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Author Topic: R-V88 from where…really ?– new study
xyyman
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I haven’t read the full study but I am getting so good at this I don’t need to . The abstract alone tells me the story. So R-V88 is older in Africans vs Europeans. That they admit and the data shows. Now here comes the spin. So they switched from uniparental markers to autosomal markers to infer back migration. Why? Because they cannot prove R-V88 is older in Europeans compared to Africans. So without uniparental proof they need to introduce a new goal post. …yes, autosomal markers.

Mansa Musa, did I strike gold again? I have been saying this for over 4 years. The chicken is coming home to roost .

Also they are now trying to explain WHY Neanderthal ancestry was NOT observed in Africans by the racist Paabo and Reich. Yes, The chicken is coming home to roost .


BTW there are a few papers out showing R1b-V88 was widespread in late mid-Neolithic Europe. Why I get time I will post.

----
Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations.

Abstract
Understanding human genetic diversity in Africa is important for interpreting the evolution of all humans, yet vast regions in Africa, such as Chad, remain genetically poorly investigated. Here, we use genotype data from 480 samples from Chad, the Near East, and southern Europe, as well as whole-genome sequencing from 19 of them, to show that many populations today derive their genomes from ancient African-Eurasian admixtures. We found evidence of early Eurasian backflow to Africa in people speaking the unclassified isolate Laal language in southern Chad and estimate from linkage-disequilibrium decay that this occurred 4,750-7,200 years ago. It brought to Africa a Y chromosome lineage (R1b-V88) whose closest relatives are widespread in present-day Eurasia; we estimate from sequence data that the Chad R1b-V88 Y chromosomes coalesced 5,700-7,300 years ago. This migration could thus have originated among Near Eastern farmers during the African Humid Period. We also found that the previously documented Eurasian backflow into Africa, which occurred ∼3,000 years ago and was thought to be mostly limited to East Africa, had a more westward impact affecting populations in northern Chad, such as the Toubou, who have 20%-30% Eurasian ancestry today. We observed a decline in heterozygosity in admixed Africans and found that the Eurasian admixture can bias inferences on their coalescent history and confound genetic signals from adaptation and archaic introgression.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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To those who don't get it. They are desperately trying to explain away "Eurasian" genes in Sun-Saharan Africa. No! I take that back! They know it is NOT from outside Africa.
They are trying to mislead the public ...again.

Quote:
“Guanche population since the first European chroniclers started writing about them, misleading and pseudo-scientific information is sometimes fed to the public and accepted as fact. It is the responsibility of scientists to provide society with evidence and help providing insight to differentiate what is fact and what is myth. This project will allow us to keep answering those questions with state-of-the-art methods in the field.”

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I haven’t read the full study but I am getting so good at this I don’t need to .

IOW, you're just going to make shit up, so why bother reading the text you'll ignore anyway.

The R1b-V88 in this study is R1b-Y8447 (note the position of the 1000 Genomes sample on the trees), it is not older than in Europe, which has R1b-M18 and R1b-V35 as well as other basal branches. Of course Africa is much less well sampled.

The only desperation is coming from you.

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xyyman
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I guess you did not read it either. Now I have.

Quote:
“We estimate that the Eurasian R1b lineages initially diverged 7,300–9,400 ya, at the time of ****the Neolithic expansions****. However, we found that the African and Eurasian R1b lineages diverged 17,900–23,000 ya, suggesting
that genetic structure was already established between the groups who expanded to Europe and Africa. R1b-V88 was previously found in Central and West Africa”

explain this to me. And don’t let that VMAT1 gene get the better of you!

Also this.

“The Toubou, despite their Islamic faith, do not show the genetic admixture detected in many Near Eastern and North African populations around 1,100 ya”
“Eurasian backflow into Africa thus appears to have been a recurrent event in the history of many Africans, given itsconsiderable impact on their genomes
“This suggests that R1b penetrated Africa independently of the Afro-asiatic language spread or passed to other groups through admixture”


---

What do you think MansaMusa? Anything sticking? Have I struck gold …again.


quote:
Originally posted by capra:
[Q]
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I haven’t read the full study but I am getting so good at this I don’t need to .

IOW, you're just going to make shit up, so why bother reading the text you'll ignore anyway.

The R1b-V88 in this study is R1b-Y8447 (note the position of the 1000 Genomes sample on the trees), it is not older than in Europe, which has R1b-M18 and R1b-V35 as well as other basal branches. Of course Africa is much less well sampled.

The only desperation is coming from you. [/QB]



--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Capra. I know as a white man this can be frustrating but I am here to talk you off the ledge. Now! YOU read the paper. African R1b is placed at 17-23K. European R1b is placed in the Neolithic. They are assuming that the African R1b came from the middle East yet the middle east samples do NOT carry similar genetic signatures. Meaning that the middle East was NOT the source. You see how confused and bizarre Europeans are and how fuckged up they are mentally.

The VMAT1 gene at work?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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How are the boys over at Davidski. Still spinning around that Steppe nonsense. Anywhere but Africa. FACTS will slap them in the face and refuse to budge. ...damn fanatics!!!!

Quote:
“Guanche population since the first European chroniclers started writing about them, misleading and pseudo-scientific information is sometimes fed to the public and accepted as fact. It is the responsibility of scientists to provide society with evidence and help providing insight to differentiate what is fact and what is myth. This project will allow us to keep answering those questions with state-of-the-art methods in the field.”

I am here to help

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I guess you did not read it either. Now I have.

I read it last November when it actually came out, dumbass. [Roll Eyes]

The split time between Eurasian and African R1b is the split between R1b-M269 and R1b-V88, look at the damn tree.

There are a total of 4 R1b-V88 samples used, three African from this sample and 1 Peruvian, the only one in the 1000 Genomes Project, which is almost certainly Jewish. There are no V88 samples from Europe or Asia included.

Exactly how many Middle Eastern samples were included in the Y chromosome analysis, xyyman? You should know this, having read the study.

quote:
African R1b is placed at 17-23K. European R1b is placed in the Neolithic.
Oh look typical xyyman dishonesty, the age of M269 is the age of European R1b but the age of V88 isn't the age of African R1b, the split time between African and European R1b is the age of African R1b but not of European R1b.

Autosomal split date is more recent for Toubou because it is lowered by Out-of-Africa admixture, obvs. As is clearly shown to have occurred by LD curves and negative f3.

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Tukuler
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Man the f3 in this reporter outta sight.

Table S5

Never, I mean never, have I seen each and every
reference pop produce a score and Z indicating
there was admixture.

Even for Ush Istim?
Cochin Jews?

???

A little tutorial somebody please on significance of score and Z in tandem.

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I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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capra
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You probably know this, Tukuler, but anyway, admixture f3 is basically looking whether allele frequencies of the target population at each SNP are in between the allele frequencies at that SNP for each reference population. The logic is straightforward, two populations mix, the resulting population is going to have allele frequencies in between its two parents'.

The closer the mix is to 50-50, the more distinctive the parent populations were from each other, the closer the reference populations are to the actual parent populations, and the less drift the admixed population has experienced after the admixture occurred, the stronger the signal.

So the magnitude of the f stat depends on several things, but you can see why you'd get a strong signal in this case. Africans and Eurasians are very distinct due to Out-of-Africa bottleneck, so even Papuans and Ust' Ishim give a modest signal. Amhara have probably had a pretty decent population size throughout their history so not intensely drifted, Toubou maybe less so but at least they aren't some tiny band of Ice Age foragers. Amhara are close to 50-50 and Toubou are something like 70-30.

It's basically ideal conditions to detect the admixture with f3.

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Tukuler
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I find
f3 stat < -0.0025 has little significance
• it improbable Yoruba-like and over 50 different
Eurasian-like populations met mingled and mated in
either Chad or Ethiopia.

Where's any anthropology archaeology mythos
etc in support of something so absurd?

I don't think the checks they put in place to weed
out African genomes in the non-Africans did the job.

All it did was maybe weed out very recent African input.

The initial OoA genomes didn't poof all vacate the premises.

They remained in Africa with the Africans
who didn't go anywhere except other places
in Continental Africa.

I'm too dim to see any other way
• Pleistocene Ust Ishim and Oceanics
• pre-Holocene 1st Americans
• modern day Cochin Jews
all got it on with Yoruba and out popped
Tubu and Amhara.

I mean, show me two other studies with
• 165 Ref1 pops
• all with negative f stats
• and Z less than -4.

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Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
I find
f3 stat < -0.0025 has little significance
• it improbable Yoruba-like and over 50 different
Eurasian-like populations met mingled and mated in
either Chad or Ethiopia.

Where's any anthropology archaeology mythos
etc in support of something so absurd?

I don't think the checks they put in place to weed
out African genomes in the non-Africans did the job.

All it did was maybe weed out very recent African input.

The initial OoA genomes didn't poof all vacate the premises.

They remained in Africa with the Africans
who didn't go anywhere except other places
in Continental Africa.

I'm too dim to see any other way
• Pleistocene Ust Ishim and Oceanics
• pre-Holocene 1st Americans
• modern day Cochin Jews
all got it on with Yoruba and out popped
Tubu and Amhara.

I mean, show me two other studies with
• 165 Ref1 pops
• all with negative f stats
• and Z less than -4.

Lmao... It does seem odd when you compare it to other studies, a lot of that is due to most researchers leaving out or not reporting as many f3 scores... what Capra says above is right, you have to just think about it like this; all the reference populations occupy the same "genetic space" (<---I made that term up for visualization) in relation to Toubu and Yorubans, they don't all represent admixture... Consider the OOA bottleneck, and YRI diversity... the test populations just happen to be between em...

If one were brave they can say "the Toubou & Amhara represents Transitional populations with OOA signals that are Native or not Attributed to prehistoric backmigrations, and this odd f3 patterns are evident of this..." but you'd have to explain the Uniparentals.

Feeling brave OG?

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Tukuler
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Then you could say that about any population without even running any tests.


Stay woke, geneticists creeping
Gon find you, catch you sleeping
Don't you close your eyes


Afaik the guy who invented F3 and F4 is explicit
in saying negative F3 stats with Z less than -4
mean there was admixture between Ref1 and Ref2
regarding X.

Even Haber's Chad report gives instances
of positive f stat or greater than -4 Z
(Gumuz).

I got no problem with his MALDER. At
least it's got non-genetic support in
an historic timeframe.

Don't want to get into his eurocentrism
yet it certainly's there in talk like
"Yoruba splitting from Eurasians" or "a
Non African component from East Africa"


Anyway I still want to see corroboration
in the form of two more reports with 160
Ref1 pops spanning time from the Pleistocene
to 1000 years ago and one Ref2 modern pop, all
with neg f3 stat and and Z less than -4. I'm
not buying a truncated published list excuse.
That's just an unwarranted supposition afaic.

Meanwhile, show me any Anthropologie archaeology
or Mythos, anything, in support of Tubu (currently
less than a million of them) extensive mixing
before Sea Peoples Punics Garamantes aGreeks or
Romans 'facilitated' such a thing.

The Tubu are Kanuri people.
Leave them be from Semitic Ethiopians.
Similarity of hair and shape of face be damned.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Elmaestro
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Uh, Shriner 2016 I believe? He & Tekola-Ayele condenses ethnic groups into populations though...
And I'm serious, what if the Amhara and the Chadic populations represent transitional populations with (or without) addition OOA admixture?

can you give me links or references to read up on the Kanuri population history... Moreso the events corroborated by malder?

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Tukuler
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Again


The Tubu are Kanuri people.
Leave them be from Semitic Ethiopians.
Similarity of hair and shape of face be damned


So I will not speak of Tubu and Ethiopians in the same breath.

Every breeding population residing between other
populations are transitional, no?


Link me to Shriner's f3 table listing 150 Ref1 pops
and one Ref2 pop, please. It must be apples to apples
comparison. All 150 must have neg f stat and Z less
than -4.


Your last question takes e by surprise because I
assume students of African Studies have a ready
reference bookshelf for that.

Without an Africana background I'm afraid you may
be misled by the references I would give you. My
grounding in Rogers ben-Jochannan Diop Jackson
Osei Clarke Williams and journals like Black World
Ybird vanSertima all allow me to filter and fine
tune a book like Murdock1959 Ajayi1972 the UNESCO
and Cambridge histories or even Davidson.

In fact I would like you to hit the stacks and
bring me back something better than
Cline's Teda of Tibesti Borku and Kawar (GSA 12)
Nachtigal's Sahara and Sudan
or the once so popular specialized anthropology roadsides
.


And I have to thank you for some of the most
engaging discussion I've had on ES for years.
So let's not start agreeing with each other.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I guess you did not read it either. Now I have.

Quote:
“We estimate that the Eurasian R1b lineages initially diverged 7,300–9,400 ya, at the time of ****the Neolithic expansions****. However, we found that the African and Eurasian R1b lineages diverged 17,900–23,000 ya, suggesting
that genetic structure was already established between the groups who expanded to Europe and Africa. R1b-V88 was previously found in Central and West Africa”

explain this to me. And don’t let that VMAT1 gene get the better of you!

Also this.

“The Toubou, despite their Islamic faith, do not show the genetic admixture detected in many Near Eastern and North African populations around 1,100 ya”
“Eurasian backflow into Africa thus appears to have been a recurrent event in the history of many Africans, given itsconsiderable impact on their genomes
“This suggests that R1b penetrated Africa independently of the Afro-asiatic language spread or passed to other groups through admixture”


---

What do you think MansaMusa? Anything sticking? Have I struck gold …again.


This info correlates with the following.


quote:
Nevertheless, Villabruna 1, more then the majority of his contemporaries, retains climatic adaptation typical of the ancestral African population.
quote:
These data suggest that while Villabruna 1 retains more ancestral condition indicative of African origin than its contemporaries, this specimen fits well in the microevolutionary process that affected European Upper Paleolithic populations leading to the progressive acquisition of body proportions typical of temperate regions.
quote:
However, mitocondrial DNA analyses carried out on prehistoric human remains from this region highlighted in Villabruna 1 a sequence not observed in contemporary European populations (Di Benedetto et al., 2000), raising the possibility of genetic discontinuity between the last hunter-gatherers from the Alps and subsequent populations.
 -
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Capra. I know as a white man this can be frustrating but I am here to talk you off the ledge. Now! YOU read the paper. African R1b is placed at 17-23K. European R1b is placed in the Neolithic. They are assuming that the African R1b came from the middle East yet the middle east samples do NOT carry similar genetic signatures. Meaning that the middle East was NOT the source. You see how confused and bizarre Europeans are and how fuckged up they are mentally.

The VMAT1 gene at work?

They can't abruptly go to the main source of Central Africa, after the condition for over a decade. There needs to be a transition.
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Ish Geber
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"it improbable Yoruba-like and over 50 different Eurasian-like populations met mingled and mated in either Chad or Ethiopia. "

That's crazy.

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Again


The Tubu are Kanuri people.
Leave them be from Semitic Ethiopians.
Similarity of hair and shape of face be damned


So I will not speak of Tubu and Ethiopians in the same breath.

Every breeding population residing between other
populations are transitional, no?


Link me to Shriner's f3 table listing 150 Ref1 pops
and one Ref2 pop, please. It must be apples to apples
comparison. All 150 must have neg f stat and Z less
than -4.


Your last question takes e by surprise because I
assume students of African Studies have a ready
reference bookshelf for that.

Without an Africana background I'm afraid you may
be misled by the references I would give you. My
grounding in Rogers ben-Jochannan Diop Jackson
Osei Clarke Williams and journals like Black World
Ybird vanSertima all allow me to filter and fine
tune a book like Murdock1959 Ajayi1972 the UNESCO
and Cambridge histories or even Davidson.

In fact I would like you to hit the stacks and
bring me back something better than
Cline's Teda of Tibesti Borku and Kawar (GSA 12)
Nachtigal's Sahara and Sudan
or the once so popular specialized anthropology roadsides
.


And I have to thank you for some of the most
engaging discussion I've had on ES for years.
So let's not start agreeing with each other.

Amazing post.
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Elmaestro
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@Tukuler, check out the last few pages of the supp.
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep26565

And I understand what you mean from an ethic POV (comparing the Toubou with Amhara), but I was reading some old ass studies that were suggesting some deep rooted similarities between the two geographically distant Chadic & Eritrean populations. I also find the significance of all these f3's odd, There might be pre-semetic Nilo-Saharan phylogenetic connection there, who knows...

I'm trying to get up on my history game, I hated history growing up, however genetics was kinda like a gateway to spark my interest in the topic. I was just a kid with many teachers, some of which were part of Academia. All who interested me in exposition and lore; Some were stories others were factual.. I'm at a point now where I'm tired of stories, I don't think I can be misled at this point in time. Thanks for the homework assignment though.

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the lioness,
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VIDEO:

(Toubou tribe, Libya)

Along Gaddafi's Road

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OatO13H89Uk

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Tukuler
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@ el Maestro


Tubu are part of the Nile to Lake Chad world via Sudan.
Maybe my books are too old. Hit me with Tubu Red Sea refs.
I don't have any. Not even in Palmer.


Shriner list all combos for all his ethnies.
No f stats but 270 or so significant Zs.
40 some (?) were Cushitic tests showing
admixture (to me, meaning components).

So no, Shriner doesn't have anything near
f3 OneTestPop: 165EurasianPopSubstitutes, OneStaticAfricanPop
all resulting in Z < -4.


Yeah, I got tired of 'stories' too.
By the time I came here in '04
I could no longer post to either
Rashidi's nor Walker's YahooGroups
Not because of them but because of
their Amen Corner posters who could
only tow the Right On Brother partyline.

It's been a ball. See ya in PM land or maybe ESR.

Kwaheri!


PS anthropology roadsides was a typo
for ethnographic broadsides

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Ish Geber
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The Tubu reside at Central-Zahara this is where they have been for thousands upon thousands of years as pastoralist. The reagion is hard to access for outsiders. I too have never heard of Tubus at the Red Sea.
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capra
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Negative f3 indicates admixture between populations related to the reference populations, not with those populations themselves; each individual reference population is not implied to have contributed individually! There's a shitload of significant f3 values because they included a shitload of different Eurasians and all Eurasians are related, so each can be a reference for the real ancestral population(s). That's all. The absolute number is irrelevant, it's just adding more subgroups of East Asians, more subgroups of Europeans, more subgroups of Amerindians, or whatever, that all have very similar scores.

Eurasians would share drift with an Out-of-Africa-related population that remained in Africa and hence could give an f3 signal when serving as references for it. However, a sister group to Out-of-Africa won't be more closely related to one Eurasian population than another, but we see a big difference in f3 between different reference populations; actually they probably would be less related than Ust' Ishim, and he gives a weak signal. Could be partial element though I think.

Haber et al connect the admixture in Toubou to that in the Horn based on the similarity of the dates, but I don't find that convincing. What is the actual historical connection supposed to be? Also, LD dates tend to be downward-biased and newer events can conceal older ones.

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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
There's a shitload of significant f3 values because they included a shitload of different Eurasians and all Eurasians are related, so each can be a reference for the real ancestral population(s). That's all.

[Big Grin]

These reference populations are offsprings from the African.

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Clyde Winters
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Now Geneticists are pretending V88 (R1b1a2) is M269 in relation to the migration of the CHG and EF populations from Africa into Eurasia, These Africans, the Kushites who introduced archery, farming and cattle rearing to Eurasia.

Martiniano R, Cassidy LM, Ó'Maoldúin R, McLaughlin R, Silva NM, Manco L, et al. (2017) The population genomics of archaeological transition in west Iberia: Investigation of ancient substructure using imputation and haplotype-based methods. PLoS Genet 13(7): e1006852. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pgen.1006852

.
Abstract


Recent ancient DNA work has demonstrated the significant genetic impact of mass migrations from the Steppe into Central and Northern Europe during the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age. In Iberia, archaeological change at the level of material culture and funerary rituals has been reported during this period, however, the genetic impact associated with this cultural transformation has not yet been estimated. In order to investigate this, we sequence Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from Portugal, which we compare to other ancient and present-day individuals. Genome-wide imputation of a large dataset of ancient samples enabled sensitive methods for detecting population structure and selection in ancient samples. We revealed subtle genetic differentiation between the Portuguese Neolithic and Bronze Age samples suggesting a markedly reduced influx in Iberia compared to other European regions. Furthermore, we predict individual height in ancients, suggesting that stature was reduced in the Neolithic and affected by subsequent admixtures. Lastly, we examine signatures of strong selection in important traits and the timing of their origins.
.


 -

The authors argue that the three Bronze Age individuals carrying R1b1a2, represent R-M269, but this is false they represent V88 and M18. Moreover, they fail to show discontinuity because, we find R1b1a (R-L754) carried by Villabruna, who lived 15kya in north-west Italy, and was a member of the Epigravettian culture. R-L754 has a high frequentcy among Africans.

V88 and the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype

Euronuts have no limit to their blatant and stealthily rewriting of history to "whiteout" Black and African people. The aDNA of the CHG and EF of Europe is R1b1a2. Although ISOGG 216 makes it clear this haplogroup is V88, in the research literature they are referring to this clade (R1b1a2) as R1b-P312/M269 , eventhough M269 is R1b1a1a2.

The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

when did this happen?
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

when did this happen?
I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.
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Clyde Winters
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 -

The presence of North African Neolithic mtDNA haplogroups H,X,U and K in Iberia support the early migration of Kushite hunter-gatherers into this region .

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Capra. I know as a white man this can be frustrating but I am here to talk you off the ledge. Now! YOU read the paper. African R1b is placed at 17-23K. European R1b is placed in the Neolithic. They are assuming that the African R1b came from the middle East yet the middle east samples do NOT carry similar genetic signatures. Meaning that the middle East was NOT the source. You see how confused and bizarre Europeans are and how fuckged up they are mentally.

The VMAT1 gene at work?

The idea of Middle East Africans carrying R1b into Europe is not so confusing when you study the history of the Niger-Congo speaking Kushites. The ancestors of the Kushites belonged to the Ounanian Culture (here). The Ounanians were hunter-gatherers that used bow and arrows and herded cattle, they founded Nabta Playa.

 -

The IAM people [Early Neolithic Moroccans] (Fergel et al, 2017), were nothing more than hunter-gatherer Kushites that had originally belonged to the Ounanian Culture (Winters, 2012, 2017b). The Ounanians, like their Kushite descendants were great archers and based their civilization on hunting using the bow, and limited cattle domestication find out more at this web page .

In the Eastern Sahara many individual types of tanged and shouldered arrowheads occur on early Holocene prehistoric sites along with Green Saharan/Wavy-line pottery (Drake et al ,2010; Vernet et al, 2007) .
.

 -  -

.

'Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic' wavy-line, dotted wavy line and walking-comb pottery was used from Lake Turkana to Nabta Playa, in Tibestim , Mauritania, on into in the Hoggar, in Niger. This pottery evolved into the Beaker Bell ceramics.

The Ounanian culture was not isolated in Africa. It was spread into the Levant. As a result, we have in the archaeological literature the name Ounan-Harif point. This name was proposed for the tanged points at Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba .

 -

Harifian is a specialized regional cultural development of the Epipalaeolithic of the Negev Desert. Harifian has close connections with the late Mesolithic cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Deserts of Egypt, whose tool assemblage resembles that of the Harifian.

The tangled Ounanian points are also found at Foum Arguin . These points were used from Oued Draa, in southern Morocco, to the Banc d’Arguin and from the Atlantic shore to the lowlands of northwestern Sahara in Mauritania . We now have DNA from Ounanian sites in Morocco.


All the burials in Ifri n’Amr o’Moussa site IAM1-IAM7 , are devoid of any artifacts, except for an original funeral ritual, which consists of placing a millstone on the skull (5) . These burials were dated from 4,850 to 5,250 BCE, they carried U6, M1, T2, X and K (Fregel et al, 2017). This suggest that Africans were already carrying this mtDNA.

The spread of the Ounanians to Harif in the Levant explains the presence of these Kushite clades in the Levant and Anatolia. It also explains how the Bell Beaker/Kushites took their pottery and cattle from Anatolia into the Steppes on into Iberia, where they joined hunter-gatherer Kushites who had settled Iberia several millennia before them.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

when did this happen?
I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.
So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

when did this happen?
I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.
So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

.

 -


.The people who lived in Europe at this time were the Khoisan and Pygmies (Anu). The Khoisan and Pygmies carried R1. It was the Khoisan who probably deposited R1 in Siberia. Villabruna man , who lived 15kya in north-west Italy, who carried R1b1a--a member of the Epigravettian culture was probably a Khoisan.

You did not read my post. The ancestors of the Kushites (Niger-Congo speakers) were the Ounanians. The first civilization founded by these Niger-Congo speakers was Maa.

I call these people Proto-Saharans . In the history of mankind they were called the Kushites.

Testimony of the great heritage of the Kushites, resulted from their boldness in trade and seafaring expeditions. The authors of ancient Indian literature claimed that the Kushites ruled the world for 7000 years. According to Epiphanies, the age of the Kushites extended from the Flood to the age of Terah, the father of Abraham, the prophet of the Jews and Muslims.

After the Sahara-Sahel became more arid they formed the Kushite Empire. The origin of the Kushites from the Ounanian culture, would explain why the Vedic literature claims the Kushites ruled 7000 years

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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Peştera cu Oase, Romania.

 -

Neanderthals are thought to have disappeared in Europe ~39,000–41,000 years ago but they have contributed one to three percent of the DNA of present-day people in Eurasia1. Here, we analyze DNA from a 37,000–42,000-year-old2 modern human from Peştera cu Oase, Romania.

We find that on the order of six to nine percent of the genome of the Oase individual is derived from Neanderthals, more than any other modern human sequenced to date. Three chromosomal segments of Neanderthal ancestry are over 50 centimorgans in size, indicating that this individual had a Neanderthal ancestor as recently as four to six generations back. However, the Oase individual does not share more alleles with later Europeans than with East Asians, suggesting that the Oase population did not contribute substantially to later humans in Europe.

Oase DNA

YDNA K2a* has been found only in the remains of two Paleolithic individuals from Siberia and Eastern Europe, while K2a1* has been found only in living individuals from India and South East Asia.
K2* (M526) has been found in an estimated 27% of indigenous Australians
Oase-1 belongs to a basal subclade of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N.

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


You did not read my post. The ancestors of the Kushites (Niger-Congo speakers) were the Ounanians. The first civilization founded by these Niger-Congo speakers was Maa.

I call these people Proto-Saharans . In the history of mankind they were called the Kushites.

Testimony of the great heritage of the Kushites, resulted from their boldness in trade and seafaring expeditions.


The authors of ancient Indian literature claimed that the Kushites ruled the world for 7000 years. According to Epiphanies, the age of the Kushites extended from the Flood to the age of Terah, the father of Abraham, the prophet of the Jews and Muslims.

After the Sahara-Sahel became more arid they formed the Kushite Empire. The origin of the Kushites from the Ounanian culture, would explain why the Vedic literature claims the Kushites ruled 7000 years [/QB]

The Hindu Kush or Kushan Empire of the mountain range near the Afghan-Pakistan border

has nothing to do with

the KIngdom of Kush that was in Sudan

The art has little similarity nor the DNA in these regions. Obviously the people are of different ethnicity. The people of the Hindu Kush were described by Herodotus as straight haired as they are today, while the Ethiopians described as the most woolly-haired of all people

It is merely a similar sounding word, so you have been wrong for many years

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


You did not read my post. The ancestors of the Kushites (Niger-Congo speakers) were the Ounanians. The first civilization founded by these Niger-Congo speakers was Maa.

I call these people Proto-Saharans . In the history of mankind they were called the Kushites.

Testimony of the great heritage of the Kushites, resulted from their boldness in trade and seafaring expeditions.


The authors of ancient Indian literature claimed that the Kushites ruled the world for 7000 years. According to Epiphanies, the age of the Kushites extended from the Flood to the age of Terah, the father of Abraham, the prophet of the Jews and Muslims.

After the Sahara-Sahel became more arid they formed the Kushite Empire. The origin of the Kushites from the Ounanian culture, would explain why the Vedic literature claims the Kushites ruled 7000 years

The Hindu Kush or Kushan Empire of the mountain range near the Afghan-Pakistan border

has nothing to do with

the KIngdom of Kush that was in Sudan

The art has little similarity nor the DNA in these regions. Obviously the people are of different ethnicity. The people of the Hindu Kush were described by Herodotus as straight haired as they are today, while the Ethiopians described as the most woolly-haired of all people

It is merely a similar sounding word, so you have been wrong for many years [/QB]

LOL. The Vedic literature was not talking about the Kushan.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Peştera cu Oase, Romania.

 -

Neanderthals are thought to have disappeared in Europe ~39,000–41,000 years ago but they have contributed one to three percent of the DNA of present-day people in Eurasia1. Here, we analyze DNA from a 37,000–42,000-year-old2 modern human from Peştera cu Oase, Romania.

We find that on the order of six to nine percent of the genome of the Oase individual is derived from Neanderthals, more than any other modern human sequenced to date. Three chromosomal segments of Neanderthal ancestry are over 50 centimorgans in size, indicating that this individual had a Neanderthal ancestor as recently as four to six generations back. However, the Oase individual does not share more alleles with later Europeans than with East Asians, suggesting that the Oase population did not contribute substantially to later humans in Europe.

Oase DNA

YDNA K2a* has been found only in the remains of two Paleolithic individuals from Siberia and Eastern Europe, while K2a1* has been found only in living individuals from India and South East Asia.
K2* (M526) has been found in an estimated 27% of indigenous Australians
Oase-1 belongs to a basal subclade of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N.

 -

This is what makes the discovery of haplogroup K , among the Neolithic North Africans most interesting.

Moreover, I have argued on this site and in published articles that the Khoisan took the N clade to Eurasia.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

when did this happen?
I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.
So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

when did this happen?
I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.
So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

 -

THen what defines being a Kushite?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

This is what makes the discovery of haplogroup K , among the Neolithic North Africans most interesting.

where was haplogroup K discovered in Africa from neolithic times?

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Moreover, I have argued on this site and in published articles that the Khoisan took the N clade to Eurasia.

Ridiculous, N is found at low frequencies in Africa and East is where it is found. Haplogroup N it is not characteristic of Khosians.
The Rendille of Kenya perhaps have the highest frequencies 8-10%

stop making up stuff the idea that the Khoisan took the N clade to Eurasia is insane

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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716304487

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

----
Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations.

Abstract
Understanding human genetic diversity in Africa is important for interpreting the evolution of all humans, yet vast regions in Africa, such as Chad, remain genetically poorly investigated. Here, we use genotype data from 480 samples from Chad, the Near East, and southern Europe, as well as whole-genome sequencing from 19 of them, to show that many populations today derive their genomes from ancient African-Eurasian admixtures. We found evidence of early Eurasian backflow to Africa in people speaking the unclassified isolate Laal language in southern Chad and estimate from linkage-disequilibrium decay that this occurred 4,750-7,200 years ago. It brought to Africa a Y chromosome lineage (R1b-V88) whose closest relatives are widespread in present-day Eurasia; we estimate from sequence data that the Chad R1b-V88 Y chromosomes coalesced 5,700-7,300 years ago. This migration could thus have originated among Near Eastern farmers during the African Humid Period. We also found that the previously documented Eurasian backflow into Africa, which occurred ∼3,000 years ago and was thought to be mostly limited to East Africa, had a more westward impact affecting populations in northern Chad, such as the Toubou, who have 20%-30% Eurasian ancestry today. We observed a decline in heterozygosity in admixed Africans and found that the Eurasian admixture can bias inferences on their coalescent history and confound genetic signals from adaptation and archaic introgression. [/QB]

^ more:


Multiple Eurasian Admixtures in Africa after 6,000 ya
We have previously reported massive gene flow ∼3,000 ya from Eurasians to Ethiopian populations.4 Here, we reassess the presence of Eurasian ancestry in Africa by using f3 statistics25 in the form of f3(X; Eurasian, Yoruba), where a negative value with a Z score < −4 indicates that X is a mixture of Africans and Eurasians. We found, as expected, that most Ethiopians are a mixture of Africans and Eurasians. An exception is the Gumuz population, where f3(Gumuz; Eurasian, Yoruba) is always positive. The Gumuz language belongs to the Nilo-Saharan family, which could have isolated the Gumuz from the Afro-Asiatic-speaking Ethiopians.

____________]

We tested the Greek, Lebanese, CEU, and CHB (Han Chinese in Beijing, China) split times from the Yoruba and found that all populations split from the Yoruba ∼70,000–80,000 ya, implying that the low proportions of African admixture in the Greeks and Lebanese
did not detectably affect the estimates of relative cross-coalescence rate (Figure S6A). We next tested the Toubou, who have ∼30% Eurasian ancestry. The Toubou appeared to split from Eurasians ∼30,000–40,000 ya, a time more recent than expected considering the African-Eurasian split 60,000–80,000 ya

we found in Chad a Eurasian Y chromosome lineage (Y haplogroup R1b-V88) that had penetrated all Chadian populations examined but was absent or rare from the Ethiopians examined (Table S4; Figure S1). From whole Y chromosome sequences (Figure S2), we estimate that the Chadian R1b-V88 chromosomes sampled emerged 5,700–7,300 ya (Figure 3B), a time comparable to the Laal speaker admixture dates (4,750–7,200 ya) estimated from genome-wide LD-decay patterns.


The first event occurred 2,850–3,500 ya (Z score = 11), a time close to the date of mixture in East Africans 2,500–2,700 ya (Z score = 26). The second mixture event occurred much more recently at 170–260 ya (Z score = 5). In southern Chad, we detected mixture events that were more ancient than those in the north. Mixture occurred 3,900–4,800 ya (Z score = 10) in the Sara and 4,750–7,200 ya (Z score = 5) in the Laal speakers (Figure 3A). These time estimates overlap, and we interpret them as signals from the same admixture event,


We found that, in addition to influencing the relative cross-coalescence rate, admixture can also inflate putative signals of positive selection. For example, using the PBS31 to detect recent positive selection that occurred in the Toubou after their divergence from the Yoruba, we found signals of selection on MCM6 (MIM: 601806) rs4988235, a variant associated with the lactase-persistence phenotype. This SNP was previously found to be under strong positive selection in Europeans, where it was probably advantageous to individuals living in pastoralist societies.34 The frequency of this variant in the Toubou is 2%, and it is absent from the sub-Saharan African and other Chadic samples (the Sara and Laal speakers) examined here. Although this SNP appears to be a candidate for selection, we suggest that it has probably drifted neutrally in the Toubou after the Eurasian gene flow: the Toubou have ∼30% Eurasian ancestry from a population similar to the Greeks, who have 13% derived alleles at rs4988235, suggesting an expectation of ∼3.9% of the derived allele simply from admixture.


We detected the earliest Eurasian migrations to Africa in the Laal-speaking people, an isolated language group of fewer than 800 speakers who inhabit southern Chad. We estimate that mixture occurred 4,750–7,200 ya, thus after the Neolithic transition in the Near East, a period characterized by exponential growth in human population size. Environmental changes during this period (which possibly triggered the Neolithic transition) also facilitated human migrations. The African Humid Period, for example, was a humid phase across North Africa that peaked 6,000–9,000 ya37 and biogeographically connected Africa to Eurasia, facilitating human movement across these regions.38 In Chad, we found a Y chromosome lineage (R1b-V88) that we estimate emerged during the same period 5,700–7,300 ya (Figure 3B). The closest related Y chromosome groups today are widespread in Eurasia and have been previously associated with human expansions to Europe.39,40 We estimate that the Eurasian R1b lineages initially diverged 7,300–9,400 ya, at the time of the Neolithic expansions. However, we found that the African and Eurasian R1b lineages diverged 17,900–23,000 ya, suggesting that genetic structure was already established between the groups who expanded to Europe and Africa. R1b-V88 was previously found in Central and West Africa and was associated with a mid-Holocene migration of Afro-asiatic speakers through the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin.8 In the populations we examined, we found R1b in the Toubou and Sara, who speak Nilo-Saharan languages, and also in the Laal people, who speak an unclassified language. This suggests that R1b penetrated Africa independently of the Afro-asiatic language spread or passed to other groups through admixture.
In addition to the early Eurasian migration to Africa ∼6,000 ya, a second migration ∼3,000 ya affected the Toubou population in northern Chad but had no detectable genetic impact on other Chadian populations. This migration appears to be associated with the previously reported Eurasian backflow into East Africa, given that the source populations and dates of mixture are similar. Occurring at the start of the Iron Age, these migrations could have been facilitated by advances in warfare and transportation technology in the Near East. It is uncertain why the impact of this migration in Chad affected only the Toubou.

The Toubou, despite their Islamic faith, do not show the genetic admixture detected in many Near Eastern and North African populations around 1,100 ya,41 suggesting conversion without population mixing at this time. They did, however, receive additional Eurasian ancestry in the past 200 years from a source represented by North African populations such as Tunisians, Mozabite, Algerians, and Sahrawi (Figure 3C). This recent interaction could have been promoted by the nomadic lifestyle of the present-day Toubou and a shared Muslim religion with North Africans. Unsurprisingly, we also detected a likely mixing of Chad populations in the sample from the capital, which could be even more recent.


we detected Neanderthal ancestry in admixed Africans and found it to be proportional to their Eurasian ancestry. Similarly, in admixed Near Easterners, we found a decrease in Neanderthal ancestry proportional to the gene flow they have received from Africans


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Note: in this article in Table S4 as well as in Figure S1 (not pictured) they identify R-V88 as R1b1a-L761

__________________________________________________

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929716304487-mmc1.pdf

Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations.


we found in Chad a Eurasian Y chromosome lineage (Y haplogroup R1b-V88) that had
penetrated all Chadian populations examined but was absent or rare from the Ethiopians examined
(Table S4; Figure S1).


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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

when did this happen?
I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.
So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

 -

you're not keeping up with professor Winters >>


quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

there is 100 years of archaeological research that places the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC to 1492 AD. 1492 was when the Moors were forced from Iberia.




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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Note: in this article in Table S4 as well as in Figure S1 (not pictured) they identify R-V88 as R1b1a-L761

__________________________________________________

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929716304487-mmc1.pdf

Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations.


we found in Chad a Eurasian Y chromosome lineage (Y haplogroup R1b-V88) that had
penetrated all Chadian populations examined but was absent or rare from the Ethiopians examined
(Table S4; Figure S1).


 -

bs. Cite any archaeological research supporting a back migration to Africa, by any Eurasian population.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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what's bs? you have quoted a chart with the Hap frequencies not any statement about back migration

and as for back migration you have already stated there was migration between Iberia and Africa

- so how would you know in what direction it was?

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
what's bs? you have quoted a chart with the Hap frequencies not any statement about back migration

and as for back migration you have already stated there was migration between Iberia and Africa

- so how would you know in what direction it was?

Stop making stuff up. The migration was Africa to Iberia See:

A GENETIC CHRONOLOGY OF AFRICAN Y-CHROMOSOMES R-V88
AND R-M269 IN AFRICA AND EURASIA

*Clyde Winters

ABSTRACT
There is a global distribution of Y-Chromosome R-M343 subclades across the African continent. The
major subclades are R-M269 and R-V88. The V88 subclade is the oldest clade to separate from R-M343.
The V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across a wide geographic area from
Iberia, eastward to Germany and Samara. This would place carriers of relatives of V88 among the
Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. Given the wide distribution of V88 and M269 in Africa and Neolithic
Europe suggest that, the Bell Beaker and Yamnaya people were Africans, not Indo-Europeans, because
these cultural complexes and the people who practiced these cultures originated in Africa.


See: http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf


In this paper I cite at least 20 articles supporting the African settlement of Europe.

Now it's your turn cite at least one article that cites a back migration from Iberia to Africa supported by archaeological evidence, before Kushites had already settled Europe.
.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across a wide geographic area from
Iberia, eastward to Germany and Samara. This would place carriers of relatives of V88 among the
Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. Given the wide distribution of V88 and M269 in Africa and Neolithic
Europe suggest that, the Bell Beaker and Yamnaya people were Africans, not Indo-Europeans, because
these cultural complexes and the people who practiced these cultures originated in Africa.


See: http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf


In this paper I cite at least 20 articles supporting the African settlement of Europe.

Now it's your turn cite at least one article that cites a back migration from Iberia to Africa supported by archaeological evidence, before Kushites had already settled Europe.
. [/QB]

 -
Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"

^^ I see you have this chart in your article.
Funny thing is that I made that chart as a joke. That's my handy work

I need to be properly credited for that in your references

Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across a wide geographic area from
Iberia, eastward to Germany and Samara. This would place carriers of relatives of V88 among the
Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. Given the wide distribution of V88 and M269 in Africa and Neolithic
Europe suggest that, the Bell Beaker and Yamnaya people were Africans, not Indo-Europeans, because
these cultural complexes and the people who practiced these cultures originated in Africa.


See: http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf


In this paper I cite at least 20 articles supporting the African settlement of Europe.

Now it's your turn cite at least one article that cites a back migration from Iberia to Africa supported by archaeological evidence, before Kushites had already settled Europe.
.

 -
Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"

^^ I see you have this chart in your article.
Funny thing is that I made that chart as a joke. That's my handy work

I need to be properly credited for that in your references

Figure 1 "Lioness Productions" [/QB]

The map represents the two migrations of Kushite carriers of R1b into Eurasia and its advance across Europe.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The map represents the two migrations of Kushite carriers of R1b into Eurasia and its advance across Europe.

Don't tell me what the map represents I made it !!!

It's the wiki R1b map and I added the blue arrows and text

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b


 -
Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"

Does the root of the blue arrows emanate from the Kingdom Of Kush that was in Sudan ?
No silly rabbit , from Cameroon

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The map represents the two migrations of Kushite carriers of R1b into Eurasia and its advance across Europe.

Don't tell me what the map represents I made it !!!

It's the wiki R1b map and I added the blue arrows and text

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b


 -
Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"

Does the root of the blue arrows emanate from the Kingdom Of Kush that was in Sudan ?
No silly rabbit , from Cameroon

Cameroon was part of the Maa civlization. It was from these area that the kushites/ Proto-Saharans migrated into the Nile Valley and Eurasia.

Stop making stupid comments you know that the vast majority of people in West Africa today came from North Africa , Levant, Sahel and Nile Valley.

 -
.
The Sumerians came from Middle Africa, they belonged to the Maa Confederation.
.
 -

.
The Sumerians were part of the Proto-Saharan civilization and spread to Mesopotamia after 3000 BC. The Sumerians spoke a language related to the Niger-Congo group and Dravidians. The Sumerians traded with Magan (Egypt) and Meluha (Punt/Northeast Africa).

The Sumerians made it clear they were Kushites and called their Kings, the "Kings of Kish".
.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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There was no "Maa Confederation" You made that up

That's making up stuff, you agreed you would stop doing that

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Fertile African Crescent
.
 -
.

.
 -

.
Much of what we call African civilization developed in Africa during the African Aqualithic. During this period in the Fertile African Crescent these folk have left beautiful drawings which illustrate their way of life in Tassilli n'Ajjer, and the northern foothills of the Hoggar massif. I call the population that lived in the Fertile African Crescent: Proto-Saharans.


During the African Aqualithic, there was higher rainfall in Africa which made the rivers longer and more permanent. This caused rivers to swell and burst over there basins. The people used wavy line pottery. They also invented agriculture and domesticated many animals.

In ancient times a wonderful civilization existed in the Highland regions of Middle Africa. In this wonderful civilization 6000 years ago lived the ancestors of the Dravidians, Black Africans, Elamites and the Sumerians. Today we call this Proto-Saharan civilization the "Fertile African Crescent", because the highland regions in which the Proto-Saharans l lived formed a crescent shape across the Saharan region of middle Africa.


The historic gods of Africa and Asia were of Proto-Saharan origin.Concepts concerning these ancient gods or great ancestors were first developed around a gigantic lake that formerly existed in Middle Africa around 8000 years ago. This is supported by the fact that the Saharan cultures have resemblances to those of Nubia. This lake was known in ancient times as Lake Tritonis.


Lake Tritonis was situated in the Libyan desert. Here as early as 7000 B.C., there was a slow transition from hunting , to cattle pastoralism. The prehistoric appearance of a great lake in Libya has recently been supported by satellite pictures of the Eastern Desert which indicate that a lake was located in the Qattara depression of northwest Egypt.


Pastoralism and fishing preceded food production in the ancient Sahara. It appears that a hunter-fisher-gatherer group which clearly specialized in the hunting of animals (as evidenced by the arrowheads) became animal herders, since they were keenly aware of the habits of game and therefore made the shift from hunter-fisher-gatherer to animal husbandry rapidly once climatic conditions in the Sahara made it impossible to collect grains.


Moderate climatic conditions made it possible for the Proto-Saharans to engage in intensive plant domestication. Food surpluses led to the rise of towns and cities, complex political organization. social ranking of individuals in society, and craft specialization as certain clans and ethnic groups became more sedentary.


The linguistic evidence indicates that the Proto-Saharans practiced a form of intensive agriculture characterized by the use of the hoe, related water storage and irrigation techniques plus the application of fertilizers to the cultivated land.


The ability to produce surplus food led to an increase in population, changes in social organization and class distinctions. Naturally, population increases forced the ancestors of the Proto-Saharans to spill over into more marginal areas. This population pressure probably forced many Proto-Saharan clans to domesticate plants and animals to preserve traditional levels of food production.


AGRICULTURAL DOMESTICATION


Agriculture has long been practiced in Nubia. The most ancient grasses collected in Africa were found in Nubia. Here barley and sorghum was collected. As early as 17,000 B.C., barley was being cultivated at Tushka. These farmers were probably the Anu.


One of the most ancient sites for agricultural domestication in Nubia or the Central Sudan, was discovered at Es Shaheinab dating to 4000 B.C. Here riverine folk bred goats and sheep. They also engaged in fishing and collected grasses.


Kadero is another ancient site of agriculture in Sudan. Here as early as 3310 B.C., sorghum and millet were being cultivated/ collected.


Other African grasses domesticated outside of the Nile area include guinea corn, bulrush millet and fonio. The earliest evidence of bulrush millet dates to 1200 B.C., and comes from Mauritania. By 3000 B.C. rice was being cultivated.


Formerly it was believed that the Niger Valley was a center of plant domestication. The earliest northwest African sites for agriculture include Dar Tichitt Daima ,Kurrasakata and Karkarchinkat which date to around 2000 B.C. Today archaeological research indicates that much of the Niger area was thick forest until quite recently. (Winters 1986) It would appear that the present inhabitants of West Africa came from the North and the Nile Valley.


The Proto-Saharans claimed descent from the Maa or Fish Confederation. The Maa Confederation includes the Egyptians, Elamites, Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians. In honor of the great ancestor: Maa, they worshipped a god called: Amun, Amon, or Amma. In honor of this great ancestor the descendants of the Proto-Saharans use the term Ma, to denote greatness or highness, e.g., Manding " Maga" and Dravidian Ma. Other Proto-Saharan tribes claimed direct descent from the great Maa, founder of the Fish Confederation. For example, the Manding call themselves Ma-nde: children of Ma, while the Sumerians were called Ma-Gar-ri (exalted God's children).


The Proto-Saharans share place names. Evidence for shared place names has been discovered by Dr. Vamos-Toth Bator. Dr. Vamos-Toth Bator, calls this ancient civilization ---root culture-- Tamana. The term Tamana can be interpreted in the Manding and Dravidian language as "Strongplace","Stronghold" or "Original Settlement". The term Tamana is one of over 1,000,000 place names Dr. Vamos-Toth has found which link Africa, Asia, and Europe.


The term Tamana, was a popular place name for the Proto-Saharans, as they expanded out of the nuclear Proto-Saharan region, to signify a colonial city or trade center established among hostile alien tribes.


The Proto-Saharans also had their own writing system. This writing system was used by the Dravidians in the Indus Valley, the Manding in the Western Sahara, and the Egyptians.


The ancient Proto-Saharan script was a logo syllabic system. The words used to write this script were monosyllabic. The first script used by the Proto-Saharans in the Fertile African Crescent was Thinite.


Religion

Around 10000 years ago pluvial conditions existed in the Sahara which led to the creation of numerous river beds now buried under tons of sand. Due to the abundance of streams, rivers and lakes in Proto-Saharan Africa men who were powerful, were men who could harness the powerful water of the numerous streams and rivers. Such men as these were recognized as demigods or great ancestors. For example in Sumer and Egypt gods and demigods were described as "reed-boat navigators". In Egypt some of these great men that became gods include Thoth, and Osiris.


According to the Olympian Creation Myth the earliest groups to appear on earth were the Libyco-Thracians. The Libyans were Proto-Saharans, as were the original Thracians, who were descendants of the Kushite and Egyptian troops established at Trace , by Sesostris (Thutmose III or Ramses II),when he conquered Asia and Europe.


Apollonius Rhodius tells us that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Tritonis in Libya. The goddess Athene, was called Neith by the Egyptians and Nia, by the Manding and Eteo-Cretans of Minoan civilization.


The early gods of these Proto-Saharans included a serpent, the sun: Hercules, Amon/Aman/Amma, and Kush or Khons. In Egypt and Kush, both Amon and Khons were depicted as coal-black in accordance with tradition. The Kushites also worshipped a "lord of the mountains", which is analogous to Murugan, a Dravidian god in India. In India, Khrisna, Mal ,Vishnu, and Kali were usually depicted as black in color. Kali, was held to be a form of Paravati, consort of Siva. In addition the Dravidian god of the pastoral region:Mullai, was the black god Mayan, who was beloved by the milkmaids and cattle herders.


The earliest gods associated with the great hidden all powerful god were associated with the Sky. They believed in an unseen universal force called "Ko " or " Ka". As a result the Proto-Saharans offered prayers to "Ka", e.g., Egyptian Ka 'vital force', Dravidian Ka-n, Manding Kani, and Magyar/Hungarian kaan. This Ka, is also often associated with snakes,rain and the sky.


THE GOD MAA


Many of the Proto-Saharan beliefs originated during the wet African Aqualithic period. As a result their gods, who had once been great ancestors were referred to as "Fish" or "reed-boat navigators". This common god was called Maa , the man fish (of Eridu) in Mesopotamia and Syria and the ithyphallic forms, the prototype of Amon/Aman in Egypt ; and the goddess Minaksi, of Madura in South India the goddess of the fish eyes, the Malabar fish bearer of Mana and the sacred fishes of the Mapilla of the west coast of the Dekkan. In the languages of the Manding Maa, is used to refer to the ancient inhabitants of the African continent, and the invisible spirit who inhabits the water courses.In Egypt Maat, meant divine truth and justice.


Among the Proto-Saharans the name Maa, for their great ancestor/god was joined to many ethnonyms. The descendants of the Maa clan, claim descent from Maa, as evident in the name Mande, for the parent group of the Manding of West Africa. Mande means, Ma-nde or "children of Ma". Some Dravidians of South India were also members of the Mande Superclan, as illustrated in the Kannada, Telugu and Tulu, Dravidian tribes that use the terms Mande or Mandi to denote "people or persons". The Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri "God's exalted children".


The Proto-Saharans in honor of great Maa, use the term "ma", to denote greatness, for example Manding: Maga; Sumerian: Mag; and Dravidian: Ma.The ma, element was also used in the names for their rulers e.g., Menes of Egypt; the Mannan of the Dravidians; and the Mansa of the Manding.


The Mal, of the Dravidians is just another form of Ma. Mal, is the Fish. He was the prototype of the Fish god among the Pandyan-Tamils. Ama, Uma, Ammon, Amon, and etc. seems to either refer to Mal's consort.


This goddess Amon is most ancient among the Proto-Saharans.This goddess has many names including Athene or Neith, daughter of Poseidon god of the Sea (again reference to the great Fish-man); and Demeter, the mare headed patroness.


The Mother goddess Amma/Amon of Libya had her cult center at the Oasis of Siwa. In ancient Egypt Amon was depicted as a ram with spheres. The god Amon was taken to Egypt during the New Kingdom.


The Proto-Saharans early used the oxen with sun disc between the horns as the symbol of their God, long before the Egyptians worshipped Hathor. This god represented Amon/Amma of the Dravidians, Egyptians and Manding speaking people.


Engravings in the Sahara, dating back to Neolithic times show the solar disk with "uraei", which was associated with the worship of Ra/Re in Egypt, when worn by the ram it represented Amon of Thebes. There are depictions of this god from the Saharan sites such as Bou Alam and Zenoga. Archaeologists believe that these engravings date back to 4000 BC. This use of a ram god, with different names among the various groups indicate that the Proto-Saharans worshipped the same religion.For example among the Dogon of West Africa, the god Amma is a ram. In Yoruba Amon, means concealed the same as in Egyptian."


This worship of the ram may have resulted from the important part goat/sheep played in the Sahara as a source of food when the Sahara increasingly became more arid.


It is interesting to note that Siwa (> Siva?), was recognized as the cult center of Amon/Amma, because in the Siwa depression archaeologists have found numerous conical and pyramidal sand encrusted hills that resemble the monuments of ancient Egypt, including a sphinx which resembles a gigantic ram. Although most scholars believe these monuments in the Siwa and Farafra Oasis are natural erosional formations called yardangs, they may really be the remains of monuments built by the Proto-Saharans now encrusted with sand harden by the wind.


The mother goddess was either identified as Amon or Athene. Amon or Amen of the Egyptians was primarily a Theban god whose shrine was rebuilt around 2500 BC, when the Theban Kings defeated their northern foes. Amon became an important god in Egypt beginning with the 12th Dynasty . The priests of Amon, called their god "the King of Gods". The Egyptians recognized Amon as a primeval god. Amon is identified with the ithyphalli god Men( Maa ?)


Amon was recognized as an unseen god, because he could travel. He was also seen as an imperial god. Sesostris I, is credited with building the Temple of Amon at Karnak, near Thebes. Sesostris I, is also credited with conquering the whole sea coast of India, beyond the Ganges to the Eastern Ocean, he also conquered Europe as far as Thrace.


It is clear that Amon or Amen, was the ancient god of the Kushites/Proto-Saharans because Ammenemes I or Ameny I of the 11th Dynasty was from the southern state of Ta-Seti, the first Nome (city/state) of Egypt. Ammenemes means "Amon is in front".


Sesostris I (Thutmose I), probably helped establish Amon worship in Europe and Asia , because as he expanded his Empire he left colonies in all the lands he conquered. Sesostrasen Osiritasen of the 12th Dynasty, is suppose to have established colonies along the Danube river and the Black Sea. Strabo (Bk.3), said that Sesostris I, is suppose to have conquered Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Iberia and Colchis.


Before the Egyptians conquered Greece the worship of Amon had already been established in the region. It was the Garamante Manding speaking tribe who took Amon worship to Greece. In Appollonius Rhodius iv.1310, we discover that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Tritonis in Libya. Plato, identified Athene of Athens with the Libyan god Neith. Athene was worshipped by the Manding and other Western Saharans including the Linear A people of Minoan Crete. Athene is always associated with the god Amon. Moreover the Manding concept of N'ama as a dynamic spirit among the other Mande tribes point to an earlier worship of Amon, before the Mande accepted Islam. The Bambara call their ancestral god Gnia or Nia, this has affinity to the Greek term for the Libyan god called Neith. It is interesting to note that in the Linear A inscriptions we find mention of the goddess Nia= Neith. Moreover, some South Indian worship Amma = Amon. The priest of this cult are called Chom or Khonrini, the Greeks called them Gymnosophists. This Chom, of the Dravidians has affinity to Khon, the leading Kushite god.


The goddess Neith or Athene was known by many names. Some names related to Athene include Anaitis, Nanaia > Tanit of the Phoenicians; Nama in Albania; and the Sumero-Dravidian Ninni-Istar "the wild cow".


The Proto-Dravidians and Sumerians had common religions. For example in the Sumer pantheon the emblem for Inanna, was the date palm, while Ninsun, Dumuzi, Anu and Ishkur were associated with bulls. The Dravidian equivalent to Anu, or bull worship was Anu-Rupa or Siva. The name of this clan in India was called Anu. Many of these Dravidians were also established in Armenia.


In India we find the "men with horns". This term was given to Dravidian dignitaries who had crowns made of animal horns. This type of horned figure appear on many Harappan seals, as do serpents. The wearing of animal horns on crowns may date back to the time of Sesostris, because many Egyptian headdresses included horns.


In ancient Sumer, the goddess of the marriage rites was Ur. The goddess Ur, has analogies to the Dravidian cult of the goddess Paravati, in Siva temples.


The Sumerian god Dumuzi, may be a great ancestor of the Tamil. Prof. Muttarayan has suggested that the word Tamil, may be an evolute of Dumuzi, the name for the Sumerian moon-god. Originally Tammuz/Damuzi was supposedly a king of Uruk. According to Sumerian tradition Dumuzi lived in the neither world.

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C. A. Winters

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