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Author Topic: Northeast African variation shaped by indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations
Elmaestro
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Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations
Nina Hollfelder, Carina M. Schlebusch, Torsten Günther, Hiba Babiker, Hisham Y. Hassan, Mattias Jakobsson
Published: August 24, 2017
https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976[/i]
quote:
Northeast Africa has a long history of human habitation, with fossil-finds from the earliest anatomically modern humans, and housing ancient civilizations. The region is also the gate-way out of Africa, as well as a portal for migration into Africa from Eurasia via the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula. We investigate the population history of northeast Africa by genotyping ~3.9 million SNPs in 221 individuals from 18 populations sampled in Sudan and South Sudan and combine this data with published genome-wide data from surrounding areas. We find a strong genetic divide between the populations from the northeastern parts of the region (Nubians, central Arab populations, and the Beja) and populations towards the west and south (Nilotes, Darfur and Kordofan populations). This differentiation is mainly caused by a large Eurasian ancestry component of the northeast populations likely driven by migration of Middle Eastern groups followed by admixture that affected the local populations in a north-to-south succession of events. Genetic evidence points to an early admixture event in the Nubians, concurrent with historical contact between North Sudanese and Arab groups. [We estimate the admixture in current-day Sudanese Arab populations to about 700 years ago, coinciding with the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316 AD, a wave of admixture that reached the Darfurian/Kordofanian populations some 400–200 years ago. In contrast to the northeastern populations, the current-day Nilotic populations from the south of the region display little or no admixture from Eurasian groups indicating long-term isolation and population continuity in these areas of northeast Africa.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976
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Elmaestro
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quick gatherings

-East African Hausa Non African geneflow predates their settlement in sudan

-Genetic Variation has a higher correlation with Geography than language family.

-Nilotes show signs of retaining ancestral signatures for Northeast african population and endogamy, with little admixture from non nilotic populations.

-Of the native populations in sudan, Nubians show the highest amount of Eurasian admixture & heterogenousity.

-Copts are ~70% european.... not Eurasian....European

This is prereviewed so wording might change in the future.

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beyoku
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NIce.
Digging in.

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Thereal
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-Copts are ~70% european.... not Eurasian....European
that is interesting as from what I've gathered from here the original Copts are a African group that becamed mixed with Europeans in ancient so what is to be made of the "Eurasian" admixture?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
-Copts are ~70% european.... not Eurasian....European
that is interesting as from what I've gathered from here the original Copts are a African group that becamed mixed with Europeans in ancient so what is to be made of the "Eurasian" admixture?

.


.

why are you just mentioning the Copts?

It says

Egyptians - 70.65% European ancestry
Copts - 69.54% European ancestry

quote:


A formal test (D(Juhoansi,X;Egypt,Copt)), did not find significant admixture into the Egyptians from other tested groups (X) as the explanation of the (admittedly low level of) differentiation between the two groups, and the Copts and Egyptians displayed similar levels of European or Middle Eastern ancestry (S8A and S8B Fig).


Our results instead indicate that they are an admixed population of at least one sub-Saharan population and one Eurasian population, but had subsequent admixture with additional groups. The population tree that has the most support finds the Nuer (Nilotic) as an outgroup to the Bedouin and Copts (D(Juhoansi,Nuer;Bedouin,Copts) = 0.0103, Z = 5.550).
The Copts were estimated to be of 69.54% +/- 2.57 European ancestry
and the Egyptians of 70.65% +/- 2.47 European ancestry





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Askia_The_Great
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All this makes sense and I am GLAD they take into consideration of the historical events which many does do not do for Africa for some reason.

Good shit as always Elmaestro.

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Thereal
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What am I making up? As the stuff I'm reading about them implies they were already in Egypt.
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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
-Copts are ~70% european.... not Eurasian....European

stop making up stuff, thanks
He isn't... The Author said so.

quote:
Our results instead indicate that they are an admixed population of at least one sub-Saharan population and one Eurasian population, but had subsequent admixture with additional groups. The population tree that has the most support finds the Nuer (Nilotic) as an outgroup to the Bedouin and Copts (D(Juhoansi,Nuer;Bedouin,Copts) = 0.0103, Z = 5.550). The Copts were estimated to be of 69.54% +/- 2.57 European ancestry and the Egyptians of 70.65% +/- 2.47 European ancestry

However, I think that wording might get changed. She used reads from a European population in ADMIXTURE to determine the Eurasian affinity of the Copts as well as F stats with Ancient Europeans and looked at Neanderthal proportions. and also regardless, the copts are not ~30 SSA....

 -

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
All this makes sense and I am GLAD they take into consideration of the historical events which many does do not do for Africa for some reason.

Good shit as always Elmaestro.

aye, it better make sense to you of all people or we fist fighting! lmao... you can even argue that they are holding back... considering that they were working with ancient samples and all, and what we know might be the resolution.
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xyyman
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So that is the new tactic now. Since SSA carry "Eurasian" ancestry , exlplain it with back migration when there are no uniparental markers to support such claim. They are using FREQUENCY again I would bet.


--


Reading the summary Elmaestro. It is not what you think. I myself got caught in the sensationalism title without reading.
1. It is supporting the fact the Ancient Egyptians are Sudanese sand they occupied regions along the Nile BEFORE the Arab conquest about 700AD.


Is this a rebuttal to Abusir paper? Lol!

Man you people are like whores. SMH

-----
Authors summary
This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile. Nilotic populations occupying the region around the
White Nile show long-term continuity, genetic isolation and genetic links to ancestral East African people. Compared to current times, groups that are ancestral to the current day
Nilotes likely inhabited a larger area of northeast Africa prior to the migration from the Middle East as their ancestry component can still be found in a large area. Our findings
reveal the genetic history of Sudanese and South Sudanese people, broaden our knowledge on demographic history of humans, and quantify the impact of large-scale historic
migration events in northeast Africa.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
All this makes sense and I am GLAD they take into consideration of the historical events which many does do not do for Africa for some reason.

Good shit as always Elmaestro.

aye, it better make sense to you of all people or we fist fighting! lmao... you can even argue that they are holding back... considering that they were working with ancient samples and all, and what we know might be the resolution.
Agreed.
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xyyman
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"Eurasians" throughout Africa! Not only in North East Africa but all of Africa. So what is the point of the paper. I am waiting to see how they will lie their way through Eurasian ancestry in prehistoric Africans. Wait! Didn't they do that already . ala Mota! Mota(4000bc) carried Eurasian ancestry but they are BSing about Eurasian ancestry in 1300AD. WTF is wrong with you people?!

Another "feel good about themselves" paper for dysfunctional Europeans by equally dysfunctional Europeans.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
ala Mota! Mota(4000bc) carried Eurasian ancestry but they are BSing about Eurasian ancestry in 1300AD. WTF is wrong with you people?!


Mota did not carry Eurasian ancestry. Why is everything you say wrong?
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Punos_Rey
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I find the statement regarding contact between Arabs and Sudanese also interesting in light of the study done by Pagani and his team regarding the Egyptians

"Using ADMIXTURE17 and principal-component analysis, we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago, consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously."

Though the Abusir mummy team did attempt to dispute this

--------------------
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square.

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xyyman
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Reading the summary Elmaestro. It is not what you think. I myself got caught in the sensationalism title without reading.
1. It is supporting the fact the Ancient Egyptians are Sudanese sand they occupied regions along the Nile BEFORE the Arab conquest about 700AD.


Is this a rebuttal to Abusir paper? Lol!

Man you people are like whores. SMH

-----
Authors summary
This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile. Nilotic populations occupying the region around the
White Nile show long-term continuity, genetic isolation and genetic links to ancestral East African people. Compared to current times, groups that are ancestral to the current day
Nilotes likely inhabited a larger area of northeast Africa prior to the migration from the Middle East as their ancestry component can still be found in a large area. Our findings
reveal the genetic history of Sudanese and South Sudanese people, broaden our knowledge on demographic history of humans, and quantify the impact of large-scale historic
migration events in northeast Africa.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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^ I see the mod beat me to it. He may be useful after all.

Good point Rey. It disputes Abusir.

also
Quote:
The Nilotes are predominantly pastoralist populations, they live in Uganda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, and are the most ****PROMINENT*** ethnicity in South Sudan. They are traditionally
strongly endogamic which could account for low levels of admixture. In terms of specific Nilotic populations, the f3 test showed no significant signal of gene flow with external
populations for the Nuer and Baria (Fig 3A), however, we detected indications of external

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
I find the statement regarding contact between Arabs and Sudanese also interesting in light of the study done by Pagani and his team regarding the Egyptians

"Using ADMIXTURE17 and principal-component analysis, we estimated the average proportion of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and dated the midpoint of the admixture event by using ALDER20 to around 750 years ago, consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously."

Though the Abusir mummy team did attempt to dispute this

This is another reason why I find it interesting and why I'm glad they used historical context.

Bartender give Rey a drink. Its on me...

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Punos_Rey
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Looking at what xyyman posted about Nilote ancestors once being more widespread, it brings back to mind the study done on the people of Gurna in Upper Egypt as well as other studies citing a nilotic foundation within AE.


"The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers. This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations. Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population." 
(Stevanovitch A, Gilles A, Bouzaid E, et al. (2004) Mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity in a sedentary population from Egypt.Ann Hum Genet. 68(Pt 1):23-39.)

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Reading the summary Elmaestro. It is not what you think. I myself got caught in the sensationalism title without reading.
1. It is supporting the fact the Ancient Egyptians are Sudanese sand they occupied regions along the Nile BEFORE the Arab conquest about 700AD.


Is this a rebuttal to Abusir paper? Lol!

Man you people are like whores. SMH

-----
Authors summary
This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile. Nilotic populations occupying the region around the
White Nile show long-term continuity, genetic isolation and genetic links to ancestral East African people. Compared to current times, groups that are ancestral to the current day
Nilotes likely inhabited a larger area of northeast Africa prior to the migration from the Middle East as their ancestry component can still be found in a large area. Our findings
reveal the genetic history of Sudanese and South Sudanese people, broaden our knowledge on demographic history of humans, and quantify the impact of large-scale historic
migration events in northeast Africa.

This paper lacks congruence to the history and archaeology of the Sudan. For example, the Nuba did not enter Egypt in Dynastic times. It appears that they entered Sudan in Roman times and were in constant conflict with the Meroitic people who pushed westward into West Africa by the Nuba.

The whole idea of an Eurasian farmer migration back into Africa lacks any archaeological evidence. In addition. the Eurasian farmers carried R1b1 and R1b1a which are nothing more than V88 clades. The migration of Africans into Africa is supported by archaeological evidence.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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xyyman
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For those who did not get it. Notice the groups to identified. Remember I said the Abusir mummies are Kenyans, Tanzanians, Sudanese and my man's...Horners..

Quote:"The Nilotes are predominantly pastoralist populations, they live in Uganda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, and are the most ****PROMINENT*** ethnicity in South Sudan"

I love being right!

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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BTW - To Rey's point on Pagani(?)s paper. Remember my argument the timing was more along Ottoman Turk ie 1300AD rather than Islamic invasion supposed about 600AD. "Arab" conquest never happened. There is no genetic proof. But the Turks did invade. Ask Henn

Am I on point again Beyoku?

Mod-

Tone down with the language. LAST warning.


[ 25. August 2017, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Elite Diasporan ]

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

"Arab" conquest never happened. There is no genetic proof. But the Turks did invade.

Haologroups of the Arabian peninsula are also found in North Africa so you can't say that.

You could try to argue that such haplogroups originate in North Africa and North Africans brought them to Saudi Arabia but if so that does not prove that there was not an invasion by Arabs beginning in the 7th century.

At best if that were true you could only say that you can't tell by genetics if there was or there wasn't an invasion by Arabs.
So to say genetic evidence proves there was no Arabian invasion of North Africa is a unqualified

However the oldest remains carrying J1 were found in Satsurblia cave (c. 13200 BCE) in Georgia a country of the caucus region (Jones et al. (2015))
so you can't even make the claim that J1 is African

The situation is obvious
Indigenous YDNA of North Africa is haplogroup E not J
and the J1 in the Maghreb shows little diversity.

E1b1b is also common on the Arabian peninsula.
And it is also common in the North Africa.
The fact that it is common in both of these areas and even if it originates in North Africa does not mean a historical event did not occur. It does not mean Arabs did not take over North Africa. Yet your non-sequiturs, false statements keep manifesting.

There are about 10 Arabic speaking countries in Africa. That did not coma about by Africans saying to themselves, damn we just love that Arabian culture so much.
It came about by armies coming into Egypt and North Africa. They didn't have to go to war in every case. Sometimes when an invading army comes into a people's territory if they think they have no chance some will fight and die out of pride but others will simply let them do what they want and try to make the best of it.

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xyyman
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There was never any "Arab" or Islamic invasion. Islamic customs was existence in North Africa and Southern Europe BEFORE Mohammed was even born. There was never Arab invasion. In fact MANY genetics studies confirmed that I am right. Added to that the "Arabs" were never expelled FROM Iberia. There is no genetic proof. Sources cited. More lies by Europeans.

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Askia_The_Great
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There was an Arab invasion of Christian Nubia[Makuria] by the Arab Rashidun Caliphate. The Rashidun Caliphate got whooped in both battles of the Dongola war and a peace treaty was signed. After the war Arabs slowly trickled in and married their way into the culture. Most of the relations was Arab men and Nubian women. This is why the majority modern day Sudanese paternal lineages are Middle Eastern J and their maternal lineages are African.

Egypt is a different story. Arabs were invited in to defeat the Byzantines if I remember correctly.

Northwest Africa was another different story. There WAS a Arab conquest of Northwest Africa. However, Northwest Africa was sparsely populated and there was not a strong Arab settlement in Northwest Africa like there was with Egypt and Sudan. Most Northwest African Eurasian admixture seems to be mostly European. Hell their paternal lineages is mostly African while their maternal is mostly European.

The historical background of North Africa is not monolithic just like with their genetic history.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Islamic customs was existence in North Africa and Southern Europe BEFORE Mohammed was even born.

That is complete nonsense. Prior to the mid 7th century Africans did not practice Islam.
Did you know that?

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xyyman
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missing the underlying point. The "history" books are filled with lies!!!!! There is no genetic proof of "Arabs' Invading North Africa.....nein. There is genetic proof of Ottoman Turks invading. J1 has been in Africa since the Pleistocene.

What are the male and female lineage of Arabs from Arabia in North Africa?

[ 26. August 2017, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] missing the underlying point. The "history" books are filled with lies!!!!! There is no genetic proof of "Arabs' Invading North Africa.....nein. he Tre is genetic proof of Ottoman Turks invading. J1 has been in Africa since the Pleistocene.


If J1 has been in Africa since the Pleistocene that does not mean Arabs did not invade North Africa.

Do you understand that? Or is logic too much for you?

The evidence is historically documented (something you know nothing about), evident in the language and religion and architecture (more things you haven't got a clue about)

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
-Copts are ~70% european.... not Eurasian....European
that is interesting as from what I've gathered from here the original Copts are a African group that becamed mixed with Europeans in ancient so what is to be made of the "Eurasian" admixture?

.


.

why are you just mentioning the Copts?

It says

Egyptians - 70.65% European ancestry
Copts - 69.54% European ancestry

quote:


A formal test (D(Juhoansi,X;Egypt,Copt)), did not find significant admixture into the Egyptians from other tested groups (X) as the explanation of the (admittedly low level of) differentiation between the two groups, and the Copts and Egyptians displayed similar levels of European or Middle Eastern ancestry (S8A and S8B Fig).


Our results instead indicate that they are an admixed population of at least one sub-Saharan population and one Eurasian population, but had subsequent admixture with additional groups. The population tree that has the most support finds the Nuer (Nilotic) as an outgroup to the Bedouin and Copts (D(Juhoansi,Nuer;Bedouin,Copts) = 0.0103, Z = 5.550).
The Copts were estimated to be of 69.54% +/- 2.57 European ancestry
and the Egyptians of 70.65% +/- 2.47 European ancestry





Forgive me for I haven't read the study in detail yet but how does this fit with the Nature study on the Abusir mummies? According to the latter modern Egyptians are more sub-Saharan tha the ancients.
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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Looking at what xyyman posted about Nilote ancestors once being more widespread, it brings back to mind the study done on the people of Gurna in Upper Egypt as well as other studies citing a nilotic foundation within AE.


"The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers. This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations. Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population." 
(Stevanovitch A, Gilles A, Bouzaid E, et al. (2004) Mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity in a sedentary population from Egypt.Ann Hum Genet. 68(Pt 1):23-39.)

I know Swenet has cited a study by Becker on remains from Wadi Howar (which lies in the Sahara southwest of Nubia) several times before. Those remains showed "sub-Saharan" affinities similar to those of modern Nilotic populations, but I am pretty sure that they nonetheless appeared distinct from "biologically North African" remains like those of the Nubian A-Group (who we know are related to southern AE).

--------------------
Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher

My art thread on ES

And my books thread

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xyyman
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I have to apologize to the author. I myself lost my head and did not read the title for what it is........

"Northeast African variation shaped by indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations"

It is a rebuttal to Abusir. The author is stating that North East African are primarily indigenous Africans. And that later on (circa 700AD), The "Arabs" brought in Eurasian ancestry. My bad Nina Hollfielder and Mattias Jakobson. But the title was a "bait" title

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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ElMaestro thanks for posting. I think.


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I have to apologize to the author. I myself lost my head and did not read the title for what it is........

"Northeast African variation shaped by indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations"

It is a rebuttal to Abusir. The author is stating that North East African are primarily indigenous Africans. And that later on (circa 700AD), The "Arabs" brought in Eurasian ancestry. My bad Nina Hollfielder and Mattias Jakobson. But the title was a "bait" title



--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Djehuti
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^ I get the "indigenous" part, but what does that say then in regards to the Abusir study saying modern populations differ from the mummies in having greater "sub-Saharan" affinities since Hassan makes it clear that indigenous in regards to North Africa does not mean "sub-Saharan" as T-hotep pointed out.

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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

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xyyman
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^I see that my previous reply got deleted. This p get's under my skin!

Anyways.

You know you are a undercover Eurocentric racialist. You never had me fooled. To put it nicely. Isn't Tanzania, Uganda, South Sudan and Ethiopia considered Sub-Saharan. But Like many racist you only considered Nigeria SSA. You never had me fooled.

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Linda Fahr
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I think Eastern and North African DNA contamination possibly started after the Battle of Kadesh between Egypt and Hittites in 1274 BC. The Hittites were already trading and living in the Levant and Middle Eastern regions by that time. And about the Phoenicians? In accordance to Herodotus quotes, they originated in the Red Sea. If it was true,is possible a second contamination of Eastern African Natives DNA by Middle Easterners occurred by the time Phoenicians started their extensive trade across the Red Sea into East Africa and and later on, built their colonies in North Africa in about 800BC. *(the contamination mentioned by me is from their Neanderthal DNA frequency content). Then, the third contamination occurred when the Neo-Assyrian King Asarhaddon conquered Egypt from King Taharka in 671BC. Therefore, middle eastern DNA contamination in Eastern and North Africa for sure first occurred during these ancient dates.

I also had observed an ancient Eurasian group, which settled in Berdyansk and Kremenets in Ukraine. They left behind many stone sculptures of themselves, which in my opinion have mixed Africoid and Mongoloid facial symmetry which I don't have any solid chronological data of it's age. Some said they belong to the Kurgan Culture, however I can trace their origins by observation of their art form, from a Monolithic city located in an Island in the coast of South Korea named Jeju which 99% of it's ancient human sculptures have an Africoid facial symmetry. No doubt they were from Africa. Sincerely, I think they migrated back into Eurasia as a mixed race of mongoloid and africoid people in two segments - one after Chinese invasion of Jeju, and later on during the invasion of the Jeju Island by the Mongols, which committed horrifying genocide killing thousands of them. After they left Jeju Island, some settled in the mainland, others migrated to Eurasia,and Europe -Russia,Ukraine,Ireland and Scotland Highlands, where I can see their stone art work style and physical characteristics all over the place until the first monasteries were built in these regions during high middle Ages. There are many of their art work in those regions made by the time they became Christians as well.

By the way, the Eurasian introduction of farming in the Middle East and Africa, is the most "RIDICULOUS" and "GROSS" European theory I ever read.

I will be pleased if Mr.Clyde Winters could give me some additional information about ancient African settlement, and the monolithic city they built in the Jeju Island in South Korea. I haven't see any mention of it in his Youtube videos, or in any of his books. But, if is there in any of your books mentions of this amazing ancient eastern Asian African city of Jeju, may you please tell me the name of your book which has the contents. In accordance to the majority of archaeologists, the City of Jeju needs more excavations, because there is no solid information of when it was built. All they know, including the Korean people is based on legendary oral tales.

--------------------
---lnnnnn*

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xyyman
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^^^
Das et al.....The Near East and Levant were occupied by African/Saharo-Arabians until the Asian Ottoman Turks invaded from about 1300AD.

The remnants are Yeminis and Bedoiuns of Arabia. That is why ALL DNA studies MUST and DO include Bediouns. Don't you get that? These researchers know this.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Linda Fahr:


By the way, the Eurasian introduction of farming in the Middle East and Africa, is the most "RIDICULOUS" and "GROSS" European theory I ever read.


 -

The Middle East is in Eurasia

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Linda Fahr:
I think Eastern and North African DNA contamination possibly started after the Battle of Kadesh between Egypt and Hittites in 1274 BC.

Contamination is when some DNA from an extraneous source, such as a person working in the lab, gets into your sample.

People of different origins having kids is not contamination. Unless you are some kind of fucking Nazi.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
^^^
Das et al.....The Near East and Levant were occupied by African/Saharo-Arabians until the Asian Ottoman Turks invaded from about 1300AD.

The remnants are Yeminis and Bedoiuns of Arabia. That is why ALL DNA studies MUST and DO include Bediouns. Don't you get that? These researchers know this.

where is the highest diversity of J1?

i'll wait....

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Linda Fahr:
I think Eastern and North African DNA contamination possibly started after the Battle of Kadesh between Egypt and Hittites in 1274 BC. The Hittites were already trading and living in the Levant and Middle Eastern regions by that time. And about the Phoenicians? In accordance to Herodotus quotes, they originated in the Red Sea. If it was true,is possible a second contamination of Eastern African Natives DNA by Middle Easterners occurred by the time Phoenicians started their extensive trade across the Red Sea into East Africa and and later on, built their colonies in North Africa in about 800BC. *(the contamination mentioned by me is from their Neanderthal DNA frequency content). Then, the third contamination occurred when the Neo-Assyrian King Asarhaddon conquered Egypt from King Taharka in 671BC. Therefore, middle eastern DNA contamination in Eastern and North Africa for sure first occurred during these ancient dates.

I also had observed an ancient Eurasian group, which settled in Berdyansk and Kremenets in Ukraine. They left behind many stone sculptures of themselves, which in my opinion have mixed Africoid and Mongoloid facial symmetry which I don't have any solid chronological data of it's age. Some said they belong to the Kurgan Culture, however I can trace their origins by observation of their art form, from a Monolithic city located in an Island in the coast of South Korea named Jeju which 99% of it's ancient human sculptures have an Africoid facial symmetry. No doubt they were from Africa. Sincerely, I think they migrated back into Eurasia as a mixed race of mongoloid and africoid people in two segments - one after Chinese invasion of Jeju, and later on during the invasion of the Jeju Island by the Mongols, which committed horrifying genocide killing thousands of them. After they left Jeju Island, some settled in the mainland, others migrated to Eurasia,and Europe -Russia,Ukraine,Ireland and Scotland Highlands, where I can see their stone art work style and physical characteristics all over the place until the first monasteries were built in these regions during high middle Ages. There are many of their art work in those regions made by the time they became Christians as well.

By the way, the Eurasian introduction of farming in the Middle East and Africa, is the most "RIDICULOUS" and "GROSS" European theory I ever read.

I will be pleased if Mr.Clyde Winters could give me some additional information about ancient African settlement, and the monolithic city they built in the Jeju Island in South Korea. I haven't see any mention of it in his Youtube videos, or in any of his books. But, if is there in any of your books mentions of this amazing ancient eastern Asian African city of Jeju, may you please tell me the name of your book which has the contents. In accordance to the majority of archaeologists, the City of Jeju needs more excavations, because there is no solid information of when it was built. All they know, including the Korean people is based on legendary oral tales.

Sorry, I don't know anything about Jeju Island.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Linda Fahr
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TO Mr. Clyde Winters

This link has over 100 pictures of Jeju Island located in the coast of South Korea.

I am sure you will like it. Americans and many other countries don't need Visa to visit Jeju Island because it is considered to be International region by United Nations.
Only people that are from countries with have internal conflicts or war, such as, Sudan, Libya, Syria, Nigeria, Macedonia and few others need visa. All you need is a valid passport.

Sorry, I don't have any further information beside internet pictures.

Thank you very much for your reply.

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g297885-d2204929-i138798922-Jeju_Stone_Park-Jeju_Jeju_Island.html

--------------------
---lnnnnn*

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To the lioness

Physiographically, the concept of the map you posted is accepted academically. Any child from Middle School knows that.

I addressed the European theory which says that farming was introduced and spread into the Middle East(Mesopotamia), Europe and Africa by Eurasian Indo-European speaking peoples from the step of Central Asia and settlers from the Balkans. Unless you don't consider peoples from these regions to be Eurasians?

In reference to the term(contamination) linguistically, it also means "process of forming blends). Now, you have the rights to our own technical interpretation as you wish.

--------------------
---lnnnnn*

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Linda Fahr:


I addressed the European theory which says that farming was introduced and spread into the Middle East(Mesopotamia), Europe and Africa by Eurasian Indo-European speaking peoples from the step of Central Asia and settlers from the Balkans.

That is incorrect. The traditional European theory is that farming began in the Levant and Anatolia not in the steppes of Central Asia
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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Linda Fahr:
snip wrong

you could spend five minutes looking things up, realize you are completely wrong, admit it, and try to participate in the actual discussion here

or you could dig yourself in deeper out of misplaced pride

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Linda Fahr:
To the lioness

Physiographically, the concept of the map you posted is accepted academically. Any child from Middle School knows that.

I addressed the European theory which says that farming was introduced and spread into the Middle East(Mesopotamia), Europe and Africa by Eurasian Indo-European speaking peoples from the step of Central Asia and settlers from the Balkans. Unless you don't consider peoples from these regions to be Eurasians?

In reference to the term(contamination) linguistically, it also means "process of forming blends). Now, you have the rights to our own technical interpretation as you wish.

You are correct the contemporary Europeans originated in Central Asia. Mark and Mike proved this point years ago.

Modern researchers attempt to situate the origin of contemporary Europeans in the Levant and Anatolia but these people living in West Asia, were Kushites--not Indo European speakers. Check out this paper: http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Linda Fahr:
[qb] To the lioness

Physiographically, the concept of the map you posted is accepted academically. Any child from Middle School knows that.

I addressed the European theory which says that farming was introduced and spread into the Middle East(Mesopotamia), Europe and Africa by Eurasian Indo-European speaking peoples from the step of Central Asia and settlers from the Balkans. Unless you don't consider peoples from these regions to be Eurasians?

In reference to the term(contamination) linguistically, it also means "process of forming blends). Now, you have the rights to our own technical interpretation as you wish.

You are correct the contemporary Europeans originated in Central Asia. Mark and Mike proved this point years ago.


She didn't say anything about where Europeans originated. The subject was where farming originated.

You can't be the real Clyde winters.
According to the real Clyde Winters Europeans are depigmented Khoisans who originated in European caves such as the Grotte de Marche in Western France, tens of thousands of years ago
Dr. Winters says that they lived in Europe in these caves for thousands of years and then left the caves traveling underground to Central Asia and leaving the caves 1400-1200 BC.
Dr. Winters says that cave drawings at Grotte de Marche show white people

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans.
Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17,000-15,000 BC:

See: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_96D2zI7_w6c/Sc4YV3c6juI/AAAAAAAAIes/kxopVZ44cdA/s1600/la+marche+faces280.jpg

 -

This 17ky cave painting appears to record the changes in the Proto-European into more 'human' like forms today.


Therefore white people are indigenous to Europe. Central Asia is merely a place where they migrated to much later if Dr. Winters is correct

Experts say that these depigmented Khoisans were forced to live underground by the Kusihites.

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Djehuti
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^ Lioness, again I ask why bother?? You can't debate with people suffering from delusions.

--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

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Thereal
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Stop exaggerating lioness Dr. Winter explains how they became white sense modern Europeans are a mixture of people coming through and people already in Europe.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
Stop exaggerating lioness Dr. Winter explains how they became white sense modern Europeans are a mixture of people coming through and people already in Europe.

I am well versed in Dr Winter's teachings. He never exaggerates
He says tens of thousands of years ago before the Kushites were in the area Khosians were in Europe and they got locked into caves such as the Grotte de Marche in France. Thousands of years later they had transformed into white people as shown on the cave walls there 17,000-15,000 BC.

That means they are depigmented Khosians not Central Asians which are connected to Europe by underground tunnels

They merely exited the caves there much later in 1400-1200 BC into Central Asia

That means Central Asians who were already there for tens of thousands of years were a different people

- before you try to bust a move wait for Dr. Winters, he will verify this and he has many posts on this, laying out the history of the white man

------------------------------------------
fall back my g

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Linda Fahr:
[qb] To the lioness

Physiographically, the concept of the map you posted is accepted academically. Any child from Middle School knows that.

I addressed the European theory which says that farming was introduced and spread into the Middle East(Mesopotamia), Europe and Africa by Eurasian Indo-European speaking peoples from the step of Central Asia and settlers from the Balkans. Unless you don't consider peoples from these regions to be Eurasians?

In reference to the term(contamination) linguistically, it also means "process of forming blends). Now, you have the rights to our own technical interpretation as you wish.

You are correct the contemporary Europeans originated in Central Asia. Mark and Mike proved this point years ago.


She didn't say anything about where Europeans originated. The subject was where farming originated.

You can't be the real Clyde winters.
According to the real Clyde Winters Europeans are depigmented Khoisans who originated in European caves such as the Grotte de Marche in Western France, tens of thousands of years ago
Dr. Winters says that they lived in Europe in these caves for thousands of years and then left the caves traveling underground to Central Asia and leaving the caves 1400-1200 BC.
Dr. Winters says that cave drawings at Grotte de Marche show white people

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The Grotte de Marche engravings show the evolution of Blacks into europeans.
Below is a Magdalenian carving from the Grotte de La Marche from 17,000-15,000 BC:

See: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_96D2zI7_w6c/Sc4YV3c6juI/AAAAAAAAIes/kxopVZ44cdA/s1600/la+marche+faces280.jpg

 -

This 17ky cave painting appears to record the changes in the Proto-European into more 'human' like forms today.


Therefore white people are indigenous to Europe. Central Asia is merely a place where they migrated to much later if Dr. Winters is correct

Experts say that these depigmented Khoisans were forced to live underground by the Kusihites.

Kushites did not force anyone to live underground. Europeans exited the caves due to tectonic events between 1400-1200 BC.

Before then, the Gutians (Syrian whites) had already began to infiltrate Anatolia.

 -
.


The Sumerians were Black. The Gutians were Southern whites or Syrian Arabs, Pashto, Kurdish, Balochi and etc.


Gutians

.
 -

Physical appearance - Wiki;

According to the historian Henry Hoyle Howorth (1901), Assyriologist Theophilus Pinches (1908), renowned archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1929) and Assyriologist Ignace Gelb (1944) the Gutians were pale skinned and blonde haired. This identification of the Gutians as fair haired first came to light when Julius Oppert (1877) published a set of tablets he had discovered which described Gutian (and Subarian) slaves as namrum or namrûtum, meaning "light colored" or "fair-skinned".

This racial character of the Gutians as blondes or being light skinned was also taken up by Georges Vacher de Lapouge in 1899 and later by historian Sidney Smith in his Early history of Assyria (1928). Ephraim Avigdor Speiser however criticised the translation of "namrum" as "light colored". An article was published by Speiser in the Journal of the American Oriental Society attacking Gelb's translation. Gelb in response accused Speiser of circular reasoning. In response Speiser claimed the scholarship regarding the translation of "namrum" or "namrûtum" is unresolved.

The art supports the view they were "light skin".

.
quote:
Originally posted November 8,2013 by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
Gutium: Gutian People, Gutian Dynasty of Sumer, Gutian Language


 -



quote:
Excerpt:


The Gutians (also Guteans or Guti) were a tribe that overran southern Mesopotamia when the Akkadian empire collapsed in approximately 2183 BC (short chronology). Sumerian sources portray the Gutians as a barbarous, ravenous people from Gutium or Qutium in the mountains, presumably the central Zagros. The Sumerian king list represents them as ruling over Sumer for a time, and paints a picture of chaos within the Gutian administration. Next to nothing is known about their origins, as no "Gutian" artifacts have surfaced from that time; little information is gleaned from the contemporary sources. Nothing is known of their language either, apart from those Sumerian king names, and that it was distinct from other major languages of the region (such as Akkadian, Hurrian, and Elamite). The Guti appear in Old Babylonian copies of inscriptions ascribed to Lugal-Anne-Mundu of Adab as among the nations providing his empire tribute. These inscriptions locate them between Subartu in the north, and Marhashe and Elam in the south. They were a prominent nomadic tribe who lived in the Zagros mountains in the time of the Akkadian Empire. Sargon the Great also mentions them among his subject lands, listing them between Lullubi, Armanu and Akkad to the north, and Nikku and Der to the south. The epic Cuthaean Legend of Naram-Sin of a later millennium mentions Gutium among the lands around Mesopotamia raided by Annubanini of Lulubum during Naram-Sin's reign in Akkad. As Akkadian might went into a decline, the Gutians began to practice hit-and-run tactics on Mesopotamia; they would be long gone by the time forces could arrive to deal with the situation. Their raids crippled the economy of Sumer.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/gutium-llc-books/1024980592?ean=9781158713295
 -
Gutian .... Sumerian..


.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Europeans exited the caves due to tectonic events between 1400-1200 BC.



^ see,

Europeans exited the Central Asian caves, They weren't Central Asians. They had been living in Europe for tens of thousands of years much later going through tunnels connecting Europe and Central Asia and they exited in Central Asia.

Therefore they were not native Central Asian steppe people

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Khoisan who entered the caves were humans. I can not guess what happened to the Cave dwelling whites that affected their facial features by 17,000 BC.

While the whites lived underground they were not interacting with humans on the surface


All the better food, nice trees, sunsets, flowers were outside the caves

So obviously the Khosians had been forced to live in the caves by Kushites. Similarly the Khosians were all up in North Africa until the Kushites forced them down into southern Africa (also an xyyman teaching)

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