Topic: Because I need to get something off my chest
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Please, not about Cass.
About the nuanced meanings of tropical. About the types of body plans.
Thx!
When you guys talk tropical what do you mean? Climate or astronomical latitude? Which applies to body plans? Is there an arid body plan?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Any one able to help me get access to the article? The abstract cited 45 patients, so I'm quite curious why the Nazi only showed three.
Btw I can show you Afams who are called black that are of similar pigment as those three. But even if we play that game, these people below are black by your own antics
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: The Kpelle or Guerze lived in North Sudan during the sixteenth century, before fleeing to other parts of north west Africa into what is now Mali.[2] Their flight was due to internal conflicts between the tribes from the crumbling Sudanic empire.[2] Some migrated to Liberia, Mauritania, and Chad.[2] They still maintained their traditional and cultural heritage despite their migration. A handful are still of Kpelle origin in North Sudan. They are mixed with the Nubians of the North Sudan where they remain a large minority. Bamileke quote: The Cameroon-Bamileke Bantu people cluster encompasses multiple Bantu ethnic groups primarily found in Cameroon, the largest of which is the Bamileke. The Bamileke, whose origins trace to Egypt, migrated to what is now northern Cameroon between the 11th and 14th centuries.
I find all this kind of thing very hard to believe. Is there really a large Kpelle minority in Sudan?
Do you realize that West Africa was considered west of Sudan, before colonial times. The Sudani script was used from East to West coast, but "YOU FIND it HARD to BELIEVE". So, who exactly are you to make your point relevant?
Also, do you realize that many West Africans moved through Africa to go to Mecca to do Haji. This likely never popped in your head.
I can explain why. Because you have very little to do with the history and the cultures, let alone the ethnography.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
- Ancient Egyptians weren't tropically adapted in body-breadths.
"Body breadth and body mass relative to stature in ancient Egyptians were intermediate between high- and low-latitude groups (Raxter, 2011)." (Bleuze et al. 2014)
Try again.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Any one able to help me get access to the article? The abstract cited 45 patients, so I'm quite curious why the Nazi only showed three.
Btw I can show you Afams who are called black that are of similar pigment as those three. But even if we play that game, these people below are black by your own antics
Libyans
Egyptians&Nubians:
Scribe close up, profile :
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: - Ancient Egyptians weren't tropically adapted in body-breadths.
"Body breadth and body mass relative to stature in ancient Egyptians were intermediate between high- and low-latitude groups (Raxter, 2011)." (Bleuze et al. 2014)
Try again.
quote: Cranial and dental evidence then tends to support a scenario of biological continuity in Egypt.
[…]
The fact that limb proportions in ancient Egyptians are somewhat more “tropical” may reflect the greater lability of limb length compared to body breadth.
[…]
Ancient Egyptians have more tropically adapted limbs in comparison to body breadths, which tend to be intermediate when plotted against higher and lower latitude populations.
-- Michelle H. Raxter (2011)
Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide Comparison
What it says is that modern incoming populations from abroad may have influenced the body ratio. This so, especially in the North/ Lower Egypt. Since there was a trend of difference over time. Historically this is accurate. 27% non-African do you remember?
quote: Tropically adapted groups also have relatively longer distal limb elements (tibia and radius, as compared to femur and humerus) than groups in colder climates.
--Matt Cartmill, Fred H. Smith - 2011 - Social Science
The Human Lineage
quote:"As with all the other limb/trunk indices, the recent Europeans evince lower indices, reflective of shorter tibiae, and the recent sub-Saharan Africans have higher indices, reflective of their long tibiae… The Dolno Vestonice and Pavlov humans… have body proportions similar to those of other Gravettian specimens. Specifically, they are characterized by high bracial and cural indices, indicative of distal limb segment elongation…"
--Trinkaus and Svoboda. 2005. Early Modern Human Evolution in Central Europe
quote:In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE.
Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
"... low mean nasal indices (high, narrow noses) tend to [also] be found in arid regions, such as the desert areas of east Africa..."
-- Mays. S. (2010). The Archaeology of Human Bones. Pg 100-101
As stated before, YOU ARE A NOBODY.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Do you realize that West Africa was considered west of Sudan, before colonial times.
I'm guessing what you are trying to say is that it was considered the West Sudan (with a 'the'). However, the article says they mixed with Nubians. A cynic might suspect that someone confused "the Sudan" with "Sudan" and then made some **** up to go with that, but I'm asking rather than cynically assuming, you see.
quote:Also, do you realize that many West Africans moved through Africa to go to Mecca to do Haji. This likely never popped in your head. I can explain why. Because you have very little to do with the history and the cultures, let along the ethnography.
Actually, Ish Gebor, I don't know much about African history or ethnography; but I do know about the frigging Hajj, man. Come on.
The question was whether there is really a large Kpelle minority in Sudan. Do you have an answer for the actual question this time? For once?
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Do you realize that West Africa was considered west of Sudan, before colonial times.
I'm guessing what you are trying to say is that it was considered the West Sudan (with a 'the'). However, the article says they mixed with Nubians. A cynic might suspect that someone confused "the Sudan" with "Sudan" and then made some **** up to go with that, but I'm asking rather than cynically assuming, you see.
quote:Also, do you realize that many West Africans moved through Africa to go to Mecca to do Haji. This likely never popped in your head. I can explain why. Because you have very little to do with the history and the cultures, let along the ethnography.
Actually, Ish Gebor, I don't know much about African history or ethnography; but I do know about the frigging Hajj, man. Come on.
The question was whether there is really a large Kpelle minority in Sudan. Do you have an answer for the actual question this time? For once?
To make it short.
Many migrated groups settled at different spots during the Hajj and made it their new home. It's weird to think it's weird.
However, at the same time we have to ready funny eurocentrick stories about "hypothetical eurasians" who came from miles and miles away, to mix with the indigenous people. And this is not unbelievable.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Any one able to help me get access to the article? The abstract cited 45 patients, so I'm quite curious why the Nazi only showed three.
Btw I can show you Afams who are called black that are of similar pigment as those three. But even if we play that game, these people below are black by your own antics
Libyans
Egyptians&Nubians:
I can't be the only one who notices that, in the third image (from the tomb of Horemheb), the Egyptian and Kushite characters are painted similar shades of brown.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
So, Ish Gebor, you don't actually know the answer? You are just wasting my time telling me stuff I already know?
(To clarify, the part that's very hard to believe isn't that there could be Kpelle in Sudan. It's that the Kpelle and the Bamileke and whoever else are all supposed to have migrated from Egypt or Sudan to West Africa *less than a thousand years ago*.)
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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quote:Originally posted by capra: So, Ish Gebor, you don't actually know the answer? You are just wasting my time telling me stuff I already know?
To clarify, the part that's very hard to believe isn't that there could be Kpelle in Sudan. It's that the Kpelle and the Bamileke and whoever else are all supposed to have migrated from Egypt or Sudan to West Africa *less than a thousand years ago*.
What I stated was meant in broader terms of interaction between groups. I have explained why it is not a strange possibility. That is the answer, but it doesn't sit well with you, obviously. Despite your lack on ethnography and history of Africa. The Kpelle is not even of my concern here.
Neither am I claiming that the Kpelle migrated to West Africa from Egypt.
quote: Trans-Saharan Trade The importance that contact with the Islamic world held for these empires cannot be understated. While extensive trading networks undoubtedly predated Arabic involvement, the development of trans-Saharan commerce in the seventh century by Arabs and Berbers intensified and expanded the trading networks that made the empires of the western Sudan possible. The savanna region is naturally hospitable to both agriculture and livestock breeding and is ideally situated for trade. An easily traversed region separating radically different environments, each possessing resources and products badly needed by the other, it is likely that the savanna was an important trading arena long before the first camel caravans arrived from northern Africa (third to fourth century A.D.).
Although a rich diversity of goods were exchanged, all the empires of the western Sudan were primarily based upon control of the lucrative trans-Saharan trade in gold and salt. Gold, mined predominantly in southern West Africa, was much sought after by both African rulers and traders bound for northern Africa and Europe. Salt was essential in the regions south of the Sahara both as a dietary supplement and a preservative. Strategically located between southern gold-producing regions and Saharan salt mines like Taghaza, the kingdoms of the western Sudan were well positioned to amass great wealth through the taxation of imports and exports.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: [/qb]I can't be the only one who notices that, in the third image (from the tomb of Horemheb), the Egyptian and Kushite characters are painted similar shades of brown. [/QB]
You may also remember that people like Cass tend to post *this* picture
To "prove" the Aegyptians weren't black and infact had antiblack race prejudice. The one I posted is the *real* version of that badly photoshopped image.
Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: I still prefer to see ancient Egypt as fundamentally a Black African civilization. And by that I mean an indigenous African civilization built by predominantly dark-skinned indigenous Africans. If you were to ask me about their biological affinities today, I would say they were predominantly an indigenous Eastern Saharan population with some Sudanic and Mediterranean/Middle Eastern admixture, to varying degrees depending on time and region. I imagine the majority of them had dark mahogany-brown skin that graded to even darker shades towards the south of Upper Egypt, and maybe lighter shades (i.e. caramel) in the northern Delta.
I admit that, on a purely emotionally level, I would prefer them to have had stronger "sub-Saharan" affinities, but I cannot dispute the evidence for a major pre-OOA affinity instead (as the whole concept of pre-OOA/Basal Eurasian is, frankly, a logical consequence of the OOA model of AMH origins). So I have no choice but to acknowledge that reality.
Unfortunately it seems a large chunk of this community can't even be bothered to do that. And this was probably always the case, going back to when ausar was still active (and lying about his background to win arguments about the topic). Time and time again in the last few years, I have seen posters whom I used to look up to let me down by refusing to recognize certain realities that contradicted their preferred narratives. Now I can understand having a bias to begin with, since we all have them. I myself got involved in this topic to begin with because I wanted to rebut to the white supremacist narrative that Africans are inherently incapable of civilization and that all great civilizations in Africa required "Caucasoid" back-migrants. But we should not let our emotional biases interfere with our evaluation of reality. And the fact that so many people in this community allow that to happen depresses me.
We should be better than the Eurocentric white supremacists who want to de-Africanize ancient Egypt. We should reach for the moral and intellectual higher ground compared to those racist asswipes. But so many people here haven't climbed to that higher ground at all, not even the ones I used to admire.
What does 'sub saharan' have to do with it? Black Africans exist today and throughout history across all parts of Africa. This idea that the only way for AE to be "truly African" is to be "sub Saharan" is BS. I personally never had that opinion and this garbage about special enviromental apartheid zones in Ancient Africa is simply white folks spewing their garbage. Yet they don't talk about the fact that Southern Europe has had substantial mixture since Africans first set foot there.
This artificial fake crisis is simply folks trying to convince us that somehow the debates and threads of the past are suddenly all invalid and have no merits purely because someone says so.
Please.
That is pathetic.
I don't need to justify my positions to anyone on why Ancient Egypt was BLACK and why SSA has nothing to do with it.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: If you accept indigenous north Africans as "black" or even related (however distantly) to other Africans further south, I don't see the SSA content in AE's mattering at all.
It's really wearing on my patience seeing supposed Afrocentrists being taken to task (in some instances rightfuly so). Yet an open white nationalist on record for hating blacks doesn't get harpooned unless its by one of those very same "afrocentrists". Why does he get an automatic presumption of objectivity/validity to his posts??? If you're going to hold people to account for rigor and accuracy, hold *all* people to account.
AE not being predominately West African(which seems to be what some of you mean when you say "SSA" or even worse, "Bantu") means absolutely nothing to me and I've never rested an argument on that. Africans can form distinct groups while still sharing ties to each other (the closer they are the stronger they'll be). Yet don't shift the parameters of the discussion as convenient as the aforementioned poster does every single time. And don't pose an inherently arbitrary distinction ("black") as objective when you define it the way you want to to suit your agenda (and by you obviously I'm referring to someone in particular). There is no credible possible way you can define a group such as the Nubians as *definitely black* and not the Aegyptians who are most related to them. Yet certain people draw their color line and shift and contort it whenever challenged.
Let's just say there's a lot of room for improvement and that's not just on the part of black posters.
Actually all of this goes back to the "when to use black and not to thread". The crux of the issue is what constitutes "african" in a historical and biological context and when did Africans who left Africa stop being "African" and become something else? What marker, trait or other biological marker separates OOA Africans as Africans from later descended populations? And considering that Africans have roamed over all parts of Africa for 100,000 years before even leaving Africa, the idea that there are these fixed historical "groups" of Africans based on a North/South Split totally stupid.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: I can't be the only one who notices that, in the third image (from the tomb of Horemheb), the Egyptian and Kushite characters are painted similar shades of brown.
You may also remember that people like Cass tend to post *this* picture
To "prove" the Aegyptians weren't black and infact had antiblack race prejudice. The one I posted is the *real* version of that badly photoshopped image.
It's weird, because they claim that these are the true negroes, enslaved in Egypt. However, they have no remains of these true negroes? At least that is what they suggest.
The thing that makes it ironic is that the Abu Simbel temple was relocated. Meaning the construction was deconstructed, and reconstructed.
A film on the archaeological significance of the huge Egyptian temples of Abu Simbel and their dissection and removal, stone by stone, to higher grounds out of the reach of the waters of t
Considering the type of art during that time, one can have doubts and considerations wether this is a real autentic piece from ancient Egypt.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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In professor Watrall’s lectures last week, he mentioned that modern Egypt built the Aswan Dam in an attempt to try to contain and minimize the impacts of the annual rising and falling of the water levels of the Nile that for centuries has caused fluctuations in the productivity of agriculture on the flood lands along the river. Due to the construction of the dam, many archaeological sites we threaten by the flooding that would result from the construction of the dam. One of the most famous sites that were threatened was the Abu Simbel temples located in Nubia. For those who are not familiar with the temples, the temples are located on the west bank of the Nile, just southwest of Aswan and were originally constructed during the time period of the Pharaoh Ramses II (around 1257 BCE).
abu simbel temples
The Abe Simbel temples are spectacular! In the past I had read about them and have grown quite fond of the temples themselves. The temples were discovered in 1813 and were explored in 1817 by Giovanni Battista Belzoni. The temples themselves were actually carved into a face of a cliff, much like our very own Mount Rushmore here in the United States. Instead of 5 faces of past presidents, the Abu Simbel temples’ front face shows four colossal seated figures of Ramses himself, all about 67 feet in height. It has been said that the construction of the temple took about 20 years to complete.
When the proposal of the construction of the Aswan Dam begun and discussions about the area at which would most likely flood started, it became imperative to move the Abel Simbel temples to a location that they would be safe from the rising water levels of Lake Nassar. So in 1959, an international donations campaign to save the monument began. According to one resource, the actual saving and reconstruction act for the temples required 5 years of time and approximately $40 million dollars. On Nov. 16,1963, the disassembling of the temples began. With the help of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) and the Egyptian government, the temples were successfully moved and reconstructed on top of a cliff another 200 feet above the original site.
During my search, I ran across a link for a video that discussed some of the tactics used to disassemble the temples. I thought it was extremely interesting and entertaining so I thought I would share it with you.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: I can't be the only one who notices that, in the third image (from the tomb of Horemheb), the Egyptian and Kushite characters are painted similar shades of brown.
You may also remember that people like Cass tend to post *this* picture
To "prove" the Aegyptians weren't black and infact had antiblack race prejudice. The one I posted is the *real* version of that badly photoshopped image.
More addition info:
quote:Istituto Superiore d'Arte Venturi - esperienze didattiche - Visita al Museo Civico Archeologico di Bologna, Sezione Egizia
L'esperienza di visita al museo egizio č nata dalla necessitŕ di far vedere agli alunni manufatti simili a quelli studiati, per tradurre l’esperienza astratta della lezione in classe a quella piu’ concreta dell’esperienza diretta.
La visita, realizzata nel dicembre 2012, č stata pensata a conclusione di un percorso di studio fatto sull’arte e sulla civiltŕ egizia.
La sezione egiziana del Museo Archeologico di Bologna, che comprende circa 3500 oggetti, č una delle piů significative d’Italia e d'Europa. Essa č costituita in gran parte dai materiali raccolti dal pittore Pelagio Palagi, ceduti al Municipio di Bologna nel 1861, dopo la sua morte. Questa raccolta si arricchisce nel 1881 di un centinaio di oggetti provenienti dal Regio Museo dell’Universitŕ e, negli anni successivi, di altre collezioni minori o saltuarie acquisizioni. L’intera collezione č stata riallestita nel 1994 secondo nuovi criteri espositivi. La sezione č suddivisa in tre settori: il primo comprende i rilievi della necropoli di Saqqŕra, il secondo espone i materiali in ordine cronologico a partire dalle origini della storia egiziana fino all’epoca romana, il terzo illustra alcuni aspetti fondamentali della societŕ faraonica, come la scrittura, il culto funerario e la magia.
Video-presentazione: Vittoria Maiocco, docente di storia dell’arte classe 1D dell'ISA Venturi di Modena foto di Lia Ferracini, 1D
quote: Civic Museum of Bologna - Egyptian Section Visit the 1D
December 2012 Civic Archaeological Museum of Bologna, Egyptian Section Via dell'Archiginnasio 2
The 1D visit the Egyptian Museum of Bologna - Collection Pelagio Palagi
The experience of visiting the Egyptian museum was born from the need to show pupils similar articles to those studied, to translate the abstract experience of the lesson in the classroom to the more 'concrete experience direct.
The visit, conducted in December 2012, was conceived at the conclusion of a study done on art and Egyptian civilization.
The Egyptian section of the Archaeological Museum of Bologna, which includes about 3,500 items, is one of the most important in Italy and Europe. It is made largely from material collected by the painter Pelagio Palagi, transferred to the Municipality of Bologna in 1861, after his death. This collection is enriched in 1881 with a hundred objects from the Royal Museum of the University and, in subsequent years, other smaller collections or occasional acquisitions. The entire collection has been set up again in 1994 according to new exhibition criteria. The section is divided into three sections: the first includes the findings of the necropolis of Saqqara, the second presents the material in chronological order starting from the origins of Egyptian history until Roman times, the third illustrates some fundamental aspects of pharaonic society, as writing, the funeral cult and magic.
Video presentation: Maiocco victory, art history teacher Class 1D ISA Venturi in Modena photos of Lia Ferracini, 1D
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: What I stated was meant in broader terms of interaction between groups. I have explained why it is not a strange possibility. That is the answer, but it doesn't sit well with you, obviously. Despite your lack on ethnography and history of Africa. The Kpelle is not even of my concern here.
Dude, I know there are West African immigrants in Sudan, that's why I asked whether it was really true. But here we are however many posts later and you haven't answered the question. If you don't know the answer just say so.
Heck, it doesn't even matter at all, I was just curious.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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posted
Ish I posted the complete image WITH the adjacent panels that still have remnants of the paint on them. Your image only shows the small subset where its already gone. Try scrolling up. There's a reason they either show the photoshop or the colorless panel and not the rest of that wall.
Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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posted
BTW, I called the AE Black African in my OP because I wanted to use a recognizable term that conveyed not only their indigenous African heritage but also their dark skin. I understand why some posters like Swenet have chosen to abscond it entirely and respect their decision, and I additionally agree with Punos_Rey that the goalposts for blackness tend to get shifted in these arguments. On the other hand, I can tell that the objection people like Casshole have to characterizing AEs as black goes beyond mere semantic implications since they deny AE were darker-skinned to begin with. In the end, whatever language you want to use, I see AEs as (predominantly) dark-skinned native Africans.
posted
^^ When I looked at the history of the major tribes I was just looking at plausibility. If they said it I marked it down. The only thing that gave me pause were people tracking their history to Egypt so they could be the Jews of the Bible. I didnt see much of that though.
I found no trace of Kpelle in the Sudan today so it could all be smoke but the thing is, its a lot of smoke.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausa_people
quote: The Hausa are culturally and historically closest to the Fulani, the Zarma and Songhai (in Tillabery, Tahoua and Dosso in Niger) the Kanuri and Shuwa Arab (in Chad, Sudan and northeastern Nigeria); Tuareg (in Agadez, Maradi and Zinder); the Gur and Gonja (northeastern Ghana, northern Togo and upper Benin); Gwari (in central Nigeria), and Mandinka and Soninke who border them to the west of their traditional areas, in Mali, Senegal, Gambia, Ivory Coast and Guinea. Migrants from these areas were introducing Islam to many of the Hausa by the 14th century, although Islam itself has had a presence in Hausaland as early as the 11th century. [14] [15]
All of these groups live in the Sahel, Saharan and Sudanian regions, and as a result have influenced each other's cultures to varying degrees.
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassa_people_(Liberia)
quote: The Bassa people have a Kemetic origin, are people who likely left Egypt in early medieval era and migrated south then west, sometime after the collapse of Adbassa Empire and the invasion of the Persians in 6th-century.[8] Some of them reached coastal West Africa and other parts including Liberia, Sierra Leone, Togo and Nigeria, Senegal while others settled in central African region of Cameroon and Congo.
quote: According to the oral and documented history of the Tikar people, they originated in present-day Sudan. It is believed that when they inhabited Sudan, they lived adjacent to two groups. The first group comprised of iron-makers/blacksmiths and carpenters in the Meroe Kindgom; this group (ancestors of the Mende people) later left the Sudan and moved west towards Lake Chad. They eventually traveled to the Mali Empire, and along with the town Fulani and Mande, founded the Kingdom of Mani. The second group - ancestors of the Fulani - arrived in the Sudan from Egypt and Ethiopia. These cattle and goat herders moved west to Lake Chad near present-day Cameroon, Niger, and Nigeria before traveling across West Africa. It is believed that when the ancestors of the Tikar were in the Sudan, they lived along the Nile River. There, they developed their cattle grazing, iron-making, horse riding, and fighting skills.
quote: The Dan originally came from the western Sudan region to the north, part of present-day Mali and Guinea. The location and movements of the Dan, Mano, and We can be reconstructed from as early as the 8th century , at which time the Dan and Mano were located in the savanna region of the northern Ivory Coast.[1] In the tenth century, political turmoil, population growth and land depletion caused the Dan to migrate south of the Nimba range and into the high forests.[2]
quote:Oral traditions of the ruling Abrade (Aduana) Clan relate that they originated from ancient Ghana. They migrated from the north, they went through Egypt and settled in Nubia (Sudan). Around 500AD (5th century), due to the pressure exerted on Nubia by Axumite kingdom of Ethiopia, Nubia was shattered, and the Akan people moved west and established small trading kingdoms.
I give credence to the fact that most to all of these tribes practice the same old African forms of circumcision.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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I've always said that my gripes with the term were never meant to dissuade people from using that term. But I have called out people who are using the term as a trojan horse. Although I think it might be better to fall back on that. Time is going to deal with people. Folks are walking around with an expiration date timer above their heads. They just don't know it.
posted
Here we go again. Black skin isn't black because it is not 'biologically' scientific enough.
Really?
So where does skin color come from if not biology?
People and their silly nonsense.
MTDNA and Haplogroups don't tell you skin color. That doesn't mean that skin color isn't a biological scientific fact of human nature. It is just harder to determine from ancient skeletons. So scientists make rough approximations based on multidisciplinary approaches. That doesn't mean that skin doesn't have color and cannot be described using standard color names.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Ancient Greek skin pigmentation categorization recognised two divisions on each continent (Africa, Europe), not just one. Instead Afro-loons want only "white" for Europe and "black" for Africa to match their pan-African politics. For the Greeks, white skin was restricted to northern Europe, while black skin to tropical Africa. Egyptians were not black, just like the Greeks did not regard themselves as white.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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posted
Yet didn't you earlier say there in fact were Black Egyptians???? Get your stories straight you nazi hick.
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Afaicmo Kpelle are a peripheral Mande group in Guinea, Liberia, and Cote d'Ivoire.
Cultural-linguistically the Kpelle cluster with some Mande like the Vai, Dan, and Mende.
These Mande could've moved from the Niger Basin before the Mali Empire eschewing the kind of political submission kingdoms and empires entail.
quote:Originally posted by capra:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: What I stated was meant in broader terms of interaction between groups. I have explained why it is not a strange possibility. That is the answer, but it doesn't sit well with you, obviously. Despite your lack on ethnography and history of Africa. The Kpelle is not even of my concern here.
Dude, I know there are West African immigrants in Sudan, that's why I asked whether it was really true. But here we are however many posts later and you haven't answered the question. If you don't know the answer just say so.
Heck, it doesn't even matter at all, I was just curious.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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I've always said that my gripes with the term were never meant to dissuade people from using that term. But I have called out people who are using the term as a trojan horse. Although I think it might be better to fall back on that. Time is going to deal with people. Folks are walking around with an expiration date timer above their heads. They just don't know it.
The way I see it, if anyone wants to use the dark skin and native African heritage of AEs in order to imply that they were completely coextensive in affinity with, say, Bakongo, they'd be arguing a a non-sequitur anyway. It'd be tantamount to saying Papuans would be biologically coextensive with either AE or Bakongo since they're also dark-skinned. In the end, the biological affinities of these populations are what they are. Saying the AE were black-skinned Africans is a separate animal from saying all Africans have to belong to one exclusive clade.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I've always said that my gripes with the term were never meant to dissuade people from using that term. But I have called out people who are using the term as a trojan horse. Although I think it might be better to fall back on that. Time is going to deal with people. Folks are walking around with an expiration date timer above their heads. They just don't know it.
The way I see it, if anyone wants to use the dark skin and native African heritage of AEs in order to imply that they were completely coextensive in affinity with, say, Bakongo, they'd be arguing a a non-sequitur anyway. It'd be tantamount to saying Papuans would be biologically coextensive with either AE or Bakongo since they're also dark-skinned. In the end, the biological affinities of these populations are what they are. Saying the AE were black-skinned Africans is a separate animal from saying all Africans have to belong to one exclusive clade.
And make no mistake about it. Some who use the term WANT a built-in non-sequitur and have it go unnoticed. Some deliberately don't want to clear it up. Since laypeople's mind will automatically evoke certain Africans when they hear 'black' it's a safe way to evoke that association without having to commit to it verbally. It's a safe way to manipulate people and still have that "exclusively pigmentation" way out when called out.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Here we go again. Black skin isn't black because it is not 'biologically' scientific enough.
Really?
So where does skin color come from if not biology?
People and their silly nonsense.
MTDNA and Haplogroups don't tell you skin color. That doesn't mean that skin color isn't a biological scientific fact of human nature. It is just harder to determine from ancient skeletons. So scientists make rough approximations based on multidisciplinary approaches. That doesn't mean that skin doesn't have color and cannot be described using standard color names.
the scientific name for this color is brown, stop playin
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: ^^ When I looked at the history of the major tribes I was just looking at plausibility. If they said it I marked it down. The only thing that gave me pause were people tracking their history to Egypt so they could be the Jews of the Bible. I didnt see much of that though.
I found no trace of Kpelle in the Sudan today so it could all be smoke but the thing is, its a lot of smoke.
Yeah, I kinda agree. Even though a lot of it is unreferenced stuff on the Internet, there's multiple versions, etc, still there's a heck of a lot of it.
Quite a few of these stories seem to involve a legendary founder figure who marries a local girl and founds a dynasty or whatever. So small-scale but culturally influential migration. That maybe you could test by looking at uniparental lineages of certain clans, royal families and so forth. And the results would be interesting whether you found a connection to Sudan/Egypt/Yemen/wherever or not.
But if we are talking about whole peoples migrating, I don't see how the heck it works. Sudan is genetically distinct from West Africa, and yet also very diverse, not like the genetically West African people only would leave and the rest remain. And in terms of languages you'd need pretty much the entire population of West Africa to be wholesale recent arrivals.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Yet didn't you earlier say there in fact were Black Egyptians???? Get your stories straight you nazi hick.
1% of Swedes are black haired, does that make the average Swede black haired? Your trolling isn't even funny.
I never denied the existence of black skinned Egyptians or white skinned Greeks as individuals, but the average Egyptian was not black, nor the average Greek, white.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: @ Punos_Rey
Egypt actually can get some very high UV depending on the time of year. It may fluctuate more than the equatorial regions over the year for sure, but during the Northern Hemisphere summer it can still get extremely high. So retaining ancestral "black" skin in that kind of environment would still be preferable to the kind of depigmentation that Casshole wants.
This is the UV index in Africa as of today:
BTW this is the maximum amount of UV that different places around the world can receive:
Its irrelevant. Go take a look at UV index forecast of England today using your first link. Its 8 in southeast England and 7 near everywhere else because its a heat-wave. But these high to very high UV-index values are not common, but rare:
quote:The UV index does not exceed 8 in the UK (8 is rare; 7 may occur on exceptional days, mostly in the two weeks towards the end of June).
UV index 1-2 Low 3-5 Moderate 6-7 High 8-10 Very high 11 Extreme
What I posted was the mean annual UV-index, not a single day. Today England is 7-8, when its yearly average is 3.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: ...People with tropical adaptations live in the Sahara and always have. Tropical adaptations are often still fair adaptive features to nearby subtropical areas. Egyptian culture was also the daughter of Sudan which is in the tropics. Egypt had a lengthy relationship to people in Sudan. Southern Egypt is in the tropics.
A small portion of southern Egypt today is in the tropics; it wasn't millennia ago. The ancient southern border of Egypt was 200 km more north than it is today.
And we've been over this 100 times, ancient Egyptians were not overall tropically adapted; you can only describe Upper Egyptians as this if you cherry-pick certain post-cranial indices.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: BTW, I called the AE Black African in my OP because I wanted to use a recognizable term that conveyed not only their indigenous African heritage but also their dark skin. I understand why some posters like Swenet have chosen to abscond it entirely and respect their decision, and I additionally agree with Punos_Rey that the goalposts for blackness tend to get shifted in these arguments. On the other hand, I can tell that the objection people like Casshole have to characterizing AEs as black goes beyond mere semantic implications since they deny AE were darker-skinned to begin with. In the end, whatever language you want to use, I see AEs as (predominantly) dark-skinned native Africans.
So why have many archaeologists, classicists and anthropologists come to the same conclusion that ancient Egyptians were on average light brown, with a darker (medium-brown) shade towards the border of Nubia? See the Snowden (1997) quote on the other page.
Do you remember when your buddy (EgalitarianJay) contacted Joseph Graves? He was expecting him to say AE's were on average black in pigmentation, instead he said they weren't. Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:The pigmentation of the Egyptians was usually a brunet white; in the conventional figures the men are represented as red, the women often as lighter, and even white. Although the hair is almost inevitably black or dark brown, and the eyes brown.
quote:The Mediterranean pigmentation of the Egyptians has probably not greatly changed during the last five thousand years.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: What I stated was meant in broader terms of interaction between groups. I have explained why it is not a strange possibility. That is the answer, but it doesn't sit well with you, obviously. Despite your lack on ethnography and history of Africa. The Kpelle is not even of my concern here.
Dude, I know there are West African immigrants in Sudan, that's why I asked whether it was really true. But here we are however many posts later and you haven't answered the question. If you don't know the answer just say so.
Heck, it doesn't even matter at all, I was just curious.
What I explained is / was that it is possible. I explained how it is possible and what makes it possible.
I don't know the details about the Kpelle. But if that is what they write about them, it shouldn't be that strange.
quote:Originally posted by capra:
Sudan is genetically distinct from West Africa, and yet also very diverse, not like the genetically West African people only would leave and the rest remain. And in terms of languages you'd need pretty much the entire population of West Africa to be wholesale recent arrivals.
This is not entirely true. There is a variety of genetic traces from the Sudan in West Africa and even linguistically it's verifiable, which confirms these "legends".
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Ish I posted the complete image WITH the adjacent panels that still have remnants of the paint on them. Your image only shows the small subset where its already gone. Try scrolling up. There's a reason they either show the photoshop or the colorless panel and not the rest of that wall.
Yeah, I see it. I overlooked it the first time.
I have seen fragments of the panel in Egypt. It's weird though.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: BTW, I called the AE Black African in my OP because I wanted to use a recognizable term that conveyed not only their indigenous African heritage but also their dark skin. I understand why some posters like Swenet have chosen to abscond it entirely and respect their decision, and I additionally agree with Punos_Rey that the goalposts for blackness tend to get shifted in these arguments. On the other hand, I can tell that the objection people like Casshole have to characterizing AEs as black goes beyond mere semantic implications since they deny AE were darker-skinned to begin with. In the end, whatever language you want to use, I see AEs as (predominantly) dark-skinned native Africans.
As explained years ago, the term black should be no problem. Black comes in many shades and is / was at many places. Black is a metaphor for brown skin color.
This (black variable) however should be credited to the black people from the region. Namely Southern Egypt / Northern Sudan.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: ^^ When I looked at the history of the major tribes I was just looking at plausibility. If they said it I marked it down. The only thing that gave me pause were people tracking their history to Egypt so they could be the Jews of the Bible. I didnt see much of that though.
I found no trace of Kpelle in the Sudan today so it could all be smoke but the thing is, its a lot of smoke.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausa_people
quote: The Hausa are culturally and historically closest to the Fulani, the Zarma and Songhai (in Tillabery, Tahoua and Dosso in Niger) the Kanuri and Shuwa Arab (in Chad, Sudan and northeastern Nigeria); Tuareg (in Agadez, Maradi and Zinder); the Gur and Gonja (northeastern Ghana, northern Togo and upper Benin); Gwari (in central Nigeria), and Mandinka and Soninke who border them to the west of their traditional areas, in Mali, Senegal, Gambia, Ivory Coast and Guinea. Migrants from these areas were introducing Islam to many of the Hausa by the 14th century, although Islam itself has had a presence in Hausaland as early as the 11th century. [14] [15]
All of these groups live in the Sahel, Saharan and Sudanian regions, and as a result have influenced each other's cultures to varying degrees.
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassa_people_(Liberia)
quote: The Bassa people have a Kemetic origin, are people who likely left Egypt in early medieval era and migrated south then west, sometime after the collapse of Adbassa Empire and the invasion of the Persians in 6th-century.[8] Some of them reached coastal West Africa and other parts including Liberia, Sierra Leone, Togo and Nigeria, Senegal while others settled in central African region of Cameroon and Congo.
quote: According to the oral and documented history of the Tikar people, they originated in present-day Sudan. It is believed that when they inhabited Sudan, they lived adjacent to two groups. The first group comprised of iron-makers/blacksmiths and carpenters in the Meroe Kindgom; this group (ancestors of the Mende people) later left the Sudan and moved west towards Lake Chad. They eventually traveled to the Mali Empire, and along with the town Fulani and Mande, founded the Kingdom of Mani. The second group - ancestors of the Fulani - arrived in the Sudan from Egypt and Ethiopia. These cattle and goat herders moved west to Lake Chad near present-day Cameroon, Niger, and Nigeria before traveling across West Africa. It is believed that when the ancestors of the Tikar were in the Sudan, they lived along the Nile River. There, they developed their cattle grazing, iron-making, horse riding, and fighting skills.
quote: The Dan originally came from the western Sudan region to the north, part of present-day Mali and Guinea. The location and movements of the Dan, Mano, and We can be reconstructed from as early as the 8th century , at which time the Dan and Mano were located in the savanna region of the northern Ivory Coast.[1] In the tenth century, political turmoil, population growth and land depletion caused the Dan to migrate south of the Nimba range and into the high forests.[2]
quote:Oral traditions of the ruling Abrade (Aduana) Clan relate that they originated from ancient Ghana. They migrated from the north, they went through Egypt and settled in Nubia (Sudan). Around 500AD (5th century), due to the pressure exerted on Nubia by Axumite kingdom of Ethiopia, Nubia was shattered, and the Akan people moved west and established small trading kingdoms.
I give credence to the fact that most to all of these tribes practice the same old African forms of circumcision.
There are quite a few ethnic groups (tribes) who claim they came from the Middle East or Egypt (Northeast Africa). It could be they refer to the ancestral admixture in these legendary stories.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: Ancient Greek skin pigmentation categorization recognised two divisions on each continent (Africa, Europe), not just one. Instead Afro-loons want only "white" for Europe and "black" for Africa to match their pan-African politics. For the Greeks, white skin was restricted to northern Europe, while black skin to tropical Africa. Egyptians were not black, just like the Greeks did not regard themselves as white.
It is white who make those claims. Typical euroloon blaming other for your own imperfections.
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Yet didn't you earlier say there in fact were Black Egyptians???? Get your stories straight you nazi hick.
True. He stated something like: "Southern Egyptian relate more to Southen people and North (upper) more to non-African.".
The dude is bat-**** crazy, constantly contradicting himself.
When eventually cornered, he than tries to claim Sahara populations as non-black. Which is of course hilarious.
Source after source tells us the origin lies at Central Sudan. Than North Sudan, than eventually Sourth Egypt into the North.
These two reasons - navigation obstacles and restricted floodplain - are the most important reasons why this part of the Nile is thinly populated and why the historic border between Egypt in the north and Nubia or Sudan in the south is the First Cataract at Aswan.
"Ancient Egyptians, like their modern descendants, varied in complexion from a light Mediterranean type, to a light brown in Middle Egypt, to a darker brown in southern Egypt." (Snowden, 1997)
Punos misread it, like you.
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: So since dark brown = black per Cassdom, Upper Egyptians were black? Seems like we've finally come full circle.
What Snowden says is "a darker brown", not "dark brown" (black). I never contradicted myself, its just you Afro-loons cannot read; Snowden describes southern Egyptians as medium brown, not dark brown.
"Ancient Egyptians, like their modern descendants, varied in complexion from a light Mediterranean type, to a light brown in Middle Egypt, to a darker brown in southern Egypt." (Snowden, 1997)
Punos misread it, like you.
quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: So since dark brown = black per Cassdom, Upper Egyptians were black? Seems like we've finally come full circle.
What Snowden says is "a darker brown", not "dark brown" (black). I never contradicted myself, its just you Afro-loons cannot read; Snowden describes southern Egyptians as medium brown, not dark brown.
posted
"As to the physical characteristics of the ancient Egyptians, both iconographie and written evidence differentiated between the physical traits of Egyptians and the populations south of Egypt. The art of ancient Egypt frequently painted Egyptian men as reddish brown, women as yellow, and people to the south as black." - Snowden, 1997
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: "As to the physical characteristics of the ancient Egyptians, both iconographie and written evidence differentiated between the physical traits of Egyptians and the populations south of Egypt. The art of ancient Egypt frequently painted Egyptian men as reddish brown, women as yellow, and people to the south as black." - Snowden, 1997
Still running from the questions I see. lol Why, euronut?
Anyway, how come these depictions look similair to the modern day population from the South? A population who describes themselves as black.
Sheikh Abd El Qurnah Necropolis
quote:"The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix. As there is no significance testing that is available to be applied to this form of Mahalanobis distances, the biodistance scores must be interpreted in relation to one another, rather than on a general scale. In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian).
These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2). Aside from these interpopulation relationships, some Nubian groups are still more similar to other Nubians and some Egyptians are more similar to other Egyptian samples. Moreover, although the Nubian and Egyptian samples formed one well-distributed group, the Egyptian samples clustered in the upper left region, while the Nubians concentrated in the lower right of the plot. One line can be drawn that would separate the closely dispersed Egyptians and Nubians. The predynastic Egyptian samples clustered together (Badari and Naqada), while Gizeh most closely groups with the Lisht sample. The first two principal coordinates from PCO account for 60% of the variation in the samples. The graph from PCO is basically a pictorial representation of the distance matrix and interpretations from the plot mirror the Mahalanobis D2 matrix."
--Godde K.
An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?
Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: The study on the partial calvarium discovered at Manot Cave, Western Galilee, Israel (dated to 54.7 ± 5.5 kyr BP, Hershkovitz et al. 2015), revealed close morphological affinity with recent African skulls as well as with early Upper Paleolithic European skulls, but less so with earlier anatomically modern humans from the Levant (e.g., Skhul). The ongoing fieldwork at the Manot Cave has resulted in the discovery of several new hominin teeth. These include a lower incisor (I1), a right lower first deciduous molar (dm1), a left upper first deciduous molar (dm1) and an upper second molar (M2) all from area C (>32 kyr) and a right upper second molar (M2) from area E (>36 kyr). The current study presents metric and morphological data on the new Manot Cave teeth. These new data combined with our already existing knowledge on the Manot skull may provide an important insight on the Upper Paleolithic population of the Levant, its origin and dietary habits.
—Author(s): Rachel Sarig ; Ofer Marder ; Omry Barzilai ; Bruce Latimer ; Israel Hershkovitz
The Upper Paleolithic inhabitants of Manot Cave: the dental perspective (Year: 2017)
quote:Originally posted by Cass/: "As to the physical characteristics of the ancient Egyptians, both iconographie and written evidence differentiated between the physical traits of Egyptians and the populations south of Egypt. The art of ancient Egypt frequently painted Egyptian men as reddish brown, women as yellow, and people to the south as black." - Snowden, 1997
I'm going to keep posting the brown Nubians and brown Ramses 2 and sons until it sticks through to your Nazi skull
But I guess we're to believe all Egyptian men were literally red, all egyptian women were yellow chickens, and everyone southwards pitch black. We'll just ignore all the art that shows brown Egyptian women, Brown Libyans, Pitch black Egyptian men, and Red/Yellow Nubians.
And you can always find a steppinfetchit that'll do anything to cater to a Eurocentric worldview for acceptance. I'm supposed to be impressed that Snowden was black? Him being black makes his statements unassailable because they back you up? Please. Who next? Clarence Walker?
Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Cass/: "As to the physical characteristics of the ancient Egyptians, both iconographie and written evidence differentiated between the physical traits of Egyptians and the populations south of Egypt. The art of ancient Egypt frequently painted Egyptian men as reddish brown, women as yellow, and people to the south as black." - Snowden, 1997
I'm going to keep posting the brown Nubians and brown Ramses 2 and sons until it sticks through to your Nazi skull
But I guess we're to believe all Egyptian men were literally red, all egyptian women were yellow chickens, and everyone southwards pitch black. We'll just ignore all the art that shows brown Egyptian women, Brown Libyans, Pitch black Egyptian men, and Red/Yellow Nubians.
And you can always find a steppinfetchit that'll do anything to cater to a Eurocentric worldview for acceptance. I'm supposed to be impressed that Snowden was black? Him being black makes his statements unassailable because they back you up? Please. Who next? Clarence Walker?
If supposed Arabs; as he claims mixed with people in the South thousands of years before, this destroys his euronut narrative once again. The more he post the funnier it becomes. It's because he lack critical thinking skills.
I wonder how King Seti I for example is described?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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You know very well what you're doing. And I'm definitely not going to entertain you on this topic again. Not after that slip up.
Why not address what I said instead of trying to divert to your own straw man arguments? I said that skin color is as much a biological trait as any other. Therefore to claim that characterizing and describing skin color as not part of valid scientific investigation is false. And doing such an investigation does not imply that skin color equals race because it doesn't, no more than arm hair length determines race.
Why don't you focus on that instead of trying to spin your way out of it?
As for that reference link you posted, the POINT was that the skin color of the mummy case and reconstruction are subjective and not taking account the physical features of the remains which would be a good potential indicator of skin color based on similar other populations with the similar characteristics. Meaning if other Africans with similar skeletal and cranial features have black skin then the reconstruction should as well. The point being that skulls don't have skin color so you have to use multidisciplinary approaches based on various factors to make such a determination. That does not mean that skin color equals race....
Don't pretend you didn't understand that.
Or stop trying to pretend that the discussion of the biological fact of skin color equals a discussion of race. Skin color is based on genetics as much as any other feature of the human body.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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You know very well what you're doing. And I'm definitely not going to entertain you on this topic again. Not after that slip up.
Why not address what I said instead of trying to divert to your own straw man arguments? I said that skin color is as much a biological trait as any other. Therefore to claim that characterizing and describing skin color as not part of valid scientific investigation is false. And doing such an investigation does not imply that skin color equals race because it doesn't, no more than arm hair length determines race.
Why don't you focus on that instead of trying to spin your way out of it?
His point is you were caught out using the term 'black' to refer to non-pigmentation facial traits. So you racialize the term. 'Black' to you clearly isn't only skin colour, for example you were calling non-painted statues 'black' based on their facial features.
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
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