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Author Topic: Canary Island ancient DNA
capra
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Genomic Analyses of Pre-European Conquest Human Remains from the Canary Islands Reveal Close Affinity to Modern North Africans

All autosomal samples quite recent, but prior to the Spanish conquest, 600-1100 AD. They look much like Berbers. Men (n=3) all typical Berber E-M81, which is probably very young. The oldest sample, predating the Islamic conquest of the Maghreb, has E-M81 and U6b1a.

Most common mitochondrial haplogroups were L3b1a (widespread in West Africa and beyond) and U6b1a (specific to Canary Islands, with its nearest relative in the Maghreb). Other maternal lineages are H1cf (also Canary-specific), H2a, J1c3, T2c1d2.

Autosomally they are very much like modern Maghrebis, in ADMIXTURE, PCA, and Fst, though on PCA they are pulled a little toward Europeans from the main North African cluster. In f3 stats they shared most drift with Europeans, and in D stats were significantly closer to Sardinians and Anatolian Neolithic farmers than to modern North Africans, but as with the ancient Egyptians this is almost certainly due to different contributions of Sub-Saharan ancestry having an outsize effect.

Modern Canary Islanders could be modelled as 12-35% Guanche and the rest Western European, depending on the reference used.

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Elite Diasporan
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Thanks again @Capra. FINALLY what we been saying all along in that the early Canary islanders were just Berbers and not some random European population like some Eurocentrics hoped for.

The predominance of E-M81 in my honest opinion shows the island was settled by Northwest Africans. Especially considering Berber culture is mainly patriarchal(someone correct me).

What is surprising is L3b1a being that common.

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Elite Diasporan
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Anyone else?
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Tyrannohotep
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The Guanches' skin color doesn't seem to have been that dark though:

quote:
Lastly, we obtained phenotypically informative SNPs from the five individuals with the highest genome coverage; however, only individual gun011 yielded high enough coverage to infer genotypes (Table S4). We relied on the HirisPlex and 8-plex prediction systems, which are based on 24 and 8 SNPs respectively, for skin, hair, and eye color prediction [36 ; 37], as well as 3 SNPs involved in lactose tolerance [38; 39 ; 40] (Table S4). The results reveal that this individual likely was lactose intolerant and had brown eyes, dark hair, and light or medium skin color. These results are similar for the other individuals where SNP information is available, albeit with lower coverage, suggesting that—at least for this sample of Guanches—the dominating phenotype was lactose intolerant, dark hair, light or medium skin color, and brown eyes (Table S4)

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Thereal
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Dark is relative to light,the issue is that the people conducting the study are Europeans so there description is probably a bit different from an African description so going by the labels they probably mean a mulatto hue when compared to jet black or dark brown skin.

From native north Africans?

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Elite Diasporan
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Its been said that the Guanches was a different population from the natives.

I remember reading old threads on here and Djehuti pointed that out even with historical sources.

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capra
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The pigmentation data is pretty low quality, only one person (gun011) has decent coverage. For one of the main light skin variants (in SLC24A5) he has all derived calls (but possible DNA damage even here) but none of the others have any calls. For another one (in SLC45A2) he has 2 derived, 1 ancestral, and there is one other person with 1 call (ancestral). For one of the other alleles (in ASIP) all calls are for the lighter variant, for another (in MC1R) all for the darker variant, and for a third (in TYR1) gun011 has the light variant and several others have the dark variant.

So tl;dr light to medium skin tone with dark hair and eyes. Though if gun011 is unusual in having SLC24A5 homozygous derived the others could be dark-skinned. But probably all olive skinned to light brown.

Anyway they're frigging Berbers, they can be anything darker than Irish and lighter than Dinka.

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Elmaestro
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I figured the Guanches should be relatively "white", I'm slightly surprised that they conclude on them (Guanches) being primarily Berber. Derived calls for slc45a2 pretty much confirms whosoever has post neolithic geneflow from Europe, if not already implied by the Mt.DNA. I haven't gone into deep reading yet, but it seems clear that they had extensive European geneflow. They also have a good portion of their DNA belonging to that enigmatic east African component that shows up in North Africans and in some ancient samples, although they share Uni's and geographic proximity with West Africans.

I'm interested for the fact that we might have a clearer view of Ancient african substructure in post Christian Era samples. I don't recall much evidence for precolonial common Era geneflow to Cananry Islands from SSA, yet they retain a respectable portion of SSA, even clustering with Algerians, who in turn have recent SSA admixture... It's quite telling.

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capra
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In the D stats vs Sardinians the Guanches are closest to Shaigi_WGA, who I understand (from Anthrogenica) are Sudanese Arabs. These look very North African considering they are supposed to be a mix of Arabs and Nubians! Maybe the Shaigi_WGA, or these particular examples at least, are Arabized Berbers?

Too bad there aren't any statistics really looking at the source and proportion of the SSA. Looks like it is almost all incorporated into the Mozabite component. At any rate it ought to pre-date the almighty Arab slave trade.

Derived SLC45A2 is already in Anatolian and Iberian Neolithic, so it doesn't mark post-Neolithic European gene flow specifically.

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DD'eDeN
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Guanche was the language spoken on Tenerife.

Other islands used Bimbache, perhaps they had a different prehistory?

--------------------
xyambuatlaya

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Elite Diasporan
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@Elmaestro

If you study Moorish history you would know that European populations(both slaves and expelled Muslims from Iberia/Sicily) absorbed most of the Northwest African population and is where the European admixture comes from. Northwest Africa prior to the Muslim expulsion from Europe was sparsely populated.

This is similar to Bantu people absorbing the indigenous population of Central and Southern Africa. Northwest Africa being sparsely populated made it easy for population replacement.

To give you an example Christian renegades (Spanish, Italian, French, Albanian, etc. who would eventually convert to Islam) and the medieval slave trade had a major impact on places like Tlemcen, Oran, Bejaia (Bougie - Kabyle central) and especially Alger. Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, something like 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.

This is just speaking for Northwest Africa BUT the Canary Islands WERE apart of the Berber/Moorish influence and did see migrations from Europe.

I'm still surprised with the significant L lineages.

@Capra WOW! Nubian!? Gonna have to give this a deeper read through.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:

Northwest Africa prior to the Muslim expulsion from Europe was sparsely populated.


So if the morisco expulsion was 500,000 or less you are saying the population of the maghreb was less than 500,000 prior to the expulsion?
What estimates do you have for the population of Northwest Africa prior to the expulsion of the moriscos?

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
In the D stats vs Sardinians the Guanches are closest to Shaigi_WGA, who I understand (from Anthrogenica) are Sudanese Arabs. These look very North African considering they are supposed to be a mix of Arabs and Nubians! Maybe the Shaigi_WGA, or these particular examples at least, are Arabized Berbers?

...is, ....is this GG's?

quote:
Too bad there aren't any statistics really looking at the source and proportion of the SSA. Looks like it is almost all incorporated into the Mozabite component. At any rate it ought to pre-date the almighty Arab slave trade.
That source is prehistoric lol, I'm pretty sure Nilotes or a similar population will body the Guanche SSAn component... It's the same "east African" found in modern North Africa, it's the same "east African" in Abusir mummies, and PPNB... It's probably proof of our incompetence and hive minded judgment in referring to this membership as Sub-Saharan, when it might just be everything else, like ancient North African Shared with other Africans.... who knows?

speculation aside I think here needs to be more transparency in how these papers are marketed, If there is marked European and Arab admixture in contemporary Berbers and these samples, it needs to be realized. Not everyone will know that these genomes aren't particularly representative of Aboriginal N.African populations.

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beyoku
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Remember the whispers of the Nubian C group to be of Berber origin? This large chuck of North African Maghrebi Type ancestry is pretty much unheard of East of Libya let alone further south into Sudan. Looks like modern African samples still have some surprises.
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Punos_Rey
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"Looks like modern African samples still have some surprises."

^I maintain this same belief myself, and Im still waiting for more Predynastic/Old Kingdom aDna. I really do wonder how this picture will look a few years ahead.

--------------------
 -

Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square.

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Elite Diasporan
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:

Northwest Africa prior to the Muslim expulsion from Europe was sparsely populated.


So if the morisco expulsion was 500,000 or less you are saying the population of the maghreb was less than 500,000 prior to the expulsion?
What estimates do you have for the population of Northwest Africa prior to the expulsion of the moriscos?

Sorry for the late reply. Anyways that Jacques Heers quote argues that 50% of the population were slaves in Algeria.

Also...

The translator of Leo Africanus Robert Brown mentioned - "The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” (Brown, 1896, p. 203).

According to Robert Davis Tripoli, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves." (Davis, 2003, Christtian Slaves Muslim Masters, White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800.p. 112)

While I do not have exact estimates of the population number of Northwest Africa prior to the Muslim expulsion many of these sources stating how the Muslim European population was able to absorb the native one seems to hint at Northwest Africa(especially Morocco and Algeria) being sparsely population. It seems outside of maybe Tunisia Northwest Africa was not as densely populated.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:

Northwest Africa prior to the Muslim expulsion from Europe was sparsely populated.


So if the morisco expulsion was 500,000 or less you are saying the population of the maghreb was less than 500,000 prior to the expulsion?
What estimates do you have for the population of Northwest Africa prior to the expulsion of the moriscos?

Sorry for the late reply. Anyways that Jacques Heers quote argues that 50% of the population were slaves in Algeria.

Also...

The translator of Leo Africanus Robert Brown mentioned - "The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” (Brown, 1896, p. 203).

According to Robert Davis Tripoli, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves." (Davis, 2003, Christtian Slaves Muslim Masters, White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800.p. 112)

While I do not have exact estimates of the population number of Northwest Africa prior to the Muslim expulsion many of these sources stating how the Muslim European population was able to absorb the native one seems to hint at Northwest Africa(especially Morocco and Algeria) being sparsely population. It seems outside of maybe Tunisia Northwest Africa was not as densely populated.


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:


While I do not have exact estimates of the population number of Northwest Africa prior to the Muslim expulsion many of these sources stating how the Muslim European population was able to absorb the native one seems to hint at Northwest Africa(especially Morocco and Algeria) being sparsely population. It seems outside of maybe Tunisia Northwest Africa was not as densely populated.

 -
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Elite Diasporan
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^^^Not sure what your source is addressing.

But anyways @Capra where can I find info on Shaigi_WGA?

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the lioness,
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Carthage , one of several cities in North Africa is estimated to have had 300,000 people. That is many centuries before the Muslims


ref:
--African Kingdoms: An Encyclopedia of Empires and Civilizations
By Saheed Aderinto, p 49

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
^^^Not sure what your source is addressing.

But anyways @Capra where can I find info on Shaigi_WGA?

In the study? or peripheral info?
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Elite Diasporan
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
^^^Not sure what your source is addressing.

But anyways @Capra where can I find info on Shaigi_WGA?

In the study? or peripheral info?
Peripheral info.
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Elmaestro
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Genetically they appear to be a central sudanese population who became Arabized rougly 700 years ago
from Holfelder earlier this year:

 -
Admixture in sudan; Section C represents the time ago in generation for the particular group. A is a heatmap for nilotic B is for non African.
 -

...I believe I sent you a more indepth look at how they look among other African populations and ancient populations Via ADMIXTURE. They and other Surrounding populations will have that Berber component, a Eurasian component and a nilotic component, all together their SSA component will be less than that reported in Holfelder's published work.

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Elite Diasporan
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^^Thanks as always. I'm going to have to check my PMs to find the one you're referring to.
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
The Guanches' skin color doesn't seem to have been that dark though:

quote:
Lastly, we obtained phenotypically informative SNPs from the five individuals with the highest genome coverage; however, only individual gun011 yielded high enough coverage to infer genotypes (Table S4). We relied on the HirisPlex and 8-plex prediction systems, which are based on 24 and 8 SNPs respectively, for skin, hair, and eye color prediction [36 ; 37], as well as 3 SNPs involved in lactose tolerance [38; 39 ; 40] (Table S4). The results reveal that this individual likely was lactose intolerant and had brown eyes, dark hair, and light or medium skin color. These results are similar for the other individuals where SNP information is available, albeit with lower coverage, suggesting that—at least for this sample of Guanches—the dominating phenotype was lactose intolerant, dark hair, light or medium skin color, and brown eyes (Table S4)

Yes. And note that the African male and female haplogroups seem to be closely related and from the same sites. I'm not convinced that the African lineages require a rethink of everything we already know about Canary Island aDNA.

This (potentially redundant samples) is why, when they sample from living populations, they track surnames/ask about family history. It's to prevent sampling from the same families.

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Doug M
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On this site we have discussed the East African origin of Berber language speakers going back many years. But beyond that the issue has always been the sampling locations of populations along the coasts of North Africa as the epitome of all North Africans at any time depth. And because of the exposure of these populations to non African gene flow over time, that has become the basis of the "sub saharan" vs "north African" genetic divide due to skewed sampling. Of course the U6 DNA lineages, being the most dominant in Northwest Africa, have been assigned a "Eurasian" origin, therefore, there has always been an issue on geographic labels for ancient African DNA. So until the assignment of these labels to these ancient lineages changes and we get better aDNA from Africa, there is no "indigenous" non SSA African genetic lineages in North Africa..... This is precisely why I refrain from using the term especially when it comes to ancient African DNA. Until we find more aDNA from Africa at greater time depths than currently available, we will not be able to get a proper picture of the population movements and patterns of North African history. It is obvious that the Sahara has had an impact on this history, but the idea that "indigenous" Africans did not and have not settled in and traveled across the Sahara, albeit in relatively small numbers, does not make sense. Yet this is what this whole "eurasian back migration" theory imposes on North African history. And the only way to find these ancient signs of small sized population sites around various oases across the Sahara and North Africa is to do greater DNA sampling outside of the extreme coasts of North Africa and to find more of these ancient settlement sites near oases, lakes and springs. Not only that but there are significant settlement sites in the Central and Southern sahara that are hardly ever used when it comes to ancient or contemporary North African DNA. Just because North Africa has been sparsely populated since the last wet phase, doesn't mean that no "indigenous African" lineages were not present. Of course the only exception to the rule of sparse populations in North Africa is the Nile Valley which would have supported much larger population settlements as we see from Ancient Egypt and predynastic population settlement patterns. But even here that whole false dichotomy of 'sub saharan' vs non existent 'north African indigenous' DNA still exists.

How this fits into Canary islanders goes more into how and when the first settlers arrived in the islands. Currently it is theorized that the canary Islands were settled somewhere around 1000 BCE from the nearby African coast. The only reason this was in question, is because the currents in the area do not provide a direct route to the islands. But otherwise it shouldn't be a shock that this is the case. And therefore the DNA of the Canary island first settlers falls into generally the DNA of North Western Africa as part of "Berber" DNA even though Berber as a language is not a DNA lineage.

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

How this fits into Canary islanders goes more into how and when the first settlers arrived in the islands. Currently it is theorized that the canary Islands were settled somewhere around 1000 BCE from the nearby African coast. The only reason this was in question, is because the currents in the area do not provide a direct route to the islands. But otherwise it shouldn't be a shock that this is the case. And therefore the DNA of the Canary island first settlers falls into generally the DNA of North Western Africa as part of "Berber" DNA even though Berber as a language is not a DNA lineage.

What do you know about the non-Guanche Canary Island settlers? I haven't seen an autosomal study on the first Settlers of the Island, how do you know they were Berber?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
I haven't seen an autosomal study on the first Settlers of the Island, how do you know they were Berber? [/QB]

what about the thread topic article? Could it be there?


quote:


Population Genomic Analysis of Autosomal DNA

A principal component analysis (PCA) of the five samples with the highest autosomal genome coverage, performed using genome-wide autosomal SNPs overlapping with Human Origins (HO) data [19 ; 20], reveals close affinity to modern Northwest African populations such as Tunisians and Algerians, but with a tendency (especially for individuals from Gran Canaria) to occupy a space outside modern Northwest African variation, closer to Europeans (Figures 2 and S2). However, outgroup f3 statistics [ 19] suggest that the Guanches share more genetic drift with non-African test populations than with African test populations, including Northwest African populations of Berber origin (Data S1, sheet 2). This observation is inconsistent with the PCA and the uniparental genetic marker data, indicating that the outgroup f3 statistic may be misleading, possibly due to the complex history of recent sub-Saharan admixture events in North African populations [ 12 ; 21] and the sensitivity of the f3 estimator to such patterns. This issue seems to extend to other statistics based on allele frequency correlations such as the D statistic [ 19] since D(Outgroup, Guanches; North African, Sardinian/Anatolian farmer) consistently produces highly significant positive values of D (Z > 4), which would imply a closer relationship between Guanches and Sardinians and Anatolian farmers than between Guanches and North African populations ( Data S1, sheet 3).

The Guanches’ Berber-like affinity is further supported by ADMIXTURE [29] analysis (Figures 3 and S3), where Guanches largely behave like modern Berbers across all values of K. At K = 10, a Northwest African-specific ancestry component makes up the greatest amount of autosomal ancestry in the Guanche and Berber populations in the HO dataset, such as the Mozabite and Saharawi. It is also ubiquitous across other Northwest African populations with Berber ancestry, such as Algerians and Tunisians, consistent with the PCA results. This ancestry component is also represented in present-day Canary Islanders and at a low proportion in some South European populations (Figures 3 and S3). Interestingly, it is also shared by Middle Eastern populations, including some Natufians (Figure 3). Y chromosome E1b1b haplotypes (though not M183 variants) were also common in Natufians (circa 11,000 BCE) and pre-pottery Neolithic male individuals from the Levant (circa 7,000 BCE), suggesting some affinity to North Africans [30].


we show that the European conquest led to a decline in the overall degree of Guanche autosomal ancestry and provide an estimate that modern Canary Islanders (as represented by two individuals on the HO panel) carry between 16% and 31% autosomal ancestry derived from the Guanches (Table S3).

--Genomic Analyses of Pre-European Conquest Human Remains from the Canary Islands Reveal Close Affinity to Modern North Africans


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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

How this fits into Canary islanders goes more into how and when the first settlers arrived in the islands. Currently it is theorized that the canary Islands were settled somewhere around 1000 BCE from the nearby African coast. The only reason this was in question, is because the currents in the area do not provide a direct route to the islands. But otherwise it shouldn't be a shock that this is the case. And therefore the DNA of the Canary island first settlers falls into generally the DNA of North Western Africa as part of "Berber" DNA even though Berber as a language is not a DNA lineage.

What do you know about the non-Guanche Canary Island settlers? I haven't seen an autosomal study on the first Settlers of the Island, how do you know they were Berber?
Historically in papers on the DNA of the Canaries scientists have often used "Berber" as a DNA signature. And this often goes for North Africa as well, which is why I mentioned that Berber is a language not a DNA signature.

For example:
quote:

First Inhabitants Of Canary Islands Were Berbers, Genetic Analysis Reveals

A team of Spanish and Portuguese researchers has carried out molecular genetic analysis of the Y chromosome (transmitted only by males) of the aboriginal population of the Canary Islands to determine their origin and the extent to which they have survived in the current population. The results suggest a North African origin for these paternal lineages which, unlike maternal lineages, have declined to the point of being practically replaced today by European lineages.

Researchers from the University of La Laguna (ULL), the Institute of Pathology and Molecular Immunology from the University of Porto (Portugal) and the Institute of Legal Medicine from the University of Santiago de Compostela (USC) have studied the Y chromosome from human dental remains from the Canary Islands, and have determined the origin and evolution of paternal lineages from the pre-Hispanic era to the present day. To date, only mitochondrial DNA has been studied, which merely reflects the evolution of maternal lineages.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091021115147.htm
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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

How this fits into Canary islanders goes more into how and when the first settlers arrived in the islands. Currently it is theorized that the canary Islands were settled somewhere around 1000 BCE from the nearby African coast. The only reason this was in question, is because the currents in the area do not provide a direct route to the islands. But otherwise it shouldn't be a shock that this is the case. And therefore the DNA of the Canary island first settlers falls into generally the DNA of North Western Africa as part of "Berber" DNA even though Berber as a language is not a DNA lineage.

What do you know about the non-Guanche Canary Island settlers? I haven't seen an autosomal study on the first Settlers of the Island, how do you know they were Berber?
Historically in papers on the DNA of the Canaries scientists have often used "Berber" as a DNA signature. And this often goes for North Africa as well, which is why I mentioned that Berber is a language not a DNA signature.

For example:
quote:

First Inhabitants Of Canary Islands Were Berbers, Genetic Analysis Reveals

A team of Spanish and Portuguese researchers has carried out molecular genetic analysis of the Y chromosome (transmitted only by males) of the aboriginal population of the Canary Islands to determine their origin and the extent to which they have survived in the current population. The results suggest a North African origin for these paternal lineages which, unlike maternal lineages, have declined to the point of being practically replaced today by European lineages.

Researchers from the University of La Laguna (ULL), the Institute of Pathology and Molecular Immunology from the University of Porto (Portugal) and the Institute of Legal Medicine from the University of Santiago de Compostela (USC) have studied the Y chromosome from human dental remains from the Canary Islands, and have determined the origin and evolution of paternal lineages from the pre-Hispanic era to the present day. To date, only mitochondrial DNA has been studied, which merely reflects the evolution of maternal lineages.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091021115147.htm

iight, Good looks, do you also have a link to the old discussion about the East African Origin of the Berber language? What was that suggestion primarily based on?
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

How this fits into Canary islanders goes more into how and when the first settlers arrived in the islands. Currently it is theorized that the canary Islands were settled somewhere around 1000 BCE from the nearby African coast. The only reason this was in question, is because the currents in the area do not provide a direct route to the islands. But otherwise it shouldn't be a shock that this is the case. And therefore the DNA of the Canary island first settlers falls into generally the DNA of North Western Africa as part of "Berber" DNA even though Berber as a language is not a DNA lineage.

What do you know about the non-Guanche Canary Island settlers? I haven't seen an autosomal study on the first Settlers of the Island, how do you know they were Berber?
Historically in papers on the DNA of the Canaries scientists have often used "Berber" as a DNA signature. And this often goes for North Africa as well, which is why I mentioned that Berber is a language not a DNA signature.

For example:
quote:

First Inhabitants Of Canary Islands Were Berbers, Genetic Analysis Reveals

A team of Spanish and Portuguese researchers has carried out molecular genetic analysis of the Y chromosome (transmitted only by males) of the aboriginal population of the Canary Islands to determine their origin and the extent to which they have survived in the current population. The results suggest a North African origin for these paternal lineages which, unlike maternal lineages, have declined to the point of being practically replaced today by European lineages.

Researchers from the University of La Laguna (ULL), the Institute of Pathology and Molecular Immunology from the University of Porto (Portugal) and the Institute of Legal Medicine from the University of Santiago de Compostela (USC) have studied the Y chromosome from human dental remains from the Canary Islands, and have determined the origin and evolution of paternal lineages from the pre-Hispanic era to the present day. To date, only mitochondrial DNA has been studied, which merely reflects the evolution of maternal lineages.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091021115147.htm

iight, Good looks, do you also have a link to the old discussion about the East African Origin of the Berber language? What was that suggestion primarily based on?
You have been on this forum how long?

Here is one:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008823

And there are many others.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000599;p=12

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
You have been on this forum how long?

Here is one:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008823

And there are many others.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000599;p=12

for like a year and a half or sum'n... basically after most of the good shit was talked about and "serious" posters "left."
...good looks

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

You have been on this forum how long?

Here is one:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008823

And there are many others.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000599;p=12 [/QB]

these threads don't discuss the oiigin of a language
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Doug M
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Some older better examples:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003476;p=1

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=005309;p=6

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004643;p=1

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008865;p=1

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the lioness,
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It's not really concise to say look at all these multi-page threads instead of quoting a specific quote that supports the claim Berber language originates in East Africa

I have read some texts on this. The origin of Berber language is simply unknown. No one has proven it originated in a specific region.

As far as DNA goes the one haplogroup that virtually unique to many berber speakers is E-M81
E-M81 and it's possible ancestor M78 are common on the Canary Islands as well as J1 and other groups mentioned in the article


quote:

The three males from whom haplogroup-defining Y chromosome SNPs were retrieved carried the E1b1b1b1a1 (E-M183) haplotype (a major sub-clade of the haplogroup E1b1b1b1, defined by the derived M81 marker), which is again consistent with previous analyses of ancient Guanches [8]. This haplogroup is ubiquitous across modern North African populations and particularly common in Berber-speaking populations of North Africa....


The Guanches analyzed here carried mitochondrial lineages such as J1c3, H2a, U6b, L3b1a,




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Clyde Winters
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There is no evidence that the Berbers came from East Africa or speak an East African language

The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.

Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.

Egyptian and Berber languages do not share affinity. Examine this comparison of Berber and Egyptian by Obenga.


 -

 -


 -


There is no cognation between Berber and Egyptian languages.

There is also no cultural evidence collected that unite the Berbers and Egyptians. The Berbers only recently came to Siwan as discussed earlier.

I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.
Berber Languages
quote:




http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html


Introduction

The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.

Consonants

Berber consonants include:

glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation;
implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out;
geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.

Grammar

Noun phrase

Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.

Verb phrase

Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.

Vocabulary

Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).


The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.


..  -

.
Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.
The vocabulary among the Berbers is often disimilar.The early work on proto-Berber was based on Tuareg or Tamasheq.

Construction of contemporary Berber is based on all the Berber languages. It is difficult to make claims Kabyle and Tamazight pre-history because much of the patoral-agricultural terms are based on Latin .

quote:
  • Table 2. Latin loans into Berber, Kabyl examples
    Kabyle Gloss Source
    fuṛaṛ février [February] Latin februaris
    yebrir avril [April] Latin aprilis
    maggu mai [May] Latin maius (mensis), with -i- > gg also attested in
    Arabic loanwords
    tubeṛ octobre [October] Latin october
    buğamber décembre, période de grand froid
    [December, period of cold]
    Latin december, although Kabyle has b- instead of
    dafalku
    faucon [hawk] Latin falco
    tagerfa corbeau [crow] Latin corvus. Dallet (1982: 272) assumes it is from
    Latin but possibly also be Arabic ġurba Ghadames
    ugerf, tugerft
    errigla règle (pour tracer) [(drawing) rule], also
    tarigla, montant vertical [vertical beam
    of weaving loom]
    Latin regula
    tberna taverne, cabaret [inn, pub] Latin taberna

    Table 3. Latin loans in Kabyle relating to ox-ploughing

    Kabyle Gloss Source
    atmun timon (de la charrue) [plow beam] Latin timonem
    iger champ labouré et ensemencé [plowed and sown field] Latin ager
    ikerrez labourer [to plough] Latin carrus but of Gaulish origin
    tayerza labour [ploughed field] Perhaps Latin aro, or French herser < Latin herpic-. Given





Roger Blench noted that:

quote:


Older Berber varieties were effectively eliminated through relexification, the gradual replacement of lexical and grammatical structures. It might be assumed that montane agricultural communities would not be subject to the same pressures, but their subsistence systems were also premised on borrowed Roman technology, the plough and orchard cultivation. They adopted the media lengua before transferring to mountainous areas.

http://www.rogerblench.info/Archaeology/Africa/Berber%20prehistory%202012.pdf

.
 -

 -

You can also consult Note di geografia linguistica berbera more ,by Vermondo Brugnatelli :
http://unimib.academia.edu/VermondoBrugnatelli/Papers/1098593/Note_di_geografia_linguistica_berbera


.

.


 -

 -


Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.

This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.

This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Elite Diasporan
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@Clyde Winters

Lets stay on topic please... Discussions about Afro-Asiatic not being a language belongs in the Deshret section.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
@Elmaestro

If you study Moorish history you would know that European populations(both slaves and expelled Muslims from Iberia/Sicily) absorbed most of the Northwest African population and is where the European admixture comes from. Northwest Africa prior to the Muslim expulsion from Europe was sparsely populated.

This is similar to Bantu people absorbing the indigenous population of Central and Southern Africa. Northwest Africa being sparsely populated made it easy for population replacement.

To give you an example Christian renegades (Spanish, Italian, French, Albanian, etc. who would eventually convert to Islam) and the medieval slave trade had a major impact on places like Tlemcen, Oran, Bejaia (Bougie - Kabyle central) and especially Alger. Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, something like 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European-Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries.

This is just speaking for Northwest Africa BUT the Canary Islands WERE apart of the Berber/Moorish influence and did see migrations from Europe.

I'm still surprised with the significant L lineages.

@Capra WOW! Nubian!? Gonna have to give this a deeper read through.

Old reference,

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008327;p=21#001005

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
@Clyde Winters

Lets stay on topic please... Discussions about Afro-Asiatic not being a language belongs in the Deshret section.

quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

How this fits into Canary islanders goes more into how and when the first settlers arrived in the islands. Currently it is theorized that the canary Islands were settled somewhere around 1000 BCE from the nearby African coast. The only reason this was in question, is because the currents in the area do not provide a direct route to the islands. But otherwise it shouldn't be a shock that this is the case. And therefore the DNA of the Canary island first settlers falls into generally the DNA of North Western Africa as part of "Berber" DNA even though Berber as a language is not a DNA lineage.

What do you know about the non-Guanche Canary Island settlers? I haven't seen an autosomal study on the first Settlers of the Island, how do you know they were Berber?
Historically in papers on the DNA of the Canaries scientists have often used "Berber" as a DNA signature. And this often goes for North Africa as well, which is why I mentioned that Berber is a language not a DNA signature.

For example:
quote:

First Inhabitants Of Canary Islands Were Berbers, Genetic Analysis Reveals

A team of Spanish and Portuguese researchers has carried out molecular genetic analysis of the Y chromosome (transmitted only by males) of the aboriginal population of the Canary Islands to determine their origin and the extent to which they have survived in the current population. The results suggest a North African origin for these paternal lineages which, unlike maternal lineages, have declined to the point of being practically replaced today by European lineages.

Researchers from the University of La Laguna (ULL), the Institute of Pathology and Molecular Immunology from the University of Porto (Portugal) and the Institute of Legal Medicine from the University of Santiago de Compostela (USC) have studied the Y chromosome from human dental remains from the Canary Islands, and have determined the origin and evolution of paternal lineages from the pre-Hispanic era to the present day. To date, only mitochondrial DNA has been studied, which merely reflects the evolution of maternal lineages.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091021115147.htm

iight, Good looks, do you also have a link to the old discussion about the East African Origin of the Berber language? What was that suggestion primarily based on?
My comment was on the possible East African origin for Berber language, regarding the question posed by Elmaestro. As a result, my comment was on topic.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Elite Diasporan
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@Clyde Winters

quote:
There is no evidence that the Berbers came from East Africa or speak an East African language

The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.

Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.

Egyptian and Berber languages do not share affinity. Examine this comparison of Berber and Egyptian by Obenga.

Can we please not do this...
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the questioner
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@Clyde Winters

what makes it Asiatic is the gender distinction between male and female within the language.

African languages do not distinguish between male and female unless they had contact with Asiatics.

--------------------
Questions expose liars

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Elmaestro
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anywho I'm dumping this here, since I have no reason to sit on it. in simple terms, Its a low coverage dataset biased towards African variation... some people might find some of these distributions interesting. new Guanche populations included... They're moreless equivalent to how they're described in the study..To reiterate. The SSA admixture is best fitted with east African Bantu populations and occasionally nilotes... unlike most North africans, No additional West African signals, and the lack of 600ya pemba Tanzanian signals edges me to believe that the Guanche folks probably had cushitic-like or E.AfricanHG SSA Affinity... They're definitely more "Eurasian" than other North Africans.

K7 is the best statistically, click to expand.
 -

Here's a raw searchable PDF for easy viewing by every K.

Might convince a friend to upload samples to gedmatch if anyone here cares about it.

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Elite Diasporan
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
anywho I'm dumping this here, since I have no reason to sit on it. in simple terms, Its a low coverage dataset biased towards African variation... some people might find some of these distributions interesting. new Guanche populations included... They're moreless equivalent to how they're described in the study..To reiterate. The SSA admixture is best fitted with east African Bantu populations and occasionally nilotes... unlike most North africans, No additional West African signals, and the lack of 600ya pemba Tanzanian signals edges me to believe that the Guanche folks probably had cushitic-like or E.AfricanHG SSA Affinity... They're definitely more "Eurasian" than other North Africans.

K7 is the best statistically, click to expand.
 -

Here's a raw searchable PDF for easy viewing by every K.

Might convince a friend to upload samples to gedmatch if anyone here cares about it.

[Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]

Anyways I downloaded image.

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Ish Gebor
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CANARY ISLANDERS in the "New World"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=012545;p=1#000001

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
@Clyde Winters

what makes it Asiatic is the gender distinction between male and female within the language.

African languages do not distinguish between male and female unless they had contact with Asiatics.

Can you give examples? (In a new thread).
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
You have been on this forum how long?

Here is one:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008823

And there are many others.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000599;p=12

for like a year and a half or sum'n... basically after most of the good shit was talked about and "serious" posters "left."
...good looks

CARTA: The Origin of Us — Christopher Ehret: Relationships of Ancient African Languages

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmr0AE1Qyws

Rogerblench,

http://rogerblench.info/Language/Afroasiatic/General/AALIST.pdf


Issues in the Historical Phonology Issues in the Historical Phonology of Chadic Languages of Chadic Languages H. Ekkehard Wolff Chair: African Languages & Linguistics Leipzig University
http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/conference/08_springschool/pdf/course_materials/Wolff_Historical_Phonology.pdf

Posts: 18895 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Linda Fahr
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Oh...please...ignorance can negatively affect your cognitive abilities.

Mr.Clyde Winters is right! The Guanches were descents of the Vandals, which migrated South and established themselves in the Canary Islands with the help of the "Dogons". Actually, by the time the invasion of Canary Island by the Spaniards, the majority of Guanches were the result of interbreed with the Subsaharans natives living in the Canary Island long before the arrival of the Guanches, as we can see in the mixed race afro hair of many old mummies found in the region.

In fact, the recent sculptures erected in the Tenerife Candelaria by the Spanish, of the nine conquered tribal Guanches leaders, depicting them nude and dressed with prehistoric clothes, is one more European history corruption to continuous to occupy African territories, by given the impression that the Guanches were original African natives of the Canary Islands. What is not true! The Guanches were not that primitive, when they were conquered, captured and slaved by the Spaniards, as they want you to believe.

We can see what the Guanches exactly looked like, in the two paintings of them, made by the Spanish court painter, of the submission of the Guanches to spaniard invader and conqueror Alonso Fernandez de Lugo in the Canary Islands, and when the captured Guanches nine tribal leaders were taken to the presence of King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella in Spain by Alonso Fernandez de Lugo, the same man which invaded Canary Islands and conquered them. In both paintings they are wearing the same garments they wore when they invaded Iberian Peninsula, and North Africa, which were a brown knee high upper garment over short trousers below the knee cap, and sandals. The same garments they wore when they were Germanic barbarians invaders of Rome. Now...their trousers of course was a fashion influenced by the Huns, which they battled in Europe before their invasion of Iberia Peninsula, North Africa, and then Canary Islands, to escape prosecution and death by the Byzantines which kicked them out of their invaded territories...

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---lnnnnn*

Posts: 27 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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