...
EgyptSearch Forums Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » African Origin model : Farming in North Africa > to Iberia

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: African Origin model : Farming in North Africa > to Iberia
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -


https://websites.pmc.ucsc.edu/~apaytan/publications/2012_Articles/Sanchez%20et%20al%202012.pdf

The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia


Authors:
Cortés Sánchez, Miguel; Jiménez Espejo, Francisco J.; Simón Vallejo, María D.; Gibaja Bao, Juan F.; Carvalho, António Faustino; Martinez-Ruiz, Francisca; Gamiz, Marta Rodrigo; Flores, José-Abel; Paytan, Adina; López Sáez, José A.; Peña-Chocarro, Leonor; Carrión, José S.; Morales Muñiz, Arturo; Roselló Izquierdo, Eufrasia; Riquelme Cantal, José A.; Dean, Rebecca M.; Salgueiro, Emília; Martínez Sánchez, Rafael M.; De la Rubia de Gracia, Juan J.; Lozano Francisco, María C.; Vera Peláez, José L.; Rodríguez, Laura Llorente; Bicho, Nuno F.

excerpts

2011


ABSTRACT

New data and a review of historiographic information from Neolithic sites of the Malaga and Algarve coasts
(southern Iberian Peninsula) and from the Maghreb (North Africa) reveal the existence of a Neolithic settlement
at least from 7.5 cal ka BP. The agricultural and pastoralist food producing economy of that population
rapidly replaced the coastal economies of the Mesolithic populations. The timing of this population and economic
turnover coincided with major changes in the continental and marine ecosystems, including upwelling
intensity, sea-level changes and increased aridity in the Sahara and along the Iberian coast. These changes
likely impacted the subsistence strategies of the Mesolithic populations along the Iberian seascapes and
resulted in abandonments manifested as sedimentary hiatuses in some areas during the Mesolithic–Neolithic
transition. The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine
technology. Different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized. The
recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for
understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests
links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.

Maghreb
The Mesolithic to Neolithic transition on the north-African coast of
the Strait of Gibraltar (Fig. 1) is not well documented although work
along the Atlantic and Mediterranean sectors is starting to produce
interesting results (e.g. Mikdad and Eiwanger, 1999; Daugas et al.,
2008; López Sáez and López Merino, 2008; Rojo et al., 2010; on-going
projects from the authors of this paper). At Hassi Ouenzga (Eastern
Morocco), the existence of an Epipaleolithic occupation featuring
ceramics of the Oran typology along with an economy based on hunting
has been already suggested (e.g. Linstädter, 2003, 2010). As in Nerja,
Cardial ceramics in the region appear later on in the sequence, (i.e.,
around the mid-8th millennium at Ifri Oudadane and Kaf Taht el
Ghar), becoming frequent from the Eastern Rif to the Atlantic between
6.1 and 5.6 cal ka BP (Linstädter, 2008). Their conic bag-shaped bottoms
and the heavy and extensive decoration, occasionally associated with
the “Almagra” slip, exhibit parallels with forms found in the Algarve,
and suggest contacts between both regions (Manen, 2000). Lithic
assemblages, scarce for the most part, were characterized by the production
of blades, although no evidences of sickles for cereal harvesting
have been documented. These data suggest that the emergence of
agriculture in the Western Maghreb was a mosaic process, apparently
different from that of the Eastern Magreb (i.e., the Oran region). The
earliest Neolithic of Oran featured impressed, incised and grooved
ceramics. The decoration was light, often restricted to the upper
portions of pots without necks and conic bases. Sometimes there


existed mammillated shaped pegs, often perforated. All of these
features resemble materials found in Andalusia (e.g. Nerja, Murciélagos,
Carigüela, etc.) more than those deriving from the Neolithic of the
Sahara.

Southern Iberian Neolithic pioneers — a Maghrebian origin?
The arrival of the Neolithic innovations to the western Mediterranean
can be interpreted in terms of demic diffusion, although not necessarily
of the kind predicted by the wave of advance model
(Ammermann and Cavalli-Sforza, 1984). According to available data, a
maritime pioneer colonization model, analogous to that proposed by
Zilhão (1993, 2001), seems to be the most viable explanation. Available
data indicate the initial establishment of an Early Neolithic in southernmost
Iberia with a likely Northern African origin. The evidences for such
hypothesis are multifarious:
a) Ceramics—Formal and ornamental parallelisms among Neolithic
sites in the Oran region, the eastern Rif and Andalusia (e.g. Manen
et al., 2007; Linstädter, 2008; Ramos et al., 2008).
b) Lithic industries—Presence of segments and absence of Valencian
trapezes (Manen et al., 2007) as well as heat treatment of flint in
the Early Neolithic levels from sites in Portugal, Andalusia, and
North Africa (Manen et al., 2007; Carvalho, 2008), in the Spanish
Levant there is no evidence for this technique (García, 2006).
c) Presence of straighteners made on human bone in both the early
non-Cardial Neolithic from Nerja (Adam, 1995) and in sites from
Andalusia and the Maghreb (Algeria, Libya and Tunisia).
d) Use of a large variety of plant species (Table 2) and many domesticated
animals (Pereira et al., 2006), unlike the more restricted and
specialized cereal use of other European regions during the Early
Neolithic.
e) The unique features of sickles in the Malaga sites (i.e., flint implements
inserted in a slightly diagonal position in the handle during
the Early Neolithic. This pattern contrasts with the style found in
Northern Iberia, where whole flint blades are inserted parallel to
the handle (Ibáñez et al., 2008; Gibaja et al., 2010).
f) Preliminary paleogenetic data from an individual from the Middle
Neolithic levels of Nerja (Simón et al., 2005) evidence a close genetic
relationship with individuals of haplogroup L1b, commonly found in
the West African tribes of Fulbe, Mandenka, and Yoruba (Watson
et al., 1996) and, less frequently, in Central and North Africa (Salas
et al., 2002). The presence of an African mitochondrial haplogroup
at Nerja does not necessarily indicate a recent African origin for
that individual. It may be consistent with the fact that African ancestry
was present in the region during earlier periods but obviously
more data will be required to confirm a Neolithic African ancestry
through genetic tracers.
Limits and implications of the Maghreb Neolithization wave
The new dates on short lived samples, together with other relevant
evidence presented here indicate an essentially synchronous development
of the Neolithic for Andalusia, the Algarve and North Africa
(Fig. 4). This would suggest that the process of Neolithic expansion in
the region could have been faster than that predicted by Ammermann

Conclusions
Paleoenvironmental and archeological data suggest that a climatic
and environmental crisis between 8.0 and 7.3 cal ka BP may have
impacted negatively populations on both sides of the Strait of Gibraltar.
In southern Iberia this crisis was recognized by an increase in climatic
instability, hydrological changes, and a decrease in temperatures and
marine productivity. As such, it affected the composition of the terrestrial
and marine faunas that were available to the Mesolithic hunter
gatherers. At the same time, in different areas of the Sahara, an increase
in the aridity, forcing migrations and the abandonment of various
Neolithic settlements, has been documented.
New AMS dates on unequivocally Neolithic short-lived samples (i.e.,
cereals and sheep bones) and the associated elements of the material
culture from sites located along the Malaga and Algarve coasts, document
the earliest presence of Neolithic symbolism and the production
economy (i.e., body ornaments, burials, agriculture and animal husbandry)
by at least 7.5 cal ka BP. Despite the detailed sampling that
has been undertaken, at this point one cannot exclude slightly older
dates for the origin of this regional phenomenon. In fact, based on the

This first Neolithic wave, of plausibly Maghrebian origin, overlapped
and was gradually replaced by Neolithic groups using Cardial ceramics
or, perhaps, such kind of ceramic was simply adopted later. On the
other hand, heat-treated flint technology was widely spread in the
rest of Europe after a few centuries. The role played by the preNeolithic
indigenous populations in this process remains unknown
and needs to be clarified. The available data indicate that the earliest
Neolithic with such distinct traits occupied an area ranging from the
easternmost limit of central Andalusia to the Tagus–Mondego estuaries
in Portugal. That the contact with North Africa was maintained through
time is evident in the retrieval of exotic items, such as ostrich eggshell
and ivory elements, documented in megalithic funerary contexts (e.g.
Los Millares: Arribas and Molina, 1991).

timing of the paleoenvironmental changes reported, we postulate that
this first arrival could have occurred anywhere in the time period ranging
between 8.0 and 7.3 cal ka BP.
The 7.4 cal ka BP crisis also affected the central and eastern Mediterranean
area and could have been an important factor in determining the
influences that appear to radiate from these areas during the earliest
stages of the Neolithic. Still, the original Neolithic features of the Malaga
region (i.e., mostly ceramics) differ from those of the Cardial style to the
extent of suggesting a distinct origin and arrival route on the western
Mediterranean, most likely from the Maghreb. The speed and timing
of this southern route of neolithization suggest that it not only involved
maritime technologies but also previously existing networks.
Therefore, the emergence of the Neolithic in southern Iberia around
7.3±0.2 cal ka BP seems to be connected to four main factors: (a) the
crisis of the Mesolithic subsistence system, (b) the Neolithic migrations
in the Sahara, (c) the existence of navigational technologies and (d) a
series of environmental changes associated to the 7.4 cal ka BP climatic
event. This set of conditions drove the fast development and expansion
of the Neolithic into southern Iberia, a process that was likely based on
cultural fusion resulting in a new Neolithic cultural entity quite distinct
from the French-Iberian cardial.
The data presented here are consistent with an African origin model,
proposed originally in the first half of the 20th century (Manen et al.,
2007; Ramos et al., 2008). The present scenario, however, seems to be
far more complex than a simple migration process; we should thus
look for transfers, integration and reinterpretation of cultural traits
among the cultural mosaic of coeval groups settled along the Western
Mediterranean during the 8th millennium BP, from the Andalusian
and Algarvian coasts to the northern African territories of Morocco
and Algeria, in order to solve this issue. In this sense, more in-depth
studies should be carried out before definitively accepting the described
African origin for the Neolithic in South Iberia.

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good find. Did you note the archaeogenetic features of the article, These features include archaeological, genetic (hg L1b), and linguistic evidence mention of Mandenka and Fulbe.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Clyde this is embarrassing. I presented an argument for an African model for the Iberian Neolithic from 2011 and the best you could come up with was and obscure Indian researcher form 1963. It's time to enter into the 21st Century
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Sánchez et al (2011) paper is in sharp contrast to the Neolithization of North Africa involved the migration of people from both the Levant and Europe by - Rosa Freger (Sep2017). This paper is Interesting. It promotes the idea of a back migration to Africa without any archaeological evidence to support the conclusion. The authors report parallel archaeological findings in the Neolithic sites in North Africa and Andalusian Early Neolithic and Cardial cultures, and ivory tools associated with the Iberian Neolithic sites.

The major problem with the paper is that it fails to explain that the earliest sites for these artifacts including bell beaker are found in North Africa--not Europe. In addition, this paper , has ignored the evidence of Sánchez et al, that many of these cultures had been introduced Iberia by North Africans thousands of years earlier. As a result. we have more evidence that U6, M1, T2, X and K originated in Africa not Europe The Bell Beaker sites in North Africa date to 5kya, while the Spanish sites only date to the 2nd Millennium BC. This was 3k years after the North Africans had introduced the ceramics associated with Iberian sites.

See:C. Winters,A GENETIC CHRONOLOGY OF AFRICAN Y-CHROMOSOMES R-V88 AND R-M269 IN AFRICA AND EURASIA, http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf

Martín-Socas D, et al. (2004).Cueva de El Toro (Antequera, Málaga-Spain). A Neolithic Stockbreeding Community in the Andalusian region between VI-III millenniums B.C.. Documenta Praehistorica XXX:126-143 . [accessed Sep 22, 2017]. Available from https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309558230_Cueva_de_El_Toro_Antequera_Malaga-Spain_A_Neolithic_Stockbreeding_Community_in_the_Andalusian_region_between_VI-III_millenniums_B C

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde this is embarrassing. I presented an argument for an African model for the Iberian Neolithic from 2011 and the best you could come up with was and obscure Indian researcher form 1963. It's time to enter into the 21st Century

As I said earlier I cite numerous contemporary papers of the African origin of Iberian civilizations in my paper: C. Winters,A GENETIC CHRONOLOGY OF AFRICAN Y-CHROMOSOMES R-V88 AND R-M269 IN AFRICA AND EURASIA, http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf

quote:


"Agro-Pastoral people cultivated crops and herded cattle. Elements of the Agro-Pastoral members of the
Bell Beaker and Corded Ware complexes appear first in the African Sahara. Here, we see rock engravings
of cattle herders and hunters using similar bow and arrows. The Yamnaya archers' wrist-guard and bows
may have had their origin in the Sahara where we see similar wrist-guards (Le Quellec, 2011).

Daugas et al., (1989) provides a number of radio carbon dates for the Bell Beaker complex in North
Africa. We find Beaker Bell ware dating to 3700 BC in Morocco. By 2700 BC we see the expansion of
Beaker complex into Iberia (Daugas et al., 1989). The Iberian Bell Beaker complex is associated with the
“Maritime tradition” (Mathieson et al., 2017; Turek, 2012).

There are numerous Bell Beaker sites in the Sahara and Morocco. A center of the Moroccan Beaker
complex ceramics and arrowheads come from Hassi Ouenzga and in the cave of Ifri Ouberrid. Artifacts
found at these sites are similar to Iberian Beaker complex forms (Nekkal and Mikdad, 2014). The
interesting fact about the discovery of these artifacts is that they were widespread across the Middle Atlas
mountains at sites such as El-Kiffen, Skhirat – de Rouazi, Kehf, That el Gher and Ifri Ouberrid (Guilaine,
1976; Mikdad, 1998; Nekka and Mikdad, 2014). This finding matches Turek (2012); which explains the
spread of typically beaker style stamped decoration Bell Beaker culture pottery from Morocco into Iberia,
and thence the rest of Europe.



--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QB] The Sánchez et al (2011) paper is in sharp contrast to the Neolithization of North Africa involved the migration of people from both the Levant and Europe by - Rosa Freger (Sep2017). This paper is Interesting. It promotes the idea of a back migration to Africa without any archaeological evidence to support the conclusion.

You routinely post about two regions occupied by some ethnic group and you point to similarities in artifacts and language

And you present no evidence as to the direction of the migration.
You simply select where you want it to originate and state it as fact.

No one can really be certain of the direction of Neolithic transition in these areas

The opposing argument in the other thread:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009794

AND

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009795

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QB] The Sánchez et al (2011) paper is in sharp contrast to the Neolithization of North Africa involved the migration of people from both the Levant and Europe by - Rosa Freger (Sep2017). This paper is Interesting. It promotes the idea of a back migration to Africa without any archaeological evidence to support the conclusion.

You routinely post about two regions occupied by some ethnic group and you point to similarities in artifacts and language

And you present no evidence as to the direction of the migration.
You simply select where you want it to originate and state it as fact.

No one can really be certain of the direction of Neolithic transition in these areas

The opposing argument in the other thread:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009794

AND

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009795

I do provide data on the direction of the migration. I provide the date archaeologist have assigned to the discovery and excavation of artifactual evidence. Beginning with the earliest date the toolkit and ceramics were found as the starting date for the culture , and the date for the established of the culture in a different location at a different site.

For example I wrote:

quote:

Daugas et al., (1989) provides a number of radio carbon dates for the Bell Beaker complex in North
Africa. We find Beaker Bell ware dating to 3700 BC in Morocco. By 2700 BC we see the expansion of
Beaker complex into Iberia (Daugas et al., 1989).
The Iberian Bell Beaker complex is associated with the
“Maritime tradition” (Mathieson et al., 2017; Turek, 2012).


In this passage I make it clear that Bell Beaker sites appeared in Morocco 3700 BC. They appear in Iberia 2700 BC, a thousand years after they appeared in Morocco. This passage makes it clear I present the origin of Beaker Culture, and the direction of its diffusion to Iberia a 1000 years later. Finally, I add that the Iberian Bell Beaker complex is associated with the “Maritime tradition", which archaeologist agree originated in Africa.

Stop making stuff up.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


For example I wrote:

[QUOTE]
Daugas et al., (1989) provides a number of radio carbon dates for the Bell Beaker complex in North
Africa. We find Beaker Bell ware dating to 3700 BC in Morocco. By 2700 BC we see the expansion of
Beaker complex into Iberia (Daugas et al., 1989).
The Iberian Bell Beaker complex is associated with the
“Maritime tradition” (Mathieson et al., 2017; Turek, 2012).



Show us a proper exact quote in French or English by Daugas that states Bell Beaker originates in Africa

Here's the source

https://nda.revues.org/1028

Le néolithique du Maroc, 25 ans de coopération franco-marocaine
Évolution des concepts, bilan documentaire et perspectives de recherche

Jean-Pierre Daugas
p. 116-121

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


For example I wrote:

[QUOTE]
Daugas et al., (1989) provides a number of radio carbon dates for the Bell Beaker complex in North Africa. We find Beaker Bell ware dating to 3700 BC in Morocco. By 2700 BC we see the expansion of
Beaker complex into Iberia (Daugas et al., 1989).
The Iberian Bell Beaker complex is associated with the
“Maritime tradition” (Mathieson et al., 2017; Turek, 2012).



Show us a proper exact quote in French or English by Daugas that states Bell Beaker originates in Africa

Here's the source

https://nda.revues.org/1028

Le néolithique du Maroc, 25 ans de coopération franco-marocaine
Évolution des concepts, bilan documentaire et perspectives de recherche

Jean-Pierre Daugas
p. 116-121

Where did I say Daugas said Bell Beaker originated in Africa. I wrote "Daugas et al., (1989) provides a number of radio carbon dates for the Bell Beaker complex in North Africa. We find Beaker Bell ware dating to 3700 BC in Morocco.'

Stop Making stuff Up!

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


For example I wrote:

[QUOTE]
Daugas et al., (1989) provides a number of radio carbon dates for the Bell Beaker complex in North Africa. We find Beaker Bell ware dating to 3700 BC in Morocco. By 2700 BC we see the expansion of
Beaker complex into Iberia (Daugas et al., 1989).
The Iberian Bell Beaker complex is associated with the
“Maritime tradition” (Mathieson et al., 2017; Turek, 2012).



Show us a proper exact quote in French or English by Daugas that states Bell Beaker originates in Africa

Here's the source

https://nda.revues.org/1028

Le néolithique du Maroc, 25 ans de coopération franco-marocaine
Évolution des concepts, bilan documentaire et perspectives de recherche

Jean-Pierre Daugas
p. 116-121

Where did I say Daugas said Bell Beaker originated in Africa. I wrote "Daugas et al., (1989) provides a number of radio carbon dates for the Bell Beaker complex in North Africa. We find Beaker Bell ware dating to 3700 BC in Morocco.'

Stop Making stuff Up!

stop playing games

provide a quote with full sentences from any source that says there was Bell Beaker culture in North Africa

WHAT IS THE LOCATION OF A BELL BEAKER SITE IN NORTH AFRICA?
without that you are merely blowing wind

There are prehistoric cultures in North Africa that have names


Aterians
Mechta-Afalou/Iberomaurusian or Oranian
Capsian
Kiffian Man
Tenerian

Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 13 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


For example I wrote:

[QUOTE]
Daugas et al., (1989) provides a number of radio carbon dates for the Bell Beaker complex in North Africa. We find Beaker Bell ware dating to 3700 BC in Morocco. By 2700 BC we see the expansion of
Beaker complex into Iberia (Daugas et al., 1989).
The Iberian Bell Beaker complex is associated with the
“Maritime tradition” (Mathieson et al., 2017; Turek, 2012).



Show us a proper exact quote in French or English by Daugas that states Bell Beaker originates in Africa

Here's the source

https://nda.revues.org/1028

Le néolithique du Maroc, 25 ans de coopération franco-marocaine
Évolution des concepts, bilan documentaire et perspectives de recherche

Jean-Pierre Daugas
p. 116-121

Where did I say Daugas said Bell Beaker originated in Africa. I wrote "Daugas et al., (1989) provides a number of radio carbon dates for the Bell Beaker complex in North Africa. We find Beaker Bell ware dating to 3700 BC in Morocco.'

Stop Making stuff Up!

stop playing games

provide a quote with full sentences from any source that says there was Bell Beaker culture in North Africa

WHAT IS THE LOCATION OF A BELL BEAKER SITE IN NORTH AFRICA?
without that you are merely blowing wind

There are prehistoric cultures in North Africa that have names


Aterians
Mechta-Afalou/Iberomaurusian or Oranian
Capsian
Kiffian Man
Tenerian

LOL. I cited the sites in my paper. Stop Making stuff Up.

You posted the Daugas article so you know the sites already.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Where did I say Daugas said Bell Beaker originated in Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

You posted the Daugas article so you know the sites already.

stop playing games
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Where did I say Daugas said Bell Beaker originated in Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

You posted the Daugas article so you know the sites already.

stop playing games

This not a game tell us the sites mentioned by Daugas

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Most of the sites within North Africa are thousands of miles away from Iberia but somehow they are suggesting a close link between them all? All those populations obviously weren't the same and it is impossible to link them genetically based on "bead exchange" networks. Oddly enough, this refutes the idea that Africans somehow "disappeared" from the Sahara during the onset of the dry phase. But of course the missing link is the DNA of populations across all these various locations, instead of a bunch of arm waving and postulating trying to link populations in the central and southern Sahara to wandering Eurasians thousands of miles away on the coast of North Africa 8thousand years ago.

For example, the Selima Oasis in Northern Sudan is part of what is also called Wadi Halfa an important Neolithic site in the Nile. That is over 2,000 miles from Gibraltar, which is almost as wide as the continental US. So while it is fine to suggest the North African contribution to Europe, it would help to clarify what populations from what regions of "North Africa" are relevant to that contribution. And on top of that finding any DNA from such populations would be a big help as well.

Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
Member
Member # 17353

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for the lioness,     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know why Doug is talking about Sudan when the article is about the Maghreb.I
I don't know why Doug is talking about bead exchange when beads are not mentioned in the article.
I don't know why Doug is talking about wandering Eurasians when this article is talking about a maghrebian origin for Iberian culture.
I don't know why Doug is asking to clarify what populations from what regions of North Africa are relevant to that contribution when the article talks about the Oran of the Hassi Ouenzga site in Eastern Morocco)


quote:

An Early Neolithic in southernmost
Iberia with a likely Northern African origin. The evidences for such
hypothesis are multifarious:

a) Ceramics—Formal and ornamental parallelisms among Neolithic
sites in the Oran region, the eastern Rif and Andalusia (e.g. Manen
et al., 2007; Linstädter, 2008; Ramos et al., 2008).
b) Lithic industries—Presence of segments and absence of Valencian
trapezes (Manen et al., 2007) as well as heat treatment of flint in
the Early Neolithic levels from sites in Portugal, Andalusia, and
North Africa (Manen et al., 2007; Carvalho, 2008), in the Spanish
Levant there is no evidence for this technique (García, 2006).
c) Presence of straighteners made on human bone in both the early
non-Cardial Neolithic from Nerja (Adam, 1995) and in sites from
Andalusia and the Maghreb (Algeria, Libya and Tunisia).
d) Use of a large variety of plant species (Table 2) and many domesticated
animals (Pereira et al., 2006), unlike the more restricted and
specialized cereal use of other European regions during the Early
Neolithic.
e) The unique features of sickles in the Malaga sites (i.e., flint implements
inserted in a slightly diagonal position in the handle during
the Early Neolithic. This pattern contrasts with the style found in
Northern Iberia, where whole flint blades are inserted parallel to
the handle (Ibáñez et al., 2008; Gibaja et al., 2010).
f) Preliminary paleogenetic data from an individual from the Middle
Neolithic levels of Nerja (Simón et al., 2005) evidence a close genetic
relationship with individuals of haplogroup L1b, commonly found in
the West African tribes of Fulbe, Mandenka, and Yoruba (Watson
et al., 1996) and, less frequently, in Central and North Africa (Salas
et al., 2002). The presence of an African mitochondrial haplogroup
at Nerja does not necessarily indicate a recent African origin for
that individual. It may be consistent with the fact that African ancestry
was present in the region during earlier periods but obviously
more data will be required to confirm a




Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | EgyptSearch!

(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3