posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
[] Correction....

---- so aren't analogous to the Makrani and Abusir mummies.

[/QB]

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Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
You and your fellow turds are talking on bought time. You are already done. Your position has been thrashed by data for a long time. And it's about to be thrashed even more by the Abusir mummies. You just think you have a point.

---

I already stated my position and stand by it, that ancient Egyptians were Africans most akin to Saharans and Upper Nile valley peoples. A set of mummies from the damn 3rd intermediate Period, a time when most of the dynasties were of Libyan origin, isn't going to refute that position. The Abusir mummies won't say jack about predynastic and Early Dynastic Egyptians, so pound your chest all you want retard, trying to bash the so called Afrocentrist with your strawmen arguments isn't going to win.

---

Typical Egyptturd comeback. You keep talking about late dynastic Egypt but won't mention that late dynastic Egyptians are still closer to predynastic Egyptians than either is to Sub-Saharan Africans.

---

quote:

---

"Badari (8) occupies a position closest to the Teita, Gaboon, Nubian, and Nagada series by centroid values and territorial maps. The Nagada and Kerma series are so similar that they are
barely distinguishable in the territorial
maps; they subsume the first dynasty series
from Abydos. The Sedment and “E” series
are the most distinct of the Nile Valley series.
The European series stands in notable isolation by centroid score (Tables 2B, 3B,
4B) from African series.
The unknown analyses of the Maghreban
crania show many to be more similar to
northern Egyptians (Sedment and “E”
series), but the presence of tropical phenotypes
is notable. Thirteen to seventeen percent
classified into the European series
(Table 5). The Badarian crania have a modal
metric phenotype that is clearly “southern”;
most classify into the Kerma (Nubian), Gaboon,
and Kenyan groups. When labile variables
and the Nubian and Nagada series are eliminated from the analysis in the eleven variable
design, >50% of the Badarian crania
classify into the equatorial African
groups (Table 6). [b]When the two equatorial
African series are combined as Group 17, the
earlier results are confirmed (Table 7)[b]. No
Badarian cranium in any analysis classified
into the European series, and few grouped
with the "E" series. In another analysis without Nagada or any dynastic Egyptians this
result was repeated. The drawback of this
study is that the Nagada I crania could not
be analyzed separately because records were not clear. As was noted earlier, Nutter (1958)
found that they were essentially identical to
the Badarian series. The classification of
crania into specific groups does not imply
identity with those specific series, only affinities with broad patterns connoting common
origin. Thus it is possible to identify a group
broadly as tropical or coastal northern African.

---

Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
@ CBass

quote:

---

Anyway Hema do carry Some North African ancestry. Some of the M35 derived lineages they carry are M78 positive. They, like many heterogenous folks in that region also have shared ancestry with Cushitic speakers. I won't even speak about their A3b2 but I could stretch it.

@Charlie Bass. Please clarify your position.
-Cushitic languages and autosomal ancestry comes from where exactly?
-Horn of Africans are a composite population of East African and "__________".
- The M78 derived lineages found below the Sahara come from?

---

---

Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

When labile variables
and the Nubian and Nagada series are eliminated from the analysis in the eleven variable
design, >50% of the Badarian crania
classify into the equatorial African
groups (Table 6).

---

Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
You are not going to back out of this that easily? Lol! YOU said that the blue found in Makrani is remnants of Igbo (West central Africans). I am TELLING you that is a lie or you don't know what you are talking about. Makrani are NOT related to modern Igbo or other West Central Africans. They may "look" similar but that are very distant.

---

Are you saying they don't have African DNA but are actually very distant like the Papua New Guineans or Australians?

xyyman why are you saying that when you have already read the below ?

quote:

---

To estimate genetic and forensic parameters, the entire mitochondrial DNA control region of 100 unrelated Makrani individuals (males, n=96; females, n=4) living in Pakistan (Turbat, Panjgur, Awaran, Kharan, Nasirabad, Gwadar, Buleda, Karachi and Burewala) was sequenced. We observed a total of 70 different haplotypes of which 54 were unique and 16 were shared by more than one individual. The Makrani population showed a high genetic diversity (0.9688) and, consequently, a high power of discrimination (0.9592). Our results revealed a strongly admixed mtDNA pool composed of African haplogroups (28%), West Eurasian haplogroups (26%), South Asian haplogroups (24%), and East Asian haplogroups (2%), while the origin of the remaining individuals (20%) could not be confidently assigned. The results of this study are a valuable contribution to build a database of mtDNA variation in Pakistan.

---

--Siddiqi MH et al.

Leg Med (Tokyo). 2015 Mar;17(2):134-9. doi: 10.1016/j.legalmed.2014.09.007. Epub 2014 Oct 13.
Genetic characterization of the Makrani people of Pakistan from mitochondrial DNA control-region data.

______________________________

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quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Do they have African DNA...?

---

Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
@ Bass

To give you only one example of your recent BS:

quote:

---

West Eurasian components were masked out, and the remaining African haplotypes were compared with a panel of sub-Saharan African and non-African genomes. We showed that masked Northeast African haplotypes overall were more similar to non-African haplotypes and more frequently present outside Africa than were any sets of haplotypes derived from a West African population. Furthermore, the masked Egyptian haplotypes showed these properties more markedly than the masked Ethiopian haplotypes', pointing to Egypt as the more likely gateway in the exodus to the rest of the world.

---

--Pagani et al 2015

To which you replied:

quote:

---

Are you saying that Elongated tropically adapted bodies come from non-African mixture? So everyone from Fulani, Somali, Tutsi, Maasai, Bahima, comes from mixture? Why aren't the non-Africans this supposedly came from "Elongated" with the same body build? Show me the Eurasian ancestors who have this elongated body plan

---

You can't seriously believe the Pagani quote is saying Northeast Africans' distinctive features are entirely the product of Eurasian admixture. Instead it shows exactly what I was trying to hammer into your skull earlier, namely that Northeast Africans have a stronger affinity to OOA populations than do West Africans precisely because OOA represent a derivative of Northeast Africans. The principle is simple to grasp, so why don't you wrap your head around it and admit you were wrong?

---

Your analysis is rather obvious from the quote Swenet posted. I just don't see how it relates to whatever point Swenet is making about Sub-Saharan Africans vs North Africans. The Pagani quote is saying that North East Africa including Sub_Saharan East Africa(Ethiopia) is more related to OOA populations than West Africans. A fact which more true of Egypt than Ethiopia. So now only West Africans are Sub-Saharan Africans or am I missing something here?

---

quote:

---

According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect. Similar figure have been suggested for sub-Saharan Africa populations [1]. The antiquity of the east African gene pool could be viewed not only from the perspective of the amount of genetic diversity endowed within it but also by signals of uni-modal distribution in their mitochondrial DNA (Hassan et al., unpublished) usually taken as an indication of populations that have passed through ‘‘recent’’ demographic expansion [33], although in this case, may in fact be considered a sign of extended shared history of in situ evolution where alleles are exchanged between neighboring demes [34].

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
@ CBass

quote:

---

Anyway Hema do carry Some North African ancestry. Some of the M35 derived lineages they carry are M78 positive. They, like many heterogenous folks in that region also have shared ancestry with Cushitic speakers. I won't even speak about their A3b2 but I could stretch it.

@Charlie Bass. Please clarify your position.
-Cushitic languages and autosomal ancestry comes from where exactly?
-Horn of Africans are a composite population of East African and "__________".
- The M78 derived lineages found below the Sahara come from?

---

---

Clarify to me how Hema acquired North African ancestry.

-Horners are East African with some Eurasian backflow and OOA ancestry.

I'm not clear about where all E-M78 lineages below the Sahara come from but I would say the Eastern Sahara would be a place that it would come from.

We have no historical evidence of North Africans mixing with Hema, period, so maybe the labels people are putting on these "ancestries" are suspect.

---

Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
This is why you're a duplicitous turd:

quote:

---

When labile variables
and the Nubian and Nagada series are eliminated from the analysis in the eleven variable
design, >50% of the Badarian crania
classify into the equatorial African
groups (Table 6).

---

Repeat that analysis with more late Egyptian samples and (preferably) with more variables and see how long you'll last.

This is the best you can do? Removing variables and removing northeast Africans to get a desired result? Damn you're stupid. And you have no shame trying to post this here with a straight face.

---

Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
@ CBass

quote:

---

Anyway Hema do carry Some North African ancestry. Some of the M35 derived lineages they carry are M78 positive. They, like many heterogenous folks in that region also have shared ancestry with Cushitic speakers. I won't even speak about their A3b2 but I could stretch it.

@Charlie Bass. Please clarify your position.
-Cushitic languages and autosomal ancestry comes from where exactly?
-Horn of Africans are a composite population of East African and "__________".
- The M78 derived lineages found below the Sahara come from?

---

---

Clarify to me how Hema acquired North African ancestry.

-Horners are East African with some Eurasian backflow and OOA ancestry.

I'm not clear about where all E-M78 lineages below the Sahara come from but I would say the Eastern Sahara would be a place that it would come from.

We have no historical evidence of North Africans mixing with Hema, period, so maybe the labels people are putting on these "ancestries" are suspect.

---

-OOA Ancestry comes from where? Did you see the Pagani article about the Egyptian and Ethiopian genomes? Is that region NOT "North Africa"?

-The Eastern Sahara is "North Africa" correct? The Central Sahara is North Africa Correct? Did you read the latest on Trombetta that places V68 et al origin in North Africa?

-The Hema and nearly all those East/Central african Nilo-Cushite-Niger Congo hybrid populations have ancestry from Saharan and or Nilotic Pastoralists. African cattle are a North Africa species. Kruper et al data specifically speaks of these populatiosn leaving North African and migration as far as south Africa. look at the UNiparental data of the Hema.

---

Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Lol. This is how you used to fool people and win debates at Zetaboards? Try that sleight of hands with your friends on that site. You posted data that is unfit for what you used it. Without those shifty shenanigans only 18% of the crania group with Keita's SSA samples, not >50%. Why don't you post that? When you get to Howells or Brace's measurements late dynastic Egyptians cluster with Kushites and predynastic Egyptians before SSA groups do.

It's clear that the only way you can make your point is by using tampered data.

---

Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

Well, something is wrong with Keita's analysis; Teita (south-east Kenyans) don't plot close to Badari; 9 cranial measurements, (a) M + F separate, (b) pooled sexes together:


(a)

Key: T = Teita, K = Kerma (Nubia), G = Giza (Lower Egypt), S = Sedment (Lower Egypt), B = Badari (Upper Egypt), N = Naqada (Upper Egypt)


(b)



Key: same as above, but Greek/Aegean/Cretan samples are to the left.

quote:

---

Examination of the metric plots reveals the following general pattern of relationships. The Teita crania, as expected, are distinct from all others. Predynastic Naqada and Badari
form a separate cluster with 12-15th Dynasty Kerma. These results are consistent with
those shown by the 6 group analysis. The Egyptian and Greek sites are in general separate,
though Giza and Sedment seem to show some affinity with the Greeks, especially those
from Lerna.

---

Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
The eastern and central Sahara lie closer to the southern periphery of the Sahara. If you mean "North Africa" by those regions I can agree. The badarians for example, came from t6he Southwestern desert. If you mean "North African" as in coastal North Africa I disagree.

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Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
The eastern and central Sahara lie closer to the southern periphery of the Sahara. If you mean "North Africa" by those regions I can agree. The badarians for example, came from t6he Southwestern desert. If you mean "North African" as in coastal North Africa I disagree.

---

Where were their ancestors a few millennia earlier, when the Sahara was uninhabitable? Fishing in the Nile? (Serious question btw.)

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Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Punos_Rey:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:
A small portion of Egypt falls inside the tropics in modern times, but the ancient boundary didn't. The southern boundary of ancient Egypt was at Aswan, today it is at Abu Simbel. So the boundary of Egypt in modern times has extended more than 200 km south. So no, I've never contradicted myself; the whole of ancient Egypt was outside of the tropics. Also, I do not deny black Egyptian individuals, however they're a small minority by frequency. I work by means/averages. By your foolishness are Swedes black haired since less than 1% have black hair?

---

So I like how you completely ignore all other mentions of your goalpost shucking and jiving shenanigans.

The boundaries of Dynastic Egypt itself extended and waned overtime. Sudan(especially Wawet/Lower Nubia) was often considered part of Egypt despite Dynastic Egypt proper starting at Aswan. It also doesn't wash away predynastic predecessors of the Egyptians such as the Nabta Playans residing in this tropical zone. Badarians, who have sites throughout Egypt also had sites at this teopical zone. So yeah mention Aswan as much as you want. You can keep deluding yourself that the AE came from the Levant and lived in a iron bubble from those wretched blacks to the south. Its fantasy, nothing more.

As far as your question let me ask you, since you work in averages, wouldn't it be fair to say most of Africa (including most of SSA) isn't black since most Africans don't match tiles 35-36 on Luschan Scale nor the extremely dark (near literal black) end of Type VI skin on Fitzpatrick's scale? I mean since we're being objective and all.


Edit: to cut even more of the bull out. You state you don't deny black Egyptian individuals yet you've hooted and hollered anytime those individuals were brought up and repeatedly said the AE were not black, when in fact there were black AE, making your absolute statement falsifiable just by showing ONE black Aegyptian (let alone the legions of them that lived during Dynastic Egypt). Maybe you should stop with absolute statements you know aren't true.

---

It's hilarious because there are indigenous black populations on the North African coast like the Nafusa, the Masmuda and others, so the notion that black populations are restricted to his zones is laughable. The black population of Egypt is concentrated precisely where the civilization sprang from. The majority of ancient Egypt's population was concentrated in the South until at least just after the new period and so most ancient Egyptians were black.

The South is everything. The fool basically inverted the demographic reality of sncient Egypt with his ridiculous example. [/QB]

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
El Maestro says:

check it out, what I learned on ES in the past 2 days...

Some of what you seem to have learned appears shaky, as detailed below.


SSA's have recently developed morphology.

On what basis have you learned this? And exactly what do you call "recent"?
And what exactly is "true" SSA morphology. Further down your
list of learnings you say: "there's no true Negro/SSA model. ...Makes sense."

OK but then how do you come up with the sweeping category of
"SSA morphology"? Are broad noses something recent? Are narrow noses?
SS Africans have both. What exactly is the "true" SSA morphology
as you have learned it?


Contemporary SSA's weren't wide spread below the Sahara.

On what basis do you say this? WHat are your parameters?
If they are SSA, then by definition of "SSfA" they ARE
"below" the Sahara. And if they were not below the
Sahara then where were they before? Did contemporary
Africans all come from North Africa? Please clarify your reasoning.


Egyptians are North Africans/Saharans but not related to those who mixed with west Africans.

Who exactly makes up this West African mix? Give a concrete example.


the SSA's with similar Morphology with A.Egyptians are all mixed

LOL what is this mystical "mix" you keep talking about?
There are sub-Saharan Africans who have very
little admixture, with similar limb proportions to
the ancient Egyptians. If mystical race "mixes" are
so important, how can this be so? Studies cite Early Naqada
for example clustering with Negro morphology as far as limb
proportions (Keita 1993.) Robins and Shute examined predynastic
and dynastic limb ratios and found them to be very
tropically adapted or "super negroid" Is this because
of a "race mix" with incoming "Eurasians"? Likewise
Pygmy populations with "negro" morphology in some
studies cluster with Egyptians. Where is the alleged
"race mix", and IF there was a "race mix" why is this
the primary factor that links them with Egyptian morphology?


^lol It's funny because West/central Africans have been receiving North/OOA-like admixture for 9K years+

Explain why "race mixes" are the primary factor that relate West/central
Africans to Egyptians?


I ain't beating up on you dude but you make some sweeping claims.
If you have learned these things from the 'Afrocentric"
folk at ES, it would be interesting to hear who you
learned them from..

---

quote:

---

The study on the partial calvarium discovered at Manot Cave, Western Galilee, Israel (dated to 54.7 ± 5.5 kyr BP, Hershkovitz et al. 2015), revealed close morphological affinity with recent African skulls as well as with early Upper Paleolithic European skulls, but less so with earlier anatomically modern humans from the Levant (e.g., Skhul). The ongoing fieldwork at the Manot Cave has resulted in the discovery of several new hominin teeth. These include a lower incisor (I1), a right lower first deciduous molar (dm1), a left upper first deciduous molar (dm1) and an upper second molar (M2) all from area C (>32 kyr) and a right upper second molar (M2) from area E (>36 kyr). The current study presents metric and morphological data on the new Manot Cave teeth. These new data combined with our already existing knowledge on the Manot skull may provide an important insight on the Upper Paleolithic population of the Levant, its origin and dietary habits.

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
The eastern and central Sahara lie closer to the southern periphery of the Sahara. If you mean "North Africa" by those regions I can agree. The badarians for example, came from t6he Southwestern desert. If you mean "North African" as in coastal North Africa I disagree.

---

Where were their ancestors a few millennia earlier, when the Sahara was uninhabitable? Fishing in the Nile? (Serious question btw.)

---

Probably the dryest its ever been. Obvious Horn and Mahgreb refuge exist. Not sure what C Bass has in mind. I have continually made a Joke about E-M78 folks were farming and eating sand when people trying to place humans in an area that was uninhabited do to extreme desert based on TMRCA and SNP origin dates from Published work.

Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
@Charlie. I kinda give you a pass because you were off the scene for years and missed the boat.

Anyway Hema do carry Some North African ancestry. Some of the M35 derived lineages they carry are M78 positive. They, like many heterogenous folks in that region also have shared ancestry with Cushitic speakers. I won't even speak about their A3b2 but I could stretch it.

---

quote:

---

Haplogroup frequencies in 15 Sudanese populations are given in Figure 2 following YCC nomenclature (2002). Haplogroups A-M13 and B-M60 are present at high frequencies in Nilo-Saharan groups except Nubians, with low frequencies in Afro-Asiatic groups although notable frequencies of B-M60 were found in Hausa (15.6%) and Copts (15.2%). Haplogroup E (four different haplotypes) accounts for the majority (34.4%) of the chromosome and is widespread in the Sudan. E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations. E-M33 (5.2%) is largely confined to Fulani and Hausa, whereas E-M2/b is restricted to Hausa. E-M215 was found to occur more in Nilo-Saharan rather than Afro-Asiatic speaking groups.

---

quote:

---

In a previous issue of AJHB, Fernandes et al. (2008. Am J Hum Biol 20:185–190.) describe instances of identity by state at multiple short tandem repeat loci between human Y chromosomes belonging to different E-M35 sub-haplogroups. They interpret these findings as evidence for multiple mutational events in at least two loci (M78 and M81). Here, we introduce a novel polymorphic marker (V68), potentially useful to investigate the issue. This marker and sequence data, reported here for the first time, reinforce our previous interpretations on the phylogenetic structure of the E3b haplogroup. We discuss these results in the frame of general approaches to attain robust phylogenetic inferences based on biallelic polymorphism data. Am. J. Hum. Biol., 2008.

---

—Fulvio Cruciani1, Beniamino Trombetta1, Andrea Novelletto2, Rosaria Scozzari1

Recurrent mutation in SNPs within Y chromosome E3b (E-M215) haplogroup: A rebuttal

American Journal of Human Biology
Volume 20, Issue 5, pages 614–616, September/October 2008

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.20790/abstract




—Chaolong Wang Sebastian Zöllner Noah A. Rosenberg

A Quantitative Comparison of the Similarity between Genes and Geography in Worldwide Human Populations

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:
I love this. lol. All the posters fighting against each other. Did I ultimately cause all this? Reminds me of the film Needful Things, where the demon (Max von Sydow) turns people against each other.

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:
Well, something is wrong with Keita's analysis; Teita (south-east Kenyans) don't plot close to Badari; 9 cranial measurements, (a) M + F separate, (b) pooled sexes together:


(a)

Key: T = Teita, K = Kerma (Nubia), G = Giza (Lower Egypt), S = Sedment (Lower Egypt), B = Badari (Upper Egypt), N = Naqada (Upper Egypt)


(b)



Key: same as above, but Greek/Aegean/Cretan samples are to the left.

quote:

---

Examination of the metric plots reveals the following general pattern of relationships. The Teita crania, as expected, are distinct from all others. Predynastic Naqada and Badari
form a separate cluster with 12-15th Dynasty Kerma. These results are consistent with
those shown by the 6 group analysis. The Egyptian and Greek sites are in general separate,
though Giza and Sedment seem to show some affinity with the Greeks, especially those
from Lerna.

---

- Powell, 1989
"Metric versus non-metric skeletal traits (With special reference to crania from ancient Greece and Egypt.)"

---

quote:

---

The Badarian population

”As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or "Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967). Similarly, the study of dental nonmetric traits has suggested that the Badarian population is at the centroid of Egyptian dental samples (Irish, 2006), thereby suggesting similarity and hence continuity across Egyptian time periods. From the central location of the Badarian samples in Figure 2, the current study finds the Badarian to be relatively morphologically close to the centroid of all the Egyptian samples. The Badarian have been shown to exhibit greatest morphological similarity with the temporally successive EPD (Table 5). Finally, the biological distinctiveness of the Badarian from other Egyptian samples has also been demonstrated (Tables 6 and 7).





These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.

This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment."

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
-The Hema and nearly all those East/Central african Nilo-Cushite-Niger Congo hybrid populations have ancestry from Saharan and or Nilotic Pastoralists. African cattle are a North Africa species. Kruper et al data specifically speaks of these populatiosn leaving North African and migration as far as south Africa. look at the UNiparental data of the Hema.

---

Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
The eastern and central Sahara lie closer to the southern periphery of the Sahara. If you mean "North Africa" by those regions I can agree. The badarians for example, came from t6he Southwestern desert. If you mean "North African" as in coastal North Africa I disagree.

---

Where were their ancestors a few millennia earlier, when the Sahara was uninhabitable? Fishing in the Nile? (Serious question btw.)

---

quote:

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Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).

[...]

Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:
I don't understand this obsession with the notion of Sub_Saharan Africa. Correct me if am wrong, but wasn't the Sahara colonized by Sub-Saharan Africans during the Saharan neolithic? I mean some researchers even speculate that the main reason why the Sahara changed from green to desert is because of over-grazing and over-farming on the part of prehistoric and historic African pastoralists and farmers, modeled culturally and I assume genetically after sub-Saharan cattle herders such as the Masai, Nilotes, Bantu, etc....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4315796/How-humans-created-Sahara-desert-8-000-years-ago.html

---

What you post and asked is not as weird as it appears to some:

quote:

---

"In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003)."

---

quote:

---

The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.

---

quote:

---

The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.

In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).

First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.

This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.


Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.

A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.

How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.

- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.

- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.

This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Egyptturds.com posters can hold a collective grudge all they want. I predicted already what was going to happen:

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Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Late Period Giza sample closer to Badarians and Naqadans than to Nubians in some analyses (not saying all)

The Giza sample also has notable affinities to the Kerma sample.

Charlie Bass debates people online using deceptive manipulations of others' work. That's the only way he can make it seem like he has a point.

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quote:

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"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."

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quote:

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"In particular, the Tuareg have 50% to 80% of their paternal lineages E1b1b1b-M81 [34], [35]. The Tuareg are seminomadic pastoralist groups that are mostly spread between Libya, Algeria, Mali, and Niger. They speak a Berber language and are believed to be the descendents of the Garamantes people of Fezzan, Libya (500 BC - 700 CE) [34]."

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:
I don't understand this obsession with the notion of Sub_Saharan Africa. Correct me if am wrong, but wasn't the Sahara colonized by Sub-Saharan Africans during the Saharan neolithic? I mean some researchers even speculate that the main reason why the Sahara changed from green to desert is because of over-grazing and over-farming on the part of prehistoric and historic African pastoralists and farmers, modeled culturally and I assume genetically after sub-Saharan cattle herders such as the Masai, Nilotes, Bantu, etc....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4315796/How-humans-created-Sahara-desert-8-000-years-ago.html

---

What you post and asked is not as weird as it appears to some:

quote:

---

"In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003)."

---

—Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104

quote:

---

The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.

---

--Eliška Podgorná et al.

Annals of Human Genetics
Volume 77, Issue 6, pages 513–523, November 2013


The Genetic Impact of the Lake Chad Basin Population in North Africa as Documented by Mitochondrial Diversity and Internal Variation of the L3e5 Haplogroup

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ahg.12040/abstr

quote:

---

The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.

In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).

First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.

This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.


Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.

A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.

How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.

- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.

- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.

This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.

---

"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004


http://at.yorku.ca/c/a/m/u/27.htm

---

Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:
Is it really that weird? The African cattle Cultural complex as attested in Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba--neolithic sites in the Western desert-- seems to be a common cultural phenomenon in modern day Sub_Saharan Africa. Cattle being kept mostly for milk and blood and rarely being killed, and farmers learning how to skilfully herd cattle in semi-arid conditions and all sorts of religious and spiritual significance being placed on the cattle.

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
-The Hema and nearly all those East/Central african Nilo-Cushite-Niger Congo hybrid populations have ancestry from Saharan and or Nilotic Pastoralists. African cattle are a North Africa species. Kruper et al data specifically speaks of these populatiosn leaving North African and migration as far as south Africa. look at the UNiparental data of the Hema.

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But couldn't the genetic admixture in these populations be Arab instead of North African? Autosomal distance measured by pair-wise FST is low (0.083), between "Ethio-Somali" and "Arabian" (Hodgson et al. 2014). This is the same distance between Swedes and Greeks (0.084), i.e. northern vs. southern Europeans (Cavalli-Sforza, 1994).

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
We're seeing the shameless fraud that Charlie is on full display. They can't prove their point without cheating. And notice that Charlie never proved anything. Posting how many crania cluster with different groups doesn't tell you how close the Badarian sample as a whole is to any of those groups.

Case in point, Keita's Maghrebi sample and Giza sample are very similar. However, 9% of the Badarians cluster with Maghrebis while 0% of the Badarians cluster with the Late Giza sample. How can this be if this sort of analysis is a reliable indication of the position of Badarians in relation to North Africans?

Are Maghrebi closer to Egyptians than Egyptians? Damn Charlie is stupid.

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Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Late Period Giza sample closer to Badarians and Naqadans than to Nubians in some analyses (not saying all)

The Giza sample also has notable affinities to the Kerma sample.

Charlie Bass debates people online using deceptive manipulations of others' work. That's the only way he can make it seem like he has a point.

---

Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Those lineages and ancestries are "North African" in plenty of the ways you want to slice it. How about North of the Tropics = North Africa. There are plenty of definitions.....you know what I am getting at.

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Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:
Is it really that weird? The African cattle Cultural complex as attested in Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba--neolithic sites in the Western desert-- seems to be a common cultural phenomenon in modern day Sub_Saharan Africa. Cattle being kept mostly for milk and blood and rarely being killed, and farmers learning how to skilfully herd cattle in semi-arid conditions and all sorts of religious and spiritual significance being placed on the cattle.

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Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Crichton (1966) found the Nakada to be more Negroid than the late dynastic northern Gizeh series, although still more similar to it than to a Kenyan series. He warned against
a typological conception of "Negro", suggesting that he may have chosen the wrong "Negro"
group or that the ancestors of the "Negroes" involved may have been different. Crichton (1966)
thought a Nubian series may have been better as the comparative Negroid group.

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Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:
Is it really that weird? The African cattle Cultural complex as attested in Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba--neolithic sites in the Western desert-- seems to be a common cultural phenomenon in modern day Sub_Saharan Africa. Cattle being kept mostly for milk and blood and rarely being killed, and farmers learning how to skilfully herd cattle in semi-arid conditions and all sorts of religious and spiritual significance being placed on the cattle.

---

Reminds me of

cept it was horse blood and horse milk with meat on special occasions.

Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku:
Probably the dryest its ever been. Obvious Horn and Mahgreb refuge exist. Not sure what C Bass has in mind. I have continually made a Joke about E-M78 folks were farming and eating sand when people trying to place humans in an area that was uninhabited do to extreme desert based on TMRCA and SNP origin dates from Published work.

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Reminds me of a guy on another forum who was trying to get R1 to Europe from North America by walking across continental ice sheets grazed by mammoths.

Also Senegal was a refuge apparently.

I can't come up with a good solution for when E-M35 or its predecessor crossed the desert. It was already in Jordan 13 000 years ago, well before the Green Sahara, but it is much younger than Out-of-Africa.

Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm always willing to review my ideas. But there has never been evidence that the so-called "elongated African" phenotype is a result of climatic adaptation. It's a badly underdeveloped idea that has never been proven. Someone just said it and people rolled with it. Just like the notion that dynastic Lower Nubians are diet-adapted versions of Mesolithic Jebel Sahabans. This is just speculative research. In fact, it's not even research; someone just said it once and it has been repeated ever since.

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I never knew this was an undeveloped idea. I always remembered certain older studies supporting. However, I always assumed Horners at least got their features from climate adaption from their dry climate. And me visiting Ethiopia a few months ago the climate was very dry unlike the humid like one in West Africa. I assumed that Horners were the ones who brought the "elongated features" to certain Bantus and Nilotic groups in East Africa.


As for the dynastic Lower Nubians vs Jebel Sahabans that definitely doesn't make sense imo.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Microevolution is very real. But the notion that desert adaptation would change a broad featured African populations that much in the coastal Maghrebi/West Eurasian direction is complete BS. It's laughably stupid.

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Indeed.

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Evidence would be taking fossils over time from the same site and proving that change towards "elongation" does not coincide with new sources of ancestry. You would need ancient DNA for this and this has never been done. All they're doing is taking fossils and write a story about change they cannot even document. They don't even have before and after fossils, let alone DNA.

But Egyptturd loons see nothing wrong with that.

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quote:

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"If some of the eastern African rock paintings date to the terminal Pleistocene or early Holocene, the tall 'Kolo' peoples may represent groups like the lakeshore fishing folk thought to have been in eastern Africa at least as early as 10,000 BP (Barthelme 1977, 1981; Owen et al. 1982). Human remains from the lakeshore sites of Lothagam, the Lake Turkana Galana
Boi beds and Ishango are tall and linear, exactly the features depicted in the 'Kolo' style
paintings. This link between the 'Kolo' style paintings and skeletons from the lakeshore sites
is supported by other evidence. Archaeologists have proposed that ancestral populations of either Nilo-Saharan (Sutton 1974, 1977) or Afroasiatic language-speakers could have been responsible for these lakeshore sites; and modern speakers of both linguistic phyla are among the tallest and most slender people of eastern Africa (Hiernaux 1968, 1975).

The role of tall, linearly built populations in eastern Africa's prehistory has always been
debated. Traditionally, they are viewed as late migrants into the area. But as there is better
palaeoanthropological and linguistic documentation for the earlier presence of these populations than for any other group in eastern Africa, it is far more likely that they are indigenous eastern Africans. I have argued elsewhere (Schepartz 1985) that these prehistoric linear populations show resemblances to both Upper Pleistocene eastern African fossils and present-day, non-Bantu-speaking groups in eastern Africa[b], with minor differences stemming from changes in overall robusticity of the dentition and skeleton. [b]This suggests a longstanding tradition of linear populations in eastern Africa, contributing to the indigenous
development of cultural and biological diversity from the Pleistocene up to the present.

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Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:
Is it really that weird? The African cattle Cultural complex as attested in Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba--neolithic sites in the Western desert-- seems to be a common cultural phenomenon in modern day Sub_Saharan Africa. Cattle being kept mostly for milk and blood and rarely being killed, and farmers learning how to skilfully herd cattle in semi-arid conditions and all sorts of religious and spiritual significance being placed on the cattle.

---

Reminds me of

cept it was horse blood and horse milk with meat on special occasions.

---

Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:

quote:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Those lineages and ancestries are "North African" in plenty of the ways you want to slice it. How about North of the Tropics = North Africa. There are plenty of definitions.....you know what I am getting at.

---

If they came from the Central and eastern Sahara why not say Saharan instead of North African? By that's same token I could east African ancestry "sub-Saharan" since the area in question is south of the Sahara.

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Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
This is fantastic.

Am I seeing STRUCTURE run independently
by an actual enrolled student taking courses
in the field?

Six levels of genetic African substructure.
Except for Mbuti, the peoples all have at
least three genetic clusters.

Gurdasani's early/mid Holocene non-African
admixture to Igbo or Yoruba is not replicated
in your graph. That's in line with the consensus.


Oh wait, is it there at like 1%?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elmaestro:
^wait, aren't you paying attention, Non-SSA admixture is the smoking gun, not just Actual North African admixture. I mean we do know that Different Cultural groups received mixture from multiple different sources right? ....right?


I mean the Inciting moment was the release of the unreleased study saying Modern Egyptians are more SSA, than before right.


It doesn't get more indigenous North African than OOA lol

I'm just playing, but no not really

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Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mansamusa:
Is it really that weird? The African cattle Cultural complex as attested in Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba--neolithic sites in the Western desert-- seems to be a common cultural phenomenon in modern day Sub_Saharan Africa. Cattle being kept mostly for milk and blood and rarely being killed, and farmers learning how to skilfully herd cattle in semi-arid conditions and all sorts of religious and spiritual significance being placed on the cattle.

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I don't think anyone is saying the Green Sahara was unimportant. All kinds of people, cultural elements, technology etc were crossing at that time, major genetic and linguistic expansions were probably driven by the appearance of all that new living space. Cattle are obviously very important; another interesting cultural marker that spread (apparently from the Maghreb to South Sudan) was the practice of pulling out incisors.

But most of the time the Sahara *is* a major barrier. Populations on either side had tens of thousands of years to become differentiated prior to the Green Sahara. People spread into it from multiple directions, north to south as well as south to north. As far as I know there's no evidence that the populations across the desert became homogenized. Received gene flow, sure, but all the previous differentiation was not erased.

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quote:

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Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Dietary changes associated to shifts in subsistence strategies during human evolution may have induced new selective pressures on phenotypes, as currently held for lactase persistence. Similar hypotheses exist for arylamine N-acetyltransferase 2 (NAT2) mediated acetylation capacity, a well-known pharmacogenetic trait with wide inter-individual variation explained by polymorphisms in the NAT2 gene. The environmental causative factor (if any) driving its evolution is as yet unknown, but significant differences in prevalence of acetylation phenotypes are found between hunter-gatherer and food-producing populations, both in sub-Saharan Africa and worldwide, and between agriculturalists and pastoralists in Central Asia. These two subsistence strategies also prevail among sympatric populations of the African Sahel, but knowledge on NAT2 variation among African pastoral nomads was up to now very scarce. Here we addressed the hypothesis of different selective pressures associated to the agriculturalist or pastoralist lifestyles having acted on the evolution of NAT2 by sequencing the gene in 287 individuals from five pastoralist and one agriculturalist Sahelian populations.

RESULTS:

We show that the significant NAT2 genetic structure of African populations is mainly due to frequency differences of three major haplotypes, two of which are categorized as decreased function alleles (NAT2*5B and NAT2*6A), particularly common in populations living in arid environments, and one fast allele (NAT2*12A), more frequently detected in populations living in tropical humid environments. This genetic structure does associate more strongly with a classification of populations according to ecoregions than to subsistence strategies, mainly because most Sahelian and East African populations display little to no genetic differentiation between them, although both regions hold nomadic or semi-nomadic pastoralist and sedentary agriculturalist communities. Furthermore, we found significantly higher predicted proportions of slow acetylators in pastoralists than in agriculturalists, but also among food-producing populations living in the Sahelian and dry savanna zones than in those living in humid environments, irrespective of their mode of subsistence.

CONCLUSION:

Our results suggest a possible independent influence of both the dietary habits associated with subsistence modes and the chemical environment associated with climatic zones and biomes on the evolution of NAT2 diversity in sub-Saharan African populations.

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—Černý et al.

BMC Evol Biol. 2015 Dec 1;15:263. doi: 10.1186/s12862-015-0543-6.

Variation in NAT2 acetylation phenotypes is associated with differences in food-producing subsistence modes and ecoregions in Africa.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26620671

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by beyoku:

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Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:

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Originally posted by beyoku:
Those lineages and ancestries are "North African" in plenty of the ways you want to slice it. How about North of the Tropics = North Africa. There are plenty of definitions.....you know what I am getting at.

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If they came from the Central and eastern Sahara why not say Saharan instead of North African? By that's same token I could east African ancestry "sub-Saharan" since the area in question is south of the Sahara.

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Are you serious though? Why would I need to clarify what region of North Africa they come from if we are not discussing specifics. Now if you agree that those parts of the Sahara are in "North Africa" then what are you protesting about?

What I see is a clash of ideas. At this point we should clearly understand that a group of language such as Cushitic and its associated autosomal "juice" does not originate in Sub Saharan African. We don't "lose" anything if these things come from the northern part of the continent. Once you agree that they do then you have to aslo agree that many African populations show a composite of different and heterogenous North African and Equitorial African ancestries with different genetic histories.

Where is the push back against this coming from? It is nonsensical.

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Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by capra:

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Originally posted by Mansamusa:
Is it really that weird? The African cattle Cultural complex as attested in Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba--neolithic sites in the Western desert-- seems to be a common cultural phenomenon in modern day Sub_Saharan Africa. Cattle being kept mostly for milk and blood and rarely being killed, and farmers learning how to skilfully herd cattle in semi-arid conditions and all sorts of religious and spiritual significance being placed on the cattle.

---

I don't think anyone is saying the Green Sahara was unimportant. All kinds of people, cultural elements, technology etc were crossing at that time, major genetic and linguistic expansions were probably driven by the appearance of all that new living space. Cattle are obviously very important; another interesting cultural marker that spread (apparently from the Maghreb to South Sudan) was the practice of pulling out incisors.

But most of the time the Sahara *is* a major barrier. Populations on either side had tens of thousands of years to become differentiated prior to the Green Sahara. People spread into it from multiple directions, north to south as well as south to north. As far as I know there's no evidence that the populations across the desert became homogenized. Received gene flow, sure, but all the previous differentiation was not erased.

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Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Cass/:
Compare big distance between Somalis and pre-dynastic Egyptians in PCA and three-dimensional sample affinities plot:
http://www.academia.edu/8770480/Characterization_of_biological_diversity_through_analysis_of_discrete_cranial_traits

Key: Somalis = 63, pre-dynastic Egyptians = 59.

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These are from the "Erigavo District, Ogaden Somali" (US).

Why?





The lengths eurocentrism will go…

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged |