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Author Topic: They are inventing Multiregionalism-in-Africa
xyyman
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yDNA A not E entered South Africa first !!!!!


This is from Dienekes. I find interesting and I partially agree with.

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I had previously called Irhoud 1 "The Father of Mankind" and proposed a "two deserts" theory of human evolution whereby our species originated in North Africa, and was pumped out of it to both the Middle East (and especially Arabia, the 2nd desert) and Sub-Saharan Africa during periods of Saharan aridity. This Out-of-North Africa theory (together with the secondary Out-of-Arabia expansion ~70kya) is responsible for the spread of Homo sapiens around the world.

The discovery and re-dating of modern human remains from Irhoud of course adds support to this theory and places North Africa as the most probable cradle of our species, with a comfortable 100kya buffer to the next place where modern humans are detected (the Omo remains of East Africa), and another comfortable 100kya buffer to the next place (Israel and the Skhul/Qafzeh hominins).

The interpretation of these findings in terms of Homo sapiens emerging out of a sort of multi-regional evolution involving all Africa is of course wrong. There is no reason to think of a single species evolving across the huge African continent. The early distribution of sapiens remains are in North Africa, East Africa, and the Near East, and such remains are absent in West/Central/South Africa.

The multi-regionalists lost the game in Eurasia, as it turned out that Eurasians only have ~2% archaic admixture, and they are inventing Multiregionalism-in-Africa.

Whatever finds we do have from Sub-Saharan Africa, some of them quite late (such as the Iwo Eleru remains from Nigeria), others of similar age as Irhoud (such as Florisbad and the recently described H. naledi from South Africa) did not belong to our species. The first modern humans appeared in South Africa with the Later Stone Age (probably associated with the migration of Y-chromosome haplogroup E into Africa), and the Hofmeyr skull (which resembled Eurasians and not the eternally romanticized Khoe-San). Even in East Africa the advent of modernity was not clear-cut (see Omo I vs. II and the more archaic later Herto specimen).

It seems that people were misled into thinking of Sub-Saharan Africa as the origin of our species by the genetic observation of greater genetic diversity of Sub-Saharan Africans. But, this diversity could have come about by admixture between people from North Africa and pre-existing people of Sub-Saharan Africa (both early waves of AMH and non-AMH).

It's not certain that North Africa will be the end of the story. Fashions shifted from the Near East to East Africa, to North Africa, with every new find. But, the fact that we do find the earliest modern humans in these areas, while we find non-AMH elsewhere (e.g. Europe or South Africa) is gradually constraining the solution to the problem of our origins. My bet remains North Africa; time will tell.

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Thereal
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It seems that people were misled into thinking of Sub-Saharan Africa as the origin of our species by the genetic observation of greater genetic diversity of Sub-Saharan Africans. But, this diversity could have come about by admixture between people from North Africa and pre-existing people of Sub-Saharan Africa (both early waves of AMH and non-AMH).


I'm confused by that part,I get its a lame excuse to explain how they are different from the blacks in the south but if I recall correctly the mulitregion theory postulates earlier forms of humanity arose in Africa and spread to other parts of the world to become said group or they evolved independently from types already in those lands,they aren't denying an African origin but seem like they are implying NA was already inhabited as they only way they could be different is time if they are not a new species so where do these ancient amh and north Africans originate if they aren't coming from Asia or Europe?

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I think there's a little bit of romanticizing going on here. While I agree that there are many clues suggesting that the origins of AMH came about more westward than we originally thought I believe the explanation Dienkes gives is more towards comfort than objectivity.

(as it relates to what's quoted by by OP)
The wording seems to suggest human origins in North Africa, then dispersals from the region populating nearby areas or so to the east, essentially suggesting that different populations branched from a north African Epicenter with multiple waves towards the south. This seems like a way to cut corners and not have to deal with the reality and/or magnitude of the implications of some findings like haplogroup DE and the shared introgression and admixture in North and SSA.

To me it doesn't really matter where AMH actually emerged, what matters is everything else. Most OOA's particularly west Eurasians and north Africans converge on a model Ancient East African (AEA) a subsaharan Archetype. Other OOAs fall in between the latter and extant San populations (not even BBay's basal African). I also haven't seen any live evidence of archaic introgression in north Africa not shared with SSA's. So even If Humans did originate from North Africa, I don't buy the Idea that they branched out of that region (at that time). Rather there was later a PostOOA population expansion mostly within Africa involving the MENA, which'll better explain the distribution of HG.E. <- that I believe have a north African/Saharan source.

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Clyde Winters
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This is bs. Man originated in South Africa.

This is supported by the fact that the varied ancient cultures appear first in South Africa, and then move north into North Africa and Eurasia, via Iberia.

This is all part of a ploy to take the origin of man in an area they can promote as non Sub-Saharan Africans, by making it appear that the (white) Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa.

They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure?

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C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure? [/QB]

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Clyde stop making up stuff most Khoisans are lighter than other Africans and everybody knows it. The darker ones are mixed with
Bantu. They live further from the equator so naturally one would expect them to be not as dark as most equatorial Africans

Also xyyman has shown the average berber is over 80% African

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Clyde Winters
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 -

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These Hausa women are lighter skinned than these Khoisan, who have not mated with Bantu. Black people come in different colors. Khoisan are no lighter than any other African population.


.


.

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C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure?

 -


Clyde stop making up stuff most Khoisans are lighter than other Africans and everybody knows it. The darker ones are mixed with
Bantu. They live further from the equator so naturally one would expect them to be not as dark as most equatorial Africans

Also xyyman has shown the average berber is over 80% African [/QB]

LOL. Only a fool accepts every lie made by Eurocentric scholar.

.

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These researchers know that the first Europeans were Khoisan,so, they try to pretend the Khoisan are lighter than other Africans to perfect their lie.

,
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.

.

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C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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Some African groups are on average lighter and others darker

And that's Eurocentric ??

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Some African groups are on average lighter and others darker

And that's Eurocentric ??

No. The myth that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans is a myth.
.

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C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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 -
Some Khoisans are dark but many Khoisans have lighter skin than other Africans, not just the women but the men. And you can see this in many photos of tribes people living in the rural areas not urban women all made up.

Clyde I don't know why you have a problem with this. Is it just dislike you have for lighter skin?

And it has nothing to do with Europeans, it's African diversity.
Some groups are tall others short, etc etc variation

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xyyman
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I do believe North Africa played a very important if not the origin of our species.

I don't see how our species could have evolved in the tropical rain forest. The Sahel ..maybe. I believe there was a "geological" shift. And with evolution of the Sahara humans shifted south and North. Remember Italy and southern Europe was "Tropical" at one time.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -
Some Khoisans are dark but many Khoisans have lighter skin than other Africans, not just the women but the men. And you can see this in many photos of tribes people living in the rural areas not urban women all made up.

Clyde I don't know why you have a problem with this. Is it just dislike you have for lighter skin?

And it has nothing to do with Europeans, it's African diversity.
Some groups are tall others short, etc etc variation

LOL.We are Colored folk as illustrated by my photo of Hausa women.

I have nothing against light skin people. If you were Afro-American you would know that in the AA family some members are light and others dark in fact when I was younger I was much lighter than I am now.

The Khoisan are no lighter or darker than any other African population. I just get tired of Eurocentrists creating lies about African people and their history.

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C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I do believe North Africa played a very important if not the origin of our species.

I don't see how our species could have evolved in the tropical rain forest. The Sahel ..maybe. I believe there was a "geological" shift. And with evolution of the Sahara humans shifted south and North. Remember Italy and southern Europe was "Tropical" at one time.

Southern Africa is not a tropical rain forest.

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The earliest AMHs have been found in Southern--not North Africa. Moreover, North Africa, the Sahel and etc., is less stable geologically than North Africa.

As I said before, situating the origin of man in North Africa is bs.

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C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure?

 -


Clyde stop making up stuff most Khoisans are lighter than other Africans and everybody knows it. The darker ones are mixed with
Bantu. They live further from the equator so naturally one would expect them to be not as dark as most equatorial Africans

Also xyyman has shown the average berber is over 80% African [/QB]

The Berbers came from Germanic background. The Tuareg and Berbers are two different populations.

The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West.
The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.

Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) a important oasis of the Morocco
)

The Taureg have traditionally been associated with the Western Sudan and Sahel. Not North Africa.

The Libyans can not be homogenous because beginning with the invasion of the Peoples of the Sea numerous ethnic groups were deposited in the Delta and other parts of North Africa.

Let’s discuss this issue that Berbers and Tuareg practice an African culture. This is evident when we look at the dress of Berber and Tuareg women

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/simylie/4291561276/
Tuareg

The Berber traditional dress is more European. They wear attire common to Germanic folk dress instead of the garb associated with the Tuareg due to the Germanic origin of this population.
 -


http://www.flickr.com/photos/54996985@N00/4430460208/in/pool-algeria/

Berbers

The culture of the Berbers and Tuareg does not correspond


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Berbers

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C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Berbers

The culture of the Berbers and Tuareg does not correspond


 -

Berbers

 - [/QB]

why have you posted a picture of Bulgarian folk dancers??
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Berber traditional dress is more European. They wear attire common to Germanic folk dress instead of the garb associated with the Tuareg due to the Germanic origin of this population.
 -
Ouled Naďl people


Clyde is this a joke?


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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouled_Naďl#/media/File:Dancer_of_Algeria_NGM-v31-p266.jpg

Ouled Naďl

The oral lore of the Ouled Naďl people claims ancient Arab descent from tribes that arrived in the area about a thousand years ago. Some traditions trace their ancestry to the Banu Hilal of Hejaz, who came to the highlands through El Oued, Ghardaia,[1] while others claim that they are direct descendants of Idris I.[2] Current research confirms that the Ouled Naďl have are a highly Arabized Berber tribal society.[3]

The Ouled Naďl are seminomadic or nomadic people living in the highlands of the range of the Saharan Atlas to which they gave their name.


 -


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Clyde, show us Europeans dressed like this

The oral lore of the Ouled Naďl people claims ancient Arab descent

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Clyde Winters
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The Vandal Origin of the Berbers Cheikh Anta Diop makes it clear that the Berbers are not related to Palaeo-Africans. In Libya Antiqua, Diop explains how the original Libu and Tehenu were blacks; and that the Berbers are descended from the Peoples of the Sea who arrived in the area around 1200 BC and fought Ramses III.

He makes it clear that the majority of the Berbers are descended from the Peoples of the Sea See:Diop, C A , "Formation of the Berber Branch", In Libya Antiqua,(ed) by UNESCO ,(Paris:UNESCO 1986) page 69 and C.A. Diop Civilization or Barbarism (Lawrence Hill Com.1991, p.34).


The Berber languages support a European origin for this group. When I talk about the Berbers I am not talking about the Tuareg, I am talking about the light skinned European looking Berbers.

The Berber language is related to Germanic languages. And the Germanic languages are native to Germany.

The Vandal rule of North Africa, explains the Germanic substratum influence in Berber. This linguistic connection results from the German rule in North Africa for 400 years. The Vandal rule in North Africa explains the origin of the white speakers of this "language" family.

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the reVerse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).

The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European origin, especially Vandal origin. Official rule Vandal rule lated only a 100+ years, but bthe 20-80k Vandals who settled Africa had a lasting influence in the North Africa.

The experts say that the Berber languages (I am not including Tuareg) has elements from numerous European languages I have never seen any discussion of Berber relations to East African languages, Berber languages are related to the Semitic group due to the Arabic speakers that surround them.


Berber Languages
quote:




Berber Languages, Retrieved april 26,2006
http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html


Introduction

The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.

Consonants

Berber consonants include:

glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation;
implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out;
geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.

Grammar

Noun phrase

Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.

Verb phrase

Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.

Vocabulary

Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.

Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69). [/b]
The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.


I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.

Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.

 -

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You can also consult Note di geografia linguistica berbera more ,by Vermondo Brugnatelli :
http://unimib.academia.edu/VermondoBrugnatelli/Papers/1098593/Note_di_geografia_linguistica_berbera


.


The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.


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--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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 -


 -
Tuaregs collecting firewood in the desert of the Acacus Mountains or Tadrart Acacus, Akakus, Libya, North Africa

Tuareg population, all countries: 2.5 milliion

Total Berber population 25-50 million

North African Population, 195 million (2007).

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Berber languages support a European origin for this group. When I talk about the Berbers I am not talking about the Tuareg, I am talking about the light skinned European looking Berbers.

The Berber language is related to Germanic languages. And the Germanic languages are native to Germany.

The Vandal rule of North Africa, explains the Germanic substratum influence in Berber. This linguistic connection results from the German rule in North Africa for 400 years. The Vandal rule in North Africa explains the origin of the white speakers of this "language" family.


xyyman can you address this, Clyde is trying to promote the lie that the berbers are a back migration of Europeans, please set him straight on this, this Vandal myth.
The Tuaregs are less than 2% of North Africans
Can you please educate Clyde as to the Mozabites, Riffians, Saharawis, etc all these berber groups. As we can clearly see their DNA is African not European


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

 -


 -
Amazigh. Not an Ottoman Turk. Note facial structure

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Real Berbers


Morocco, Atlas Mountains:
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xyyman
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Dr Winters and disagree only on a few things. Berbers are more African than maybe even some SSA. Turks imposters of Africans are not Africans.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Dr Winters and disagree only on a few things. Berbers are more African than maybe even some SSA. Turks imposters of Africans are not Africans.

So to what extent is the average Maghrebian of Turkish ancestry?

How Turkish is the Maghreb ?

Also Clyde thinks apart form the Tuareg berbers derive primarily from Germanic Vandals who were said to have occupied part of North Africa 435 AD to 534 AD.

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xyyman
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Berbers carry morphological features similar to KhoiSans, East Asians and some SSA. I believe Coon called it Capsoid who occupied all of Adrica and Asia until the Neolithic arrived from Sudan region.

Yes. The 3 pics are Berbers.

I don't use written "history", by genetic data and archeological data.

--------------------
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Berbers carry morphological features similar to KhoiSans, East Asians and some SSA. I believe Coon called it Capsoid who occupied all of Adrica and Asia until the Neolithic arrived from Sudan region.

Khosisans are of Y DNA haplogroup A and B

The predominant berber clade is E-M81

the San don't carry that


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Also most North Africans do not resemble
Khosians much. Khosians often have very
wide set eyes, peppercorn hair and epicanthal eye fold, lighter skin on average

Also, read back I added to my last post, Clyde thinks
apart from Tuaregs berbers are derived from a back migrations of Germanic Vandals

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1. Khoi_San and click speakers Hadza carry E-M35 paraclade of E-M81

2. Berbers ALSO carry yDNA A closely related to Khoi-San.

3. Morphologically I speak about the flatface and wide cheek bone. Take it up with Coon not me.

!Kung 64 Angola KS 10.9%
Khwe 26 Namibia KS 30.8%

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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You should know by that you don't fugkc with me! :D :rolleyes:


I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
1. Khoi_San and click speakers Hadza carry E-M35 paraclade of E-M81

2. Berbers ALSO carry yDNA A closely related to Khoi-San.

3. Morphologically I speak about the flatface and wide cheek bone. Take it up with Coon not me.

!Kung 64 Angola KS 10.9%
Khwe 26 Namibia KS 30.8%

I'm not taking up anything with Coon's outdated racist theories.
Try taking it up with knowing what you are talking about and backing it with current anthropology

You have copied the percentages of M215 form wikipedia
but the particular subclade of most of the Khwe people is E-M293

there's about a hundred groups there on the M215 including the Tigre people at 100% and many other East African groups also elsewhere, Souss berbers 98%, Somalis in Kenya 100%, Pasiegos from Cantabria 42.9%


So you think randomly pointing to one group the Khwe does not make any case and wide cheeks is not enough to build any case.
Stop the flimsy BS, there is no special relationship between berbers and Khoisan

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:


I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Take it up with Coon not me.


He's been dead for 36 years


quote:


Carleton Coon

 -


This schematic map shows the distribution of the five subspecies of Homo during most of the Pleistocene, from 500,000 to 10,000 years ago. This distribution matches that on the diagram in Chapter 1. Of the five subspecies, the Congoid was the most isolated; it was in contact with only one other, the Capoid, then resident in North Africa. The second map shows what happened at the end of the Pleistocene, when the Mongoloids and Caucasoids expanded and burst out of their territories. The Mongoloids entered and inhabited America, and extended their domain southward into Southeast Asia and Indonesia, while the Australoids crossed Wallace's Line and occupied Australia and New Guinea. The Caucasoids thrust northward. More significantly, they drove the Capoids out of North Africa and occupied the White Highlands of Kenya and Tanganyika. The Congoids were reduced to a small part of their earlier domain, including the Congo forests and the lands to the north, where they later evolved rapidly and spread, as Negroes, over much of Africa.

https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/TOoR-Chp13.htm


More Cooning:


^^ Carleton Coon's wacky theory look closely at the maps, the various peoples migrations form the top map to the bottom map


More Cooning >

quote:


"Meanwhile we may note that a detailed analysis of 571 modern Negro crania, made by advanced mathematical techniques, has shown that these crania gravitate between two poles, a Mediterranean Caucasoid and a Pygmy one. The former type is again divisible into an ordinary Mediterranean and a Western Asian type, which suggests more than a single northern point of origin for the Caucasoid element. As we shall in greater detail in Chapter 8 and 9, the Negroes resemble Caucasoids closely a number of genetic traits that are inherited in a simple fashion. Examples of these are fingerprints, types of earwax, and the major blood groups. The Negroes also have some of the same local, predominantly African, blood types as the Pygmies. "
This evidence suggests that the Negroes are not a primary sub-species but rather a product of mixture between invading Caucasoids and Pygmies who lived on the edges of the forest, which at the end of the Pleistocene extended farther north and east than it does now.

The Living Races of Man by Carleton S. Coon


Sub-Saharan Africans are arrayed on a cline going from Mbuti Pygmies to Europeans


xyyman, what were you saying about inventing multiregionalism in Africa again?
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I am not subscribing to racist theory because I race does not exist. My point is Coon had some ideas but was not entirely correct.

He did not understand and have genetics as his tools. Modern genetics prove he was on the right track but not entirely right

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] yDNA A not E entered South Africa first !!!!!


This is from Dienekes. I find interesting and I partially agree with.

------


they are inventing Multiregionalism-in-Africa.....


....It seems that people were misled into thinking of Sub-Saharan Africa as the origin of our species


You is "they"

what are the names?

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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
1. Khoi_San and click speakers Hadza carry E-M35 paraclade of E-M81

2. Berbers ALSO carry yDNA A closely related to Khoi-San.

3. Morphologically I speak about the flatface and wide cheek bone. Take it up with Coon not me.

!Kung 64 Angola KS 10.9%
Khwe 26 Namibia KS 30.8%

1 - This was cleared up a LONG time ago, repeatedly. E-M35* form Henn and Tishkoff was not ancestral, it was later resolved as E-M293.
2 - Berber Haplogroup A (which is mostly shared with Senegambians), which is A1a/A00, is totally different from South African Haplogroup A, which forms a Brother clade with East African A....a Clade separated by 10's of thousands of years. You can see that in this map.

Sometimes you are spot on, right now you are all over the place.

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^ he's trying to clump too much ideas together, xyyman, you gotta learn to lose. Let go of the little things to unveil the bigger picture. I know you already KNOW the things said above, why bother obfuscate and further tarnish your credibility?

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009467;p=9#000420

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Autshumato
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure?

 -


Clyde stop making up stuff most Khoisans are lighter than other Africans and everybody knows it. The darker ones are mixed with
Bantu. They live further from the equator so naturally one would expect them to be not as dark as most equatorial Africans

Also xyyman has shown the average berber is over 80% African [/QB]

Reason for their light skin might be due to admixture, plus the darker San outnumber the light skin ones.

[ 24. August 2017, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]

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xyyman
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I am ALWAYS on the money but sometimes I think English is not your first language. I said E1b1b found in South Africans/Khoi_Sans are paraclades to those found in Berbers. Then you repeat what I just said like you are making a point. Who said one is ancestral to the other? I haven’t looked at the Tree for yDNA-A recently but I also believe both a siblings or paraclades.

 -

I am always spot on!! ALWAYS. I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!!!

@Autshumato - Read the new paper on Khoi-San. I believe my thread was deleted but Khoi-San light skin is ANCESTRAL to Europeans.

You may be in the wrong thread Brotha. Just saying.


Edit- Just looked at your Y-DNA chart on hg-A. I am don’t get you people. You post shyte and either don’t read it first or don’t understand it. A-M31 found in Berbers and A-M^ found in South Africans-Khoi_San are siblings or paraclades. You just made my point.
Khoi-San and Berbers are distantly related. WT…..SMH. This supports that Coon was probably right. “Capsoids” occupied North Africa

quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
1. Khoi_San and click speakers Hadza carry E-M35 paraclade of E-M81

2. Berbers ALSO carry yDNA A closely related to Khoi-San.

3. Morphologically I speak about the flatface and wide cheek bone. Take it up with Coon not me.

!Kung 64 Angola KS 10.9%
Khwe 26 Namibia KS 30.8%

1 - This was cleared up a LONG time ago, repeatedly. E-M35* form Henn and Tishkoff was not ancestral, it was later resolved as E-M293.
2 - Berber Haplogroup A (which is mostly shared with Senegambians), which is A1a/A00, is totally different from South African Haplogroup A, which forms a Brother clade with East African A....a Clade separated by 10's of thousands of years. You can see that in this map.

Sometimes you are spot on, right now you are all over the place.



--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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------
From Wiki
Y-DNA haplogroup A contains lineages deriving from the earliest branching in the human Y chromosome tree. The oldest branching event, separating A0-P305 and A1-V161, is thought to have occurred about 140,000 years ago. Haplogroups A0-P305, A1a-M31 and A1b1a-M14 are restricted to Africa and A1b1b-M32 is nearly restricted to Africa. The haplogroup that would be named A1b2 is composed of haplogroups B through T. The internal branching of haplogroup A1-V161 into A1a-M31, A1b1, and BT (A1b2) may have occurred about 110,000 years ago. A0-P305 is found at low frequency in Central and West Africa. A1a-M31 is observed in northwestern Africans; A1b1a-M14 is seen among click language-speaking Khoisan populations. A1b1b-M32 has a wide distribution including Khoisan speaking and East African populations, and scattered members *****on the Arabian Peninsula.*****

----

Remember this new paper is coming out that speaks about Khoi-Sans aDNA(autosomal) in the Indian Ocean. Can’t wait for that paper!

Southern Europeans has their own version of yDNA A, see - Low-pass DNA sequencing of 1200 Sardinians reconstructs European Y-chromosome phylogeny. Francalacci et al

As I said, don’t fugk with me if you don’t know what you are talking about. SMH.

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Autshumato
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@Punos_Rey, why edit my comment? I was being specific so that whoever reads it knows about who they admixed with. It just says admixed, but not with who?


This behavior of yours is very strange.

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“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.”

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xyyman
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My Point. The root of the yDNA(A) is found from Southern Europe to the Levant. Yes, Khoi-San related peoples occupied North Africa, Southern Europe and the Levant.


Cruciani F, Trombetta B, Massaia A, Destro-Bisol G, Sellitto D, Scozzari R (June 2011). "A revised root for the human Y chromosomal phylogenetic tree: the origin of patrilineal diversity in Africa"
----
Wiki -
A0-P305[edit]
A0 or A1b-P305 is found only in Bakola Pygmies (South Cameroon) at 8.3% and Berbers from Algeria at 1.5%.[5 (Cruiciani et al 2011)] Also found in Ghana.[6]

Africa —Northern[edit]
The subclade A1 has been observed in Moroccan Berbers, while the subclade A3b2 has been observed in approximately 3% of Egyptian males.

Africa —Southern[edit]
One study has found haplogroup A in samples of various Khoisan-speaking tribes with frequency ranging from 10% to 70%.[14] Surprisingly, this particular haplogroup was not found in a sample of the Hadzabe from Tanzania, a population traditionally considered an ancient remnant of Khoisans due to the presence of click consonants in their language.

Eurasia[edit]
Haplogroup A has been observed as A1 in European men in England. As A3b2, it has been observed with low frequency in Asia Minor, the Middle East, and some Mediterranean islands, among Aegean Turks, Sardinians, Palestinians, Jordanians,**** Yemenites***** and Omanis. Without testing for any subclade, haplogroup A has been observed in a sample of Greeks from Mitilini on the Aegean island of Lesvos[25] and in samples of Portuguese from southern Portugal, central Portugal, and Madeira.[26] The authors of one study have reported finding what appears to be haplogroup A in 3.1% (2/65) of a sample of Cypriots,[27] though they have not definitively excluded the possibility that either of these individuals may belong to haplogroup B or haplogroup C.

M51[edit]
The subclade A1b1b2a-M51 (formerly A3b1) occurs most frequently among Khoisan peoples (6/11 = 55% Nama,[14] 11/39 = 28% Khoisan,[17] 7/32 = 22% !Kung/Sekele,[14] 6/29 = 21% Tsumkwe San,[14] 1/18 = 6% Dama[14]). However, it also has been found with lower frequency among Bantu peoples of Southern Africa, including 2/28 = 7% Sotho–Tswana,[14] 3/53 = 6% non-Khoisan Southern Africans,[17] 4/80 = 5% Xhosa,[14] and 1/29 = 3% Zulu.[14]

M13[edit]
The subclade A1b1b2b-M13 (formerly A3b2) is primarily distributed among Nilotic populations in East Africa and northern Cameroon. It is different from the A subclades that are found in the Khoisan samples and only remotely related to them (it is actually only one of many subclades within haplogroup A). This finding suggests an ancient divergence.

In Sudan, haplogroup A-M13 has been found in 28/53 = 52.8% of Southern Sudanese, 13/28 = 46.4% of the Nuba of central Sudan, 25/90 = 27.8% of Western Sudanese, 4/32 = 12.5% of local Hausa people, and 5/216 = 2.3% of Northern Sudanese.[36]

In Ethiopia, one study has reported finding haplogroup A-M13 in 14.6% (7/48) of a sample of Amhara and 10.3% (8/78) of a sample of Oromo.[21] Another study has reported finding haplogroup A3b2b-M118 in 6.8% (6/88) and haplogroup A3b2*-M13(xA3b2a-M171, A3b2b-M118) in 5.7% (5/88) of a mixed sample of Ethiopians, amounting to a total of 12.5% (11/88) A3b2-M13.[17]

Haplogroup A-M13 also has been observed occasionally outside of Central and Eastern Africa, as in the Aegean Region of Turkey (2/30 = 6.7%[37]), Yemenite Jews (1/20 = 5%[19]), Egypt (4/147 = 2.7%,[22] 3/92 = 3.3%[14]), Palestinian Arabs (2/143 = 1.4%[38]), Sardinia (1/77 = 1.3%,[39] 1/22 = 4.5%[17]), the capital of Jordan, Amman (1/101=1%[40]), and Oman (1/121 = 0.8%[22]).

Haplogroup A-M13 has been found among three Neolithic period fossils excavated from the Kadruka site in Sudan.[41]

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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xyyman does what Clyde does.

You look at a chart of a hundred different groups in various places in the world with the same paragroup.


Then you pick a place you like and say the haplogroup originated there and hide the rest
Then pick another group on the list and then say there is some special relationship there to the first group and then you can make up whatever migratory story you want.


 -


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] I am ALWAYS on the money but sometimes I think English is not your first language. I said E1b1b found in South Africans/Khoi_Sans are paraclades to those found in Berbers. Then you repeat what I just said like you are making a point. Who said one is ancestral to the other? I haven’t looked at the Tree for yDNA-A recently but I also believe both a siblings or paraclades.

 -

I am always spot on!! ALWAYS. I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!!!


xyyamn is so wacky he puts up this chart debunking himself thinking it backs up what he said
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
My Point. The root of the yDNA(A) is found from Southern Europe to the Levant. Yes, Khoi-San related peoples occupied North Africa, Southern Europe and the Levant.


Cruciani F, Trombetta B, Massaia A, Destro-Bisol G, Sellitto D, Scozzari R (June 2011). "A revised root for the human Y chromosomal phylogenetic tree: the origin of patrilineal diversity in Africa"


Wiki -
A0-P305[edit]
A0 or A1b-P305 is found only in Bakola Pygmies (South Cameroon) at 8.3% and Berbers from Algeria at 1.5%.[5 (Cruiciani et al 2011)] Also found in Ghana.[6]

Africa —Northern[edit]
The subclade A1 has been observed in Moroccan Berbers, while the subclade A3b2 has been observed in approximately 3% of Egyptian males.

Africa —Southern[edit]
One study has found haplogroup A in samples of various Khoisan-speaking tribes with frequency ranging from 10% to 70%.[14] Surprisingly, this particular haplogroup was not found in a sample of the Hadzabe from Tanzania, a population traditionally considered an ancient remnant of Khoisans due to the presence of click consonants in their language.

Eurasia[edit]
Haplogroup A has been observed as A1 in European men in England. As A3b2, it has been observed with low frequency in Asia Minor, the Middle East, and some Mediterranean islands, among Aegean Turks, Sardinians, Palestinians, Jordanians,**** Yemenites***** and Omanis. Without testing for any subclade, haplogroup A has been observed in a sample of Greeks from Mitilini on the Aegean island of Lesvos[25] and in samples of Portuguese from southern Portugal, central Portugal, and Madeira.[26] The authors of one study have reported finding what appears to be haplogroup A in 3.1% (2/65) of a sample of Cypriots,[27] though they have not definitively excluded the possibility that either of these individuals may belong to haplogroup B or haplogroup C.

M51[edit]
The subclade A1b1b2a-M51 (formerly A3b1) occurs most frequently among Khoisan peoples (6/11 = 55% Nama,[14] 11/39 = 28% Khoisan,[17] 7/32 = 22% !Kung/Sekele,[14] 6/29 = 21% Tsumkwe San,[14] 1/18 = 6% Dama[14]). However, it also has been found with lower frequency among Bantu peoples of Southern Africa, including 2/28 = 7% Sotho–Tswana,[14] 3/53 = 6% non-Khoisan Southern Africans,[17] 4/80 = 5% Xhosa,[14] and 1/29 = 3% Zulu.[14]

M13[edit]
The subclade A1b1b2b-M13 (formerly A3b2) is primarily distributed among Nilotic populations in East Africa and northern Cameroon. It is different from the A subclades that are found in the Khoisan samples and only remotely related to them (it is actually only one of many subclades within haplogroup A). This finding suggests an ancient divergence.

In Sudan, haplogroup A-M13 has been found in 28/53 = 52.8% of Southern Sudanese, 13/28 = 46.4% of the Nuba of central Sudan, 25/90 = 27.8% of Western Sudanese, 4/32 = 12.5% of local Hausa people, and 5/216 = 2.3% of Northern Sudanese.[36]

In Ethiopia, one study has reported finding haplogroup A-M13 in 14.6% (7/48) of a sample of Amhara and 10.3% (8/78) of a sample of Oromo.[21] Another study has reported finding haplogroup A3b2b-M118 in 6.8% (6/88) and haplogroup A3b2*-M13(xA3b2a-M171, A3b2b-M118) in 5.7% (5/88) of a mixed sample of Ethiopians, amounting to a total of 12.5% (11/88) A3b2-M13.[17]

Haplogroup A-M13 also has been observed occasionally outside of Central and Eastern Africa, as in the Aegean Region of Turkey (2/30 = 6.7%[37]), Yemenite Jews (1/20 = 5%[19]), Egypt (4/147 = 2.7%,[22] 3/92 = 3.3%[14]), Palestinian Arabs (2/143 = 1.4%[38]), Sardinia (1/77 = 1.3%,[39] 1/22 = 4.5%[17]), the capital of Jordan, Amman (1/101=1%[40]), and Oman (1/121 = 0.8%[22]).

Haplogroup A-M13 has been found among three Neolithic period fossils excavated from the Kadruka site in Sudan.[41] [/QB]

Here xyyman pointlessly bolds each group mentioned as if he has discovered something.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

My Point. The root of the yDNA(A) is found from Southern Europe to the Levant. Yes, Khoi-San related peoples occupied North Africa, Southern Europe and the Levant.

Then he picks out a couple, disregards the rest and tries to create a migration narrative cutting out all the in between stuff to make story of how southern Europeans are Khosians.
It's very silly

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xyyman
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now...who is talking to himself?

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Jerking off in the dark? Enjoy it! This is basic stuff.

yDNA A the basal form of the male line is found thoughout Africa and regions near Africa like Southern “European” Islands like Sardinia, Greece, Cyprus etc. Including Levant and Southern Arabia. The Berbers carry sibling or paraclades found in South Africans/Khoi-San. In addition Looking at the older PN2/E-215 again you see a similarity in paraclades between North Africans and Khoi-Sans. All this supports the view proposed by me and suggested by Coon. That Khoi-San like people probably occupied All of Africa and near by region. Dr Winters proposed that Grimaldi was Khoi-san. He may be right.

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What is he saying here? Haplogroup A found in Sardinia is specific to Sardinia and NOT Africa. Indicative of an VERY ancient presence in…… “Europe” lol! Irregardless to what you believe yDNA A is pervasive in North Africa probably going back to the Pleistocene…as Coon suggested. I was on the band wagon when I did not understand Coon…hating what I did not understand based on what other posters said about him . When I finally read his book I realize he was partly right. Ignore the labels “Caucasoid” and “Negroids”. But his general thought were on the right track. Coon clearly stated that Neolithics are either SSA from Sudan or Yemenis. Sergi suggested the same thing. He suggest the modern West Africans are part of that Neolithic package which admixed with pygmies. In other words his view is modern West Africans are part “Caucasoids” and part pygmy. See OP with Dienekess statement about an older AMH that existed in SSA and with the Sahara emerging yDNA E-M2 was pushed South.

As I said E-M2 is new to West Africa. Is the “older” population R1b-V88 which is OLDER than E-M2? I don’t know.

Are they trying to invent multi-regionalism in Africa? Clearly there was substructure.

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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I am ALWAYS on the money but sometimes I think English is not your first language. I said E1b1b found in South Africans/Khoi_Sans are paraclades to those found in Berbers. Then you repeat what I just said like you are making a point. Who said one is ancestral to the other?

[/QB][/QUOTE]

You are not on the money, You are getting owned by Lioness. Also you are misusing the word "Paraclade".

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What was previously E-M35* found in South African click speakers was resolved to a downstream mutation E-M293. Which is a subclade of E-V1515. Which is a subcalde of E-Z830.
The phylogeny is as follows : M215 > M35> Z827 > Z830 > V1515 > V1486 > M293.

Berber's E-M81 is on a totally different unrelated branch that split 10's of thousands of years prior.
Its Phylogeny is as follows:
M215 > M35> Z827 > V257 > M81

They share the upstream E-Z827 ancestor which is the Brother clade of V68.
This split happened 20-25 Thousand years ago. M293 found in South Africans brok off about 3500 years ago, POST MOTA.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] I am ALWAYS on the money but sometimes I think English is not your first language. I said E1b1b found in South Africans/Khoi_Sans are paraclades to those found in Berbers. Then you repeat what I just said like you are making a point. Who said one is ancestral to the other? I haven’t looked at the Tree for yDNA-A recently but I also believe both a siblings or paraclades.

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I am always spot on!! ALWAYS. I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!!!


xyyman what is wrong with you?

This shows M215/ M35 originating in the horn

downstream is M293 found in a Khoisan group although on the whole they are A and B carriers
M293 is a mutation of M35 that occurred in the southern half of Africa


Many thousands of miles away and few sub clade mutations later we find M81

The root is the horn, so stop wasting people's time.

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
------


As I said, don’t fugk with me if you don’t know what you are talking about. SMH.

All of Haplogroup A is not the Same just as all of E is not the same.
At this point there are 4 known groups of A carriers. With an origin reaching back 300-400kya.
A00 is the A* listed on the map.
A1 in Red is generally West African (Senegambian) specific but pots up around the globe.
A2 is generally South African specific.


That leaves A3. The old lineages shared between South Africans and East Africans. The separation time between the East African and Southern African lineages has a split time 90 Thousand years. Its somewhat similar to The maternal L0a/b/f and L0k/d that unites the East and West................Sure its "Related" but the split is pushing 100 thousand years. Much of the Haplogroup A that is found in the Mediterranean is of the East African Subclade that has a General Nile Basin/Valley spread which peaks in Nilotics.


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I still don't get what point you are trying to make. You are agreeing with me. THEY ARE NOT ANCESTRAL TO ONE ANOTHER THE ARE PARAGROUPS/SIBLINGS/PARACLADES. Would you stop your childish tantrum!! And pissing contest!

The only thing I dis-agree with and would like you to provide proof is the AGES you stated?

QUOTE
They share the upstream E-Z827 ancestor which is the Brother clade of V68.
This split happened 20-25 Thousand years ago. M293 found in South Africans brok off about 3500 years ago, POST MOTA.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Source?

quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
------


As I said, don’t fugk with me if you don’t know what you are talking about. SMH.

All of



 -



--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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The Khoisans are A and B carriers

In couple groups E was introduced from the horn to South Africa

/close thread

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I still don't get what point you are trying to make. You are agreeing with me. THEY ARE NOT ANCESTRAL TO ONE ANOTHER THE ARE PARAGROUPS/SIBLINGS/PARACLADES. Would you stop your childish tantrum!! And pissing contest!

You are misusing the term "Paraclade and Paragroups".

The term "Paraclade" or "Paragroup" denotes the Ancestral state "*" and the parental phylogeny in reference to the most recent common ancestor. WAY back, 10 years ago, at low resolution YES, we thought that Southern Africans carried the same "Paraclade" / Ancestral lineage as Horn Africans (E-M35*) hence they would be ancestral to Berber's E-M81. With more resolution this is not the case. You cannot say "PARAGROUPS/SIBLINGS/PARACLADES" because 2 of them mean the same thing while "Siblings" is mutually exclusive of other two.

Why are you still saying they are siblings? This is NOT semantics. And if you knew this infomration you wouldny make the argument you are making in reference to South African Haplogroup E.

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xyyman
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Interesting chart. Never seen it before. But again it makes my point. Green(East Africa/South African) and Red(Maghreb) are paragroups or siblings. ONE IS NOT ANCESTRAL TO THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!! What ties this together is the Blue(Cape Verde!!!), I hope Capra is . reading this. Notice Cape Verde carry BOTH Blue and Red and not Green. Wow! See Capra. That is the smoking gun I was trying to get my hands on. As I said Cape Verde is a relict population and has nothing to do with modern European colonization. They carry both Berbers and South African colors. Did I tell you that Cape Verdeans are Berbers and a relict left over from WHG. Damn!

Bottomline, this chart not only makes my point but highlights another point I made to Capra on Davidiski. Cape Verdeans are a very ancient population. They carry Berber(Red) and South African (Blue) markers.


Source of the chart???????


edit - I got it. Yorkshire man. On it!

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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wikipedia

Bearers of haplogroup A (i.e. absence of the defining mutation of haplogroup BT) have been found in Southern Africa's hunter-gatherers, especially among the San people. In addition, the most basal mitochondrial DNA lineages are also largely restricted to the San. However, the A lineages of Southern Africa are sub-clades of A lineages found in other parts of Africa, suggesting that A sub-haplogroups arrived in Southern Africa from elsewhere.[4] The two most basal lineages of Haplogroup A, A0 and A1 (prior to the announcement of the discovery of haplogroup A00 in 2013), have been detected in West Africa, Northwest Africa and Central Africa. Cruciani et al. (2011) suggest that these lineages may have emerged somewhere in between Central and Northwest Africa.[5] Scozzari et al. (2012) also supported "the hypothesis of an origin in the north-western quadrant of the African continent for the A1b [ i.e. A0 ] haplogroup".[6]

[4]Batini C, Ferri G, Destro-Bisol G, et al. (September 2011). "Signatures of the preagricultural peopling processes in sub-Saharan Africa as revealed by the phylogeography of early Y chromosome lineages

[5] Cruciani F, Trombetta B, Massaia A, Destro-Bisol G, Sellitto D, Scozzari R (June 2011). "A revised root for the human Y chromosomal phylogenetic tree: the origin of patrilineal diversity in Africa"

[6]Scozzari R, Massaia A, D'Atanasio E, et al. (2012). "Molecular dissection of the basal clades in the human Y chromosome phylogenetic tree"

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