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The Ghana empire, Yorubaland and Mali...how big were civilizations like these population wise?
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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desert climate of the Sahara in the north, 2- the semi-desert climate of the Sahel in the centre, with a rainy season from June to September, and rainfall going from 100 to 600 millimetres (4 to 23.5 inches) per year, 3- the tropical climate of the savanna in the south, with a more intense and a bit longer rainy season (May and October), and rainfall exceeding 600 mm (23.5 in).
Most people in Mali live in the south a tropical savannah like Bamako (1.8 million people) Timbuktu (55,000 people) has a subtropical hot desert climate
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Your talking about Mali the MODERN country. Most of the densely populated cities of Ancient Mali and Songhay were Djenne, Gao and Timbuktu which were NOT in the tropic areas but the Sahel and desert. This is why they were able to use horses so much because they didnt have to worry about the tsete flies.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
I had a map of ancient Mali, not modern Mali. Looked to at least be partially in the tropics.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: I had a map of ancient Mali, not modern Mali. Looked to at least be partially in the tropics.
If you look at various maps of the Mali empire you will see a variety of boundaries estimated
You can't look at just the map, look up each city and it's climate.
Koumbi Saleh, sometimes Kumbi Saleh is the site of a ruined medieval town in south east Mauritania that may have been the capital of the Ghana Empire.
The site lies in the Sahel region of southern Mauritania
The vegetation is low grass with thorny scrub and the occasional acacia tree. In the wet season (July–September) the limited rain fills a number of depressions, but for the rest of the year there is no rain and no surface water.
Djenné (also Djénné, Jenné and Jenne) is a town and an urban commune in the Inland Niger Delta region of central Mali. Djenné's climate is a local steppe climate. During the year there is little rainfall.
Djenné, despite its proximity, was never part of the Mali Empire. It existed as an independent city-state protected by walls and the geography of the inland delta. According to legend, the Mali Empire attempted to conquer the city 99 times before giving up. Djenné would not be conquered until 1473 by the Songhai Empire under Sonni Ali.
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Keep in mind that just like Egypt, most of the populaces of these civilizations did not live in the cities but in villages outside of the urban centers.
Posts: 26247 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Keep in mind that just like Egypt, most of the populaces of these civilizations did not live in the cities but in villages outside of the urban centers.
True. Even today you’ll see a lot of villages along the Nile, as it increases the more you go to the South.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: Mali was not an equatorial/tropical African civilization. It was a Savannah/desert one.
Anyways I heard the Kongo Kingdom had the most populated city in equatorial Africa.
Uh, Mali lies within the tropical belt of Africa making it in whole or part, a tropical civilization. The tropics DOES include a wide variety of ecozones, from jungle, and yes, to Savannah, to high altitude plateau, to cold high altitude cloud forest, to snow-capped mountains. Its time people get out of these simplistic stereotyped ideas about Africa. This is 2017.
Your talking about Mali the MODERN country. Most of the densely populated cities of Ancient Mali and Songhay were Djenne, Gao and Timbuktu which were NOT in the tropic areas but the Sahel and desert. This is why they were able to use horses so much because they didnt have to worry about the tsete flies.
And the tropics DOES include desert.. **rolleyes**
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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How about you not only read others posts but actually read your own map again before you try to lecture anyone about not knowing African geography because even Lioness knew what I meant.
Once again why do you think horses were mostly limited to the Sahel?
quote:Traders from Mali carefully controlled the breeding and use of horses in West Africa. Reportedly, they rarely traded mares south of the Sahara; therefore, despite their obvious value, horses remained rare items, connoting prestige and status outside the empire. The cavalry was extremely important in gaining a military advantage, particularly in the savanna grasslands. Although many towns in the Sahel had been walled before the introduction of the horse, probably to help control the influx of trade as early as the second-century C.E. introduction of camels, the number of settlements and villages surrounded by protective mud walls increased during the era of the Mali cavalry. The walls were necessary to stop sudden attacks by warriors on horseback.
Here, as in other parts of the world where the horse was successfully exploited, the element of surprise was significant. ]B]Ecological factors played a paramount role in defining and limiting the extent of the spread of Mande culture and society. In tropical Africa, the humidity and presence of the tsetse fly limited the use of the horse. The tsetse fly thrived in damp and swampy conditions and spread diseases that were deadly to horses. Thus, the occurrence of a particularly dry climatic period in West Africa between 1100 and 1500 takes on a certain significance.[/B] Horse breeders, warriors, and traders alike derived great advantage from that progressive dessication, which inhibited the spread of the tsetse fly. With the onset of a drier climate, expansion on horseback was favored over a much wider area. Sunjata’s military success over his rival was closely associated with cavalry warfare. Also, the regions occupied by Sahelian and savanna vegetation pushed southward at the expense of the southern forests, increasing the territory in which horses could survive. The elliptical lines of the Mandes’ expansion with the aid of their cavalry could then extend east and west. Only the rain-forest zone, where other ethnic groups lived, remained inhospitable to the empire’s warriors and their horses. Conversely, changing ecological conditions during the wet period between about 1500 and 1630 also influenced the fortunes of the empire, which had begun to collapse toward the end of the fifteenth century. Wetter conditions limited the use of cavalry and put the Mali military at a disadvantage.
There is a REASON why those Islamic Sahelian empires did not conquer further south then they did. Just like they did not conquer further north. And for you to say I'm stereotyping Africa, have you ever even been to Africa and seen the DIFFERENT climates first hand? Because I have... So don't even go there.
Also the OP was asking if they were "equatorial" that in they were humid and near the equator which much of Mali is NOT.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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According to his map they are in the Steppes region but I know what version of "tropics" Zaharan is talking about which is why there is confusion.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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As an aside, I always thought it strange that big West African empires like those of Mali never thought to use war elephants. It appears the Kushites used them during the Meroitic period (we have found the stables where they would have kept them), and Hannibal's army of elephants is pretty widely known, so you would think the idea would have spread to West Africa at some point. They certainly had plenty of the animals where they lived.
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: The Ghana empire, Yorubaland and Mali...how big were civilizations like these population wise?
Djenne Djenno, later Timbuktu was 5 times larger than London. Compare that the other empires already mapped out by others.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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No, only the southern part of Mali lies in the tropical zone which I already said. According to the map you posted. So I don't understand what was your point. The rest are in the Steppes and desert.
OK, I admit my reaction may have been a bit strong, but the point is accuracy re Africa, and its diversity. Earlier you said that all of Mali was not in the tropical zone, not merely the southern part. I don't see you mention the south until I question the notion of tropical. And it is not only the south of Mali that lies in the tropical zone- almost ALL of Mali is in the tropical zone. So how do you say it is simply the south?
The major Mali empire cities such as Djenne, Gao, and Timbuktu were in the desert and steppes region.
As I earlier noted, desert and steppes ARE part of the African tropics. They are both tropical.
Here is another climate map showing most of Mali being in the Sahel and Desert zones.
Sure, but what you are not getting is that deserts ARE part of the tropics in Africa. This is a basic geographical reality.
And again NO the teste flies NOT in those densely populated Islamic cities in Ancient Mali they were in the Southern parts which were mostly non-Islamic.
But as already shown by UN reports mentioned in the link given, the tsetse fly does appear in Mali. You are now switching to say the southern portion, but it still makes no difference. The fly appears throughout Mali. It does not distinguish between the Islamic versus non-Islamic. In fact earl Islamic travelers to Mali DO mention sleeping sickness, circa the 1300s. Mali's Mansa Djata died of it. https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=mali+%22sleepong+sickness%22
Once again why do you think horses were mostly limited to the Sahel?
Never said or implied that horses are limited to the Sahel.
There is a REASON why those Islamic Sahelian empires did not conquer further south then they did. Just like they did not conquer further north. And for you to say I'm stereotyping Africa, have you ever even been to Africa and seen the DIFFERENT climates first hand? Because I have... So don't even go there.
Don't have to go to Africa to see that your ideas are a bit off. It is a stereotype to say that the African tropics do not include desert, or steppe etc as you did earlier. Most people who hold this view conceive of Africa's tropics as mostly "jungle"- hence my strong reaction. It is basic geography that the African tropics includes deserts, steppe, savanna, cool or cold mountain plateau, and even mountains with snow. ALL are in the tropics.
Also the OP was asking if they were "equatorial" that in they were humid and near the equator which much of Mali is NOT.
Whether equatorial or tropical, both are in the African tropics. Mali is just as much a tropical civilization as others in Africa. You don't have to be located near the equator to be "tropical."
Just want to be clear about this because a standard bogus Eurocentric stereotype on Africa is to make out the tropics to be far away in distant "jungle"- with correspondingly little African civilization. (Bogus too). The full diversity of Africa's ecozones and geography has to be clearly known.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Dont have time to get into a long back and forth debate[no slick remark to you tho again just dont have the time], but I understand what you meant with tropical zone. You're talking about the "broader" definition which also includes MOST of North Africa. Basically THIS. http://www.webquest.hawaii.edu/kahihi/sciencedictionary/images/degreemap.jpg
However, I feel the OP was NOT using the one you're talking about i.e hot wet/humid" areas which is why he added "equatorial." Thats where the confusion I feel started.
Anyways I now understand what you meant.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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No, only the southern part of Mali lies in the tropical zone which I already said. According to the map you posted. So I don't understand what was your point. The rest are in the Steppes and desert.
OK, I admit my reaction may have been a bit strong, but the point is accuracy re Africa, and its diversity. Earlier you said that all of Mali was not in the tropical zone, not merely the southern part. I don't see you mention the south until I question the notion of tropical. And it is not only the south of Mali that lies in the tropical zone- almost ALL of Mali is in the tropical zone. So how do you say it is simply the south?
Elite he means this, the pink band is the tropical zone
However A tropical climate
in the Köppen climate classification is a non-arid climate in which all twelve months have mean temperatures of at least 18 °C (64 °F). In tropical climates there are often only two seasons: a wet season and a dry season. Tropical climates are frost-free and changes in the solar angle are small. In tropical climates temperature remains relatively constant (hot) throughout the year.
Locations of tropical climates, with subtypes. Af—Tropical rainforest climate. Am—Tropical monsoon climate. Aw—Tropical savanna climate.
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elite Diasporan: @zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
Dont have time to get into a long back and forth debate[no slick remark to you tho again just dont have the time], but I understand what you meant with tropical zone. You're talking about the "broader" definition which also includes MOST of North Africa. Basically THIS. http://www.webquest.hawaii.edu/kahihi/sciencedictionary/images/degreemap.jpg
However, I feel the OP was NOT using the one you're talking about i.e hot wet/humid" areas which is why he added "equatorial." Thats where the confusion I feel started.
Anyways I now understand what you meant.
No problem- just want to make the African diversity clear.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Before or after the Arabs arrival? or both?
Right now, I am studying and observing the tribal populations of Gabon and Benin - the "Teke peoples". In Gabon, is a tribe from the Teke peoples, that in their native language they named "river' as a "COLCHI". This word is thousands of years old in their language. col= RIVER BED CHI= WATER They don't have specific names for lake, ocean, or sea. They named all large body of water over a bedrock, soil or sand "COLCHI". I found out by an African engineer, living in US. He belongs to one of the Teke peoples. It rings the bell?
And until now, I can't figure out how Queen Anne of Denmark 1574-1619, was as well Queen consort of Scotland, England, and Ireland had ancestors from Niger - Africa. She mentioned her ancestors homeland from Niger-Africa in a play she wrote for her Court. Queen Anne was mixed race Mulatta. She had light skin color, and an Afro Hair. In portuguese language she is - Mulata Sarara = white female born with red or blonde afro hair.
By the way...I am worrying right now what happened to over thousand year old books of science,geography, mathematics, astronomy and history, removed by the French from Mali Mosques, and taken to France on protection pretext after Libyan terrorists attacks in Timbuktu, which destroyed old Mali's monuments. I am almost sure, those books will end up in the Louvre and the British Museum after be studied and explored by "contemporary french antiquarians"...
-------------------- ---lnnnnn* Posts: 198 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: The Ghana empire, Yorubaland and Mali...how big were civilizations like these population wise?
Djenne Djenno, later Timbuktu was 5 times larger than London. Compare that the other empires already mapped out by others.
do you have a proper source for this?
The BBC documentary on Timbuktu. Research was done by anthropologists. It’s based on river beddings, remains of houses and attributes such as pots etc... they should have taught you about this in Africana classes. Or were sleeping in the back of the auditorium? Why doubting what I say? You know I never lie to you.
Ps, by “BBC” I mean the British TV-channel.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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A proper citation of a book is when you give the exact title of the book and author's name and page number fro the quote
For a video the same with a time stamp to where a particular quote appears
Furthermore an exact quote would mention the time period so that then the recorded population of London of that time period could be multiplied by 5 to get a population total
You claim that a BBC video said Timbuktu was 5 times larger than London is FALSE
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: A proper citation of a book is when you give the exact title of the book and author's name and page number fro the quote
For a video the same with a time stamp to where a particular quote appears
Furthermore an exact quote would mention the time period so that then the recorded population of London of that time period could be multiplied by 5 to get a population total
You claim that a BBC video said Timbuktu was 5 times larger than London is FALSE
It was from the top of my head.
It’s not five times, but after looking it up he said, it was twice the size of London.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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I've noticed you do this sometimes. "I remember in a video" relying on memory can lead to errors.
Now you're saying twice the size of London but still no video title, no full sentence quote or time stamp
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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randomly here are a few of the larger middle ages populations from 1350 A.D. (more at link)
Hangzhou 432,000
Beijing 400,000
Cairo 350,000
Paris 215-300,000
Milan 200,000
comparatively, London 25-50,000
____________________________________
1550 Around the height of Timbuktu period)
Beijing 690,000
Constantinople / Istanbul 660,000
Hangzhou 260,000
Paris 210,000
London (not listed)
However here >
.
.
^ London, 2.5% of England, 1550 Population 1550 AD, 56-69,000
.
^ here is a higher range
London, 1550 Ad 70-120,00
Put it together both sources as per twice Timbuktu Timbuktu, 1550 (?) Population 112-240,000
(the high estimate over twice the low)
- depending on what date and source of London the researcher in Timbuktu was using.
His estimate on Timbuktu seemed to be based on settlement artifacts, pottery etc, not sure though
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I've noticed you do this sometimes. "I remember in a video" relying on memory can lead to errors.
Now you're saying twice the size of London but still no video title, no full sentence quote or time stamp
Still it was twice as large, and that the point here. lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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I've noticed you do this sometimes. "I remember in a video" relying on memory can lead to errors.
Now you're saying twice the size of London but still no video title, no full sentence quote or time stamp
Still it was twice as large, and that the point here. lol
Now you're saying twice the size of London but still no video title, no full sentence quote or time stamp
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I've noticed you do this sometimes. "I remember in a video" relying on memory can lead to errors.
Now you're saying twice the size of London but still no video title, no full sentence quote or time stamp
Still it was twice as large, and that the point here. lol
Now you're saying twice the size of London but still no video title, no full sentence quote or time stamp
When we cite, you accuse us of copy pasting. When it is first hand knowledge you accuse us of not copy pasting.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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