posted
^What I meant to say is that those who were duped by DNA Tribes' Pharaonic MLI score tables refused to address the parts of that paper that specified the when and wheres of contact between SSA L2 carriers and different parts of Africa. You give them the quotes and they pretend to not see it or understand what it means.
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Anyway do you have info on the maternal DNA on Amarna mummies?
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posted
HA!HA! HA! HA! I Did NOT want to show him up. SMH. He just can't help himself.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: ^Oh, okay.
Anyway do you have info on the maternal DNA on Amarna mummies?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: HA!HA! HA! HA! I Did NOT want to show him up. SMH. He just can't help himself.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: ^Oh, okay.
Anyway do you have info on the maternal DNA on Amarna mummies?
What is so funny about that? Judging by his comments on JK2888's paternal hg, Ish thinks haplogroups are informative of recent ancestry. If you think that question is funny, you apparently do, too.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What is so funny about that?
For the record, no one is denying that L2 lineages were in Egypt or in the Amarna family. I have to clarify this now because xyyman apparently does not know how to interpret the L2 paper correctly (he thinks the presence of L2 in the Amarna family would invalidate what I said), so he's bungling the point of contention.
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Since we are on the topic of L2 and it POSSIBLY being in Egypt, this is what this post was addressing in that other thread.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: I still believe the Upper Egyptians will have "added" SSA admixture at least. *Shrugs*
Sue me...
Again, I do not know why you were projecting that I was in the same camp as Xxyman or that I believed Egypt was a melting pot of different Africans when we both had conversations on L2 on another site[plus I sent you a PM].
You already know that I am a very open minded person and not prideful[said many times I am here to learn], and you could have just corrected me instead of the certain amount of projections.
I admit the "sue me" part could have been a bit cocky, but again that post was in relation to L2 being in Levant and so Egypt[Upper Egypt] POSSIBLY having some SSA influence via the Green Sahara.
NOT that Ancient Egyptians themselves were of SSA descent. Once again feel free to correct me without putting me in certain groups. Thats what we are all here for.
PS-When I mean "SSA admixture" I DO NOT mean "West/Central African", but Nilo-Saharan East African. Before the Abusir/Natufian papers I always assumed the Upper Egyptians at least had significant East African Nilo-Saharan genetic influence, heck we seen Nilo-Saharan influence AE culture. You can even ask Truthcentric and he'll vouch for me with the past discussions we had. But after this Abusir study I am not sure this may be the case.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: HA!HA! HA! HA! I Did NOT want to show him up. SMH. He just can't help himself.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: ^Oh, okay.
Anyway do you have info on the maternal DNA on Amarna mummies?
What is so funny about that? Judging by his comments on JK2888's paternal hg, Ish thinks haplogroups are informative of recent ancestry. If you think that question is funny, you apparently do, too.
I actually think the paternal hg's for JK2888 are "relative old" in the region (about 15 to 10 Kya, but yeah that is indeed close to 7Kya).
The problem we have here is that we lack a lot of data from Africa. So a proper reconstruction cannot be done yet.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: @Swenet
Since we are on the topic of L2 and it POSSIBLY being in Egypt, this is what this post was addressing in that other thread.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: I still believe the Upper Egyptians will have "added" SSA admixture at least. *Shrugs*
Sue me...
Again, I do not know why you were projecting that I was in the same camp as Xxyman or that I believed Egypt was a melting pot of different Africans when we both had conversations on L2 on another site[plus I sent you a PM].
You already know that I am a very open minded person and not prideful[said many times I am here to learn], and you could have just corrected me instead of the certain amount of projections.
I admit the "sue me" part could have been a bit cocky, but again that post was in relation to L2 being in Levant and so Egypt[Upper Egypt] POSSIBLY having some SSA influence via the Green Sahara.
NOT that Ancient Egyptians themselves were of SSA descent. Once again feel free to correct me without putting me in certain groups. Thats what we are all here for.
PS-When I mean "SSA admixture" I DO NOT mean "West/Central African", but Nilo-Saharan East African. Before the Abusir/Natufian papers I always assumed the Upper Egyptians at least had significant East African Nilo-Saharan genetic influence, heck we seen Nilo-Saharan influence AE culture. You can even ask Truthcentric and he'll vouch for me with the past discussions we had. But after this Abusir study I am not sure this may be the case.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: HA!HA! HA! HA! I Did NOT want to show him up. SMH. He just can't help himself.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: ^Oh, okay.
Anyway do you have info on the maternal DNA on Amarna mummies?
What is so funny about that? Judging by his comments on JK2888's paternal hg, Ish thinks haplogroups are informative of recent ancestry. If you think that question is funny, you apparently do, too.
I actually think the paternal hg's for JK2888 are "relative old" in the region (about 15 to 10 Kya, but yeah that is indeed close to 7Kya).
The problem we have here is that we lack a lot of data from Africa. So a proper reconstruction cannot be done yet.
Of course a lot of data is missing.
Here are the only scenarios possible at this point:
1) AE were derived largely from Non Africans migrating back into North Africa. Therefore the Abusir remains becomes the "proof" that the AE were non African.
2) AE primarily derived from some "proto Eurasian" population that has not yet been identified but descended from original populations involved in OOA with MTDNA and Paternal DNA UNASSOCIATED with L lineages and E lineages (the only confirmed and currently identified African lineages). IE. A ghost population often mislabeled as Eurasian back migrants.
3) AE primarily derived from African populations carrying L MTDNA lineages and E paternal lineages (ie. the only African categorized DNA lineages) but subsequently mixed with Non African populations over time.
4) Some combination of all the above.
Right now the latest paper is leaning towards scenario 1.
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quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: [QB] @Swenet
Since we are on the topic of L2 and it POSSIBLY being in Egypt, this is what this post was addressing in that other thread.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: I still believe the Upper Egyptians will have "added" SSA admixture at least. *Shrugs*
Sue me...
You made that same comment when I was debating Bass. Neither of us was denying SSA ancestry in Egypt, but you still made that statement to contrast it with what I said. Since I don't deny a presence of SSA ancestry in Upper Egypt, why do you feel the need to point out that you still believe it was present in Upper Egypt? You know what you're doing. Just say what you really mean. Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: [QB] @Swenet
Since we are on the topic of L2 and it POSSIBLY being in Egypt, this is what this post was addressing in that other thread.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: I still believe the Upper Egyptians will have "added" SSA admixture at least. *Shrugs*
Sue me...
You made that same comment when I was debating Bass. Neither of us was denying SSA ancestry in Egypt, but you still made that statement to contrast it with what I said. Since I don't deny a presence of SSA ancestry in Upper Egypt, why do you feel the need to point out that you still believe it was present in Upper Egypt? You know what you're doing. Just say what you really mean.
I'm still confused. If you believe that there was a presence of SSA in Upper Egypt then why in the post in the main thread did say that posters like me are M.I.A when actual data are posted? Or that we make bold claims. Or that posters like me ignore the data? In the other thread you posted this link. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009626;p=18#000891
^^I admit I did NOT see that data before. Which is why I said if you want to correct me than do so without some of the projections.
I don't remember contrasting anything with what you said. Second I can't say what I "really mean" because I am still confused. And no I do NOT know "what I am doing."
All I'm trying to do is trying to get a clear understanding.
PS- The reason why I pointed it out was because people around the net believe that there was almost zero SSA influence in Upper Egypt[don't blame them with this recent study], but based on L2, the Green Sahara and possible Nilo-Saharan/Nilotic influence there could have been added SSA admixture to the already indigenous Egyptian admixture in Upper Egypt.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: HA!HA! HA! HA! I Did NOT want to show him up. SMH. He just can't help himself.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [qb] ^Oh, okay.
Anyway do you have info on the maternal DNA on Amarna mummies?
What is so funny about that? Judging by his comments on JK2888's paternal hg, Ish thinks haplogroups are informative of recent ancestry. If you think that question is funny, you apparently do, too.
I actually think the paternal hg's for JK2888 are "relative old" in the region (about 15 to 10 Kya, but yeah that is indeed close to 7Kya).
Some ES members think all SNPs are haplogroups and you think haplogroups reflect recent ancestry.
This indicates that you and some others don't have the frame of reference to understand the gravity of the conclusions of that L2 paper. Your rhetorical question (whether I know the Amarna mummies' mtDNAs) speaks parts. It doesn't follow from what I said, but you think it does because you don't even know what is being argued.
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^Out of curiosity, why did you point out that you still think there is SSA ancestry in Upper Egypt? No one in that thread denies that and main ongoing point of contention is how much SSA there was in ancient Egypt.
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Here are the only scenarios possible at this point:
1) AE were derived largely from Non Africans migrating back into North Africa. Therefore the Abusir remains becomes the "proof" that the AE were non African.
2) AE primarily derived from some "proto Eurasian" population that has not yet been identified but descended from original populations involved in OOA with MTDNA and Paternal DNA UNASSOCIATED with L lineages and E lineages (the only confirmed and currently identified African lineages). IE. A ghost population often mislabeled as Eurasian back migrants.
3) AE primarily derived from African populations carrying L MTDNA lineages and E paternal lineages (ie. the only African categorized DNA lineages) but subsequently mixed with Non African populations over time.
4) Some combination of all the above.
Right now the latest paper is leaning towards scenario 1. [/QB]
^ these hypotheticals don't instances where E is not accompanied by L
Berbers for instance, are often a combination of Y DNA E and mtDNA H
Similarly some people in the Balkans although they are E-V13 carriers rather than E-M81 as the berbers are >>>
Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns 2005
E. Bosch1, F. Calafell1, A. Gonza ́lez-Neira1,∗, C. Flaiz1,2, E. Mateu1, H.-G. Scheil3, W. Huckenbeck4, L. Efremovska5, I. Mikerezi6, N. Xirotiris7, C. Grasa8, H. Schmidt2 and D. Comas1,†
Albanians
E3b1-M78 23% (highest Y percentage) (Kosovo 45.6% - Peričic 2005)
High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations Marijana Peričić
Observed high E3b1 frequency in Kosovar Albanians (46%) and Macedonian Romani (30%) represent a focal rather than a clinal phenomenon resulting most likely from genetic drift.
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^Out of curiosity, why did you point out that you still think there is SSA ancestry in Upper Egypt? No one in that thread denies that and main ongoing point of contention is how much SSA there was in ancient Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
PS- The reason why I pointed it out was because people around the net believe that there was almost zero SSA influence in Upper Egypt[don't blame them with this recent study], but based on L2, the Green Sahara and possible Nilo-Saharan/Nilotic influence there could have been added SSA admixture to the already indigenous Egyptian admixture in Upper Egypt.
I understand you may have a curiosity with that post, but that post was mainly addressing the "Anti-Afrocentric" crowd on sites like FBD and others.
Bro, you know how I move. If you feel I said something that had a lot of errors or was beyond stupid then just ask/correct me. I just wanted us to come to an understanding because it seems stuff got mixed up.
PS- As of how much SSA admixture in Upper Egypt I personally guess around 15-22%. Again my guessing. Not based on fact until we have actual data.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Some ES members think all SNPs are haplogroups and you think haplogroups reflect recent ancestry.
This indicates that you and some others don't have the frame of reference to understand the gravity of the conclusions of that L2 paper. Your rhetorical question (whether I know the Amarna mummies' mtDNAs) speaks parts. It doesn't follow from what I said, but you think it does because you don't even know what is being argued.
The question wasn't rhetorical, nor do think haplogroups always reflect recent ancestry. But considering the history from the Sahara-Sahel and specific pastoralist ethnic groups that seems to indicate it in this case.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns 2005
E. Bosch1, F. Calafell1, A. Gonza ́lez-Neira1,∗, C. Flaiz1,2, E. Mateu1, H.-G. Scheil3, W. Huckenbeck4, L. Efremovska5, I. Mikerezi6, N. Xirotiris7, C. Grasa8, H. Schmidt2 and D. Comas1,†
Albanians
E3b1-M78 23% (highest Y percentage) (Kosovo 45.6% - Peričic 2005)
High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations Marijana Peričić
Observed high E3b1 frequency in Kosovar Albanians (46%) and Macedonian Romani (30%) represent a focal rather than a clinal phenomenon resulting most likely from genetic drift.
What would happen to the data if L snippets was found in Albanians? Would that be problematic?
The interesting part is that V13 is barley found in North (east and west) Africa.
quote:
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani et al. (2011)
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Some ES members think all SNPs are haplogroups and you think haplogroups reflect recent ancestry.
This indicates that you and some others don't have the frame of reference to understand the gravity of the conclusions of that L2 paper. Your rhetorical question (whether I know the Amarna mummies' mtDNAs) speaks parts. It doesn't follow from what I said, but you think it does because you don't even know what is being argued.
The question wasn't rhetorical, nor do think haplogroups always reflect recent ancestry. But considering the history from the Sahara-Sahel and specific ethnic groups that seems to indicate it in this case.
I'm not going back and forth with you on this. You expressed amazement that Jk2888 did not cluster with SSA groups, despite belonging to the same macrohaplogroup. Haplogroups don't even work like that because they don't reflect recent ancestry. So it's also pointless to ask me if I know what the Amarna hgs are.
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What amazed me was that they didn't consider these populations despite being pastoralist ethnic groups from the region. They used BAM files to map European populations, but the same was not done for Africa even with little that is known about Africa. For them to use this method is not surprising.
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posted
Blah! Blah! blah! Ish is too nice, so I will ask it. Do YOU Know the mTDNA HG of the Amarnas?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: HA!HA! HA! HA! I Did NOT want to show him up. SMH. He just can't help himself. :rolleyes:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [qb] ^Oh, okay.
Anyway do you have info on the maternal DNA on Amarna mummies?
What is so funny about that? Judging by his comments on JK2888's paternal hg, Ish thinks haplogroups are informative of recent ancestry. If you think that question is funny, you apparently do, too.
I actually think the paternal hg's for JK2888 are "relative old" in the region (about 15 to 10 Kya, but yeah that is indeed close to 7Kya).
Some ES members think all SNPs are haplogroups and you think haplogroups reflect recent ancestry.
This indicates that you and some others don't have the frame of reference to understand the gravity of the conclusions of that L2 paper. Your rhetorical question (whether I know the Amarna mummies' mtDNAs) speaks parts. It doesn't follow from what I said, but you think it does because you don't even know what is being argued.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yes I was alluding to her and also some Natufians with certain features diagnostic of West/Central African ancestry. I've written about this, as you know, and the L2a1 people's influence on the North African ancestors of the Natufians. Those are the only skeletal remains I know of that hint at this terminal Pleistocene L2a1 migration to the eastern Sahara. What I'm interested in is evidence of additional, post-Neolithic, migration of these people to the eastern Sahara. For all the wishful optimism that they represent a large population in early dynastic Egypt, the evidence is very weak, or simply doesn't exist:
Well since I first began studying the topic of Egypt's African identity years ago when I was still in high school I did come across several old sources which point out "negroid" crania among predynastic skeletal remains. These sources say although they were a minority (despite claims to the contrary by some Afrocentrics) they were still significant enough a presence to be remarked, with around 30% of predynastic crania in Upper Egypt being classified as "negroid" by honest anthropologists.
quote:
quote:Overall, as predicted by HVSI-I data, most of the L2 lineages entered Eastern Africa between 15 and 7 ka.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep12526.pdf ^Look at that time frame. This is why Natufian aDNA is so damning to Afrocentrists as far as providing an approximation of the West/Central African ancestry in Egypt. Xyyman and other DNA Tribes dupes refuse to address this and act like it doesn't exist. I have posted this paper many times for DNA Tribes-touting ES members to comment on. They never do, for obvious reasons.
Which is exactly why I don't even address such dopes let alone take them serious enough to debate. I mean who in the right mind would expect the prehistoric Nile Valley folk let alone Levantine folk to share close affinities to West/Central Africans in the first place?? Acknowledging that the Egyptians and Nubians were black Africans is one thing but as soon as I point out that this doesn't mean that genetically they are close 'kissing cousins' of West Africans do the Afronuts attack me. My hypothesis is simply whatever relations Nile Valley Africans may have with West Africans, whether genetic or especially cultural, it is indirect via the Central Sahara and whatever populations existed there. And judging from the aarchaeological evidence, the Central Sahara during the Holocene wet phase was home to diverse populations one of which is no doubt the source of mtDNA hg L2a which spread to Egypt and then the Levant. I'm thinking they are probably the source of Benin HBS in the Nile Valley and eastern Mediterranean as well.
quote:North Africa. I especially like Ehret's ideas on where various North African linguistic communities were concentrated over time. Although there may have been refugia in the Horn where some of these people retreated from time to time. What are your thoughts?
I too think the morphology is indigenous to at least Northeastern Africa, though what do you make of Terminal Pleistocene remains as far south as Kenya and Tanzania displaying similar morphology such as the Naivasha and Gamble's Cave crania? Do you think there is close relation??
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I mean who in the right mind would expect the prehistoric Nile Valley folk let alone Levantine folk to share close affinities to West/Central Africans in the first place??
That is an interesting statement.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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^Out of curiosity, why did you point out that you still think there is SSA ancestry in Upper Egypt? No one in that thread denies that and main ongoing point of contention is how much SSA there was in ancient Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
PS- The reason why I pointed it out was because people around the net believe that there was almost zero SSA influence in Upper Egypt[don't blame them with this recent study], but based on L2, the Green Sahara and possible Nilo-Saharan/Nilotic influence there could have been added SSA admixture to the already indigenous Egyptian admixture in Upper Egypt.
I understand you may have a curiosity with that post, but that post was mainly addressing the "Anti-Afrocentric" crowd on sites like FBD and others.
Bro, you know how I move. If you feel I said something that had a lot of errors or was beyond stupid then just ask/correct me. I just wanted us to come to an understanding because it seems stuff got mixed up.
PS- As of how much SSA admixture in Upper Egypt I personally guess around 15-22%. Again my guessing. Not based on fact until we have actual data.
What needs to be addressed and studied thoroughly is the commonalities Tishkoff subscribes to, so this can answer the genome-wide data and mitochondrial genomes:
quote:African and Middle Eastern populations shared the greatest number of alleles absent from all other populations
—Sarah Tishkoff et al.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
He expects them for have close affinity with Western Europeans instead.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I mean who in the right mind would expect the prehistoric Nile Valley folk let alone Levantine folk to share close affinities to West/Central Africans in the first place??
That is an interesting statement.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: So testing for shared ancestry is different from testing for genetic distance? Can someone illustrate to me how someone could in theory have more shared ancestors with one group of people but be more genetically closer to another group of people that don't share as many ancestors? Was some of the research posted here supposed to explain that because I am still confused. And if there haven't been any studies that shows that can happen please post it.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: He expects them for have close affinity with Western Europeans instead.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I mean who in the right mind would expect the prehistoric Nile Valley folk let alone Levantine folk to share close affinities to West/Central Africans in the first place??
That is an interesting statement.
That is an interesting statement as well.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: So testing for shared ancestry is different from testing for genetic distance? Can someone illustrate to me how someone could in theory have more shared ancestors with one group of people but be more genetically closer to another group of people that don't share as many ancestors? Was some of the research posted here supposed to explain that because I am still confused. And if there haven't been any studies that shows that can happen please post it.
Watch this and listen carefully.
IRACDA NY-CAPS Postdoctoral Scholar Profile - Dr. Elizabeth Atkinson
quote: Originally posted by Xyyman: Blah! Blah! blah! Ish is too nice, so I will ask it. Do YOU Know the mTDNA HG of the Amarnas?
Xyyman, which of your multiple personalities am I talking to now? The one that said AE were "Horners" or the one that wrongly keeps accusing me of saying they were Horners?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Some of us a really too sensitive.
1. Geographically.
Based upon information about the AEians one would expect that modern Egyptians, albeit the peasants, to be closest to AEians.
One will also expect that next in line will be peoples from the Sahara and Upper Nile, Then peoples from the Sudan and Great Lakes.
2. Phenotypically `(if I am to believe in the stereotypically true Negro - we know that does not exist). But based on what I see on TV/Media
Then AEians are closest to Saharans and Horners. Few resemble the stereotypical Negro. None resemble nordic Europeans.
I am light years ahead of you Lioness, Hope I answered your question - as I said. I have never come across a white man smarter than me.
Count your blessings you all are in a position of power.
Sometimes I just don't know which of your internal voices I'm dealing with.
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posted
This is somewhat crazy and funny at the same time, on multiple levels.
quote:
Introduction
Two main routes out of Africa are still widely discussed: the Sinai, linking Egypt to the Levant, and the Bab el-Mandab strait, from the Horn of Africa to the Arabian Peninsula (Derricourt 2005). Early dates for the settlement of Southeast Asia by ∼50 ka (Barker et al. 2007) and Australia by 48 ka (Turney et al. 2001) combined with the distribution and ages of mtDNA lineages (Kivisild et al. 2003; Macaulay et al. 2005; Thangaraj et al. 2005; Atkinson et al. 2008; Soares et al. 2009) have suggested a “southern coastal route” via Arabia (Field and Lahr 2005) as the sole major exit from Africa in the Late Pleistocene (Beyin 2006; Mellars 2006; Richards et al. 2006; Bulbeck 2007). Nevertheless, controversy about the timing in particular remains.
[…]
Eastern African Origins
Furthermore, L3c is extremely rare: Only two samples have been detected so far, one in Eastern Africa and the other in the Near East.
[…]
North Africa
We performed a founder analysis stipulating three migration times, including a third one of 35.0 ka, based on the ages of U6, L3k and the population increase in the BSP (supplementary fig. S7, Supplementary Material online) with results presented in table 1
[…]
The other major lineages contributing to the 6.6 ka partition (Central African L3b, L3e1, and L3e2 lineages: founders F17, F28, and F41 in supplementary table S4, Supplementary Material online), suggest the postglacial period was characterized by gene flow across the Sahel belt (Cerný et al. 2007); these founder clades are mainly restricted to Northwest Africa and absent from Egypt.
—Pedro Soares et al.
The Expansion of mtDNA Haplogroup L3 within and out of Africa
quote:The group L3c of Watson et al. (1997) is renamed here as U6 (Richards et al. 1998) since it proves to constitute a part of haplogroup U (Richards et al. 1998) since it proves to constitute a part of haplogroup U.
—Rando JC1, Pinto F, González AM, Hernández M, Larruga JM, Cabrera VM, Bandelt HJ.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Well since I first began studying the topic of Egypt's African identity years ago when I was still in high school I did come across several old sources which point out "negroid" crania among predynastic skeletal remains. These sources say although they were a minority (despite claims to the contrary by some Afrocentrics) they were still significant enough a presence to be remarked, with around 30% of predynastic crania in Upper Egypt being classified as "negroid" by honest anthropologists. [/QB]
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] Yes I was alluding to her and also some Natufians with certain features diagnostic of West/Central African ancestry. I've written about this, as you know, and the L2a1 people's influence on the North African ancestors of the Natufians. Those are the only skeletal remains I know of that hint at this terminal Pleistocene L2a1 migration to the eastern Sahara. What I'm interested in is evidence of additional, post-Neolithic, migration of these people to the eastern Sahara. For all the wishful optimism that they represent a large population in early dynastic Egypt, the evidence is very weak, or simply doesn't exist:
Well since I first began studying the topic of Egypt's African identity years ago when I was still in high school I did come across several old sources which point out "negroid" crania among predynastic skeletal remains. These sources say although they were a minority (despite claims to the contrary by some Afrocentrics) they were still significant enough a presence to be remarked, with around 30% of predynastic crania in Upper Egypt being classified as "negroid" by honest anthropologists.
I think you're referring to the analysis undertaken by MacIver and Thomson. Note, though, that even of those "negroid" individuals, only a subset would cluster with most SSA groups. When you look at the criteria they used to identify negroid Egyptians, it covers not just Sub-Saharan Africans, but also northeast Africans and even Afalou and Taforalt (who we now know, have substantial Eurasian mtDNAs). One of the criteria they used was platyrrhiny. Look at the map below for an indication of how different populations relate in terms of this index: https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/saharan-populations-compared1.png
MacIver and Thompson started counting individuals as negroid already at 51%, while the Sub-Saharan population averages used here start at 57%. Most predynastic Egyptian populations average around 52%, while dynastic Egyptian populatons average lower, towards West Eurasians. Because of this, predynastic population averages are called negroid. But it's clear that most predynastic population averages are nowhere near the 57-60% range of the Sub-Saharan African population averages shown here. Lioness recently posted this table from a German study, where various measurements of Egyptian mummies are listed. As you can see, two of the four Egyptian mummies can be classified as negroid in terms of nasal index, but only one of these negroid individuals approaches the range of SSA population averages. The other three, one of which also has a 'negroid index', are far removed from SSA population averages:
quote:My hypothesis is simply whatever relations Nile Valley Africans may have with West Africans, whether genetic or especially cultural, it is indirect via the Central Sahara and whatever populations existed there. And judging from the aarchaeological evidence, the Central Sahara during the Holocene wet phase was home to diverse populations one of which is no doubt the source of mtDNA hg L2a which spread to Egypt and then the Levant. I'm thinking they are probably the source of Benin HBS in the Nile Valley and eastern Mediterranean as well.
I have not looked into the possible genetic affiliations of prehistoric Central Saharans much, but the pre-Neolithic Round Head rock art in the Central Sahara and certain skeletal remains in the region support a presence of SSA groups there. I have posted about these skeletal remains in the past, but it was a long time ago. I don't remember the source, unfortunately.
quote:I too think the morphology is indigenous to at least Northeastern Africa, though what do you make of Terminal Pleistocene remains as far south as Kenya and Tanzania displaying similar morphology such as the Naivasha and Gamble's Cave crania? Do you think there is close relation??
I have been working on the origins of those populations. I'm still gathering evidence to make sure I'm on point. I aint trying to go out like the Xyyman's "Niger Congo Natufians" that never materialized. Lol.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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At a recent meeting in Oakland of the American Research Center in Egypt three scientists announced with confidence they had ruled out all of those five locations, and there was no disagreement from the 300 archaeologists there.
The Land of Punt, the scientist said, must have existed in eastern North Africa - either in the region where Ethiopia and Eritrea confront each other, or east of the Upper Nile in a lowland area of eastern Sudan.
--Scientists zero in on ancient Land of Punt
David Perlman Chronicle Science Editor The San Francisco Chronicle May 08, 2010
quote: Baboon mummy analysis reveals Eritrea and Ethiopia as location of land of Punt
Analysis of mummified baboons in the British Museum has revealed the location of the land of Punt as the area between Ethiopia and Eritrea. To the Egyptians, Punt was a place of fragrances, giraffes, electrum and other exotic goods, and was sometimes referred to as Ta-netjer, or 'God’s land'.
There are several ancient Egyptian texts that record trade voyages to the Land of Punt, dating up until the end of the New Kingdom, 3,000 years ago. But until now scholars did not know where Punt was. Ancient texts offer only vague allusions to its location and no 'Puntite' civilization has been discovered. Somalia, Ethiopia, Yemen and even Mozambique have all been offered as possible locations.
However, it appears that the search for Punt may have come to an end according to new research which claims to prove that it was located in Eritrea/East Ethiopia. Live baboons were among the goods that we know the Egyptians got from Punt. The research team included Professor Salima Ikram from the Egyptian Museum, Cairo, and Professor Nathaniel Dominy and graduate student Gillian Leigh Moritz, both from the University of California, Santa Cruz.
The team studied two baboon mummies in the British Museum. By analysing hairs from these baboons using oxygen isotope analysis, they were able to work out where they originated. Oxygen isotopes act as a 'signal' that can let scientists know where they came from. Depending on the environment an animal lived in, the ratio of different isotopes of oxygen will be different. “Oxygen tends to vary as a function of rainfall and the water composition of plants and seed,” said Professor Nathaniel Dominy of UC Santa Cruz.
Only one of the two baboons was suitable for the research – the other had spent time in Thebes as an exotic pet, and so its isotopic data had been distorted. Working on the baboon discovered in the Valley of the Kings, the researchers compared the oxygen isotope values in the ancient baboons to those found in their modern day brethren. Although isotope values in baboons in Somalia, Yemen and Mozambique did not match, those in Eritrea and Eastern Ethiopia were closely matched.
“All of our specimens in Eritrea and a certain number of our specimens from Ethiopia – that are basically due west from Eritrea – those are good matches,” said Professor Dominy.
The team were unable to compare the mummies with baboons in Yemen. However, Professor Dominy reasoned that “We can tell, based on the isotopic maps of the region, that a baboon from Yemen would look an awful lot like a baboon from Somalia isotopically.” As Somalia is definitely not the place of origin for the baboon, this suggests that Yemen is not the place of origin either.
He concluded that “We think Punt is a sort of circumscribed region that includes eastern Ethiopia and all of Eritrea.”
The team also think that they may have discovered the location of the harbour that the Egyptians would have used to export the baboons and other goods back to Egypt. Dominy points to an area just outside the modern city of Massawa: “We have a specimen from that same harbour and that specimen is a very good match to the mummy.”
Next, the team hopes to get the British Museum’s permission to take a pea-sized sample of bone from the baboon mummy and use it strontium isotope testing. This would hopefully confirm Eritrea/Eastern Ethiopia as the baboon’s origin and narrow down its location more specifically.
What are your thoughts on the upcoming Tanzanian pastoralist paper thats coming out? The Euronut wannabe Razib Khan attended the conference iirc and spoke on it.
I asked because you been in a long hiatus.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
Ho! Ho! split? Insert Sarcasm about Western European. But yes I expected the modern peasant Egyptians to be closest to the AEians but based upon genetics of the Amarnas and genetics of modern Egyptians, obviously they are NOT. Modern Egyptian has 18-20% foreign ancestry. Amarnas has very distant ancestry to modern Egyptians, Levantines and Western Europeans. Greatest affinity with Great Lakes Africans while West Africans come in 3rd.
That is why you can NOT perform "eye ball anthropology"
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Xyyman: Blah! Blah! blah! Ish is too nice, so I will ask it. Do YOU Know the mTDNA HG of the Amarnas?
Xyyman, which of your multiple personalities am I talking to now? The one that said AE were "Horners" or the one that wrongly keeps accusing me of saying they were Horners?
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Some of us a really too sensitive.
1. Geographically.
Based upon information about the AEians one would expect that modern Egyptians, albeit the peasants, to be closest to AEians.
One will also expect that next in line will be peoples from the Sahara and Upper Nile, Then peoples from the Sudan and Great Lakes.
2. Phenotypically `(if I am to believe in the stereotypically true Negro - we know that does not exist). But based on what I see on TV/Media
Then AEians are closest to Saharans and Horners. Few resemble the stereotypical Negro. None resemble nordic Europeans.
I am light years ahead of you Lioness, Hope I answered your question - as I said. I have never come across a white man smarter than me.
Count your blessings you all are in a position of power.
Sometimes I just don't know which of your internal voices I'm dealing with.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
And ..yes, I go where the data take me. The "haplogroup composition" of the Abusir mummies us reflective of Horners. But the STR profile data of the Amarnas are not Horners. Let us wait on ElMaestro to provide the STR profile of the Abusirs so we can compare "apples and apples".
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Modern Egyptian has 18-20% foreign ancestry. […]
What do you consider native to Egypt (Northeast African)?
quote: "Both the haplotype and MSMC analyses thus suggest a predominant northern route out of Africa via Egypt."
[…]
Sequence data avoid the effect of ascertainment bias that one encounters when dealing with SNP arrays from the same populations (Figure S1). If the northern route was the predominant path followed by the ancestors of the OOA populations, and modern African populations are representative of those at the time of the exit, Egyptians should be genetically more similar to modern non-Africans. Conversely, if the southern route was the main way out of Africa, Ethiopians should be closest to the OOA populations. However, extensive historical and genetic data show that recent gene flow has drastically influenced the genomes of present-day Egyptians and Ethiopians.
To minimize the confounding effect of this gene flow back to Africa while testing this hypothesis, we first identified and then masked the recent non-African ancestry in the Ethiopian and Egyptian genomes.
—Luca Pagani et al.
Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians
What are these Ethiopian and Egyptian genomes?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I mean who in the right mind would expect the prehistoric Nile Valley folk let alone Levantine folk to share close affinities to West/Central Africans in the first place??
Me. And all those exclusive Pygmy genes in the royals tested so far proved it.
I noticed that DnaConsultants didnt even profile the really exclusively central African markers. They profiled worldly markers that were Central African in origin.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Amarnas has very distant ancestry to modern Egyptians, Levantines and Western Europeans. Greatest affinity with Great Lakes Africans while West Africans come in 3rd.
Modern Egyptians are closer to Sub Saharan Africans than supposedly "Niger Congo" Abusir mummies and Natufians. Damn, gramps. You got duped hard.
quote:Let us wait on ElMaestro to provide the STR profile of the Abusirs so we can compare "apples and apples".
More wishful thinking and faith-based optimism. Amarna alleles peak in Adaima Muslims and other regional samples. But if you insist on more embarrassment, are you willing to bet that the Abusir mummies have Amarna alleles?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Amarna alleles peak in Adaima Muslims and other regional samples. But if you insist on more embarrassment, are you willing to bet that the Abusir mummies have Amarna alleles?
That's certainly interesting.
Is this the paper you're referring at?
"Allele frequencies of 15 short tandem repeats (STRs) in three Egyptian populations of different ethnic groups"
Beatrix Midant-Reynes did some archeological fieldwork on this site.
quote: Attention is paid to archeological finds and problems of climatic fluctuations. Afrocentrists may note that the oldest skeletal remains are "somewhat negroid."
--Beatrix Midant-Reynes. The Prehistory of Egypt: From the First Egyptians to the First Pharoahs
quote: The site of Adaima is crucial for understanding the Predynastic cultures of Upper Egypt. Located 8 km south from the modern city of Esna, Adaima occupies an area of 35 ha and consists of a large settlement and two necropoleis. It was occupied from the end of Naqada I (ca. 3900 bce) to the 3rd Dynasty (ca. 2700).
quote: Based on the sherds found in the filling of the trenches and the holes, these, structures can be dated from the end of Nagada I to the middle of Nagada II. This stands m contrast to the very mixed surface material found, but also here the material never extends beyond Dynasty I.
--Beatrix Midant-Reynes. The Predynastic site of Adaima (Upper Egypt)
Interregional Contacts in the Later Prehistory of Northeastem Africa Poznan 1996
quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: Also @Ish Gebor
Good point.
What are you referring at?
Your Tishkoff post you posted to me.
Hmmm, I see.
quote: Testing whether a serial founder effect could give rise to the decay of expected heterozygosity with distance observed in Fig. 4A requires appropriate demographic models for calculating the effect of drift. We performed simulations of evolutionary processes to assess whether we could recover a similar pattern to what was computed from the data as shown in Fig. 4A (37). Assume for simplicity that we begin with a parental population, and there are n serial bottleneck episodes starting at the origin (the location of the parental population). In each bottleneck, a sample of individuals of size Nb founds the next colony, which is established at some distance from the previous colony and which remains isolated from all other colonies. This subsampling generates a succession of colonies in time, each of which grows to a large size K before generating the next colony in the chain.
[...]
Further, the observed pattern of within-population diversity is best explained by an origin in Africa (Fig. 5). By studying the relationship between genetic and geographic distance, we can assess the relative importance of genetic drift and natural selection in determining the genetic variation observed among human populations. The average contribution of drift generated by the serial founder effect might be estimated from the properties of the regression in Figs. 1B and 4A. Because our regressions explain 76–78% of the observed genetic variation, this quantity is therefore an estimate of the minimum influence that drift, due to the serial founder effect, has on the total variation observed. In other words, the fraction of the variation in heterozy- gosity across human populations that is explained by drift is at least 76–78%. If stabilizing selection has been a major force in human evolution, then the decrease of average heterozygosity would be reduced, and the slope in Fig. 4A would be less negative (by an unknown amount).
--Sohini Ramachandran et al.
Support from the relationship of genetic and geographic distance in human populations for a serial founder effect originating in Africa
posted
My warning asking both sides to be civil clearly went ignored and so I deleted all flame war posts after that warning.
This thread isn't about DNAtribes, silly personal beefs/vendettas or even the Ancient Egyptians but "the difference between genome-wide data and mitochondrial genomes." This thread was going perfectly until the silly personal beefs and flame wars[which I admit I did enable a bit]. Again this is a warning to BOTH SIDES... Xyyman, Swenet, Mansamusa, Ish Geber, Lioness, and Fourty2Tribes.
Djehuti was the ONLY POSTER in thread that remained civil and out of this silly forum beef. Be LIKE Djehuti... Anyways, after this warning this thread will be locked if this continues. You all been warned.
PS-Intentionally dragging other posters names down around this site is not allowed[not in my section] to create a false narrative about their position/character is not allowed and I'm thinking about making it a official rule.
/MOD
Edit-If you feel a poster is purposely dragging your name down to ruin your character than contact a MOD and we'll deal with it. That's what we are here FOR. This is the Egyptology section and personal beefs stinks up threads.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So South Africans have the most similarity to the ancient Egyptians?
ancient DNA is not modern DNA. The MLI is a method proprietary to the private testing company DNA Tribes and their results are not peer reviewed.
Zawi Hawass team reported Rameses III predicted E1b1a. Does that mean all ancient Egyptians were E1b1a ? No but that is a peer reviewed article published in a scientific journal
We are talking two people from the 20th dynasty and like 3 from the 18th with them being inbred. They are however of the Upper Egyptian lineage. Amenhotep iii is a descendant. There was much continuity between the 18th and 20th so Amehotep iii's genes might be common in ancient Upper Egypt.
Dna Tribes is peer reviewed and authority reviewed. That said, who gives a damn if a regarded ancestry company is peer reviewed when they are running an ancestry test?
An ancestry company ran an ancestry test. Lets make that clear, no spooky stuff. Their results on the Armanas were replicated by DnaConsultants and Pop affiliator. It was Pop affiliator's pissass for African diversity database that rated them as more SSA than me... cept Yuya by two percents give or take. Dna Tribes is a lot more accurate than that database and their MLI scores are chess to checkers compared to Pop Aff. Pop Aff is peer reviewed too btw. Still Tukler's work with SPSsmart is the most telling because that is where you can see why the MLI scores were what they were. That and Beyoku and Swenet's discovery on the Karamojong having the more exclusive Euro markers. Dna Tribe's database has Karamojong so its results should be more SSA than Pop Aff.
Yeah all ancient Egyptians aren't E1b1a. Ramses iii might not have been. Its a prediction. I think Beyoku is right that Ramsses iii might be Ev-22. I think his leaked haplogroups are also legit which included instances e1b1a.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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