quote: ADMIXTURE Analysis. To further explore the genetic ancestry of the STMs, we used the maximum-likelihood–based clustering algorithm ADMIXTURE (19). When assuming three ancestral populations (K = 3), the clusters in the reference panel mirror the grouping of individuals in the space defined by PC1 and PC2: a cluster predominating in Bantu-speaking populations, a cluster for non-Bantu West African populations, and a third restricted mostly to Kaba, Mada, and Bulala (Fig. 1D). The distribution of these components in our samples indicates that STM1 has a higher proportion of Bantu-specific ancestry, whereas STM2 and STM3 carry higher proportions of the component prevalent among the non-Bantu–speaking Yoruba, Brong, and Igbo. Notably, STM2 also shows a slightly higher proportion of the component prevalent among the Kaba, Mada, and Bulala, perhaps suggesting closer affinity with Chadic or Sudanic speakers (Fig. 1D).
— Hannes Schroeder, Carlos D. Bustamante et al mentioned the Mada in (Fig. 1D).
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Also, as we can see from maps posted by Ish Gebor many of the people claimed to be Sahelians by some posters weren't. They were from the savanna below the Sahel.
Ish often loses track of what his own data is saying
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Americans most in debt to African musical instruments are the white hillbilly banjo players if the Appalachias
"This is a very rare video of the late Scott Didlake, 1948-1994, pioneer gourd banjo builder and the lost origin of the banjo researcher. He his talking at a Gourd banjo workshop during the Tennessee Banjo Institute event 1992 together with Mike Seeger and Clark Buehling."
The banjo's sound is synonymous with country, folk, and bluegrass—music as "white" as it gets. For many, it's the quintessential American instrument. Its origin, though, lies in Africa, in various instruments featuring skin drum heads and gourd bodies. Slaves fashioned them into the modern version in the colonial Caribbean, from where it traveled, via 19th-century minstrel shows, into the very heart of American popular culture. Duke University historian Laurent Dubois, one of the world's foremost experts on the Caribbean, traces the banjo's extraordinary trajectory and the part it has played in the very concept of America.
This program is presented in partnership with the John Hope Franklin Humanities Institute at Duke University.
quote: The African influence in the blues is undeniable. The poetic structure of many of the verses is similar to the Western African tradition of AAB poetry. The story like verses carries on the oral tradition of African cultures. As DjeDje points out in her article, many of the cultures of Africa made, and performed on instruments similar to what would be found in the Americas. Instruments like the balafon (xylophone), lute, drums, aerophones and fiddle like instruments would make the assimilation of this new music more transitional. Other performance practices are undeniably African as well. The earliest ‘blues’ music can be heard in the call and response type music known as field hollers. Slaves would communicate and ease the doldrums of their labor through improvised call and response songs. As these songs were sung during work they were often unaccompanied and completely original in their content. “On Southern plantations, the roots of gospel and blues were introduced in work songs and "field hollers" based on the musical forms and rhythms of Africa. Through singing, call and response, and hollering, slaves coordinated their labor, communicated with one another across adjacent fields, bolstered weary spirits, and commented on the oppressiveness of their masters.”[1] Scoops and bent notes are reminiscent of the quarter tone scale common in African music. The refusal to center fully on a pitch is common in blues music, as the performer instead begins above or below the note. This refusal or uncertainty about tonal center can be seen as a refusal of African musicians to fully conform to the European tradition they were forced into in the new America. The lowered pitches of the blues scale are also closely related to the African quarter tone scale. The flatted 3rd and 7th are uncommon in the European tradition and add an element that is completely unique to the music. Other performance practices, like playing the guitar with a knife blade or playing the banjo with a bottleneck would likely produce sounds similar to those produced from African instruments.
However, the blues are not solely defined by African customs and traditions. The melding of cultures together makes it impossible to ignore some common musical practices of the European tradition. The blues is centered around a strong harmonic progression, that comes directly from traditional European counterpoint. The use of the I (tonic), IV (subdominant) and V (dominant) is directly related to the fact that African musicians would have been exposed to these new sounds. The masters often expected the musicians to perform at ceremonies and gatherings for the white cultures, and playing in the European tradition wasn’t just expected it was demanded. The ability to learn this new style of music, only demonstrates how capable these new musicians really were. Also, the reliance on form is not just a European tradition, but one that is certainly stressed in the European study of music. The strict and simple time meter is a musical element that was taken from this new style of music as well.
The Mississippi tradition of the blues is characterized by embellished and bent notes. “Black men and women sang about themselves, played guitar with a knife blade, or blurred, embellished or bent notes when singing.”[2] The blues are believed to have begun in Mississippi, perhaps in a levee camp or logging camp or more likely on a plantation between 1870 and 1890. The tradition that would become the blues would go on to influence several other sub-genres of the blues as well as jazz and rock n roll. Another element of the blues that solidified during the early years in the Mississippi Delta is the 12 bar form that would define this genre of music. From something as atrocious as slavery, a musical genre as beautiful and diverse as blues was born.
The dual influences of cultures and traditions can easily be heard in many songs. For example the piece by Bessie Smith, “Black Mountain Blues,” the vocal smears and the poetic structure of the verse is reminiscent of African elements that were discussed earlier. The repeated vocal line AA followed by the third line B, is holding to the poetic tradition of Western Africa. The ensemble and harmonies are traditions borrowed not only from African tradition, but European tradition as well. The verses of this piece are a story being told, carrying on the tradition of the musician to pass on history orally. Another great example of African musical elements being transformed into a style of music is Robert Johnson’s “Walkin’ Blues.” The “holler” that Johnson uses throughout, the bent notes, scoops and style of playing the guitar are all examples of past traditions being used to form a new genre of music.
Also, as we can see from maps posted by Ish Gebor many of the people claimed to be Sahelians by some posters weren't. They were from the savanna below the Sahel.
Ish often loses track of what his own data is saying
YOU ARE A DUMB BOX OF ROCKS, WHITE SUPREMACIST. COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
quote:Originally posted by africurious: Also, as we can see from maps posted by Ish Gebor many of the people claimed to be Sahelians by some posters weren't. They were from the savanna below the Sahel. There doesn't seem to be agreement on terms in this thread on what we refer to when we say "Sahelian" so there prob is some unnecessary confusion and argumentation. Example of one of the maps i'm referring to.
Perhaps you are not familiar with movements / travel and ethnography.
HAUSE DO NOT LIVE AT THE SAVANA NOR DO BULALA !!!!!!
NORTH OF NIGERIA IS SAHEL, NORTH OF SENEAL IS SAHEL!!!!
You need to expand you "curiosity on Africa", because you're lacking severely.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: I am busy casting out demons
Are you on a religious mission?
What are you one, a white supremacist mission?
quote:Songhai empire, also spelled Songhay, great trading state of West Africa (fl. 15th–16th century), centred on the middle reaches of the Niger River in what is now central Mali and eventually extending west to the Atlantic coast and east into Niger and Nigeria.
quote:Originally posted by africurious: Below are slave trade shipping data for the US, Brazil, and composite caribbean/spanish colonies
US
Brazil
Composite Caribbean/Spanish mainland (not the entire caribbean)
From the data above, these are the %s of upper W Af going to each region (i.e. excluding central/SE/"other" Af): US – 67.6% Braz – 31.8% Composite Caribbean/Spanish mainland – 61.9%
So as can be seen from the data, having majority origin in upper W Af wasn't just an american feature but happened in some places in the caribbean and Spanish mainland also. Brazil not surprisingly is dominantly Kongola. The US only received 6% more upper W Afs than the caribbean/spanish mainland composite. Look at Jamaica's stats--it's 78.6% upper W Af, 11% higher than the US. Senegambians is where the US stands out at 19.7%. No other region comes close to that. So from the data, it's not a upper W Af vs W central Af thing between the US and other americas. It's a Senegambian vs non-Senegambian thing. Any alleged Sahelians outside senegambia would've come thru the same ports and from same source populations that serviced the Americas outside the US. So for example if it's claimed that many Hausa came to the US (via bight of benin, gold coast) then these Hausa would've been in huge #s in other areas of the americas that were predominantly upper W Af too.
Also, as we can see from maps posted by Ish Gebor many of the people claimed to be Sahelians by some posters weren't. They were from the savanna below the Sahel. There doesn't seem to be agreement on terms in this thread on what we refer to when we say "Sahelian" so there prob is some unnecessary confusion and argumentation. Example of one of the maps i'm referring to.
Can you comprehend the meaning of the word "embark"?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Americans most in debt to African musical instruments are the white hillbilly banjo players if the Appalachias
God dang
Silly rabbit tricks are for kids! This is why you should quit gate keeping and go study your own history, if you are indeed European? The real question is how African is European culture. If you had watched the video on the Talensi Fiddle is a precursor to violin, https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VzqDq2R7KT0/maxresdefault.jpg IMG resized
The African Harp is inner African before it is Egyptian.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Snakepit1
WOW!
Where the heck did the Horner come from??
The British controlled the West African Slave Trade. As a result, The American slave traders took slaves from Mozambique and along the East African coast all the way to India.
.
I'm from South-West Africa though, it was the Portuguese who trafficked Africans from Luanda & Benguela though. I don't know how I got "horner" ancestry. Maybe some from easter-africa got "dropped" off in south-west africa.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: To exaggerate inner African input into the Transatlantic Slave Trade is to exaggerate African complicity because Europeans did not often venture into the interior
Let's continue:
quote:Slave ships were designed to give the crew vantage points to bring their weaponry to play against the Africans. Other ships, and men of shore, rallied to the fight against rebellious Africans, and gory defeat was commonplace. Once defeated, African rebels were subjected to a ritual of grisly punishments and execution, all designed to illustrate to survivors (and to Africans watching on neighboring ships) the inevitable fate of defeated rebels.
[…]
Crews Prepared for Resistance
Faced with the permanent threat of African resistance, the crew had to be permanently alert. A piece of wood, a tool, or any physical object carelessly left within a slave’s reach, could become a weapon. Even African children were distrusted by the crew, as they could pass dangerous objects to the men chained below the deck to facilitate escape and revolt.
posted
Daughters of the Trade. (From the 01.20 minute onwards she discusses the people who where taken from the inland, and taken to the coast, though it is being addressed earlier on as well.
posted
Genome-wide admixture patterns in Afro- Caribbean populations from the Lesser Antilles MARIA A. NIEVES-COLON1,2, ANNE C. STONE1,3 and JADA BENN-TORRES4 1School of Human Evolution and Social Change, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ, 2laboratoryo de Genomica para la Biodiversidad, Unidad de Genomica Avanzada CINVESTAV, Irapuato, Guanajuato, MX, 3Center for Evolution and Medicine, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ, 4Department of Anthropology, Vanderbilt University
quote: Afro-Caribbean populations remain underrepre- sented in anthropological genetics research. This sampling gap precludes understanding of how the African diaspora has shaped the genomic and cultural variation of Caribbean islanders. Here we address this gap by examining high-density nuclear SNP genotypes from 55 self-identified Afro-Caribbean communities across five Lesser Antilles: St. Kitts, St. Lucia, St. Vincent, Grenada, and Trinidad. Our findings indicate that ALL islanders have large components of African ancestry and low proportions of Native American ancestry; a significantly different pattern from that observed among admixed Latinos from the Greater Antilles. We further found variation in admixture patterns between island commu- nities. Trinidadian Afro-Caribbeans for instance, carry large components of East and South Asian ancestry which were likely contributed by Indian and Chinese migrants during the colonial indentureship period. In addition, comparisons of autosomal versus X-chromosome ancestry revealed a significant difference in African, European and South Asian ancestry proportions across the two genetic systems. This indicates that sex-biased mating patterns, where mostly European males reproduced with African, Native American and South Asian females, played a large role in shaping the genetic diversity of Afro-Caribbean communities in the Lesser Antilles. Overall, our findings underscore the large impact of post-colonial demographic processes in shaping the genomes of afro-de- scendant islanders. This work also increases the representation of admixed and diverse popula- tions in available genomic datasets and has the potential to inform future functional and clin- ical genetics research with admixed Caribbean peoples.
#Relevant
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^Good read, however at first somewhat confusing, since that skipped on me. I was more focused on other parts.
Where are the Greater and Lesser Antilles?
The islands of the Caribbean sea are also known as the West Indies. Within the West Indies, the islands can be divided even further into two groups: the Bahamas and the Antilles. The islands of the Antilles are then further divided into two sub-groups:
The Greater Antilles: located southeast of the United States, contain the islands of Cuba, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominical Republic), and the islands composing the Cayman Islands.
The Lesser Antilles: contains smaller archipelagos like the U.S. Virgin Islands, British Virgin Islands, Anguilla, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Antigua and Barbuda, Montserrat, Guadeloupe, Dominica, Martinique, Saint Lucia, Barbados, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Grenada, and Trinidad and Tobago and Aruba.
Basically those taken by the Spanish have more Native American (Carib-Indian) in them. Historically that makes sense since Portuguese and Spanish first started to enslave the people from West and Central Africa. British etc came many decades later, almost a century later. In the early stage Carib-Indians were still around. On mainland you’ll find them in abundance in the Amazon’s. This tells us something else as well, which is they most likely had boats. And these boats were made in similar fashion as the boats in Africa. The mysterious question then becomes, who taught them how to make these (type of) boats. If they weren’t in contact with the outside world for thousands of years?
I just had to add this one in here, no pun intended:
Saqqara (Middle Egypt), Tomb of Kagemni – Mastaba 25 (Mastaba of the vizier Kagemni; Old Kingdom, early 6th dynasty, after 2347 BC).
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [...]
Where are the Greater and Lesser Antilles?
The islands of the Caribbean sea are also known as the West Indies. Within the West Indies, the islands can be divided even further into two groups: the Bahamas and the Antilles. The islands of the Antilles are then further divided into two sub-groups:
The Greater Antilles: located southeast of the United States, contain the islands of Cuba, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominical Republic), and the islands composing the Cayman Islands.
The Lesser Antilles: contains smaller archipelagos like the U.S. Virgin Islands, British Virgin Islands, Anguilla, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Antigua and Barbuda, Montserrat, Guadeloupe, Dominica, Martinique, Saint Lucia, Barbados, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Grenada, and Trinidad and Tobago and Aruba.
Funny. I was just doing Antilles research for Abubakari II's peaceful transAtlantic expedition.
I found out some of the Lesser Antilles are grouped into a Leeward Islands section. Their NW end is where the Hull Bay and Water Island skeletons were discovered.
Reed boats can be distinguished from reed rafts, since reed boats are usually waterproofed with some form of tar.
The earliest discovered remains from a reed boat are 7000 years old, found in Kuwait. Reed boats are depicted in early petroglyphs and were common in Ancient Egypt. A famous example is the ark of bulrushes in which the baby Moses was set afloat. They were also constructed from early times in Peru and Bolivia, and boats with remarkedly similar design have been found in Easter Island. Reed boats are still used in Peru, Bolivia, Ethiopia, and until recently in Corfu (greek island)
Totora reeds grow in South America, particularly around Lake Titicaca, and also on Easter Island. These reeds have been used by various pre-Columbian South American civilizations to build reed boats. The boats, called balsa, vary in size from small fishing canoes to thirty metres long. They are still used on Lake Titicaca, located on the border of Peru and Bolivia, 3810 m above sea level.[9]
The Uros are an indigenous people pre-dating the Incas. They live, still today, on man-made floating islands scattered across Lake Titicaca. These islands are also constructed from totora reeds.[10] Each floating island supports between three and ten houses, also built of reeds.[9] The Uros still build totora reed boats, which they use for fishing and hunting seabirds.[10]
Reed boat craftsmen from Suriqui, a town on the Bolivian side of lake Titicaca, helped Thor Heyerdahl construct Ra II and Tigris.[11] Thor Heyerdahl attempted to prove that the reed boats of Lake Titicaca derived from the papyrus boats of Egypt.
Near the south-eastern shore of Lake Titicaca lie the ruins of the ancient city state of Tiwanaku. Tiwanaku contains monumental architecture characterized by large stones of exceptional workmanship.[12] Green andesite stones, that were used to create elaborate carvings and monoliths, originated from the Copacabana peninsula, located across Lake Titicaca.[13] One theory is that these giant andesite stones, which weigh over 40 tons were transported some 90 kilometres across Lake Titicaca on reed boats
Other examples[edit] Tule reeds, which are widespread in North America, were used to construct reed boats by various Native American groups. People from Ohlone, Coast Miwok and Bay Miwok used tule to build boats for use in the San Francisco Bay estuary.[16] Northern groups of Chumash also used tule to construct reed fishing canoes.[17] As well as Peru and Bolivia, reed boats are still built in Ethiopia.[18] and were used until recently in Corfu.[19] In the account given by Eusebius of Caesarea of the Sumerian flood myth is the claim that the reed boat constructed by Xisuthrus survived, at least until Berossus' day, in the "Corcyrean Mountains" of Armenia. Mokihi are made traditionally from raupo or korari in New Zealand. Still being constructed on the Waitaki river [1] and in South Westland [2] Prayer boats are used in a Hindu religious festival which takes place every year on the banks of the river Ganges where thousands of people burn incense and candles on small reed boats and float them down the river at night, the boats carrying their wishes and prayers. In 1836, Narcissa Whitman described reed boats pulled by Indians on horse back at Snake Fort, Fort Boise.[20] In 2007, the reed boat Abora3, captained by the German scientist Dominique Görlitz, set out from New York to prove that other intercontinental sea journeys were possible in reed boats. Some coracle boats are also built out of reeds .
Totora reed fishing boats on the beach at Huanchaco, Peru
Passengers manoeuvre a motorcycle out of a woven-reed coracle ferry, near Hampi village, India. July 2008.
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Interesting post but isn't the issue on the native Americans coming to the Americas by way of the Bering straights? I'm not sure of the plant life in beringia but habitation in the north America only goes back 10,000+ years which opens up south America with possible contact from Africa or Easter island.
Never implied they couldn't.
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The mysterious question then becomes, who taught them how to make these (type of) boats. If they weren’t in contact with the outside world for thousands of years?
Amerindian Tule boats.
[ IMG resized
These boats are being made by the Miwoks of the California coast. There is no reason they could not have invented these boats and other people invented them independently in other locations
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Interesting post but isn't the issue on the native Americans coming to the Americas by way of the Bering straights? I'm not sure of the plant life in beringia but habitation in the north America only goes back 10,000+ years which opens up south America with possible contact from Africa or Easter island.
yes, in situ invention of reed boats in various parts of the world do not nullify the Bering Strait crossing hypothesis
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
All before Clovis.
13,800 years ago First Americans killed a mastodon in Olympic Peninsula. 13,500 years ago First Americans buried a young woman in the Yucatan. Rapid spread surmised to coast travel, avoiding the ice sheet, exploiting kelp. Bull kelp forest extended from Pacific Northwest to Patagonia in patches back then.
The mysterious question then becomes, who taught them how to make these (type of) boats. If they weren’t in contact with the outside world for thousands of years?
Amerindian Tule boats.
[ IMG resized
These boats are being made by the Miwoks of the California coast. There is no reason they could not have invented these boats and other people invented them independently in other locations
There is no reason? First off there are a lot of similarities within the design, sedcony there are more similar cultural affinities on both continents. It surprises me that you as a “specialist on both continents“ haven’t figured that out yet.
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Reed boats can be distinguished from reed rafts, since reed boats are usually waterproofed with some form of tar.
The earliest discovered remains from a reed boat are 7000 years old, found in Kuwait. Reed boats are depicted in early petroglyphs and were common in Ancient Egypt. A famous example is the ark of bulrushes in which the baby Moses was set afloat. They were also constructed from early times in Peru and Bolivia, and boats with remarkedly similar design have been found in Easter Island. Reed boats are still used in Peru, Bolivia, Ethiopia, and until recently in Corfu (greek island)
Totora reeds grow in South America, particularly around Lake Titicaca, and also on Easter Island. These reeds have been used by various pre-Columbian South American civilizations to build reed boats. The boats, called balsa, vary in size from small fishing canoes to thirty metres long. They are still used on Lake Titicaca, located on the border of Peru and Bolivia, 3810 m above sea level.[9]
The Uros are an indigenous people pre-dating the Incas. They live, still today, on man-made floating islands scattered across Lake Titicaca. These islands are also constructed from totora reeds.[10] Each floating island supports between three and ten houses, also built of reeds.[9] The Uros still build totora reed boats, which they use for fishing and hunting seabirds.[10]
Reed boat craftsmen from Suriqui, a town on the Bolivian side of lake Titicaca, helped Thor Heyerdahl construct Ra II and Tigris.[11] Thor Heyerdahl attempted to prove that the reed boats of Lake Titicaca derived from the papyrus boats of Egypt.
Near the south-eastern shore of Lake Titicaca lie the ruins of the ancient city state of Tiwanaku. Tiwanaku contains monumental architecture characterized by large stones of exceptional workmanship.[12] Green andesite stones, that were used to create elaborate carvings and monoliths, originated from the Copacabana peninsula, located across Lake Titicaca.[13] One theory is that these giant andesite stones, which weigh over 40 tons were transported some 90 kilometres across Lake Titicaca on reed boats
Other examples[edit] Tule reeds, which are widespread in North America, were used to construct reed boats by various Native American groups. People from Ohlone, Coast Miwok and Bay Miwok used tule to build boats for use in the San Francisco Bay estuary.[16] Northern groups of Chumash also used tule to construct reed fishing canoes.[17] As well as Peru and Bolivia, reed boats are still built in Ethiopia.[18] and were used until recently in Corfu.[19] In the account given by Eusebius of Caesarea of the Sumerian flood myth is the claim that the reed boat constructed by Xisuthrus survived, at least until Berossus' day, in the "Corcyrean Mountains" of Armenia. Mokihi are made traditionally from raupo or korari in New Zealand. Still being constructed on the Waitaki river [1] and in South Westland [2] Prayer boats are used in a Hindu religious festival which takes place every year on the banks of the river Ganges where thousands of people burn incense and candles on small reed boats and float them down the river at night, the boats carrying their wishes and prayers. In 1836, Narcissa Whitman described reed boats pulled by Indians on horse back at Snake Fort, Fort Boise.[20] In 2007, the reed boat Abora3, captained by the German scientist Dominique Görlitz, set out from New York to prove that other intercontinental sea journeys were possible in reed boats. Some coracle boats are also built out of reeds .
Totora reed fishing boats on the beach at Huanchaco, Peru
Passengers manoeuvre a motorcycle out of a woven-reed coracle ferry, near Hampi village, India. July 2008.
First off all, I’m typing from the phone now.
You are showing a completely different design here, secondly the design could have evolved further. Wikipedia isn’t going to help you. And yeah, once again it’s funny to “read” how they leftout other places in Africa where this culture and tradition is still maintained.
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You guys are not seriously suggesting these boats were used to do a trans-Ocean voyage of about 2000miles of open water to...trade. Really? In 1492 it took a much more advance ship about 3 months? Get real! What!? No sense of the magnitude and size of this planet and the feat involved. You are starting to sound as Europeans. The real question is.... why? Is it worth it...for trinkets? If there is "line of sight"...ok?
------------ Quote:
"Tell students that Henry Hudson was a European explorer traveling across the Atlantic during the colonial period. It took Hudson more than two months to sail from Amsterdam to New York City on his sailing ship, the Half Moon. A modern ocean liner, such as the Queen Mary 2, makes the trip from Europe in seven days."
"It usually takes around 10-20 days to cross the Atlantic Ocean on a cargo ship. The length of the journey depends on the route and the speed of the container ship.Dec 24, 2017”
"By the time the Pilgrims had left England, they had already been living onboard the ships for nearly a month and a half. The voyage itself across the Atlantic Ocean took 66 days, from their departure on September 6, until Cape Cod was sighted on 9 November 1620”
quote: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] h Reed boats
Reed boatReeed boats are still used in Peru, Bolivia, Ethiopia, and until recently in Corfu (greek island)
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Heyerdahl tried an Atlantic crossing on a tule. Think the initial effort was it unraveled or...
Doubt imperial Mali used tule Lake Tschad craft. Remember the single tree solid body Dafuna canoe.
Mali redesigned river craft for ocean use. Abubakari II's intelligence knew common citizens entered the Atlantic. The coastal shipyard would've relied on coastal and riverine boat builders nautical skills.
Tourist info: Hopi in the SW USA have a migration myth with details describing sea rafts made of hollow stem papyrus per the Book of the Hopi.
EDIT: after Ish's post below
Heyerdahl crossed the Atlantic in a tule designed like a pharaonic Nile craft.
Zoom and note the Canary Current meets the North Equatorial Current at the Cabo Verdes. That and the NE Trade Winds forces to the Antilles without even trying.
Travel to S America would've been by the Equatorial Counter Current linking to the South Equatorial Current.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You guys are not seriously suggesting these boats were used to do a trans-Ocean voyage of about 2000miles of open water to...trade. Really? In 1492 it took a much more advance ship about 3 months? Get real! What!? No sense of the magnitude and size of this planet and the feat involved. You are starting to sound as Europeans. The real question is.... why? Is it worth it...for trinkets? If there is "line of sight"...ok?
------------ Quote:
"Tell students that Henry Hudson was a European explorer traveling across the Atlantic during the colonial period. It took Hudson more than two months to sail from Amsterdam to New York City on his sailing ship, the Half Moon. A modern ocean liner, such as the Queen Mary 2, makes the trip from Europe in seven days."
"It usually takes around 10-20 days to cross the Atlantic Ocean on a cargo ship. The length of the journey depends on the route and the speed of the container ship.Dec 24, 2017”
"By the time the Pilgrims had left England, they had already been living onboard the ships for nearly a month and a half. The voyage itself across the Atlantic Ocean took 66 days, from their departure on September 6, until Cape Cod was sighted on 9 November 1620”
quote: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] h Reed boats
Reed boatReeed boats are still used in Peru, Bolivia, Ethiopia, and until recently in Corfu (greek island)
It’s not these boats of course, it’s the transplant of technology. There were larger boats. And it has been tested with similar larger boat. This test was successful. The Atlantic Ocean has a direct stream from West Africa to the Caribbean and Central America.
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This is a good ass thread... I learn more everytime I reread.. Impressive.
Tukuler would you mind restoring the imgs in this post
btw everyone who posted here kicked ass... Shouts out to And Andromeda2025 and Africurious ...you guys came outa nowhere with heat.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Looking back on the Maafa maps and charts quantifying continental regions of origin; consider D'atanasio's U209 M3991 & U290, 7 6 & 5000 year old male E lineages, she particularly ties to SW African Americans. Especially U290. Can it indicate possible majority source of those AfrAms or does it just point to which survived and thrived?
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Interesting. That is why we need our own genetic testers and data analyst. Still can't fathom West Africans sailed in straw boats 4000miles away to trade in trinkets. Added, On the East Coast of the Americas would seem more probably than the West Coast. But we need confirmation via high resolution analysis.
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Looking back on the Maafa maps and charts quantifying continental regions of origin; consider D'atanasio's U209 M3991 & U290, 7 6 & 5000 year old male E lineages, she particularly ties to SW African Americans. Especially U290. Can it indicate possible majority source of those AfrAms or does it just point to which survived and thrived?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: can't fathom West Africans sailed in straw boats 4000miles away to trade in trinkets.
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But Sage.....The Atlantic Ocean is close to 4000miles. ... of OPEN water.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
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That didn't stop Cristobal Colon nor the Portuguese and other Europeans but sure Africans are incapable of what humans do.
Nuff said
Go take or sit in on some African Studies courses at your nearest college or at least do some resource center like the Schomburg or failing that do interlibrary loan since the ES Rχiv isn't good anymore.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interesting. That is why we need our own genetic testers and data analyst. Still can't fathom West Africans sailed in straw boats 4000miles away to trade in trinkets. Added, On the East Coast of the Americas would seem more probably than the West Coast. But we need confirmation via high resolution analysis.
Not taking a position here as I don't know enough about ideas put forth about West African transatlantic expeditions. But you'd be surprised what is possible with "simple" boats.
quote:European seafarers could not believe their eyes when they first encountered people in Polynesia in the 1600s.
Academics in Europe believed that the Polynesians must have been the survivors of a devastating natural disaster, where an entire continent, Lemuria, sank into the sea. They thought that the Polynesians had escaped by climbing up to the top of the mountain peaks that then became the islands of Polynesia.
It took more than 100 years before this view was updated by the famous explorer, Captain James Cook. He discovered that the Polynesians were formidable sailors who built seaworthy canoes and navigated hundreds of miles of open water by following ocean swells, reading the stars, interpreting cloud formations, and sea birds.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: But Sage.....The Atlantic Ocean is close to 4000miles. ... of OPEN water.
The distance from Africa to Brazil is 1700 miles. This was less than the extent of many ancient Lakes in Africa .
It is time we take a serious look at the nautical history of African people. The idea that the first civilizations in Africa were solely hunter-gather without boat technology is groundless. We have to move away from European ideas about the origins of sailing and boat technology.
The varied style of crafts depicted in the Sahara indicate that Africans made seacraft that was capable of traveling in rough waters and in the Ocean. They would have needed these sailing craft to trade and communicate with people living along these gigantic lakes.
Africans probably developed their nautical skill sailing the former Megalakes that existed in Africa for 100’s of years. Look at this map of the Mega lakes that formerly existed in Africa. .
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The lakes in Africa were thousands of miles long. Mega Chad was a freshwater lake in Africa covering 139,000 sq miles (360,000 sq km) . Lake Chad formerly emptied in the Atlantic Ocean.
The map of MegaLake Chad and MegaLake Congo make it clear that Africans could sail all the way from South Africa up to North Africa. From here they could have sailed up to the Mediterranean Sea or took rivers reaching the Atlantic Ocean.
The nautical skills developed by Africans on these Lakes would explain their ability to navigate and sail the Atlantic Ocean , Indian Ocean and Mediterranean Sea.
The weather on these inland seas given the size of the lakes would have made conditions similar to what sailors would have experienced sailing in the Ocean. Moreover sailing these Lakes would have given them valuable experience, that would have allowed them to sail the open seas.
The distance from Africa to Brazil is only 1700 miles. This was a minute area compared to the distance Africans sailed to trade with communities formerly existing on the African Mega Lakes
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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What evidence has indicated that such a straight-line crossing ever occurred?
I've found none at all.
The Amazon region has the Surui & Karitiana people who have genetic traces of Andaman-Melanesian ancestry unlike all other AmerIndians. I consider them to be descendants of the Brazilian skeletons which showed Melanesian features and also linked to the Melanesian-like or Negroid-like Olmec stone skulls.
The Surui & Karitiana people today resemble other AmerIndians and they speak the same language. Their ancestors did not follow bison in Beringia as did the AmerIndian ancestors, rather they followed the Pacific coastal currents during the Ice Age, when the Pacific was 110m/330' lower than today and numerous continental shelves were exposed, like Sahul, Sunda, Beringia dam, using canoes derived from sago palm processing.
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I thought the stone skulls all had helmets. If so, plausibly they may have adorned them with feathers, which adorned Aztec & Japanese samurai armor. But cornrows might have been worn, I don't know.
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: I thought the stone skulls all had helmets. If so, plausibly they may have adorned them with feathers, which adorned Aztec & Japanese samurai armor. But cornrows might have been worn, I don't know.
. The names of the Olmec Kings are found in the headgear of each Olmec Head. .
. The best evidence that the Olmec Heads represent actual Olmec Kings is the Cascajal tablet. This tablet was found in Mexico.It is the obituary of Bi Popo, who is represented in San Lorenzo Olmec Head 3.
The Olmec writing on the Cascajal tablet is an obituary for a King Bi Po. This writing is written in Hieroglyphic Olmec (Winters,2006). Hieroglyphic Olmec includes multiple linear Olmec signs which are joined together to make pictures of animals, faces and other objects.
Some researchers have recognized insects and other objects in the signs. In reality these signs are made up several different Olmec linear signs (Winters,1998).
To read the Olmec writing I use the Vai script. The Vai script includes a number of syllabic signs that have been used to engrave rocks in the Sahara for the past 4000 years. I read the signs in Malinke-Bambara which was the spoken language of the Olmec.
The Olmec writing is read right to left top to bottom. Each segment of the Olmec sign has to be broken down into its individual syllabic sign. In most cases the Olmec signs includes two or more syllabic characters. The Olmec signs can be interpreted as follows:
1. La fe ta gyo 2. Bi yu 3. Pa po yu 4. Se ta I su 5. Ta kye 6. Beb be 7. Bi Po Yu to 8. Tu fa ku 9. Tu pa pot u 10. Ta gbe pa 11. i-tu 12. Bi Yu yo po 13. Kye gyo 14. Po lu 15. Fe ta yo i 16. Be kye 17. Fe gina 18. Po bi po tu 19. Lu kye gyo to 20. Kye tu a pa 21. Yu gyo i 22. Pa ku pa 23. Po yu 24. Day u kye da 25. Po ta kye tap o 26. Ta gbe 27. Bi Fa yu 28. Bi Yu / Paw
Translation Reading the Cascajal Tablet from right to left we have the following:
(8) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (7) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties.
(6) This abode is possessed by the Governor . (5)…. (4) Bi Po Po.
(3) Bi (was), (2) an Artisan desires to be consecrated to the divinity. (1) (and He) merits thou offer of libations.
(14). Admiration (for) the cult specialist’s hemisphere tomb. (13) The inheritance of thou vital spirit is consecration to the divinity.
(12) In a place of righteous admiration, (11) Pure Bi (in a) pure abode
(10) A pure mark of admiration (is) this hemispheric tomb.
(9) [Here] lays low (the celebrity) [he] is gone.
(22) The place of righteousness, [is] (21) the pure hemispheric tomb
(20) (19) Thou (art) obedient to the Order. (18) Hold upright the Order (and) the divinity of the sacred cult.
(17) Pure Admiration this place of, (16) Bi the Vital Spirit. (15) [Truly this is ] a place consecrated to the divinity and propriety.
27) Lay low (the celebrity) to go to , (26) love the mystic order—thou vivid image of the race,
(25) The pure Govenor and (24) Devotee [of the Order lies in this] hemispheric tomb ,desires [to be] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue, (23) [He] merits thou offer of Libations.
(34) Command Respect. (33)….this place of admiration. (32) Thou sacred inheritance is propriety. (31) The Govenor commands existence in a unique state, (31) [in] this ruler’s hemispheric tomb. (29) The Royal (28) [was] a vigorous man.
(36) The pure habitation (35) [of a ]Ruler obedient to the Order. (37) This abode is possessed by the governor. (38) Admiration to you [who art] obedient to the Order. (49) Pure admiration [for this] tomb. (48) Thou hold upright the pure law. (47). Pure admiration [for this tomb]. (46) [It] acts [as] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue. (45) Bi Po, (44) a pure man, (43) of wonder, (42) [whose] inheritance is consecration to the Divinity. (41) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (40) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties. (62) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb. (61) [This] tomb [is a] sacred object, (60) a place of righteous wonder. (59) Bi’s tomb (58) [is in] accord [with] the law (57) Bi exist in a unique (and) pure state the abode of the Govenor is pure.. (56) The inheritance of [this] Ruler is joy. (55) [In] this tomb of King Bi (54) lays low a celebrity, [he] is gone. (53) The tomb of Bi (52) is a dormitory [of] love. A place consacreted to the divinity. (51) Thou the vivid image of the race love(d) the mystic order. (50) [He] merits [your] offer of Libations.
This translation of the Cascajal tablet makes it clear that the tablet was written for a local ruler at San Lorenzo called Bi Po. This tablet indicates that Bi Po’s tomb was recognized as a sacred site. It also indicates that the Olmecians believed that if they offered libations at the tombs of their rulers they would gain blessings.
The Cascajal Tablet according to the road builders at the village was found in a mound. The fact that a mound existed where the tablet was found offers considerable support to the idea that the mound where the tablet was found is the tomb of BiPoPo.
The obituary on the Cascajal Tablet may be written about one of the Royals among Olmec heads found at San Lorenzo. The Cascajal Tablet may relate to the personage depicted in San Lorenzo monument 3. Head 3 San Lorenzo
We have found that the names of these rulers is probably found among the symbols associated with the individual Olmec heads. The headband on monument 3 is made up of four parallel ropes encircling the head. In the parallel ropes there are two serrated figures that cross the ropes diagonally.
There is also a plaited diadem or four braids on the back of the figure covered with serrated element. On the side of the head of monument 3, two serrated elements on four parallel lines hang. This element ends with a three-tiered element hanging.
In the Olmec writing the serrated elements means Bi, while the boxes under the serrated element within the four parallel lines would represent the words PoPo. This suggest that the name for monument 3 was probably BiPoPo.
The hanging element on monument 3 is similar to one of the signs on the Cascajal tablet. Although symbol 57 on the Cascajal monument is hard to recognize it appears to include the Bi sign on the top of the symbol. This finding indicates that the BiPoPo of monument 3, is most likely the BiPo(Po) mentioned in the Cascajal Tablet.
Cascajal Sign 57
Stirling said that monument 3 was found at the bottom of a deep ravine half-a-mile southwest of the principal mound of San Lorenzo, along with ceramic potsherds. This is interesting because the village of Cascajal is situated southwest of San Lorenzo.
According to reports of the discovery of the road builders who found the Cascajal Tablet, the tablet came from a mound at Cascajal which was located about a mile from San Lorenzo. The coincidence of finding San Lorenzo Monument 3 in the proximity of the Cascajal mound where the Cascajal Tablet was found suggest that these artifacts concern the same personage. This leads to the possibility that the Cascajal mound was the tomb of BiPoPo.
In conclusion the Cascajal Tablet is an obituary for San Lorenzo Olmec Head 3, which depicts BiPoPo .
Given the presence of similar signs on the Olmec head called San Lorenzo monument 3, which also read BiPoPo suggest that the Cascajal Tablet was written for the personage depicted in Olmec head 3.
Cascajal Tablet makes it clear Cascajal was a royal burial site. It is conceivable that other tablets relating to Olmec rulers may also be found at this locale, since some of these other mounds may be the “hemispheric” tombs of other Olmec rulers. .
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References to African Inscriptions:
M. Delafosse, Vai leur langue et leur ysteme d'ecriture,L'Anthropologie, 10 (1910).
Lambert, N. (1970). Medinet Sbat et la Protohistoire de Mauritanie Occidentale, Antiquites Africaines, 4, pp.15-62.
Lambert, N. L'apparition du cuivre dans les civilisations prehistoriques. In C.H. Perrot et al Le Sol, la Parole et 'Ecrit (Paris: Societe Francaise d'Histoire d'Outre Mer) pp.213-226.
R. Mauny, Tableau Geographique de l'Ouest Afrique Noire. Histoire et Archeologie (Fayard);
Kea,R.A. (2004). Expansion and Contractions: World-Historical Change and the Western Sudan World-System (1200/1000BC-1200/1250A.D.) Journal of World-Systems Research, 3, pp.723-816
Winters, Clyde. (1998). The Decipherment of the Olmec Writing System. Retrieved 09/25/2006 at http://olmec98.net/Rtolmec2.htm
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.Indonesians navigated ... Indian Ocean, third largest ocean, c.28,350,000 sq mi (73,427,000 sq km), extending from S Asia to Antarctica and from E Africa to SE Australia; it is c.4,000 mi (6,400 km) wide at the equator. It constitutes about 20% of the world's total ocean area.
West Africans navigated... The Atlantic Ocean is the second largest of the world's oceans with a total area of about f, becoming the first person to swim 3,716 miles across the Atlantic Ocean, ..... The wide range of salinities in the North Atlantic is caused by the asymmetry of the northern subtropical gyre and the large number of contributions from ...
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: I thought the stone skulls all had helmets. If so, plausibly they may have adorned them with feathers, which adorned Aztec & Japanese samurai armor. But cornrows might have been worn, I don't know.
DD I appreciate your studies taken untrodden paths and connecting them in the most original fashion I've ever read.
I'm talking about a head not a skull. Monument Q from Tres Zapotes has seven cornrows as seen from the back.
Become familiar with 'Indian' artpieces whose subjects share African facial features by actually looking at them. I recommend Alexander von Wuthenau (1975) Unexpected Faces in Ancient America a catalog including trans Pacific as well as trans Atlantic faces.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interesting. That is why we need our own genetic testers and data analyst. Still can't fathom West Africans sailed in straw boats 4000miles away to trade in trinkets. Added, On the East Coast of the Americas would seem more probably than the West Coast. But we need confirmation via high resolution analysis.
100% Agreed. And the time is now.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Loyoking back on the Maafa maps and charts quantifying continental regions of origin; consider D'atanasio's U209 M3991 & U290, 7 6 & 5000 year old male E lineages, she particularly ties to SW African Americans. Especially U290. Can it indicate possible majority source of those AfrAms or does it just point to which survived and thrived?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler "I'm talking about a head not a skull."
Yes! Of course.
I had been thinking of the huge stone balls (natural concretions) of that area, because of a photo of one in the Facebook group Ancient Origins, and meant to differentiate the carved heads, but I don't know why I said skulls, error.
Thanks for the information. Yes, corn-rows are very plausible, but there may have been some other fashion of hair style or head covering. I really don't know.
I'm not against the "African First in America", but I do insist on very strong evidence, so far it remains hypothetical to me.
Melanesian-Andaman evidence: Genetic trace only in Amazon Surui & Karitiana; Brazilian 8ka morphological skeletal evidence clearly distinct from other AmerIndian skeletal features.
Posts: 2021 | From: Miami | Registered: Aug 2014
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Tukuler, I agree that the images of the Olmec heads look very West African. I'm wondering if the early Andaman & Papuans & Australians (especially the Papuan Pygmy & Queensland Mbabaram Pygmies) also looked like this before they mixed with Denisovans and later EurAsians & Austronesians.
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xyyman, to me, aside from near-shore bowl-boats (coracles = kupharigolu = inverted mongolu/dome hut), nobody was boating any oceans until Papua was found and inhabited by people who learned how to craft dugouts from sago palms about 40ka - 25ka. After that, those longboat watercraft became popular and could have been paddled all over by everyone, including West Africans. Sailing wide-open seas for months over deep deep water with very few islands in between?
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