posted
Preprint: Olalde 2017 Ińigo Olalde, Selina Brace, Morten E. Allentoft, Ian Armit, Kristian Kristiansen, Nadin Rohland, Swapan Mallick, Thomas Booth, Anna Szécsényi-Nagy, Alissa Mittnik, Eveline Altena, Mark Lipson, Iosif Lazaridis, Nick J. Patterson, Nasreen Broomandkhoshbacht, Yoan Diekmann, Zuzana Faltyskova, Daniel M. Fernandes, Matthew Ferry, Eadaoin Harney, Peter de Knijff, Megan Michel, Jonas Oppenheimer, Kristin Stewardson, Alistair Barclay, Kurt W. Al...
quote:Abstract
Bell Beaker pottery spread across western and central Europe beginning around 2750 BCE before disappearing between 2200-1800 BCE. The mechanism of its expansion is a topic of long-standing debate, with support for both cultural diffusion and human migration. We present new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 170 Neolithic, Copper Age and Bronze Age Europeans, including 100 Beaker-associated individuals. In contrast to the Corded Ware Complex, which has previously been identified as arriving in central Europe following migration from the east, we observe limited genetic affinity between Iberian and central European Beaker Complex-associated individuals, and thus exclude migration as a significant mechanism of spread between these two regions. However, human migration did have an important role in the further dissemination of the Beaker Complex, which we document most clearly in Britain using data from 80 newly reported individuals dating to 3900-1200 BCE. British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion. Beginning with the Beaker period, and continuing through the Bronze Age, all British individuals harboured high proportions of Steppe ancestry and were genetically closely related to Beaker-associated individuals from the Lower Rhine area. We use these observations to show that the spread of the Beaker Complex to Britain was mediated by migration from the continent that replaced >90% of Britain's Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years, continuing the process that brought Steppe ancestry into central and northern Europe 400 years earlier.
posted
Yessir... Haven't gotten around to digest this one, still looking at Matheison 2017 and the South East European Neolithic. But the BBC samples are included in that study... ...aaaaand I see a whole lotta R1b1a1's for MtDNA Hgs ...Dem H's are coming in hot.
...Steppes Migration it is?
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posted
It's interesting to me that the Bronze Age Britons appear to actually have more WHG (i.e. European hunter-gatherer) affinity than their Neolithic forebears. It's almost like the Bell Beaker peeps reintroduced a good chunk of aboriginal European ancestry to Britain.
posted
One of the Bell Beaker samples (a woman from near Madrid prob c. 1900 BC) has L1b1a. Can't tell which sample it is on the PCA or ADMIXTURE graph though.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
^^^^^ So Morocco was genetically ignored?
There's a few BBC scatter sites in Maroc.
BBC supposed to move north not south. So it's logical to see if the archaeology supports or disconfirms African origins. Otherwise I don't see BBC relevancy to African studies but I'm here to listen and learn.
I hear the team includes archaeologists. Guess I best get to reading.
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quote:Originally posted by capra: One of the Bell Beaker samples (a woman from near Madrid prob c. 1900 BC) has L1b1a. Can't tell which sample it is on the PCA or ADMIXTURE graph though.
~1800-2200BCE woman from madrid spain, Sample in a group called BB_Spain_yes which includes another sample form the same area (woman) who belongs to haplogroup T... It was the first thing I checked lol
Also theres a chance two of the samples in BB_Spain_cer are african (V88) they are left as basal R1B1a in these studies though.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: ^^^^^ So Morocco was genetically ignored?
There's a few BBC scatter sites in Maroc.
BBC supposed to move north not south. So it's logical to see if the archaeology supports or disconfirms African origins. Otherwise I don't see BBC relevancy to African studies but I'm here to listen and learn.
I hear the team includes archaeologists. Guess I best get to reading.
The sup for Mathieson 2017 might be up your ally but honestly... as far as I can see there's nothing for us in any of the three studies... besides Spain Neolithics which was given the ultimate back burner -_- even in palencia 2017.
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posted
Yeah, there's really nothing to be said until we get North African aDNA.
When the sample files are published someone will look into that R1b1 and figure out whether it's V88 or what, with any luck.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thing for me is from the Neolithic on up the littoral is very much in touch with Tyrrhenian Mediterranean cultures.
For Africa in general it's strictly local and peripheral Maghreb stuff. Still, in my eyes, there's crumbs of Africana in that smidgen between the sea and mountains. Check the neolithic map I just put it the N Afr 16K thread.
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quote:Originally posted by capra: One of the Bell Beaker samples (a woman from near Madrid prob c. 1900 BC) has L1b1a. Can't tell which sample it is on the PCA or ADMIXTURE graph though.
~1800-2200BCE woman from madrid spain, Sample in a group called BB_Spain_yes which includes another sample form the same area (woman) who belongs to haplogroup T... It was the first thing I checked lol
Also theres a chance two of the samples in BB_Spain_cer are african (V88) they are left as basal R1B1a in these studies though.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: ^^^^^ So Morocco was genetically ignored?
There's a few BBC scatter sites in Maroc.
BBC supposed to move north not south. So it's logical to see if the archaeology supports or disconfirms African origins. Otherwise I don't see BBC relevancy to African studies but I'm here to listen and learn.
I hear the team includes archaeologists. Guess I best get to reading.
The sup for Mathieson 2017 might be up your ally but honestly... as far as I can see there's nothing for us in any of the three studies... besides Spain Neolithics which was given the ultimate back burner -_- even in palencia 2017.
posted
Of course they would ignore Africa when Kefi has mtDNA H dated, what, >18,000bc?
as posted in Davidski, followed by personal threats, the paper clearly states BBC did not spread from Iberia to the rest of Europe. Neither from the rest of Europe to Iberia. Significance?
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posted
Supposedly Neolithic and Bell Beaker samples from the Grotte d'Ifri in Morocco are going to be studied in Stanford and Stockholm.
I dearly hope that Kefi et al get better funding, or the Taforalt and Afalou samples are passed on to a bigger lab, because it was very disappointing when the most recent study was still mtDNA HVS-I only.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Of course they would ignore Africa when Kefi has mtDNA H dated, what, >18,000bc?
as posted in Davidski, followed by personal threats, the paper clearly states BBC did not spread from Iberia to the rest of Europe. Neither from the rest of Europe to Iberia. Significance?
That's not true. Most of the earlier research noted that Bell Beaker like, Aurignacian and Solutrean came from Africa and spread across Europe.
The archaeology has not changed. The interpretation has become more Eurocentric as they try to rewrite history.
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quote:Originally posted by capra: Supposedly Neolithic and Bell Beaker samples from the Grotte d'Ifri in Morocco are going to be studied in Stanford and Stockholm.
I dearly hope that Kefi et al get better funding, or the Taforalt and Afalou samples are passed on to a bigger lab, because it was very disappointing when the most recent study was still mtDNA HVS-I only.
The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe Carles Lalueza-Fox, David Reich
May 9, 2017.
Abstract
Bell Beaker pottery spread across western and central Europe beginning around 2750 BCE before disappearing between 2200-1800 BCE. The mechanism of its expansion is a topic of long-standing debate, with support for both cultural diffusion and human migration. We present new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 170 Neolithic, Copper Age and Bronze Age Europeans, including 100 Beaker-associated individuals. In contrast to the Corded Ware Complex, which has previously been identified as arriving in central Europe following migration from the east, we observe limited genetic affinity between Iberian and central European Beaker Complex-associated individuals, and thus exclude migration as a significant mechanism of spread between these two regions. However, human migration did have an important role in the further dissemination of the Beaker Complex, which we document most clearly in Britain using data from 80 newly reported individuals dating to 3900-1200 BCE. British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion. Beginning with the Beaker period, and continuing through the Bronze Age, all British individuals harboured high proportions of Steppe ancestry and were genetically closely related to Beaker-associated individuals from the Lower Rhine area. We use these observations to show that the spread of the Beaker Complex to Britain was mediated by migration from the continent that replaced >90% of Britain's Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years, continuing the process that brought Steppe ancestry into central and northern Europe 400 years earlier.
Our results clearly prove that the expansion of the Beaker Complex cannot be described by a 291 simple one-to-one mapping of an archaeologically defined material culture to a genetically 292 homogeneous population. This stands in contrast to other archaeological complexes analysed to 293 date, notably the Linearbandkeramik first farmers of central Europe2, the Yamnaya of the 294 Pontic-Caspian Steppe2,3, and to some extent the Corded Ware Complex of central and eastern 295 Europe2,3. Instead, or results support a model in which both cultural transmission and human 296 migration played important roles, with the relative balance of these two processes depending on 297 the region. In Iberia, the majority of Beaker Complex-associated individuals lacked Steppe 298 affinities and were genetically most similar to preceding Iberian populations. In central Europe, 299 Steppe ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian 300 Beaker Complex-associated individuals, contradicting initial suggestions of gene flow between 301 these groups based on analysis of mtDNA47 and dental morphology48. Small-scale contacts 302 remain plausible, however, as we observe small proportions of Steppe ancestry in two 303 individuals from northern Spain.
We determined Y-chromosome haplogroups for the 54 male Beaker-associated individuals 159 (Supplementary Table 3). Individuals from the Iberian Peninsula carried Y haplogroups known 160 to be common across Europe during the earlier Neolithic period2,4,20,26,32,39, such as I2a (n=3) and 161 G2 (n=1) (Supplementary Table 3). In contrast, Beaker-associated individuals outside Iberia 162 (n=44) largely carried R1b lineages (84%), associated with the arrival of Steppe migrants in 163 central Europe during the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age2,3. For individuals in whom we 164 could determine the R1b subtype (n=22), we found that all but one had the derived allele for the 165 R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism, which defines the dominant subtype in western Europe today40. 166 Finding this early predominance of the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism in ancient individuals 167 from central and northwestern Europe suggests that people associated with the Beaker Complex 168 may have had an important role in the dissemination of this lineage throughout most of its 169 present-day distribution.
posted
the low-coverage R1bs mentioned earlier *are* R1b-V88, or possibly pre-V88, according to genetiker's analysis. I0261 has only a single V88 equivalent positive call and 2 negative, but at least one of the negatives i think is spurious. I0257 has 3 positive and the same 2 negatives, and enough negative calls downstream to indicate he is not a member of any modern branch.
R1b-V88 was present in Eastern Europe over 9000 years ago and in Spain over 7000 years ago. so, though there was surely some gene flow from North Africa in the Copper Age, there is no indication of a link with African R1b-V88 specifically.
hopefully someone will test them for African affinities, i expect at least a little will turn up in Copper Age Iberia.
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posted
according to genetiker's analysis meaning according to genetiker's analysis, not the paper's. the paper only has them as R1b1 and R1b1a-L754(xR1b1a1a2a-L23).
no not based on coalescent age but on ancient DNA of Ukraine Mesolithic I1784 (7058-7446 BC), in the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe study listed only as R1b1a-L754(xR1b1a1a-P297).
i'm assuming mt hg L1b1a came from Africa because it would be the obvious thing
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quote:Originally posted by capra: according to genetiker's analysis meaning according to genetiker's analysis, not the paper's. the paper only has them as R1b1 and R1b1a-L754(xR1b1a1a2a-L23).
no not based on coalescent age but on ancient DNA of Ukraine Mesolithic I1784 (7058-7446 BC), in the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe study listed only as R1b1a-L754(xR1b1a1a-P297).
i'm assuming mt hg L1b1a came from Africa because it would be the obvious thing
What is the title of the RISE study talking about I4245, indicating L1b1a ?
I have read that the mtDNA of the Bell Beakers was 88% H That is also common in North Africa at high frequency in some places but low diversity but not the common SSA L lineages
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posted
I completely forgot about these samples lol...
quote:Originally posted by capra: the low-coverage R1bs mentioned earlier *are* R1b-V88, or possibly pre-V88, according to genetiker's analysis. I0261 has only a single V88 equivalent positive call and 2 negative, but at least one of the negatives i think is spurious. I0257 has 3 positive and the same 2 negatives, and enough negative calls downstream to indicate he is not a member of any modern branch.
R1b-V88 was present in Eastern Europe over 9000 years ago and in Spain over 7000 years ago. so, though there was surely some gene flow from North Africa in the Copper Age, there is no indication of a link with African R1b-V88 specifically.
hopefully someone will test them for African affinities, i expect at least a little will turn up in Copper Age Iberia.
Nice investigative work, I should play around wit the samples when I get the chance... Anything you wanna see in particular?
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would be cool if you get the chance. just if I4245 shows some detectable African ancestry, you know f4(I4275, SomeOtherBeaker; Mozabite/Yoruba/Mota/Egyptian, Chimp) kind of thing.
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posted
He! He! HE! Anyone!? Finally getting around to reading this
------------------- Quote We caution that our results should NOT BE INTERPRETED as showing the Iberian Neolithic-related ancestry in British Neolithic people derives from migrants whose ancestors lived in Iberia, as we do not have ancient DNA data from yet unidentified source populations — possibly located in southern France — that were ancestral to BOTH Iberian and British farmers. Available Middle Neolithic Iberian individuals are too late to represent the source population for early British farmers, and there is no archaeological evidence for direct immigration from Iberia14. The lack of genome-wide data from Neolithic northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands means that it is not currently possible to identify proximal continental source populations. --------------------
So they are still looking for the source population of the Early British Farmers. It is not Iberia it is NOT France...look further south! Man, these Europeans are stubborn. He! He! He! As I said, there had to be a land bridge between Britain and Africa that is now underwater. Remnants are the Canary Islands, Azores, may be even Cape Verde and STP. What do you think Capra? Chicken coming home to roost?
Give them time. They will Come around! He! He! He!
McEvoy et al...is sitting back and smiling with a smirk on his face. I TOLD YOU SO!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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let's see, people who look genetically almost exactly like early Anatolian farmers, raising Near Eastern crops and livestock, leaving a trail of distinctive pottery along the Mediterranean coast from the Balkans... wow it's such a big mystery. if you close your eyes, clap your hands over your ears, drop some acid, and yell lalala at the top of your lungs maybe you can avoid noticing the obvious.
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posted
No Capra. Reading and understanding is a challenge to you. They are saying that the SOURCE of this British Neolithic are NOT from Iberia but BOTH have the same source population which they have NOT identified. More to come.
quote:Originally posted by capra: [q] i think you have brain damage.
let's see, people who look genetically almost exactly like early Anatolian farmers, raising Near Eastern crops and livestock, leaving a trail of distinctive pottery along the Mediterranean coast from the Balkans... wow it's such a big mystery. if you close your eyes, clap your hands over your ears, drop some acid, and yell lalala at the top of your lungs maybe you can avoid noticing the obvious. [/qb]
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] No Capra. Reading and understanding is a challenge to you. They are saying that the SOURCE of this British Neolithic are NOT from Iberia but BOTH have the same source population which they have NOT identified. More to come.
quote:
We determined Y-chromosome haplogroups for the 54 male Beaker-associated individuals 159 (Supplementary Table 3). Individuals from the Iberian Peninsula carried Y haplogroups known 160 to be common across Europe during the earlier Neolithic period2,4,20,26,32,39, such as I2a (n=3) and 161 G2 (n=1) (Supplementary Table 3). In contrast, Beaker-associated individuals outside Iberia 162 (n=44) largely carried R1b lineages (84%), associated with the arrival of Steppe migrants in 163 central Europe during the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age
An 269 independent line of evidence for population turnover comes from Y-chromosome haplogroup 270 composition: while R1b haplogroups were completely absent in the Neolithic samples (n=25), 271 they represent 95% and 75% of the Y-chromosomes in Beaker Complex-Early Bronze Age and 272 Middle Bronze Age males in Britain, respectively (Fig. 3b; Supplementary Table 3). 273 Our genetic time transect in Britain also allowed us to track the frequencies of alleles with 274 known phenotypic effects. Derived alleles at rs12913832 (SLC45A2) and rs16891982 275 (HERC2/OCA2), which contribute to reduced skin and eye pigmentation in Europeans, dramatically increased in frequency during the Beaker and Bronze Age periods (Extended Data 277 Fig. 5). Thus, the arrival of migrants associated with the Beaker Complex significantly altered 278 the pigmentation phenotypes of British populations.
Our results clearly prove that the expansion of the Beaker Complex cannot be described by a 291 simple one-to-one mapping of an archaeologically defined material culture to a genetically 292 homogeneous population. This stands in contrast to other archaeological complexes analysed to 293 date, notably the Linearbandkeramik first farmers of central Europe2, the Yamnaya of the 294 Pontic-Caspian Steppe2,3, and to some extent the Corded Ware Complex of central and eastern 295 Europe2,3. Instead, or results support a model in which both cultural transmission and human 296 migration played important roles, with the relative balance of these two processes depending on 297 the region. In Iberia, the majority of Beaker Complex-associated individuals lacked Steppe 298 affinities and were genetically most similar to preceding Iberian populations. In central Europe, 299 Steppe ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian 300 Beaker Complex-associated individuals, contradicting initial suggestions of gene flow between 301 these groups based on analysis of mtDNA47 and dental morphology48. Small-scale contacts 302 remain plausible, however, as we observe small proportions of Steppe ancestry in two 303 individuals from northern Spain.
posted
I know and Capra knows these Bell Beaker peoples were Africans. The researchers know this also. In fact any “scientist” worth his weight in gold knows that they need to pull samples from nearby geographic regions to get a complete picture and relationship or the population of interest. It the rational way of performing a study. These scientist do NOT do that..at least publically. When they do the results are clear. Arnaiz-Villens, McVoy, Lazaridis and others. There is a clear ancestral relation between Sahara Africans towards Europeans , including the British. That is why most of these “pop culture” studies go out of their way to exclude the geographically logical reference sample populations. Capra knows this, Henn knows this, Tishkoff knows this, Achilli knows this, Paabo also. They all do. My job here is point out their flaws and failings to dose who can follow. Capra’s job here is to maintain that status quo. My job here is point out the truth. Like when they screwed up with the Abusir. Like the red component being SSA. It is not. Brown the largest component in the Abusirs are found in Great Lakes Africans and Southern Africans(who are sub-Saharan Africans). Insteda of labelling ONLY the YRI as SSA. So yes, the Abusir contained SSA components. Isolating a single component found primarily in YRI is a misdirection by the researchers to appease pop culture. If I read it right that component is only isolated on ONE chromosome in the entire human genome. Chromosome 19? The mind games these people play.
Now back to the British Neolithics
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posted
Weren't you asked already which Great Lakes groups that were excluded from this study that would've matched the AE? Also: The DNA tribes place West Africans before the Levant. So what groups of West Africans, if not the Great Lakes were missing?
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^You know you are NOT competent to have this discussion with me. You are combining apples and oranges. Let Beyoku explain the flaws in your question.. Anyways...
@Capra.. Another lie Capra. He knows the archeological and morphological evidence ALSO shows a Saharan origin. Not only the human genetics but numerous animal aDNA proves my point. Capra I have it ALL covered brother. ALL OF IT!!!
----------------- Several points I made earlier in other threads has been discussed here. Eg that leap Frog Neolithization is absolute nonsense. I told you so. ======
The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia - Miguel Cortés Sánchez a, Francisco(2012)
The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine technology. DIFFERENT evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the FIRST colonists have been summarized. The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover
Recently, the occurrence of well dated non-cardial Neolithic sites has called into question such paradigm (Fig. 1). Examples include a number of Italian settlements, with impressa pottery, the French Languedoc (Pont de Roque-Haute, Peiro Signado, Guilaine et al., 2007) and the Spanish Levant (El Barranquet and Mas d'Is/“lower hut” Bernabeu et al., 2009). All of these sites provide evidence for neolithisation in the western Mediterranean ****PRIOR**** to the Cardial expansion. Within such context, the neolithization of the Iberian peninsula (Fig. 1) is of particular interest (e.g. Manen et al., 2007; Ramos et al., 2008; Carvalho, 2010) due to its strategic location on the confluence of Atlantic, African and Mediterranean Neolithic traditions. The study of this region may additionally provide data to test models of Neolithic migration paths and migration rates through the different continents. Interestingly, this southern Iberian early Neolithic population was established in enclaves located in areas previously occupied by Mesolithic populations that depended on a broad range of coastal resources, and appear to decline for unknown reasons at this time. What seems clear at this point is that the vestiges of this Mesolithic settlement vanished soon after the arrival of the Neolithic populations. Ourmain goal in this paper is to integrate archeological and climatic records, in particular paleoceanographical data, in order to characterize
Southern Iberian Neolithic pioneers — a Maghrebian origin? The arrival of the Neolithic innovations to the western Mediterranean can be interpreted in terms of demic diffusion, although not necessarily of the kind predicted by the wave of advance model (Ammermann and Cavalli-Sforza, 1984). According to available data, a maritime pioneer colonization model, analogous to that proposed by Zilhăo (1993, 2001), seems to be the most viable explanation. AVAILABLE DATA indicate the initial establishment of an Early Neolithic in southernmost Iberia with a likely NORTHERN AFRICAN ORIGIN. The evidences for such hypothesis are MULTIFARIOUS: a) Ceramics—Formal and ornamental parallelisms among Neolithic sites in the Oran region, the eastern Rif and Andalusia (e.g. Manen et al., 2007; Linstädter, 2008; Ramos et al., 2008). b) Lithic industries—Presence of segments and absence of Valencian trapezes (Manen et al., 2007) as well as heat treatment of flint in the Early Neolithic levels from sites in Portugal, Andalusia, and North Africa (Manen et al., 2007; Carvalho, 2008), in the Spanish Levant there is no evidence for this technique (García, 2006). c) Presence of straighteners made on human bone in both the early non-Cardial Neolithic from Nerja (Adam, 1995) and in sites from Andalusia and the Maghreb (Algeria, Libya and Tunisia). d) Use of a large variety of plant species (Table 2) and many domesticated animals (Pereira et al., 2006), unlike the more restricted and specialized cereal use of other European regions during the Early Neolithic. e) The unique features of sickles in the Malaga sites (i.e., flint implements inserted in a slightly diagonal position in the handle during the Early Neolithic. This pattern contrasts with the style found in Northern Iberia, where whole flint blades are inserted parallel to the handle (Ibáńez et al., 2008; Gibaja et al., 2010). f) Preliminary paleogenetic data from an individual from the Middle Neolithic levels of Nerja (Simón et al., 2005) evidence a close genetic relationship with individuals of haplogroup L1b, commonly found in the West African tribes of ***Fulbe, Mandenka, and Yoruba*** (Watson et al., 1996) and, less frequently, in Central and North Africa (Salas et al., 2002). The presence of an African mitochondrial haplogroup at Nerja does not necessarily indicate a recent African origin for that individual. It may be consistent with the fact that African ancestry was present in the region during earlier periods but obviously more data will be required to confirm a Neolithic African ancestry through genetic tracers
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posted
So contrary to what Capra said…there is no archeological evidence of migration. But I am out of my element on archeology , I defer to the experts. Quote: “Available Middle Neolithic Iberian individuals are too late to represent the source population for early British farmers, and there is ***no archaeological evidence*** for direct immigration from Iberia”
“A large-scale seaborne movement of established Neolithic Groups leading to the rapid establishment of the first agrarian and pastoral economies across Britain, provides a plausible scenario for the scale of genetic and cultural change in Britain” /// XYYMAN comment: really?! Only in the imagination of the white man. Even by today’s standards that is quite a feat.
++++ Capra and his BS…Oh! And Capra there goes Davidski Steppes theory down the drain…again. He! He! He!
---------------- Quote: Another striking observation is the haplogroup composition of Neolithic males in Britain (n=25), who displayed entirely I2a2 and I2a1b haplogroups. Thus, there is no evidence at all for a contribution to Neolithic farmers in Britain of the Y chromosome haplogroups (e.g., G2) that were predominant in Anatolian farmers and in Linearbandkeramik northern European farmers.
Interestingly, most of these individuals presented low amounts of steppe ancestry in the nuclear genome as compared to other individuals from the same regions (Figure S1).
We detect 10 males who belonged to R1b-L21/M529, all of them dated to the Beaker and Bronze Age periods and excavated in Britain. This matches the high frequency of this clade in modern populations from the British Isles.
Two Iberian individuals belonged to haplogroup R1b but likely not to R1b-L23 and therefore not to R1b-S116/P312. Similar R1b haplogroups were present in low frequencies in Europe during the Neolithic period, as they have been previously observed in both central Europe (I0559) and Iberia (I0410)124.
Thus, it seems that I0261 belonged to R1b, but not to the R1b-S116/P312 (R1b1a1a2a1a2) clade that is present in most of the Beaker Complex individuals outside Iberia.
This individual and I0261 could belong to the same haplogroup, but for I0257 we cannot exclude any R1b1 subclade.
----------------
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posted
dude did you even try to express a coherent thought there? switch from glue to coffee, it'll help.
little known fact, the boat was only invented in 950 AD. before then it was all sunken land bridges.
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You know you are NOT competent to have this discussion with me. You are combining apples and oranges. Let Beyoku explain the flaws in your question.. Anyways...
Dafuq? Where did all this attitude come from just off a simple question? Are you a complete crank or are you're really just that full of yourself? Maybe both? But it's back to flexing your weave in those stilettos, I see. No matter how many times you're asked to cool it you keep trying to bait and fvck with people. Look, just ignore the question, if you don't feel like answering. Your wackass drama loving attitude is not going to teach black people anything. I guarantee most black people if they read this would/will probably be asking the same questions, if not even more confused by the things you say. You say you "teach" but it's more like you're smugly babbling to yourself. Rather than uplift the community you just want to use it to justify your thirst to experience supremacy over other people. like your too good to speak about things in a way that makes sense to the rest of planet Earth.
Edit: WOW And STILL weave whipping below:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^sheeesshhh! talk to the hand. Listen but don't talk..
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We detect 10 males who belonged to R1b-L21/M529, all of them dated to the Beaker and Bronze Age periods and excavated in Britain. This matches the high frequency of this clade in modern populations from the British Isles.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I know and Capra knows these Bell Beaker peoples were Africans. The researchers know this also.
xyyman, simple question what part of Africa does R1b-L21/M529 come from and when do it leave Africa?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I always contend that R1b-M269 is either from the Sahara or some Isle between Africa and Europe. As I stated above I don’t have the time to painstakingly plot the mutations and determine a expansion or migration path. Maybe someone like Capra can do that. But At high level I would say it has an African origin. Since the early branch R1b-V88 is found in Italy and Africa. … ---------- Comments from other readers
Avatar Chris McCown • 9 months ago Is there any chance that you're interpreting the mixture data backwards? Everything about the R1a/R1b split and their subsequent phylogeny suggests that it migrated outward from NW Europe to the Steppe and not from the Steppe to Europe. For example, you attempt to connect R1b to Beaker migration approximately 4K YBP, yet R1b1 aDNA was found in Northern Italy 14K years ago. If I understand your paper correctly, you say that Iberians are missing Steppe ancestry. I contend that is because admixing further east in Europe then migrated to the Steppe rather than Steppe migrating to Europe Have you considered this possibility? See Big Picture Migration Map: http://www.anthrogenica.com...
•Reply•Share › Avatar Chris McCown Chris McCown • 9 months ago I also contend that R-P312( a proto-Beaker-ish-Celtic ) R1b branch and possibly it's upstream ancestors, stemmed out of the Isles into continental Europe rather than the other way around. Alex Williamson's Big Tree of NGS YDNA data shows that most every R-P312 branch has a branch in the Isles which is highly indicative of it being the hub of all the continental spokes. http://ytree.net/ -----------
Olalde responded to all comments EXCEPT this one above. I told you they know the truth. Olalde responded to Neolithics drinking beer except when challenged on the migration path. lol!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
---------------- Quote:
We detect 10 males who belonged to R1b-L21/M529, all of them dated to the Beaker and Bronze Age periods and excavated in Britain. This matches the high frequency of this clade in modern populations from the British Isles.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I know and Capra knows these Bell Beaker peoples were Africans. The researchers know this also.
xyyman, simple question what part of Africa does R1b-L21/M529 come from and when do it leave Africa?
from Davidski forum
if this R1b distribution map was a blood spatter diagram you'd be looking for the source at a point south of ireland and west of brittany.
(not saying that's evidence of anything - just odd)
--
someone is thinking like me....
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I always contend that R1b-M269 is either from the Sahara or some Isle between Africa and Europe.
I would see an island is an unlikely place for the origin of a haplogroup.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
---------------- Quote:
We detect 10 males who belonged to R1b-L21/M529, all of them dated to the Beaker and Bronze Age periods and excavated in Britain. This matches the high frequency of this clade in modern populations from the British Isles.
You mentioned that Sahara so which place in the Sahara has high or diverse frequencies of R-M529 ?
Now you are also talking about R-M269 which place in the Sahara has high or diverse frequencies of R-M269 ?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Anyone? African, Asian and European R1b found in ancient Britain?
This is what I need to do. A frame by frame breakdown of R1b found in the British aDNA Olalde et al
quote --- February 22, 2018 at 6:30 PM Blogger Samuel Andrews said... Ancient DNA keeps delivering surprises. Looks like, R1b1a is a Mesolithic European lineage tied to WHG. Of course, we don't know how WHG got it. All we know is the major modern R1b1a clades all descend from WHG R1b1a.
"African" R1b-V88, "Central Asian" R1b-M78, and "Middle Eastern" R1b-Z2103 all found in ancient Europeans of mostly of WHG-decent. No one would have predicted this just two years ago.
Originally we thought Yamnaya and EHG were a good representative of the source population of R1b1a1-P297. Now, it appears even Yamnaya traced a fraction of their ancestry to the original R1b1a1 carriers like Villabruna. Then consider how little of a fraction of the ancestry people in modern Spain goes back to the original R1b1a1 carriers. ---
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Hey, Am I seeing this right? mtDNA T2, K2 etc is older in North Africa compared to Britain? The more I look at this data the more I am convinced there is a land mass somewhere in the Atlantic between Coastal West Africa and Extreme West Europe. STP, Cape Verde, Azores, Canary Islands ..Britain.
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Early Neolithic and late Neolithic North Africans “Mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups obtained for IAM (Moroccan Early Neolithic) and KEB (Moroccan Late Neolithic) suggest either a population replacement or an important genetic influx into Morocco between 5,000–3,000 BCE. IAM samples belong to the mtDNA haplogroups U6a and M1—both of which are associated with the back migration to Africa from Eurasia in Upper Palaeolithic times18,19—while KEB samples belong to haplogroups K1, T2 and X2, prominently found in Anatolian and European Neolithic samples2,20 (Supplementary Note 4). Regarding the paternal lineages, IAM individuals carry Y chromosomes distantly related to the typically North African E-M81 haplogroup, while”
Britain Neolithic K1, K2 T2 and X2 is dated at ?
So more African L1b was found in ancient Europe . She was probably a slave!!!! Wink! A very powerful slave or Royalty
---- Sample I4245/RISE659 was obtained from a tomb with a double inhumation in a small artificial cave from Funerary Area 2. A 1–5-year-old child was inhumated at the far end of the cave and was covered by the body of a 20–30-year-old woman, carefully placed in supine position with the head to the left and flexed legs. The woman's head, which rested on a pillow made with a grass fill, revealed an intentional cranial deformation from childhood. Both bodies are known to have decomposed within the infilled space. In terms of the grave goods, a small decorated cup was found on the child, whereas two bigger decorated inlayed cups had been placed between the breast and left arm of the woman. The child was radiocarbon dated to 1960–1740 calBCE (3525±40 BP, Ua --
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Hey, Am I seeing this right? mtDNA T2, K2 etc is older in North Africa compared to Britain? The more I look at this data the more I am convinced there is a land mass somewhere in the Atlantic between Coastal West Africa and Extreme West Europe. STP, Cape Verde, Azores, Canary Islands ..Britain.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I always contend that R1b-M269 is either from the Sahara or some Isle between Africa and Europe.
I would see an island is an unlikely place for the origin of a haplogroup.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
---------------- Quote:
We detect 10 males who belonged to R1b-L21/M529, all of them dated to the Beaker and Bronze Age periods and excavated in Britain. This matches the high frequency of this clade in modern populations from the British Isles.
You mentioned that Sahara so which place in the Sahara has high or diverse frequencies of R-M529 ?
Now you are also talking about R-M269 which place in the Sahara has high or diverse frequencies of R-M269 ?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Herero lands were colonized by Germany
How would you decide what direction it came from? Does Germany have higher diversity? The Herero were subject to genocide yes? I kind of wonder if documented genocidal campaigns should be considered when deciding where the origins of a haplogroup came from. After all a genocide wipes out a lot of a people's biodiversity.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Herero lands were colonized by Germany
How would you decide what direction it came from? Does Germany have higher diversity? The Herero were subject to genocide yes? I kind of wy.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] The Herero lands were colonized by Germany
How would you decide what direction it came from?
by
a) where the oldest human remains carrying the group were found b) regions with highest diversity c) regions with highest frequency
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I'm not doing everybody's work for them, Anybody who wants to bring up R-M269 in the Herero will have to quote the instances where R-M269 is mentioned in a research article, name the journal article and link it
Otherwise I'm not addressing it until a proper presentation is made
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by capra: how could Western European gene flow have possibly reached Southern Africa.
The problem is identifying it as Western European. That is the arc of circular logic.
It depends on how much additional information you chose to ignore.
Imagine a network diagram drawn in the shape of a snowflake or spiderweb(ish) with the most basal R(M269) lineages towards the center as divergent lineages branch off to the outskirts. How much will Africans dominate the epicenter of this diagram? After that consider the diversity, how much different branches are African. Now let's try to associate diversity with age; how many unique branches are found in the Herero...
Without even doing much reading you can deduce the origin in non circular manner. R1b(xV88) is as African as E1a is European.
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