quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: On an unrelated note:
What evidence is there that the Dinka are 1/3rd Bantu? This is repeated over and over again in some of the forums that I've recently frequented. Somalis apparently have a type of Dinka-like ancestry minus this apparent 1/3rd Bantu admixture.
Is this true?
Another irony is that they consider this SSA, instead of indigenous.
quote:Modern Egyptians share this profile but in addition show a marked increase of African mtDNA lineages L0L4 up to 20% (consistent with nuclear estimates of 80% non-African ancestry reported in Pagani et al.17).
However, there is genetic continuity, but not in the L lineages?
quote: Genetic continuity between ancient and modern Egyptians cannot be ruled out by our formal test despite this sub-Saharan African influx, while continuity with modern Ethiopians17, who carry >60% African L lineages, is not supported (Supplementary Data 5).
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: What evidence is there that the Dinka are 1/3rd Bantu? This is repeated over and over again in some of the forums that I've recently frequented. Somalis apparently have a type of Dinka-like ancestry minus this apparent 1/3rd Bantu admixture.
1/3 sounds excessive (more like 10-25%?), and not specifically Bantu but generically West-Central African/Niger-Congo. I think it's based mainly on ADMIXTURE results like here which I gather show up fairly consistently.
Awale would probably be the best one to ask.
Thanks for this response, Capra.
Beyoku seems to think that the "West-African" component in the Dinka may actually be the precursor. Beyoku's argument draws on the fact that there are no E1b1a lineages in South Sudan.
Would I be right to state that the Nilotics are the third oldest existing African group after the Khoisan and Hadza people?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
What about Niger-Congo speaking Mbo who have the oldest Y lineage?
I now understand why they only used 3 samples, so they can maintain the narrative to shift data when it suits.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Mbo are 86,000 member tribe from East Cameroon that moved to west Cameroon, some of them have YDNA unusually ancient 250ka~. They are mainly hunter-gatherers, now bushmeat hunters. There's a photo in ES. I think they have West African Pygmy traits, but not certain.
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: Fourty2tribes: "Isnt it Mbu? Who are Mbo?"
Mbo are 86,000 member tribe from East Cameroon that moved to west Cameroon, some of them have YDNA unusually ancient 250ka~. They are mainly hunter-gatherers, now bushmeat hunters. There's a photo in ES. I think they have West African Pygmy traits, but not certain.
Thanks. I looked up the Mbo people and mind blown.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: I think they have West African Pygmy traits, but not certain.
I am not sure what West African Pygmies are, can you elaborate?
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: Fourty2tribes: "Isnt it Mbu? Who are Mbo?"
Mbo are 86,000 member tribe from East Cameroon that moved to west Cameroon, some of them have YDNA unusually ancient 250ka~. They are mainly hunter-gatherers, now bushmeat hunters. There's a photo in ES. I think they have West African Pygmy traits, but not certain.
Thanks. I looked up the Mbo people and mind blown.
Here is basically everything you like to know, and if not can ask:
TL Dixon on the A00 Cameroon Research Project and Albert Perry's Y.
I am not sure what West African Pygmies are, can you elaborate? [/b]
Writing 'off the cuff' here: While East-Central African Pygmies are Mbuti & Efe, Central African Pygmies are Baka & Aka/Akka, and South-Central Pygmies are Mbatwa, the West African Pygmies are harder to delineate due in part to migrations and part to genetic & cultural admixture. Bacola/Bakola is one West African Pygmy group.
I am not sure what West African Pygmies are, can you elaborate?
Writing 'off the cuff' here: While East-Central African Pygmies are Mbuti & Efe, Central African Pygmies are Baka & Aka/Akka, and South-Central Pygmies are Mbatwa, the West African Pygmies are harder to delineate due in part to migrations and part to genetic & cultural admixture. Bacola/Bakola is one West African Pygmy group.
I am sorry but I have never heard of this. You're saying: "Bacola/Bakola is one West African Pygmy group"? From what part of West Africa did they migrate and when was this?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Migrate? Pygmies are (were) nomadic hunter - gatherer people, moving from camp to camp within the rainforest; they did not migrate from overpopulated/famine-struck villages to new areas along the periphery of the rainforest as did the Bantu agriculturalists.
I'm assuming that West Africa includes Cameroon, did you mean further west than that?
Migrate? Pygmies are (were) nomadic hunter - gatherer people, moving from camp to camp within the rainforest; they did not migrate from overpopulated/famine-struck villages to new areas along the periphery of the rainforest as did the Bantu agriculturalists.
I'm assuming that West Africa includes Cameroon, did you mean further west than that?
Cameroon is West Africa? Okay.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: A homeland, but not the homeland
"It seems increasingly likely that ancient DNA has identified a massive expansion, or a series of expansions, from Mesopotamia and/or surrounds in basically all directions dating to the Chalcolithic (ChL) and Bronze Age (BA). This phenomenon is mainly characterized by the simultaneous spread of:" - Iran_ChL-related genome-wide ancestry
- Y-haplogroup J
- South Caspian-specific mitochondrial haplogroups such as R2 and U7
At least two of these characteristics are shared by five groups that have appeared in the Near Eastern and African ancient DNA record as probable post-Neolithic newcomers, at least in part, at their respective sampling sites:
- Anatolia_BA, Western Turkey, 2836-1800 calBCE (Lazaridis et al. 2017)
quote:To resume, our results clearly reject the scenario put forward so far of a strict correlation between the Arab expansion in historical times and the overall pattern of distribution of J1-related chromosomes. Similarly, the causal association between STR-defined haplotypes and ethnic groups appear without any robust support, making its use inadequate for forensic or genealogical purposes. Instead, J1 variation provided the genetic background to correlate climatic changes to human demographic and socio-cultural events scarcely documented in the archaeological record the dispersal of hunter gatherers after the termination of glacial conditions in the late Pleistocene and the desertification-driven retreat of tribes of Saharan and Arabian foragers in the transition to a food-producing economy.
Sergio Tofanelli et al.
J1-M267 Y lineage marks climate-driven pre-historical human displacements
European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 1520 1524
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posted
Yup J is not native to the Levant, and J is Indo Iranian in origin. Pretty sure that is what David Reich proposes. So they could not have originally been Afro Asiatic speakers either. They would have been Indo European speakers, that is why Erhet is correct with the AA Urheimat in NE Africa and not the Levant.
Posts: 165 | From: Miami Beach, Florida | Registered: Jun 2017
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quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: Yup J is not native to the Levant, and J is Indo Iranian in origin. Pretty sure that is what David Reich proposes. So they could not have originally been Afro Asiatic speakers either. They would have been Indo European speakers, that is why Erhet is correct with the AA Urheimat in NE Africa and not the Levant.
I don't think you really grasped it, you need to read it a few more times, let it simmer in slowly.
J arose at the Southern part of the Sinai, Northeast Africa. And Iranians have a complex composition.
Instead, J1 variation provided the genetic background to correlate climatic changes to human demographic and socio-cultural events scarcely documented in the archaeological record the dispersal of hunter gatherers after the termination of glacial conditions in the late Pleistocene and the desertification-driven retreat of tribes of Saharan and Arabian foragers in the transition to a food-producing economy.
This is on the: "Complete Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in Iranians"
posted
Look, I don't mind being corrected when I am wrong
The first J1 men lived in the Late Upper Paleolithic, shortly before the end of the last Ice Age. The oldest identified J1 sample to date comes from Satsurblia cave (c. 13200 BCE) in Georgia (Jones et al. (2015)), placing the origins of haplogroup J1 in all likelihood in the region around the Caucasus, Zagros, Taurus and eastern Anatolia during the Upper Paleolithic.
Like many other successful lineages from the Middle East, J1 is thought to have undergone a major population expansion during the Neolithic period. Chiaroni et al. (2010) found that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 haplotypes was found in eastern Anatolia, near Lake Van in central Kurdistan. Eastern Anatolia and the Zagros mountains are the region where goats and sheep were first domesticated, some 11,000 years ago. Chiaroni et al. estimated that J1-P58 started expanding 9,000 to 10,000 years ago as pastoralists from the Fertile Crescent. Although they did not analyze the other branches, it is likely that all surviving J1a1b (L136) lineages share the same origin as goat and sheep herders from the Taurus and Zagros mountains.
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quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: Look, I don't mind being corrected when I am wrong
The first J1 men lived in the Late Upper Paleolithic, shortly before the end of the last Ice Age. The oldest identified J1 sample to date comes from Satsurblia cave (c. 13200 BCE) in Georgia (Jones et al. (2015)), placing the origins of haplogroup J1 in all likelihood in the region around the Caucasus, Zagros, Taurus and eastern Anatolia during the Upper Paleolithic.
Like many other successful lineages from the Middle East, J1 is thought to have undergone a major population expansion during the Neolithic period. Chiaroni et al. (2010) found that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 haplotypes was found in eastern Anatolia, near Lake Van in central Kurdistan. Eastern Anatolia and the Zagros mountains are the region where goats and sheep were first domesticated, some 11,000 years ago. Chiaroni et al. estimated that J1-P58 started expanding 9,000 to 10,000 years ago as pastoralists from the Fertile Crescent. Although they did not analyze the other branches, it is likely that all surviving J1a1b (L136) lineages share the same origin as goat and sheep herders from the Taurus and Zagros mountains.
I know about this, but the paper prior speaks of a genetic drift during the late Pleistocene. That's the thing here.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
All 166 samples from 151 mummified individuals [for details of the 90 individuals included in the later analysis, see Supplementary Data 1} used in this study were taken from two anthropological collections at the University of Tόbingen and the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection
These people where monsters, my god, smh....
Imagine a foreign people entering your country and desecrating the graves of your ancestors. They then transport the body parts to their homeland for the purpose of proving the inferiority and animal-like nature of your people. As appalling as it may sound, such a practice was common among scientists for many decades after the publication of Darwins On the Origin of Species.
In the early 1990s several articles drew attention to the murder and bodysnatching of the Australian Aborigines that occurred in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.1,2,3
According to one researcher, the graves of between 5000 and 10,000 Australian Aborigines were desecrated, their bodies dismembered or parts stolen to support a scientific trade.4 What many do not realize is this was not a geographically isolated phenomenon, but was occurring simultaneously in the German colonies in Africa, especially at the request of prominent racial scientists in Germany.
Felix von Luschan
If there were one German scientist most responsible for the trafficking of body parts in Africa it was Felix von Luschan. Though allegedly a monogenist (i.e. believing in a single origin for humans, as the Bible teaches) and often portrayed as an anti-racist, such views of Von Luschans, however, must have been only theoretical. He was a strong proponent of social Darwinism, especially in regard to the colonial institutions in Africa and the South Pacific to which he had strong connections.
The brotherhood of man is a good thing, but the struggle for life is a far better oneFelix von Luschan The brotherhood of man, wrote von Luschan, is a good thing, but the struggle for life is a far better one.5
One of von Luschans close contacts in Namibia was an experienced grave robberLieutenant Ralph Zurn, who on one occasion before the German war against the Herero people, ordered his men to exhume skulls from Herero graves at Okahandja.6 At the request of von Luschan, Zurn (when he returned to Germany) donated a Herero skull to von Luschans massive skull collection and eagerly aided von Luschan in his pursuit to procure more skulls from those that died in the Herero war.7
Von Luschan was also instrumental in procuring skulls from German East Africa.8
The Germans often acquired these skulls with the aid of the nativessometimes paying as little as a piece of soap, and in other regions, paying a full days wage.9 The Maji Maji War provided von Luschan with the best opportunity to acquire skulls. To the Governor of East Africa, von Luschan wrote:
I devotedly allow myself to inquire if there exists any possibility that the skulls might be dug up and sent to Berlin. If the opportunity to rescue for science a freshly severed head ever presents itself again, I would be most grateful if these heads would be treated with formaldehyde or in another appropriate way and sent to the Royal Museum. It would be of great scientific value if soft parts, especially the various tattoos, could be saved for posterity in a secure and unproblematic way.10 I have dissected thousands of corpses, but found no soul in anyRudolf Virchow Von Luschan had an intimate knowledge of what was occurring in the German colonies and let few opportunities slip through the cracks.
He wanted body parts from New Guinea (then a German colony), but that proved very difficult. However, some of the residents of New Guinea had been recruited to fight for Germany in East Africa. So he tried to get his specimens from the bodies of those killed in combat, though he only succeeded in obtaining two skeletons that way.11
Another means of acquiring the data for racial studies was through the colonial exhibitions. Each of the German colonies, in Africa and the South Pacific, recruited native people for freak shows or ethnological exhibitions, at which the people in Germany were supposed to witness for themselves the inferiority of blacks. Herero people arriving in Germany were made to discard their uniforms in the case of the men, and the Victorian dresses of the women. The Herero had adopted this European dress when they had converted to Christianity but were made to wear primitive clothing for the exhibitions.12
Wikimedia commons/Matt Crypto 9591-skull-mkwawa Rudolf Virchow had in his possession the skull of Mkwawa, the tribal leader of the Wahehe in East Africa. It is now on display at Mkwawa Memorial Museum in Tanzania. These also provided racial scientists in Germany with living material to study. Every native performer was required to let anthropologists measure their skulls and almost every other body part. Many of the natives refused to be measured, and refused to be photographed in their native attire, much to the indignation of von Luschan.
One native who was uncooperative was Bismarck Bell, a Cameroonian from the Duala tribe, whom von Luschan called, A delightful original and an incomparable mixture of idiot and trouser-nigger.13
The colonial exhibitions also provided German scientists with the fresh corpses they so desired when native people died. On one occasion all the Inuit performers died of smallpox, and scientists kept their performance props and at least one skull.14 And at the exhibition of 1896 two natives from Africa died ( murdered?) and the plan was for von Luschan to obtain the whole skeleton and Wilhelm Waldeyer to obtain the brains and other soft parts. Whether they actually obtained the bodies, though, is uncertain.15
Rudolf Virchow
Courtesy of U.S. National Library of Medicine 9591-rudolf-virchow Rudolf Virchow engaged numerous people to ship him freshly severed heads. Another culprit in the trafficking of human skulls was Rudolf Virchow who, though he opposed Darwins mechanism of evolution (preferring Lamarcks16), was a thorough-going materialist. He once said, I have dissected thousands of corpses, but found no soul in any.17 Virchow encouraged travellers to collect from prisons, battlefields, hospitals, and executions not only bones but salted skin and dried hands.18 He also encouraged travellers to ship to Berlin freshly severed heads. He preferred that the heads be shipped in zinc containers filled with alcohol, otherwise the removal of most of the flesh was necessary before shipping!19
In one of his lectures, Virchow expressed generous humanitarian feeling towards the natives, after which, without any sense of contradiction or impropriety, he told a story of how he acquired some of his skulls:
Thanks to the precious help of the government and of some travellers, I have been able to obtain until now some dozen skulls from our Eastern and Western African colonies Dr. Stuhlmann investigated on a spot where a fight took place between two tribes. One of his assistants collected a certain number of heads on the scene, packed them in a bag and had them carried on the back of a boy to Zanzibar. As one could expect, they banged and bumped against each other during the trip, and their condition, when they arrived in Berlin, left a lot to be desired. Such are the conditions with which one has to reckon.20 Virchow possessed an enormous skull collection, which included the skull of Mkwawathe tribal leader of the Wahehe in East Africa who committed suicide to avoid capture by the Germans.21 Shortly after his death his head was removed and shipped to Germany where it remained until its return in 1954. Today, the Berlin Museum of Natural History holds more than 6,000 human skulls, which includes Virchows collection as well as a portion of von Luschans.22
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posted
Nice posts, Andromeda2025. I saw this sources about a few weeks ago.
It is obvious something odd and fishy is going on, with these "Abusir mummies".
Cross post:
0411464
ARCHAEOLOGY. Relief with hieroglyphs at the entrance to the tomb of Amon Pen (Dynasty XIX), Abusir Necropolis, Egypt. Egyptian civilisation, New Kingdom, Dynasty XIX. Full credit: De Agostini / S. Vannini / Granger, NYC
quote: 3. IMPERIALIST ARCHAEOLOGY IN THE CANARY ISLANDS AND THE STUDIES ON PREHISTORIC COLONIZATION
The leading geostrategic role of the Archipelago itself in relation to the colonial partitioning of Africa by Europe, specially just after the Berlin Conference (1884-1885), is a factor that has to be taken into account when analysing the different approaches to the colonization of the islands developed at the time, since it was the motley framework of annexationist and imperialist interests that eventually made the islands an enclave coveted by certain European nations, specially by France and Germany, as we have already pointed out. The German and French presence in West Africa, next to the Canaries, turned the Archipelago into a geostrategic enclave, economically valuable (Farrujia 2005).
It was this set of circumstances that would, in fact, favour the development within the islands of an imperialist archaeology, with clear racist leanings, in which some foreign authors engaged in Canarian studies were involved. This was the case with the French authors Jean-Baptiste Bory de Saint-Vincent, Sabin Berthelot, Cesar Faidherbe and Renι Verneau and the German authors Franz von Lφher, Hans Meyer and Felix von Luschan.
3.3. The Aryan hypothesis
Contrary to the French authors, German scholars argued for an Aryan presence in the Canary Islands, and therefore an ancient link between Germany and the Archipelago. Franz von Lφher (1990 [1876]) insisted on the presence of Vandals in the islands (6th century) partly on the basis of archaeological evidence (stone huts), but mainly through philological arguments (considering the Guanche or indigenous language as a German dialect). The source he used as a basis for his description of the Germanic people and their comparison with the Guanches was De origine et situ Germanorum by Cornelius Tacitus, in which the Latin author explained the customs in the Germanic towns at the time of the Varian disaster. In relation to this text, it should be remembered that German academic tradition had in fact built its national identity around the Germanic tribes, on the basis of classic texts such as the one by this Latin author.
Other German authors, such as Hans Meyer (1896) and Felix von Luschan (1896) also argued for Aryan invasions, but from an anthropological point of view. According to them, the Armenian type, associated with Indo-Europeans (and therefore Aryans) was considered to be related to the indigenous Canarian people. In connection with the proposed relationship to the Armenian type, it is necessary to point out that the studies of Meyer and Luschan had in fact been developed at the same time as the rise of Germany in Egypt and Mesopotamia since, on the eve of the First World War, the Ottoman empire had become a political and economic arena of the first order. In fact, Luschan end up arguing, after developing his studies on the anthropological materials obtained from the campaigns in the Near East, that the first residents of Mesopotamia and Anatolia had been a brachycephalic Armenian type, with the Mediterranean dolichocephalics arriving after them. This justified the predominance of the Aryan presence in the territories of the Near East, and consequently legitimised the German right to occupy them3.
3 In the case of the Canary Islands, Luschan did not held this view explicitly. Nevertheless, do bear in mind that he was a firm patriot, nationalist and imperialist who supported the need for a German overseas empire and defended the utility of imperialist competition. This was why he adopted a pro-belligerent position when defending the imperialist interests of Germany in Africa (Zimmerman 2001: 46), and why he defended the Aryan presence in the Canary Islands. In the case of Franz von Lφher the imperialist ambitions were held explicitly, because as he wrote in the foreword to his book (Lφher 1876: 4), if the Guanches were German, they should be liberated sooner or later.
4.4. The German incidence
German imperialist archaeology had hardly any influence on the Canarian authors. Several factors influenced this situation: the language barrier, since hardly any Canarian intellectuals spoke German4, the absence lack of any links between German and Canarian academic circles, the contacts established between Canarian and French scholars and the early relationship established between the Guanches and the Cro-Magnon type and, consequently, with the French prehistoric environment. Therefore, the theoretical and methodological guidelines developed in German archaeology and anthropology did not have such a profound effect on the Canarian academic world, which was more open and receptive to the French scientific world. The works of authors like Franz von Lφher, Hans Meyer or Felix von Luschan on the Canaries were therefore unknown to most Canarian academics. Only some authors from the Islands referred to them, but without developing a critical reading of their works, an aspect doubtless influenced by a lack of knowledge of the German language5.
Josι Farrujia de la Rosa
Waiving the ancestors voices? Archaeology, politics and identity in the Canary Islands at the end of the 19th century
posted
Okay, I read the paper last month and what I found fishy about the study are actually only a couple things albeit very significant points.
One-- why are these Roman Era mummies used to represent all ancient Egyptians since presumably the founding of dynastic Egypt?? The authors then presume an "increase of Sub-Saharans" post-Roman times due the amount of said Sub-Saharan ancestry in modern Egyptians today.
By the way, recall how these Roman era Fayum mummies looked like when alive. Thus, the alleged Eurasian ancestry present including the SLC24A5 alleles are not at all surprising.
Second, why are the Yoruba people of Nigeria used as the model for modern Sub-Saharans when there are other SS Africans much closer to Egypt. I notice the PCA used a couple of Horn populations i.e. Ethiopian Jews and Somalis and I also see one Nilotic population- Dinka though I can't see how the Dinka figure into the graphs. What about ancient Sub-Saharans or other modern ethnic groups like Beja and modern Nubians??
For the record, unlike some here I don't deny that these mummies have any indigenous Egyptians ancestry I just question how their overall genome can be extrapolated to be the standard for all pharaonic Egyptians including those of Upper Egypt.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Finally, we used two methods to estimate the fractions of sub-Saharan African ancestry in ancient and modern Egyptians. Both qpAdm35 and the f4-ratio test39 reveal that modern Egyptians inherit 8% more ancestry from African ancestors than the three ancient Egyptians do, which is also consistent with the ADMIXTURE results discussed above.
Verena J. Schuenemann et al?
So, what was the purpose to test on SSA-DNA, done by Verena J. Schuenemann et al?
Source 35 appears to be, which is odd considering that ancient Egyptians spoke Afrasan:
"Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe"
So in conclusion, no accurate source for African populations was used to give a reasonable proximaty. This is on top of some unknown mummies, which came from the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection. Felix von Luschan a racist white man. And the claim is that these remains are from Abusir.
quote:
Colored dots indicate genetic diversity. Each new group outside of Africa represents a sampling of the genetic diversity present in its founder population. The ancestral population in Africa was sufficiently large to build up and retain substantial genetic diversity.
--Brenna M. Henna, L. L. Cavalli-Sforzaa,1, and Marcus W. Feldmanb,2
The great human expansion
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Okay, I read the paper last month and what I found fishy about the study are actually only a couple things albeit very significant points.
One-- why are these Roman Era mummies used to represent all ancient Egyptians since presumably the founding of dynastic Egypt?? The authors then presume an "increase of Sub-Saharans" post-Roman times due the amount of said Sub-Saharan ancestry in modern Egyptians today.
By the way, recall how these Roman era Fayum mummies looked like when alive. Thus, the alleged Eurasian ancestry present including the SLC24A5 alleles are not at all surprising.
Second, why are the Yoruba people of Nigeria used as the model for modern Sub-Saharans when there are other SS Africans much closer to Egypt. I notice the PCA used a couple of Horn populations i.e. Ethiopian Jews and Somalis and I also see one Nilotic population- Dinka though I can't see how the Dinka figure into the graphs. What about ancient Sub-Saharans or other modern ethnic groups like Beja and modern Nubians??
For the record, unlike some here I don't deny that these mummies have any indigenous Egyptians ancestry I just question how their overall genome can be extrapolated to be the standard for all pharaonic Egyptians including those of Upper Egypt.
Indeed source material tells us that pre-Egyptian and proto-Egyptians originated from the South, Sahara-Sahel region. So logically one would use these populations as proximity. If you're going to add West Africans. Why not use pastoral groups like Fulani, Tuareg etc from Nigeria or Chadic groups?
And in order to know that these mummies are indigenous we need to know the mummies first. This is unknown.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] Okay, I read the paper last month and what I found fishy about the study are actually only a couple things albeit very significant points.
One-- why are these Roman Era mummies used to represent all ancient Egyptians since presumably the founding of dynastic Egypt?? The authors then presume an "increase of Sub-Saharans" post-Roman times due the amount of said Sub-Saharan ancestry in modern Egyptians today.
quote: Here we present 90 mitochondrial genomes as well as genome-wide data sets from three individuals obtained from Egyptian mummies. The samples recovered from Middle Egypt span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the New Kingdom to the Roman Period.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] Okay, I read the paper last month and what I found fishy about the study are actually only a couple things albeit very significant points.
One-- why are these Roman Era mummies used to represent all ancient Egyptians since presumably the founding of dynastic Egypt?? The authors then presume an "increase of Sub-Saharans" post-Roman times due the amount of said Sub-Saharan ancestry in modern Egyptians today.
quote: Here we present 90 mitochondrial genomes as well as genome-wide data sets from three individuals obtained from Egyptian mummies. The samples recovered from Middle Egypt span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the New Kingdom to the Roman Period.
So, how is JK2888 explained?
So, who are these two modern-day populations?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I have one question, in regards to the "conspiracy"
...Do we classify these samples as "Random"?
It's difficult to say "conspiracy" and even "random". But do you know these mummies? The tomb number etc?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
"(a) Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup frequencies of three ancient and two modern-day populations"
To test for genetic differentiation and homogeneity we compared haplogroup composition, calculated FST-statistics28 and applied a test for population continuity29 (Supplementary Table 2, Supplementary Data 3,4) on mitochondrial genome data from the three ancient and two modern-day populations from Egypt and Ethiopia, published by Pagani and colleagues17, including 100 modern Egyptian and 125 modern Ethiopian samples (Fig. 3a).Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I have one question, in regards to the "conspiracy"
...Do we classify these samples as "Random"?
It's difficult to say "conspiracy" and even "random". But do you know these mummies? The tomb number etc?
The better question is, did the excavator know these mummies, their names, site numbers, ect. I ask that because, waving around the quantity isn't saying much about what/who these mummies represent.. All of that is dependent on us and what we can find out about the Site, the Excavators and the Mummies... but I'm sure if we look hard enough, regardless, we'll find some OG, A.Egyptian admixture in there. whether their representative or not.
PS: Ish, I don't think you should be going after the Authors for their methods and procedures. They released the raw data to the public...
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: I have one question, in regards to the "conspiracy"
...Do we classify these samples as "Random"?
It's difficult to say "conspiracy" and even "random". But do you know these mummies? The tomb number etc?
The better question is, did the excavator know these mummies, their names, site numbers, ect. I ask that because, waving around the quantity isn't saying much about what/who these mummies represent.. All of that is dependent on us and what we can find out about the Site, the Excavators and the Mummies... but I'm sure if we look hard enough, regardless, we'll find some OG, A.Egyptian admixture in there. whether their representative or not.
PS: Ish, I don't think you should be going after the Authors for their methods and procedures. They released the raw data to the public...
Those answers are in the Felix von Luschan collection, but there is no data on the Felix von Luschan collect pertaining Abusir. I only have done quick search on this, not the deep search.
The authors did use samples from this Felix von Luschan collection, so it is somewhat dubious they didn't tell us more about the mummies.
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The affinity to the Middle East finds further support by the Y-chromosome haplogroups of the three individuals for which genome-wide data was obtained, two of which could be assigned to the Middle-Eastern haplogroup J, and one to haplogroup E1b1b1 common in North Africa"
So only of the three had a Y-DNA haplogroup indigenous to Northeast Africa
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Those answers are in the Felix von Luschan collection, but there is no data on the Felix von Luschan collect pertaining Abusir. I only have done quick search on this, not the deep search.
The authors did use samples of this Felix von Luschan collection, so it is somewhat dubious. [/QB]
Priestergrδber und andere grabfunde vom ende des alten reiches bis zur griechischen zeit vom totentempel des Ne-user-rκ by Schδfer, Heinrich, 1868-; Grapow, Hermann, 1855-; Luschan, Felix von, 1854-; Schweinfurth, Georg August, 1836-1925
Priests and other grave finds from the end of the ancient empire to the Greek time from the dead temple of Ne-user-rκ By Schδfer, Heinrich, 1868-; Grapow, Hermann, 1855-; Luschan, Felix of, 1854-; Schweinfurth, Georg August, 1836-1925
Publication date 1908
In German
English translation below
ENGLISH VERSION
About four skulls from Abusir. By Prof. Dr. F. of Luschan.
I have been reluctant to report four individual skulls from Abusir on this subject. The times in which one could learn from the study of individual skulls are long past, and all salvation for the further development of our science not only, but also the possibility of general interesting results is to be expected only from the study of large series. There are, however, four skulls here, which belong to well-known persons of the middle empire, and are about four thousand years old. This may perhaps be an excuse for saying a few words about the skull itself, and thus a brief discussion of the aims and means of examining Egyptian skulls at all. P. 831. From the coffin of the priest En-hotp (mR1). Cranium of a man in maturer years, from predominantly dark yellow-brown coloration, to very small, completely insignificant defects perfectly preserved. The complete teeth are severely damaged, especially the first right molar in the upper jaw is so strongly abraded that the entire crown is missing. The adjacent two pre-molars are also abraded at an angle, so that on their inside there is hardly a small remainder of the crown. Since the corresponding teeth of the lower jaw are mended in a nearly horizontal plane, a very conspicuous gap results when the bite is closed; In any case, the severe ablation of the maxillary teeth is not due to that of the lower jaw, but perhaps by some individual custom of the priest who may have chewed hard and rough objects on the right side. Incidentally, both condyles of the lower jaw are diseased; They are highly atrophic and so porous that severe inflammatory phenomena are to be assumed. Apart from these not very unimportant pathological changes, the skull of En-hotp, however, proves to be very beautiful, well-formed, and of an almost feminine form. P. 834. From the coffin of the priest Hier-she-f-hotp (mR8). Cranium of dark yellow color, almost brown in color. Large, long, with persistent brow and therefore with strikingly wide forehead. The right temporal region is somewhat damaged, and all the front teeth are bruised; The two right incisors in the lower jaw have failed after death. The right lower wisdom tooth was already absent from intra vitam. The teeth obtained are uniformly sharpened. The seams are elapsed. This man also stood in mature years, but he was much larger and stronger than the priest En-hotp. Its lower jaw is slightly rocking and has a particularly high ascending branch. Particularly striking, however, is the very broad and very flat nasal root, which, with some certainty, suggests the admixture of negro blood. I will say a few words about the "negro1den" characteristics of ancient Egyptians at the end of this note. P. 832. From the coffin of Frau Nechet (mR1). Unusually beautiful, delicate and graciler skull of a woman in more mature years. The seams are all already closed or even completely elapsed. Behind the Bregma there is a flat furrow, which may be associated with premature synostosis of the anterior segment of the arrow seam. The unusually strong abrasion of the teeth is particularly striking in this skull; This has advanced much further than the priest En-hotp and at all as strong as is observed very rarely among civilized peoples. Among hundreds of ancient Egyptian skulls, I know only a few with similarly strong abrasion; In the case of several teeth, the pulp cavity is opened, which indicates the particular rapidity of the ablation, and the formation of large fistulae has also occurred in several cases. It is perhaps remarkable that there is no trace of any kind of dental treatment, although Madame Nechet, according to the noble form of her skull, had probably belonged to the higher classes of society. By the way, I have never seen anything on an ancient Egyptian skull, which would have suggested any dental interventions, although I have examined many hundreds of them. P. 833. Sit down from the coffin of the woman (mR1). Very heavy and rough skull of a woman in mature years. The great weight and the high-level congestion lines would almost have resulted in male sex. But the general form speaks rather for the determination than female, so there is no reason to doubt the correctness of the fundament. Moreover, the significant weight of the skull appears to be due to pathological conditions
1) The ancient races of the Thebaid, Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1905. 2) H. Stahr, the racial questions in ancient Egypt, Berlin-Leipzig 1907, treats a very and has excellent pictures, but is otherwise an attempt with inadequate means. Precious skull material The most important problems of physical anthropology are linked to the ancient Egyptians at all; Nor do we know where they originally came from and where their nearest relatives are to be found. It is only clear that they belong to the Hamites in language, and that they can be connected somatically to other Hamitic tribes as well as to real Arabs, H. To pure Semitic people, to the right Semites, and not to the superficially semitized and Arabic-speaking Syrians, who are undoubtedly the descendants of a pre-Semitic, "Hittite," or "Armenian" primordial population, with extremely short, high heads and very large noses. Furthermore, since the researches of Erman and Sethe, it seems clear that the two groups of languages, the Hamitic and the Semitic, are still more closely involved than had previously been assumed. The fact that the two circles are close to each other was already evident in Antiquity, to whom we have to thank the Genesis of Genesis, and Wilhelm Bleek, in his Bonn dissertation printed in 1851, showed that only these two groups of languages and the Indo-Germanic were grammatical Gender, while all other languages of our planet have remained at a lower stage of development. In addition, we are still completely ignorant. We can assume that these three groups of languages are so closely related to each other that they go back to a common origin, and that the development of the grammatical gender actually took place only once-but we do not know where this great achievement was really achieved- In Egypt or in Arabia, in Africa, in Western Asia or in Europe? Likewise, we are still quite unclear as to how the Hamitic peoples of the African north-border are interrelated. Their linguistic relationship, of course, is impeccable, but we know that they are markedly brunette in the east, while in the west they include a very large percentage of blond and blue-eyed elements. We know further that the old Guanches were blond, and we suspect the same of the old Western Europeans of the Cromagnon race. That these have become the bearers of our Northern European culture is not unlikely, but how far has the influence of the blondes extended to the east of North Africa? Where in space and time are the borders of the blond North Africans? No one can answer these questions securely today. In addition to linguistic work, the anthropological material, especially the skulls, will have to be appreciated more and more in order to bring light into these dark as interesting areas of human prehistory. From this point of view individual skulls are of value, not of course in themselves, but as individual building blocks, which, together with thousands of others, will provide us with a real and solid foundation for the investigation of the somatic relations of the North Europeans The ancient Egyptians.
Some skulls can be saved, and a small series can not in itself be valued, and therefore it is not a sacrificium intellectus to discuss a small series separately. Of the four skulls present here, however, general conclusions are not easy to draw - they have in themselves only a kind of social interest. It is not the connection with blond Hamites in the West and with Semitic Arabs in the East, which can come into question, but only their relationship with the dark frizzy neighbors in the south. I have already pointed out the Negro's flat and broad nostrils of the priest, Here-sche-f-hotp, but Frau Nechet is not entirely free from the suspicions of having had a negro blood. Of course, the soft parts, especially the cartilaginous nose, the lips, the color of the skin, and the more or less crimped texture of the hair, would be of great importance for such a consideration; But even when all the parts of the weel have disappeared, the bony skull may have "negroid" properties alone.Proposed dentition, small height of the face, great width of the zygomatic arch, small distance between the nose and throat, and the broad width of the pear-shaped opening The suspicion of negro blood, and the more of these individual qualities are found in one and the same skull, and the more they are pronounced, the more will such a suspicion become compelled to absolute certainty. Thomson and Mac Iver, in their above-mentioned great book, have attempted to find a metrical expression for such constriction of negro blood. They place most of the weight on the ratio of the height of the upper face to the yoke width and the height of the nose to the width of the pear-shaped opening, that is, to the upper-face index (10xOgh: Jb) and the nasal index (100xNb: Nh). They divide all their material from over 1500 ancient Egyptian skulls into three groups:
I. Negroide.
II. Pure Egyptian.
III. Intermediate forms.
As negroid, they call each skull with a facial index below 54 and a nasal index over 50, free from negro blood, each skull with a facial index over 54, and a nasal index under 51. The intermediate forms include skulls with facial index 54 and Nose Index under 51, Skull with Facial Index over 54, and NoseIndex over 50, Skulls at Borders: So Facial Index of 54 with Nose Index 51, etc. Certainly, such a schematic division is not perfect, and it is all the less so because the shape of the nasal root, the prognosis, the prenatal pits, the weight, the capacity, and many other important factors are often neglected But it is of great interest as a first attempt. If we examine how our four skulls should be included in this scheme, all four, with their indices of 562, 560, 593, and ± 556, would be still ample, if only by the slight relative width of their faces Of the pure Egyptians. If they were classed only by the relative width of the nose, only the priest En-hotp and Mrs. sit would be able to pass the test and be counted among the pure Egyptians. Both the skull of the priest Heresche-f-hotp, suspicious of us, as well as the delicate and beautiful skull of Frau Nechet, would fall into the group of Negroids, judged only by the relative width of the nose. In combining the two indices according to Thomson and Mac Iver, the two skulls would then be the "intermediate forms." We shall gladly sign this for Here-sche-f-hotp, there seems to be no doubt that even in his A woman who is a dark, curly-haired individual, has been found to be very close to Ascension.-In Madame Nechet, such a direct relationship is surely excluded, that she has not even had a trace of negro blood, I am not to represent, but it is certain that such an admixture, If present at all, is very far in the range of their ancestors, and it is certain that similar nasal indices are very frequently found in individuals, in whom even the traceable presence of negro blood is excluded in human discretion, That Thomson and Macdon's group of "intermediate forms" must be considered with the necessary caution when coarse Ir Be avoided. On the other hand, from the consideration of every great series of ancient Egyptian skulls (and in our case also from our small series of Abusir) it is clear that even the educated circles of the middle empire were not entirely free from negro blood. It is not known to me that the Egyptologists have hitherto had occasion to deal with the social position of the negroes and their hybrids in Egypt. The curly hair and the beaded lips of the Taharko, of course, attest to the fact that the throne of the pharaohs was later attainable to a real African, but very little is known to me, as was the case at that time in Egypt. I would be lucky if this short note would not be entirely unintended in this direction. In the first place, however, it is intended to express the gratitude which an anthropologist feels for the careful and conscientious salvage of somatic material in the Abusir excavations. Annex 3. About the plant residues from mR 29 and 30. By Prof. Dr. G. Schweinfurth. Mr. Professor Dr. G. Schweinfurth has had the goodness to provide the following records for this publication on the plant remnants found in the tombs mR 29 and mR 30. Section A has not yet appeared in print. Section B contains, with a few changes by the author, the essay which Professor Professor Schweinfurth published in the Vossische Zeitung of July 21, 1904, and which was published in the Annales du Service des Antiquites de l'Egypte Vol Is printed. It seemed expedient to make it accessible to the readers of the present publication. A. The plant remnants contained in the old Emmerspreu. 1. Triticum dicoccum Very. The chief masses of the grapes, which were used for the filling of the trench-shaft, and for the protection of the coffins on the foundation of the coffins, were chaff or "kaff," ie, Decayed ears of the Emmers (Triticum dicoccum Very.), And indeed of the variety Tricoccum Schuebl. Which, by the consistently evenly veiled Veesen, is distinguished from Var. Farrum is different. The last-mentioned form has only weakly developed or even no grains on the lower branches of the spikelet. The presence of three grains in each spike, on the other hand, does not offer a penetrating feature for distinguishing the variety tricoccum. Usually, only two grains are included in each vee. This is also the case with Emmer, who came from the time of the Middle Kingdom. Where a third grain is found in a vein, it is stunted, shrunken, and probably not able to germinate in time. The two existing grains, however, are always well developed in this ancient Egyptian emmer, and are the same in shape and size. Precisely the same culture form of the Emmers, which the recently deceased Prof. Br. Kφrnicke, known as the best recognizer of cereals, had already determined 18 years ago as such (Trico dicoccum var. Tricoccum), were found in the little Grasette, In the tomb of the Ani at Gebel of Maspero, which also came from the Middle Kingdom, in the winter of 1885-86. This bag, which is woven from grasstroh,. Some of which were found in the tomb, were filled with various fruits and cereals, and they had exactly the same appearance as those of the Henui grave, also from the Middle Kingdom, in the Berlin Museum exhibited are. Cf. Execution Delay 99 p. 103. Large quantities of Emmerkorn have, by the way, been brought to light in the numerous grave finds of the New Kingdom, especially in Thebes, and it is scarcely doubtful that these primitive subspecies of the wheat, the wild-growing original form (Trico dicoccoides Kcke In Egypt, the most frequently cultivated breed of bread, besides the six-line barley. However, in the earliest epochs, cultivated cultivars (Triticum sativum tenax Aschers, Graeb.) Have been cultivated in the earliest epochs, the varieties durum and turgidum being confirmed by grains found from various graves. But also these two forms (the so-called hard wheat), which are widely distributed in the southern Mediterranean regions, can be regarded as particularly close to Emmer, and can be regarded as the most primitive of cultivated wheat molds. The manner in which the Emmerials were gentled by the ancient Egyptians can not be proved from the findings of Abusir's chaff. Surprisingly, the intactness of the envelopes, the tops, and the pre-looms appears, which seems to exclude a very violent ginning method. But also today's Speltspreu2 shows completely preserved flaps and husks. The Speltbauern in southern Germany
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: One-- why are these Roman Era mummies used to represent all ancient Egyptians since presumably the founding of dynastic Egypt?? The authors then presume an "increase of Sub-Saharans" post-Roman times due the amount of said Sub-Saharan ancestry in modern Egyptians today.
Of the 3 genome-wide samples one is from Greco-Roman era, the other two are from the 3rd Intermediate-Late Period. The mtDNA samples are from the New Kingdom (4), 3rd Intermediate Period (22), Late Period (14), Ptolemaic Period (30), and Roman Period (20) - when radiocarbon date range overlapped a period boundary I've taken the midpoint. So that is like 40 mtDNAs from before the Greeks arrived (but after Hyksos etc).
This sample is representing ancient Egyptians because that's what they had. It is a large series from one site, so they can look at change over time, and from German collections, so they could get access. They don't claim that this necessarily *does* represent all Pharaonic ancient Egypt.
There *was* an increase in Sub-Saharan ancestry after this sample. Whether this will hold when samples from other times and places are the baseline is another question.
JK2911 had derived SLC24A5 and he is pre-Ptolemaic. Anyway you can have that allele and still be quite dark-skinned, if you have the ancestral variants at other pigmentation loci. He is homozygous ancestral for the light skin allele SLC45A2 variant, which would mean he was probably darker-skinned than the majority of modern North Egyptians at least.
It's kind of annoying that people keep using Yoruba for everything, but the genomes are available, so you can test them with Dinka or whatever if you think it'll make a big difference.
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: From the study:
The affinity to the Middle East finds further support by the Y-chromosome haplogroups of the three individuals for which genome-wide data was obtained, two of which could be assigned to the Middle-Eastern haplogroup J, and one to haplogroup E1b1b1 common in North Africa"
So only of the three had a Y-DNA haplogroup indigenous to Northeast Africa
Why they left out that the Masalit and Fur from Southern Sudan who carry the main clade, E1b1b1 in highest frequency?
I think it's either one of these two ethnic groups who is parental to Natufians, considering the fact that earliest Natufian tool industry happens to have originated at Central Sudan as well.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: One-- why are these Roman Era mummies used to represent all ancient Egyptians since presumably the founding of dynastic Egypt?? The authors then presume an "increase of Sub-Saharans" post-Roman times due the amount of said Sub-Saharan ancestry in modern Egyptians today.
Of the 3 genome-wide samples one is from Greco-Roman era, the other two are from the 3rd Intermediate-Late Period. The mtDNA samples are from the New Kingdom (4), 3rd Intermediate Period (22), Late Period (14), Ptolemaic Period (30), and Roman Period (20) - when radiocarbon date range overlapped a period boundary I've taken the midpoint. So that is like 40 mtDNAs from before the Greeks arrived (but after Hyksos etc).
This sample is representing ancient Egyptians because that's what they had. It is a large series from one site, so they can look at change over time, and from German collections, so they could get access. They don't claim that this necessarily *does* represent all Pharaonic ancient Egypt.
There *was* an increase in Sub-Saharan ancestry after this sample. Whether this will hold when samples from other times and places are the baseline is another question.
JK2911 had derived SLC24A5 and he is pre-Ptolemaic. Anyway you can have that allele and still be quite dark-skinned, if you have the ancestral variants at other pigmentation loci. He is homozygous ancestral for the light skin allele SLC45A2 variant, which would mean he was probably darker-skinned than the majority of modern North Egyptians at least.
It's kind of annoying that people keep using Yoruba for everything, but the genomes are available, so you can test them with Dinka or whatever if you think it'll make a big difference.
I don't understand, why the Dinka? Why not the pastoral groups from the Sahara-Sahel? The region from where scientific data shows ancient Egyptians arose (even according to their one wording).
The oldest mummy, JK2134 dates back to 776. Meaning these mummies date back to the 21st dynasty.
Proto-Egypt goes back 16Kya and even older if we count in:
quote: There is clear evidence of lithic technological variability in Middle Paleolithic (MP) assemblages along the Nile valley and in adjacent desert areas. One of the identified variants is the Khormusan, the type-site of which, Site 1017, is located north of the Nile's Second Cataract. The industry has two distinctive characteristics that set it apart from other MP industries within its vicinity. One is the use of a wide variety of raw materials; the second is an apparent correlation between raw material and technology used, suggesting a cultural aspect to raw material management. Stratigraphically, site 1017 is situated within the Dibeira-Jer formation which represents an aggradation stage of the Nile and contains sediments originating from the Ethiopian Highlands. While it has previously been suggested that the site dates to sometime before 42.5 ka, the Dibeira-Jer formation can plausibly be correlated with Nile alluvial sediments in northern Sudan recently dated to 83 ± 24 ka (MIS 5a). This stage coincides with the 81 ka age of sapropel S3, indicating higher Nile flow and stronger monsoon rainfall at these times.
Other sites which reflect similar raw material variability and technological traditions are the BNS and KHS sites in the Omo Kibish Formation (Ethiopia) dated to ∼100 ka and ∼190 ka respectively. Based on a lithic comparative study conducted, it is suggested that site 1017 can be seen as representing behavioral patterns which are indicative of East African Middle Stone Age (MSA) technology, adding support to the hypothesis that the Nile Valley was an important dispersal route used by modern humans prior to the long cooling and dry trend beginning with the onset of MIS 4. Techo-typological comparison of the assemblages from the Khormusan sites with other Middle Paleolithic sites from Nubia and East Africa is used to assess the possibility of tracing the dispersal of technological traits across the landscape and through time.
--Mae Goder-Goldberger
The Khormusan: Evidence for an MSA East African industry in Nubia
Quaternary International 25 June 2013, Vol.300:182194, doi:10.1016/j.quaint.2012.11.031 The Middle Palaeolithic in the Desert
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: One-- why are these Roman Era mummies used to represent all ancient Egyptians since presumably the founding of dynastic Egypt?? The authors then presume an "increase of Sub-Saharans" post-Roman times due the amount of said Sub-Saharan ancestry in modern Egyptians today.
Of the 3 genome-wide samples one is from Greco-Roman era, the other two are from the 3rd Intermediate-Late Period. The mtDNA samples are from the New Kingdom (4), 3rd Intermediate Period (22), Late Period (14), Ptolemaic Period (30), and Roman Period (20) - when radiocarbon date range overlapped a period boundary I've taken the midpoint. So that is like 40 mtDNAs from before the Greeks arrived (but after Hyksos etc).
This sample is representing ancient Egyptians because that's what they had. It is a large series from one site, so they can look at change over time, and from German collections, so they could get access. They don't claim that this necessarily *does* represent all Pharaonic ancient Egypt.
There *was* an increase in Sub-Saharan ancestry after this sample. Whether this will hold when samples from other times and places are the baseline is another question.
JK2911 had derived SLC24A5 and he is pre-Ptolemaic. Anyway you can have that allele and still be quite dark-skinned, if you have the ancestral variants at other pigmentation loci. He is homozygous ancestral for the light skin allele SLC45A2 variant, which would mean he was probably darker-skinned than the majority of modern North Egyptians at least.
It's kind of annoying that people keep using Yoruba for everything, but the genomes are available, so you can test them with Dinka or whatever if you think it'll make a big difference.
the abstract said
quote: The samples recovered from Middle Egypt span around 1,300 years of ancient Egyptian history from the New Kingdom to the Roman Period. Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times.
but given that
quote: one to haplogroup E1b1b1 common in North Africa"
and that Hawas had found in an earlier study Ramesses III was predicted E1b1a
is it fair that they say
quote: The ancient DNA data revealed a high level of affinity between the ancient inhabitants of Abusir el-Meleq and modern populations from the Near East and the Levant.
and leave out mention of the African affinities in some of their generalized statements?
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