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Author Topic: were the original moors black?
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Four Studies of a Head of a Moor

Peter Paul Rubens

1640
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Marino Sanuto; Liber Secretorum Fidelium Crucis

Horsemen and Boatmen

Italy (1321)
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"A more, or black-a-more; more, ethiopien; negre; moro, negro, etiopo; moro, morisco, negro" Lexicon Tetraglotton, an English-French-Italian-Spanish Dictionary 1660
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Las Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X the Wise (1221–1284) (256 fols.), Cant. CXCII: “Como o ome bono contendia con seu mouro polo tornar crischano.

a moor converted to Christianity
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"maurus: a black moor"Thesaurus Linguæ Latinæ Compendiarius : Or A Compendious ..., Volume 2
By Robert Ainsworth 1808

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"maurus: niger, obscurus"A Large Dictionary: In Three Parts
By Thomas Holyoke 1677

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"maurus, ethiops: certain black moors which eat serpents" Dictionarie, Corrected and Augmented with the Addition of Many Hundred Words ...
By John Rider 1640

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"moro: uomo nero, maurus, ethiops" Nuovo vocabolario osia raccolta di vocaboli italiani, e latini a norma dell ... 1795

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"moro, uomo nero d'etiopia, etiops" Vocabolario italiano e latino, Volume 1 1742

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"Mohr: il moro, il nero, l'etiopo" Nuovo vocabolario italiano-tedesco neues deutsch-italiänisches ..., Volume 2
By Bartolommes Borroni 1799

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"mohr: moor, neger, swart" Handwoordenboek der Hoog- en Nederduitsche talen
By Johann Friedrich Fleischauer 1834

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School of Paolo Veronese

Portrait of a Moorish Woman

Italy (c. 1550s)
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Moor (n.)
"North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.

____________________________________________________

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
were the original moors black?

the problem here is the word "original"
You are applying it to people that never called themselves "moors"
So it is not who were the original moors, it's who started calling people that

 -

A number of sources call this painting Four Studies of the head of a Negro

https://books.google.com/books?id=BcVSqTA_cLcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=rubens+%22William+Anne+Capell%22+studies&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFiP_ovJnUAhVKSiYKH

Drawn by the Brush: Oil Sketches by Peter Paul Rubens
By Peter C. Sutton, Marjorie E. Wieseman, Nico van Hout

Fig 1

________________________________


I'm not sure if the above oil sketch was ever titled by Rubens and if somebody titled it later what the first title of it was. You have to do deeper research.
Jet black moors who are identified as moors for certain are easily found in Europeans coats of arms.
However jet black moors are not the only people that the Europeans have called moors. Even with the term "black" the Europeans would apply to both dark skinned Africans as well as sometimes to other Europeans who were only a light tint of brown

However those whole subject, who were the Moors has been dealt with in many many old threads, some I was in also also

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“From Africa too, there came countless tribes; the Nadabaræ, Gætulians, and Numidians, and from the scorching south, the people named Moors or Mauritanians, from the Greek word mauros, which means black.“ 12th century author of Itinerarium Peregrinorum et Gesta Regis Ricardi (Itinerary of Richard I and others to the Holy Land.) Chapter XXXVIII.

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i will let the quotes, pictures and definitions speak for themselves of the etymology of "moor"
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Moor (n.)
"North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.

____________________________________________________

quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
were the original moors black?

the problem here is the word "original"
You are applying it to people that never called themselves "moors"
So it is not who were the original moors, it's who started calling people that

 -

A number of sources call this painting Four Studies of the head of a Negro

https://books.google.com/books?id=BcVSqTA_cLcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=rubens+%22William+Anne+Capell%22+studies&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFiP_ovJnUAhVKSiYKH

Drawn by the Brush: Oil Sketches by Peter Paul Rubens
By Peter C. Sutton, Marjorie E. Wieseman, Nico van Hout

Fig 1

________________________________


I'm not sure if the above oil sketch was ever titled by Rubens and if somebody titled it later what the first title of it was. You have to do deeper research.
Jet black moors who are identified as moors for certain are easily found in Europeans coats of arms.
However jet black moors are not the only people that the Europeans have called moors. Even with the term "black" the Europeans would apply to both dark skinned Africans as well as sometimes to other Europeans who were only a light tint of brown

However those whole subject, who were the Moors has been dealt with in many many old threads, some I was in also also

Mohr, moor, black man and negro means the same thing

"mohr: moor, neger, swart" Handwoordenboek der Hoog- en Nederduitsche talen
By Johann Friedrich Fleischauer 1834

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"Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ...
By John Ebers 1798

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"moor: a native of Mauritania in Africa, a black moor"An universal etymological English dictionary ... The twentieth edition, etc
By Nathan BAILEY

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• |leatior at circa facies, agitata ferarum agmina venatu et caelata mapalia fulgent. nec procul usta cutem nigri soror horrida mauri assuetas mulcet patrio sermone leaenas.|436-440 “hard by was a happier scene- herds of wild beasts chased by hunters, and huts, carved in shinning metal. Not far away the savage black Moorish sister soothed lionesses, and her companions, with her native speech.” punica II 439
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
"Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ...
By John Ebers 1798

So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
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"mohr: moor, negro" New and Complete English-German and German-English Pocket ..., Volumes 1-2
By Leonhard Tafel 1881

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
"Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ...
By John Ebers 1798

So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
Ethiopians (Sudanese) were involved with the conquest
so yes technically it could be interpreted as a Ethiopian invasion

but moor also means "negro"

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
"Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ...
By John Ebers 1798

So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
Ethiopians (Sudanese) were involved with the conquest
so yes technically it could be interpreted as a Ethiopian invasion

but moor also means "negro"

Does it mean Negro or Ethiopian?

does fruit mean apple?

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
"Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ...
By John Ebers 1798

So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
Ethiopians (Sudanese) were involved with the conquest
so yes technically it could be interpreted as a Ethiopian invasion

but moor also means "negro"

Does it mean Negro or Ethiopian?

does fruit mean apple?

both
•‘’the people of this country (Mauritania) are Ethiopic: and they are in stature the largest of any nation with which we are acquainted’’ periplus scylax caryandensis v1 pg 54

apple is a fruit
similar to moor is a negro

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"Moor: A negro; a blackamoor" Pantologia: A New Cabinet Cyclopaedia, Comprehending a Complete Series of ...

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"moor: hum preto,hum negro" A dictionary of the Portuguese and English languages
By Antonio Vieyra 1813

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"moor:a negro" A Dictionary of the English Language: Answering at Once the Purposes of ...
By John Walker 1775

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"Negro: moor,neger"
"Moor: negro" The New Pocket Dictionary of the Dutch and English Languages: In Two Parts ...
By Baldwin Janson 1793

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"moor:[maurus] a black, a negro" The Synonymous, Etymological, and Pronouncing English Dictionary: In which ...
By William Perry (lecturer in the Academy at Edinburgh.)1805

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"morulus: some what like a blackamoor, black" Latin Dictionary: Morell's Abridgment
By Robert Ainsworth, Alexander Jamieson 1828

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Battle of Roncevaux between Roland and king Marsile
 -
"Although marsile has fled, his uncle marganice remains, he rules Carthage, Alfrere, Garmalie, and Ethiopia, an accursed land. He has the black people under his command, their noses are big and their ears are broad, and together they number more than fifty thousand" 143:1913-1919 The song of Roland

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A site elaborating on Leo Africanus.

http://www.leoafricanus.com/leo/index.html

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The battle of Puig as rendered in an altarpiece in the Victoria & Albert Museum
(notice the black moors)
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15th century depiction of Battle of Teba
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(notice the black moors)

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“...among the descendants of Sudan (blacks), son of Kana'an are many nations, of them the Ishban, the Zanj, and many people that multiplied in the Maghreb. (morocco)” Akbar al-Zaman 11th century Arabic text

^^^^
“Now the real fact, the fact which dispenses with all hypothesis, is this: the Berbers are the children of Canaan, the son of Ham, son of Noah. Their grandfather was named Mazyh...the Philistines children of Casluhim son of Misraim son of Ham were their relations...." Ibn Khaldun 15th century Andalusian North African.

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"And they carried off a great host of them [Mauritani] as captives to Erin, and these are the blue men [of Erin], for Mauri is the same as black man (Nigri), and Mauritania is the same as blackness. (Nigritudo)" the beginning of the reign of Fogartach| Fragmenta annalium hiberniae (Fragments of annals of Ireland) [869]

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
"Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ...
By John Ebers 1798

So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
Ethiopians (Sudanese) were involved with the conquest
so yes technically it could be interpreted as a Ethiopian invasion

but moor also means "negro"

Does it mean Negro or Ethiopian?

does fruit mean apple?

In German it means that both descriptors are the same and are exchangeable. The things is, you don't understand the German language, which is the root of Germanic languages.

Tafel, Leonhard, b. 1800. (orignal German source)


https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433069251720;view=1up;seq=258

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"A negro, ethiop, maurus (moor)" Latin Dictionary: Morell's Abridgment
By Robert Ainsworth, Alexander Jamieson

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sedeone an montibus erro, dum mecum Garamas et adustus corpora Maurus dividit italas| "Am i to do nothing, or to move from height to height, while Garamantians and burnt skinned moors share Italy with me" 266-268 Punica VIII

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^Nice sources.
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^^^^
much appreciation

there are even more sources like the above

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• “moorish faces of a horrible black color” | maura videbatur facies, nigro colore horrida|corippus, a byzantine writer in his book of johannidus I:245
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• “and I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black skinned like the moors, but very white in body and fair-haired, so much, then, for these things.” Procopius: history of the wars, IV. Xiii. 29

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The Moor

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All the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired, their horse's reins were like fire, their black faces were like pitch and the most handsome of them was as black as a cooking pan.
“Los moros de la hueste todos uestidos del sirgo et de los pannos de color que ganaran, las riendas de los sus cauallos tales eran como de fuego, las sus caras dellos negras como la pez, el mas fremoso dellos era negro como la olla"
DEL DUELLO DE LOS GODOS DE ESPANNA ET DE LA RAZÓN PORQUE ELLA FUE DESTROYADA from the book Primera Crónica General, Alfonso X El Sabio pg 47

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