliest admixture date within and above the Sahara. 40% African total mozambique 11.8% Tunisian 5.5% Mandenka 4.2%
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^Check your Inbox fam.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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Well, Morocco's Haratin in the zouth will say they're autochthone, that they aren't recently arrived "black West Africans" and the 'whites' they welcomed as new neighbors took over.
North Africa had its own local pops who, wherever their sources were, these local pre-Saharans and North Saharans were neither our • Savannah West Africans • Gulf of Guinea West Africans • South Central Africans • Lower, Middle, or Upper clear to Great Lakes/ Mountains of the Moon (Ruzenwori) Nile Africans • Mediterranean coast Africans.
The Amazigh nationalist North Afrocentrics always gloated on Haratin classical markers distinguishing them from Gnawa. Have any current molecular genetics data falsified that?
Arauna assumes they have Nilo-Saharan antecedents and Sonhrai and at least one Tamazight lect are related iirc.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
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here A stereotypical Berber herm as moderns would have it.
The companion ain't so stereotypical but his 'du is the 'du on Numidian cavaliers and the elder Juba too.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Well, Morocco's Haratin in the zouth will say they're autochthone, that they aren't recently arrived "black West Africans" and the 'whites' they welcomed as new neighbors took over.
North Africa had its own local pops who, wherever their sources were, these local pre-Saharans and North Saharans were neither our • Savannah West Africans • Gulf of Guinea West Africans • South Central Africans • Lower, Middle, or Upper clear to Great Lakes/ Mountains of the Moon (Ruzenwori) Nile Africans • Mediterranean coast Africans.
The Amazigh nationalist North Afrocentrics always gloated on Haratin classical markers distinguishing them from Gnawa. Have any current molecular genetics data falsified that?
Arauna assumes they have Nilo-Saharan antecedents and Sonhrai and at least one Tamazight lect are related iirc.
True.
Adrar Zerzem
Adrar n'Zerzem, Oued Ec-Cayad, Region of Taghjit, southern Morocco, Sahara Desert, North Africa. Rock feature: Tumulus. Radiocarbon date of human bones.
Abstract: "Dated tumuli are very rare in Morocco. Three tumuli from the Adrar n’Zerzem (south Morocco) necropolis have been excavated and the human bones from tumulus no. 2 have been radiocarbon dated with the AMS technique." LMRAA.
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004
Field conference departing from Atar Atar, Mauritania
Organizers Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
View Abstracts Conference Homepage
What is the impact of Holocene climatic changes on human societies: analysis of Neolithic population dynamic and dietary customs. by Jousse, Helene
UMR Paléoenvironnements et Paléobiosphère, Université Claude Bernard Lyon 1, Villeurbanne, France.
quote: The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.
In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).
First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.
This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.
A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.
How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.
- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.
- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.
This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.
Gasse, F., 2002. Diatom-inferred salinity and carbonate oxygen isotopes in Holocene waterbodies of the western Sahara and Sahel (Africa). Quaternary Science Reviews: 717-767.
Jolly, D., Harrison S. P., Damnati B. and Bonnefille R. , 1998. Simulated climate and biomes of Africa during the late Quaternary : Comparison with pollen and lake status data. Quaternary Science Review 17: 629-657.
Jousse H., 2003. Impact des variations environnementales sur la structure des communautés mammaliennes et l'anthropisation des milieux: exemple des faunes holocènes du Sahara occidental. Thèse de l’Université Lyon 1, 405 p.
Jousse H, 2003. Using archaeological fauna to calibrate palaeovegetation: the Holocene Bovids of western Africa. Submit to Quaternary Science Reviews in november 2003, référence: QSR 03-333.
Lézine, A. M. and J. Casanova, 1989. Pollen and hydrological evidence for the interpretation of past climate in tropical West Africa during the Holocene. Quaternary Science Review 8: 45-55.
Riser, J., 1983. Les phases lacustres holocènes. Sahara ou Sahel ? Quaternaire récent du bassin de Taoudenni (Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
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