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Author Topic: Because I need to get something off my chest
BrandonP
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I still prefer to see ancient Egypt as fundamentally a Black African civilization. And by that I mean an indigenous African civilization built by predominantly dark-skinned indigenous Africans. If you were to ask me about their biological affinities today, I would say they were predominantly an indigenous Eastern Saharan population with some Sudanic and Mediterranean/Middle Eastern admixture, to varying degrees depending on time and region. I imagine the majority of them had dark mahogany-brown skin that graded to even darker shades towards the south of Upper Egypt, and maybe lighter shades (i.e. caramel) in the northern Delta.

I admit that, on a purely emotionally level, I would prefer them to have had stronger "sub-Saharan" affinities, but I cannot dispute the evidence for a major pre-OOA affinity instead (as the whole concept of pre-OOA/Basal Eurasian is, frankly, a logical consequence of the OOA model of AMH origins). So I have no choice but to acknowledge that reality.

Unfortunately it seems a large chunk of this community can't even be bothered to do that. And this was probably always the case, going back to when ausar was still active (and lying about his background to win arguments about the topic). Time and time again in the last few years, I have seen posters whom I used to look up to let me down by refusing to recognize certain realities that contradicted their preferred narratives. Now I can understand having a bias to begin with, since we all have them. I myself got involved in this topic to begin with because I wanted to rebut to the white supremacist narrative that Africans are inherently incapable of civilization and that all great civilizations in Africa required "Caucasoid" back-migrants. But we should not let our emotional biases interfere with our evaluation of reality. And the fact that so many people in this community allow that to happen depresses me.

We should be better than the Eurocentric white supremacists who want to de-Africanize ancient Egypt. We should reach for the moral and intellectual higher ground compared to those racist asswipes. But so many people here haven't climbed to that higher ground at all, not even the ones I used to admire.

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sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
I still prefer to see ancient Egypt as fundamentally a Black African civilization. And by that I mean an indigenous African civilization built by predominantly dark-skinned indigenous Africans. If you were to ask me about their biological affinities today, I would say they were predominantly an indigenous Eastern Saharan population with some Sudanic and Mediterranean/Middle Eastern admixture, to varying degrees depending on time and region. I imagine the majority of them had dark mahogany-brown skin that graded to even darker shades towards the south of Upper Egypt, and maybe lighter shades (i.e. caramel) in the northern Delta.

I admit that, on a purely emotionally level, I would prefer them to have had stronger "sub-Saharan" affinities, but I cannot dispute the evidence for a major pre-OOA affinity instead (as the whole concept of pre-OOA/Basal Eurasian is, frankly, a logical consequence of the OOA model of AMH origins). So I have no choice but to acknowledge that reality.

Unfortunately it seems a large chunk of this community can't even be bothered to do that. And this was probably always the case, going back to when ausar was still active (and lying about his background to win arguments about the topic). Time and time again in the last few years, I have seen posters whom I used to look up to let me down by refusing to recognize certain realities that contradicted their preferred narratives. Now I can understand having a bias to begin with, since we all have them. I myself got involved in this topic to begin with because I wanted to rebut to the white supremacist narrative that Africans are inherently incapable of civilization and that all great civilizations in Africa required "Caucasoid" back-migrants. But we should not let our emotional biases interfere with our evaluation of reality. And the fact that so many people in this community allow that to happen depresses me.

We should be better than the Eurocentric white supremacists who want to de-Africanize ancient Egypt. We should reach for the moral and intellectual higher ground compared to those racist asswipes. But so many people here haven't climbed to that higher ground at all, not even the ones I used to admire.

You're right that none of this should be controversial in the slightest. The ancient Egyptians were indigenous North Africans with origins in the eastern desert in Southern Egypt. Their closest relatives were Lower "Nubians" in the same ecological environment of Southern Egypt.

Upper "Nubians" (Kerma) also have affinities with the ancient Egyptians. Is any (sane) person actually asserting that the ancient Egyptians were Niger-Congo "Sub-Saharan" Africans?

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Punos_Rey
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If you accept indigenous north Africans as "black" or even related (however distantly) to other Africans further south, I don't see the SSA content in AE's mattering at all.

It's really wearing on my patience seeing supposed Afrocentrists being taken to task (in some instances rightfuly so). Yet an open white nationalist on record for hating blacks doesn't get harpooned unless its by one of those very same "afrocentrists". Why does he get an automatic presumption of objectivity/validity to his posts??? If you're going to hold people to account for rigor and accuracy, hold *all* people to account.

AE not being predominately West African(which seems to be what some of you mean when you say "SSA" or even worse, "Bantu") means absolutely nothing to me and I've never rested an argument on that. Africans can form distinct groups while still sharing ties to each other (the closer they are the stronger they'll be). Yet don't shift the parameters of the discussion as convenient as the aforementioned poster does every single time. And don't pose an inherently arbitrary distinction ("black") as objective when you define it the way you want to to suit your agenda (and by you obviously I'm referring to someone in particular). There is no credible possible way you can define a group such as the Nubians as *definitely black* and not the Aegyptians who are most related to them. Yet certain people draw their color line and shift and contort it whenever challenged.

Let's just say there's a lot of room for improvement and that's not just on the part of black posters.

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Mansamusa
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This argument is weird as hell to me
Tyrannohotep. I am still trying to figure out what you and others are on abaout after reading dozens of pages of insults and mud-slinging and redrudging of seeming anodyne posts written years ago on Egyptsearch.

Who says that Ancient Egyptians were West Africans?

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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by Mansamusa:


Who says that Ancient Egyptians were West Africans?

Akachi LOL
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Swenet
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If there is one takeaway from all the recent threads is that they're just going to deny it. Hope you're not expecting the outcome of this thread to be anyone coming clean.
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BrandonP
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@ Punos_Rey

I do find Cass and others like him to be a real pain in the ass. But people are ignoring him precisely because they don't think he's worth debating at all. Although, I will admit the debates with the "Afrocentric" extremists are every bit as fruitless. It probably would be better if all these idiots were simply ignored.

@ Mansamusa

There are some posters like Charlie Bass and xyyman who still seem to maintain that AE ancestry would predominantly belong in some (exclusive) pan-African cluster, rather than considering that Saharan Africans might show a stronger affinity to OOA populations than other Africans simply because OOA branched off these Saharans (a point best illustrated in this graph):

 -

And from another study:
quote:
A classification that takes into account evolutionary relationships and the nested pattern of diversity would require that Sub-Saharan Africans are not a race because the most exclusive group that includes all Sub-Saharan African populations also includes every non-Sub-Saharan African population.
---Long et al 2009

Yet suggesting to some people that Saharan Africans might have a particular affinity to OOA that other Africans wouldn't have seems to have riled up even many "veteran" ES posters over the last few years. They don't seem to understand that this is little more than an inevitable consequence of OOA theory and that it still doesn't make Saharans like the AE non-African to begin with.

@ Swenet

No, I don't expect any of those individuals to "come clean" in this thread. This is mostly a personal vent thread.

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sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
If you accept indigenous north Africans as "black" or even related (however distantly) to other Africans further south, I don't see the SSA content in AE's mattering at all.

It's really wearing on my patience seeing supposed Afrocentrists being taken to task (in some instances rightfuly so). Yet an open white nationalist on record for hating blacks doesn't get harpooned unless its by one of those very same "afrocentrists". Why does he get an automatic presumption of objectivity/validity to his posts??? If you're going to hold people to account for rigor and accuracy, hold *all* people to account.

AE not being predominately West African(which seems to be what some of you mean when you say "SSA" or even worse, "Bantu") means absolutely nothing to me and I've never rested an argument on that. Africans can form distinct groups while still sharing ties to each other (the closer they are the stronger they'll be). Yet don't shift the parameters of the discussion as convenient as the aforementioned poster does every single time. And don't pose an inherently arbitrary distinction ("black") as objective when you define it the way you want to to suit your agenda (and by you obviously I'm referring to someone in particular). There is no credible possible way you can define a group such as the Nubians as *definitely black* and not the Aegyptians who are most related to them. Yet certain people draw their color line and shift and contort it whenever challenged.

Let's just say there's a lot of room for improvement and that's not just on the part of black posters.

All that matters to me is that they were indigenous black Africans and not "Eurasian" transplants from the Levant. People like you are being entirely reasonable.

You're not saying that the ancient Egyptians were Niger-Congo speakers, and you have made it clear that this is not a necessary requirement in order for Africans to identify with ancient Egypt the same way that it hasn't been necessary for the ancient Greeks to be "Nordics" for all Europeans to identify with ancient Greece and valorize it to the extent that it pervades every facet of Western life.

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Swenet
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If people don't come clean it will just look like you're tripping from the outside. And they don't want that stigma of how level-headed people see them so they have an interest in making it seem like you're seeing things. You don't have to explain yourself. Don't fall in the trap of explaining what you mean with numerous examples. They know what you mean and they know it's in their interest to play dumb.

Just keep that in mind as they come here in denial.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:


You're not saying that the ancient Egyptians were Niger-Congo speakers, and you have made it clear that this is not a necessary requirement in order for Africans to identify with ancient Egypt the same way that it hasn't been necessary for the ancient Greeks to be "Nordics" for all Europeans to identify with ancient Greece and valorize it to the extent that it pervades every facet of Western life. [/QB]

I'm not sure Europeans valorize the Greeks to the extent that it pervades every facet of Western life. You will have to make the case but maybe.
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Mansamusa
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
@ Punos_Rey

I do find Cass and others like him to be a real pain in the ass. But people are ignoring him precisely because they don't think he's worth debating at all. Although, I will admit the debates with the "Afrocentric" extremists are every bit as fruitless. It probably would be better if all these idiots were simply ignored.

@ Mansamusa

There are some posters like Charlie Bass and xyyman who still seem to maintain that AE ancestry would predominantly belong in some (exclusive) pan-African cluster, rather than considering that Saharan Africans might show a stronger affinity to OOA populations than other Africans simply because OOA branched off these Saharans (a point best illustrated in this graph):

 -

And from another study:
quote:
A classification that takes into account evolutionary relationships and the nested pattern of diversity would require that Sub-Saharan Africans are not a race because the most exclusive group that includes all Sub-Saharan African populations also includes every non-Sub-Saharan African population.
---Long et al 2009

Yet suggesting to some people that Saharan Africans might have a particular affinity to OOA that other Africans wouldn't have seems to have riled up even many "veteran" ES posters over the last few years. They don't seem to understand that this is little more than an inevitable consequence of OOA theory and that it still doesn't make Saharans like the AE non-African to begin with.

@ Swenet

No, I don't expect any of those individuals to "come clean" in this thread. This is mostly a personal vent thread.

I appreciate the idea of Saharans being more related to non-African populations than some sub-Saharan African populations due to the nature of OOA. However, we still don't fully understand what historic and pre-historic Africa was like, genetically speaking. Western Europe has access to several hundred if not thousands of ancient DNA samples and they are still struggling to fully understand and interpret their history genetically. In the case of Africa, all we have is Mota and these unpublished ancient DNA results from Ancient Egypt. Making a bunch of bold assertions and discrediting traditional data based on such limited new evidence seems a little naive.
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Punos_Rey
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm not sure Europeans valorize the Greeks to the extent that it pervades every facet of Western life. You will have to make the case but maybe. [/QB]

Who are you kidding?? I know how much you guys hate Afrocentrists(real or imagined) but to pretend Greece and Rome aren't considered the very LYNCHPIN upon which Western Civilization rests is hysterical. Greco-Romanism permeates the western way of life at every turn, from our modern judicial system, our philosophical concepts, much of our architecture, our speculative arts, our popular stories/myths and so on. Universities all over have departments exclusively dedicated to Greece and Rome (and such departments are typically referred to as *CLASSICS*, not Greco-Roman or Southern European studies,nor even European Classics but *the* Classics). I have yet to have ONE history/philosophy/anthropology course that didn't refer to Greece and Rome, even my courses abroad in China made mention of Greek/Roman philosophers and their importance to the foundation of the west.

Seriously, don't.

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sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm not sure Europeans valorize the Greeks to the extent that it pervades every facet of Western life. You will have to make the case but maybe.

Who are you kidding?? I know how much you guys hate Afrocentrists(real or imagined) but to pretend Greece and Rome aren't considered the very LYNCHPIN upon which Western Civilization rests is hysterical. Greco-Romanism permeates the western way of life at every turn, from our modern judicial system, our philosophical concepts, much of our architecture, our speculative arts, our popular stories/myths and so on. Universities all over have departments exclusively dedicated to Greece and Rome (and such departments are typically referred to as *CLASSICS*, not Greco-Roman or Southern European studies,nor even European Classics but *the* Classics). I have yet to have ONE history/philosophy/anthropology course that didn't refer to Greece and Rome, even my courses abroad in China made mention of Greek/Roman philosophers and their importance to the foundation of the west.

Seriously, don't. [/QB]

Exactly.

This is precisely the same thing that Africa and the diaspora has to do with regards to ancient Egypt and Kush.

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Askia_The_Great
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I agree with OP. This whole thing has become very stupid and we've time has been wasted.

Its not like Ancient Egypt is no longer "black" or "indigenous African."

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If you're arguing AE's were Saharans and not SSA's why are you still arguing they were 'black'? You need to give up the pan-African politics completely. Despite changing his views from SSA to Saharan origin of AE, Tyrannohotep is still politicalizing 'black' to try to cover the whole continent.
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Punos_Rey
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Why are you using black at all? It doesn't stop being politicalizing just because you move the term further south. If we need to stop politicalizing black, that includes you.

Try again d!psh!t nazi.

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sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
If you're arguing AE's were Saharans and not SSA's why are you still arguing they were 'black'? You need to give up the pan-African politics completely. Despite changing his views from SSA to Saharan origin of AE, Tyrannohotep is still politicalizing 'black' to try to cover the whole continent.

Blacks are indigenous to the Sahara, you twit. The Tuaregs, Tobou, Masmuda, Zenata, Sanhaja, Nafusa, North Sudanese and Southern Egyptians are just some of the many black Saharans.
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Punos_Rey
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Its absolutely hilarious to me he accuses us of politicalizing black when black has ALWAYS been political. The purpose of assigning of people as "black" was to other them. So no, we aren't the only ones being political. You can move the goalposts, change the criteria (sub-saharan, then to tropical, then to sub-Egypt) or whatever, but you don't get a special pass. No.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
If you're arguing AE's were Saharans and not SSA's why are you still arguing they were 'black'? You need to give up the pan-African politics completely. Despite changing his views from SSA to Saharan origin of AE, Tyrannohotep is still politicalizing 'black' to try to cover the whole continent.

That argument is that black means African rather than literally skin color


However if that is what Tyrannohotep is arguing then it cannot be at the same time "black" cannot be applied to dark skinned non-Africans. I'm not sure what his opinion on that is.

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Tukuler
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So OK
Who was it cheering Cass on?
Who was it claimed ES a monolith when
there's nearly as many nuanced views
here as tbere are contributing posters?
Who was it started the abusive name calling?
Who was it claimed exclusive knowledge and
the superpower to end lies and bust myths?
Who was it tears into any black who says
AE was a black civilization but purs like
a pussy when white you finally says it?
Who was it iintroduced unsourced pheno
charts into threads discussing genetics
to purposely mislead the unknowing?
Who is it can't tolerate viable alternate
interpretation of data and goes beserk
with 'mind reading' comments as to
a disagreeing poster's supposed
nefarious intents and mechanations?
Who is it posits N Med biological
lineage for prehistoric Egyptians
then refuses to flesh out the
paradigm when asked time and again?
Who is it turns thread subject matter
into an excuse to spleen vent pent up
personal rage thus derailing a thread
for page after page causing people
not looking for a diva's drama to tho
up their hands and turn away from ES?

And who is it eats all that **** up besides
the charisma struck groupies of the cult
of personality?

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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Why are you using black at all? It doesn't stop being politicalizing just because you move the term further south. If we need to stop politicalizing black, that includes you.

Try again d!psh!t nazi.

And yet you're the Nazi clown arguing Europeans = white and Africans = black. I don't argue for this. When it comes to skin colour I don't politicalize the categories into broad/continental groups to match modern political ideologies.
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Punos_Rey
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Referring to Sub-Saharan Africa (or Tropical Africa in which you make sure to exclude tropical southern Egypt) as the "Black Africa" is not politicalizing a broad group to match a modern political ideology??? Saying how much you hate "blacks" is not policalizing skin color to match your ideology??

F*** You.

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Forty2Tribes
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Off hand I would say 20-40% of African American tribes trace their history to the Sudan and a 20-40% of that Egypt/Asia. Nobody seems to have an issue with that except maybe sudaniya.
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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Referring to Sub-Saharan Africa (or Tropical Africa in which you make sure to exclude tropical southern Egypt) as the "Black Africa" is not politicalizing a broad group to match a modern political ideology??? Saying how much you hate "blacks" is not policalizing skin color to match your ideology??

F*** You.

No clown. My model is simply based on empirical data like UV-index. Why is the whole tropics the same UV-index, clown?

 -

UV index is political? [Roll Eyes]

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sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Referring to Sub-Saharan Africa (or Tropical Africa in which you make sure to exclude tropical southern Egypt) as the "Black Africa" is not politicalizing a broad group to match a modern political ideology??? Saying how much you hate "blacks" is not policalizing skin color to match your ideology??

F*** You.

No clown. My model is simply based on empirical data like UV-index. Why is the whole tropics the same UV-index, clown?

 -

UV index is political? [Roll Eyes]

And yet indigenous black Saharan populations exist in opposition to your self vaunted "empirical" data. Now, you're required to muster up the courage to explain why the aforementioned populations are present as far North as the Coast.

Tell us what you really think:

Tell us that these black Saharans don't belong and that they are recent migrants to North Africa.

Tell us that the light-skin Berbers precede the black Berber tribes that inhabit the Maghreb.

Tell us that the Berber language does not have its origins in Northeast Africa and that the Tuaregs and the Beja do not have a common origin in Northeast Africa.

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sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Off hand I would say 20-40% of African American tribes trace their history to the Sudan and a 20-40% of that Egypt/Asia. Nobody seems to have an issue with that except maybe sudaniya.

Absolute fantasy. Where did you get these percentages from? Sudan was not subject to the Trans-Atlantic tragedy, so we did not genetically contribute to the African-American population.
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BrandonP
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@ Punos_Rey

Egypt actually can get some very high UV depending on the time of year. It may fluctuate more than the equatorial regions over the year for sure, but during the Northern Hemisphere summer it can still get extremely high. So retaining ancestral "black" skin in that kind of environment would still be preferable to the kind of depigmentation that Casshole wants.

This is the UV index in Africa as of today:
 -

BTW this is the maximum amount of UV that different places around the world can receive:
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:


You're not saying that the ancient Egyptians were Niger-Congo speakers, and you have made it clear that this is not a necessary requirement in order for Africans to identify with ancient Egypt the same way that it hasn't been necessary for the ancient Greeks to be "Nordics" for all Europeans to identify with ancient Greece and valorize it to the extent that it pervades every facet of Western life.

I'm not sure Europeans valorize the Greeks to the extent that it pervades every facet of Western life. You will have to make the case but maybe. [/QB]
Are you kidding?
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
If you're arguing AE's were Saharans and not SSA's why are you still arguing they were 'black'? You need to give up the pan-African politics completely. Despite changing his views from SSA to Saharan origin of AE, Tyrannohotep is still politicalizing 'black' to try to cover the whole continent.

You lack understanding of African history and ethnography.

You are a NOBODY.

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Forty2Tribes
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Absolute fantasy. Where did you get these percentages from? Sudan was not subject to the Trans-Atlantic tragedy, so we did not genetically contribute to the African-American population.

Did you not see my post from the other thread?


quote:

I'm probably more Balanta than anything. Still waiting on an SNP test. But so far more Balanta than anything. Balanta, Ovambo, Fang, Ashanti.

So lets say I study the Balanta's origins.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanta_people
quote:
Oral tradition amongst the Balanta has it that they migrated westward from the area that is now Egypt, Sudan, and Ethiopia to escape drought and wars.
I could also do this with the Ashanti.

http://documentslide.com/documents/the-law-of-primitive-man-a-study-in-comparative-legal-dynamics.html
quote:
Originally the Ashanti lived in the grasslands of the western Sudan where presumably they were sedentary gardeners. This we know only from their oral traditions.
Dnatribes and Tukuler's PopSTR both cased that I'm more related to damn near everyone than I am Yoruba however I have read that most African Americans are related to Yoruba who also trace their history to the Sudan.

Look at both of Oprah'stribes
Also from Wikipedia
Kpelle
quote:
The Kpelle or Guerze lived in North Sudan during the sixteenth century, before fleeing to other parts of north west Africa into what is now Mali.[2] Their flight was due to internal conflicts between the tribes from the crumbling Sudanic empire.[2] Some migrated to Liberia, Mauritania, and Chad.[2] They still maintained their traditional and cultural heritage despite their migration. A handful are still of Kpelle origin in North Sudan. They are mixed with the Nubians of the North Sudan where they remain a large minority.
Bamileke
quote:
The Cameroon-Bamileke Bantu people cluster encompasses multiple Bantu ethnic groups primarily found in Cameroon, the largest of which is the Bamileke. The Bamileke, whose origins trace to Egypt, migrated to what is now northern Cameroon between the 11th and 14th centuries.



I studied the origins of most of the major tribes in Africa. The 20-40% was about what I remembered and that is on a sort of per capita estimate because the larger tribes were more likely.
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Elijah The Tishbite
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What I want to know is what are so many people North African-centric these days.
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~As I told you the ancient southern boundary of Egypt was 200km north than it is today. So the whole of ancient Egypt was outside of the tropics. This is why the ancient Egyptians distinguished their skin colour to the Nubians:

"The countries of Syria and Nubia, the land of Egypt, Thou settest every man in his place, Thou suppliest their necessities:Everyone has his food, and his time of life is reckoned. Their tongues are separate in speech, And their natures as well;Their skins are distinguished, As thou distinguishest the foreign peoples."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten

The average Nubians was dark brown ('black'), while the Egyptian a light (Lower/Middle Egyptian) to medium (Upper Egyptian) brown shade:

"Ancient Egyptians, like their modern descendants, varied in complexion from a light Mediterranean type, to a light brown in Middle Egypt, to a darker brown in southern Egypt." (Snowden, 1997)

Afrocentristcs ignore this variation and cline, and want to categorize light and medium brown pigmentation with dark brown as "black" to fit their modern pan-African politics, where all Africans are "blacks".

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Punos_Rey
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You say the average Nubian was dark brown, Upper Egyptians medium brown, and lower Egyptians light brown. Right after that you cite Snowden who says Southern/Upper Egyptians were dark brown. So since dark brown = black per Cassdom, Upper Egyptians were black? Seems like we've finally come full circle.


I guess also since many Africans in SSA have light to medium brown skin then maybe you should stop calling SSA "black Africa" as there's plenty of SSAfricans that don't have dark brown or near black skin (Type VI)

Nice try on the distinguishing skin colors scthick btw, it conveniently ignores the trove of pieces that showed Egyptians and Nubians could overlap. I'll just repost the same artpiece I did last time you pulled this.

 -

I'm going to eat you alive, Nazi.

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sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
~As I told you the ancient southern boundary of Egypt was 200km north than it is today. So the whole of ancient Egypt was outside of the tropics. This is why the ancient Egyptians distinguished their skin colour to the Nubians:

"The countries of Syria and Nubia, the land of Egypt, Thou settest every man in his place, Thou suppliest their necessities:Everyone has his food, and his time of life is reckoned. Their tongues are separate in speech, And their natures as well;Their skins are distinguished, As thou distinguishest the foreign peoples."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten

The average Nubians was dark brown ('black'), while the Egyptian a light (Lower/Middle Egyptian) to medium (Upper Egyptian) brown shade:

"Ancient Egyptians, like their modern descendants, varied in complexion from a light Mediterranean type, to a light brown in Middle Egypt, to a darker brown in southern Egypt." (Snowden, 1997)

Afrocentristcs ignore this variation and cline, and want to categorize light and medium brown pigmentation with dark brown as "black" to fit their modern pan-African politics, where all Africans are "blacks".

Two can play at the game of just repeating things over and over again. It's no skin off my nose:

 -

The above is a map of all the kingdoms of ancient Sudan -- kingdoms that were contemporaries of ancient Egypt. The word "Nubian" is applied to all of them and this is where the confusion arises.

There was no kingdom or entity called "Nubia" in ancient times. There were no people (s) called "Nubians". These "Nubians" spoke different languages (belonging to different linguistic groups) and had markedly different physical appearances.


The ancient Egyptians specified the various kingdoms and people of the South and used terms like Kush, Setjau, Wawat, Medjay, Irem, Kaau and so on; some of these people exactly resembled the ancient Egyptians while others looked like the pitch-black Dinka or the Nuba of Kordofan.

Some of Egypt's Southern neighbours [those to the immediate South] very closely resembled the ancient Egyptians. Those further South did not.


"Nubia" is a corruption of the ancient Egyptian word Nubt -- a word for gold. There was a city in Upper Egypt called Nubti, which would have been the original Nubia.


Lower "Nubians" and Puntites from Northeast Sudan or Eritrea were identical to the ancient Egyptians and were both distinct from the "Nubians" much further afield. The "Nubians" in Upper Egypt and Northeast Sudan were ethnically the closest people to the ancient Egyptians in or outside Africa.

These are the people of Punt (modern day Northeast Sudan or the Horn) and they resemble the ancient Egyptians:

 -

 -

 -

And these are ancient Egyptian soldiers and sailors

 -

 -

 -


Upper Egypt has had shared affinities with specific people in 'Nubia' for tens of thousands of years, and this is why specialists understand that 'Nubians' were ethnically the closest people to the ancient Egyptians since the predynastic period.

Eurocentrics [ignorant, dishonest cretins] insist on creating an artificial dichotomy between the people of the South and the ancient Egyptians by presenting the pitch-black ancestors of the "Nuba" and the Dinka as the quintessential "Nubians" while ignoring people that so very closely resembled the ancient Egyptians.


Here's a picture of a black man from Swaziland standing next to a Hematite mine and his skin tone matches the red ochre that we see used to represent the ancient Egyptians. Contrast him to a Dinka, and what he's not black anymore?


 -

There is no evidence that Lower "Nubians" were ever distinguished from Upper Egyptians.


Diodorus Siculus: "The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians `are one of their colonies, which was led into Egypt by Osiris. They claim that at the beginning of the world Egypt was simply a sea but that the Nile, carrying down vast quantities of loam from Ethiopia in its flood waters, finally filled it in and made it part of the continent."


Which is in line with this:

"Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. "(Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa: Their Interaction. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472 )

Pseudo Aristotle: "Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two."
[/QB] [/QB]

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sudanese
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The people to the immediate South had the same skin tone as the ancient Egyptians but those further afield did not.

Ethnic Egyptian soldiers:

 -

[URL=http://s525.photobucket.com/user/kushkemet08/media/2427222727_2b968b30a72.jpg.html]  -



Lower "Nubians" as portrayed by ancient Egyptians:

 -

Kushites portraying themselves


 -


 -


 -


The ancient Egyptians stem from a common origin with the people of the immediate South - people in Upper Egypt and North Sudan. [/QB] [/QB]

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sudanese
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Hymn to Aten you say?

So Akhenaten pressumably employed the services of a scribe to let us all know that ancient Egyptians had a different skin tone to both his father and mother. You just went full retard. Never go full retard.

Queen Tiye

 -

Amenhotep III

 -


 -

 -

Akhenaten

 -

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Punos_Rey
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Even today Modern Egyptians are mostly Type IV and V despite all the admixture. I'd be willing to bet in the ancient times they were mostly type V and Type VI with Lower Egyptians in the tip of the Delta being on the lighter side of type V, which btw Southern Europeans are typically type III. Keep trying Nazi.

quote:

Melasma is a common disorder of facial hyperpigmentation that can be resistant to treatment. Our purpose is to evaluate the clinical efficacy of the different available modalities of treatment of melasma among Egyptian patients who have mostly skin types IV-V under a sunny climate.
....

CONCLUSION:
Topical hydroquinone remains the most effective agent for the treatment of melasma in dark-skinned people with rare side effects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19340686
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Elijah The Tishbite
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
~As I told you the ancient southern boundary of Egypt was 200km north than it is today. So the whole of ancient Egypt was outside of the tropics. This is why the ancient Egyptians distinguished their skin colour to the Nubians:

"The countries of Syria and Nubia, the land of Egypt, Thou settest every man in his place, Thou suppliest their necessities:Everyone has his food, and his time of life is reckoned. Their tongues are separate in speech, And their natures as well;Their skins are distinguished, As thou distinguishest the foreign peoples."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten

The average Nubians was dark brown ('black'), while the Egyptian a light (Lower/Middle Egyptian) to medium (Upper Egyptian) brown shade:

"Ancient Egyptians, like their modern descendants, varied in complexion from a light Mediterranean type, to a light brown in Middle Egypt, to a darker brown in southern Egypt." (Snowden, 1997)

Afrocentristcs ignore this variation and cline, and want to categorize light and medium brown pigmentation with dark brown as "black" to fit their modern pan-African politics, where all Africans are "blacks".

The area is outside of the tropics, but the PEOPLE had linear bodies just like those in the tropics.
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
And yet indigenous black Saharan populations exist in opposition to your self vaunted "empirical" data.

Yea, but those are from the tropics. Ancient Egypt was isn't in the tropics. Been over this 100 times.

quote:
Now, you're required to muster up the courage to explain why the aforementioned populations are present as far North as the Coast.
Who? These populations don't exist. No doubt you will come back spamming individuals, when I'm only interested in populations (as averages/means).
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sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
And yet indigenous black Saharan populations exist in opposition to your self vaunted "empirical" data.

Yea, but those are from the tropics. Ancient Egypt was isn't in the tropics. Been over this 100 times.

quote:
Now, you're required to muster up the courage to explain why the aforementioned populations are present as far North as the Coast.
Who? These populations don't exist. No doubt you will come back spamming individuals, when I'm only interested in populations (as averages/means).

Ah, yes, the Nafusa on the Libyan Coast don't exist.
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Punos_Rey
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No no no don't throw a monkey wrench, this white nationalist is the only objective poster around. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
 -

Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square.

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Ase
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
[QB]
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
And yet indigenous black Saharan populations exist in opposition to your self vaunted "empirical" data.

Yea, but those are from the tropics. Ancient Egypt was isn't in the tropics. Been over this 100 times.
Wait wait wait. This is goalpost moving. First you're evaluating them on whether or not they lived in the desert, and when "black" is in the desert "oh well that's just tropical."

...People with tropical adaptations live in the Sahara and always have. Tropical adaptations are often still fair adaptive features to nearby subtropical areas. Egyptian culture was also the daughter of Sudan which is in the tropics. Egypt had a lengthy relationship to people in Sudan. Southern Egypt is in the tropics.


 -

Even your map has nearly half of Egypt with a UV index of 10 to 11. OMG so it's a 10 not an 11! I suppose they could NEEVER have darker skin now! [Roll Eyes]

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Tell us that the light-skin Berbers precede the black Berber tribes that inhabit the Maghreb.

Why are you so sure they *don't*?
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
~As I told you the ancient southern boundary of Egypt was 200km north than it is today. So the whole of ancient Egypt was outside of the tropics. This is why the ancient Egyptians distinguished their skin colour to the Nubians:

"The countries of Syria and Nubia, the land of Egypt, Thou settest every man in his place, Thou suppliest their necessities:Everyone has his food, and his time of life is reckoned. Their tongues are separate in speech, And their natures as well;Their skins are distinguished, As thou distinguishest the foreign peoples."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten

The average Nubians was dark brown ('black'), while the Egyptian a light (Lower/Middle Egyptian) to medium (Upper Egyptian) brown shade:

"Ancient Egyptians, like their modern descendants, varied in complexion from a light Mediterranean type, to a light brown in Middle Egypt, to a darker brown in southern Egypt." (Snowden, 1997)

Afrocentristcs ignore this variation and cline, and want to categorize light and medium brown pigmentation with dark brown as "black" to fit their modern pan-African politics, where all Africans are "blacks".

Stop posting DUMB ****, about a region and people you know NOTHING about, EUROLOOOOOON!


quote:
Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008).[ Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall

Domestication Processes and Morphological Change
Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism
Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod


quote:
"The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix. As there is no significance testing that is available to be applied to this form of Mahalanobis distances, the biodistance scores must be interpreted in relation to one another, rather than on a general scale. In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian).

These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2). Aside from these interpopulation relationships, some Nubian groups are still more similar to other Nubians and some Egyptians are more similar to other Egyptian samples. Moreover, although the Nubian and Egyptian samples formed one well-distributed group, the Egyptian samples clustered in the upper left region, while the Nubians concentrated in the lower right of the plot. One line can be drawn that would separate the closely dispersed Egyptians and Nubians. The predynastic Egyptian samples clustered together (Badari and Naqada), while Gizeh most closely groups with the Lisht sample. The first two principal coordinates from PCO account for 60% of the variation in the samples. The graph from PCO is basically a pictorial representation of the distance matrix and interpretations from the plot mirror the Mahalanobis D2 matrix."

--Godde K.

An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?

Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
And yet indigenous black Saharan populations exist in opposition to your self vaunted "empirical" data.

Yea, but those are from the tropics. Ancient Egypt was isn't in the tropics. Been over this 100 times.

quote:
Now, you're required to muster up the courage to explain why the aforementioned populations are present as far North as the Coast.
Who? These populations don't exist. No doubt you will come back spamming individuals, when I'm only interested in populations (as averages/means).

Been over this 100 times the fact that the people originated from the South, in the TROPICS.


 -


These two reasons - navigation obstacles and restricted floodplain - are the most important reasons why this part of the Nile is thinly populated and why the historic border between Egypt in the north and Nubia or Sudan in the south is the First Cataract at Aswan.


https://www.utdallas.edu/geosciences/nile/cataracts.html


Clueless eurploon clown.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
The Kpelle or Guerze lived in North Sudan during the sixteenth century, before fleeing to other parts of north west Africa into what is now Mali.[2] Their flight was due to internal conflicts between the tribes from the crumbling Sudanic empire.[2] Some migrated to Liberia, Mauritania, and Chad.[2] They still maintained their traditional and cultural heritage despite their migration. A handful are still of Kpelle origin in North Sudan. They are mixed with the Nubians of the North Sudan where they remain a large minority.
Bamileke
quote:
The Cameroon-Bamileke Bantu people cluster encompasses multiple Bantu ethnic groups primarily found in Cameroon, the largest of which is the Bamileke. The Bamileke, whose origins trace to Egypt, migrated to what is now northern Cameroon between the 11th and 14th centuries.

I find all this kind of thing very hard to believe. Is there really a large Kpelle minority in Sudan?
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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Even today Modern Egyptians are mostly Type IV and V despite all the admixture. I'd be willing to bet in the ancient times they were mostly type V and Type VI with Lower Egyptians in the tip of the Delta being on the lighter side of type V, which btw Southern Europeans are typically type III. Keep trying Nazi.

quote:

Melasma is a common disorder of facial hyperpigmentation that can be resistant to treatment. Our purpose is to evaluate the clinical efficacy of the different available modalities of treatment of melasma among Egyptian patients who have mostly skin types IV-V under a sunny climate.
....

CONCLUSION:
Topical hydroquinone remains the most effective agent for the treatment of melasma in dark-skinned people with rare side effects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19340686
The clown never obviously looked at what those Egyptian patients looked like in this study.
 -

These are black skinned?! lol.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Cass/:
quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Even today Modern Egyptians are mostly Type IV and V despite all the admixture. I'd be willing to bet in the ancient times they were mostly type V and Type VI with Lower Egyptians in the tip of the Delta being on the lighter side of type V, which btw Southern Europeans are typically type III. Keep trying Nazi.

quote:

Melasma is a common disorder of facial hyperpigmentation that can be resistant to treatment. Our purpose is to evaluate the clinical efficacy of the different available modalities of treatment of melasma among Egyptian patients who have mostly skin types IV-V under a sunny climate.
....

CONCLUSION:
Topical hydroquinone remains the most effective agent for the treatment of melasma in dark-skinned people with rare side effects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19340686
The clown never obviously looked at what those Egyptian patients looked like in this study.
 -

These are black skinned?! lol.

LOL What does that prove? LOL Do you know their ancestry?


Melanin Dosage Tests: Ancient Egyptians

 -


Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues

-- A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2 Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"
Materials and Methods

https://www.academia.edu/8742479/Melanin_Dosage_Tests_Ancient_Egyptians_DRAFT_


http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10520290500051146




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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tukuler
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When you guys talk tropical what do you mean?
Climate or astronomical latitude?
Which applies to body plans?
Is there an arid body plan?

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I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
When you guys talk tropical what do you mean?
Climate or astronomical latitude?
Which applies to body plans?
Is there an arid body plan?

The dude doesn't know what he is talking about.

On a few occasions westerns have been warn by travel agencies not to go to Egypt because of temperature rise. During the day the Desert (Sahara) region is hot and at night it get's ice-cold.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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