...
EgyptSearch Forums Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » So the skin color of the Egyptians in art is symbolic (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: So the skin color of the Egyptians in art is symbolic
Ase
Member
Member # 19740

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ase     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I heard Egyptian art shouldn't be counted for much because the way they made themselves look on average was just symbolism. What evidence do we have that says the dark brown-red shades are symbolic? Were they symbolic and not literal in every situation or just religious ones.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Symbolic of what? And if there is a system of symbolism, that doesn't mean everything in AE art is symbolic. Obviously images of chairs, geese, crocodiles and humans are very realistic in AE art along with symbolic things like Heiroglyphics and Deities. If what you mean is that Brown skin color is symbolic, then why is tan or pale skin color not symbolic as well? Obviously humans in real life have brown, tan and pale skin. So I don't see how symbolism applies there.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Autshumato
Junior Member
Member # 22722

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Autshumato     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If it shows someone with green skin, that might be symbolic.

--------------------
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.”

Posts: 195 | From: Southern Africa(Azania) | Registered: Mar 2017  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Punos_Rey
Administrator
Member # 21929

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Punos_Rey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Supernatural skin colors(green; blue, pure white, golden yellow) are much more likely to be symbolic. Though iirc the Amarna period was an era where naturalism became a standard in AE art, there's plenty of naturalistic pieces from much earlier dynasties that i doubt were meant to be symbolic.

--------------------
 -

Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square.

Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Forty2Tribes
Member
Member # 21799

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Forty2Tribes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Black can also be symbolic and reds were often used in place of browns. Smaller models are almost always browns while big paintings that require more paint are more likely to be red.


Too mundane to be symbolic.
 -

 -

Symbolic because he is not consistently depicted as such.

 -

Not symbolic because she is consistently depicted as such.

Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Punos_Rey
Administrator
Member # 21929

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Punos_Rey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ahmose-Nefertari does have several depictions with brown skin


 -

--------------------
 -

Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square.

Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 3 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:

I heard Egyptian art shouldn't be counted for much because the way they made themselves look on average was just symbolism. What evidence do we have that says the dark brown-red shades are symbolic? Were they symbolic and not literal in every situation or just religious ones.

This topic was covered before here, here,here,here,here, and here.

But to answer your question, there is a common color scheme or convention in art where men are portrayed as reddish brown and women as yellow, whereas certaind deities may be depicted with inhuman colors like blue or green.

The choice of the single red-brown color to represent The Egyptian man rather than a more realistic range of shades should also be considered within a wider symbolic scheme that included the representations of foreginers. The foreign men to the north and west of Egypt were depicted by yellow skin[similar to that odf traditional Egyptian women]; men to the south of Egypt were given black skin. Although undoubtedly some Egyptians' skin pigmentation differed little from that of Egypt's neighbors, in the Egyptian worldview foreigners had to be distinguished. Thus Egyptian men had to be marked by a common skin color that contrasted with the images of non-Egyptian men. That the Egyptian women shared their skin color with some foreign men scarcely mattered, since the Egyptian male is primary and formed the reference point in these two color schemes---
contrasting in one with non-Egyptian males and in the other with Egyptian females...

...Male and female skin colors were probabaly not uniform among the entire population of Egypt, with pigmentation being darker in the south[closer to sub-sahara Africans] and lighter in the north[closer to Mediterranean Near Easteners] A woman from the south would probabaly have had darker skin than a man from the North. Thus,the colorations used for skin tones in the art must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic; the clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based on elite ideals relating to male and female roles in which women's responsibilities kept them indoors,so that they spent less time in the sun than men. Nevertheless, the signifcance of the two colors may be even deeper,making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference between men and women in Egyptian worldview...

'A Guide to Egyptian Religion' by Gay Robins (Color Symbolism pages Page 57-61), The Ancient Gods Speak Ed. by Donald Redford.

I disagree with the assessment that womens' yellow coloring was due to being indoors since countless Egyptian murals portray peasant women laboring outdoors with their men and still depicted as yellow while elite women are shown outdoors taking part in recreations with their men and still depicted as yellow. I personally think the yellow coloring does indeed have a deeper spiritual meaning based on a common custom practiced by Afro-asiatic speaking women from the Sahara to the Horn where they would don yellow make-up. I plan on making a thread on this topic too when I have time.

That said, not all Egyptian art portrayed this convention and there are many instances of exceptions to this general rule where men and women are portrayed in their realistic complexions.

One such example would be the mural of Lord Nebamun and his wife who is darker-skinned.

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/D96G19/nebamun-hunting-in-the-marshes-nebamun-is-in-a-small-boat-hunting-D96G19.jpg

But judging by the countless examples of Egyptian people depicted in their allegedly true complexions, one can surmise that the average Egyptian skin tone ranged from mahogany to chocolate brown.

As for the color black (jet-black), I believe that color also holds deep spiritual meanings as deities who specifically represent or possess the power of rebirth and renewal are sometimes depicted as such.

For example Ausar (Osiris) has as one of his epithets Kem-Wer literally meaning 'Great Black'...

 -

Or Asat (Isis) as Kem-Weret

 -

Such black Isis and baby Horus idols were the inspiration for the black Madonna and baby Jesus idols.

Ausar and Asat were also called Kem-Sho meaning 'Black-Faced'

The god Min was also depicted in black and had the epithet of 'great black phallus'!

 -

And of course Anupu (Anubis) the black jackal

 -

The Great Wife Ahmose Nefertari and founding matriarch of the 18th dynasty presents a unique situation because she was actually deified before her death having her own cult dedicated to herself which explains the depictions of her jet-black like a deity.

Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

countless Egyptian murals portray peasant women laboring outdoors with their men and still depicted as yellow

can you post or link one ?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sudanese
Member
Member # 15779

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for sudanese     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Egyptians apparently became more African in later dynastic periods but also became lighter... they transitioned from mahogany-brown to an olive-hue. That's extraordinary.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

countless Egyptian murals portray peasant women laboring outdoors with their men and still depicted as yellow

can you post or link one ?
Here are several

http://media.gettyimages.com/illustrations/egypt-thebes-tomb-of-unsu-woman-bringing-food-to-workers-in-fields-illustration-id102105687

http://www.egyptorigins.org/images/ldae93.jpg

 -

--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A pectoral depicting King Tut blessed by Maat.

 -

^ Note his head is blackened and the rest of of his body is light until the neck. Perhaps this is symbolic of him being reborn by the 'blue' Maat.

--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BrandonP
Member
Member # 3735

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BrandonP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not sure whether it's related, but you do find West and Central African masks with white kaolin paint on them that are supposed to represent female characters:

 -
Mask (Mukudj)
quote:
The face is painted white with kaolin, which both references the earthly beauty of the woman represented and symbolizes the spirits of past ancestors.


--------------------
Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher

My art thread on ES

And my books thread

Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

countless Egyptian murals portray peasant women laboring outdoors with their men and still depicted as yellow

can you post or link one ?
Here are several

http://media.gettyimages.com/illustrations/egypt-thebes-tomb-of-unsu-woman-bringing-food-to-workers-in-fields-illustration-id102105687

http://www.egyptorigins.org/images/ldae93.jpg

 -

.


.

 -


 -

It reminds me of some moroccan berbers

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:

I heard Egyptian art shouldn't be counted for much because the way they made themselves look on average was just symbolism. What evidence do we have that says the dark brown-red shades are symbolic? Were they symbolic and not literal in every situation or just religious ones.

This topic was covered before here, here,here,here,here, and here.

But to answer your question, there is a common color scheme or convention in art where men are portrayed as reddish brown and women as yellow, whereas certaind deities may be depicted with inhuman colors like blue or green.

The choice of the single red-brown color to represent The Egyptian man rather than a more realistic range of shades should also be considered within a wider symbolic scheme that included the representations of foreginers. The foreign men to the north and west of Egypt were depicted by yellow skin[similar to that odf traditional Egyptian women]; men to the south of Egypt were given black skin. Although undoubtedly some Egyptians' skin pigmentation differed little from that of Egypt's neighbors, in the Egyptian worldview foreigners had to be distinguished. Thus Egyptian men had to be marked by a common skin color that contrasted with the images of non-Egyptian men. That the Egyptian women shared their skin color with some foreign men scarcely mattered, since the Egyptian male is primary and formed the reference point in these two color schemes---
contrasting in one with non-Egyptian males and in the other with Egyptian females...

...Male and female skin colors were probabaly not uniform among the entire population of Egypt, with pigmentation being darker in the south[closer to sub-sahara Africans] and lighter in the north[closer to Mediterranean Near Easteners] A woman from the south would probabaly have had darker skin than a man from the North. Thus,the colorations used for skin tones in the art must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic; the clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based on elite ideals relating to male and female roles in which women's responsibilities kept them indoors,so that they spent less time in the sun than men. Nevertheless, the signifcance of the two colors may be even deeper,making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference between men and women in Egyptian worldview...

'A Guide to Egyptian Religion' by Gay Robins (Color Symbolism pages Page 57-61), The Ancient Gods Speak Ed. by Donald Redford.

I disagree with the assessment that womens' yellow coloring was due to being indoors since countless Egyptian murals portray peasant women laboring outdoors with their men and still depicted as yellow while elite women are shown outdoors taking part in recreations with their men and still depicted as yellow. I personally think the yellow coloring does indeed have a deeper spiritual meaning based on a common custom practiced by Afro-asiatic speaking women from the Sahara to the Horn where they would don yellow make-up. I plan on making a thread on this topic too when I have time.

That said, not all Egyptian art portrayed this convention and there are many instances of exceptions to this general rule where men and women are portrayed in their realistic complexions.

One such example would be the mural of Lord Nebamun and his wife who is darker-skinned.

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/D96G19/nebamun-hunting-in-the-marshes-nebamun-is-in-a-small-boat-hunting-D96G19.jpg

But judging by the countless examples of Egyptian people depicted in their allegedly true complexions, one can surmise that the average Egyptian skin tone ranged from mahogany to chocolate brown.

As for the color black (jet-black), I believe that color also holds deep spiritual meanings as deities who specifically represent or possess the power of rebirth and renewal are sometimes depicted as such.

For example Ausar (Osiris) has as one of his epithets Kem-Wer literally meaning 'Great Black'...

 -

Or Asat (Isis) as Kem-Weret

 -

Such black Isis and baby Horus idols were the inspiration for the black Madonna and baby Jesus idols.

Ausar and Asat were also called Kem-Sho meaning 'Black-Faced'

The god Min was also depicted in black and had the epithet of 'great black phallus'!

 -

And of course Anupu (Anubis) the black jackal

 -

The Great Wife Ahmose Nefertari and founding matriarch of the 18th dynasty presents a unique situation because she was actually deified before her death having her own cult dedicated to herself which explains the depictions of her jet-black like a deity.

Another key piece of the symbolism of Egyptian art is that the color black is a key to "alkhem" or chemistry. Black is the color of carbon. Hence in some texts the literal term Km as in KMT is often said to be a pile of burning coals. Coal and black are tied together as being symbols of carbon. Carbon "the black element" is the key component of all life on the planet earth. Hence the "black mystery" of creation is symbolized as life rising out of the infinite wisdom of the black universe. So min symbolizes life rising out of itself as in life rising out of the chemical processes within the elements of the universe itself. Osiris also symbolizes this same process being "the earth" or "the black substance" within the earth (carbon) from which life arose and to which all life on earth returns in a continuous chemical cycle of life, death, and regeneration from the same elements of carbon in the earth itself.... All of this kind of symbolism and alchemy is the basis of the "magic" of life itself which was the "mystery" of the ancients referring to the process of creation and the awakened conscious mind.... It also symbolizes the blackness of the first human as the "seed" of life (carbon based life forms) and consciousness on the planet earth (again symbolic of the connection between the blackness of infinite space/time, the blackness of carbon, blackness of the first humans and the process of creation). It also symbolizes the process of agriculture as "managing the seed" of plants and flowers for planting and harvesting in the "black earth" from which the seeds and the flowers "magically" were born from the infinite seed that symbolizes the "godhead" of creation that impregnates the infinite womb of mother nature (again blackness/inner space/infinite mystery). The symbolism of the flail and the "right angle" refers to the development of math as a way to 'manage the seed' of creation or in other words agriculture and the means to measure land areas and output of farm production which is all tied to royal authority and kingship.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Geber     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
I heard Egyptian art shouldn't be counted for much because the way they made themselves look on average was just symbolism. What evidence do we have that says the dark brown-red shades are symbolic? Were they symbolic and not literal in every situation or just religious ones.

Some is and some is not symbolic.

Usually it is the exaggerated colors.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Geber     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

countless Egyptian murals portray peasant women laboring outdoors with their men and still depicted as yellow

can you post or link one ?
Here are several

http://media.gettyimages.com/illustrations/egypt-thebes-tomb-of-unsu-woman-bringing-food-to-workers-in-fields-illustration-id102105687

http://www.egyptorigins.org/images/ldae93.jpg

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/images/thothmosisIIItomb.jpg

http://www.moroccoworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Moroccan-beautiful-woman-3.jpg


http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/berber-moroccan-woman-wearing-traditional-outfits-parades-during-the-picture-id531511790

It reminds me of some moroccan berbers

Nice, but what is the ethic background, within the "berber" confederation?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 3 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:

Not sure whether it's related, but you do find West and Central African masks with white kaolin paint on them that are supposed to represent female characters:

 -
Mask (Mukudj)
quote:
The face is painted white with kaolin, which both references the earthly beauty of the woman represented and symbolizes the spirits of past ancestors.

I believe the white paint more accurately connotes the latter-- spirits of past ancestors since it is a common custom among Niger-Congo speaking peoples (including Bantu) to don white paint in ceremonies and rituals of the deceased. White being the color of spirits.

 -

Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^I agree with DJ. White in West African culture correlates death/deceased. Im part Haitian and even in Haitian Vodou white correlates with the deceased.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Punos_Rey
Administrator
Member # 21929

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Punos_Rey   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^in Egypt too, as shown in this piece painted after Ramses III died

 -

Edit: another of Ramses III postmortem

 -

--------------------
 -

Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square.

Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Geber     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

countless Egyptian murals portray peasant women laboring outdoors with their men and still depicted as yellow

can you post or link one ?
Here are several

http://media.gettyimages.com/illustrations/egypt-thebes-tomb-of-unsu-woman-bringing-food-to-workers-in-fields-illustration-id102105687

http://www.egyptorigins.org/images/ldae93.jpg

 -

.


.

 -


 -

It reminds me of some moroccan berbers

Btw,


code:
 Geography	                   Founder Analysis


Migration Time (ka) % of L3 Lineages (SE)

East Africa 58.8 74.0 (0.5)

1.8 20.1 (2.6)
0.1 5.9 (2.5)


Central Africa 42.4 75.0 (2.7)
9.2 24.1 (2.8)
0.1 0.9 (0.2)

North Africa 35.0 7.4 (2.7)
6.6 67.0 (4.0)
0.6 25.7 (3.1)

South Africa 3.2 86.7 (4.3)
0.1 13.3 (4.3)

South Africa (southern)1.8 83.4 (3.7)
0.1 16.6 (3.7)

--Pedro Soares
The Expansion of mtDNA Haplogroup L3 within and out of Africa


quote:


Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.

[...]


Indeed, taking into account the Tunisian sequences belonging to haplogroup L2a from Sejnane, Zriba, Kesra, Matmata, Sned, and Chenini-Douiret, we obtain a divergence age of about 28,000 ± 8,900 years, which is the same age calculated for this haplogroup including all the described sequences. However, we noticed two pairs of related haplotypes in the Kesra population, where we detected a local evolution of the L2a cluster, suggesting that this haplogroup could have been introduced earlier in Kesra.

--Frigi et al.

Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BrandonP
Member
Member # 3735

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BrandonP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Something I dug up today:

Tan Men/Pale Women: Color and Gender in Archaic Greece and Egypt, a Comparative Approach

quote:
Chapter 1, “Egypt: Establishing the Norm—Old Kingdom Precedents,” introduces basic principles of ancient Egyptian art from the late Predynastic Period (ca. 3500–3000 BCE) through the New Kingdom (ca. 1550–1070 BCE), focusing primarily on the most well-known examples of elite funerary statues from the Old Kingdom, by which time, the author states, color conventions were firmly established (28–29). Eaverly rejects the interpretation that the gender-differential skin color convention realistically depicts sun exposure. Instead, she argues that the differentiation is meant to express duality, or “oppositional pairs” (40), which mirrors concepts of Egyptian ideology, such as the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt, or order and chaos, where “unions of opposites symbolized completion” (40). Eaverly further suggests that binary skin color in tomb paintings was a way to demarcate the dual, complementary roles of men and women in the perpetuation of the creation myth, as well as the role of women to act as a stimulus for reproduction, thus guaranteeing the afterlife of the tomb owner (41). Such completion, she argues, was imperative to maintain order in the cosmos, and male and female colors, which she believes are opposites, are just one method of portraying this duality.
Another review of the same book:

quote:
An introduction sets out the issues to be tackled. Two chapters on Egyptian art follow. The first argues that the establishment of color differentiation (the binary system of pale skin for women and dark skin for men) was contemporary with the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt, and thus the establishment of the Egyptian nation-state, ca. 3100 B.C.E. The convention clearly distinguished men and women as opposites and so visually supported the maat, the concept of a balanced cosmos fundamental to Egyptian belief. At the same time, the convention supported the new dominant role of the male in Egyptian culture: society, Eaverly argues, had been more egalitarian in the Predynastic period, where color differentiation is not much in evidence (47–8). In the end, the opposition between the pale and the tan in Dynastic art is not realistic but symbolic of the new order—of a new view of the world. On the whole the case is made, though conventions have to begin somewhere, and I wonder if this one might not have been “realistic” at least in origin: after all, if color differentiation were purely symbolic, men might be pale and women tan and the expression of “complementary opposition” (55) would be just as clear. Along the same lines, Eaverly concedes that color can at times signify ethnicity or “race.” Nubians can be painted black and Asiatics yellow, so “realism” plays a role in color choice after all (35, 49).


--------------------
Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher

My art thread on ES

And my books thread

Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

is it symbolism when it comes to depicting horses and other Africans
(if other Africans and Horses are both brown so why not Egyptians as well? ancient Egyptians were of African descent and were known throughout the ancient world as being dark and black skinned)

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -
ancient egyptian soldiers
^^^
i doubt this is symbolism

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
 -
ancient egyptian soldiers
^^^
i doubt this is symbolism

 -


Sennefer and Hatshepsut-Meryetre  -

 -
 -
 -

Despite the opening post of this thread, the question is usually raised about some of the the women being portrayed in lighter tone, whether or not the women in particular's skin tone is realistic or symbolic

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
 -
ancient egyptian soldiers
^^^
i doubt this is symbolism

 -


Sennefer and Hatshepsut-Meryetre  -

 -
 -
 -

Despite the opening post of this thread, the question is usually raised about some of the the women being portrayed in lighter tone, whether or not the women in particular's skin tone is realistic or symbolic

 -

Dark skinned women

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

 -

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes there are dark skinned women too but people usually bring up the question of symbolism in those particular works that show a woman much lighter relative to the man
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Yes there are dark skinned women too but people usually bring up the question of symbolism in those particular works that show a woman much lighter relative to the man

 -

Ancient Egyptian men and women next to each other

Ancient Egyptian men took on foreign wives and light skinned images are actually representations of gold

 -
^^^
notice the difference in complexion on the same woman

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^^ Actually it is not the same woman. The mural above portrays the goddess Het-her guiding the queen Nefertari wife of Ramesiu II.

By the way, the brown paint of Nefertari is faded if you do an images search on Nefertari's tomb you can see images where only traces of the brown coloring is left on her cheeks, neck, hands, and feet.

As I explained earlier, certain colors in Egyptian art are symbolic. The most common type is the yellow color of women.

Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^ Actually it is not the same woman. The mural above portrays the goddess Het-her guiding the queen Nefertari wife of Ramesiu II.

By the way, the brown paint of Nefertari is faded if you do an images search on Nefertari's tomb you can see images where only traces of the brown coloring is left on her cheeks, neck, hands, and feet.

As I explained earlier, certain colors in Egyptian art are symbolic. The most common type is the yellow color of women.

nefertari is dressed like Het-Her

Ancient Egyptians dressed like the gods to represent the gods in their tombs

Ancient Egyptians did not really believe gods had a human form

Ancient Egyptians represent gods the same way people represent the sun

 -
^^^ the sun obviously is not human but this child gave the sun a personality to explain its function
(the Egyptian gods are similar in this respect)

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ Egyptian royals i.e. kings and queens dressed up as deities as part of rituals of enactment or sympathetic magical cycles. For example, if a king takes the guise of Ausar (Osiris) then his wife takes the guise of Asat (Isis). Usually when this happens the king or queen is not seen with the deity they are supposed to be portraying though in the picture Het-her and Nefertari are not only together but they have different facial features.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^ Actually it is not the same woman. The mural above portrays the goddess Het-her guiding the queen Nefertari wife of Ramesiu II.

By the way, the brown paint of Nefertari is faded if you do an images search on Nefertari's tomb you can see images where only traces of the brown coloring is left on her cheeks, neck, hands, and feet.

As I explained earlier, certain colors in Egyptian art are symbolic. The most common type is the yellow color of women.

nefertari is dressed like Het-Her

Ancient Egyptians dressed like the gods to represent the gods in their tombs

Ancient Egyptians did not really believe gods had a human form

Ancient Egyptians represent gods the same way people represent the sun

 -
^^^ the sun obviously is not human but this child gave the sun a personality to explain its function
(the Egyptian gods are similar in this respect)

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Egyptian royals i.e. kings and queens dressed up as deities as part of rituals of enactment or sympathetic magical cycles. For example, if a king takes the guise of Ausar (Osiris) then his wife takes the guise of Asat (Isis). Usually when this happens the king or queen is not seen with the deity they are supposed to be portraying though in the picture Het-her and Nefertari are not only together but they have different facial features.

You are both right of course. The AE did not view their deities as literal "humans". They viewed them as aspects of Nature, in fact there is a lot of good evidence that the word nature derives from "Netjer". You can see this in the writings of the Romans and the Greeks like Cicero:

quote:

And yet you were abusing those who, judging from results so magnificent and glorious, when they looked upon the universe itself, and upon its parts, the sky, the lands, and the seas, and upon their ornaments, the sun, the moon, and the stars, and when they marked the maturing of the seasons, and their changes and alternations, conceived the existence of a sublime, exalted power that had created these things, and moved, and controlled, and directed them. Even though they stray from the path of true conjecture, still I can understand what principles they follow; but you—come, what great and notable work, with the appearance of having been produced by divine intelligence, can you point to as a foundation for your belief[63]in the existence of the gods? “I had,” you say, “a kind of preconception of God implanted in my mind.” Yes, and of a bearded Jupiter, and helmeted Minerva, but do you then suppose that they answer to that description? How much better this question is treated by the ignorant multitude, who not only assign human limbs to God, but a use for those limbs as well, for they provide bow, arrows, spear, shield, trident, and thunderbolt, and if their vision does not extend to the actions of the gods, at any rate they cannot conceive of God as inactive. Even the much ridiculed Egyptians never deified an animal except with reference to some benefit which they derived from it. For instance, the ibis, being a tall bird, with legs that do not bend, and a long beak of horn, destroys a vast number of serpents; in killing and eating the winged snakes that are brought in by the south-west wind from the Libyan desert, it preserves Egypt from plague, the snakes being thus prevented from causing harm by their bite when living, or by their smell when dead. I could speak of services rendered by the ichneumenon, the crocodile, and the cat, but I do not wish to be lengthy, and will conclude by saying that it was at least in return for benefits that animals were deified by the barbarians, whereas on the part of your gods there not only exists no beneficent action, but not even action of any kind. God has nothing to do, says Epicurus, thinking, we must suppose, like a spoilt child that there is nothing better than idleness.

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/cicero-on-the-nature-of-the-gods

The AE were symbolizing the "essence" of nature in their art by trying to portray the many various attributes and philosophical or cosmological concepts associated with those attributes over time in a complex symbolic canon. So literally they saw nature itself as divine in essence and a literal reflection of the divine force in nature. Likewise, the pharaoh when "born again of the gods" upon ascending to the throne, became symbolically a force of nature and living manifestation of Maat and various Netjer or "natural forces" guiding the fate and destiny of the nation.

Of course the later Romans and Greeks tried to pretend that they somehow had "superior" understanding of nature even though most of their ideas on divinity and nature come from the same source. Hence the many Roman temples to Isis and Horus in Egypt built during Roman rule which eventually became part of the basis of Jesus and Mary in Christianity.... Both of which symbolizing the nature of femininity in childbirth and the continuation of life through sexual reproduction as part of biological chemistry (alchemy) unions of opposites/souls/essences.... And in many ways some of the symbolism of Egyptian art was basically a textbook on biology and chemistry in a higher form of symbolic language, where the priests embedded many concepts and meanings on multiple layers to be imparted to students of the mdu neter as "gods words", meaning god speaks through nature symbolically. You see this a lot in the Abrahamic religions in the signs, visions and dreams of the prophets (Ezekiel's wheel, the burning bush and so forth).

The Mdu Neter emerged from thousands of years of human conscious evolution in Africa, where humans saw nature itself as a powerful force in their lives long before they had language to describe it. As time went on these forces remained a powerful force within the human psyche and it became the easiest way to communicate meaning by invoking symbolic forms of natural objects, which eventually became formalized as Mdu Netjer. That is why Punt is called "Ta Netjer" as the "home of the gods" and origin of human creation as the "force of nature" that created humans through biological and chemical processes.

Another aspect of modern religion that borrows from this ancient system is gnosticism.
quote:

his is a reflection of the Gnostic concept of the Logos ("Word"). The Logos is the Christos ("Anointed One")- the Divine Spirit of Redemption that existed long before the birth of Jesus. It was with God at the very beginning, and was in fact the very Word with which all was created. (See Genesis I: "And God said...") It is self-created, and is equated with both the Consciousness of God and the consciousness within mankind.

The concept descends quite directly from ancient Egyptian views of the God Djehuti (Thoth)- who was Himself the self-created Word of Re. Thoth stood as the redeemer between the human realm and the Divine, often shown in mythology as coming to the rescue of those in need. He was also credited with the creation of all things- as the active creative power of Re. To the later Gnostics, the Christos was a force to which all adepts must aspire. We witness the descent of the Logos into the body of Jesus at his baptism in the Gospel of Mark- and here we see another starkly Egyptian influence:

And straightway coming up out of the water, [John] saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon [Jesus]: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

These lines echo the Egyptian myth of the birth of Osiris, which was accompanied by the Voice of Re from the heavens, proclaiming the birth of His Son and heir. In the Gnostic teaching, Jesus Christ then set out to teach all aspiring adepts how to make their own personal contacts with the Logos. The mysteries of exactly how to do this formed the backbone of Gnostic religion.

Unfortunately, space prohibits further discussion here. In the future, I hope to expand upon this overview- explaining the particular religious beliefs and sacred mythos of the Gnostics, the peculiar relationship that existed between their literature and that of the Jewish people, and the Gnostic influence on the rest of Western spirituality. Until then, I wish you LVX.

http://gnosticcross.tripod.com/archive/2001_08_5gnosticorigins.html

The main part of Gnosticism coming from Egypt being the able to "see" the works of god and experiencing the divine through contemplating the "nature of" nature/the universe (supernatural/cause of causes/cosmology/philosophy/esoteric/cognitive science/meditation/inner contemplation).

Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

 -


Here are some Egyptian myths

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/section-myths.htm

^ are these myths all describing things about nature ?
Are these all teaching tools to describe science about the sun, wind, rain and so on?

Did the Egyptians have a word for nature?

What does "nature" mean? anything man did not do?

Did Africans/Egyptians believe that man could communicate with the forces of nature through prayers and magic and temples?

Or did they believe that these things had no impact on the forces of nature, that these things were just symbols used for description purposes only

Were the Egyptians atheists ?

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The purpose of the symbolism in Egyptian art was to express understanding of how the universe worked through observing nature. Humans have been observing nature since the very beginning, but only slowly did they evolve the ability to communicate complex ideas using language. Symbolic language is the root of all language, as it is a bridge between the object being described: "the thing itself" and the meta principle behind the thing itself or the archetype and "idea" behind the thing (retrieved from the brains memory of the experience of said thing). Mdu Neter is the blending of both where the symbol represents both the object itself cognitively and other ideas and concepts behind the object as a way of communicating abstract concepts "about" things and how they came to be. Some of those more abstract concepts are things like the nurturing principle (motherliness, feminine principle), the warrior principle and vigilance (the protector, male principle) and so forth. The complete cosmology of the AE was a comprehensive collection of many ideas and concepts about the Universe and how everything in it came to be and not simply a religion. It was religion, science, math and philosophy all in one. Because as the AE saw it everything was part of "one truth", one emanation and one whole creation and a reflection of a greater force at work which most call "God". Only later did folks like the Greeks begin to separate out various elements of nature and the universe into discrete separate disciplines, even though most of their works clearly still tied all these things together in many ways. Also keep in mind that the human brain is designed and hard wired to interpret meaning from physical stimuli like visual information and sensory information. Hence interpreting symbols and attaching meaning to them are all an aspect of how the brain works and communicates meaning.

It is quite similar to how Aristotle wrote "Metaphysics" which means "about nature/physical reality" or the principles above and behind the nature of the physical world we see every day (again which come from observation and understanding of nature itself), with "God" as the grand archetype of the first cause and force behind it all. This is no different than what was revealed within the Egyptian system of symbolic language.

So if you want to talk about philosophy within the AE language you have to talk in terms of Ptah and Djehuti which represent "the word" (communication, thinking and writing) and Djehuti (wisdom, intelligence, rationality and planning). Of course that is simply one example but of course there is much more than that.

quote:

Ptah (Pteh, Peteh) was one of the triad of Memphis along with Sekhmet (or Bast) and Nefertum. When Memphis became the capital of Egypt, Ptah became the ultimate creator who made everything including the gods of the Ogdoad of Hermopolis and the Ennead of Heliopolis and was given the epithet "He who set all the gods in their places and gave all things the breath of life". Ptah was worshipped throughout all of Egypt, but his primary cult centres were in Memphis and Heliopolis. He was so popular in Egypt that it is said that the name "Egypt" itself derives from a Greek spelling of the name of a temple in Memphis; "Hwt-kA-ptH", which means "the temple of the Ka of Ptah".

He is often described as an abstract form of the "Self-Created One", who made the universe either by the wish of his heart (sometimes associated with Hathor or Horus) and by his tongue (or speech, identified with Thoth and Tefnut). Alternatively, you could argue that he was more directly in control of creation than either Ra or Atum). He was the patron of sculptors, painters, builders and carpenters, and other craftsmen and was thought to have invented masonry.

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/ptah.html

In just that one passage, Hathor represents "birth" or feminine aspects of creation as in the Universe itself is the "mother" of all creation because all creation is manifest in the "womb" of the physical universe. Horus is the "sun" and one of the stars born in the Milky Way (cow reference) of Hathor the mother womb of creation. Thoth is the manifestation of "the logos" or ideas and concepts in time and space, which are manifested in the womb of Hathor and given form by Atum, through the power of chemistry and ATOMS. Or you could say that the "first spark" or "first cause" or "first chemical reaction" is symbolized by Ra the first child of Hathor/Ptah symbolizing the manifestation of "the word" (ideas, archetypes) in the physical universe at the "first time". Ra and Atum-Ra symbolize this as act of creation during "the first time" or before the universe was born which given the infinite span of time and space is a theoretical concept above physical nature. Generally the male deities in the AE system were organized in a trinity with a pair of opposites (male and female) and a child. The male generally symbolizes the hidden "urge" or force behind creation or hidden seed within creation (Amun, self masturbation,Osiris/Khem/Carbon/Chemistry/carbon based life/black substance). And the feminine represents childbirth, bringing the urge or essence into existence and nurturing that essence (Mother nature).

From book one of Aristotle's meta physics talking of man's "experience of nature" and the ability to reproduce it in art (and thereby communicate meaning). This is nothing more than what the AE were doing symbolically in Mdu Neter and their art. Note even in the first two sentences he refers to human sight which the AE symbolized as the "Eye of Horus", which means the ability to discern and understand and memory on a basic level but on a higher level means "awakened conscious" (understanding experience of the nature of the universe/self/creation) mind within man, combining both the experiences received by DAY and those received by night, into the experience of ALL or "the one creation". And then he goes on to talk about craftsmen/artists as teachers, which is nothing more than what is seen in the concept of Ptah as deity of craftsmen, not only in their ability to create from ideas but their ability to communicate understanding through art and craft.

quote:

"ALL men by nature desire to know. An indication of this is the delight we take in our senses; for even apart from their usefulness they are loved for themselves; and above all others the sense of sight. For not only with a view to action, but even when we are not going to do anything, we prefer seeing (one might say) to everything else. The reason is that this, most of all the senses, makes us know and brings to light many differences between things.

"By nature animals are born with the faculty of sensation, and from sensation memory is produced in some of them, though not in others. And therefore the former are more intelligent and apt at learning than those which cannot remember; those which are incapable of hearing sounds are intelligent though they cannot be taught, e.g. the bee, and any other race of animals that may be like it; and those which besides memory have this sense of hearing can be taught.

"The animals other than man live by appearances and memories, and have but little of connected experience; but the human race lives also by art and reasonings. Now from memory experience is produced in men; for the several memories of the same thing produce finally the capacity for a single experience. And experience seems pretty much like science and art, but really science and art come to men through experience; for 'experience made art', as Polus says, 'but inexperience luck.' Now art arises when from many notions gained by experience one universal judgement about a class of objects is produced. For to have a judgement that when Callias was ill of this disease this did him good, and similarly in the case of Socrates and in many individual cases, is a matter of experience; but to judge that it has done good to all persons of a certain constitution, marked off in one class, when they were ill of this disease, e.g. to phlegmatic or bilious people when burning with fevers-this is a matter of art.

"With a view to action experience seems in no respect inferior to art, and men of experience succeed even better than those who have theory without experience. (The reason is that experience is knowledge of individuals, art of universals, and actions and productions are all concerned with the individual; for the physician does not cure man, except in an incidental way, but Callias or Socrates or some other called by some such individual name, who happens to be a man. If, then, a man has the theory without the experience, and recognizes the universal but does not know the individual included in this, he will often fail to cure; for it is the individual that is to be cured.) But yet we think that knowledge and understanding belong to art rather than to experience, and we suppose artists to be wiser than men of experience (which implies that Wisdom depends in all cases rather on knowledge); and this because the former know the cause, but the latter do not. For men of experience know that the thing is so, but do not know why, while the others know the 'why' and the cause. Hence we think also that the masterworkers in each craft are more honourable and know in a truer sense and are wiser than the manual workers, because they know the causes of the things that are done (we think the manual workers are like certain lifeless things which act indeed, but act without knowing what they do, as fire burns,-but while the lifeless things perform each of their functions by a natural tendency, the labourers perform them through habit); thus we view them as being wiser not in virtue of being able to act, but of having the theory for themselves and knowing the causes. And in general it is a sign of the man who knows and of the man who does not know, that the former can teach, and therefore we think art more truly knowledge than experience is; for artists can teach, and men of mere experience cannot.


"Again, we do not regard any of the senses as Wisdom; yet surely these give the most authoritative knowledge of particulars. But they do not tell us the 'why' of anything-e.g. why fire is hot; they only say that it is hot.

"At first he who invented any art whatever that went beyond the common perceptions of man was naturally admired by men, not only because there was something useful in the inventions, but because he was thought wise and superior to the rest. But as more arts were invented, and some were directed to the necessities of life, others to recreation, the inventors of the latter were naturally always regarded as wiser than the inventors of the former, because their branches of knowledge did not aim at utility. Hence when all such inventions were already established, the sciences which do not aim at giving pleasure or at the necessities of life were discovered, and first in the places where men first began to have leisure. This is why the mathematical arts were founded in Egypt; for there the priestly caste was allowed to be at leisure.

"We have said in the Ethics what the difference is between art and science and the other kindred faculties; but the point of our present discussion is this, that all men suppose what is called Wisdom to deal with the first causes and the principles of things; so that, as has been said before, the man of experience is thought to be wiser than the possessors of any sense-perception whatever, the artist wiser than the men of experience, the masterworker than the mechanic, and the theoretical kinds of knowledge to be more of the nature of Wisdom than the productive. Clearly then Wisdom is knowledge about certain principles and causes.

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/metaphysics.1.i.html
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
premodern societies have no word for nature
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Netjer or Neter is the root of the word Nature IMO. In the AE language Netjer meant "divinity" or "God" and Mdu Neter meant "gods word" as reflected through symbolic forms from NATURE. In AE cosmology "nature" is the essence of divinity itself or a reflection of divinity at work in the universe. It is quite similar to how Eastern philosophy works concerning how everything is connected as part of one "whole". This is also a fundamental aspect of gnosticism. In fact, in esoteric Christianity Jesus Christ as the logos symbolizes the same exact thing. Where the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost are basically another way of saying that "the Father" is the ultimate unseen creative force, working through the "Holy Spirit" that manifests itself through "the Logos" or "the Word" which is the physical substance of the Universe or physical creation.

quote:

"There is little similarity, equally, between the way the Egyptians and the Sumerians visualized and personified their gods. Sumerian divinities were essentially human in appearance, and their attributes and their behaviour were merely the characteristics of humankind written large. The Egyptian gods were a great deal more complex and diverse. It appears that the earliest divinities were abstractions, represented by objects which had acquired a special sanctity. The most ancient sign for 'god', netjer, is abstract ; it is thought that it represents 'a staff bound with cloth'". - Rice, 2003, p.50.

There is hardly any Egyptian text or inscription that does not at least mention one or more of the gods. For Herodotus, the Egyptians were religious "to excess" (History, II, 37). But in the fifth century BCE, the Greeks, who were the first to master rational thought, had already separated religion from other spheres of daily human existence, such as government, social behaviors, intellectual goals etc. In Pharaonic Egypt, such a separation did not exist. In the ante-rational mind, all facets of life were interrelated. Abstract divisions were not in effect, for the universe was alife and a rhythmic movement contained within an unchanging totality. Nevertheless, the Egyptians recognized the difference between natural forces and cultural (human) behavior, but both were ruled by superhuman powers.7

"... the immanence of the gods in nature, far from diminishing their significance for the Egyptians, enabled a correlation of human and natural life which was an inexhaustible source of strength. The life of man, as an individual and even more as a member of society, was integrated with the life of nature ..." - Frankfort, 1948, p.29.

Impersonal natural elements and forces were used by the Egyptians to project the wills and actions of superbeings : the deities, a company of gods & goddesses. Invoked as a plural ("nTrw"), all divine beings were intended, but the singular form ("nTr") was also in effect. These superpowers were interrelated, and immanent in the phenomena of nature. They were these elements & forces. Each recognizable force corresponded to a deity, and the connotative semantic field of each god or goddess, reflected the archetypal symbols expressed in prayers, songs, dances, hymns & ceremonies, invoking natural and cultural phenomena.

http://www.sofiatopia.org/maat/netjer.htm

So again in seeing nature as a symbol of Gods existence in the Universe, the first language of "NATURE" is seen as "Gods WORD" from which written language was created which was symbolic in form based on nature as a result of thousands of years of evolution in Africa.

Keep in mind that the brain is a natural organ emanating from biological evolution and its fundamental ability to think abstractly and SYMBOLICALLY (which is the basis of creativity) is a very important aspect of the human species. All of those faculties come from nature itself, including concepts of the mind and consciousness. Trying to separate the human mind and its faculties from nature and the universe is part of the failing of "Western" science starting with the Greeks who fumbled around with concepts they saw in Egypt and other societies for years as the basis of their "rational" philosophy. But even within that there was still a tremendous amount of symbolism within their work and most of it was nothing more than a rehashing of what came before in a way that other folks could understand.

Speaking of Symbolism in art, many modern artists use the same symbols....

 -
"The Magician" by Rian Hughes....

And some books magazines go on this to great detail....

http://www.heavymetal.com/news/14-page-preview-of-heavy-metal-286-the-magick-special/

Comics are a great source of symbolism and there are more than a few who get into it.

 -

Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Netjer or Neter is the root of the word Nature IMO.

Ntr is not the root word of Nature


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

In the AE language Netjer meant "divinity" or "God" and Mdu Neter meant "gods word" as reflected through symbolic forms from NATURE.

symbols of nature


 -


Egyptian deities

 -

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
premodern societies have no word for nature

Modern societies have no word for "nature" because the word "nature" simply means god.

Coming from ancient Egyptian word neter
"the word (neter) completely covers the original meaning of the ... latin Natura" pg Ixxxiii E.A Wallis Budge The Egyptian book of the dead

the concept of god is about explaining the forces of nature rather it be seen or un-seen

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Modern societies have no word for "nature" because the word "nature" simply means god.


please make sense
You just typed the word "nature" and you live in a modern society

that means modern societies do have a word for nature and it does not mean god.

In fact the word was invented to make a separation between the material world and the spiritual world

________________________________

nature
[ney-cher]

noun
1.
the material world, especially as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.
2.
the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization:
In nature, wild dogs hunt in packs.
3.
the elements of the natural world, as mountains, trees, animals, or rivers:
The abandoned power plant was reclaimed by nature, covered in overgrowth and home to feral animals.

________________________________________________

god
noun

1. a supreme being who created, rules and watches over the universe

2. an intelligent and powerful being who rules over a natural force or animal


_________________________________________


therefore an atheist could acknowledge nature forces such as gravity, wind, earthquakes but not attribute them god.
If someone was struck dead by a bolt of lightening and theist would say it was a random natural event. A religious person might say that it was a personal judgement made on that person by a god

Here is a list of some Egyptians myths. Is each one just intended as a make believe teaching tool demonstrating natural science?

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/section-myths.htm


.

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:


Genres > Environment >
Nature
Nature, in the broadest sense, is equivalent to the natural world, physical world, or material world. "Nature" refers to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. It ranges in scale from the subatomic to the cosmic.

The word nature is derived from the Latin word natura, or "essential qualities, innate disposition", and in ancient times, literally meant "birth". Natura was a Latin translation of the Greek word physis (φύσις), which originally related to the intrinsic characteristics that plants, animals, and other features of the world develop of their own accord. The concept of nature as a whole, the physical universe, is one of several expansions of the original notion; it began with certain core applications of the word φύσις by pre-Socratic philosophers, and has steadily gained currency ever since. This usage was confirmed during the advent of modern scientific method in the last several centuries.

Within the various uses of the word today, "nature" often refers to geology and wildlife. Nature may refer to the general realm of various types of living plants and animals, and in some cases to the processes associated with inanimate objects – the way that particular types of things exist and change of their own accord, such as the weather and geology of the Earth, and the matter and energy of which all these things are composed. It is often taken to mean the "natural environment" or wilderness–wild animals, rocks, forest, beaches, and in general those things that have not been substantially altered by human intervention, or which persist despite human intervention. For example, manufactured objects and human interaction generally are not considered part of nature, unless qualified as, for example, "human nature" or "the whole of nature". This more traditional concept of natural things which can still be found today implies a distinction between the natural and the artificial, with the artificial being understood as that which has been brought into being by a human consciousness or a human mind. Depending on the particular context, the term "natural" might also be distinguished from the unnatural, the supernatural, or synthetic.

Nature writing is generally defined as nonfiction prose writing about the natural environment. Nature writing often draws heavily on scientific information and facts about the natural world; at the same time, it is frequently written in the first person and incorporates personal observations of and philosophical reflections upon nature

https://www.goodreads.com/genres/nature

quote:

In Plato's Laws

"Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turns out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise."

- Plato's Laws, Book 10(892c) - translation by Benjamin Jowett

Aristotle

Aristotle sought out the definition of "physis" to prove that there was more than one definition of "physis", and more than one way to interpret nature. "Though Aristotle retains the ancient sense of "physis" as growth, he insists that an adequate definition of "physis" requires the different perspectives of the four causes (aitia): material, efficient, formal, and final."[1] Aristotle believed that nature itself contained its own source of matter (material), power/motion (efficiency), form, and end (final). A unique feature about Aristotle's definition of "physis" was his relationship between art and nature. Aristotle said that "physis" (nature) is dependent on techne (art). "The critical distinction between art and nature concerns their different efficient causes: nature is its own source of motion, whereas techne always requires a source of motion outside itself."[1] What Aristotle was trying to bring to light, was that art does not contain within itself its form or source of motion. Consider the process of an acorn becoming an oak tree. This is a natural process that has its own driving force behind it. There is no external force pushing this acorn to its final state, rather it is progressively developing towards one specific end (telos).
Classical usage

Homer uses the word physis just once – in the Odyssey, referring to the intrinsic way of growth of a particular species of plant.[2] This is its earliest known occurrence.

Philosophical use begins very early in pre-Socratic writings, where the meanings fit well with current senses of the English word nature. In the Sophist tradition, the term stood in opposition to nomos (νόμος), "law" or "custom", in the debate on which parts of human existence are natural, and which are due to convention. This is the basis of today's classic biological debate of "nature vs. nurture". nomos would refer to "nurture", and physis would correlate to "nature". The Greeks believed "physis" and "nomos" correlated to many aspects of science and philosophy, such as the gender debate. The Greeks would refer to law, order, and rationalism as "nomos". "Women in general tend to be (in the view of Greek man) on the side of physis, while men are generally on the side of nomos: men can control themselves while women become hysterical (the word is Greek and it means to be taken over by your uterus). Men make and obey laws, but women do what comes naturally (see Phaedra or Medea)."nomos could also refer to the practices of mathematics, music, and architecture, which all follow strict sets of rules and attempt to order nature (see "nomos"). "Architecture brings space under control, music brings noise under control, and mathematics brings the infinite under control. For this reason, Greek men liked all three of these arts very much."

Biblical Usage

Though φύσις was often used in Hellenistic philosopy, it is used only 14 times in the New Testament (10 of those in the writings of Paul.) Its meaning varies throughout Paul's writings. One usage refers to the established or natural order of things, as in Romans 2:14 where Paul writes "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law." Another use of φύσις in the sense of "natural order" is Romans 1:26 where he writes "the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another." In 1 Corinthians 11:14, Paul asks "Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him.

This use of φύσις as referring to a "natural order" in Romans 1:26 and 1 Corinthians 11:14 may have been influenced by Stoicism. The Greek philosophers, including Aristotle and the Stoics are credited with distinguishing between man-made laws and a natural law of universal validity,[16] but Gerhard Kittel states that the Stoic philosophers were not able to combine the concepts of νόμος (law) and φύσις (nature) to produce the concept of "natural law" in the sense that was made possible by Judeo-Christian theology.

As part of the Pauline theology of salvation by grace, Paul writes in Ephesians 2:3 that "we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. In the next verse he writes, "by grace you have been saved."
Usage in patristic theology

Theologians of the early Christian period differed in the usage of this term. In Antiochene circles, it connoted the humanity or divinity of Christ conceived as a concrete set of characteristics or attributes. In Alexandrine thinking, it meant a concrete individual or independent existent and approximated to hypostasis without being a synonym. While it refers to much the same thing as ousia it is more empirical and descriptive focussing on function while ousia is metaphysical and focuses more on reality. Although found in the context of the Trinitarian debate, it is chiefly important in the Christology of Cyril of Alexandria.
Modern usage

"Physis" is commonly referred to as nature. Back in the Sophists' time, the word "physics" (the study of nature) was derived from "physis" by Aristotle, which is where we got the field of physics today. The etymology of the word "physical" shows its use as a synonym for "natural" in about the mid-15th century. In medicine the element -physis occurs in such compounds as symphysis, epiphysis, and a few others, in the sense of a growing. The physis also refers to the "growth plate", or site of growth at the end of long bones.
The Change of the Word "Physis"
Since Aristotle, the physical (the subject matter of physics, properly τὰ φυσικά "natural things") has often been contrasted with metaphysical (the subject of metaphysics). "Physis, translated since the Third Century B.C. usually as "nature" and less frequently as "essence", means one thing for the presocratic philosophers and quite another thing for Plato." Physis is a great example of a keyword that was very important in classical rhetoric and helped define Greek language, but over time was modified through culture changes into a related, but new word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physis

All of this stems from the ancient observation and understanding of nature (as in the natural world).

Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
show me a translation of an ancient Egyptian text where a word is translated as "nature"

Otherwise you have no evidence that the Egyptians had a word for it.

It is a modern concept that people are separate from nature

So a bee hive is natural but a house is not?

"nature" is a bogus concept.

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thereal
Member
Member # 22452

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Thereal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A house could be nature depending on how it constructed and other natural elements that interacts with it.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Modern societies have no word for "nature" because the word "nature" simply means god.


please make sense
You just typed the word "nature" and you live in a modern society

that means modern societies do have a word for nature and it does not mean god.

In fact the word was invented to make a separation between the material world and the spiritual world

________________________________

nature
[ney-cher]

noun
1.
the material world, especially as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.
2.
the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization:
In nature, wild dogs hunt in packs.
3.
the elements of the natural world, as mountains, trees, animals, or rivers:
The abandoned power plant was reclaimed by nature, covered in overgrowth and home to feral animals.

________________________________________________

god
noun

1. a supreme being who created, rules and watches over the universe

2. an intelligent and powerful being who rules over a natural force or animal


_________________________________________


therefore an atheist could acknowledge nature forces such as gravity, wind, earthquakes but not attribute them god.
If someone was struck dead by a bolt of lightening and theist would say it was a random natural event. A religious person might say that it was a personal judgement made on that person by a god

Here is a list of some Egyptians myths. Is each one just intended as a make believe teaching tool demonstrating natural science?

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/section-myths.htm


.

Again Modern societies still have no word for "nature" because the word "nature" simply means god.

unless you can prove through another etymology your argument is debunked

you need to find a different word besides "Nature" to prove your point

Another fun fact
ancient societies have no word for "god"

Deus actually means "celestial" or "shining" not god

Neter means renovation

so this goes to show you that actually Greece and Egypt had no concept of god based on the etymology of the word for god

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
show me a translation of an ancient Egyptian text where a word is translated as "nature"

Otherwise you have no evidence that the Egyptians had a word for it.

It is a modern concept that people are separate from nature

So a bee hive is natural but a house is not?

"nature" is a bogus concept.

God is a bogus concept

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Modern societies have no word for "nature" because the word "nature" simply means god.


please make sense
You just typed the word "nature" and you live in a modern society

that means modern societies do have a word for nature and it does not mean god.

In fact the word was invented to make a separation between the material world and the spiritual world

________________________________

nature
[ney-cher]

noun
1.
the material world, especially as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.
2.
the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization:
In nature, wild dogs hunt in packs.
3.
the elements of the natural world, as mountains, trees, animals, or rivers:
The abandoned power plant was reclaimed by nature, covered in overgrowth and home to feral animals.

________________________________________________

god
noun

1. a supreme being who created, rules and watches over the universe

2. an intelligent and powerful being who rules over a natural force or animal


_________________________________________


therefore an atheist could acknowledge nature forces such as gravity, wind, earthquakes but not attribute them god.
If someone was struck dead by a bolt of lightening and theist would say it was a random natural event. A religious person might say that it was a personal judgement made on that person by a god

Here is a list of some Egyptians myths. Is each one just intended as a make believe teaching tool demonstrating natural science?

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/section-myths.htm


.

Again Modern societies still have no word for "nature" because the word "nature" simply means god.

unless you can prove through another etymology your argument is debunked

you need to find a different word besides "Nature" to prove your point

Another fun fact
ancient societies have no word for "god"

Deus actually means "celestial" or "shining" not god

Neter means renovation

so this goes to show you that actually Greece and Egypt had no concept of god based on the etymology of the word for god

Mdu Ntr means the word of god or "gods essence" or "gods creation" which = nature. All of the various deities in AE are called Ntru or "forces of nature" or "emanations of the divine". What is meant is not that Air blowing is god or rain falling, what it means is that the CONCEPT of air and the CONCEPT of water as building blocks of the universe and the chemical reactions within nature all come from a higher power or creative force that put everything in motion and in reality EVERYTHING is gods essence including human nature. The Neteru are simply the "children" of the ultimate creative force as manifestations in the physical universe of the ultimate creative and organizing principle behind all physical existence. Nature is the essence or manifestation of gods will. Egyptian art and Mdu Ntr are a symbolic form of "gods essence" or "nature" where they try and convey this understanding of nature = manifestation of gods will. Likewise, the Pharaoh upon being crowned became "born of the gods" and hence the living representative of the god or "divine" or 'deity' or divine forces in the flesh as a ntr and living representative of Maat. This is the origin of the immaculate conception in Christianity.

There are numerous references to this in various books of Egyptologists.

https://books.google.com/books?id=IlNsbYhGhHsC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=ntr+gardiner&source=bl&ots=XEgamdLzPC&sig=-SRzrxPJ3Y4aaxRlsnJCGj0wpyE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilsND89o3WAhVGPiYKHT2 4ARQQ6AEIMzAB#v=onepage&q=ntr%20gardiner&f=false

Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

Nature is the essence or manifestation of gods will


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

What is meant is not that Air blowing is god or rain falling, what it means is that the CONCEPT of air and the CONCEPT of water as building blocks of the universe and the chemical reactions within nature all come from a higher power or creative force that put everything in motion and in reality EVERYTHING is gods essence including human nature.


These are contradictory statements. Saying nature is the essence or manifestation of gods will means that rain, earthquakes, sunshine, wind are willed by an intelligent being called god.

So it is a contradiction to then say ntr is a "CONCEPT"

Having a concept of wind is not the same as controlling the wind


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

Mdu Ntr means the word of god or "gods essence" or "gods creation" which = nature. All of the various deities in AE are called Ntru or "forces of nature" or "emanations of the divine". What is meant is not that Air blowing is god or rain falling, what it means is that the CONCEPT of air and the CONCEPT of water as building blocks of the universe and the chemical reactions within nature all come from a higher power or creative force that put everything in motion and in reality EVERYTHING is gods essence including human nature. The Neteru are simply the "children" of the ultimate creative force as manifestations in the physical universe of the ultimate creative and organizing principle behind all physical existence. Nature is the essence or manifestation of gods will. Egyptian art and Mdu Ntr are a symbolic form of "gods essence" or "nature" where they try and convey this understanding of nature = manifestation of gods will. Likewise, the Pharaoh upon being crowned became "born of the gods" and hence the living representative of the god or "divine" or 'deity' or divine forces in the flesh as a ntr and living representative of Maat. This is the origin of the immaculate conception in Christianity.

There are numerous references to this in various books of Egyptologists.

https://books.google.com/books?id=IlNsbYhGhHsC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=ntr+gardiner&source=bl&ots=XEgamdLzPC&sig=-SRzrxPJ3Y4aaxRlsnJCGj0wpyE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilsND89o3WAhVGPiYKHT2 4ARQQ6AEIMzAB#v=onepage&q=ntr%20gardiner&f=false

 -
The Writing of Gods: The Evolution of Divine Classifiers in the Old Kingdom
By Racheli Shalomi-Hen



Your reference does not support your statement. The reference says ntr means king or dead king "great god" and goes on to mention king Khafre, Menkaure and other kings and also may refer to Osiris. It does not talk about nature and I have read several pages more
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
Modern societies have no word for "nature" because the word "nature" simply means god.


please make sense
You just typed the word "nature" and you live in a modern society

that means modern societies do have a word for nature and it does not mean god.

In fact the word was invented to make a separation between the material world and the spiritual world

________________________________

nature
[ney-cher]

noun
1.
the material world, especially as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.
2.
the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization:
In nature, wild dogs hunt in packs.
3.
the elements of the natural world, as mountains, trees, animals, or rivers:
The abandoned power plant was reclaimed by nature, covered in overgrowth and home to feral animals.

________________________________________________

god
noun

1. a supreme being who created, rules and watches over the universe

2. an intelligent and powerful being who rules over a natural force or animal


_________________________________________


therefore an atheist could acknowledge nature forces such as gravity, wind, earthquakes but not attribute them god.
If someone was struck dead by a bolt of lightening and theist would say it was a random natural event. A religious person might say that it was a personal judgement made on that person by a god

Here is a list of some Egyptians myths. Is each one just intended as a make believe teaching tool demonstrating natural science?

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/section-myths.htm


.

Again Modern societies still have no word for "nature" because the word "nature" simply means god.

unless you can prove through another etymology your argument is debunked

you need to find a different word besides "Nature" to prove your point

Another fun fact
ancient societies have no word for "god"

Deus actually means "celestial" or "shining" not god

Neter means renovation

so this goes to show you that actually Greece and Egypt had no concept of god based on the etymology of the word for god

Mdu Ntr means the word of god or "gods essence" or "gods creation" which = nature. All of the various deities in AE are called Ntru or "forces of nature" or "emanations of the divine". What is meant is not that Air blowing is god or rain falling, what it means is that the CONCEPT of air and the CONCEPT of water as building blocks of the universe and the chemical reactions within nature all come from a higher power or creative force that put everything in motion and in reality EVERYTHING is gods essence including human nature. The Neteru are simply the "children" of the ultimate creative force as manifestations in the physical universe of the ultimate creative and organizing principle behind all physical existence. Nature is the essence or manifestation of gods will. Egyptian art and Mdu Ntr are a symbolic form of "gods essence" or "nature" where they try and convey this understanding of nature = manifestation of gods will. Likewise, the Pharaoh upon being crowned became "born of the gods" and hence the living representative of the god or "divine" or 'deity' or divine forces in the flesh as a ntr and living representative of Maat. This is the origin of the immaculate conception in Christianity.

There are numerous references to this in various books of Egyptologists.

https://books.google.com/books?id=IlNsbYhGhHsC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=ntr+gardiner&source=bl&ots=XEgamdLzPC&sig=-SRzrxPJ3Y4aaxRlsnJCGj0wpyE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilsND89o3WAhVGPiYKHT2 4ARQQ6AEIMzAB#v=onepage&q=ntr%20gardiner&f=false

Show me an Ancient Egyptian dictionary written by an Ancient Egyptian that supports your theory

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the questioner
Member
Member # 22195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the questioner     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

Nature is the essence or manifestation of gods will


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

What is meant is not that Air blowing is god or rain falling, what it means is that the CONCEPT of air and the CONCEPT of water as building blocks of the universe and the chemical reactions within nature all come from a higher power or creative force that put everything in motion and in reality EVERYTHING is gods essence including human nature.


These are contradictory statements. Saying nature is the essence or manifestation of gods will means that rain, earthquakes, sunshine, wind are willed by an intelligent being called god.

So it is a contradiction to then say ntr is a "CONCEPT"

Having a concept of wind is not the same as controlling the wind


quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

Mdu Ntr means the word of god or "gods essence" or "gods creation" which = nature. All of the various deities in AE are called Ntru or "forces of nature" or "emanations of the divine". What is meant is not that Air blowing is god or rain falling, what it means is that the CONCEPT of air and the CONCEPT of water as building blocks of the universe and the chemical reactions within nature all come from a higher power or creative force that put everything in motion and in reality EVERYTHING is gods essence including human nature. The Neteru are simply the "children" of the ultimate creative force as manifestations in the physical universe of the ultimate creative and organizing principle behind all physical existence. Nature is the essence or manifestation of gods will. Egyptian art and Mdu Ntr are a symbolic form of "gods essence" or "nature" where they try and convey this understanding of nature = manifestation of gods will. Likewise, the Pharaoh upon being crowned became "born of the gods" and hence the living representative of the god or "divine" or 'deity' or divine forces in the flesh as a ntr and living representative of Maat. This is the origin of the immaculate conception in Christianity.

There are numerous references to this in various books of Egyptologists.

https://books.google.com/books?id=IlNsbYhGhHsC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=ntr+gardiner&source=bl&ots=XEgamdLzPC&sig=-SRzrxPJ3Y4aaxRlsnJCGj0wpyE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilsND89o3WAhVGPiYKHT2 4ARQQ6AEIMzAB#v=onepage&q=ntr%20gardiner&f=false

 -
The Writing of Gods: The Evolution of Divine Classifiers in the Old Kingdom
By Racheli Shalomi-Hen



Your reference does not support your statement. The reference says ntr means king or dead king "great god" and goes on to mention king Khafre, Menkaure and other kings and also may refer to Osiris. It does not talk about nature and I have read several pages more

the origin of the Egyptian pantheon were in the natural world. Neter(singular masculine) or neteru (plural) is the name for the god(s) in the ancient egyptian language, words closely connected with our word nature. in the earliest version of the pantheon , there was a god of air, Shu, and a goddess for moisture, Tefnut. earth was represented by their son, Geb, who became a early depiction of the green man. his son Osiris inherited this designation and later became associated with the constellation Orion. Geb and his consort, nut, one version of the sky goddess, became parents of the later pantheon, those most familiar to us today.
https://books.google.com/books?id=HgpkYD5reBoC&pg=PR24&dq=word+nature+is+egyptian&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjH0ZCR15LWAhWJx4MKHU7PADwQ6AEIMjAC#v=onepage&q=word%20nature%20is%20egyptian &f=false

--------------------
Questions expose liars

Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Linda Fahr
Suspended
Member # 21979

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Linda Fahr   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The "Himba" tribe members still coloring their skin with red clay. It is an African ancient hygienic culture,to protect them from insect bites and skin diseases. However, not all African people applied red clay in their skin. Possible they used other methods such as herbs and oils. We must remember that many African people were pushed down into the Sub Sahara regions during several foreign invasions of Egypt and Nubia. Today, we can still see them performing their skin coloration, hair styles,and elongated skulls as they did during ancient Egypt and Nubia. Unfortunately, after hundred of generations living under oppression from foreign invaders, they forgot about their ancient civilizations and their ancient accomplishments.

--------------------
---lnnnnn*

Posts: 198 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BrandonP
Member
Member # 3735

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BrandonP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Another review of Marry Ann Eaverly's "Tan Men/Pale Women" book.

Review of Mary Ann Eaverly, Tan Men/Pale Women

He mentions several examples of dark colors being used for female figures in AE art, but doesn't seem to have a clear interpretation for what these conventions mean. He does point out that dark-colored female characters appear in New Kingdom art prior to the Amarna period.

--------------------
Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher

My art thread on ES

And my books thread

Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | EgyptSearch!

(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3