posted
The idea of Middle East Africans carrying R1b into Europe is not so confusing when you study the history of the Niger-Congo speaking Kushites. The ancestors of the Kushites belonged to the Ounanian Culture (here). The Ounanians were hunter-gatherers that used bow and arrows and herded cattle, they founded Nabta Playa.
The IAM people [Early Neolithic Moroccans] (Fergel et al, 2017), were nothing more than hunter-gatherer Kushites that had originally belonged to the Ounanian Culture (Winters, 2012, 2017b). The Ounanians, like their Kushite descendants were great archers and based their civilization on hunting using the bow, and limited cattle domestication find out more at this web page .
In the Eastern Sahara many individual types of tanged and shouldered arrowheads occur on early Holocene prehistoric sites along with Green Saharan/Wavy-line pottery (Drake et al ,2010; Vernet et al, 2007) . .
.
'Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic' wavy-line, dotted wavy line and walking-comb pottery was used from Lake Turkana to Nabta Playa, in Tibestim , Mauritania, on into in the Hoggar, in Niger. This pottery evolved into the Beaker Bell ceramics.
The Ounanian culture was not isolated in Africa. It was spread into the Levant. As a result, we have in the archaeological literature the name Ounan-Harif point. This name was proposed for the tanged points at Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba .
Harifian is a specialized regional cultural development of the Epipalaeolithic of the Negev Desert. Harifian has close connections with the late Mesolithic cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Deserts of Egypt, whose tool assemblage resembles that of the Harifian.
The tangled Ounanian points are also found at Foum Arguin . These points were used from Oued Draa, in southern Morocco, to the Banc d’Arguin and from the Atlantic shore to the lowlands of northwestern Sahara in Mauritania . We now have DNA from Ounanian sites in Morocco.
All the burials in Ifri n’Amr o’Moussa site IAM1-IAM7 , are devoid of any artifacts, except for an original funeral ritual, which consists of placing a millstone on the skull (5) . These burials were dated from 4,850 to 5,250 BCE, they carried U6, M1, T2, X and K (Fregel et al, 2017). This suggest that Africans were already carrying this mtDNA.
The spread of the Ounanians to Harif in the Levant explains the presence of these Kushite clades in the Levant and Anatolia. It also explains how the Bell Beaker/Kushites took their pottery and cattle from Anatolia into the Steppes on into Iberia, where they joined hunter-gatherer Kushites who had settled Iberia several millennia before them.
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posted
So there's 100 years of research that places the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC but no books
quote one paragraph from a research article that says the origin of Iberian culture is Africa from 44k BC
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So there's 100 years of research that places the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC but no books
quote one paragraph from a research article that says the origin of Iberian culture is Africa from 44k BC
A GENETIC CHRONOLOGY OF AFRICAN Y-CHROMOSOMES R-V88 AND R-M269 IN AFRICA AND EURASIA
quote:
There were numerous out of Africa exits into Iberia. The African migrants introduced into Europe, the Aurignacian, Solutrean, Bell Beaker/Corded ware and Moorish cultures between 44,000 BC and 1492 AD. These Sub-Saharan populations belonged to the Black Variety
posted
So theres 100 years of research articles that place the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC but the only one you could quote was your own article??? Hilarious
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So theres 100 years of research articles that place the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC but the only one you could quote was your own article??? Hilarious
Dr. Lahavary uses the term Mediterranean to refer to the North Africans who spread civilization to Iberia. The term mediterranean is just an euphemisms for negro.As noted by Diop web page
Below are quotes from Lahavary
quote: “The civilizations of the Languedoc (in the South of France), and even the Swiss civilization of Cortaillod, on the shores of the lake of Neuchatel, appear to be the daughters of these ancient Iberic civilizations of African origin The cardial ceramic, which is found in Sicily and of which the decorative designs have long subsisted in Iberia, presents great similarities with the incised ceramic of the upper valley of the Nile as far as the Sudan. The Iberic neolithic civilization has had also close relations with the Tunisian neolithic civilization of Capsian tradition (hence the name ‘ Hispano-Mauritanic * given to the incised Iberic ceramic).”(p.10) Note 7, page 10 associated with this passage:
quote: For the N African influences on the islands of the Mediterranean and on Southern Spain, see also O Serra, Appunti suli’ elements punico a lihico helV onomastica Sarda, Vox Romanica, 19S3, 13 and Sostratos Mediterraneos , Rev de Filol Esp XL, 1956, pp 171- 20 8. For the Semitic influence see also the older, but still valuable work of H Lewy, JDie Semitischen Eremdwbrter in Gnechischen Berlm, 1895
“On the European shores and islands of the western and central Mediterranean, the first neolithic civilization is that of the incised pottery This culture, though also derived from the Near East, and more precisely, according to B Brea, from Syria and S E Anatolia, came to Europe by way of Sicily and Malta after a long stage m N Africa.
This civilization brings to Europe many elements of the predynastic Egyptian civilization of Amrat, and, doubtless, also Hamitic linguistic influences of which many important traces have survived to our day m the Celtic of the British Isles, as well as in Basque .From this type of culture derive, apparently, the civilizations of Windmill Hill in the South of England , of Stentinello in Sicily , ancient Cortaillod in Switzerland, El Garcel in Spain, and of Camp de Chassey in France But the Hispano-Maurussian civilization, on the other hand, according to Prof J M Santa Olalla and Prof 'Stekelis, has its first origins in Palestine where we find its essential characteristics 2000 years earlier “(p.14)
“About 3200-2900, an important series of migrations from North Africa brought African cultures to Iberia with their arts, which explains the relationship between the Indian and Iberic civilizations of this period as they had a common source.” (p.17)
“The excavations of Magara Sauar m the former Spanish zone of Morocco carried out by Prof Martmez Santa Olalla have thrown much light on the relations between the first bronze civilizations of Spain and those of N Africa”(p.18)
“In Italy, recent archaeological research, like the important excavations of Arene Candide, brought to an end since the last war (near the French frontier, not far from San Remo) have considerably increased our knowledge of the civilizations and populations of Northern Italy Comparing these new data with what was already known about the rest of Italy and Its islands, Italian prehistorians have come to thefollowing conclusions of which we give here a very brief summary In Southern Italy and in Sicily, the neolithic civilization of the Matera type arrived in a fully developed form from N Africa, after a stage at Malta.”(p.19) Note p.19,” Bovio Marconi, Inciztom rupestn all 'Addceura {Stciha), Palermo 1954 .A Kuhn The Fehbtlder Europas, Stuttgart, Kohlhammer, 1952.R. Vaufrey, L’art rupestre Ttord-Afrtcam, Mem Inst Paleontologie humame, 1939 , same, L’age de Part naturahste rupestre du Levant espagnol, L’Anthr vol 31, I /a, 1947. — The rock art recently discovered in Sicily, that of Spam, particularly of the grotto of Parpallo, and Saharan rock art are closely related, as also the rock art of Tanganyika [Tanzania].”
The late neolithic of Arene Candide^ which we may consider as Ibero-Maurussian in origin, is in the line of the north African neolithic of Egyptian predynastic inspiration, though more recent by over fifteen centuries These various civilizations were introduced into Italy by successive waves of immigrants, but these belonged, notwithstanding their relative diversity, to the same general ' Mediterranean " type. It is therefore not surprising that the ancient Italian toponymy of these populations, which has been transmitted by the classical authors, presents so striking a likeness to the ancient toponymy of western Asia, Iberia, the south of France, North Africa and last but not least, to that of Dravidian India There is thus, what V. Pisani has described as a Mediterranean toponymic unity^^ but which we do not hesitate to name, more appropriately, a Dravidian- Mediterranean one . The less fertile Sardinia was peopled somewhat later than Malta or Sicily, but likewise from N Africa. (pp.20-21)
“This fundamental unity of the peri Mediterranean civilizations with their extensions towards the west and the Atlantic, or towards the east and the Dravidian countries is evidenced by the funerary monuments, as well as by the pottery The funerary cists of Chamblandes in Western Switzerland are the same as those of Arene Candide The long barrows of Brittany, which are generally pre-megalithic, are similar to the ‘ long-barrows ’ of the British Isles The ringed pottery of Brittany found in the most ancient megalithic monuments is closely related, like the monuments themselves, to the Ibero-Saharian civilization, for circumstance, to that of Los Millares, in the South of Spain “.(pp.22-23)
“In Portugal, after the more negroid mesolithic race of Mugem [related to a similar contemporary type in Brittany (Teviec), also found in neolithic sepultures of Alsatia, of Western Switzerland, and which is similar to the Eurafrican type of upper Egypt of the fifth millenmum] ‘ Mediterraneans ’ settled in the country They belonged to a rather large-headed type, still seen today in parts of central Spain These colonizers brought to Portugal the new stone age cultures”. (pp.39-40)
“In Iberia, the brachycephals — ^who have never occupied more than a small region of the peninsula — ^had settled only after much more numerous contingents of longheads of the Western Mediterranean type'*^ coming from N Africa had spread over most of the country, already before 3500, who had brought with them, in successive migrations, the neolithic civilizations of their African former home .”(p.42)
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
So these obscure Indian writers form the 60s and 70s. Anything less than 50 years old that talks about primary research?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So these obscure Indian writers form the 60s and 70s. Anything less than 50 years old that talks about primary research?
LOL. The research has not changed I cite many recent authors in my paper.
A GENETIC CHRONOLOGY OF AFRICAN Y-CHROMOSOMES R-V88 AND R-M269 IN AFRICA AND EURASIA
quote:
There were numerous out of Africa exits into Iberia. The African migrants introduced into Europe, the Aurignacian, Solutrean, Bell Beaker/Corded ware and Moorish cultures between 44,000 BC and 1492 AD. These Sub-Saharan populations belonged to the Black Variety
posted
just because you list reference that does not mean that and of the authors support that the Iberian cultures from 44k BC in Iberia originate in Africa.
That is a huge block of time "between 44,000 BC and 1492" far too long to be addressed in one article
you say " Given the wide distribution of V88 and M269 in Africa and Neolithic Europe ".... " Recent research on Y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa (Winters, 2016). Gonzalez et al., (2012) found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried M269. "
Clyde this is pure silliness you talk about M269 being wide spread in Africa and then you have a chart showing a very low frequency in Khoisans 2% even lower for Niger-Congo 0.4 and 8.93% in Guinea Bissau a tiny country of less than 2 million people and former Portuguese colony Then look at all that blank space in the M269column
This is ridiculous Clyde your chart here shows that far lower than 1% of Africans are M269 carriers and the group is extremely limited Africa. And there is nothing that proves that is not the result of admixture with Europeans. You have this theory> any haplogroup found in Africa originated in Africa That is simply a belief, a pre-conceieved bias you have
No doubt some Africans have mixed with foreigners just as some Europeans have mixed with Africans. That would be reflected in the DNA. So at best if you find a given haplogroup in Africa that also occurs in Europe you cannot conclude that just based on that the haplogroup originated in Africa. At best you can say the origin is unknown.
However if you look at where the oldest humans remains of people carrying a given haplogroup and in addition the region of highest diversity and then frequencies in a region all of this together is suggestive of origin (but you routinely ignore this, such as the lacking support for a substantial presence of M269 in Africa)
Haplogroup Origin, Ways of Estimating
1) region where the oldest remains of the haplotype were found 2) region of highest diversity 3) region of highest frequency 4) consideration of historical influx of varied peoples into region
This last one 4) takes into account that while a frequency may be high in one region due to isolation a haplogroup may have originated in another region but has been obscured by various migrations of other people into that region. Therefore diversity of the group in a region is also considered.
Even V88 is at low frequency in the vast majority of Africa. The Chad basin, including Cameroon is where it is high.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: just because you list reference that does not mean that and of the authors support that the Iberian cultures from 44k BC in Iberia originate in Africa.
That is a huge block of time "between 44,000 BC and 1492" far too long to be addressed in one article
you say " Given the wide distribution of V88 and M269 in Africa and Neolithic Europe ".... " Recent research on Y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa (Winters, 2016). Gonzalez et al., (2012) found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried M269. "
Clyde this is pure silliness you talk about M269 being wide spread in Africa and then you have a chart showing a very low frequency in Khoisans 2% even lower for Niger-Congo 0.4 and 8.93% in Guinea Bissau a tiny country of less than 2 million people and former Portuguese colony Then look at all that blank space in the M269column
This is ridiculous Clyde your chart here shows that far lower than 1% of Africans are M269 carriers and the group is extremely limited Africa. And there is nothing that proves that is not the result of admixture with Europeans. You have this theory> any haplogroup found in Africa originated in Africa That is simply a belief, a pre-conceieved bias you have
No doubt some Africans have mixed with foreigners just as some Europeans have mixed with Africans. That would be reflected in the DNA. So at best if you find a given haplogroup in Africa that also occurs in Europe you cannot conclude that just based on that the haplogroup originated in Africa. At best you can say the origin is unknown.
However if you look at where the oldest humans remains of people carrying a given haplogroup and in addition the region of highest diversity and then frequencies in a region all of this together is suggestive of origin (but you routinely ignore this, such as the lacking support for a substantial presence of M269 in Africa)
Haplogroup Origin, Ways of Estimating
1) region where the oldest remains of the haplotype were found 2) region of highest diversity 3) region of highest frequency 4) consideration of historical influx of varied peoples into region
This last one 4) takes into account that while a frequency may be high in one region due to isolation a haplogroup may have originated in another region but has been obscured by various migrations of other people into that region. Therefore diversity of the group in a region is also considered.
Even V88 is at low frequency in the vast majority of Africa. The Chad basin, including Cameroon is where it is high.
Your arguments are lame.
1) region where the oldest remains of the haplotype were found
This dosen't tell us anything about the origin of the individual. You can only find this out by looking at the cultural artifacts that describe the population.
2) region of highest diversity
The 'greatest diversity' argument fails because it only indicates the present population --not the population that may have originally lived in the areas that was replaced by recent emigrants. For example, the majority of Americans speak English, and the English speakers are the dominant population, but the Native Americans are the indigenous people of America--not the English.
3) region of highest frequency
Same answer as number 2.
4) consideration of historical influx of varied peoples into region
This finding depends on archaeology and historical records. These records make it clear that white Europeans do not appear in history until after 1400BC.
In many of the aDNA studies researchers are using 3-10 samples to describe an entire population.Often it is only one individual as in the case of Mal'ta man, Naia, and etc. My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.
The fact remains that their is no evidence of Eurasians migrating back to Africa. But abundant evidence for Africans migrating and spreading their DNA in Eurasia.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Your argument is lame. In many of the aDNA studies researchers are using 3-10 samples to describe an entire population.Often it is only one individual as in the case of Mal'ta man, Naia, and etc. My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.
Clyde your chart is not aDNA it's modern.
Plus you exaggerate for your own purposes all the time. Two Grimaldi skeletons are found in the same burial and then you start talking about Grimaldi man being all over Europe. What you leave out is that those two skeletons do not resemble the body proportions of other paleolithic or neolithic remains in Europe
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.
you didn't conduct any DNA testing, you have no samples
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Your argument is lame. In many of the aDNA studies researchers are using 3-10 samples to describe an entire population.Often it is only one individual as in the case of Mal'ta man, Naia, and etc. My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.
Clyde your chart is not aDNA it's modern.
Plus you exaggerate for your own purposes all the time. Two Grimaldi skeletons are found in the same burial and then you start talking about Grimaldi man being all over Europe. What you leave out is that those two skeletons do not resemble the body proportions of other paleolithic or neolithic remains in Europe
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.
you didn't conduct any DNA testing, you have no samples
I didn't have to test anyone. The individuals in my sample were already available and recognized in other studies.
Read the literature. Researchers in population genetics studies usually discuss available samples already on-line.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Your arguments are lame.
1) region where the oldest remains of the haplotype were found
This dosen't tell us anything about the origin of the individual. You can only find this out by looking at the cultural artifacts that describe the population.
2) region of highest diversity
The 'greatest diversity' argument fails because it only indicates the present population --not the population that may have originally lived in the areas that was replaced by recent emigrants. For example, the majority of Americans speak English, and the English speakers are the dominant population, but the Native Americans are the indigenous people of America--not the English.
3) region of highest frequency
Same answer as number 2.
4) consideration of historical influx of varied peoples into region
This finding depends on archaeology and historical records. These records make it clear that white Europeans do not appear in history until after 1400BC.
In many of the aDNA studies researchers are using 3-10 samples to describe an entire population.Often it is only one individual as in the case of Mal'ta man, Naia, and etc. My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.
The fact remains that their is no evidence of Eurasians migrating back to Africa. But abundant evidence for Africans migrating and spreading their DNA in Eurasia. [/QB]
Pure hypocrisy. You just pointed to an article you wrote showing frequencies of V88. You have many artcles using DNA frequencies as argument
So when it's your theory you use DNA frequency in charts to try to support it.
Then when you don't like what the DNA shows you throw up your hands and say the sample is too small and all the standard methods of estimating a haplogroup's origins are useless.
You only do what convenient for you at a given moment. If the DNA supports your theory dogma from the 1960s you parade it and put up a bunch of charts. If the facts don't conform to theory dogma from the 1960s you put your fingers in your ears and say the data's no good. You are very predictable, you are a polemicist Just a moment ago you were promoting the DNA the Kivisild paper and here Guinea-Bissau
Your theory is that any haplogroup is found in Africa it originated there. That is simply a belief, it is in the realm of religion or political dogma
That is not to say that a given haplogroup did not originate in Africa but there has to be some up to date methodology using genetic data to help determine that, not just a belief system you have from the 60s or based on legend if not simply stories you made up (M.U.S. )
Then when you think some genetic data supports your pre-conceived position all of the sudden you love it and put up a bunch of charts showing it, come on Clyde
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Your arguments are lame.
1) region where the oldest remains of the haplotype were found
This dosen't tell us anything about the origin of the individual. You can only find this out by looking at the cultural artifacts that describe the population.
2) region of highest diversity
The 'greatest diversity' argument fails because it only indicates the present population --not the population that may have originally lived in the areas that was replaced by recent emigrants. For example, the majority of Americans speak English, and the English speakers are the dominant population, but the Native Americans are the indigenous people of America--not the English.
3) region of highest frequency
Same answer as number 2.
4) consideration of historical influx of varied peoples into region
This finding depends on archaeology and historical records. These records make it clear that white Europeans do not appear in history until after 1400BC.
In many of the aDNA studies researchers are using 3-10 samples to describe an entire population.Often it is only one individual as in the case of Mal'ta man, Naia, and etc. My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.
The fact remains that their is no evidence of Eurasians migrating back to Africa. But abundant evidence for Africans migrating and spreading their DNA in Eurasia.
Pure hypocrisy. You just pointed to an article you wrote showing frequencies of V88. You have many artcles using DNA frequencies as argument
So when it's your theory you use DNA frequency in charts to try to support it.
Then when you don't like what the DNA shows you throw up your hands and say the sample is too small and here all the standard methods of estimating a haplogroup's origins are useless.
You only do what convenient for you at a given moment. If the DNA supports your theory dogma from the 1960s you parade it and put up a bunch of charts. If the facts don't conform to theory dogma from the 1960s you put your fingers in your ears and say the data's no good. You are very predictable, you are a polemicist Just a moment ago you were promoting the DNA the Kivisild paper and here Guinea-Bissau
Your theory is that any haplogroup is found in Africa it originated there. That is simply a belief, it is in the realm of religion or political dogma
That is not to say that a given haplogroup did not originate in Africa but there has to be some up to date methodology using genetic data to help determine that, not just a belief system from back in the day or based on legend if not made up simply stories you made up (M.U.S. )
Then when you think some genetic data supports your pre-conceived position all of the sudden you love it and put up a bunch of charts recording it, come on Clyde [/QB]
Don't compare my papers to the Haber et al and etc., articles I support my work with archaeological and linguistic studies. These authors make a statistical model that can not be verifed, so the findings can not be conclusive--since they are hypothetical.
You said, "Your theory is that any haplogroup is found in Africa it originated there. That is simply a belief, it is in the realm of religion or political dogma", this false I support my research with collateral evidence; namely the haplogroup is not only found in Africa, the culture practiced by the individual carrying the clade originated in Africa, and is older than the sister clade and culture found in Eurasia.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia
when did this happen?
I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.
So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe. So who was already there in Europe before they got there?
And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.
Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.
THen what defines being a Kushite?
You mean, you don’t know? Did they not teach this at the Africana classes?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia
when did this happen?
I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.
So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe. So who was already there in Europe before they got there?
And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.
Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.
you're not keeping up with professor Winters >>
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
there is 100 years of archaeological research that places the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC to 1492 AD. 1492 was when the Moors were forced from Iberia.
It’s a different interpretation. I see nothing wrong here.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Here we see the same pattern as with L3c, which was changed to U6. They changed the narrative of the historical context to make it fit their own agenda.
The simple reason why a back migration was suggested comes from a 2002 paper, where they proposed a phylogenetic inferences based on the lack of certain chromosomes in African populations. This was before DE etc. was found in Africa. Studies today still use this old phylogenetic inferences path and totally skipped the newer / later evidence, as the findings of DE* in Africa.
quote: An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.
Group IX Chromosomes in Sub-Saharan Africa: An Asian Origin?
How can the presence of Group IX chromosomes at considerable frequency in Cameroon be explained? A priori, we can envision three possibilities. First, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon are due to rather recent male gene flow from Europe or the Near East. Second, the entire M9 superclade (haplogroups VII–X) has an African origin. Third, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon represent a footprint of a male back migration from Asia to Africa. The first scenario seems to be very unlikely, because only derived haplotypes, carrying the M269 or M17/SRY10831 mutations, have been detected in western Eurasia. The second hypothesis, an African origin of the M9 superclade that includes haplotype 117, would imply a subsequent impressive extinction of derivative lineages in sub-Saharan Africa, since no other haplotypes carrying the M9 mutation (haplogroups VII–X) have been observed in this region (the only exception being represented by a few haplotype 109 chromosomes found in the Fulbe from Cameroon). The last scenario, that of a back migration from Asia to Africa, currently appears to be by far the most plausible. This is because most of the M9 haplotypes (the majority of group VII and VIII lineages, as well as some group IX and X lineages reported by Underhill et al. [2000]) have been observed only in Asia. Moreover, this possibility appears to be further supported by the recent finding of the UTY2+/M173− intermediate haplotype (Karafet et al. 2001) in central and northeastern Asia (the UTY2 marker in the study by Karafet et al. [2001] corresponds to M207 in the present study).
—Fulvio Crucian et al. (2002) A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
However in the 2011 paper they found chromosomes to be matching, which lacked presence in prior studies, thus the phylogenetic needed a reevaluation. And the painful conclusions can be read, in more recent papers published by Fulvio Crucian et al.
quote: In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.
—Fulvio Cruciani et al. A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.
I thought being a Kushite is defined by the kingdom of Kush
So what defines being a Kushite?
Kushitic people lived before there was a rise of a Kushite Kingdom. It’s the Kushitic people who made the Kushite kingdom.
Did you not pay attention in Africana classes? Were you buzzing yourself with catching flies?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.
I thought being a Kushite is defined by the kingdom of Kush
So what defines being a Kushite?
Kushitic people lived before there was a rise of a Kushite Kingdom. It’s the Kushitic people who made the Kushite kingdom.
Did you not pay attention in Africana classes? Were you buzzing yourself with catching flies?
So what defines being a Kushite? People who speak Cushitic languages? Having certain genes?
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.
I thought being a Kushite is defined by the kingdom of Kush
So what defines being a Kushite?
Kushitic people lived before there was a rise of a Kushite Kingdom. It’s the Kushitic people who made the Kushite kingdom.
Did you not pay attention in Africana classes? Were you buzzing yourself with catching flies?
So what defines being a Kushite? People who speak Cushitic languages? Having certain genes?
What defines being a Kushite are two things: 1) they are descendants of the Ounanian Culture and; 2) they called themselves Kushite.
The kushites lived in the Sudan, North Africa and Levant/Anatolia.
Around 800 BC, Homer mentions the Aethiopians, or Kushites, in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Homer said that the Kushites were “the most just of men, the favorites of the Gods”.
To the Greco-Romans there were two Kush empires, one in Africa and the other in Asia. Homer alluded to the two Kushite empires when he wrote in the Odyssey i.23: “a race divided, whom the sloping rays; the rising and the setting sun surveys”. In the Iliad. i.423, Homer wrote that Zeus went to Kush to banquet with the blameless Ethiopians.
In 64 BC, the Greek geographer and historian Strabo stated in Chapter 1 of Geography that there were two Kush empires - one in Asia and another in Africa. In addition to Kush in Nubia and Upper Egypt, some Greco-Roman authors considered their presence in southern Phoenicia up to Mount Amanus in Syria.
The Neolithic process in North Africa was done by Africans, who took the Agro-Pastoral cultures to the Levant and Europe (4).
Niger-Congo Speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake et al make it clear there was considerable human activity in the Sahara before it became a desert[1]. Drake et al [1] provides evidence that the original settlers of this wet Sahara, who used aquatic tool kits, were Nilo-Saharan (NS) speakers. The authors also recognized another Saharan culture that played a role in the peopling of the desert. This population hunted animals with the bow-and –arrow; they are associated with the Ounanian culture. The Ounanian culture existed 12kya [3].
The IAM people [Early Neolithic Moroccans] (5), were nothing more than hunter-gatherer Kushites that had originally belonged to the Ounanian Culture (3-4). The Ounanians, like their Kushite descendants were great archers and based their civilization on hunting using the bow, and limited cattle domestication (3-4).
The Ounanian culture was first described by Breuil in 1930 at Ounan to the south of Taodeni in northern Mali. Ounanian Points are suggested to be the hallmark of the some Epipaleolithic industries in the central Sahara, the Sahel and northern Sudan, and dated to the early Holocene.
The Ounanian culture is associated with sites in central Egypt, Algeria, Mali, Mauretania and Niger [3-4]. The Ounanian tradition is probably associated with the Niger-Congo phyla. This would explain the close relationship between the Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan languages[3].
The original homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers was probably situated in the Saharan Highlands during the Ounanian period. From here NC populations migrated into the Fezzan, Nile Valley and Sudan as their original homeland became more and more arid.
In the Eastern Sahara many individual types of tanged and shouldered arrowheads occur on early Holocene prehistoric sites along with Green Saharan/Wavy-line pottery (1-2) . 'Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic' wavy-line, dotted wavy line and walking-comb pottery was used from Lake Turkana to Nabta Playa, in Tibestim , Mauritania, on into in the Hoggar, in Niger. This pottery evolved into the Beaker Bell ceramics.
Wavy-line pottery
The Ounanian culture was not isolated in Africa. It was spread into the Levant. As a result, we have in the archaeological literature the name Ounan-Harif point. This name was proposed for the tanged points at Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba .
Tanged Point
Harifian is a specialized regional cultural development of the Epipalaeolithic of the Negev Desert. Harifian has close connections with the late Mesolithic cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Deserts of Egypt, whose tool assemblage resembles that of the Harifian.
The tangled Ounanian points are also found at Foum Arguin . These points were used from Oued Draa, in southern Morocco, to the Banc d’Arguin and from the Atlantic shore to the lowlands of northwestern Sahara in Mauritania . We now have DNA from Ounanian sites in Morocco.
All the burials in Ifri n’Amr o’Moussa site IAM1-IAM7 , are devoid of any artifacts, except for an original funeral ritual, which consists of placing a millstone on the skull (5) . These burials were dated from 4,850 to 5,250 BCE, they carried U6, M1, T2, X and K (5). This suggest that Africans were already carrying this mtDNA. The spread of the Ounanians to Harif in the Levant explains the presence of these Kushite clades in the Levant and Anatolia.
In summary, the Niger-Congo speakers or Kushites formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. The ancestors of the Kushites were the Ounanians who spread the Ounan-Harfian toolkit, pottery and arrows from throughout North Africa, into Iberia and the Levant. Originally hunter-gatherers the Proto-Niger- Congo people developed an agro-pastoral economy which included the cultivation of millet, and domestication of cattle (and sheep). It was these Kushites who introduced mtDNA U6, M1, T2, X and K; and Y-Chromosome R1b into Eurasian from their African homeland in the Sahel-Sahara.
Eurocentrists attempt to limit the extent of the Kushite empire. The Weni inscription makes it clear that many states were inhabited by the ḫ3st, or Kushites.
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. The map above makes it appear that only Irthet was Kush, but the Weni inscriptions includes Wawat, Yam and Temeh as being inhabited by Kushite = ḫ3st.
quote:
The inscription of Weni reads:
“His majesty made war on the Asiatic Sand-dwellers and his majesty made an army of many ten thousands; in the entire South, southward to Elephantine, and northward to Aphroditopolis [Busiris]; in the Northland on both sides entire in the [stronghold], and in the midst of the [strongholds], among the Irthet khas [Kusites], the Mazoi khas [Kushites], the Yam khas [Kushites], among the Wawat Khas [Kushites], among the Kau khas [Kushites], and in the land of Temeh.”
In the Weni inscription we can clearly see that Kushites were living in Upper and Lower Egypt. The final comment in the Weni inscription made it clear that ḫ3st (khas=Kushites) were also “in the land of Temeh”. On this map, Temeh is situated to the south of Irthet, but in Egyptian Temeh, meant Lower Egypt.
The Egyptians made it clear that LOWER EGYPT was called : TAMEH , and UPPER EGYPT : TA SHEMA .
Because the ḫ3st (khas = Kushites), were living in Lower Egypt, when the Kings of Heqa ḫ3st took control of Egypt during the Hyksos period they were returning to the lands of their ancestors as Heqa ḫ3st (khas= Kushites) (Kings of the Kushites).
The khas [Kushites ] belonged to the C-Group people and lived in Upper and Lower Egypt between 3700-1300 BC and were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups: the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South.
Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader as “Hati Tehenu”. The name Hati corresponds to the name Hatti - a tribe in Anatolia. However, the Hatti people often referred to themselves as Kashkas. Kashkas corresponds to ḫ3st (Khas), and the Hyksos were identifying their ethnic origins when they called themselves ḫ3st . References: 1. Nick A. Drake, Roger M. Blench, Simon J. Armitage, Charlie S. Bristow, and Kevin H. White. (2010). Ancient watercourses and biogeography of the Sahara explain the peopling of the desert PNAS 2011 108 (2) 458-462; published ahead of print December 27,2010, doi:10.1073/pnas.1012231108 2. Vernet R, Ott M, Tarrou L, Gallin A, Géoris-Creuseveau J. (2007) Excavation of the mound of FA 10 (Banc d'Arguin) and its contribution to the knowledge of the culture paleolithical Foum Arguin, northwestern Sahara (Translated from French) J Afr Archaeol 5:17–46. 3. Winters C. (2012). Origin of the Niger-Congo Speakers. WebmedCentral GENETICS 2012;3(3). https://www.webmedcentral.com/article_view/3149 4. Winters, C. (2017)A GENETIC CHRONOLOGY OF AFRICAN Y-CHROMOSOMES R-V88 AND R-M269 IN AFRICA AND EURASIA,http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf 5. Fregel R, et al (2017). Neolithization of North Africa involved the migration of people from both the Levant and Europe. bioRxiv 191569; doi: https://doi.org
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia, because the Dravidians originally belonged to the C-Group of Nubia. Africans also carry haplogroup R1a. Research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.
Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al., of R1 in Guinea-Bissau. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans . Moreover, Guinea-Bissau was a major area of origin of many slaves during the Atlantic Slave Trade, and, as a result the South American slaves probably already came to the New World carrying R-M269. [IMG]http://olmec98.net/carr The R1 haplogroup probably originated in Africa. The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia.
Abu-Amero et al (20009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of Ry-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa, especially Cameroon (Coia et al, 2005). Coia et al (2005) has revealed that no maternal Eurasian lineages have been found among Sub-Saharan Africans with a R1- M173 profile. Haplogroup V88 has the greatest frequency in Africa. It is predominately carried by Chadic speakers, ranges between 2-60% among Central African Niger-Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
The phylogenetically deep haplogroup R1b is mainly found in West Africa and the Sahel, where the frequency ranges between 85-100% among Niger Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). The paternal record of M173 on the African continent illustrates a greater distribution of this y-chromosome among varied African populations than, in Asia.
The greatest diversity of R1b in Africa is highly suggestive of an Africa origin for this male lineage. Archaeological (Lal, 1963), genetic (Winters, 2008;2010a), placenames (Balakrishnan, 2005) and linguistic data group (Aravanan,1979,1980; Upadhyaya, 1976,1979; Winters 1985a,1985b, 1989) linking Africans and Dravidian support the recent demic diffusion of SubSaharan Africans and gene flow from Africa to Eurasia. An early colonization of Eurasia 4kya by Sub-Saharan Africans and Dravidian carriers of R1-M173 is the best scenario to explain the high frequency and widespread geographical distribution of this y-chromosome on the African continent (Winters, 2010c). Given the greatest diversity of R1- M173, this is the most parsimonious model explaining the frequency of R-M173 in Africa. In conclusion, the R haplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).
In Africa we find R-M269 and V88. Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 there is no evidence of archaeological evidence of a back migration or haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Sahara into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia. The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.
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In India the Dravidian people carry the R1a haplogroup The Dravidian people of India originally lived in Middle Africa and belonged to the Proto-Saharan Civilization. The Proto-Saharan civilization was situated in the Proto-Sahara, which includes Cameroon. .
The frequency of R1 in Chad-Cameroon, and other parts of Africa is just as high as in Europe;the frequency of R1 in Africa ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa, especially Cameroon . In Fact all of Western Europe can fit into the area where we find R1b and R1a in Africa.
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. Chad-Cameroon is not the only place R1 is found. Interestingly, Chad-Cameroon is larger than the area of Western Europe.
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Moreover, the frequency of R1 in a particular region does not indicate place of origin.
The Egyptians made it clear that LOWER EGYPT was called : TAMEH , and UPPER EGYPT : TA SHEMA . [/b]
Because the ḫ3st (khas = Kushites), were living in Lower Egypt, when the Kings of Heqa ḫ3st took control of Egypt during the Hyksos period they were returning to the lands of their ancestors as Heqa ḫ3st (khas= Kushites) (Kings of the Kushites).
The khas [Kushites ] belonged to the C-Group people and lived in Upper and Lower Egypt between 3700-1300 BC and were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups: the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South.
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Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader as “Hati Tehenu”. The name Hati corresponds to the name Hatti - a tribe in Anatolia. However, the Hatti people often referred to themselves as Kashkas. Kashkas corresponds to ḫ3st (Khas), and the Hyksos were identifying their ethnic origins when they called themselves ḫ3st
Hattians lived in Anatolia. They worshipped Kasku and Kusuh. They were especially prominent in the Pontic mountains. Their sister nation in the Halys Basin were the Kaska tribes. The Kaska and Hattians share the same names for gods, along with personal and place names (1). The Kaska had a strong empire which was never defeated by the Hittites.
The Hatti controlled the city state of Kussara. Kussara was situated in southern Anatolia.
The tribal names: Kings of Kish for the Sumerians, Kashka and Khas for the hyksos show that the Anatolians were Kushites.
In conclusion, the R macrohaplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I assume Ish Gebor agrees with Clyde that the the Hyksos were Kushites.
Your problem is that you always assume things. No wonder, for someone how is catching flies.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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