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Author Topic: is this coin a portrait of King Juba or Caesar Augustus
the questioner
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On the surface, it may seem like a dumb question until you see images from Caesar Augustus coins that resemble this image.

Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.

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 -

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the lioness,
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look up bronze bust Juba II
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
look up bronze bust Juba II

how do we know that is his bust? i see no name on it

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the lioness,
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 -
JUBA I
the father of Juba II
nose and profile looking quite European. Is it his hair or a hat? that is looking possibly African


 -
JUBA II

looks like many of the berbers who are mixed, hair European, lips and flare of nostril with some African tendency, straight forehead somewhat European looking, middle of nose has a not , overall mixed looking

His partial African qualities here may have been removed - Romaninized when rendered as a coin - speculation

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -
JUBA I
the father of Juba II


 -
JUBA II

looks like many of the berbers who are mixed, hair European, lips and flare of nostril with some African tendency, strait forehead somewhat European looking

His partial African qualities here may have been removed - Romaninized when rendered as a coin - speculation

juba I looks nothing like juba II

the juba I coin is carrying the scepter of zeus. how do we know that is not zeus?
 -

king juba coin  -

roman coin
 -

Mauritanians during the time of the Romans were African

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.

So show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time.
No that does not make sense to have his image on the coin but somebody else name

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.

So show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time.
No that does not make sense to have his image on the coin but somebody else name

the coin is roman
that is why it makes sense

Africans did not make coins during this time period

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

Mauritanians during the time of the Romans were African

how do you know some were not mixed with Romans, Greeks or Phoenicians?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the questioner:


Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.

So there is some precedent to you theory show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time.
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the questioner
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 -

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His features are Greek/European not African

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the questioner:


Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.

So there is some precedent to you theory show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time.
king juba was the most loyal king to the roman empire

show me another vassal that has its own coins that was more loyal

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

Mauritanians during the time of the Romans were African

how do you know some were not mixed with Romans, Greeks or Phoenicians?
because they were black, woolly haired, and plaited their hair according to the ancient Greeks and Romans

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
 -

 -

His features are Greek/European not African

^ you posted a Greek statue Charioteer of Delphi
That is not what we are dealing with


 -
^ we are dealing with this JUBA II bust and the features do not match that Greek statue, they are semi African looking

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
 -

 -

His features are Greek/European not African

^ you posted a Greek statue Charioteer of Delphi
That is not what we are dealing with


 -
^ we are dealing with this JUBA II bust and the features do not match that Greek statue, they are semi African looking

you missed my point

We dont know for a fact if that bust is king juba or not

his fashion, features and the style of art work is not african

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

Mauritanians during the time of the Romans were African

how do you know some were not mixed with Romans, Greeks or Phoenicians?
because they were black, woolly haired, and plaited their hair according to the ancient Greeks and Romans
 -

you mean plaited hair like this?

Also you will have to provide quotes to back what you claim about Mauretanians.
It was a Roman province at the time.
There was mixing going on as is typical with berbers
Juba II married a Greek Ptolemaic princess Cleopatra Selene II.

Greeks had setteled in the region, Romans and Phoenicians so if Juba II was part African and part non-African if would not be surprising

At the same time we dont know if there were intermarriage differences between rank and file Mauretanians and the royals, powerful Mauretanins probably had more access to the Roman women than the average Mauretanian

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
you missed my point

We dont know for a fact if that bust is king juba or not

his fashion, features and the style of art work is not african [/QB]

you missed my point, his features could easily be semi-African, yet you are saying they are not

the world is not all black and white you know, people do mix

If you can't see the wideness of his nose in comparison to the narrowness of the nose of the Apollo sculpture I can't help you.
Additionally there are Egyptians statues with narrow noses like that

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -


quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
you missed my point

We dont know for a fact if that bust is king juba or not

his fashion, features and the style of art work is not african

you missed my point, his features could easily be semi-African, yet you are saying they are not

the world is not all black and white you know, people do mix

If you can't see the wideness of his nose in comparison to the narrowness of the nose of the Apollo sculpture I can't help you.
Additionally there are Egyptians statues with narrow noses like that [/QB]

again you missed my point again

i appreciate you responding and answering my question as best way you can

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the lioness,
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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

How do you know the man on the left is Caesar Augustus and the man on the right is king juba II?

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

Mauritanians during the time of the Romans were African

how do you know some were not mixed with Romans, Greeks or Phoenicians?
because they were black, woolly haired, and plaited their hair according to the ancient Greeks and Romans
 -

you mean plaited hair like this?

Also you will have to provide quotes to back what you claim about Mauretanians.
It was a Roman province at the time.
There was mixing going on as is typical with berbers
Juba II married a Greek Ptolemaic princess Cleopatra Selene II.

Greeks had setteled in the region, Romans and Phoenicians so if Juba II was part African and part non-African if would not be surprising

At the same time we dont know if there were intermarriage differences between rank and file Mauretanians and the royals, powerful Mauretanins probably had more access to the Roman women than the average Mauretanian

"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ...
By J. C. Nott pg 95

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.

It doesn't make sense because you have not produced any example of a coin that has a king or emperors name on it but the head of someone else on the same side.


quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


 -


How do you know this is Caesar Augustus and not a god?
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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.

It doesn't make sense because you have not produced any example of a coin that has a king or emperors name on it but the head of someone else on the same side.


quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


 -


How do you know this is Caesar Augustus and not a god?

^^^ what god looks like that?

During the reign of Caesar Augustus, Rome was the only people making coins in the Mediterranean at that time.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -

"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ...
By J. C. Nott pg 95 [/QB]

quote:
^^^ what god looks like that?


yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?

Ask somebody anonymous about it

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the lioness,
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Who was Juba II's mother?
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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -

"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ...
By J. C. Nott pg 95

quote:
^^^ what god looks like that?


yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?

Ask somebody anonymous about it [/QB]

anonymous writer was Steinbuchel

 -

 -

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Lion
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Joke of the day: European nose.
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:


Caesar Augustus reigned supreme over the Mediterranean, so it would make sense for him to put his image on every coin in the empire.

So show us the name of a vassal on a coin and at the same time the identified image of Caesar Augustus on the coin at the same time.
No that does not make sense to have his image on the coin but somebody else name

the coin is roman
that is why it makes sense

Africans did not make coins during this time period

True, important is to understand the history and meaning of coins.
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Lion:
Joke of the day: European nose.

Greetings,

It's someone with limited world knowledge.

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the questioner
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 -
Zeus chasing a fleeing maiden. Detail of a red-figure lekythos decorated by a Boeotian vase painter (424 BC, Archaeological Museum of Thebes)

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -

"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ...
By J. C. Nott pg 95

quote:
^^^ what god looks like that?


yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?

Ask somebody anonymous about it

anonymous writer was Steinbuchel

 -


You have a good similarity here

Still the problem I have is here has to be a precedent of a head, not a figure a head, of a god and the name of an emperor on the same side of the coin

You have 1,500 year of Roman history to find a case of this

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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -

"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ...
By J. C. Nott pg 95

quote:
^^^ what god looks like that?


yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?

Ask somebody anonymous about it

anonymous writer was Steinbuchel

 -


You have a good similarity here

Still the problem I have is here has to be a precedent of a head, not a figure a head, of a god and the name of an emperor on the same side of the coin

You have 1,500 year of Roman history to find a case of this

another example
Gold stater of Vercingetorix
 -
this is actually a portrait of Apollo not Vercingetorix

Vercingetorix was a Gaul and therefore should have a beard

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 -

this is more Gaul looking

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -

"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ...
By J. C. Nott pg 95

quote:
^^^ what god looks like that?


yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?

Ask somebody anonymous about it

anonymous writer was Steinbuchel

 -


You have a good similarity here

Still the problem I have is here has to be a precedent of a head, not a figure a head, of a god and the name of an emperor on the same side of the coin

You have 1,500 year of Roman history to find a case of this

another example
Gold stater of Vercingetorix
 -
this is actually a portrait of Apollo not Vercingetorix

Vercingetorix was a Gaul and therefore should have a beard

where is your primary source evidence all Gaul men had beards?
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the questioner
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -

"being the type of a silver coin which bears the Roman inscription " Juba Rex." Still, an anonymous archaeologist, (Steinbuchel, ) suggests, that this effigy, with its peculiar African headdress, might represent an African Jupiter, rather than a king, since his features are somewhat ideal and the scepter on the shoulder of the bust is an attribution of Jupiter, or of Juno, exceptionally given to kings." Indigenous Races of the Earth; or new chapters of ethnological inquiry ...
By J. C. Nott pg 95

quote:
^^^ what god looks like that?


yes, are we to believe bearded man with an African looking headdress looks like Jupiter solely due to a scepter of some kind?

Ask somebody anonymous about it

anonymous writer was Steinbuchel

 -


You have a good similarity here

Still the problem I have is here has to be a precedent of a head, not a figure a head, of a god and the name of an emperor on the same side of the coin

You have 1,500 year of Roman history to find a case of this

another example
Gold stater of Vercingetorix
 -
this is actually a portrait of Apollo not Vercingetorix

Vercingetorix was a Gaul and therefore should have a beard

where is your primary source evidence all Gaul men had beards?
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Julius Caesar triumph coin depicting a captured Gaul with beard and Venus

Gauls were stereotypical depicted with beards and mustaches before roman colonization

the so called "dying Gaul" used to be called the "dying Gladiator"

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 -

The map here shows Mauretania and next door Numidia

 -
Coin of Juba I King of Numidia and father of Juba II

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Portrait of Juba I, king of Numidia (c. 85 BC-46 BC). Marble, Roman artwork, ca. Christian Era. From Cherchell (ancient Cæsarea), Algeria.

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Lusius Quietus Commanding the Moorish Cavalry

Lusius Quietus was a Roman general and governor of Judaea in 117 AD. He was the principal commander against the Jewish rebellion known as the Kitos War ("Kitos" is a later corruption of "Quietus"). As both a general and a highly acclaimed commander, he was notably one of the most accomplished Berber statesmen in ancient Roman history.

______________________________


Show us some Numidian kings on coins for context

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
 -

this is more Gaul looking

How do you know that is a Gaul or Vercingetorix?


the famous dying Gual sculpture


 -

 -
No beard

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
where is your primary source evidence all Gaul men at any age had beards?

 -


Coin of Caesar, showing a Gallic captive
Date
ca. 50 BCE
London, British Museum
Gaul, Roman Republic

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 -

Juba II was a berber. He may have had a non-African mother and his wife was Greek.
His features look semi-African here. His appearance on coins might be stylized to make him look more Roman.
This sculpture is a much more skilled piece if art than the coins, so is potentially more accurate

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -
this is actually a portrait of Apollo


prove it's Apollo
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 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -
this is actually a portrait of Apollo


prove it's Apollo
https://books.google.com/books?id=GhpNc1YU6wsC&pg=PT55&dq=gold+stater+Vercingetorix+apollo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjo5aK476jXAhWIwYMKHd5bBcUQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=gold%20stater%20Verc ingetorix%20apollo&f=false
Vercingetorix was Gaulish nobility and thus should have a mustache
"the nobles shave their cheeks, but they let the moustache grow until it covers the mouth. Consequently, when they are eating, their moustaches become entangled in the food, and when they are drinking, the beverage passes, as it were, through a kind of a strainer."
diodorus siculus book v, 28

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -
this is actually a portrait of Apollo


prove it's Apollo
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -
this is actually a portrait of Apollo


prove it's Apollo
it is Apollo Belenus to be exact

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belenus

on the reverse is a depiction of a horse which is sacred to this god
 -
GAUL, Northeast. Ambiani. 2nd century BC. AV Quarter Stater (14mm, 2.03 g, 10h). Somme Valley – Trumpet Type, Class Ib. Celticized head of Apollo right / Celticized horse right; above figure seated right, blowing trumpet; sickle-shaped ornament to right; below, figure seated(?) facing, holding up both arms and extending fingers to belly of horse. Scheers Series 3, Class III, var. b, pl. II, 32; Sills dies 4/5, pl. 7, 209; Depeyrot, NC VII, 142B; D&T 24; de la Tour – (Muret 10255); Flesche –. EF, struck with worn obverse die. Extremely rare, only six noted by Sills, including the five noted by Depeyrot.

 - Celtic Coinage, Middle Danube. Uncertain tribe. Silver Tetradrachm (12.7g) struck late 2nd-early 1st Century BC. Variant of the Kroisbach/Reiterstumpf type. Celticized head of Apollo left with a low, jutting brow and hair formed of heavy reversed 'S'-shaped curls. Reverse: Celtic rider, showing only torso and above, with plaited curving locks, on horseback left; horse with a clef-shaped ear; twisting groundline below terminating in torque at each end.

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -
this is actually a portrait of Apollo


prove it's Apollo

it is Apollo Belenus to be exact


I see you're making it up as you go along

prove this is Belenus

I hold up a banana, you say it's a lemon
I say prove it, y
you say "it's yellow isn't it, that is a fact"

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

 -
this is actually a portrait of Apollo


prove it's Apollo

it is Apollo Belenus to be exact


I see you're making it up as you go along

prove this is Belenus

I hold up a banana, you say it's a lemon
I say prove it, y
you say "it's yellow isn't it, that is a fact"

i just proved it

Belenus is identified with Apollo

pay attention next time

i say "a banana is not round so a lemon could not be a banana"

i say "this is not a Gaulish noble because the man on the coin has no mustache"

just because you put the lemon label on a banana does not mean that the banana is a lemon

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 -

^^^^
if you believe this is not apollo belenus then who is it?

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
 -

^^^^
if you believe this is not apollo belenus then who is it?

 -

The above gold coin at top could be a younger depiction of Vercingetorix or it could be a generic version of of a man supposed to be Vercingetorix but made without knolwedge of how Vercingetorix.

You said "his is actually a portrait of Apollo" then you updated to
"Apollo Belenus "
You don't know that so you shouldn't be stating it as fact. There's a similar issue going on now with Clyde.

Now if the coin had that had only the head and the text said Vercingetorix on the back with a picture of a horse or some other thing then one might speculate maybe it was not Vercingetorix and that still doesn't prove it is Belenus.
That is a logic flaw, If A is not equal to B that does not mean it's equal to C. It could be D or E or F etc.

But it is on the same side as the head and that is just like a caption describing the head.
You have yet to show any precedent of a coin that has the name of a ruler on the same side as a head that is not of the ruler.


 -

Is this a good resemblance of Vercingetorix. Does it have is features or is it an imagined depiction?
We don't know. It was not the age of photography.
But wait a minute, that might not even be Vercingetorix. His name is not even on it, front or back!!!


 -

Is this Zeus? Not likely because it has Juba;s name on it.

Could a human like Juba look like Zeus but not be Zeus?
Yes

Could a human like Vercingetorix look like Belenus?

The depictions of these completely fictional gods is not of oddball looking people. They are often depicted as ordinary looking, like ordinary humans of whom there are millions of of people similar looking.

Look at illustrations of Clark Kent. There are millions of people that look similar but they are not Superman


 -

Instead of trying to force Caesar Augustus or a god onto this it is wiser to say this might, keyword "might" not be an accurate depiction of Juba II but instead maybe, keyword "maybe" imagined or idealized or made to look like a generic roman.

At the same time Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans had settled in the region for a several hundreds years and he could very well have been part African and part non-African

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example 2
 -
"But it is on the same side as the head and that is just like a caption describing the head." - the lioness
So i guess Faustus Cornelius Sulla is a woman. (if we go by your logic) [Roll Eyes]

"The above gold coin at top could be a younger depiction of Vercingetorix" - the lioness
Vercingetorix was 30 years old when he came to power and the Gaulish nobility (like i have just proved) had mustaches

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quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:
[QB] example 2
 -
"But it is on the same side as the head and that is just like a caption describing the head." - the lioness
So i guess Faustus Cornelius Sulla is a woman. (if we go by your logic) [Roll Eyes]


Now you are actually doing some work to support your claims.
But you are using this is exactly the wrong way. 99% of coins that have a head on them and a name, the name is of the person shown.
So instead just pointing that out that maybe a depiction in rare instances is not of the person named you do a 360 and say that instead of raising uncertainty it does the opposite and verifies that the coin is yet another specific person. Do you understand what I'm telling you?
You have a case here of a female god and I assume the numismatists are right that it's Diana due to how she's dressed or the fact that there are no female emperors.

But try to find a coin of a male head that is not a depiction of a king or emperor who has his name on the same side and that is a much bigger problem.
You say that a coin is Belenus and your argument is that it's Belenus because it's not Vercingetorix.
Do you see the flaw of logic here? You suggesting an image may not be a certain person does not prove that is some other specific person (or god)
And the males are a problem because male gods are depicted as looking exactly like average humans.


quote:
Originally posted by the questioner:

Vercingetorix was 30 years old when he came to power and the Gaulish nobility (like i have just proved) had mustaches

You frist claimed " Vercingetorix was a Gaul and therefore should have a beard"

Now you have changed to mustaches and still have no source all, keyword "all" Gauls had mustaches.

People like to say Egyptians had shaved heads. Then you see royal mummies with hair and we see there are exceptions

You showed a coin you say is Vercingetorix yet since that coin has no name on it you can't even be certain it's Vercingetorix


 -

What is a red herring?

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.

So we are off on a tangent here talking about whether or not all Gaul men had mustaches ( a couple of days ago beards) and the issue here is Juba II where him having a beard or not is completely irrelevant.
A further problem is hypothesizing that someone with writing below him saying Juba II is another human ruler, Caesar - not a god

So let's remove the being a god possibility form these Juba II issue because you are not even trying to prove it's a god like Apollo or Jupiter but another human.

While one could imagine a male ruler having his head on one side of a coin an image of him and on the back a god, a higher being he would want to associate himself with it is harder to imagine him putting a different human ruler on the back who is on his same level.

You suggest Caesar Augutus issued coins with his on face on them but underneath on the same side of the coin the name of a vassal ruler of the empire

So let's stop talking about mustaches and focus the issue better.

Show us any coin of the Roman empire, 1,500 years where the head of an emperor is depicted but under that head the name of a vassal ruler.

It doesn't make sense. You have a tradition of emperors proudly having their head and name on a coin. Do you think they are going to want their head to be on a coin and somebody else's name on it?

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first you say "But it is on the same side as the head and that is just like a caption describing the head" the lioness

then you say "But try to find a coin of a male head that is not a depiction of a king or emperor who has his name on the same side and that is a much bigger problem."- the lioness

you keep pushing the goal back because you desperately want to win the debate

where is your evidence to prove those images are really juba I and II?

example 3
 -

Caesar must be the god mars

the main point is that we can't prove that king juba I or II and Vercingetorix looked like that

juba I or II could be Caesar Augustus or Hercules or zeus/jupiter

Vercingetorix should have a mustache just like Diodorus Siculus described the Gaulish nobles

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