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Author Topic: Europeans have different Neolithic ancestry than South Asians
Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


I have seen nothing credible that supports them being Elamites rather than Persians

They appear to have sharp or sometimes Semitic looking noses, curly hair, no prognathous, very thin lips and dark skin

hard to pin down phenotypically

LOL. Ancient Persian was Elamite.

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Here is Cyrus

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C. A. Winters

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^ colored portraits of Elamites

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That said, linguists agree that Dravidian and Elamite are from two different language phyla however it's unclear to what extent the actual Elamite people were related to the Indus people.

Very well,


Royal City of Susa: Ancient Near Eastern Treasures in the Louvre
Harper, Prudence O., Joan Aruz, and Françoise Tallon, eds. (1992)

http://www.metmuseum.org/art/metpublications/Royal_City_of_Susa_Ancient_Near_Eastern_Treasures_in_the_Louvre

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


I have seen nothing credible that supports them being Elamites rather than Persians

They appear to have sharp or sometimes Semitic looking noses, curly hair, no prognathous, very thin lips and dark skin

hard to pin down phenotypically

LOL. Ancient Persian was Elamite.



Here is Cyrus

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what's your point?

detail of above
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.


.

By the year 540 BC, Cyrus captured Elam (Susiana) and its capital, Susa.


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^ colored portraits of Elamites

 -


That said, linguists agree that Dravidian and Elamite are from two different language phyla however it's unclear to what extent the actual Elamite people were related to the Indus people.

 -




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Relief of a warrior at the ancient ruins of Persepolis, Iran.

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Frieze of Archers. Persian soldier. Palace of Darius the Great




I have seen nothing credible that supports them being Elamites rather than Persians

They appear to have sharp or sometimes Semitic looking noses, curly hair, no prognathous, very thin lips and dark skin

hard to pin down phenotypically


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by coolnight:


I only came to message xyyman but his inbox was full. I want help in understanding my DNA Ancestry results. I got the impression that xyyman is up to date on ancestry genetics and know this field well. Are we allowed to post our DNA ancestry results on here?

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I would think it is an easy conversion from SNP to STRs..

xyyman is lost
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Ish Gebor
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 -


They knew what they were doing, they had it accurate down to the nail!!!

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


They knew what they were doing, they had it accurate down to the nail!!!

No one knows what you are talking about
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


They knew what they were doing, they had it accurate down to the nail!!!

No one knows what you are talking about
Speak for yourself!!!


 -

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^ colored portraits of Elamites

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3496/3781752919_5dc1f44de3.jpg

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1954d617f7ec998f538adae30a48ac1c-c

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-29f85974674175ea6b239397dbeedc0f-c


https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6e68da1b7168d21cfc00fdecd6d8973e-c

That said, linguists agree that Dravidian and Elamite are from two different language phyla however it's unclear to what extent the actual Elamite people were related to the Indus people.

I have posted this source a few times already, during your absence.


quote:
The period following the fall of the Akkadian Empire is traditionally seen as a period of darkness and anarchy by historians. While the perceived darkness is due to the rarity of Gutian artefacts and text material, the anarchy is an impression formed by the historians gained from the Sumerian and Babylonian historical and literary compositions describing Gutian rule. In fact these compositions were mostly compiled later than the Gutian period itself. Later in this chapter we shall attempt to answer the question whether the Gutian period was really so dark and fruitless, and to interpret the related evidence.


The Gutian Arrival

Some historical allusions in the texts of the Akkadian period indicate that early on there was Gutian infiltration into Mesopotamian lowlands. One of these allusions is to the probable presence of Gutians as soldiers in the Akkadian army.1 The archives of Adab from the Akkadian period mention Gutians who received rations,2 some of them described as ‘travellers’3 and others term residents, that the local governor had to use a Gutian interpreter to communicate with them.

[...]

This acquaintance with Mesopotamian practices as well as other pertinent circumstances helped the Gutians overthrow the Akkadian Dynasty and seize power in the land.

[...]


Whatever the background, the Gutians finally dominated the land of Akkad and “carried off the kingship of Sumer to the mountains/foreign land.”17 This metaphor clearly implies that the fate of the land and its sovereignty passed into the hands of a foreigner, specifically the great Gutian king.18 The Gutians were probably supported by other peoples and groups in the region, perhaps even the Sumerians,19 who looked for liberation from the Akkadian yoke. The neighbouring peoples had together formed an alliance against Narām-Sîn years before, and so it would have been natural to do the same this time. Among the probable allies one may expect the Elamites who were always ready to benefit from any weakness of their western neighbour, the Lullubians, the Hurrians and other mountain peoples and groups who had raided Akkadian territories earlier or who had suffered from campaigns of the kings of Agade.(20) It appears that the Gutians did not (or perhaps they were not able to) spread their hegemony over the whole land of Sumer and Akkad. This is suggested by the presence of the influential Second Lagaš Dynasty and the Uruk Dynasty at the end of the period of Gutian rule. The inscriptions of Ur-Namma refer to at least three independent political entities in Sumer at that period: the Uruk city-state with its ruler Utu‹eg̃al, Lagaš, and the region under the Gutians. There is a suggestion that the two royal names Dudu and Šudurul, mentioned in the SKL as kings of Agade, were in fact rulers of the region centred on the city of Agade (21) during the Gutian rule.


https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/19095/03.pdf?sequence=7
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

I have seen nothing credible that supports them being Elamites rather than Persians

How about all the evidence from both Assyrians and Egyptians as well as the Greeks that Persians proper were a "white" people who according to the Greeks are "whiter" in complexion than them!

Although, I should point out that many of the Persian elites intermarried with the indigenous Elamites.

quote:
They appear to have sharp or sometimes Semitic looking noses, curly hair, no prognathous, very thin lips and dark skin

hard to pin down phenotypically

And what exactly is a "Semitic" looking nose?? Artwork is only one piece of evidence, to give a more accurate assessment one needs the skeletal remains of the people themselves.
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the lioness,
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
I have seen nothing credible that supports them being Elamites rather than Persians

How about all the evidence from both Assyrians and Egyptians as well as the Greeks that Persians proper were a "white" people who according to the Greeks are "whiter" in complexion than them!


 -
Detail of Darius III Reign (380–330 BC)
from the Alexander Mosaic circa 100 BC


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Darius I, Behistun Persian Ruins, 521 BC

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Ish Gebor
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Every body with a pair of healthy eyes and a properly functioning brain can see and understand that there is an ethnic difference between Darius I and Darius III.
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the lioness,
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 -
The Behistun Inscription is a multilingual inscription and large rock relief on a cliff at Mount Behistun in the Kermanshah Province of Iran, near the city of Kermanshah in western Iran.
Authored by Darius the Great sometime between his coronation as king of the Persian Empire in the summer of 522 BC and his death in autumn of 486 BC.
The document most crucial in the deciphering of a previously lost script. It is located in the Kermanshah Province of Iran, and contains three versions of the same text, written in three different cuneiform script languages: Old Persian, Elamite, and Babylonian.

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detail, Darius I


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detail, Bow bearer of Darius ( first figure behind Darius )


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Darius, relief from the Central Relief of the Northern Stairs of the Apadana, Persepolis


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Persian Guard at Persepolis

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
I have seen nothing credible that supports them being Elamites rather than Persians

How about all the evidence from both Assyrians and Egyptians as well as the Greeks that Persians proper were a "white" people who according to the Greeks are "whiter" in complexion than them!


 -
Detail of Darius III Reign (380–330 BC)
from the Alexander Mosaic circa 100 BC
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Darius I, Behistun Persian Ruins, 521 BC

What you and many others fail to understand is that 'Persia' during the Greco-Persian Wars was an Empire. Thus "Persian" could either mean the general nationality or it could mean the specific ethnicity i.e. the Parsi people themselves. Thus in most cases of the literature the Greeks did not bother to distinguish and all the soldiers of the empire were "Persian" regardless of their ethnicity while other times they did specifcy either Parsi, Mede, or even Elamite.

Herodotus for example:

In the Histories the Persians are sometimes not exactly distinguishable from other peoples of their empire, especially when the Greeks’ opponents are simply qualified as “Persians.” The Persians generally are run together with the Medes, as can be recognized by Herodotus’s use of the terms mēdízein and mēdismós (Myres, 1936; Graf, 1984; Tuplin, 1994, 1997; Rollinger, 2003). He also states that the Persians have adopted Median attire (1.35; Armayor, 1978c, p. 5). Both Medes and Persians are qualified by Herodotus as an éthnos, and he lists six génea for each, respectively. (The génea may be understood as a descent group. For the use of éthnos and génea in Herodotus, see Jones, 1996; Tanck, 1997). The Median génea are: Boûsai, Parētakēnoí, Stroúxates, Arizantoí, Boúdioi, Mágoi (1.101). The Persian are Pasargádai, Maráphioi, Máspioi, Panthialaîoi, Dērousiaîoi, Germánioi (1.125.3-4; cf. Briant, 1984, pp. 102-18; Erbse, 1992, pp. 181-89; Schmitt, 1996). The first three Persian génea are the leading ones, of whom the Pasargádai are said to be the most noble (áristoi). Only for them Herodotus adduces a clan lineage group (phrḗtrē), which is called Axaimenídai (Schmitt, 1987), a distinctive part of whom are the Perseídai, the Persian kings (Rollinger, 1998 [1999], p. 188). Herodotus does not provide a direct genealogical line leading from this dim and distant era into the historically clearer past. These Persian génea are qualified as farmers (arotḗres), but he also lists four nomadic ones: Dáoi, Márdoi, Dropikoí, Sagártioi. Later the Sagártioi are described as being Persian in speech but only half-Persian in respect to their war equipment (7.85.1). Thus Herodotus draws the picture of a stratified éthnos with different economic and social levels (Bichler, 2000b, p. 218).


Or when it came to the Persian elite warriors-- the Ten Thousand Immortals:

Ten Thousand Immortals, in Persian history, core troops in the Achaemenian army, so named because their number of 10,000 was immediately reestablished after every loss. Under the direct leadership of the hazarapat, or commander in chief, the Immortals, who formed the king’s personal bodyguard, consisted primarily of Persians but also included Medes and Elamites. They apparently had special privileges, such as being allowed to take concubines and servants along with them on the march. On coloured glazed bricks and carved reliefs found at the Achaemenian capitals, such as the Palace of Artaxerxes at Susa, the Immortals are often represented standing stiffly at attention, each soldier’s wooden spear with its silver blade and pomegranate insignia held upright and resting firmly on his toe. They wore elaborate robes and much gold jewelry. An elite 1,000 of the Immortals were further distinguished by having gold pomegranates on their spears.


Non of this changes the fact that the Parsi proper as well as the Medes were indeed fair or pale skin compared to the Greeks. According to Greek sources, the Persians were likened to women in that they not only wore trousers but also wore long sleeves covering their arms and even wrapped their heads with cloths that covered their faces. This differed from the skirt wearing, more skin exposed, face showing Greek warriors. Many Greek commentators spoke of how Persian men didn't like exposing their skin to the sun and elements which again to the Greeks was 'effeminate' and which explains Xenophon's description of stripped Persian warriors having pale skins exposed.

The Alexander mural depicting Darius III above is accurate in that it shows a man whose uncovered face sports a tan, which is different from the chocolate dark i.e. black Elamite warriors.

Here are a couple more later sources on Parsi appearance:

beauty is relative, the Ethiopians preferring the blackest and the most flat-nosed and the Persians approving the whitest and the most hook-nosed.[/i'
Sextus Empiricus (Adv. Ethicos, 43.) 1st Century A.D

[i]The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal (northwest Iran), and Khurasan (northeast Iran & Afghanistan), the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous;

Al Jahiz-Glory of the Sudan to Bidan(Blacks over the Whites)..9th Century

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Thereal
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That part is a lie as the rock relief depicts woolly to a intermediate type hair and the mural only shows straight hair.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
How about all the evidence from both Assyrians and Egyptians as well as the Greeks that Persians proper were a "white" people who according to the Greeks are "whiter" in complexion than them!

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

 -
Darius, relief from the Central Relief of the Northern Stairs of the Apadana, Persepolis



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detail, Darius I


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detail, Bow bearer of Darius ( first figure behind Darius )




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Persian Guard at Persepolis

At top two depictions of Darius I of Persia. Some people feel the hair type proves he can't be white. True or false?
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Ish Gebor
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Darius I

Predecessor Bardiya
Successor Xerxes I


Darius III

Predecessor Artaxerxes IV
Successor Alexander the Great


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Ish Gebor
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 -


In terms of facial features his looks come close to this man.


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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


Some people feel the hair type proves he can't be white. True or false?

[Roll Eyes]


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Yep people, here we have it a dark skinned white male.

Large image.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8d/ee/4d/8dee4d0d33edf2d150f8640ca5b77ad4.jpg


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Here are more dark skinned white males:


http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc247/rez-twc/3359314631_272e776588_o.jpg


The following people are dark skinned whites as well, didn't you'll know?


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Here are dark skinned "white Iranians":

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I feel some people need to go to a mental hospital. True or false?

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xyyman
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Mary! Don't you know this is a fake?!

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
!


 -
Detail of Darius III Reign (380–330 BC)
from the Alexander Mosaic circa 100 BC



--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Mary! Don't you know this is a fake?!

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
!


 -
Detail of Darius III Reign (380–330 BC)
from the Alexander Mosaic circa 100 BC


It's not fake.
As I showed with the dates it was made 230 years after Darius III dies. It's a mural depicting a historical scene. That doesn't mean it's fake.
You don't seem to know what "fake" means. In art it means a copied version of another piece of art that was real.
It sounds stupid to say this is fake. It's an artists imagined version of what Darius III looked like.

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the lioness,
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Coin of Shapur I, late period Persia, Sassanian 224–651 AD




 -

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Djehuti
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I just cited 2nd hand sources on the ethnicity of the ancient Persians and you guys fall back on hair texture of unpainted reliefs. You people are hopeless and your asinine asses belong in the 'deshret' section of the forum.
quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:

That part is a lie as the rock relief depicts woolly to a intermediate type hair and the mural only shows straight hair.

And how does hair type help any argument considering that there are whites with woolly or curly and blacks with straight hair??
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

At top two depictions of Darius I of Persia. Some people feel the hair type proves he can't be white. True or false?

Don't be your usual dishonestly coy self. YOU have addressed this very issue before!

The MooFerferia (curly-hair in Persian) Facebook community has about 8000 members worldwide, and for the first time gathered in Tehran’s Nation Park in January 2011 for a few hours before they were asked to leave by park police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NoofGFi8gNA

The curls mean exactly what they appear to mean

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
according to the Greeks are "whiter" in complexion than them!


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:


Here are a couple more later sources on Parsi appearance:

beauty is relative, the Ethiopians preferring the blackest and the most flat-nosed and the Persians approving the whitest and the most hook-nosed.[/i'
Sextus Empiricus (Adv. Ethicos, 43.) 1st Century A.D

[i]The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal (northwest Iran), and Khurasan (northeast Iran & Afghanistan), the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous;

Al Jahiz-Glory of the Sudan to Bidan(Blacks over the Whites)..9th Century [/QB]

You have no earlier sources

no evidence close to the classical Persian empire period

Median and Achaemenid Empire (650–330 BC)

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the lioness,
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 -
Young woman spinning and servant holding a fan. Fragment of a relief known as "The spinner". Bitumen mastic, Neo-Elamite period (8th century B.C.–middle of the 6th century B.C.). Found in Susa.


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Silver cup with linear-Elamite inscription on it. Late 3rd millennium BC. National Museum of Iran.


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Elamite God, Susa, Iran Beginning of the 2nd millennium BCE


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Bronze figurine with sword and quiver and a five-line cuneiform inscription, from Lorestan, Iran Neo-Elamit period, ca 8th-7th century BC, bronze. National Museum of Iran, Tehran.


^^ Elamite hundreds of years before the familiar reliefs at Persepolis (550–330 BC) including Darius etc

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Thereal
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Djehuti whites narrowly defined themselves they included African and south Asian people with thin features knowing that it becomes easy to point out certain phenotype as they are lying about types of people who use to live in Europe or other parts of the world before the population was absorbed producing the modern Euro's, unless their hair is a mutation which I have no problems with as the issue is not the hair type but the depiction of the people with that hair. Singer name Halsey who is half African.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLxZvqaWgAA7YBG.jpg

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xyyman
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Are you for real?

**It's an artists imagined version of what Darius III looked like. ***

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[qb] Mary! Don't you know this is a fake?!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
!


 -
Detail of Darius III Reign (380–330 BC)
from the Alexander Mosaic circa 100 BC
[/qb. It's an artists imagined version of what Darius III looked like.



--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] Are you for real?

**It's an artists imagined version of what Darius III looked like. ***


Yes wake up,

Artists through the centuries have made art depicting historical figures from past centuries based on their imaginations or knowledge of earlier artifacts.

These are not "fakes". It is called historical art.

Fakes on the other hand are copies intended to trick the viewer into to thinking they are original like somebody imitating a Van Gogh style painting or making a sculpture imitating an Egyptian artifact and trying to pass it off as real, usually to sell it at a high price

I put that picture up because his skin is depicted brown or tanned.
As for features and hair I put up the Persepolis pieces which came from his time

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

You have no earlier sources

no evidence close to the classical Persian empire period

Median and Achaemenid Empire (650–330 BC)

I cited Xenophon first who described Persian prisoners as white/pale compared to Greeks as well as Herodotus, pay attention!
quote:
 -
Young woman spinning and servant holding a fan. Fragment of a relief known as "The spinner". Bitumen mastic, Neo-Elamite period (8th century B.C.–middle of the 6th century B.C.). Found in Susa.


 -
Silver cup with linear-Elamite inscription on it. Late 3rd millennium BC. National Museum of Iran.


 -
Elamite God, Susa, Iran Beginning of the 2nd millennium BCE


 -
Bronze figurine with sword and quiver and a five-line cuneiform inscription, from Lorestan, Iran Neo-Elamit period, ca 8th-7th century BC, bronze. National Museum of Iran, Tehran.


^^ Elamite hundreds of years before the familiar reliefs at Persepolis (550–330 BC) including Darius etc

Correct. The above are NOT Persians or Medes but Elamites and other Pre-Persian peoples like the Kassites and Gutians who lived in the Zagros area which is the very area where this second Neolithic ancestry comes from!
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
You have no earlier sources

no evidence close to the classical Persian empire period

Median and Achaemenid Empire (650–330 BC)

I cited Xenophon first who described Persian prisoners as white/pale compared to Greeks as well as Herodotus, pay attention!

quote:

And again, believing that to feel contempt for one's enemies infuses a certain courage for the fight, Agesilaus gave orders to his heralds that the barbarians who were captured by the Greek raiding parties should be exposed for sale naked. Thus the soldiers, seeing that these men were white-skinned because they never were without their clothing, and soft and unused to toil because they always rode in carriages, came to the conclusion that the war would be in no way different from having to fight with women

-- Xenophon, Hellenica

Maybe, but it's military propaganda

Scholars say these captured "barbarians" were Persians. I'm not sure if that's a sure thing

 -

^^ But what is the evidence that theses are Elamites?
If they are not Persians because of what Xenophon said why would they be Elamites?

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
It's not fake.
As I showed with the dates it was made 230 years after Darius III dies. It's a mural depicting a historical scene. That doesn't mean it's fake.
You don't seem to know what "fake" means. In art it means a copied version of another piece of art that was real.
It sounds stupid to say this is fake. It's an artists imagined version of what Darius III looked like.

"As I showed with the dates it was made 230 years after years after Darius III died". But it's not fake. [Confused] … Okay.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Are you for real?

**It's an artists imagined version of what Darius III looked like. ***

True. [Big Grin]


Definition of fake
: one that is not what it purports to be: such as

a : a worthless imitation passed off as genuine

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fakes

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Ish Gebor
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The mosaic of Alexander, found at the House of the Faun at Pompeii is one of the most intriguing representations of an ancient battle (figure 1)

1. We no longer possess the original painting from which it was probably copied. Whether the original was completely identical to its transposition in stone or just a model bearing different details in comparison with the mosaic we will never know. The scene preserved by Vesuvius’ lava shows a battle identified as one of the three battles Alexander fought against Darius III Codomannus between 334 and 331 BC.

2 Badian thinks he can recognize the last battle, Arbela (or Gaugamela) in the image showed by the mosaic, pointing out that both armies seem to be using Macedonian
sarissae, which, according to Diodoros,

3 were used only at Gaugamela.

4 Nevertheless it is not clear whether the sarissae rising behind the Persians belonged to them or were part of an invisible Macedonian army surrounding Darius’ forces. But as reasonably stated by Hölscher, usually ancient representations of battle-scenes lacked in realism;

6 therefore trying to reconstruct a tactical scheme in this image would be vain. The scene apparently represents a unitary lapse of time, in which the battle reaches both its apex and end, culminating with Darius’ retreat


https://www.academia.edu/11929853/The_Gorgon_and_the_Cross_Rereading_the_Alexander_Mosaic_and_the_House_of_the_Faun_at_Pompeii

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

^^ But what is the evidence that theses are Elamites?
If they are not Persians because of what Xenophon said why would they be Elamites?

We have sunk to a new low. Great, make it great again.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

^^ But what is the evidence that theses are Elamites?
If they are not Persians because of what Xenophon said why would they be Elamites?

We have sunk to a new low. Great, make it great again.
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


 -


You quoted this earlier. Did you bother to read the caption?

Your remark is useless and stupid. You posted no evidence that the above are Elamites not Persians.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]
And again, believing that to feel contempt for one's enemies infuses a certain courage for the fight, Agesilaus gave orders to his heralds that the barbarians who were captured by the Greek raiding parties should be exposed for sale naked. Thus the soldiers, seeing that these men were white-skinned because they never were without their clothing, and soft and unused to toil because they always rode in carriages, came to the conclusion that the war would be in no way different from having to fight with women

-- Xenophon, Hellenica

Maybe, but it's military propaganda

Of course it's military propaganda, but are you saying Xenophon's description of their skin color is a fabrication??

quote:
Scholars say these captured "barbarians" were Persians. I'm not sure if that's a sure thing
LOL This is like saying you're not sure that the black people with woolly hair whom Herodtus saw in Egypt were really Egyptians. By that shallow logic, everything recorded that is observed by first eye account is questionable.

quote:
 -

^^ But what is the evidence that theses are Elamites?
If they are not Persians because of what Xenophon said why would they be Elamites?

Look twit, it's not based soley on Xenophon but all the Greek sources as well as Assyrian and Egyptian. The Indo-European speaking Persians and their Mede kinsmen are fair-skinned people whereas the indigenous Elamites were not. It's as simple as that. The Persian Empire was a large multi-ethnic, multi-national group.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Look twit, it's not based soley on Xenophon but all the Greek sources as well as Assyrian and Egyptian. The Indo-European speaking Persians and their Mede kinsmen are fair-skinned people whereas the indigenous Elamites were not. It's as simple as that. The Persian Empire was a large multi-ethnic, multi-national group.

No need to resort to insults because you been asked for proper citation, sourced quotes, rather than "take my word for it" + name drops

So far you have only mentioned one quote from Xenophon which is contemporary to classical Persia which describes some captured "barbarians" as white-skinned

Where are the other quotes?

Where did the "white skinned" Persians originate?

And looking at the Frieze of the Archers if those are not Persians but instead Elamites are you basing it solely on them having dark skin that makes them Elamites?
And if the are Elamites why do numerous Persians depicted in the Persepolis reliefs have the exact same facial features and hair yet one group is indigenous and the other isn't?


 -

.


^^Are they all Elamites?


.

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Djehuti
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^ Whoever said that all of the figures depicted were Elamites?? Don't revert back to your dishonesty again by putting imaginary words in peoples posts. My simple point is that the black-skinned figures were the Elamites since the Parsi are not black-skinned but actually whiter than the Greeks. But again, the caveat is that both groups have intermarried through the course of history.

quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:

Djehuti whites narrowly defined themselves they included African and south Asian people with thin features knowing that it becomes easy to point out certain phenotype as they are lying about types of people who use to live in Europe or other parts of the world before the population was absorbed producing the modern Euro's, unless their hair is a mutation which I have no problems with as the issue is not the hair type but the depiction of the people with that hair. Singer name Halsey who is half African.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLxZvqaWgAA7YBG.jpg

Thereal I'm very much aware of the games Eurocentric scholars have played throughout the decades. The problem however is not only do they still try to do so today using genetics in regards to Africa but now there are some black psuedo-scholars and intellectuals who play the reverse game of black-painting entire peoples as 'African' just because they may happen to be black in skin color.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ Whoever said that all of the figures depicted were Elamites?? Don't revert back to your dishonesty again by putting imaginary words in peoples posts. My simple point is that the black-skinned figures were the Elamites since the Parsi are not black-skinned but actually whiter than the Greeks. But again, the caveat is that both groups have intermarried through the course of history.


I didn't put any words into your mouth. I asked the question are we to assume that of the many other figures at Persepolis with the exact same features and hair as the Frieze of the Archers features depict white Persians who happened to have the exact features as these dark skinned archers or are all such figures with this hair and features Elamites?


 -

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
Djehuti whites narrowly defined themselves they included African and south Asian people with thin features knowing that it becomes easy to point out certain phenotype as they are lying about types of people who use to live in Europe or other parts of the world before the population was absorbed producing the modern Euro's, unless their hair is a mutation which I have no problems with as the issue is not the hair type but the depiction of the people with that hair. Singer name Halsey who is half African.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLxZvqaWgAA7YBG.jpg

Good point. People accept Eurocentric myths because they fail to remember that since AMH originated in Africa, fine features are an African trait--not European.

Moreover, if the Hyksos and other people in the Levant and Anatolia claim they were Kushites, and the Kushites came from Africa; and the Fijians and other Melanesians claim they came from Africa, Black populations outside Africa, are also Africans.


.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

^^ But what is the evidence that theses are Elamites?
If they are not Persians because of what Xenophon said why would they be Elamites?

We have sunk to a new low. Great, make it great again.
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


 -


You quoted this earlier. Did you bother to read the caption?

Your remark is useless and stupid. You posted no evidence that the above are Elamites not Persians.

Show where I quoted that earlier? I posted sources like Royal City of Susa to Djehuti, which make you look useless and stupid. It is obvious that you have limited knowledge on this topic, as you do with most topics. Than again you enrolled in hitting and catching flies. So not a lot can be expected from you.

Earlier on I said they had it accurate and down to the nail, and your imposter black woman ass was confused about what that means. [Big Grin]


 -

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Djehuti
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^ LOL My sentiments exactly. Because 'Lioness' is ignorant, she reverts back to her trolling ways. By the way, this topic of Elamites vs. Persians was discussed multilple times in this forum before with Lioness present in some of those threads so why is she feigning ignorance again??
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Autshumato
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What is "fine features"? Long nose and thin lips? How can that be "fine features"? It's uncomfortable features I'd say. People with long/pragmatic noses speak in a uncomfortable way - almost through their noses, and the sound come out as something of a blocked​ nose. Plus those features are found in the Lesula-monkey and Proboscis monkey - nothing "fine" about them.


--- whistle's innocently, nothing to see here ---

--------------------
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.”

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Linda Fahr
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To Djehuti

I think you forgot that ancient Egyptians colonized the Middle East and, controlled trade routes in the Levant region in ancient times. Have you ever heard about agricultural "TRADE"? In fact, wheat was introduced in Egypt not because ancient Egyptians were Asians, but, because Egyptians controlled the region. That's why they fought the Hittites to continuous to control their trade routes which the Hittites took over after their migration into the region, wasn't it?

It's amazing how much pretension many people have over ancient Egypt, and Africa as a whole. First in 1700s and 1800s Europeans claimed an ancient Egyptians were white Europeans, then, come the Middle Eastern, claiming they were the first ancient Egyptians. Even Indians tried, but also fell to proved they had anything to do with the development of ancient Egyptian history.

The bottom line is....While ancient Egyptians had developed two writing systems - Hieroglyphs - applied to religion,laws, public announcements, foreign and domestic diplomacy, and Hieratic, applied to write sciences of mathematics, medicine, odontology, botanics and agriculture, which both writing systems were written on paper with ink, while people from Levant region still carving their writing system on "MUD" tablets. People from Indian only have few symbols carved in stone. That's how great they were in comparison to ancient Egyptian intellectual capacity... But, still, they wanted to claim ancient Egyptian history and culture as their own.....

--------------------
---lnnnnn*

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